Misplaced Pages

Talk:2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2.55.163.47 (talk) at 06:10, 23 December 2024 (→Death damage to the milita/terror org: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 06:10, 23 December 2024 by 2.55.163.47 (talk) (→Death damage to the milita/terror org: new section)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
Gold Apollo AR924 was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 3 October 2024 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
Article policies
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL
Archives: 1, 2, 3Auto-archiving period: 30 days 
Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. Parts of this article relate to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing the parts of the page related to the contentious topic:

  • You must be logged-in to an extended confirmed account (granted automatically to accounts with 500 edits and an age of 30 days)
  • You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on this article (except in limited circumstances)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

If it is unclear which parts of the page are related to this contentious topic, the content in question should be marked within the wiki text by an invisible comment. If no comment is present, please ask an administrator for assistance. If in doubt it is better to assume that the content is covered.

In the newsA news item involving 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the In the news section on 18 September 2024.
Misplaced Pages
Misplaced Pages
This article is rated B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.
WikiProject iconDisaster management Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconExplosives Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Explosives, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Explosives on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ExplosivesWikipedia:WikiProject ExplosivesTemplate:WikiProject ExplosivesExplosives
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
WikiProject iconIsrael Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Israel, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Israel on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IsraelWikipedia:WikiProject IsraelTemplate:WikiProject IsraelIsrael-related
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Project Israel To Do:

 Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
WikiProject iconLebanon Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Lebanon, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lebanon-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LebanonWikipedia:WikiProject LebanonTemplate:WikiProject LebanonLebanon
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconMilitary history: Aviation / Middle East / Post-Cold War
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history
B checklist
This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
  1. Referencing and citation: criterion met
  2. Coverage and accuracy: criterion met
  3. Structure: criterion met
  4. Grammar and style: criterion met
  5. Supporting materials: criterion met
Associated task forces:
/ 
Taskforce icon
Military aviation task force
Taskforce icon
Middle Eastern military history task force
Taskforce icon
Post-Cold War task force
WikiProject iconSyria Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Syria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Syria on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SyriaWikipedia:WikiProject SyriaTemplate:WikiProject SyriaSyria
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
WikiProject iconTelecommunications Low‑importance
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Telecommunications, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Telecommunications on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.TelecommunicationsWikipedia:WikiProject TelecommunicationsTemplate:WikiProject TelecommunicationsTelecommunications
LowThis article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:

This article has previously been nominated to be moved. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination.

Discussions:

Requested move 21 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Thanks, everyone. I take this as "consensus that the solved-in-individual-pieces title was not so objectionable everyone immediately moved to oppose it". asilvering (talk) 15:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

2024 Lebanon pager explosions → 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks – Please pick EITHER 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks OR 2024 Hezbollah device explosions, and state it clearly in your response. Per last RM close, I am setting up the "simple run-off between 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks and 2024 Hezbollah device explosions". I'll also explain where I think we're at: The former is more recent, fits WP:NCWWW better and maintains WP:NPOV. The latter is based on words which had some support ("Hezbollah" and "explosions") and technically also covers attacks in Syria, but possibly ignores civilian casualties and leaves out that these were orchestrated attacks. A prior RM also found consensus not to include Syria. I'm hoping we can get a quick WP:SNOW close on this, especially as the first option is so recent and this is the third RM in so many weeks. I'd also like to avoid it becoming a Franken-monster like the last one. We're so close I can feel it. Lewisguile (talk) 07:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

  • Too soon. Give time for the dust from the last RM to settle before proceeding with a new one. BilledMammal (talk) 08:37, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
    Are you sure? The last one had tapered off over the last couple of weeks anyway, so the responses were only coming in in drips and drabs. Most of us probably want to see this resolved (personally, I think the last closer should've just gone with the option they suggested anyway). But I'm happy to park this if you/others feel strongly that we need a break. Let's see if anyone else chimes in. Lewisguile (talk) 08:46, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
    I'm happy to reclose it as the Frankenclose if that's what people would prefer - I was uneasy about doing that, as I said, because no one ever got the chance to actually agree that they liked that one as a unit. -- asilvering (talk) 17:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
    That may be the way to go. I would be fine with that title. Shall we see if anyone else responds to my RM? If there's crickets all around, it might mean there's no real passion to oppose the Frankenclose, and we can go with that. The last RM had people responding in their droves (at least initially), so I would expect people to do the same if they disagreed with it, at least. Lewisguile (talk) 17:54, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
    Happy with reclosing per the frankenclose. Or happy to proceed on this one. Don't see the point in waiting when the previous discussion did not fail, it was just to complex to complete. In which case this is all part of the same process. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 18:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
    That was my thinking, too. Lewisguile (talk) 06:07, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Supporting a move to 2024 Israel's pagers attack in Lebanon as there is no reason why we should avoid mentioning Israel. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:18, 21 October 2024 (UTC)
    After reconsideration, 2024 Israel's electronic devices attack in Lebanon is better as not only pagers were targeted. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:46, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    Your revised suggestion is better, but I oppose multiplying the options. Let's choose between 1 and 2. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. It need not be the end state but 1 or 2 will be an improvement for the very reason you mention here. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
    Exactly. We can always do an RM to add Israel's or Israeli later, but multiplying the options increases the likelihood we'll get no consensus again. I'd rather we get to a good title now than keep it where it is. Lewisguile (talk) 08:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support moving to 2024 Israeli electronic devices attack in Lebanon, as I agree with @Makeandtoss that attribution of the perpetrator should be included in the title. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 06:40, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    Let's not split the vote. Any RM now won't prejudice and RM later. We can run an RM for Israeli later. Lewisguile (talk) 08:56, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
    Alright, for the options you presented:
    Support Option 1 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks. The phrase captures the scope and content of the page, and the addition of explosions isn't necessary. The inclusion of Hezbollah is problematic as it implies a targeted, discriminate attack, when the page cites high quality RS including the UN and Amnesty International saying it was indiscriminate. I also agree with your point that "Hezbollah attacks" is very clunky, not policy-based, and creates more problems that it solves.
However, the perpetrator is not in question in RS and presents no issues with the phrasing, so it should be included, but that's for a future discussion. Raskolnikov.Rev (talk) 09:17, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
  • 2024 Hezbollah pager and walkie talkie attacks. I prefer that to electronic device. If I have to choose a combination of the phrases given though, I think it should have "Hezbollah" and "attack." Andre🚐 06:43, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    @Andrevan: And why do you think it should not have the perpetrator in the title? Makeandtoss (talk) 08:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    As raised in the prior RM, the major problem with this is that it could be read as an attack made by Hezbollah, not on Hezbollah. Lebanon was chosen per WP:NCWWW which suggests we should default to what, where and when, not who or why. Hence, 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks. Electronic device was deemed preferable to pager and walkie talkie because it was more concise. Hezbollah was primarily suggested as an alternative since some devices exploded in Syria. Personally, though, I don't think Hezbollah attacks is policy-based, and creates more problems than it solves. Lewisguile (talk) 09:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    Oppose this suggestion. No point relitigating the previous discussion and multiplying the options. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support option 1, neutral option 2, oppose no action. WP:RS describe this as an "attack" as shown in the previous RM. The current title is horrendous as it is, so it should be removed and replaced with something more accurately reflected in sources. We finally converged on a couple titles that work. Awesome Aasim 18:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks in this run-off between only the two proposed titles for the reason of using active voice "attacks" rather than passive voice "explosions". Other titles may be better and should be brought up in future requested moves. Support doing this speedily per the outcome of the previous requested move. PK-WIKI (talk) 21:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)
    Yeah, it would be good to keep this on topic so we can resolve it quickly. Lewisguile (talk) 08:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support both options. Prefer 2. Reasoning in th eprevious discussion. Time to get this done. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There's a typo I'd like to fix but I'm a humble IP editor and thus can't edit this extended-protected article

In the final paragraph under International law § Civilian status of Hezbollah members:

Marko Milanovic writes it is almost impossible for Israel to have known whether Hezbollah issued the pagers to military members or civilian ones, given than some pagers had been issued mere hours before the explosions. He concludes the attacks were most likely indiscriminate.

Italics added to the word in question; it should be that rather than than. 71.186.128.163 (talk) 06:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Done, because humbleness in this topic area should be encouraged. Thanks Sean.hoyland (talk) 08:18, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2024

It is requested that an edit be made to the extended-confirmed-protected article at 2024 Lebanon electronic device attacks. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{EEp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

Under the Heading "Casualties" the article states that Al Jazeera, a pro Muslim and historically anti-Jewish, Anti-Israel newspaper states that "the Lebanese Labour Minister from Hezbollah, said that over 4,000 civilians were injured from the attacks." and does not follow up to state the fact that the Labor Minister, Al Jazeera and Hezbollah all consider Jews and Israel their arch nemesis. There are many articles from sources like the Lieber Report, the West Point military strategy magazine Lieber or The Center for Strategic Studies who speak about in their article that Hezbollah's command and control were disrupted by the pager attack, thus verifying that if you were carrying a Hezbollah pager, you were likely Hezbollah operative. Many other articles if you peel away from the lock step media (CNN, MSNBC, Washington Post, New York Times, Al Jazeera, AP, Reuters and PBS.) find the attack to be the most precision attack cause mass casualties to a military opponent in History, with minimal civilian collateral damage. LionofYehuda (talk) 07:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

CBS journalism deep dive 3 months on

Looks like there is a 15-minute deep journalism TV segment being aired later today by the CBS News journalists at 60 minutes. Appears it will include interview with a pseudonymous Israel Mossad agent. Here's the source for the upcoming segment, but not the segment itself: Israel’s Mossad learned Hezbollah was buying pagers from a company in Taiwan, and in 2022 started its pager plot. Sunday, a retired Mossad agent, key to the operation, explains how they made pagers explode., CBS News, 20 December 2024. Could potentially have some newly uncovered information in secondary source media that could improve the article. N2e (talk) 14:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Link to the full 14 minute interview segment: The Pager Plot, CBS News, 22 December 2023, retrieved 23 December 2023. It was actually with two retired Mossad agents, including the commander of the project at Mossad.

Death damage to the milita/terror org

At this two days: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/bj7izdk6r 2.55.163.47 (talk) 06:10, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Categories: