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Current consensus (September 2024): In this RfC there was no consensus to remove the sentence in the lead which states that there is no evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes, consensus against stating that Khelif was assigned female at birth and consensus that sources presenting evidence of possible XY chromosomes are unreliable.

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RfC on weight of "misinformation" in lead

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Supporters seem mainly concerned with reflecting that other attention besides misinformation happened as a result of her victory, and some seemed supportive of the possibility of including mention of bullying/online abuse in addition to the less-severe "attention" wording. Many opposes to this were unconvincing. Some opposed "removing" mention of misinformation despite that not being the proposal. Others opposed any mention that anything happened besides misinformation, baldly asserting that saying that anything except misinformation existed would be "whitewashing" or dismissing sources because they cover both misinformation and other scrutiny.

On the other hand, there was little or no discussion among supporters for the proposed change to the second sentence, and some indicated willingness to keep the removed language. Some opposers mentioned sources justifying the "fueled by" language.

This RfC concerns the first two sentences of the lead's second paragraph. (snapshot at the time of writing: )

Should "Following Khelif's victory ... misinformation surfaced on social media about her gender. False assertions about her gender were fuelled by Khelif's disqualification from the 2023 Women's World Boxing Championships ..."

be changed to

"Following Khelif's victory ... she became the subject of widespread public attention and misinformation regarding her gender. Khelif had previously been disqualified from the 2023 Women's World Boxing Championships ..." JSwift49 13:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Discussion (RfC on weight of "misinformation" in lead)

I am arguing in support of this change. I believe "misinformation" is important to mention in the lead, but that the lead focuses too narrowly on it. Most reliable sources mention misinformation/false accusations, but these sources also include broader descriptions of what occurred:

• Reuters (already in lead) "Khelif has been at the centre of a debate about gender in sport..." and "Khelif and the row she has found herself embroiled in..."
• BBC (already in lead) "The participation of Algeria's Khelif and Taiwan's Lin has proved controversial given they were disqualified..."
• Associated Press (already in lead) "at the Games where she endured intense scrutiny in the ring and online abuse from around the world over misconceptions about her womanhood."
• Washington Post (also AP) "Algerian boxer Imane Khelif won a gold medal at Paris Olympics after facing scrutiny over misconceptions about her sex."
• NBC "at the center of a global debate over gender eligibility and fairness" and "continue to face intense scrutiny and false accusations"
• Forbes "A contentious fight over who should—and shouldn’t—be allowed to compete in women’s sports has materialized ... amid criticism over the participation of Algerian boxer Imane Khelif" and "Khelif’s participation at the Olympics has been a subject of intense scrutiny after she was disqualified..."
• Sports Illustrated "Having put a maelstrom of scrutiny behind her, Algeria's Imane Khelif is on top of the world." and "Khelif, 25, also addressed the speculation surrounding her gender earlier..."
• ABC (Australia) "moving one win away from what she calls the best response to the worldwide scrutiny she has faced over misconceptions about her gender."
• New York Times "that saw her become one of the stories of the Olympics due to accusations over her gender that she described as “bullying.”"
• The Independent "Having been born a woman and lived her entire life as one, Khelif was catapulted to the centre of a rabid debate over trans women in sport because her opponent, Angela Carini..."
• ESPN "A boxing match that lasted 46 seconds has dominated the conversation around the Paris Olympics in recent days and reignited the debate about who is eligible to compete in women's sports."
• Deutsche Welle "Despite there being no proof that Khelif is a transgender boxer, heated debates on social media are still ongoing." and "Looking at the comments... also reveal the extent of hate speech and disinformation being spread".
• CNN "Khelif had been the subject of global attention after defeating Italian boxer..."

Each source here includes phrases such as "scrutiny", "accusations" or "controversy", or that she prompted "attention" or a "debate". I had originally proposed to include "public scrutiny" in the lead based on the phrasing of five reliable sources above. Some editors raised concerns that "scrutiny" would legitimize or give undue weight toward the misinformation she received. While I disagree, I believe that "attention and misinformation" is a good compromise; it covers those who supported her, opposed her, had no strong opinion of her, weighed in on the women's sports debate because of her, et cetera, while ensuring misinformation also has due weight.

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong) the current text with "misinformation" only is accurate as of August 7 and was reverted/restored twice, not including by me. I did not see any Talk page consensus regarding this change, and there was no consensus in the discussion I later started , so I would not oppose removal of the sentences in question until a compromise is reached.

Please also note that a concurrent RfC is underway, though this concerns the last two sentences in lead paragraph 2. Feel free to ping me if you have any questions. JSwift49 13:32, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose the cherry picked sources (presented above) are clearly used to push a meaningless term (attention) that whitewashes what happened. She has been the subject of many things that we're not mentioning in the lead, including disinformation, harassment, bullying, attacks, slander, a hate campaign, online lynching, etc. Obviously, all of these terms and expressions can easily be sourced, so if anything, "misinformation" should be replaced with "disinformation" (a more precise term). M.Bitton (talk) 14:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  As I said before in our discussion, I have no problem with "widespread public attention and misinformation regarding her gender, including online abuse". JSwift49 14:11, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  What you said and keep repeating ad nauseam while ignoring what everyone else said is clearly irrelevant. M.Bitton (talk) 14:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  I will leave the conversation here as it has already been had. I will note that this editor has a history of asking the same question verbatim four or five times during the course of a discussion:

  JSwift49 14:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  Your repeated WP:ASPERSIONS give the true weight of your so-called argument. M.Bitton (talk) 14:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support She has been the subject of both disinformation and public scrutiny, and we should debunk the fake news without trivialising or denying the public debate. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Leave "misinformation" out (invited by the bot) There has been lots of information, mis-information, questions, impressions etc. out. To cherry pick / only describe the outright misinformation is a distortion. North8000 (talk) 14:02, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The RfC proposes to add widespread public attention alongside misinformation to the lead. Since several RSs shared by JSwift49 mention the "global debate over gender eligibility and fairness" sparked by Khelif at the Olympics, editors may wonder about the content of that debate: is it just bigotry and hate speech? In that case, "misinformation" would be enough. I believe there's been also a reasoned public debate about non-trivial, non-hateful issues: was the IOC's decision not to perform sex verification tests, that is, not to enquire about the athletes' gender as certified in their passports, a good decision? Some sports journalists and academics have questioned this decision and raised concerns about the safety of the athletes and the fairness of the competition. I don't have an opinion on the matter - I'm not particularly interested in sport or GENSEX - but I believe that NPOV dictates that we don't deny or trivialise a public debate that is reasonable and significant. So in the collapsible box I'm including some extracts from "voices" in that debate (except for the first one, which is an RS, they are all editorials and opinion commentaries, not RSs). I'm not proposing to use them as sources for the article on Khelif, but I feel that the RfC would be better informed if editors knew what this "widespread public attention" or "public debate" is about.

Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC) ; edited 10:59, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support. This seems like a reasonable and balanced description of what happened. While there was indeed a lot of misinformation (such as describing her as trans) and also abuse (such as curses and violent speech) against her, there are also legitimate concerns and public attention that do not fall into these categories. If someone wonders whether she has indeed XY chromosomes and/or elevated testosterone level that might give her unfair advantage, that is not misinformation and not abuse.

