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Talk:Russian web brigades

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 80.73.66.107 (talk) at 15:45, 11 April 2007. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Relation to previous article

I do not recall exactly the previous article on this general subject; I assume that this one has been revised from the article discussed at Deletion review which in turn links to the AfD at

I see that there are only Russian sources for the earlier part of the article; there is nothing necessarily wrong with that, and some are translated. But because of the nature of the subject, I think it extremely important to find sources published by journalists from elsewhere, not directly involved in the controversy. DGG 04:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
I belive it is now a significantly different article, although some segments of text indeed concide. The title and content are very different, this article is much bigger and includes 14 references (the initial version of the article previously marked for deletion included only one reference, although I increased the number of references during deletion discussion). O'K, let' take a look at the references:
  1. ^ a b c China's secret internet police target critics with web of propaganda, by Jonathan Watts in Beijing, June 14, 2005, Guardian Unlimited
  2. ^ a b c d e f g Commissars of the Internet. The FSB at the Computer. by Anna Polyanskaya, Andrei Krivov, and Ivan Lomko, Vestnik online, April 30, 2003 (English translation)
  3. ^ a b c d e Eye for an eye (Russian) by Grigory Svirsky and Vladimur Bagryansky, publication of Russian Center for Extreme Journalism 
  4. ^ Articles by Anna Polyanskaya, MAOF publishing group
  5. ^ They are killing Galina Starovoitova for the second time (Russian) by Anna Polyanskaya
  6. ^ Conspiracy theory by Alexander Usupovsky, Russian Journal, 25 April, 2003
  7. ^ Operation "Disinformation" - The Russian Foreign Office vs "Tygodnik Powszechny", Tygodnik Powszechny, 13/2005
  8. ^ Interview of Roman Sadykhov (Russian), grani.ru, 3 April, 2007.
  9. ^ Military wing of Kremlin (Russian), The New Times, 19 March, 2007
 10. ^ " Grigory Svirsky Anastasya. A story on-line (Full text in Russian)
 11. ^ China's Hu vows to "purify" Internet, Reuters, Jan 24, 2007
 12. ^ War of the words by Guardian Unlimited, February 20, 2006
 13. ^ Ｗho are China's Top Internet Cops? China Digital Times
 14. ^ Internet as a field of information war against Armenia, by Samvel Martirosyan, 18 October, 2006,

References 1 and 7 are not written by Russian journalists, althouth they claim directly about the existence of this phenomenon. What do you mean: "involvement in controversy"? Do you mean that Ivan Lomko is "involved" because he discussed this matter in blogs after publication of his article? That sounds strange to me. But all other Russian authors are certainly not "involved" this way (Polyanskaya and references 3 (Grigory Svirsky), 8 and 9; others are not "Russian"). Biophys 06:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

What exacly is different for example? 1. Definition of the phenomenon was changed (so, we are talking about a different thing). 2. This is described as an international (not solely Russian) phenomenon. 3. More references was added and POV significantly reduced. Biophys 06:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Why this article does not qualify for speedy deletion

The rule says: "Recreation of deleted material. A copy, by any title, of a page that was deleted via Articles for deletion or another XfD process, provided that the copy is substantially identical to the deleted version and that any revisions made clearly do not address the reasons for which the page was deleted."

First, this article is not "substantially identical to the deleted version" (see below: it is sever times bigger and even its subject is significantly different). Second, even if to consider this as a recreation of an old article, the reasons for deletion were clearly addressed. The following critique has been provided during the deletion discussion: (a) wrong title; (b) WP:OR; (c) this is not a solely Russian phenomenon. All of that clearly can not be said about Internet brigades article. (a) The title is different. (b) This is not OR; 16 references to reliable sources provided. (c) This is not a solely Russian phenomenon, as clear from the text.

Now more detail:Biophys 17:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

First, I think this is new article. Yes, I have created previously the following article (this is the text exactly as it was when it was marked for deletion and the voting began - see):

Internet troll squads are teams of people from state security organizations who work in the Internet to harass and intimidate political bloggers, prevent free discussion of undesirable subjects, and to create the public opinion desired by the authorities.

