Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Arminden (talk | contribs) at 21:02, 14 May 2024 (→Made-up "sources"). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bethlehem article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article: You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive) You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. Further information The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are: Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive. Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required. With respect to the WP:1RR restriction: Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring. Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence. After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions. Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard. If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

	Bethlehem has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result January 22, 2008 Good article nominee Listed
	Facts from this article were featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on December 21, 2016, December 21, 2019, and December 21, 2020.

This  level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Arab world Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Arab world, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Arab world on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Arab worldWikipedia:WikiProject Arab worldTemplate:WikiProject Arab worldArab world Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Holidays: Christmas Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Holidays, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of holidays on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.HolidaysWikipedia:WikiProject HolidaysTemplate:WikiProject HolidaysHolidays Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Christmas task force (assessed as High-importance). Christianity: History / Christmas Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ChristianityWikipedia:WikiProject ChristianityTemplate:WikiProject ChristianityChristianity Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by WikiProject Christian history. This article is supported by Christmas task force (assessed as High-importance). Cities This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CitiesWikipedia:WikiProject CitiesTemplate:WikiProject CitiesWikiProject Cities Judaism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Jewish history Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Palestine Top‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Misplaced Pages. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Israel Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Project Israel To Do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Assess : Rate the Unassessed Israel-related articles and Unknown-importance Israel-related articles. Cleanup : Cleanup listing for this project is available. See also the list by category and the tool's wiki page. Collaborate : Participate in WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration. Copyedit : Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2005 Deletion sorting : Participate in discussions at WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel. Expand : Ayala Procaccia, Diamond industry in Israel, Edna Arbel, Levin Kipnis, Rami Kleinstein, Sephardic Haredim, Zman Tel Aviv, Nachum Heiman, Public Defence (Israel), Prisoner of Zion, Trial of Benjamin Netanyahu, Day to Mark the Departure and Expulsion of Jews from the Arab Countries and Iran, Pre-Modern Aliyah See also Articles needing translation from Hebrew Misplaced Pages. Geographical coordinates : Add geographic coordinates to Israel articles missing geocoordinate data. Infobox : Add infoboxes to Israel articles needing infoboxes. Maintain : See Israel articles needing attention. Map : See discussion at Module:Location map/data/Israel. Add maps to articles in Misplaced Pages requested maps in Israel. NPOV : Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries Photo : Add pictures to articles in Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Israel. Stubs : See Israel stubs. Update : Basic Law proposal: Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People Other : Translate to Hebrew : David Bar-Hayim, Guy Bavli, and Guy Oseary. Greece: Byzantine High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greek history on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. This article is supported by the Byzantine world task force. Classical Greece and Rome High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome, a group of contributors interested in Misplaced Pages's articles on classics. If you would like to join the WikiProject or learn how to contribute, please see our project page. If you need assistance from a classicist, please see our talk page.Classical Greece and RomeWikipedia:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeTemplate:WikiProject Classical Greece and RomeClassical Greece and Rome High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Military history: Fortifications / Middle East / Ottoman / Roman & Byzantine / Classical / Medieval / Early Muslim / Crusades / Early Modern This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history Associated task forces: /  Fortifications task force Middle Eastern military history task force Ottoman military history task force Roman and Byzantine military history task force Classical warfare task force (c. 700 BC – c. 500 AD) Medieval warfare task force (c. 500 – c. 1500) Early Muslim military history task force (c. 600 – c. 1600) Crusades task force Early Modern warfare task force (c. 1500 – c. 1800)

Archives

1, 2

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Christian community

Do we have any sources with surveys that report on explicit reasons of the community's dwindling numbers? Makeandtoss (talk) 15:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The article says that the Christian community has dwindled due to difficulties attached to the Israeli occupation. Gosh, since when are the Israelis giving a hard time to Christians? The scuttlebutt is that actions by some Muslims have caused a Christian exodus there. --- Vitruviuspolio (talk) 01:26, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Persecution of Christians by Muslims and Palestinian authority officals

Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in lead. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Current paragraph:

While it was historically a city of Arab Christians, Bethlehem now has a majority of Arab Muslims; it is still home to a significant community of Palestinian Christians, however it has dwindled significantly, mostly due to difficulties resulting from living under the Israeli occupation. Presently, Bethlehem has become encircled by dozens of Israeli settlements, which significantly hinder the ability of Palestinians in the city to openly access their land and livelihoods, which has contributed to the exodus of Palestinians

Is rather heavily NPOV, doesn't reflect persecution and discrimination against Christians by the Palestinian Authority and Muslims. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:07, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Also doesn't reflect following explaining Muslim majority, which happened also due to when the Palestinian Authority taking control in 1995, it reportedly expanded the boundaries of Bethlehem, allegedly to ensure a Muslim majority. This enlargement resulted in the inclusion of more than 30,000 Muslims from nearby refugee camps into the city. Yasser Arafat, at that time the head of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) also unilaterally replaced the predominantly Christian city council with a leadership that was predominantly Muslim. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:16, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Expanding the boundaries of a city is not persecution. VR _talk 01:37, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Also doesn't reflect hardships faced by Christians from PA officals in the judicary system, negative behaviour, attacks on churches and christians etc... Homerethegreat (talk) 14:19, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

The sources show that the Christians of Bethlehem blame the Israeli occupation for their wanting to leave the city, you put in a highly distorted view of the causes of their emigration. See for example: Allen, John L. (2016). The Global War on Christians: Dispatches from the Front Lines of Anti-Christian Persecution. Crown Publishing Group. pp. 125–126. ISBN 978-0-7704-3737-4. Retrieved 2023-12-19. Yet most Arab Christians living in Israel do not describe their situation in glowing terms. Samer Makhlouf, a Catholic and executive director of One Voice, a grassroots movement in Palestine that brings together young Palestinians and Israelis to promote peace, says that of the four problems facing Christians in the Holy Land, the first three are "occupation, occupation, occupation." Makhlouf described Israeli military and security policy as "the father of all the problems in the region." That perception seems widespread. A 2006 poll by Zogby International found that in the city of Bethlehem, 78 percent of Christians said that Christians were leaving the city because of Israeli occupation, while only 3.2 percent attributed the Christian exodus to the rise of Islamic movements. what you put in the article was, again, a highly distorted portrayal of why the Christians of Bethlehem are leaving. When the overwhelming majority is leaving because of the Israeli occupation and you claim it is because of Muslim oppression you are distorting the record. nableezy - 14:50, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Please see following sources:

Clearly, Christians in Bethlehem suffer from both factors. It would be NPOV not to mention it. If the writing is problematic we can have the following: "Christians in Bethlehem suffer from persecution from Muslims and PA officials. Their share of the city has fallen since the Palestinian Authority enlarged the city to encompass surrounding Muslim villages. They have emigrated, citing mainly the Israeli occupation." Homerethegreat (talk) 10:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Any further responses? Homerethegreat (talk) 08:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

NPOV not to include it in the MOS:LEAD? Kire1975 (talk) 16:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

You haven't said what is NPOV about that paragraph. Kire1975 (talk) 16:23, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

References

1. Kamin, Debra. "Are Bethlehem's Christians losing grip on their city?". www.timesofisrael.com. Retrieved 2022-06-10.
2. Klein, Aaron; Daily, World Net (2005-12-27). "'Muslims persecuting Bethlehem's Christians'". Ynetnews. Retrieved 2022-06-10.
3. admin (2008-09-15). "Muslims Continue Pushing Christians Out of Bethlehem". International Christian Concern. Retrieved 2023-12-07.
4. "Palestinian Crimes against Christian Arabs and Their Manipulation against Israel". Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs. Retrieved 2023-12-07.
5. Klein, Aaron; Daily, World Net (2005-12-27). "'Muslims persecuting Bethlehem's Christians'". Ynetnews. Retrieved 2023-12-07.
6. CNEWA (2002-01-23). "Christian Emigration Report: Palestine". CNEWA. Retrieved 2023-12-07. Selected accounts of Christians expressing feelings of intimidation/persecution due to rise in Muslim extremism: Muslims refusing to hire Christian workers or to sell property to Christians Christian women describe increasing harassment from Muslim men.
7. Meotti, Giulio (2012-04-28). "Bethlehem's last Christians?". Ynetnews. Retrieved 2023-12-07.

Hamas rally image in Body

Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in body. Homerethegreat (talk) 14:12, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

This image: :

Homerethegreat (talk) 14:14, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

The image reflects political activity in the city of Bethlehem and therefore I do not see why it is not due to be included. If NPOV is an issue one can add an image of Fatah rally no? Homerethegreat (talk) 14:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

No it doesn’t not reflect political activity in Bethlehem, Hamas is not the local government in Bethlehem and it is unrepresentative to feature that image. nableezy - 14:42, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Why don't we have both a picture of fatah and Hamas? Homerethegreat (talk) 10:07, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Do we have Likud rally pictures on the Tel Aviv or Jerusalem articles? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:48, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't know, you can check. We're talking about Bethlehem here though. Homerethegreat (talk) 12:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

No, we shouldn't have it. Hamas is not a major force there as far as I know, so it gives a wrong impression. Zero 10:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Edit request - Amarna reference

I would like to ask for the help of an authorized editor to change the references to the Amarna correspondence as they are demonstrably based on wishful thinking. This is not crack-pottery or original research, but properly sourced below and also evident to anybody who can read some cuneiform.

Here's how the Britannica puts it: "An ancient settlement, it is possibly mentioned in the Amarna Letters (14th-century-bce diplomatic documents found at Tell el-Amarna, Egypt), but the reading there is uncertain." - we could also just copy this statement.

The basis of the often repeated statement that Bethlehem is mentioned in the Amarna correspondence goes back to W. F. Albright. The original tablet, EA 290 (Amarna letter 290), does, however, not say bit-Lahmi, but bit-nin-urta (or nin-ib, in an alternative reading). Albright went through some hair-raising acrobatics to apply a different reading to get the desired result.

Here is how Nicolas Blincoe (Bethlehem, biography of a town) describes the genesis of this interpretation (end of chapter 1, I do not see page numbers):

"Albright was quick to pick up on Schroeder's claim to have found the first mention of Bethlehem. But he offered a different and far simpler translation. He argued that the cuneiform symbol Beit-Ninurta could be read Beit-Lahmu because "Lahmu" was an alternative for Ninurta among the Sumerians. No one has ever suggested this, and as Lahmu is only ever mentioned in conjunction with his twin sister, Lahamu, the connection is highly dubious. In truth, Albright seems to have misunderstood Schroeder's reading, which had only been published in German. Albright recanted in 1968, when he identified Beit-Ninurta with Beit Horon, yet his fanciful interpretation of the Abdi-Heba letter is still cited in guidebooks and archaeological studies to date Bethlehem."

BTB, Misplaced Pages's own article on the letter has bit-Ninurta, as it should: https://en.wikipedia.org/Amarna_letter_EA_290, line 15

How about this as a compromise then: "Bethlehem has been suggested as a reading for the place-name bīt-ninurta in one of the Amarna letters (EA 290), but this reading is very uncertain and has been rejected by other scholars."

Likewise in the section under Canaanite, the name Bit-Lachmi should be replaced by the original Bit-ninurta with a reference that this name has been interpreted by at least two scholars as Bethlehem, but that said reading is uncertain and has met with significant objections.

Hope an editor sees this, makes it through my wall of text and is willing to work on it. Please contact me on my contact page if I can help. Thanks! MikuChan39 (talk) 23:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at Bethlehem. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

please change "The earliest-known mention of Bethlehem is in the Amarna correspondence of ancient Egypt, dated to 1350–1330 BCE, when the town was inhabited by the Canaanites." to "A possible first mention of Bethlehem occurs in the Amarna correspondence of ancient Egypt, dated to 1350–1330 BCE, although that reading is uncertain". and "The earliest mention of Bethlehem as a place appears in the Amarna correspondence (c. 1400 BCE), in which it is referred to as Bit-Laḫmi, a name for which the origins remain unknown." (under Etymology) to "Amarna letter EA290 (wiki-link to https://en.wikipedia.org/Amarna_letter_EA_290) makes reference to a town bīt-ninurta which has been read as Bit-Lachmi by scholar W. F. Albright following a proposal by Otto Schroeder in 1815 and making it a potential first historical reference to Bethlehem. This reading is, however, uncertain and has met with objections "

Direct link to Blincoe: https://books.google.com/books?id=wJOYDgAAQBAJ&pg=PT51&lpg=PT51&dq=Albright+was+quick+to+pick+up+on+Schroeder%27s+claim+to+have+found+the+first+mention+of+Bethlehem.+But+he+offered+a+different+and+far+simpler+translation.+He+argued+that+the+cuneiform&source=bl&ots=oQbBCZTWGN&sig=ACfU3U3UIje8VOqbXc1m5qLyjTvsbhVLlg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwioo_fE7YKFAxXZg4kEHc8yDt4Q6AF6BAgrEAM#v=onepage&q=Albright%20was%20quick%20to%20pick%20up%20on%20Schroeder's%20claim%20to%20have%20found%20the%20first%20mention%20of%20Bethlehem.%20But%20he%20offered%20a%20different%20and%20far%20simpler%20translation.%20He%20argued%20that%20the%20cuneiform&f=false

I have no interest in denigrating the history of any particular religion or ethnicity - simply came to this from the cuneiform side when a student mentioned the Amarna reference to me and I looked at the tablet in question to quickly realize that this is a common story which is uncritically repeated a hundred years after even though the evidence really does not bear it out, in my view - I am horrified that this is not at least qualified somewhat in the Misplaced Pages article the way e.g. the Britannica does it. Having raised this issue twice in the comments now (see Archive 2), I thought I'd try an EPER. Hope somebody can take a look and happy to collaborate if I can. MikuChan39 (talk) 12:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

A história está sendo reescrita por muçulmanos, progressistas e pró-palestinos

Milhares de termos relacionados a Israel e ao povo judeu são reescritos para se adequarem a narrativas falsas. Isso prejudica a credibilidade do site. 37.47.131.186 (talk) 15:53, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Made-up "sources"

1st sentence had as "sources" two totally unrelated texts, dealing with preps for Millennium Year (pre-2000 real building work & "Potemkin villages") and use of Hebrew and Arabic in "Small Triangle" vs. West Bank. Not

• B. in Arabic, Hebrew
• distance from Jerusalem (how to be measured? Not an empty question, the two touch each other.)
• current population
• admin. status of B. city.

Who's kidding whom?

Here they are if you doubt it.

Amara, 1999, p. 18 Archived May 29, 2021, at the Wayback Machine.

p. 202 Archived May 29, 2021, at the Wayback Machine Arminden (talk) 21:00, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages good articles
• Geography and places good articles
• GA-Class level-5 vital articles
• Misplaced Pages level-5 vital articles in Geography
• GA-Class vital articles in Geography
• GA-Class Arab world articles
• Mid-importance Arab world articles
• WikiProject Arab world articles
• GA-Class Holidays articles
• Mid-importance Holidays articles
• GA-Class Christmas articles
• High-importance Christmas articles
• Christmas task force articles
• WikiProject Holidays articles
• GA-Class Christianity articles
• Mid-importance Christianity articles
• GA-Class Christian History articles
• Unknown-importance Christian History articles
• Christian History articles
• WikiProject Christianity articles
• GA-Class WikiProject Cities articles
• All WikiProject Cities pages
• GA-Class Judaism articles
• Mid-importance Judaism articles
• GA-Class Jewish history-related articles
• Mid-importance Jewish history-related articles
• WikiProject Jewish history articles
• GA-Class Palestine-related articles
• Top-importance Palestine-related articles
• WikiProject Palestine articles
• GA-Class Israel-related articles
• Mid-importance Israel-related articles
• WikiProject Israel articles
• GA-Class Greek articles
• High-importance Greek articles
• Byzantine world task force articles
• WikiProject Greece history articles
• All WikiProject Greece pages
• GA-Class Classical Greece and Rome articles
• High-importance Classical Greece and Rome articles
• All WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome pages
• GA-Class military history articles
• GA-Class fortifications articles
• Fortifications task force articles
• GA-Class Middle Eastern military history articles
• Middle Eastern military history task force articles
• GA-Class Ottoman military history articles
• Ottoman military history task force articles
• GA-Class Roman and Byzantine military history articles
• Roman and Byzantine military history task force articles
• GA-Class Classical warfare articles
• Classical warfare task force articles
• GA-Class Medieval warfare articles
• Medieval warfare task force articles
• GA-Class early Muslim military history articles
• Early Muslim military history task force articles
• GA-Class Crusades articles
• Crusades task force articles
• GA-Class Early Modern warfare articles
• Early Modern warfare task force articles
• Misplaced Pages extended-confirmed-protected edit requests