Vegan416 (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

What "legitimate concerns" and by whom? M.Bitton (talk) 14:50, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I already mentioned an example of such a concern. Do you want me to repeat it? I thought you are against unnecessary repetitions. And this concern was voiced by many people, including for example: the developmental biologist Dr. Emma Hilton here, the evolutionary biologist Colin Wright here, and the feminist author Helen Lewis here. Vegan416 (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Those were published long after the hate campaign (by the nobodies) had started. M.Bitton (talk) 15:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that the BBC, WSJ and the Atlantic are "nobodies". And what difference does it make here if it was published a week ago or two weeks ago??? Vegan416 (talk) 15:54, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Of they're not the "nobodies" (the ones who started it) that I was referring to. Something published after the event cannot be the cause of the event. M.Bitton (talk) 15:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

It's not an "Event" that ended. It's a continuing debate. And I didn't say anything about "causes". Nor doers JSwift49 suggestion here say anything about "causes". I only said "If someone wonders whether she has indeed XY chromosomes and/or elevated testosterone level that might give her unfair advantage, that is not misinformation and not abuse." Do you disagree with this statement? Vegan416 (talk) 16:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence is about what started it and the disinformation and hate campaign that followed (still ongoing).

If someone wonders anything that is unsubstantiated and damaging to a living person is abuse and misinformation (she knows this better than most and is taking legal action against the bullies). M.Bitton (talk) 16:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

You miss the point. JSwift wants to change the first sentence so it want talk only about the hate campaign but also about the legitimate concerns.

Also wondering "whether she has indeed XY chromosomes and/or elevated testosterone level that might give her unfair advantage" is definitely not misinformation, because it doesn't make any definitive assertion. The facts are the a claim was made by an international sporting organization that she has XY and/or elevated testosterone. Evidence for this claim was not made public. But contrary evidence was not made public either. In fact as far as I could see this claim was not even denied by Imane Khelif or the IOC. Correct me if I'm wrong on the last point. Can you show me a source where the IOC or Imane Khelif claim that she doesn't have XY chromosomes and elevated testosterone level? Vegan416 (talk) 16:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Please don't patronize me (I didn't miss anything). Unsubstantiated claims that are damaging to the reputation and well being of a living person are misinformation. Contrary to what you're claiming, she doesn't have to live up to some people's expectation of what a woman is or prove who she is to anyone, least of all the bullies. M.Bitton (talk) 16:43, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I didn't patronize you. If you claim to understand JSwift49 suggestion then it should be obvious to you that your statement that the current sentence is only talking about the hate campaign is irrelevant.

Again I refer you to the dictionary. For example (here and here). Misinformation is incorrect or misleading or wrong information. Unsubstantiated claims that were not refuted are undecided. Therefore they are not incorrect (nor correct). Therefore they are not misinformation. Furthermore, claims that are not even denied are sometimes regarded as correct, even in legal settings (where the bar for proof is much higher than in public debate) in many countries. I suggest you read about "Silence as admission". Anyway, this discussion became too long so I'm stopping here. If you wish to continue please do it on my talk page only. Vegan416 (talk) 17:23, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

If you claim to have read my comments, then it should be obvious to you that their suggestion whitewashes the misinformation. I'm not interested in WP:OR, especially when the reputation of a living person is concerned. M.Bitton (talk) 17:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I responded yo you here User talk:Vegan416/DiscussionPage#Response to Bitton re Khelif. And I'll continue to respond only there. Vegan416 (talk) 17:54, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

@Vegan416 I agree, your sources are good examples of non-misinformation attention, and help to corroborate what reliable sources already say about Khelif receiving said attention. JSwift49 16:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment, the above list of sources strikes me as a call to original research as by my reading they concern themselves with discussing eligibility standards in general rather than constituting reasonable fact based discussions about whether Khelif was eligible. These are not sources which support the proposal that there was anything other than misinformation in regards to Khelif. TarnishedPath 01:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  I don't have time for a detailed response. But 2 quick points: 1. I know what OR is. And this sources are definitely not OR. But I have no idea what "a call to OR" is. Can you refer me to a policy page which explain this term? 2. These sources are not discussing eligibility standards in general only, but also in reference to the possibility that Khelif has some form of DSD. 3. Do you suggest that these sources are engaging in "misinformation"? Vegan416 (talk) 07:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  "but also in reference to the possibility that Khelif has some form of DSD" for which there is no reliable evidence. So these sources don't assert that Khelif has DSD which I would expect because there is no reliable evidence for it. So the usage of these sources is in fact a call to original research. You want to draw connections between generalised discussion of eligibility of persons with DSD and Khelif when they have not been demonstrated to have DSD by any reliable sources. In short there are no reliable sources which assert that Khelif has DSD/XY chromosomes/high testosterone/etc. Any claim that they do is misinformation or disinformation. Reasonable concerns are always based on verifiable evidence. If there is no verifiable evidence there is no reasonableness. Therefore it is only appropriate to use the word 'misinformation' or 'disinformation' about claims concerning Khelif's gender or any other medical condition for which no reliable evidence has been presented. TarnishedPath 08:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  1. Since you ignored my request to explain what a "a call to original research" even means, and a google search didn't find any mention of this expression in wikipedia policy pages, I'll just ignore this part of your response, as clearly wikipedia doesn't have any policy regarding it (whatever it means).
  2. The sentence "these sources don't assert that Khelif has DSD" is a strawman, since nobody here claimed that these sources assert that, and nobody here wants to assert that either. My only claim here is that publicly discussing the possibility that Khelif has DSD and expressing concerns about the possible implications of this eventuality (as the sources I brought, and many others, do) is definitely NOT misinformation or disinformation under the circumstances of this case.
  3. I strongly disagree that "reasonable concerns" in public debate can only be based on "verifiable evidence". This claim is completely baseless. Reasonable concerns in public debate can be based also on reasonable suspicions and doubts, and in fact they are often based only on such basis in many cases. The only thing that wouldn't be reasonable in the absence of verifiable evidence is to express these concerns as assertions in a definitive language, which the sources I brought do not do even by your own admission.

  Vegan416 (talk) 09:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  Per Google the definition of reasonable is: "having sound judgement; fair and sensible. Rumours, gossiping and innuendo which are pushed in the absence of evidence do not meet that definition. Now if these sources can't assert that Khelif has DSD, any argument that seeks insert language that implies that there is reasonable concerns about her gender using these sources as justification is making an argument based on original research because you are interpreting out of the sources that which is not spelled out explicitly in the wording. Quite frankly it strikes me as WP:POVPUSHING to be making fringe arguments on the basis of sourcing which doesn't explicitly back you up. TarnishedPath 10:47, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  The reasonableness of the possibility of DSD is not based on "rumors, gossiping and innuendo" as I have shown amply in other places here. Do you want me to repeat that? And the sources I brought do back me up in the claim that there is a reasonable possibility that Khelif has some form of DSD, and that if that possibility is true then it might give her unfair advantage. Here are some quotes:

  The WSJ source: "We can therefore deduce that Imane Khelif was disqualified for having XY chromosomes." "The most probable DSD for Imane Khelif is 5-alpha reductase deficiency, or 5-ARD. People with 5-ARD have XY chromosomes and testes that produce testosterone." "Many with 5-ARD are raised as girls, only discovering their condition at puberty when their internal testes trigger male puberty. This results in masculine features and a physical advantage over women in sports."

  The Atlantic source: "But both still face questions, a year after the International Boxing Association (IBA) publicly raised the issue, over whether they have XY chromosomes and a disorder of sexual development—also known as an intersex condition—which give  them an unfair advantage over other women." "Why have the IOC’s statements been so misleading and nebulous? Perhaps because it does not want to compromise the athletes’ privacy by discussing their medical details without consent. And perhaps because the IOC’s leaders are not prepared to defend their own rules, which state that even if Lin and Khelif do have XY chromosomes, they are allowed to compete in Olympic women’s boxing." "A simple cheek swab could clear this up, revealing the presence (or not) of a second X chromosome. If either athlete was XY instead, she could have further genetic testing to get a precise diagnosis and determine if it affected her ability to participate fairly. If Lin and Khelif are straightforwardly female athletes with XX chromosomes, they could have appealed their IBA bans to the Court of Arbitration for Sport". "This is why the IOC’s insistence that Lin and Khelif were “born as women”—a phrase banned by its own guidelines, but never mind—is unenlightening. With 5ARD, a child can be registered as female at birth, but later develop a significant athletic advantage during puberty from the effects of testosterone".