This phenomenon has been discovered in RuNet by a group of investigative journalists led of Anna Polyanskaya, a former assistant to the Russian politician Galina Starovoitova

They found the appearance of organized and fairly professional “Squads”, composed of ideologically and methodologically identical personalities, who work in practically every popular liberal and pro-democracy blogs and internet newspapers of RuNet in Russian blogosphere. Troll squads appeared suddenly on Russian-language forums only in 1999 and they have been presumably organized by FSB, according to Polyanskaya and her collegaues.

These Internet “Squads” have a number of distinct features some of which are the folowing:

Sources

References

  1. They are killing Galina Starovoitova for the second time (Russian) by Anna Polyanskaya
  2. Commissars of the Internet. The FSB at the Computer. by Anna Polyanskaya, Andrei Krivov, and Ivan Lomko

Now please take a look at the present text of Internet brigades. The definition of the phenomenon is different. So, we are talking about a different thing. This is now an international (not solely Russian) phenomenon. There are 16 references insted of 2, and so on. Even if one consider this a partial recreation of an old article, it is perfectly consistent with Misplaced Pages policies to recreate an article if its initial verstion (stub!) has been deleted. Biophys 17:11, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I am not deleting this article at this time, and I have removed the speedy tags. Kafziel 17:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Reasons for speedy deletion

  • First of all, nothing has changed really in the article. The only thing that changed is defenition. And again it is original research. Where and who named those hoax russian teams "internet brigades"? Biophys linked originally to the Guradian article about China, but there is no any labelling of that thing in China. Guradian uses the term "army of secret comentators". Later after the article was nominated for deletion, Biophys has added a link to Polyanskaya article "Commissars of the internet". And again we see that throughout the whole text a term "brigade" is used meaning "team". Only once the term "web-brigade" is used. Looking onto other sources - we see that there is no such term which was used by Biophys. Conclusion, the term and the name for the article is an original research by Biophys which is not found in its sources.
  • Second, Biophys again publishes Sections "Behaviour" and "Tactics" - they haven't changed even and are ridiculously worded. According to them, every man in the internet who supports Putin - is a member of KGB "internet team". It is stupid... They abuse directly other users in Misplaced Pages.
  • Third, the article in Russian Misplaced Pages directly shows in its infobox that "Internet teams" are conspiracy theory and the whole thing is based on claims of few people, namely - Polyanskaya, Krivov and Lomko - authors of the article "Commissars of the Internet. The FSB at the Computer". Nowhere on this article the information about conspiracy theory is indicated.
  • Fourth, like the other article it is totally dedicated to Russia. Even adding some original research comparisons with China didn't help - the article is totally about Russia. For example. original research is all that Biophys published in the Section "Recent developments" nothing is said in the sources about the subject of the article - internet teams.
  • Fifth, the defenition of internet teams is totally original research. Nowhere you coud find that "intenet teams" are waging state-sponcored information warfare. Indeed, the word "warfare" is totally POV, except original research. Nowhere in sources you find that this is a warfare, and is against "blogs" or "political bloggers" - I have already pointed many times that nowhere in Russian sources you could find a word "Blog".
  • Sixth, false translation and original research in that "internet brigades" are working against blogs.
  • Seventh, this article is a POV fork of the deleted article Internet Troll Squads which was twice deleted: AfD and deletion review. Therefore the words of Kafziel do not correspond to reality. Moreover, the forst voting at AfD was rigged by Biophys and his friends canvassing outside the Misplaced Pages.Vlad fedorov 04:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Reply. 1. Please try Google search "Internet brigades", and you will see a lot of hits. I even had to make a disambig page Internet brigade. "Internet brigades" is simply translation from Russian. 2 No original research here. Everything is taken from sources. I personally do not claim anything at all. 3 Definition of the "Internet brigades" is taken from the sources. I only try to formulate this in encyclopedic style. If someone can formulate this better - you are welcome to do it. Let's discuss it here. 4 There is no much difference between "blogs" and "internet forums". If you think there is, we can write everywhere "forum" instead of "blog". 5 I wrote that Ysopovsky claimed this to be a conspiracy theory. This is something not obvious and debatable ("pro" and "contras" can be included in the article).Biophys 04:56, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
  • 1. And what? What reliable references out of these you have published? Do they refer to Russia or China?.
  • 2. Hahaha... Nothing is found in sources about state-sponcored information warfare. Give us the references and sources. You haven't done it.
  • 3. It is absoultely unencyclopedic in that you haven't given any reliable references.
  • 4. There is a big difference between "forum" and "blog". But let your ignorance speak for itself.
  • 5. It is so obvious, that even in Russian wikipedia people inserted warning infobox. So it's important enough.Vlad fedorov 05:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of text supported by references

The text deleted by Vlad was supported by the following references:

(1) Article by Usupovsky. He said in the end: "Огульное охаивание и нарочитая дискредитация с помощью "аргументов", сквозь которые просвечивают белые нитки, лишь способствует выталкиванию спецслужб во внеправовое пространство и толкает их к беспределу." That is exactly what I wrote in the article.

