Talk:Holodomor - Misplaced Pages

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Section sizes

Section size for Holodomor (46 sections)
Section name	Byte count	Section total
(Top)	6,577	6,577
Etymology	4,152	4,152
History	14	83,760
Scope and duration	4,985	4,985
Causes	3,967	24,617
Low harvest	1,254	1,254
Collectivization, procurements, and the export of grain	6,378	6,378
Discrimination and persecution of Ukrainians	11,617	11,617
Peasant resistance	1,401	1,401
Regional variation	1,862	1,862
Repressive policies	683	23,772
Preceding the famine	7,675	7,675
During the famine	9,576	9,576
Near the end of and after the famine	5,838	5,838
Torgsin system	1,865	1,865
Cannibalism	2,929	2,929
Ukrainians in other republics	642	6,533
Kuban and the North Caucasus of Russia	5,312	5,312
Kazakhstan	579	579
Aftermath and immediate reception	1,933	1,933
Death toll	15,250	15,250
Genocide question	8,069	8,069
Soviet and Western denial and downplay	2,406	2,406
In modern politics	6,780	29,191
Government recognition of Holodomor	22,411	22,411
Remembrance	154	21,909
Ukraine	4,549	4,549
Germany	1,484	1,484
Canada	5,136	5,136
Poland	1,453	1,453
United States	6,329	6,329
On film	1,281	1,281
Vatican City	532	532
Holodomor memorials	991	991
In culture and the arts	29	2,148
Cinema	1,165	1,165
Literature	845	845
Theatre	109	109
See also	711	711
Notes	9,904	9,904
References	35	35
Bibliography	105,091	105,091
Further reading	150	23,562
Declarations and legal acts	406	406
Books and articles	23,006	23,006
External links	6,770	6,770
Total	304,285	304,285

"While scholars are in consensus that the cause of the famine was man-made"

Per WP:RS/AC, "a statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view". I'm not seeing this sourced anywhere. Can somehow source this or can it be changed? Thanks.Stix1776 (talk) 07:26, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

It's explained in the paragraph following the sentence you quote, and in more detail in Causes of the Holodomor. Some historians believe that it was "deliberately engineered", while others think it was an (unintended) "consequence of rapid Soviet industrialisation", and a third position is that both intentional and unintended factors came together. However, no serious historian seems to suggest that the famine was entirely or primary due to natural reasons (such as a severe drought) – hence the "consensus". Gawaon (talk) 08:36, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

So no source says it's "consensus", per WP:RS/AC? It seems that Wheatcroft and Tauger disagree that it's man-made, which explicitly speaks against "academic consensus".Stix1776 (talk) 16:21, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Hold up consensus isn't unanimity. Tauger is the only one who thinks it was natrual. Wheatcroft (and davis) are the ones who dispute his methodology. Not to mention they say explicitly that policy was the cause of the famine —blindlynx 17:00, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I've added a citation from Andriewsky 2015 historiography. The relevant section is:

Historians of Ukraine are no longer debating whether the Famine was the result of natural causes (and even then not exclusively by them). The academic debate appears to come down to the issue of intentions, to whether the special measures undertaken in Ukraine in the winter of 1932-‐33 that intensified starvation were aimed at Ukrainians as such. —blindlynx 17:25, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Plus the article states: "Wheatcroft notes that the Soviet extension of sown area may have exacerbated the problem, which Tauger also acknowledges." – So even Tauger seems to agree that the famine was partially man-made. Gawaon (talk) 18:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I've added another source. That said tauger is the only scholar who argues that its causes were natural and it is wp:undue to privilege one scholar out of all of the people working on this—blindlynx 21:43, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Blindlynx, would you mind putting a page number and quote with that source, because I'm unable to find what you're saying. The article I'm reading starts with "1".