  Dr. Emma Hilton from the BBC source: "says Dr Emma Hilton, a developmental biologist who studies genetic disorders. She is also a trustee of the Sex Matters charity, which argues Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting shouldn’t be competing until further testing is done." "When it comes to Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting, we don’t have enough information to know if they have a DSD that would need to be regulated".

  So we have 3 reputable sources discussing the possibility that Khelif has DSD quite seriously, and definitely not as if this is only based on "rumors, gossiping and innuendo". Do you suggest that these articles are "misinformation"?

  Actually this gives me a better idea how to answer the other RfC about the lead. Maybe following the BBC we should replace the sentence "No medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes or elevated levels of testosterone has been published" with "At this stage it is unknown if Khelif has DSD that would give her unfair advantage" or something like that. Vegan416 (talk) 12:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  If there is no reliable evidence then the possibility is entirely based on "rumors, gossiping and innuendo". I'm not going to waste my time and read the rest of your WP:POVPUSH. TarnishedPath 12:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  I strongly disagree with your false dichotomy here. Life is more complicated than the simplistic binary view you present here. And I totally reject your false accusation of WP:POVPUSH. Anyway if you refuse to read the sources then there is really no point in continuing this discussion. Vegan416 (talk) 12:21, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  I already read enough previously to have a gist of the content. You continue to push a position which is not based on "reasonable concerns" while stating that it is. TarnishedPath 12:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  If your impression is that these articles treat the possibility that K has DSD as "rumors, gossiping and innuendo" then you clearly didn't read enough of the articles and you clearly didn't get the gist correctly. Also you are the one here who is engaging in WP:POVPUSH. You are trying to push the view that the mere discussion of the possibility that K has DSD is "misinformation", when you don't have any reliable source that asserts she doesn't have DSD. Vegan416 (talk) 06:47, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  you don't have any reliable source that asserts she doesn't have DSD. is asking editors to prove a negative, which is not a reasonable application of 'burden of proof' or request to make. I might as well assert we should be allowed to discuss the possibility that you are a group of monkeys hammering at a typewriter instead of a human editor because we don't have any reliable sources that assert you aren't. The most appropriate policy to link here is I believe WP:EXCEPTIONAL JustAnotherCompanion (talk) 07:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  No. The claim that it is possible that K has DSD is not an exceptional claim at all. As I have shown this possibility is being seriously discussed in highly reputable sources. As for your ridiculous monkey parable, I deny that I am a group of monkeys, does K or the IOC deny she has DSD? Vegan416 (talk) 07:28, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yes it is entirely an exception claim given there are no reliable sources which assert that they do.

  "does K or the IOC deny she has DSD?". We don't insert content into Misplaced Pages articles on the basis that it must be possible because a BLP hasn't denied it. It would be both a WP:BLP and a WP:NOR violation if we edited like that. TarnishedPath 09:27, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  You are wrong. I (and JSwift and Gitz and others) have shown in the discussions here many reliable sources that say it might be possible that K has DSD. And you are strawmaning again as I never said that we should insert an assertion that K has DSD into the article. Vegan416 (talk) 10:05, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  Referring to others who are engaged in POVPUSH as backup isn't the victory you think it is. TarnishedPath 10:13, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  Do you suggest that the articles I brought from BBC, WSJ and Atlantic are engaged in POVPUSH? Vegan416 (talk) 10:16, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  Also your using the language of "victory" is classic BATTLEGROUND behavior. Vegan416 (talk) 10:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  No, I'm suggesting that YOU are engaged in POVPUSH by seeking to selectively use quotes from articles which don't state that Khelif has DSD as evidence that there is reasonable concerns about their eligibility to fight on the basis that they might have DSD. TarnishedPath 10:22, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  How can you say that if you didn't even read those articles? These article are actually saying what I said. That there is a possibility that K has DSD and if that turns out to be the case then there are reasonable concerns about their eligibility to fight, Vegan416 (talk) 10:27, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, why are you misrepresenting the point of contention? As I've already said at least a couple of times, no one is arguing that we should insert content into Misplaced Pages articles about her alleged DSDs. We are suggesting that we should revove content that implies or suggests that she doesn't have DSDs. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  @TarnishedPath, re I'm not going to waste my time and read the rest of your WP:POVPUSH. Editors should stop accusing other editors they disagree with of POV-pushing. It is not at all clear who is disregarding sources and casting aspersions to push a POV on this article. We already have an open thread at ANI for discussing these sorts of issues - please keep them off the article talk page. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:16, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  Leaving aside the call to original research accusation, which I don't understand, I also don't understand why you complain that the sources in the collapsible box concern themselves with discussing eligibility standards in general rather than constituting reasonable fact based discussions about whether Khelif was eligible. No discussion about whether Khelif was eligible could ever be "reasonable" or "fact based" because it is obvious and undisputed that she was eligible. However, Khelif was eligible under the IOC's standards (the only ones that matter) and those standards are open to debate. They allow athletes with DSD to compete in boxing alongside other women (if I'm not mistaken, they would also allow transgender women to compete, as the athletes' gender is based on their passport). Since it is possible that Khelif has a form of DSDs and since certain forms of DSDs can have a significant impact on athletic performance, there's been a public debate as to whether the IOC standards have given due consideration to the safety of other athletes and the fairness of the competition. Some editors (myself included) believe that mentioning this debate in the lead is appropriate; others disagree. But why do those who disagree feel it necessary to deny the debate's existence, insinuate that it is transphobic and hate-driven, and call its inclusion "original research" and a "violation of the BLP"? Given the extensive coverage of this debate in RS, I truly don't get it. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

  They allow athletes with DSD to compete in boxing alongside other women. Without relying on original research, how is it relevant that the IOC allows athletes with DSD to complete? I've not seen any reliable sources which state that Khelif has DSD. TarnishedPath 01:38, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  No reliable source "states" that she has DSDs, but many relieble sources mention that possibility. E.g., The Indipendent ("This raises the question of what differences in sex development are") , BBC ("critics, including some of their opponents at Paris 2024, have speculated that perhaps the fighters have DSD"), BBC ("We do not know if Khelif and Lin are athletes with DSD because the full results of the tests are confidential, and the fighters are yet to declare them"), Times of Israel ("Unconfirmed media reports have suggested the two athletes may have been born with differences in sex development"), NBC ("it's not known whether either of the boxers has these genetic variations"). Initially the IOC said that Khelif was not a DSD case, but later retracted the statement . As shown by the sources in the collapisble box, sport journalists and academics discuss the opportunity and consequences of allowing intersex athletes to compete in female boxing competitions in connection with Imane Khelif. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:10, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  If no reliable sources state it, we don't cover it and certainly not in the lead. We don't deal in pushing rumours and innuendo on WP:BLPs. TarnishedPath 09:29, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  No one has ever suggested mentioning the possibility that it has DSD in the lead. If I am wrong, please provide a diff. If I am not wrong, please stop arguing with a strawman and misrepresenting my arguments. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:24, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  I said that No discussion about whether Khelif was eligible could ever be "reasonable" or "fact based" because it is obvious and undisputed that she was eligible. I must correct myself, since on 4 August the Guardian reported The gender eligibility of the two boxers remains unclear. I think the Guardian is wrong - Khelif's eligibility under IOC's rules has never been in doubt - but my claim that no RS has ever disputed her eligibility was wrong. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as attempts to WP:WHITEWASH and normalize the discrimination faced by the subject. The sources pretty clearly state that the "debate" was spurned by the disinformation (including one of the quotes in the OP, "...after facing scrutiny over misconceptions about her sex"). The proposal to change "False assertions about her gender were fuelled by Khelif's disqualification from the 2023 Women's World Boxing Championships ..."" is not at all touched on in the rationale (which gives the optics of a backdoor removal/change), and changing it would remove vital needed context. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  15:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  That is not the case with all or even a majority of sources.

