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The bias on this page is not only blatant and inconsistent with 40 years of nutritional science, but it is consistent with the bias found on every other vegan advocate pages on Misplaced Pages.
Over the last 40 years, science, that is not funded by the farming and food manufacturing industry, points to the reality that humans are physiological herbivores, and that deviating from a herbivore diet compromises health and impacts longevity.
This systematic bias on Misplaced Pages is unworthy of the platform and could be impacting donations. Clearly, anyone who admires the scientists and doctors who are inappropriately lambasted on Misplaced Pages are thinking twice about making donations.
Is it possible that Misplaced Pages gets significant funding from the meat and dairy industry or drug companies? Les Phelos (talk) 13:56, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages runs on reliable sources not personal opinion. There are reliable sources criticizing McDougall's dieting ideas so that is reflected on the article. There is no conspiracy - Misplaced Pages articles are not being funded by the dairy or meat industry. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:21, 10 July 2022 (UTC)
Yes, I know it's SBM, but it's also a bad joke once it touches anything from veganism by Harriet Hall. I was introduced to her via her review of the China Study that left a lot to be desired. For example, in the link, she's reviewing a book published on August 1, 1991 and she's decrying outdated sources from 1970s-1990? Uh, maybe review a newer book of McDougall's if that's the problem. Not sure why reviewed an old book to decry old sources. 173.49.250.196 (talk) 18:47, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
Yes, and that's a very tidy arrangement to hide behind here, especially when you take a single doctor's opinion, who never chose to go into nutrition, over the entire American Dietetic Association's position that "It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes."
Why was this question never answered? I am also uncomfortable with the negative quotes from a blogger's website on this BLP. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 01:17, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Science-Based Medicine is a reliable source. It cannot be dismissed as just a blogger website because it is written by experts who advocate for evidence-based medicine. It is used on many biographies on Misplaced Pages. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
Such as which biographies? Just checking. A neurologist and oncologist and their little society is not a good source in my book. Quackwatch was similar, and made a LOT of errors, such as condemning chronic fatigue syndrome as a hoax, which of course it isn't. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 20:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
Do a search on Misplaced Pages for "sciencebasedmedicine.org". There are 80 matches, over 60 or so are biographies but they don't come up as matches for all of them for some reason. Just a few examples, it is used on the Aseem Malhotra, Joel Fuhrman and Steven Gundry articles. It is a reliable source for Misplaced Pages. In this area they often publish articles critical of fad diets. Psychologist Guy (talk) 00:00, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
Science-Based Medicine is considered a reliable source so there is no point in repeatedly moaning about it. See WP:SBM, "Science-Based Medicine is considered generally reliable, as it has a credible editorial board, publishes a robust set of editorial guidelines, and has been cited by other reliable sources. Editors do not consider Science-Based Medicine a self-published source, but it is also not a peer-reviewed publication with respect to WP:MEDRS". Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:43, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
A good source is not one that is generally considered reliable. A good source is a type of evidence that substantiates a claim. The studies cited also don’t do that. The claim that the McDougall diet may be deficient in various vitamins/minerals is not shown in the source given. Instead the source links to yet another source which is a study that does not discuss the McDougall diet but actually says vegans have the least deficiencies when compared to omnivores and vegetarians. It’s either a poorly written article or just filled with bias and possible malicious intent. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:C937:C2E3:1B7:B56F (talk) 21:06, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
You are conducting WP:OR, what you are saying may or may not be true but it is not up to us to challenge what is in reliable sources. If you have an issue with Science-Based Medicine take it up with them. At Misplaced Pages we just cite what reliable secondary sources say. There is a strong consensus that Science-Based Medicine is a reliable source, so it can be cited on Misplaced Pages. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:54, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
I see. So you’re saying Science Based Medicine wrote the Misplaced Pages article? If not, then my point has nothing to do with them since I’m talking about the sources on the Misplaced Pages page for John A McDougall. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:C937:C2E3:1B7:B56F (talk) 08:15, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying you are indulging in original research by challenging what is in reliable sources. I see now you are not just specifically talking about Science-Based Medicine you are disputing other sources on the Misplaced Pages article such as this review . Like I said there is nothing we can do about this. If you have issue with the sources themselves you have to take it up with the authors yourself outside of Misplaced Pages. On Misplaced Pages all we do is compile and cite reliable sources but we can't do our own research by disputing what is in reliable sources, we just cite them. The source says "Iron, zinc, vitamin B12, vitamin D, calcium, and omega-3 s are potential nutritional deficiencies from following such a strict diet". This is referring to the low-fat McDougall diet, it is not talking about vegan diets in general. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
I think that user might have been referring to the German Wiki article as well . The German Wiki article has been updated a few years ago with a major white-wash, any sourced criticism or skepticism about the McDougall diet has been removed. Most of that article is sourced to McDougall's own books. Psychologist Guy (talk) 13:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
I understand your point. But I actually want to say that I don't have an issue with most of the sources, my issue is how the Misplaced Pages article uses quotes from sources to make false claims. To take your example, the Misplaced Pages page claims that the study "noted" "potential deficiencies" from "such a strict diet". This gives the appearance that the study was referring to the McDougall Diet, but it wasn't. It simply gave an overwiew of Low Fat Diets. It explains that some low fat diets can be dificient. It then explains how the Swank Diet (which is low fat) showed dificiencies, but it does directy mention McDougall diet as deficient. Very dissapointing to read missleading quotes on Misplaced Pages. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:D0DF:2DA3:8E56:C51F (talk) 15:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
This is what the reference says (reference 17 on our Misplaced Pages article) "The McDougall diet is a vegan, very low-fat (only 10% of kilocalories from fat), high-carbohydrate diet. Since Western-style diets have been attributed to several chronic diseases, this diet takes the opposite approach. Cereals, legumes, fruits and vegetables are included while sodium intake is limited and no animal products or added oils are allowed. Iron, zinc, vitamin B12, vitamin D, calcium, and omega-3 s are potential nutritional deficiencies from following such a strict diet". Our Misplaced Pages article does not misquote or misrepresent this reference. Can you explain what false claim is being made here? The source has been accurately cited. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:50, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
The false claim is that the quote refers to the McDougall diet. It doesn't. It is just part of the introductory paragraph that explains Low Fat Diets in general. It then goes into detail about the deficiencies mentioned, which it attributes to the Swank Diet (also a low fat diet). It does not directly say McDougall is deficient. 2001:8A0:FA74:4100:D0DF:2DA3:8E56:C51F (talk) 15:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
The text from the source we cite is accurate, I have quoted the paragraph in full above. The text is part of the same paragraph - it is referring to the McDougall diet. What Misplaced Pages is doing is accurate here per the sourcing, there is no misrepresentation. If you have an issue go and email the authors of the review paper, stop wasting time here. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:22, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
To summarize, first you claimed that the sources were not reliable, then you said the Misplaced Pages article contained "false" statements, and now you are saying the statements are not "directly" in the source. The constant is you want the criticism of McDougall's diet removed, but the reason why you want this is a variable: it changes to a new reason when the last reason is refuted. This is called WP:POV pushing. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:23, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
This seems to happen every year (it's been going on for about 4 now), there will be drive by IPs saying the same thing on this talk-page every 4 months or so but they are unable to point out any misrepresentation from sourcing so they end up moving all kinds of goal posts. Psychologist Guy (talk) 16:46, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
You're still pushing the same story, which isn't very fair or balanced. Then you periodically go off on some IP address rant, conveniently ignoring critics who are accountable and not anonymous at all. I think this blatant, mindless, reductionistic bias here against evidence-based practitioners such as John A. McDougall is an example of the worst of the internet.Jack.B.2007 (talk) 17:33, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
You missed but they are unable to point out any misrepresentation from sourcing. That is not an IP address rant, it is a fact. Are you able to point out such a misrepresentation, or are you only hot air too? --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:15, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Jack has actually made two YouTube videos criticizing this Misplaced Pages article , (he links to these videos on his Misplaced Pages userpage). In the second video he zooms in on my userpage and makes some personal attacks against me. I have listened to both of his videos and in neither did he cite a single reliable source to improve the article. He pointed out one spelling mistake (which was later corrected) as an apparent criticism of the article being unreliable. The only source he actually cites is this 2021 report written by Michael Klaper, Susan M. Levin, Neal Barnard etc on dairy consumption. The report was not peer-reviewed, nor does it mention McDougall so it is off-topic (WP:OR).
Jack criticizes this Misplaced Pages article and will make an an hours worth of video about it but when asked for a reliable source he doesn't list any. Is it laziness, is it trolling or is it misrepresentation of how Misplaced Pages works? I think all three. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
You obviously have no intention in keeping this article objective. The main source (textbook) I removed doesn't contain such extreme bias against and is actually quite tolerant toward McDougall diet. I have the copy and can find only one reference to McDougall in total. Teleoid (talk) 09:07, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
It's not as if this hasn't been discussed to death already on this very Talk page (see the archives). Bottom line: Misplaced Pages is going to follow the quality source faithfully, by which this is a fad diet. Bon courage (talk) 09:13, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Teleoid has filed this at the biographies of living persons . What this user is claiming is inaccurate. I paid for the nutritional textbook a few years ago. This is a high-quality source. It lists the McDougall Diet as a fad diet. It's odd someone would claim otherwise if they had actually read this source. It is very clear. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:05, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Seems to a recurring theme that "it's not in the book", when it very much is (I have seen it too). I wonder if there's something out there on the big bad web responsible for this myth? Bon courage (talk) 15:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
The only criticism I have seen on the web of this Misplaced Pages article is from the "whole food plant-based diet" community on Reddit , that is just one thread but there are two others. It would probably explain some of the drive-by accounts that leave talk-page comments here every few months. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Caldwell Esselstyn, a renowned American physician and retired heart surgeon, praised McDougall for his insights and observing that high-fat and animal-derived Westernized foods made healthy people "fatter and sicker".Teleoid (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
You and @Psychologist Guy are gaslighting me and several other people here who have given up.
Nobody said it's not in the book, that's dishonest. I'm restating again that the subject matter wasn't dealt with in the textbook other than vaguely mentioning it in a table among several other barely related diets. The source is "quality" but in this instance worth §hit. And your gate keeping is hiding behind some old literature insisting the diet is a fad. That's a disgrace. And backward. Teleoid (talk) 19:59, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
WP:PEACOCK language like "renowned American physician" is not appropriate for a serious encyclopedia, as Misplaced Pages aspires to be. The view of a fringe diet book is undue here.Previously, you blanked mention of 'fad diet' with the ES that 'source does not call McDougall Diet a fad diet', which is incorrect. Bon courage (talk) 20:19, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Sure, I made some errors, no need to rub it in.
Why does Butler get to have a say? Esselstyn is hardly "fringe" compared to him.
In 1992, nutritionist Kurt Butler described McDougall's ideas as "vegetarian extremism" and McDougall as "Americas most influential vegan zealot" who has taken the low-fat vegetarian diet to extremes.
If you allow this type of language from a non-medical book and disregard Esselstyn's view, then the article is heavily lopsided against McDougall, especially since Esselstyn is more relevant. Butler doesn't even have a Misplaced Pages entry and 1992 is long time ago, speaking of fringe and gatekeeping. Teleoid (talk) 10:14, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Outdated anti-vegan rhetoric
I suggest the following be removed for outdated and inappropriate claims - in particular need for dairy, protein myth, etc. It is unfair and doesn't deserve to be cited as its medical advice is unsound and not in line with modern research. Vegans have clearly been able to obtain nutrition since and the authors are obviously criticising more than just McDougall.
Reviewing McDougall's book The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss, nutritionist Fredrick J. Stare and epidemiologist Elizabeth Whelan criticized its restrictive regime and "poor advice", concluding that the diet's concepts were "extreme and out of keeping with nutritional reality". The authors state that failure to consume dairy products creates a risk for osteoporosis, and that if animal products cannot be replaced with peanut butter and soybean foods, vegans may not obtain enough protein.Teleoid (talk) 10:32, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Same with Kurt Butler, his critical attitudes are aimed at veganism, a view which has been discredited thoroughly, and therefore cannot be applied to McDougall as evidence of fault:
In 1992, nutritionist Kurt Butler described McDougall's ideas as "vegetarian extremism" and McDougall as "Americas most influential vegan zealot" who has taken the low-fat vegetarian diet to extremes.
Here's an example of this backwardness from the same book (A Consumer's Guide to Alternative Medicine, 1992): ... excludes even small amounts of fish and low-fat dairy products.
John A. McDougall has criticized soy, also isolated soy. In his book Starch Solution he has a chapter on soybean foods and isolated soy. He makes a lot of incorrect claims about isolated soy claiming "research shows isolated soy protein is just as damaging as meat protein to the bones". He says that soy including traditional soy should only be eaten as a treat food. On his website he criticizes soy consumption saying it can only be used in "small amounts on special occasions". So you cannot eat a lot of Soy on the McDougall diet.
If you check his website McDougall also calls peanut butter high-fat and says he only uses powdered peanut butter, with 85% of the fat removed . So you would not be eating much peanut butter either on the McDougall diet. He is also anti-oil and incorrectly claims vegetable oils cause cancer. He is anti-nut and anti-seeds claiming incorrectly they make people fat. Brazil nuts are a good source of selenium but you cannot eat them on his diet. Likewise other nuts and seeds are a good source of magnesium and zinc but you cannot eat them on the McDougall diet. He also attacks the use of avocados claiming they make vegans fat.
If you check his website he has also attacked nutritional yeast and fortified foods. He criticizes nutritional supplements apart from b12. More recently he has come out against fruit juice as he says it has too much sugar. At the end of the day, McDougall is anti-fat, anti-oil anti-sugar, anti-fortified food, anti-processed food, anti-energy drink, anti-nuts, anti-seeds, anti-avocado, anti-supplements, looks like he is also anti-fruit now as well. He's almost anti-everything. This goes on. This is a restrictive regime that is devoid of plenty of nutrients. Most people who try his diet give up after a year or two. The quote from nutritionist Fredrick J. Stare and epidemiologist Elizabeth Whelan is accurate. Let's not pretend this restrictive diet is medical-based. Most in the vegan community want nothing to do with McDougall and I say this as someone who has been involved 20 years with the community. The funny thing is, John A. McDougall isn't even a vegan in his personal life. He eats turkey twice a year.
We have had many discussions like this already. The article is well-sourced, Kurt Butler is well qualified and a reliable source. You do not have any reliable sources otherwise you would have cited them by now. There is no need to go over old ground here. Psychologist Guy (talk) 12:27, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately, your personal narrative is not a good source either. Kurt Butler's anti-vegan views are outdated and don't belong in this article, I already explained. The burden of proof should be on why to keep Butler's nonsense, not otherwise. Teleoid (talk) 13:24, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
You are wasting your time here with this, if you want to be a McDougall POV-warrior this isn't the place to do it because the article is well sourced and we are not going to remove WP:RS just because you do not like them. Butler is not opposed to plant-based diets, he just calls out McDougall's extreme claims which lack support. McDougall for example claims that dairy products are the main cause most chronic diseases. This is obviously not true. Read the Misplaced Pages dairy product article for good sourcing on this.
McDougall isn't helping the vegan cause by making false statements such as dairy causing multiple sclerosis or dementia and olive oil causing cancer. Such claims are not supported by medical evidence. In a few years when you have gained more experience you may regret your former actions here of promoting McDougall pseudoscience. There is no valid to reason to remove Kurt Butler, he is only cited once on the article. In the past he was cited more than this but this was trimmed down. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:00, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
Saying you disagree with something isn't really the way this works. If you have an issue with a source then you need to provide other sources. GMG14:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
@GreenMeansGo: other sources? To prove the original statement is biased, and source weak, old and inappropriate?
The entire page sounds more like an anti-vegan smear campaign than a Misplaced Pages article.
WP:OR, none of those organizations mention McDougall; we can only cite sources on this article that specifically mention McDougall. We have an article on vegan nutrition. See Vegan nutrition position of dietetic and government associations for further details. But it should be noted that none of the health organizations you list are anti-fat, anti-vegetable oil, anti-fruit juice, anti-nuts, anti-seeds, anti-fortified foods or anti-supplements like McDougall is. They wouldn't support McDougall's extremism. In fact, the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics openly supports the use of fortified foods for vegans and talks about the benefits of nuts, seeds and vegetable oils. Here is their website on healthy fats , openly describing nuts, and olive oil as heart healthy. Psychologist Guy (talk) 15:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
