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Talk:Lists of atheists

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Inclusion standards

Who should be on the list of atheists? So far the ones discussing the subject have agreed on:

  • People who have influenced the history of atheism or advanced/influenced atheist thought in a significant way (first section).
  • Notable people (deserving of a Misplaced Pages article) who have atheism as a relevant part of their life, work, etc. (second section).

The first section includes not only activists but e.g. philosophers who constructed godless/humanist theories of ethics (their work contributes to atheism because it demonstrates the possibility of ethics without belief in God).

The second section is trickier, but we believe that simply including famous people is useless. If you need to dig out endlessly into interviews and public appearances of someone to find one instance of professing or implying atheism, then that person doesn't belong in here.

There could be advantages in dividing the list further. The temp list below is divided by time (pre-modern, modern (up to 19th cent.) and contemporary (20th cent. onwards)).

--Pablo D. Flores 12:56, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)

How to divide the list

As of today, we have "Notables" and "Others", each one divided into "Contemporary", "Modern" and "Pre-modern".

Another possible division would be

  • activists/reformers
  • philosophers/scientists
  • writers/poets/filmmakers
  • entertainers/presenters/actors/celebrities et al.

Solipsist comments:

With the 'People who have influenced the history of atheism' section, you might try listing chronologically by date-of-birth, rather than alphabetically. In a way it helps illustrate the development of ideas...
I would caution against deletion of celebrity atheists just because they are celebrities. ... On the other hand, there isn't much wrong with deleting entries and asking anyone who restores them to justify the restore.
Currently, the division between "notable" and "other" atheists seems pretty arbitrary. Why, for instance, are Isaac Asimov, Mark Twain and Mao Zedong not listed under "notable atheists"? They were certainly notable people who were atheists. The justification seems to be some sort of division between people who made a big deal of their atheism versus those who didn't, without any objective criteria for such a division. In my opinion, this needs to be reworked, perhaps listing them instead based on their professions (compare for example list of Jews and list of Muslims). — Ливай | ☺ 23:42, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Agnostics

Many people qualified themselves as agnostics because it was politically or physically dangerous to be outright atheists (Susan B. Anthony); others were philosophically agnostic but atheists in practice (cf Bertrand Russell). We need to adress this. I'd vote for inclusiveness, but there must be a way to avoid letting in the most dubious "presumed atheists". --Pablo D. Flores 01:08, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not sure how we could address this issue. If we are certain they were truly atheists and have a certain degree of proof about it, they should be included. However, the fact that they were seen as agnostics back in their time may be a sign that they weren't all that influential in the first place (??). --Comics
Not really. In fact, they may have been too influential/popular. That's why I mentioned Susan B. Anthony -- she was probably an atheist but kept more or less quiet about it since it would have damaged her reputation in other causes that she deemed prioritary (like women's suffrage). --Pablo D. Flores 12:52, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)
PS Should we include a brief definition of what an atheist is, weak vs. strong, etc.?
No, I don't think so. It's not the purpose of the article. However, it would be useful to just point to Atheism and state that an explanation is available there. --Comics 21:27, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Deletions

I've moved the rejected items to a /Rejected subpage, as per the suggestion of MeltBanana. I'm also cleaning up some discussion here and summarizing it (hope you don't mind).

  • When you delete someone from the main list or from the Dubious list, place him/her in the /Rejected subpage and note the reason next to it.
  • If you move an item in the article page (as in the case of George Carlin being moved from Others to Notable), make a note in this Talk page (under a new heading).
  • If you check someone's bio in the Dubious list, note what you found next to it, and your opinion. Strike it out if it looks rejectable, then wait and see if anybody objects. If it looks absolutely rejectable from the start, move it directly to /Rejected.
  • For the sake or orderliness, let's place new comment topics under new headings. The top of this page should always be the summary of the inclusion standards. Makes the page easier to edit, too.

Pablo, it seems as through an unregistered user has deleted a few entries. I would have gone ahead and reverted it, but you did the research on these people, so I think it should be up to you. Took a quick look at Einstein, he seems to be ambiguous. For the others, I don't know. What do you think? --Comics 04:02, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

For Susan B. Anthony I found this article in American Atheists. She is one of those people that may or may not be in the list, since there's no explicit profession of atheism, but everything points that way. In any case, I'm reverting. The unregistered user didn't offer a reason (as stated in the consensus policy) and didn't even offer a short explanation in the edit summary.
As for Einstein: definitely not a theist, maybe (and that's a big maybe) a pantheist, but it seems clear that "God" was more like a synonym for "the laws of the universe". Cf Stephen Hawking's "mind of God". Again, no reason given, so it'll be reverted. --Pablo D. Flores 10:56, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Unless the people in the dubious list are being checked, I'll begin striking off those who seem less convincing. And a couple weeks from now, struck-off items will be moved to Rejected. --Pablo D. Flores 12:02, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Einstein (again)