  Also, looking at the AP article, the quote "endured intense scrutiny in the ring and online abuse from around the world over misconceptions about her womanhood" leaves it uncertain whether the scrutiny is tied to misconceptions. A following line, "world leaders, major celebrities and others who have questioned her eligibility or falsely claimed she was a man", sheds some light on this: questioning eligibility is treated separately by the AP from false claims.

  Happy to touch on sentence 2: I didn't see it as a significant change given attention/misinformation was already mentioned. I will add it to the RfC for clarity. JSwift49 15:19, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  Please don't refactor comments after they've been replied to. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  15:21, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  No worries, I'll mention it here then: The "fueled by" phrasing comes from the AP article's headline, which violates WP:HEADLINE. The article said "It stems from" the disqualification, where "it" refers to "hateful scrutiny" in the previous paragraph, not false accusations.

  I had regardless thought the context was enough to make the lead more concise, but another option I'd support would be "...widespread public attention and misinformation regarding her gender. This stemmed from Khelif having previously been disqualified...", to make the connection explicit. JSwift49 15:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  I think Jules Boykoff and Dave Zirin summed it very well:

  In an invented “controversy” whipped up by an assortment of transphobes, right-wingers, and fascists (and proliferated by a coterie of useful idiots), Khelif was viciously targeted after her first-round knockout of Angela Carini of Italy.

  M.Bitton (talk) 15:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  An opinion article from a partisan source should certainly not be given WP:UNDUE weight to determine the language in the lead. JSwift49 16:59, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  A partisan source, that is also agreed to be reliable as per the perennial sources link. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:54, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

  Adding on, in The Independent, JSwift omits the opening sentence "...after her 46-second victory sparked an international gender row amid a frenzy of misinformation."

  SI additionally contains the following which was ommitted: "Following her round of 16 win over Italy's Angela Carini, Khelif became the subject of wild speculation and falsehoods surrounding her gender; she had been disqualified from the International Boxing Association's 2023 world championships for failing an unspecified gender-eligibility test."

  This, plus Drmies' quote from PBS below should be enough to counter the select quotes used in JSwift's !vote. I'd also rather not have to provide quotes from each source. ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  18:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  Here's the thing: I, like you, support misinformation remaining where it is, because I agree that misinformation was consistently described in these articles. Therefore, I didn't even bother to include quotes describing "misinformation", because that's not the dispute here.

  However, we cannot ignore that reliable sources describe misinformation as only part of what happened. Even looking at The Independent, "amid" a frenzy of misinformation means that misinformation did exist, but it does not support that the discourse was only limited to misinformation. Or Sports Illustrated describes both that "scrutiny" and "wild speculation and falsehoods" occurred. JSwift49 18:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

• No. Plenty of good sourcing for "misinformation"--removing it is whitewashing. I'm not going to list the plethora of sourcing, but here, from PBS, titled "Algerian boxer Imane Khelif wins gold at Olympics after enduring abuse fueled by misinformation". Drmies (talk) 17:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  I support misinformation remaining where it is, don't want to remove it! But, I propose adding "attention" as well to more closely/completely match with reliable sources.

  (Also, citing headlines violates WP:HEADLINE.) JSwift49 18:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

  There must be a misunderstanding. The RfC does not propose to replace or remove "misinformation". It proposes to add "widespread public attention", meaning that alongside fake news and hate speech there were also legitimate concerns and meaningful public debate about eligibility standards in women's boxing competitions. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. It seems that the crux here is the "False assertions about her gender were fuelled by" statement, and the RfC actually doesn't touch on this, but cherry-picks up sources to reword the sentence to get rid of this. Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 22:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

This comment has some merit. I'd prefer the original text (slightly reworded per t/p discussion): "Following Khelif's victory over Italy's Angela Carini at the 2024 Olympics, Khelif faced intense public scrutiny over her eligibility for the women's category, including online abuse and false claims that she was transgender. False assertions about her gender were fuelled by Khelif's disqualification...". However, the point of the RfC (as I understand it) is not to remove "False assertions about her gender were fuelled by", but rather to mention that there has also been (legitimate, non-trivial and non-hateful) "public scrutiny", "public attention", "public debate" (or similar expressions). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 22:54, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

What you quoted is not the original text, it's part of what the OP is proposing (you happen to agree with it and have !voted). I prefer the stable version. M.Bitton (talk) 23:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I was referring to the original draft of the proposed edit. However, I don't agree that the one you linked is the "stable version". The stable version of the lead was this one. It was changed with this edit and this edit. The first one was immediately challanged by Deathlibrarian here and restored by TarnishedPath without a clear consensus on the talk page. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

You didn't address what they said. Instead, you used their !vote to advertise what you want the lead to look like. If you want people to pay attention to what was said in the previous discussion, then link to it and let them read it. M.Bitton (talk) 23:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

There has been exactly zero legitimate public scrutiny. To state that there has been legitimate public scrutiny is to state that there is any legitimacy to disinformation about Khelif's gender. TarnishedPath 08:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree, I should have put that rationale in the RfC originally. The crux for me is that sources describe other things besides "misinformation", and that both "misinformation" and "attention" should be included. I used the quotes solely to support "attention" since everyone already agrees "misinformation" is supported by RS.

Would something like "...widespread public attention and misinformation regarding her gender. This stemmed from Khelif having previously been disqualified..." work, do you think? JSwift49 23:05, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

No, per all the reasons that I have mentioned in my !vote and the countless discussions about this. M.Bitton (talk) 23:11, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

No. How many more editors are going to have to tell you that you're cherry-picking the sources before you WP:LISTEN? ― "Ghost of Dan Gurney" (talk)  23:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain? As I said here I chose to not include "misinformation" in the quotes because I'm not seeking to remove it, just prove the sources say something else in addition to misinformation. Kind of like my quotes don't include that Khelif is a boxer because no one is disputing Khelif is a boxer. So I'm confused about how it's cherry picking but I'd like to know so I don't make a mistake in future. JSwift49 23:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - Changing it to remove that the controversy was completely bunk generated by anti-trans voices is WP:WHITEWASHing what happened. Also is good to point out that false allegations of gender are what fueled her disqualification, should not separate that dependent fact. Bluethricecreamman (talk)

• Oppose, there is nothing wrong with the current version and the proposal seeks to soften the langague in what appears to be an attempt to at least partially WP:WHITEWASH what occured, using cherry picked sources as a justification. TarnishedPath 04:27, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comment, pinging @Barnards.tar.gz, @Blindlynx, @Fanny.doutaz, @Gitz6666, @Iluvalar, @JSwift49, @JackkBrown and @M.Bitton who were involved in the directly related discussion at Talk:Imane_Khelif#2nd_lead_paragraph:_"public_scrutiny"_vs._"misinformation". TarnishedPath 14:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)
• oppose how is articulating the core cause of the 'accusations', 'controversy', 'scrutiny' or whatever focusing to narrowly!? The crux of this whole thing is that disinfo fueled transphobia, there is no reason to minimize that—blindlynx 19:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  Let's assume (for argument's sake) your point, that a reaction solely caused by misinformation should not be mentioned separately from misinformation.

  Six of the thirteen sources still describe the IBA's disqualification as a cause of the controversy and/or misinformation toward Khelif. Three more sources say these reactions was due to Carini's withdrawal and CNN mentions both the fight and the DQ contributed. Sources support that the IBA is shady, and Carini apologized for her actions, but neither of these is misinformation. So if this means misinformation wasn't the only cause of the reactions, or (as I originally argued) the only reaction toward her that sources describe, don't we need to account for everything else?

  Two sources only say the reactions were due to misinformation/misconceptions , though each also uses broader terms to describe the reactions to her. The NYT article doesn't really take a stance, but notes she describes accusations as "bullying".. JSwift49 23:39, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

  No, we do not. Specifically we should not have WP:FALSEBALANCE between the core cause and other events surrounding this. Disinfo about someones gender is clearly the main cause of scrutiny or whatever you want to call it of their gender identity. Saying it was just a part of it is minimizing what's going on—blindlynx 22:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Will be largely stepping back here as have already weighed in a lot, though I request that whoever closes this RfC also take into account the previous Talk discussion dealing with two earlier drafts of my proposal, as votes are still being cast there as well. JSwift49 13:32, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose all changes suggested above, and in particular any use of the word "attention" or "scrutiny" or any comparable synonyms in this context, in any way, shape, or form; the previous text is ideal. "Attention" is extremely strange and stilted language in this context; because this is something highly WP:BLP-sensitive dispute, our most important responsibility is to make the unambiguous conclusion reached by sources (ie. that this is a misinformation campaign) as clear as possible. Beyond that, I'm unimpressed with the sources presented above - the quotes are pulled out of context and do not even reflect the sources listed, but even without that, initial WP:BREAKING news is often extremely cautiously worded or contains vague statements. When later and more in-depth coverage reaches a clear and precise conclusion, it is inappropriate to try and use a few of the more cautious or vague sentences in initial coverage to try and water it down. The highest-quality sources here reach an unambiguous conclusion that the overarching events are a misinformation campaign, which means we should present that clearly. --Aquillion (talk) 08:30, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

  It is actually very hard to find an RS that mentions "abuse" (fake news, misinformation, etc.) without also mentioning legitimate "debate" (controversy, scrutiny, public attention, etc.). The point of this RfC is whether we should only mention "misinformation" and "false assertions", as the current lead does, or whether we should also mention "public attention" or "public scrutiny", as the overwhelming majority / near totality of RSes do. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 17:05, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  BS medical speculations about a living person cannot and will never ever be considered as a debate, let alone a legitimate one. We've been through this a thousand times and we all know what the so-called point of this RfC is: to legitimize the BS and further victimize Khelif. M.Bitton (talk) 19:06, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  If Khelif has DSDs, then writing a Misplaced Pages article suggesting that she doesn't is not only poor WP editing, but also another way to further victimise her: if one says "you were abused because they think you have DSDs, which is false", and you do have DSDs, then they are not being helpful; they are implying that having DSDs is a fault or a guilt that would justify the abuse you've suffered. Given the IOC's eligibility standards (based on gender as certified in the passport), Khelif was fully eligible to compete in the Olympics even if she has DSDs, so pushing the POV that she doesn't have DSDs is not in her interest.

  As for the content of the debate, it was not about BS medical speculations. Many journalists and experts simply assumed that it was likely that she has DSDs and that the important point to discuss was whether a woman with DSDs should be allowed to compete with other women. The RSes do not seem to despise this debate as much as you do, e.g., "she faced an extraordinary amount of scrutiny from world leaders, major celebrities and others who have questioned her eligibility or falsely claimed she was a man. It has thrust her into a larger divide over changing attitudes toward gender identity and regulations in sports" (PBS); "A contentious fight over who should—and shouldn’t—be allowed to compete in women’s sports has materialized during the Paris Olympics amid criticism over the participation of Algerian boxer Imane Khelif" (Forbes); see sources in the collapsible box. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 20:42, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  If Khelif has DSDs please refrain from violating BLP. M.Bitton (talk) 20:57, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  "Many journalists and experts simply assumed that it was likely that she has DSDs and that the important point to discuss was whether a woman with DSDs should be allowed to compete with other women".

  If they are doing that them they are speaking in the absense of reliable evidence and their assumptions are on the basis of speculation concerning a medical diagnosis of DSD. Given the intersection of the BLP, GENSEX and Medical CTOP areas, very strong sourcing is required for any diagnosis or speculation about diagnosis. I.e. WP:MEDRS sourcing. TarnishedPath 23:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, but journalists, experts and other public figures are not bound by Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines: they are free to debate the adequacy of the IOC's eligibility criteria in light of the Khelif case without our permission. This RfC proposes adding "widespread public attention" alongside "misinformation", it does not propose including any diagnosis or speculation about diagnosis. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:15, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  If Khelif has DSDs is you violating the BLP policy by speculating about the medical condition of a living person. M.Bitton (talk) 00:18, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  Could you please point out where WP:BLP prohibits making hypotheses about the medical conditions of a living person?

  Given that multiple RSes mention or discuss the possibility that she has DSDs, prohibiting WP editors from taking it into account could hinder our ability to write an informed and balanced BLP. For example, if you had considered this possibility, you might have realised that framing this BLP to suggest or imply that Khelif does not have DSD could be harmful and damaging to her. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:37, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  @M.Bitton, if you believe that medical speculations about a living person cannot and will never ever be considered as a debate, let alone a legitimate one and a BLP violation, then will you be nominating Age and health concerns about Joe Biden for deletion?

  Personally, I think that medical speculations about a living person sometimes are legitimate topics for public debate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose all changes above. The quotes above are completely out of context and should never have been added. The RFC if passed is going to NPOV the article further. The whole RFC is jaundiced and should never be created in the first place. All its going to do is burden this women for the rest of her life. Why even post this when the event itself is just days old. There is no historical balance or analysis here. It is essentially a reflection of the culture wars and has no place on Misplaced Pages. scope_creep 01:19, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support for similar reasons as other Supporters. We're not here to adjudicate the political controversy or what effect it might have on the article's subject. We're here to report what reliable sources say. Nautical Mongoose (talk) 15:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

  The current lead is based on what the reliable sources say, while taking into account the other important policies (BLP, etc.). M.Bitton (talk) 19:11, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is a classic case of a coordinated online harassment campaign. To point to another one, we describe Gamergate (harassment campaign) as a harassment campaign, and we say in Anita Sarkeesian's article that she was a target of harassment. We don't say she was subject to "scrutiny", "attention", or other euphemistic terms. Because underneath all the confusion and circus is a set of completely baseless claims that serve to fuel the harassment of a living person.

I do think the lead understates the severity of the harassment campaign, but this suggestion does not help. However well-intentioned, the effect of it is to unduly legitimize the disinformation and harassment. We have a responsibility to not further proliferate online harassment campaigns against living people. I strongly hope that the closer will do the right thing and prioritize the relevant policies, especially WP:BLP, in their decision. PBZE (talk) 05:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose (here from WT:SPORTBIO): the current wording is better because it makes clear that the misinformation that has been spread about Khelif is misinformation. Hatman31 (he/him · talk · contribs) 18:01, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
• Comment: I changed False assertions about her gender to False claims that Khelif is male as the former seemed too vague. If we are going to say that an assertion is false, we should tell the reader what is false about it. PBS puts it succinctly: " faced an extraordinary amount of scrutiny from world leaders, major celebrities and others who have questioned her eligibility or falsely claimed she was a man." —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:23, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for that. From what I've seen, the concerns have nothing to do with her personal gender (gender role, gender identity, gender expression) and everything to do with her physical biology (particularly her hormones and chromosomes). WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:39, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

  What I've argued elsewhere is that it is a mischaracterisation to frame language in such a way to suggest that such concerns have any legitimacy given there is no reliable evidence. TarnishedPath 01:31, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

  I wonder if it might equally be a mischaracterization to frame language in such a way as to suggest that such concerns don't have any legitimacy, given there is no reliable evidence either way. It might be difficult, but if we could find a way to describe this situation without "suggesting" anything, that would IMO be the best outcome. People are, in most legal systems, considered innocent until proven guilty, but that doesn't mean that society must assume that everyone is binary until proven intersex. The two are not really comparable, because it's not wrong to be intersex. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:45, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