(2) Article by Svirsky. It claims a lot of things including the following: "Для нас несомненно, что в лице интернетной агитбригады Александра Юсуповского мы имеем наиболее косную и профнепригодную группу идеологической работы российской госбезопасности в Рунете. Эти агитаторы ФСБ были неспособны на серьёзные интеллектуальные дискуссии и до публикации аналитической работы "Виртуальное око старшего брата". На появление статьи интернет-Лубянка ответила её авторам и своим оппонетам на форумах Рунета тоже по-сталински: не серьёзным спором с фактами и аргументами в этой умной, богатой наблюдениями статье, а – выстрелом грязной шрапнелью. И прямыми угрозами убийства – пока лишь виртуальными... ". By the way, it uses expression: "интернетной агитбригады". Direct translation: "Internet agitation brigade".Biophys 16:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Improper title

On top of all of the above, the article's title is unjustified. The term "Internet brigades" has no established English usage in this context and as per this a neutrally phrased descriptive title is needed. I can't be sure which one since it is not clear to me what the scope of this article is supposed to be and whether it is the author intention to present this as a conspiracy theory or a real phenomenon. In any case, the current title is unacceptable. --Irpen 01:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Internet brigades and Misplaced Pages

Is anything known of those guys trying to push their propaganda through in Misplaced Pages? This project would be - intrinsically - a good means for these people.213.35.213.206 18:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

They would be interested in this article and other russia related stuff.


Query the RIPE Database Search for 213.35.213.206

Switch to the RIPE TEST Database


% This is the RIPE Whois query server #1. % The objects are in RPSL format. % % Rights restricted by copyright. % See http://www.ripe.net/db/copyright.html % Note: This output has been filtered. % To receive output for a database update, use the "-B" flag. % Information related to '213.35.212.0 - 213.35.213.255' inetnum: 213.35.212.0 - 213.35.213.255 netname: EE-ESTPAK descr: ADSL PtP descr: TRT-248-177 descr: Sole 14 descr: Tallinn descr: Estonian Telephone Co/Estpak Data country: EE admin-c: ET332-RIPE tech-c: ET332-RIPE rev-srv: dns.estpak.ee rev-srv: dns2.estpak.ee status: ASSIGNED PA remarks: INFRA-AW mnt-by: ESTPAK-MNT source: RIPE # Filtered role: ESTPAK NOC address: Elion Enterprises Ltd. address: Hostmasters and NOC helpdesk address: Sole str 14, Tallinn address: Estonia fax-no: +372 639 1180 remarks: trouble: 24/7 phone +372 639 1082 remarks: trouble: abuse@estpak.ee remarks: ---------------------------------------- remarks: Abuse notifications to: abuse@estpak.ee remarks: Network problems to: noc@elion.ee remarks: Peering requests to: peering@elion.ee remarks: IPv6 peering requests to: ipv6@elion.ee remarks: ----------------------------------------

Another Estonian internet troll squad memeber is here.Vlad fedorov 09:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Original research and falsification by Biophys, Lysy and Piotrus

Biophys inserted the following text in the article:

The teams of "Live Journal fighters" are reportedly created by "Russia the young" organization controlled from the Kremlin . " work in Live Journal is extremely important", said Vladislav Surkov, a top aide to Vladimir Putin .

He linked claims of creating the teams of "Live Journal fighters" by "Russia the young" to the following source www.grani.ru/Society/m.119861.html.

User Lysy and Piotrus restore this texts when I delete them as original research.

Nowhere in this source such facts are contained. Here is the full text of the article:

Предавший гласности

Национал-большевик Роман Садыхов, Анна Карпюк

www.grani.ru/Society/m.119861.html

UPDATE: I have removed the text per Irpen's counsel as it may violate copyrights.