If you're thinking of deleting Einstein from the list, please please post a convincing reason here. Do not just delete him with a short comment on the edit summary. I'm reverting the last deletion now. Einstein said he did not believe in a personal God (that rules out deism, and theism for the most part), or prayer, or personal immortality, or anything supernatural besides cause and effect. --Pablo D. Flores 01:51, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages's article says he is a pantheist. Is that convincing enough for you? DJ Clayworth 02:08, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
In case it isn't, here is a key quote.
But, on the other hand, every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe -- a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.
While there are a lot of other Einstein quotes indicating his rejection of traditional theistic belief, and of a personal God, you mustn't always assume that means atheism. Sometimes people's beliefs are hard to pin down. DJ Clayworth 02:23, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
As I on one occasion deleted Einstein, I guess I should say something here. It is true that Einstein empathetically rejected having faith in a personal god (and I would like to note that this does *not* contradict deism, per wikipedia and other sources such as dictionary.com), I believe it was on the same occasion that he described his positive belief in some entity he labelled god. I don't have the exact quote, but it should be easy to find, and runs something like "My god is the god of Spinoza", making him a modern pantheist. I think these are reasons sufficient to at least make it very doubtful that he was an atheist, which is not compatible with belief in ANY god. --Teeks 22:15, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Stephen Hawking

As mentioned on the archived talk page

Removed Stephen Hawking - although many people imagine he must be an atheist, publicly he is deliberately equivocal on the point. When pressed he has said 'I don't believe in a personal God', but he can believe in a God as the embodiment of the laws of physics. - Solipsist 16:41, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hawking is most likely a deist, so removed again. -- Solipsist 08:20, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I read in Vanity Fair that Hawking was an Atheist-I'm the one who added him in April 2005. I thought that qualified as evidence. Seriously, is there any evidence to the contrary? -- User:152.163.100.70 05:43, 7 Apr 2005
The 2004 Vanity Fair article was pretty good. I don't recall what it had to say on Hawking being an atheist, but I may still have the article around somewhere. The general view that Hawking is a deist, with several quotes and references can be found on the Celebrity atheist list. -- Solipsist 21:02, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Dubious or in the process of checking

  • John Baskerville (1706-1775) - British printer, openly atheist, requested to be buried in unconsecrated ground.
    • His last request is about the only thing worth mentioning? -PDF
  • Steve Benson - American Pulitzer Prize-winning editorial cartoonist, grandson of former U. S. Secretary of Agriculture and LDS prophet Ezra Taft Benson.
    • This guy denounced the Church for covering up his grandfather's senility, then became an atheist. Not really important IMHO. On second thought, he may deserve a small place in the Others section... -PDF
  • George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron - British Romantic poet
    • Undoubtedly notable, but is there something else besides a scandalous life? - Anybody?
  • Ani DiFranco (1970-) - American progressive feminist singer, guitarist, and songwriter.
    • Very interesting person indeed, yet her atheism should be confirmed. Do her lyrics mention it?
  • Paul R. Ehrlich (1932-) - American entomologist, more known by his book The Population Bomb, and a founder of the Zero Population Growth group.
    • Yet another unconfirmed.
  • T. E. Lawrence (1888-1935) - (Lawrence of Arabia), British guerilla soldier and writer
    • No idea about this.
  • H. P. Lovecraft - American author of fantasy and horror fiction
    • Confirm this. The article says he had mystic beliefs, though it might mean he was *interested* in mystic beliefs (anthropologically).
  • John McCarthy - AI researcher and inventor of Lisp programming language^
    • Looks important, but not relevant. Quotes suggest a skeptic. Apparently a talkative guy, yet didn't say much on atheism.
  • Henry Morgentaler (1923-) - Canadian medical doctor and abortion rights activist. Founder of Humanist Association of Canada.
  • Roy Neuberger (1903-) - financier and art collector, his preference of wealth over spirituality estranges him from his son, who wrote a book on the need for spirituality in his life and rediscovering Judaism.
    • Interviews? Anything on the record? At best an "Others".
    • Found that some of his lyrics may be influenced by or discuss religion. I'm not familiar with his stuff, though, so I'm not sure to what extent.
  • Christopher Reeve - American actor, director, and writer
    • Confirm atheism. Seems like many people were included in this list only because they were non-Republican or not willing to thank God in public at every opportunity...
  • Gene Roddenberry (1921-1991) - American TV writer, producer, creator of Star Trek.
    • Isolated sentence in bio: "He was a secular humanist". ST fans needed to find traces of nonbelief in the series and movies.
  • Olive Schreiner - South African writer.
    • Confirm, especially literary themes.
  • Gore Vidal - American author
    • Needs confirmation.
  • Virginia Woolf - author and feminist
    • Nothing about atheism or religion in her bio. Writing topics?
    • Sould be noted that she is doing double time at List of pagans, atheism a major theme in many of her works, this seems to confirm it.
  • Philip Pullman (1946-) - British writer, author of the His Dark Materials fantasy trilogy, seen by many as a rebuttal to C. S. Lewis Cristian alegory Narnia.
    • Very likely candidate for "notable", if anyone can confirm his atheism. Imagine writing an anti-Christian children's book and turning it into a bestseller!

Unchecked so far

  • François de La Rochefoucauld - French writer and philosopher
  • George Orwell - British author and journalist
    • Probably was an atheist but very few quotes to prove it and his writings suggests he was attached to the traditions of religion rather then the beliefs. Not particularly notable for his views on the subject.
  • Niels Bohr(1885-1962) - Danish physicst who calculated the energy levels of Hydrogen and came up with the Bohr model of the atom.
  • Alfred Kinsey - I, SocratesJedi, have found several citations on the internet indicating his atheism, but have not yet verified. I intend to do some research at the university library on him tomorrow (and hopefully settle the question), but if someone wants to check this out before me I certainly wouldn't object. In any case, I added him to the list tenatively. So if you find otherwise, remove him.

References

You can find source information on several of these people on the List of atheists talk page and its archive... oh right, that's here. Philip Pullman for example already has several references.

Simon Bolivar would be worth some further investigation. He was excommunicated by the Catholic Church, in part for being an atheist (although this may be referring to his masonic connections, and it may have been politically motivated). As a founding farther of several Latin American states, he is potentially very notable as a counter to the history of the Conquistadors under the Catholic Church. -- Solipsist 18:40, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The net is awfully lacking in this respect. All I've found is rumors. Some say he was a mason, others say he was an atheist, most say he was accused of being an atheist by the Catholic Church (politically motivated as you say), and some Catholic revisionists say he was a devout church-going guy. I'm inclined to believe he was indeed a mason, which would put him in line with others at the time (cf José de San Martín, Argentina/Chile/Peru Libertador). I find it extremely unlikely to believe that he was a mason and a covert atheist --Pablo D. Flores 14:02, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I know what you mean. One of the better online references for this one in terms of credibility is , but it doesn't really say why or give details on any of the people mentioned. It might take a book to resolve it. -- Solipsist 23:40, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
My thoughts on this are that if the net is ambiguous on the topic, or there is insufficient information, he should be scratched off. A person like this would only be considered again if someone could provide sufficient information to back a claim of atheism or whatnot. --Comics 21:19, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Removed some names

Here are some names I removed, and why:

DJ Clayworth 02:07, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Albert Einstein was an atheist, not a pantheist, according to Albert Einstein: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press)
Clarence Darrow was an agnostic atheist, not an agnostic theist. There's no such thing as simply "agnostic".
Adraeus 19:03, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)


I removed

Known as "The Great Agnostic" during (and after) his lifetime, he was clearly, by his own frequent statements, agnostic not atheistic. An argument could be made for his being more deist or pantheist in outlook, but agnostic he was not. --KillerChihuahua 18:29, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Gene Roddenberry

Some quotes purportedly authored by Roddenberry:

"I condemn false prophets, I condemn the effort to take away the power of rational decision, to drain people of their free will--and a hell of a lot of money in the bargain. Religions vary in their degree of idiocy, but I reject them all. For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain."

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes."

Adraeus 19:03, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Note that these do not establish Roddenberry's atheism, just his healthy distaste for the more extreme outcroppings of theism. Criticizing religion and denying an "all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans" (assuming he made these quotes, of course) would still only establish him as a strong skeptic. JRM 02:45, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)

Other

I have removed the request for attention to this page, as I think it has sufficiently improved for the moment and is no longer in need of major cleanup. If anyone disagrees with this, please protest here. --Comics 21:11, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Deletion David Hume

I removed David Hume because, at least from what I've read, even though he was skeptic of miracles, the argument from design did make sense to him. Further reading on this, can be found at http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ515.HTM and http://www.vision-uk.org/jrnl/0001/bvdhume.html - User:168.243.215.234 06:03, 27 Mar 2005

This has been discussed before, although now it has been side-lined to the Old discussion page. I would say the ~erasmus site has no credibility at all. -- Solipsist 06:21, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I apologize, it seems Hume did shatter the Argument from Design. However, although some would say the logical outcome of his skepticism would be atheism, it still isn't quite clear to me whether he was one. Some online essays cite him as rather a Deist, but after reading how pragmatic he was, I'm more inclined to think he was indeed an atheist who would keep it to himself just to avoid troubles with the authorities of the time.