  Well if any concerns aren't based on evidence, I'd say that they are entirely unreasonable. The best way to not suggest anything, would simply be not to address it, which we don't at present with the current prose simply stating that there was misinformation concerning Khelif's "gender and eligibility to compete". I don't think we should be stating anything else unless we have a medical diagnosis from her treating doctor (which isn't going to happen) or a statement from Khelif herself, as relayed by reliable sources. TarnishedPath 07:51, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to create and split off new article "2024 Olympic Boxing Controversy"

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is a rough presumptive consensus to split. Editors raised concerns about content related to this controversy being split across three articles, and no compelling arguments that this status is acceptable were made. This necessarily means there is a consensus to merge all content somewhere: either Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics or a new page. Supporters of splitting to a new page raised concerns about the size of Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics. Opposers noted that the content is currently only a small portion of that page and other parts can be trimmed easily, but failed to establish an actual consensus (via either discussion or normal editing) to actually trim anything there and failed to address how consolidating information from this article and Lin Yu-ting would affect the size of that page. I therefore find a consensus to split to a new article, with the qualification that this consensus presumes the current shape of Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics, and substantial changes to that page may cause this consensus to give way to one in favor of consolidating everything there. (non-admin closure) —Compassionate727  19:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Currently material for this is split between Imane Khelif, Lin_Yu-ting, and Concerns_and_controversies_at_the_2024_Summer_Olympics#Women's_boxing_controversy.

its probably notable/useful enough to consolidate this information into a broader article, and link some of the background information to such an article Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:21, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics does look to be quite long and can probably do with some splitting off of content. My only suggestion at this point in time is that you leave messages on the other articles' talk pages to make editors there aware of this splitting proposal. TarnishedPath 02:37, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Support I'd say this is a good solution Originalcola (talk) 10:54, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Support - The proposed split, is acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 17:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

My concern with that is that it will create new venue for the POV pushers. M.Bitton (talk) 17:45, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton, I'd presume that such article would discuss the controversy in a slightly more generalised manner. I'd hope that would help ease the pushing of BLP violations on Imane Khelif article. TarnishedPath 23:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@TarnishedPath: let's hope so. M.Bitton (talk) 01:28, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Support per nom seefooddiet (talk) 03:20, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Support There is enough material for a stand-alone article. Some of the sources in the collapsible box about public debates on eligibility standards in women's boxing competitions]] could come in handy for the new article. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 07:38, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Support because it's being reported as its own topic. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 11:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 21:36, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support as a WP:SIZESPLIT. The topic is independently notable.—Alalch E. 09:40, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: It seems very unlikely to me that this controversy will have any significant or lasting coverage; I would be very surprised if any in-depth coverage happens after this calendar year. The controversy is a very newsy thing; it drew a lot of a attention for a very brief period, but in ten years no one is going to think it was important outside of the context it's in here. Also it's not like this article is unmanageably long or anything. --JBL (talk) 21:32, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I can see the argument for it, but I find I JBL's reasoning convincing. It was very notable while it was being breathlessly reported on every day, and it still retains some interest for many people no doubt, but its relevance and is dropping rapidly as we speak and I don't really see the point in beginning a new article now. AntiDionysius (talk) 23:18, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Support: The subject is long enough, and certainly complicated enough, to warrant its own article. I don't believe that the 2024 Olympic Boxing Controversy was some sort of 'flash in the pan' moment of fleeting relevance, but rather that it will have long-running consequences on women's sports as a whole. Plus there may be more information to come to light re: any of the factors that have made this the complicated issue it is, which would make the article even longer. Ridiculopathy (talk) 05:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Support as a WP:SIZESPLIT.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 07:27, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: this isn't a lasting controversy. Zenomonoz (talk) 09:11, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Support, as with the defamation lawsuits, this will need its own article. Should be titled 2024 Olympics boxing controversy, though, because the current proposition has unnecessary capital letters. —Mjks28 (talk) 23:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the removal of excess capital letters from the proposed change. TarnishedPath 23:41, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. A split would take the recent spat out of its context, which follows on directly from the 2023 nonsense with the IBA, and recontextualise it as a thing in itself. I also worry that taking the coverage out of a BLP, and into a non-BLP article, could encourage further speculation and BLP violations. The "controversy" seems to be based on absolutely nothing substantial but giving it its own article allows people to point at the article and say "Well, it must be a thing if it has its an article on Misplaced Pages. There's no smoke without fire, you know". I see people saying that this is a complicated issue but is it really? There seems to be even less to it than meets the eye. Every element of the accusations that looks like it might possibly have some substance to it melts away into nothing when you try to work out what is really being alleged, based on what and by whom. The article isn't even that big, so size is not pushing us towards a split. Let's keep it all in the BLP so we don't forget that this isn't about a "controversy". It is about a living person who's only "crime" is that of upsetting some guys in Russia. Giving its own article reifies it as a thing, distinct from the harassment of the victim, Khelif, which is the only substantial thing here. If it becomes this generation's Gamergate then I guess we will have to split it eventually, but it probably won't, and we don't want to help it to become that, so let's not split it unless we really have to. --DanielRigal (talk) 00:37, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. This discussion probably should have taken place at Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics—I was confused why we were invoking WP:SIZESPLIT for a biography article <1900 words. The unwieldy length of Concerns (~16,000 words) article seems mostly a consequence of WP:RECENTISM, and could be solved by dividing the article into its constituent sections, or simply waiting to learn which of the controversies covered actually have sustained notability, and then covering them more proportionately. The content about Khelif and Yu-ting only takes up 800 words, so splitting this particular topic out would do very little to manage its length (especially because we'd still need a summary/excerpt in its place). –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 20:05, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

  @RoxySaunders, I agree that Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics would have been the best place for the conversation. However it started here so I've done what I can to notify the other articles' talk pages. TarnishedPath 22:51, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. YBSOne (talk) 20:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support: Clearly this is a single topic that is otherwise split between three articles. Very few people feel one way about Lin Yu-Ting and another way about Imane Khelif, it's the same controversy. --GRuban (talk) 20:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support: As others above have said, it has enough merit and stuff to write about it in a single article. Sria-72 (talk) 23:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose due to WP:RECENTISM: it depends how long the controversy will last or how soon people will realise that the International Boxing Association is now a distrusted sporting organisation (i.e. the first to be expelled from the Olympic movement). I think it would be better off for now as a section in Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics, bearing in mind that that the IBA was largely responsible for the controversy. --Minoa (talk) 00:20, 27 August 2024 (UTC)
• Support as 2024 Boxing gender controversy is independenty notable per WP:NOTABILITY. Also per WP:SIZESPLIT. RogerYg (talk) 05:00, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
• oppose. you and i will forget this happened ten years later. we should probably start trimming the content. ltbdl☃ (talk) 08:28, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose There is no need for an additional article that duplicates the content and separates context. Very simply, neither this page nor the section in the "Concerns" article is long enough to need a split. Reywas92 15:56, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
• comment Im about to do an article on the controversy with my own words, pending two things: a vote I am carrying on a boxing site I frequent, and this discussion. I appreciate any opinions on why I shoyld or should not fo the article. Jeanette La Controversial Martin (dile a la nena) 04:24, 4 September, 2024

@JeanetteMartin, once there hasn't been any !votes on this in a few days I'll request a close at WP:CR. TarnishedPath 04:49, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Neutral - this controversy was quite notable, so many readers would benefit from finding the information more easily rather than keeping it buried here. Having said that, I think it's clear that the "controversy" is not really controversial and will fade from memory very quickly, barring legal consequences from the ongoing lawsuit. I think there is a case to leave it here unless there are major updates from the lawsuit. 20WattSphere (talk) 00:45, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Having reviewed the several articles containing this information, changing my vote to Support. This page should focus on Khelif's life and career. The unfounded questioning of her gender should be relegated to a separate page. 20WattSphere (talk) 01:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I honestly didn't think about that before: I opted not to comment further for a short time in order to avoid being too involved in the split in boxing. --Minoa (talk) 20:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support - At the very least it shouldn't be split into two articles like it is. There is also little about the lawsuits here even though that is a topic that received quite a lot of coverage. Swordman97 05:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Support - recent gender-related controversies in boxing should have their own article. Ahri Boy (talk) 17:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment - I support creating a new article, but if we don't, then content should be mostly removed from this article and consolidated into Concerns and controversies at the 2024 Summer Olympics. There is no sense in duplicating such content, and it is largely not relevant to Imane Khelif since the controversy stems from the IBA rather than Imane's career as a boxer. 20WattSphere (talk) 05:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Support. The new article has a lot of potential to be expanded. Karol739 (talk) 15:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose No need to split the content on a ton of different repeating articles, while it can be contained on a single cohesive one.Μιχαήλ Δεληγιάννης (talk) 11:15, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

  The reasoning you give is an argument for splitting the content from three articles and consolidating it into one, not an argument to oppose. TarnishedPath 11:18, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose As per DanielRigal's reasoning, it is better to keep this subject away from being a battleground page with BLP risks. Also, let time tell if this was more than a storm in a tea cup (recentism). In general, it may be a good idea to let things cool off for a bit.OsFish (talk) 05:45, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

  This topic had cooled off compared to mid-August though 213.230.87.181 (talk) 08:17, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

New reports

Suggest Khelif has XY chromosomes... https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/huge-row-after-imane-khelif-paris-olympics-gold-medalist-confirmed-as-man-in-leaked-medical-report-101730741337891.html https://reduxx.info/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-has-xy-chromosomes-and-testicles-french-algerian-medical-report-admits/ https://weltwoche.de/daily/also-doch-laut-medizinischem-gutachten-handelt-es-sich-bei-imane-khelif-um-einen-mann/ https://www.freepressjournal.in/sports/olympic-gold-medalist-boxer-imane-khelif-has-xy-chromosomes-and-testicles-says-algerian-athletes-medical-report https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/massive-outrage-over-imane-khelifes-leaked-medical-report-democrats-hate-women/articleshow/114954830.cms https://tribune.com.pk/story/2507413/algerian-boxer-imane-khelifs-leaked-medical-report-reveals-xy-male-chromosomes

what to make of it? ---FMSky (talk) 21:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

These seem to be amplification of some report from

Much of the talk section seemed to be removed due to WP:BLPREMOVE, but all seem to be sourced to a weird french paper that has been posting about algerian drug dealers, morrocan prostitutes, and various other salacious stories. None of these seem actually well corroborated and mostly repeating the same info.

Honestly, need a much more reliable source for this. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 21:13, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Not certain about the rest but at the very least reduxx should not be considered rs LunaHasArrived (talk) 23:56, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The usual unsubstantiated crappy claims, by the usual crappy sources. There's nothing to see here. M.Bitton (talk) 00:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Generally agreed, the sources are not reliable so this information should not be included as per WP:BLPREMOVE. It's technically not "usual" as I believe this is the first claim of a leaked medical report, but unless we see strong coverage from reliable sources, it's not a claim that should be appearing on a person's biography. --Techn0logist (talk) 01:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

We should stick to facts.

1. The Olympics reacted to rumors saying that Khelif may have XY chromosome: They don't test anything of the sort for illegibility.
2. Some people disagree and think they should.

We do not have to justify if the rumors are true of false to cover the situation. Iluvalar (talk) 02:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:DUE and the stringent guidelines of WP:BLP disagree. and no RFC or discussion has ever gotten community consensus for putting any doubts on imane khelifs gender in the article. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 02:54, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It's fine because, personally, I'm not discussing Khelif's gender at all. We don't have sources for that. I mean, we know for sure that she identify as a woman. But it have nothing to do with whether or not should the Olympics have biological tests. Iluvalar (talk) 23:04, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. This is a leaked medical document. The names of the doctors and hospitals were included. This could be confirmed by asking the doctors. Likely, if it's real, they'll be required to say that they can't confirm nor deny its authenticity, while if it's fake, they'll say it's fake, because there's no confidentiality requirement when there's no patient. It seems perfectly credible and I haven't seen any evidence that contradicts it. At the very least the portion of the article which claims "there is no evidence" needs to be edited to say something along the lines of "there is no publicly available confirmed authentic evidence proving her sex either way", otherwise it's misleading and suggests a certainty we don't have. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 15:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

"leaked medical report" are not things that make up a reliable source. TarnishedPath 04:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

We have entire articles about the materials that were leaked by Julian Assange since they are verifiable. Reliable sources are putting their reputation on the line reporting on these documents and for those sources we consider reliable we are obliged to assume that they are doing so in good faith. Now, if we want to go revisit the reliability of said sources, that's fine, but this isn't the place to dispute it. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

You might want to refer to this RFC close where the closer determined that there was consensus that sources (not the publication/broadcaster themselves) which merely parroted unreliable sources were themselves unreliable. Given that this "leaked medical report" is at this stage not verified that makes it unreliable. TarnishedPath 00:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

"The report was drafted in June of 2023 via a collaboration between the Kremlin-Bicêtre hospital in Paris, France, and the Mohamed Lamine Debaghine hospital in Algiers, Algeria. Drafted by expert endocrinologists Soumaya Fedala and Jacques Young, the report reveals that Khelif is impacted by 5-alpha reductase deficiency, a disorder of sexual development that is only found in biological males."

https://reduxx.info/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-has-xy-chromosomes-and-testicles-french-algerian-medical-report-admits/ Christo1234 (talk) 07:34, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

As it is reported as a "leaked medical report" its authenticity is not confirmed. Any story parroting the claims is unreliable. TarnishedPath 07:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

My best attempt to be unbiased here. I don't follow the logic that a "leaked medical report" cannot have confirmed authenticity, but I agree that it does not have confirmed authenticity. I would also be against including this information if reliable sources merely discuss the unconfirmed report -- as although WP:BLP is not specific on this, it indicates we should still avoid contentious claims without authoritative evidence. However, I would still reserve the possibility that reliable sources may further investigate the alleged report and end up with authoritative evidence of its authenticity. If that becomes the case, I would argue for its inclusion, but until then I see it as a violation of WP:BLP to include it. --Techn0logist (talk) 12:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Let's wait for Imane's side to verify the authenticity of the leaks. WP:INDYUK report on the leaks doesn't mean that the leaks are reliable. Ahri Boy (talk) 13:01, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Was that the correct WP? I can't see the independent being used here as a source. LunaHasArrived (talk) 13:12, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Imane's side doesn't need to verify anything or comment on every unsubstantiated claim, least of all, one that looks like it's been made from someone's bedroom: look at the about us section of the one man show that is pretending to be to be some important "newspaper" and enter their address into Google maps. M.Bitton (talk) 13:43, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I did not write "authenticity cannot be confirmed". I wrote "authenticity is not confirmed". It will stay that way until the supposed authors of the report put their hands up and confirm that they wrote said report and that is covered in reliable sources. TarnishedPath 00:26, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

reduxx is an anti-trans hate site. It is not a reliable source. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:36, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

reduxx isn't the original source. The original source seems to be Djaffer Ait Aoudia, founder of the French digital news journal Le Correspondant. While many sources disagreeing with Aoudia have been published, there doesn't seem to be any evidence proving the medical report false. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 16:09, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

That's right, the original source is less reliable than than the unreliable Reduxx, whose contributors don't pretend to be what they're not (see my comment about the self-described "grand reporter"). M.Bitton (talk) 16:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

We seem to be more or less in agreement on that point. I don't claim they are a reliable source, merely that we can't definitively refute the evidence presented by the source. It's perfectly simple to mention the claim of the report without presenting it as fact.

BlackEyedGhost (talk) 16:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

No, we don't spread unsubtantiated claims about living people. I suggest you read WP:BLP. M.Bitton (talk) 16:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

In which case, rather than mentioning the evidence, the article ought to be changed so that it doesn't claim no evidence exists, when it clearly does, even if it can't be fully substantiated.

BlackEyedGhost (talk) BlackEyedGhost (talk) 17:03, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

While it's a bit dodgy, and the sources are not fully reliable, I do think it's enough to remove the claim that there have been no reports, given that it is a report. Jerdle (talk) 16:48, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Quick correction, the claim is that there is no evidence, and that is some evidence, even if it's too weak to report in wikivoice. Jerdle (talk) 16:49, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

There is no evidence and therefore, no reason to remove what has been discussed and agreed upon. M.Bitton (talk) 16:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

A leaked medical report is a form of evidence. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 17:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

We have very strict guidelines on WP:BLP, specifically on this is the contentious and poorly sourced part - any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source. Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Raladic (talk) 17:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

And currently the thing under contention is the claim that no evidence exists. This isn't about adding a reference to the evidence to the article, it's about removing the contentious claim that no evidence exists. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 17:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The evidence is weak, so we shouldn't state that Khelif is XY, but we also shouldn't state that there is no evidence. Jerdle (talk) 17:16, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

There is no evidence, and therefore, no reason to remove what has been discussed and agreed upon by the community. M.Bitton (talk) 17:28, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

So you know for a fact that the medical report is a fake? How? BlackEyedGhost (talk) 17:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

All I need to know is that it's unsubstantiated and made by a unreliable source to boot. M.Bitton (talk) 17:42, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

No, but it includes the names of two real, credentialed endocrinologists, and two real hospitals, any of whom could decry it as a false report. Until they do, on its face it appears real. Furthermore, 5-alpha reductase deficiency is consistent with public statements by those who would know, such as officials in the Olympics and supporters, as well as with other facts such as her IBA disqualification for "characteristics that mean I can't box with women". If it's a lie, it's a well crafted one involving several people. That's why I consider it plausible. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 17:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Until such time that those "two real, credentialed endocrinologists" make public statements stating that it is a report that they made and those public statements are covered by reliable sources this can only be viewed with the utmost of sceptism. TarnishedPath 22:23, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

The report very much exists, and is evidence.

It might turn out to be fabricated, and we need to exercise unusual caution in BLP pages like this one, but that does not mean maintaining a false claim that there is no evidence, especially not in such a prominent position.

It is entirely possible that the report is real, and Khelif is in fact XY with 5-ARD, much like Semenya.

It is also entirely possible that the report is fake, and she is an XX boxer who has been unfairly attacked and falsely claimed to be XY.

But both of these possibilities exist. There have been multiple claims that she is XY, but those have generally been somewhat, but not entirely, unreliable (the IBA is corrupt and the leaked report could be fake).

Because of this, we should not claim that there is no evidence, but also not claim that the report is correct. If we must say anything, we should just say that the document exists, is allegedly a leaked medical report and has her as XY, in order to remain factual and neutral.

WP:BLP would only apply here if we were considering stating that she is XY, which nobody in this discussion is. The contentious claim that she is XY is not being added. Jerdle (talk) 19:00, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

As it's difficult to edit a message on a talk page, I'll clarify some awkward wording:

The sentence "It is also entirely possible that the report is fake, and she is an XX boxer who has been unfairly attacked and falsely claimed to be XY." could imply that she has claimed to be XY.

She has not.

People have claimed her to be XY, and in this possible world, that claim was false. Jerdle (talk) 19:02, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

again, this all has been argued in RFCs and discussions with no real change.

WP:FALSEBALANCE and Burden of proof apply, an accusation of a rare chromosomes or hormonal difference requires high proof on the part of the accuser.

I can argue that there is no proof that the earth is flat, and you can argue that some report provides disputed evidence the earth is flat, but that changes nothing. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:18, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, that's not the claim which is currently under discussion. The claim is whether or not there's any evidence. In your analogy, it would be akin to saying "nobody thinks the earth is flat", which is a statement proven false by the existence of flat earthers. The existence of this published medical evidence proves the statement "no medical evidence ..bhas een published" false. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 20:32, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Do WP:RS say there is evidence? EvergreenFir (talk) 20:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

"all majority and significant minority views"

This is a minority view, and it's not being accounted for. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 20:37, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It must be published in RS. We, as editors, cannot gather fringe or minority viewpoints on our own and present them here and say they must be included (cf WP:NOR). The RS must tell us they are minority viewpoints or the viewpoints themselves need to be published in RS. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I've made the case above for why this source is both possible to verify and tentatively credible. That said, I'm also not saying we should present the source on the page, merely that we shouldn't present information which has been shown to be dubious by the existence of this new information. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 20:49, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

From our standpoint as editors, the report doesn't "exist" (or matter) unless RS say it does. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:08, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I note that you quoted "significant minority views" but then defended it with "this is a minority view" omitting "significant". And the obvious reason is that this is clearly not a significant minority view. Loki (talk) 20:39, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It is significant. I just cut out words for brevity. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 20:50, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not even reliable for it to quality as a single irrelevant view. M.Bitton (talk) 20:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Insulting a different perspective doesn't make it wrong. This is being widely reported as we speak. It's pretty relevant. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 21:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper, let alone some crappy tabloid. M.Bitton (talk) 21:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

But it is currently parroting the claim that no evidence exists, from three newspaper articles which were written before this new evidence surfaced. BlackEyedGhost (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

No reporting from unreliable sources about "leaked medical report"s is not significant. Particularly not when they don't even name who leaked it and the purported authors of the supposed report haven't even made statements confirming it as covered by reliable sources. TarnishedPath 00:07, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

In an RFC we had on teh wording in the lead, there was no concensus to remove wording that there was no evidence. If you want to revisit that you'll need to start an RFC. I'd suggest engaging in dicussion at WP:BLP/N first though. TarnishedPath 22:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

We shouldn't do anything until it's reported by a better source than those. This is a BLP, we can't be going off sources that are the least bit shoddy. Loki (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

German mainstream media has picked up the news, from yellow press to usually reliable high quality news outlets: https://www.fr.de/sport/sport-mix/mann-oder-frau-brisantes-gutachten-zu-olympia-boxerin-khelif-aufgetaucht-zr-93394785.html https://www.bild.de/sport/olympia/imane-khelif-jetzt-reagiert-das-ioc-auf-brisantes-gutachten-672a5c8febdb8724738e98b4 https://www.mopo.de/sport/sportmix/innenliegender-hoden-brisantes-gutachten-belastet-box-olympiasiegerin/ https://www.welt.de/sport/olympia/article254357674/Olympiasiegerin-Imane-Khelif-Zwei-Gutachten-im-Fall-der-umstrittenen-Boxerin-aufgetaucht.html https://www.focus.de/sport/boxen/penisaehnliche-klitoris-akte-soll-zeigen-wie-maennlich-boxerin-imane-khelif-wirklich-ist_id_260453178.html Just FYI. Rka001 (talk) 21:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

They are parroting what the unreliable source said. That's what newspapers do. Obviously, this doesn't change a thing (the source is unreliable and the claim is unsubstantiated). M.Bitton (talk) 21:55, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree, 100%. For a particular story (not talking about the publisher/broadcaster) to be reliable, they would need to do more than parrot the reporting of unreliable sources. This was covered in a recent RFC on this article where the closer found that consensus was that any sourcing which merely parrotting unreliable sourcing was itself unreliable, i.e. fruit of the poison tree. TarnishedPath 00:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Should point that the source for the "leaked medical report" was a respected French-Algerian journalist called Djaffar Ait Aoudia and published at the investigative website lecorrespondant.net not reduxx which is pushing its own POV heavily. Topcardi (talk) 09:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

When I right "they would need to do more than parrot the reporting of unreliable sources" that includes the primary document itself which at this point in time is not verified as being legitimate. TarnishedPath 09:58, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

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