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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Mattdaviesfsic (talk | contribs) at 22:57, 28 December 2023 (→It is core doctrine that Jesus is God incarnate: Hatting tangential thread (feel free to rv if you feel so) (DiscussionCloser v.1.7.3)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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	This article appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 25, 2013.
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This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. Section sizes Section size for Jesus (52 sections) Section name Byte count Section total (Top) 17,699 17,699 Name 1,746 3,808 Jesus Christ 2,062 2,062 Life and teachings in the New Testament 156 82,045 Canonical gospels 2,990 13,860 Authorship, date, and reliability 4,772 4,772 Comparative structure and content 6,098 6,098 Genealogy and nativity 8,424 8,424 Early life, family, and profession 5,870 5,870 Baptism and temptation 4,155 4,155 Public ministry 4,140 23,197 Disciples and followers 2,488 2,488 Teachings and miracles 13,392 13,392 Proclamation as Christ and Transfiguration 3,177 3,177 Passion Week 356 20,850 Activities in Jerusalem 4,413 4,413 Last Supper 4,447 4,447 Agony in the Garden, betrayal, and arrest 2,053 2,053 Trials by the Sanhedrin, Herod, and Pilate 6,155 6,155 Crucifixion and entombment 3,426 3,426 Resurrection and ascension 5,533 5,533 Early Christianity 5,377 5,377 Historical views 3,723 61,110 Judea and Galilee in the 1st century 4,526 4,526 Sources 8,396 8,396 Chronology 7,219 7,219 Historicity of events 1,248 21,654 Family 8,389 8,389 Baptism 1,367 1,367 Ministry in Galilee 4,883 4,883 Role 2,298 2,298 Passover and crucifixion in Jerusalem 2,663 2,663 After crucifixion 806 806 Portraits of Jesus 3,384 3,384 Language, ethnicity, and appearance 8,611 8,611 Christ myth theory 3,597 3,597 Religious perspectives 3,611 47,737 Christianity 7,324 7,324 Judaism's view 6,428 6,428 Manichaeism 2,098 2,098 Islam 14,158 14,603 Ahmadiyya 445 445 Druze 2,007 2,007 Baháʼí Faith 4,186 4,186 Other 7,480 7,480 Artistic depictions 8,016 8,016 Associated relics 5,790 5,790 See also 650 650 Notes 42 42 References 42 24,619 Sources 24,577 24,577 External links 2,296 2,296 Total 259,189 259,189 This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: "Topics that spark Misplaced Pages 'edit wars' revealed". BBC News. 18 July 2013. Retrieved 18 July 2013. Caitlin Dewey (6 November 2015). "Demon cats, helicopter escapes and crayon colours: The most fascinating Misplaced Pages articles you haven't read". National Post. Retrieved 10 November 2015. Omer Benkajob (27 April 2017). "Why Jimmy Wales' WikiTribune Won't Save the News". Haaretz. Retrieved 30 April 2017. Richard Cooke (17 February 2020). "Misplaced Pages Is the Last Best Place on the Internet". Wired. Retrieved 27 February 2020. Caitlin Dewey (5 November 2015). "The most fascinating Misplaced Pages articles you haven't read". The Washington Post. Retrieved 8 March 2023.

Frequently asked questions

This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Misplaced Pages?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

• Based on this Misplaced Pages search the phrase is widely used in Misplaced Pages.
• The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
• The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

• Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
• Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Misplaced Pages guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Misplaced Pages guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

• Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
• Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
• It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally. For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine, Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."
• Finally, Misplaced Pages policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

• Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
• A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
• More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?

Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.

Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?

The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

References

1. R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
2. Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
3. Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
4. Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

It is core doctrine that Jesus is God incarnate

Jesus Christ, arrested

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

You have an error and it's so bland. We KNOW he was the Son of God, and the error is that he was arrested first by Jewish Soldiers, then turned over to Roman Authorities after the Last Supper. He was put before Herod, and then back to the Roman to Pontius Pilot, where he was scurged, his robe was hangled over, and then a crown of thorns was placed on his head. Pontius Pilot then gave the Jews a choice after "washing his hands", two were put before the people. The Jews insisted upon Jesus Christ to be cruxcified. Pontis Pilot didn't put Jesus Christ to death at the main venue, It's the Jews who more than once insited in Cruxifiction. Jesus Christ forgave them dying on the cross. 2600:6C5D:B7F:278D:B93B:7157:E988:52ED (talk) 18:52, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

As an encyclopedia, we don’t “know” anything about details from 2,000 years ago, and certainly about the existence of gods. Much of it is apocryphal. What has been included is cited to a former professor of religion. You are welcome to discuss additional reliable sources WP:RS. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:09, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

You know because Rome took accurate records. You know there is a continuity and it is always will be anno domini. B.C. and A.D.(Before Christ, and after Christ.) You know because if you are human you are breathing in and out, you exist because the Holy Bible tells you God made human beings. Someone didn't just pull you out of a hat. People can't make birds, bees,flowers, and trees. They can mess around, but they can't make them. God did that. BELIEVE... 2600:6C5D:B7F:278D:2DDA:5D6D:1E39:CEA1 (talk) 22:02, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

Birth date

Most people believe Misplaced Pages Talk is just for angry people wanting to change something, but it's also just general discussion on the topic.

Did you know that no one actually knows the day Jesus was born? December 25th was decided in the year 336 because of the winter solstice, and pagans having a holiday the same day, to help them with conversion. IEditPolitics (talk) 01:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the post. Actually talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article, and not for general discussion of the topic. While the above info is interesting im not sure it's especially relevant to improving our article on Jesus. Do you have in mind an edit that you'd like made to the article text? -- Euryalus (talk) 01:41, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Specificslly where it says december 25th and january 7th and how his birthday is celebrated then. I cant write it, but maybe put :December 25th was a date decided in the year 336 by (not sure who) to coincide with the winter solstice and the pagans having a holiday on the same day." IEditPolitics (talk) 17:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Over-detailed for the lead. In the Chronology section we state that the year of his birth is not precisely known, but don't explicitly clarify that the time of year is also unknown. Probably room for improvement there. VQuakr (talk) 18:50, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Israeli and Palestinian by subcategories

I noticed that since Jesus is listed under the category People from Bethlehem, he's technically listed under People from the State of Palestine, Palestinian people, and under Arab people. This is factually incorrect, as Jesus was not an Arab- nor was he from the State of Palestine. He is also apparently listed as an Israeli due to being a part of category People from Nazareth- which he was not.

I suggest that the two categories (and maybe a fair bit of other towns in the region) be given the splits Category:Palestinians from Bethlehem and Category:Israelis from Nazareth, and the parent categories that refer to Israel and Palestine be removed from the broader "People from Bethlehem/Nazareth" categories. Is there any objections to me doing this? HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 06:41, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

@HadesTTW There may very well be, the topic being what it is. Have you considered starting a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Cannot comment on the technical category stuff here, but OP is definitely right that the two subcats are just factually incorrect and unsupported in the article body.--SinoDevonian (talk) 22:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

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