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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Doc James (talk | contribs) at 16:53, 6 December 2024 (→You may be interested in this medical article). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Note: Mostly over at MDWiki.org

Norovirus#Vaccine_trials

This needs updating. Do you have journal access in order to back up claimes being made in the UK media?

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/worlds-first-norovirus-vaccine-set-to-be-trialled-by-nhs-to-combat-winter-vomiti/
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/world-first-vaccine-for-vomiting-bug-norovirus-trialled-in-the-uk/ar-AA1sJTQ2

The claims seem to relate to Phase 3 trials in the United Kingdom. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 17:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I personally do not see the need for review articles to discuss this. The popular press IMO is just fine as one is just stating that a trial is about to begin, not making any medical claims mdwiki:Norovirus#Vaccines Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Found one review and it is under an open license. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Uploading images to Wikimedia from open source journal articles

Quick question about protocol for medical images -- are we allowed to upload images from open source scientific journals to Wikimedia? If so, is there anything we need to do beyond giving the article's reference in the description? I enjoy sandwiches (talk) 19:46, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes we can as long as they are CC BY or CC BY SA. For NC and ND licensed images you can upload them here to NC Commons. Nothing special from a pt consent POV as it is assumed that the journal itself takes care of that. Have been thinking of doing a mass upload at some point. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:06, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Very helpful, thank you. I enjoy sandwiches (talk) 02:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Top 100 medical calculators

Copied from Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#waist_diameter:

Plan to do the top 100 medical calculators in December. Would love to have your help. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Ha ha ha, that would be a great honour! Happy to see you appreciate my design.

Without any false modesty: I think the calculator design already outclasses the commercial version. The user interface looks so simple, but there is quite a bit of processing going on under the hood to get to the right silhouette and NICE health risk level which adds meaning to data, numbers.

And... it will get even better as it does not deal yet with fine-tuning for male-female, age, ... differences.

user:Cmglee is already working on a female silhouette to explain the BRI formula. Work in progress:

Gender, age won't impact the WHtR and BRI computations but

• will impact the user interface for gender
• will impact the health level text
• it will also impact the background color.

What would you like me to do? What can I do to help you? Uwappa (talk) 08:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Will let you know when I am back and working on it. We need a eGFR calculator, we need one to switch between America and IU for blood sugar, etc, etc. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:27, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Good. Be warned: my medical knowledge is limited, almost non existent. I have very limited experience in working with medics.

You already lost me with terms as eGFR, IU. I've heard about blood sugar, but don't know much about it. So I will need a lot of input for medical terms, formulas, translations from jargon to plain language, etc, etc.

Be aware that design takes time, sweet time. It is hard to design simple things. Something easy like a body roundness calculator can take weeks, for just two input variables. And that is when I have time to spare.

What can be done quite fast: evaluate a current design.

• What is good about it?
• How can it be improved?

Warning: I apply function psychology in my designs,

• the way humans process information dictates the design. No room to discuss the information processing cycle: observe, interpret, learn, think, act and back to observe, interpret, ...
• Science is leading, well defined qualities and limitations of the human eye, brain, hands dictate the design. A design should be tailored to humans, not vice versa.
• I will ignore the usual personal preferences, opinions, etc with remarks like: Mate how interesting, I think you should go and tell someone who cares!

The term function psychology seems unknown in the English Misplaced Pages, well the whole English speaking world. There are bits and pieces of design theory coming from people like Jakob Nielsen (usability consultant), Bruce Tognazzini, Don_Norman, the late Jef Raskin and his son Aza, Edward Tufte, Alan Cooper. But names like Лев Выготский and Leonard Verhoef are almost unknown.

So well... you may be in for a few surprises. Working with me may be tough, no guarantees, but happy to give it a go. Uwappa (talk) 09:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

IU is international units… GFR is glomerular filtration rate. We can see how it goes. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 09:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Ha ha ha, asif 'glomerular filtration rate' is plain English, not incomprehensible medical jargon to me. Sorry, but my medical knowledge is very limited indeed. Uwappa (talk) 21:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Smile, I looked up Glomerular_filtration_rate in Misplaced Pages.

The first sentence is reads for me as:

"*** functions include maintaining an ***; regulating fluid balance; regulating ***, ***, and other ***;"

I am already lost at the very first word and it does not have a hyperlink to another page.