In regards to Andriewsky, he literally states "Historians of Ukraine" as the beginning of the sentence. The article is about how historians of Ukraine treat the issue of the Holodomor. If you want to write "historians of Ukraine" in the lead, I'm fine for it. But nothing states academic consensus as stated in the lead. We're going to ignoring WP:RS/AC?Stix1776 (talk) 12:10, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

571 of the published page 5 of the pre-pub the first paragraph of the 'TERROR BY HUNGER' section. How on earth is historians of Ukraine being in agreement about an event in Ukraine's history not academic consensus? Especially given that the academic debate is not about this but the intentionallity of the famine and everyone researching this sees it as a result of government policy to some extent—blindlynx 15:09, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Tauger disagrees with other scholars about the size of the harvest. It seems that when he questions the term "man made" he is disagreeing with the position that the famine was intentional. TFD (talk) 12:52, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Well, but if so that would only show that he misunderstands the meaning of "man-made". An unintentionally man-made famine would still be man-made. Gawaon (talk) 13:46, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

He's mostly arguing that the human causes of the Holod don't set it apart from other most famines as most have similar levels of human causes—blindlynx 16:04, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

The number of human loses is not what defines if that was a genocide or not (can find some references for this claim).The intend as well as the points described in the Genocide Conventionn of 1948 do. Krispe13 (talk) 08:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Whether he understands the term correctly or not, he agrees that it was man made within the definition provided in this article. So that seems to mean there is a consensus, just disagreement over intention and whether ethnic Ukrainians were specifically targeted. TFD (talk) 16:17, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Exactly—blindlynx 17:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

@Blindlynx, I added the quote to the source. Is this the correct quote? If not, can you please update it.Stix1776 (talk) 04:44, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you!—blindlynx 15:08, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Added a short note in the beginning to highlight that the question is not only with regards to whether it was genocide or not, but also (assuming that it was the genocide) then what was the target group. Please review. Krispe13 (talk) 08:31, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Guys, I think the causes on the side of the article are not causes

Yeah, that's about it. They're not causes, but international reactions. AccomplishedTale7 (talk) 12:21, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean. The causes listed in the infobox are:

Industrialization policy during the First Five Year Plan
Whether it was intentional is debated by scholars

What point are you disputing? — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:44, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to say i changed that after seeing this —blindlynx 21:53, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah, well, that'll do it! — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Weak international reaction (considering first reports about starvation in May-June 1932 ) + soviet denials of hunger are a part of the reason for the high death toll. So it does belong there, but maybe there is a suggestion on how to improve the structure as currently it is more focused on "the starvation was known", but does little to cover soviet denials (take e.g. Walter Duranty, inviting foreign photographers and preparing set up villages for the French delegation etc.). Maybe a separate page to show how the press and internal materials from the archives were supporting or denying the claims in different countries? Krispe13 (talk) 08:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

suggestion of the separate page is based on the fact that stating that there was a genocide in 30s or even preserving memories of it was persecuted in USSR up till 80s, so the claim-denial timeline might eventually grow.

Krispe13 (talk) 08:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

we cannot derive this information from census data ourselves

User:HandThatFeeds you have reverted my edition saying "we cannot derive this information from census data ourselves", despite this information "between 1926 and 1939, the Ukrainian population increased by only 6.6%, whereas Russia and Belarus grew by 16.9% and 11.7% respectively" is derived from census data by yourselves. So if you have so much knowledge of wiki rules, find the information from reliable source and add it by yourself. Пинча (talk) 23:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

BTW what about this information: -- the article contains wrong numbers calculated by yourselves. So fix it too, please. Thank you. Пинча (talk) 23:26, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it's indeed not OR, but covered by WP:CALC, which says: "Routine calculations do not count as original research, provided there is consensus among editors that the results of the calculations are correct, and a meaningful reflection of the sources." I have checked the calculation and it's correct. And it's also true that we already have other such calculations in the article, at least the cited sentence about population growth. So I think the sentence is a useful addition and can be restored. What do you think, HandThatFeeds? Gawaon (talk) 04:50, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

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