This is falsification and original research.Vlad fedorov 07:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Falsification and hiding of authors indentities by Lysy

I have properly translated and posted credentials of the authors who alleged the existence of internet brigades.

This alleged phenomenon in RuNet was first written about in 2003 by a group of led by journalist and writer Anna Polyanskaya, a former assistant to assassinated Russian politician Galina Starovoitova., historian Andrey Krivov and a programmer Ivan Lomako .

Earlier it was written by Biophys that this phenomenon was discovered by a group of investigative journalists led by Polyanskaya. However from this "investigative journalists" the only journalist is only Polyanskaya.

The reference of Biophys is as follows:

Commissars of the Internet. The FSB at the Computer by Anna Polyanskaya, Andrei Krivov, and Ivan Lomko, Vestnik online, April 30, 2003 (English translation

I post the relevant text from the article:

Анна ПОЛЯНСКАЯ (Франция), Андрей КРИВОВ (Франция), Иван ЛОМКО (Нью-Йорк) ВИРТУАЛЬНОЕ ОКО СТАРШЕГО БРАТА Попытка исследования

Анна Полянская — известный петербургский журналист, участник демократического и правозащитного движения, с 1993 по 1998 год помощник депутата ГосДумы Г.В.Старовойтовой. Работала ведущей публицистической программы «Альтернатива» петербургского телевидения, корреспондентом радио русской службы Би-би-си, публиковалась в различных российских и западных изданиях. С 1998 года живет в Париже.


Андрей Кривов, по образованию историк, бывший советский диссидент, один из руководителей независимой московской группы «Доверие», сотрудник со дня основания неподцензурного журнала «Гласность» Сергея Григорьянца. С 1988 года живет во Франции.


Иван Ломко родился в Москве в 50-е годы, закончил Физический факультет МГПИ, работал учителем в школе, научным сотрудником, затем переквалифицировался в программиста. В 1991 эмигрировал с семьей в США. В настоящее время живет в Нью-Йорке, где работает программистом-аналитиком в финансовой компании.

According to this text:

Anna Polyanskayais a journalist and writer Andrey Krivov is a historian and Ivan Lomako is a programmer.

User Lysy deleted my proper indetification by the following edit. He names a group made up of journalist, historian and a programmer "a group of investigative journalists" which is falsification. Vlad fedorov 07:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Then I suggest you consult WP:AGF, first. --Lysy 07:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
How does it reconciliate with the fact that you have restored false facts without looking into sources?Vlad fedorov 07:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Now, I would suggest you consult the Fallacy of many questions, which is exactly what your above question is. --Lysy 07:53, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I am not going to read non-relevant spam, as it is not Misplaced Pages policy involved. Moreover I usually do not read rubbish marked as "This article or section does not adequately cite its references or sources". I consider that you left mine single question on restoring repeatedly false text knowingly unanswered.Vlad fedorov 08:06, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletions of the referenced text by user Lysy

User Lysy constantly deletes the text taken from the Tygodnik Powszechny ] which clarifies their statements. I consider it as a violation of wp:npov.Vlad fedorov 07:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Vlad, if you read the text carefully, I'm sure you'd have noticed that the statement in question referred to a hacking attack against the newspaper's network. Confusing different contexts can be misleading for the reader of the article. --Lysy 07:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is the full quote for your convenience: Were all those occurrences from last Thursday and Friday only coincidental? We don’t know it for certain (tracing a source of the attack failed). Only questions and assumptions remain and we are unable to verify them.. --Lysy 07:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
And the text "according to Polish specialists in Russian affairs", "according to the same source" refers to what? You distort the meaning of this article by writing that "Tygodnki Powszechny reported". It in fact reported nothing - just published allegations of "unnamed Polish specialists in Russian Affairs". Therefore all accusations are just anonymous allegations. Vlad fedorov 07:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is the relevant text:
http://tygodnik.onet.pl/1547,1220890,dzial.html
"According to Polish specialists in Russian affairs, it was a model example of “the network war”, so to say “an electronic assault” on our communication system, without which none of newspapers can work. Or perhaps it was only a warning – an actual assault would simply blast our whole network.
It could have been also performed to probe the timing of a response, as experts tell us. Then, the Russian secret service made a test on us, the first such one in Poland. “The network war” has been being successfully employed in the area of former USSR countries, where the Internet plays a crucial role as the only independent source of information, free of official authority’s control (the web played such role during revolutions in Georgia as well as the Ukraine, and now – in Byelorussia).
The same source claims that at least a dozen of active Russian agents work in Poland, also investigating Polish internet. Not only do they scrutinize polish websites (like those supporting Byelorussian opposition), but also perform such actions, as – for instance – contributing to internet forums on large portals (like Gazeta.pl, Onet.pl, WP.pl). Labelled as Polish Internet users, they incite anti-Semitic or anti-Ukrainian discussions or disavow articles published on the web". Vlad fedorov 07:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Not anonymous. The article is signed by Malgorzata Nocun, Andrzej Brzeziecki and Wojciech Pieciak. --Lysy 07:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Who has signed as Polish specialists in Russian affairs or article's authors? These man published allegations of anonymous "Polish specialists in Russian affairs". What you have written are the authors of the article who published their allegations. And not Polish specialists in Russian affairs. Don't pretend that you don't understand. Ja bardzo dobrze razmawiam po polsku i moge Panu personalnie objasnic.Vlad fedorov 08:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, they are the authors of the article in TP, and we are using their article as our source. We are not supposed to do original research beyond what the source says. --Lysy 13:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Again original research and falsification by Biophys

User Biophys inserted the following text into the article:

Their ideological work in Live Journal is extremely important, said Vladislav Surkov, a top aide to Vladimir Putin.Military wing of Kremlin (Russian), The New Times, 19 March, 2007

The text which Biophys linked to http://www.newtimes.ru/index.php?page=journal&issue=6&article=231 about LiveJournal is not found in the text of the article.

This is a second case of original research and falsification by Biophys.Vlad fedorov 07:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Falsification of Usupov citation by Biophys

User Biophys has inserted the following text:

Alexander Usupovski, head of the analytical department of the Federation Council of Russia dismissed the existence of such brigades as a conspiracy theory and noted that defamation of Russian secret services may force them to work "beyond the law" .

The text of the following citation: "noted that defamation of Russian secret services may force them to work "beyond the law" is a falsification by Biophys.

The original Russian text presents us with the following: Мы никогда не поставим силовые структуры и спецслужбы страны в правовые рамки и под правовой контроль, если не научимся рационально и непредвзято признавать их необходимость и полезность выполняемых ими функций для страны, государства, общества и граждан. Огульное охаивание и нарочитая дискредитация с помощью "аргументов", сквозь которые просвечивают белые нитки, лишь способствует выталкиванию спецслужб во внеправовое пространство и толкает их к беспределу.

Direct translation: "We would never make our country's military organizations and security services work under the rule of law and legal control, if won't learn to recognize rationally and objectively their necessity and usefullness of functions performed by them for the country, state, society and citizens. Sweepeing defamation and intentional discreditation with the help of "arguments", which are obviously false, only contribute to the extrusion of security services outside of rule of law and instigates them to chaos (lawlessness, mayhem - беспредел).

It is evident that Biophys distorted the real meaning of the phrase and quoted it out of context. I have corrected his grossly distorted citation.Vlad fedorov 08:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Original research by Biophys on "active measures"

Biophys inserts in the text allegations of performing active measures by Internet brigades. He inserts such allegations without any source in the preamble of the article and section dedicated to "Methods of Internet brigades". Methods are linked to Polyanskaya, Krivov and Lomko article "Big brother", but nowhere in the text of this source active measures are mentioned.

This is, therefore, original research and falsification of sources by Biophys.Vlad fedorov 09:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

User Lysy behaviour on AfD for this article

After I confronted user Lysy with his deletions from the article of pertinent information about the identities of individuals alleging the existence of brigades and false labelling of them as "investigative journalists", User Lysy made the following edit. This case once again shows that people who falsify most text in the article are voting more strongly for the article itself. User Lysy also was deleting information from Tygodnik Powszechny about the identities of people who claimed the existence of Internet brigades in Poland - they were anonims. Vlad fedorov 10:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

What can I say. Please read WP:AGF again and again. --Lysy 13:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't let putins to delete these page!

  1. Articles by Anna Polyanskaya, MAOF publishing group
  2. Template:Ru icon "They are killing Galina Starovoitova for the second time", by Anna Polyanskaya
  3. ^ Cite error: The named reference Polyanskaya was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  4. Conspiracy theory, by Alexander Usupovsky, Russian Journal, 25 April, 2003