It has something to do with regulating fluid levels, but I am completely clueless what kind of fluids that would be. Uwappa (talk) 21:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

out of the woods?

When you are out of the woods, please have a look at:

1. Some documentation for the calculator at: Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Information_hierarchy I expect the design approach for other medical applications to be similar:

• Let the computer do all the number crunching, focus on human efficiency, not computer efficiency.
• show categories based on patient values, generally speaking ranging from deadly to healthy.
• in an environment outside wikipedia patient values are probably digitally available. Maybe even with a history. Mrs. Jones, things look a lot better for you than last month!

Related Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Should_this_calculator_be_part_of_WikiProject_Medicine?

2. A design for a Body Roundness calculator, no input required, zero, just look at the chart, use height for Y axes, waist for X: And yes, it does support both metric and imperial, without any input. Look mum, no hands!

3. An idea for something similar, with 2 input variables, unit indepenent: Template_talk:Calculator#Dynamically_change_numeric_template_parameter? That design is beyond calculator possibilities at the moment.

4. A nasty bug in calculator 4.0. I can't find anything wrong in my own code, suspect that the calculator already hits a limit of formula propagation Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Bug:_risk_text_does_not_show_for_88 test it out yourself at Template:Body_roundness_index/sandbox The calculator has a lot of hidden fields. A developer may want to see them all for debuging, change CSS class 'obscured' from display: none to display: inline to see all of the calculator fields. Be warned: there are a lot of formulas here at work, which eh... well cause the bug. Change 'class=obscured' for a row in the wikicode to see just some intermediate values. Uwappa (talk) 23:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Away for a few weeks. Have asked Brian to look at that bug. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:19, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

G'd on ya, thanks! That bug is kind of a worry at the moment. That limit could really f*** things up when calculators get complex using more than 2 input fields.

As a reward, here is an idea for a brandnew state of the art medical tool for a check on central adiposity against WHtR no-health-worries upper limit of 0.5. (ha ha ha, that is about the max medical jargon I know)

Here we go:

1. take a piece of string equal to your height. If no string available, an old cloth will do fine too.
2. try to wrap it around your waist twice
3. too short? Bad news mate, you have health risks because of increased central adiposity, as defined at Waist-to-height_ratio#Suggested_boundary_values

Smile... this method was reverted from the WHtR page, because of some Misplaced Pages policy.

Do you know anybody in the medical world that could publish this method in a reliable source after an official peer review? That would be just too deadly!

And it is just too easy. A 3 year old in outback Australia would have checked the adiposity of the whole community against the NICE 0.5 WHtR limit while the western doctors are still struggling with the BRI formulas because their smartphone battery is dead, with no electricity in sight for a recharge. And I have yet to see classifications for BRI values. To me this is silly. How can you use meaningless numbers? The 3 year old will have 2 simple classifications:

• good
• too fat

A kind that is a few years older may invent a method of checking the lower WHtR limit of 0.4 by some fancy folding of the excess bit of string against the rest of it. Look mum, no batteries and uncle XYZ is too lean!

I really wonder. Why would anybody use BRI over WHtR?

Can't they see they are related and WHtR is just to easy.

A tool used during debugging that caused a bit of turmoil, the WHtR to BRI converter here on the right.

Template:WaistHeightRatio_to_BodyRoundnessIndex_converter

While you are at it, how about a peer review for that converter? ha ha ha.

Some other issues where a medic can help:

1. Any reliable source for a classification of a WHtR value below 0.4? Currently the Calculator 4.0 displays an error message, because it lacks a NICE classification.
2. How about using Zang's mortality graph for colour gradients behind silhouettes. See 2nd level of pyramid, right hand block of Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Information_hierarchy

I've used Zang's graph for previous set of colours too, which were BRI based, with a terrible overlap against BMI classes.

Talk:Body_roundness_index#c-Uwappa-20241009125000-BRI_categories

And yes the calculator has a risk level, based on NICE classes at Waist-to-height_ratio#Suggested_boundary_values

Now health risk and chance of dying might be very correlated, but health risk and dying are two different concepts.

The line mortality graph would be perfect for a mapping to colour gradients.

See colour work in progress at Template_talk:Body_roundness_index#Colours_for_Body_Roundness_4.0

I think a green to dark red gradient would work great for the lower end of the scale. Please feel welcome to join in and get the discussion on colours going again, as it has been stuck in the mud for quite some time now.

Uwappa (talk) 01:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That’s 2 small steps in a sandbox, 1 giant leap for mankind.

1805118131.890
Body Roundness Calculator 100Body roundness Calculator 5.0Body roundness Calculator 5.0AI?AI?StructureStructure
Dimensions	Height	Waist
	180 +10 190cm≈6′3″ +3  183cm≈6′0″ +2  182cm≈5′12″ +1  181cm≈5′11″ 180cm≈5′11″ -1  179cm≈5′10″ -2  178cm≈5′10″ -3  177cm≈5′10″ -10 170cm≈5′7″	81 +50 131cm≈51.575″ +40 121cm≈47.638″ +30 111cm≈43.701″ +20 101cm≈39.764″ +10 91cm≈35.827″ +5 86cm≈33.858″ +4 85cm≈33.465″ +3 84cm≈33.071″ +2 83cm≈32.677″ +1 82cm≈32.283″ 81cm≈31.890″ -1  80cm≈31.496″ -2  79cm≈31.102″ -3  78cm≈30.709″ -4  77cm≈30.315″ -5  76cm≈29.921″ -10 71cm≈27.953″
Roundness	0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Waist-to-height ratio (WHtR)	81/180 ≈= 0.450.45 ≈ 0.45 WHtR Waist for height 180cm, 5′11″ 1.00 1.00 180cm≈70.866″ 0.900.90 162cm≈63.780″ 0.800.80 144cm≈56.693″ 0.700.70 126cm≈49.606″ 0.600.60 108cm≈42.520″ 0.500.50 90cm≈35.433″ 0.450.45 81cm≈31.890″ 0.400.40 72cm≈28.346″ 0.300.30 54cm≈21.260″
rounded bounded silhouette index, hidden	5
silhouette index, hidden	5.876404494382022
hidden	<0.4 >=0.4	>=0.5	>=0.6
hidden	0.4 01	0.4494 0| 0.4494 0 7290108
Health risks	00.6 ≤ WHtR0.6 ≤ 99: further increased health risks0 0.5 ≤ 99 < 0.60.5 ≤ WHtR < 0.6: increased health risks 10.4 ≤ WHtR < 0.50.4 ≤ 0.45 < 0.5: no increased health risks 0 WHTR < 0.499 < 0.4: Unspecified

1. unit-less input for height and weight. Any unit, a piece of string will do.
2. play with WHtR to find healthy waist size.

Please:

1. Record the start time with accuracy in seconds
2. Enter your own height
3. Find a healthy waist size
4. Record the end time
5. How long did it take you, including the learning curve?

Next:

1. Record time again and try to find a healthy waist size for some friend or family.
2. How long did it take you, without the learning curve?

Final:

1. How long does it take you to do this with the commercial tool?

I think the calculator just overtook the commercial calculator by a miles length, 1.60934 km for people using metric system. But who gives a s*** about units :D

Are there any serious competitors for the top 100? Uwappa (talk) 12:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC) Kudos to: user:Cmglee and user:JMF for sharing 'impossible' ideas.

One chart, many calculations for 1 patient?

A paramedic assisted in a usability test today for the Body Roundness Calculator 4.1.

Have video of the whole test. That video won't make it online. Test subject prefers to stay anonymous and spoke local language, not English. Interesting results, back to drawing board again. Discussed zero input chart options. Got feedback: yeah, but you'll need many charts to cover all aspects of one patient. True...

Will be back with just one chart per patient, showing many calculator results in time.

Uwappa (talk) 19:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The Signpost: 18 November 2024

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• In the media: Summons issued for Misplaced Pages editors by Indian court, "Gaza genocide" RfC close in news, old admin Gwern now big AI guy, and a "spectrum of reluctance" over Australian place names

• Recent research: SPINACH: AI help for asking Wikidata "challenging real-world questions"

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You may be interested in this medical article

I just started this: NH Predict (A.I.). I hope you’re well. Victor Grigas (talk) 04:10, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Not surprised. Glad we do not have those up here in Canada. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC)