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Talk:South America

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A Caribbean Table

I think we should add a Caribbean Table that lists Trinidad and Tobago, Aruba, and the Netherlands Antilles, just like there's a Central America Table for Panama. That table would be there to acknowledge the controversy over which continents those islands correspond to. Inkan1969 23:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Continent

North and South America are viewed differently across the globe, not the terms North America and South America, but the concepts. This should be noted in the article. There is no such thing as a relatively uncommon viewpoint, if we have a reliable source that North and South America are considered in a large part of the globe as a single continent, it should be noted. Furthermore, on the same principle that British english should be used on an article about Britain, the idea that America is a big continent encompassing both North and South America should be noted on a region that considers it as such.Chico 20:38, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

South America, both a continent and a subcontinent

As all of you know, South America is both defined as a continent of the Americas, or as a subcontinent/region of America (single continent).

These are the two major descriptions of South America and both should be equally represented in the main paragraph. Saying SA is only a continent is partial (representing a POV) and it is giving one model more importance. Also South America is defined as a subcontinent in all the South American nations.

So, the introductory paragraph must say SA is both a continent and a subcontinent. Both model are equally valid. AlexCovarrubias 19:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Mind you: I don't necessarily disagree with this, but information must be dealt with equitably, which doesn't mean equally. Per continent, a wealth of English sources define SA as a continent, relatively few have been provided that corroborate other points of view -- e.g., subcontinente in Spanish, none regarding it as a 'region' (though I may be missing this). Take a glance at the wording in the 'Usage' section of North America for a possible alternate. Corticopia 19:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
First of all, mind your own words, since you know for a fact, that South America is considered a subcontinent of the Americas, so it is not a "POV". The difference between the article North America and South America is that, in the first, the subcontinent NA doesn't comprise the same territory, so it would be hard to introduce such a introductory paragraph there.
SA as a continent or as a subcontinent, comprises the same territory/land. AlexCovarrubias 19:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I always mind my words: everything is a POV. Actually, I don't know it is a subcontinent for a fact: it may be considered a subcontinent in English and I've seen a number of sources indicating it is a subcontinente in Spanish, but I've seen many more (in English) that indicate it is a continent and a few others still that America is a continent (e.g. Olympics). In my opinion, it's your opinion solely that the North American continent and subcontinente are different (e.g., Central America a region of NA in both languages, at least according to Encarta). The scope of the definition can be narrow (Can, US, MX) or broad (Can, US, Mex, CA, WI). Just source your contributions and deal with content equitably and we shouldn't have any problems. :) Corticopia 19:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Alex, can I assume that you will be applying the same reasoning when you edit es:América del Sur to note that South America is considered to be a continent in English? -- Jim Douglas (contribs) 02:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry if I didn't see your comment/suggestion earlier. However, I have already added the notion that South America is also considered a continent, in the Spanish article. Go and check the article history. Oh and by the way, it is in the first paragraph.
  • 08:28 1 abr 2007 AlexCovarrubias (Discusión | contribuciones) m (Méx (Noreamérica), Antillas (Centroamérica). Sudamérica, alt también un continente.)

AlexCov 23:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a start, but this changes nothing for this article: even the editor whom you solicited feedback from has indicated that a Spanish reference is "not acceptable" in this context. Every major reliable English publication harks of the current lead; can you provide any that differ? Demonstrate why this/your perspective deserves undue mention upfront -- as opposed to the equitable presentation of this notion in the article already (e.g., in the Geography section) -- you haven't yet. Corticopia 23:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
As of this date -- since this discussion became moribund -- and after I requested the article be unprotected, the above concerns remain unaddressed. Therefore, a prior, equitable version will be restored until requests are fulfilled that satisfy those concerns or a consensus asserts otherwise. Corticopia 23:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

There's no need for souces in English, since the intro was corrected, because it wrongly implied that South America is also considered a sub-continent in English. In that case, sources in English would have been needed. That error was corrected to indicate that "SA is also considered a sub-continent in several non-English speaking countries, where the single American continent is taught". Both POV (America or Americas continents) are almost equally extended, and there's no reason why the intro should not say it is also considered a subcontinent. For example, in the article Oceania, the intro briefly elaborates about it being a continent. Moving the notion of SA being a subcontinent to somewhere else, is also giving undue weight to a very extended version. Since the intro was corrected, and the "concerns" of the only user opposing this are covered, I proceed to revert to the corrected version. Since this notion was introduced in the intro paragraph, nobody opposed. After several weeks, Corticopia decided to revert it. So one must assume, everybody else was OK with it, otherway they would have reverted it. AlexCovarrubias 01:29, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

An English source is needed. This is the English Misplaced Pages. Also, since it is the English Misplaced Pages, it doesn't matter so much what other languages consider South America. They have their own Wikipedias. I'm not saying it doesn't matter at all, just maybe not enough to be in the introduction. But the important point here is that yes, you do need an English source. Kafziel 01:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes ... and the retort above is replete with logical fallacies. Take Oceania, for example: its introduction notes that it as a region and (sometimes) reckoned as a continent because a number of reliable English sources indicate this (e.g., Atlas of Canada, Collins Atlas). (Take a glance at that article's history, and you'll note that I made precisely this argument there and was instrumental in retaining this tidbit ... and not painlessly.) None have been presented here. And a prior equitable, conciliatory version of this article by my hand -- where this viewpoint is given due weight -- existed for weeks beforehand (and whereby 'everybody was OK with it' too) before this editor decided to imbalance the intro more recently. Concerns remain unaddressed: please provide reputable English sources that indicate (1) SA is sometimes considered a subcontinent, and (2) when and/or by which constituencies it is considered so. Until these are dealt with, the current version will do. Corticopia 02:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
where is the WP policy that says all sources must be in english????Chico 13:59, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I would also like to know where is the policy that Chico is asking for. Just because something doesn't exist in your own language it doesn't mean that it doesnt exist. If there are no sources in spanish for certain article, Wikipedians can use sources in english. It would be idiotic to deny knowledge to people just because the original source is not in their languages --132.248.59.44 17:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
NO policy allows for the POV-pushing and undue weight of recent edits while allowing for C.'s deletionsubstitution of legitimate English citations which indicate something different. Until the requests above are fulfilled to satisfaction or compelled otherwise, the current intro shall stand. Corticopia 03:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Content Note

This dispute has been going on forever, I have justified my edits over a thousand times, and I did not remove any information from the article, I added information. Attacks aside, why not I compromise? we leave the intro saying it is a continent, with a content note labeled not continent? explaining the other point of view that sees South America as subcontinent. We explain the whole thing in the content note, in consensus; and the reader can be better informed. How about it? I am going to try to work on the content of the note and post it here. Lets work together, not separate.Chico 15:43, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes: this dispute will continue until you edit within the norms of Misplaced Pages policy and procedures. Though I do not dispute other reckonings, every major English reference unambiguously refers to South American as a continent. The reference you added from the International Olympic Committee (no dispute), while deleting two that were present and directly relevant, only indicates that America is a continent (and this is duly noted in the 'continent' article) -- while I do not necessarily dispute this, it does not refer to South America as a subcontinent, so this is a misplaced reference. Anyhow, the notion regarding South America's reckoning as a subcontinent is already equitably noted in the 1st sentence of the 'Geography' section; otherwise, I defer to my prior comments. Corticopia 17:33, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Come again?? What policies have I violated?? By the way, if you really feel that I have violated the "norms of Misplaced Pages policy and procedures" feel free to open a request for comment on my actions. Please also answer my previous question about which policy indicates for English only sources. Just a reminder, I have not attacked you and I would very much thank you if you were to remain civil.Chico 00:51, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
An administrator who previously commented on this page, regarding this very issue, indicated the need for English sources that usual editors can verify: if they are not in English, a usual visitor cannot corroborate assertions. In any event, the source you've added only indicates that America is considered a continent (by the IOC), it doesn't indicate South America is a subcontinent. You also added this while removing two other reliable sources referring to South America as a 'continent' (which is ubiquitous in English) in the very first sentence (which is arguably vandalism) and notions of it being a subcontinent are already equitable dealt with in the 'Geography' section, so I suggest you think twice before insinuating anything regarding incivility or what have you. Corticopia 14:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This is a Misplaced Pages in English, therefore, the lead section should define South America as it is done in the English-speaking world: a continent. You cannot ask the Spanish or the Portuguese Wikipedias to define South America as a continent, because that model is not used in the Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking world. Nonetheless, this article already complies with WP:NPOV because it also includes the alternative definitions used in other areas of the world, albeit in the Geography section. All points of view are already included and given their due weight, something that is not done neither in the Spanish nor in the Portuguese Wikipedias. --the Dúnadan 15:48, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Sources

I have found a number of sources in English reffering specifically to South America as a subcontinent, but by weight I am satisfied with the current content note. I am going to post the sources on the article. By the way, the google search for South America subcontinent yielded about 1,280,000 results. I am sure more sources could be found on closer inspection. Chico 01:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC) I need help to cite these I tried to use the cite web template but it resulted in truncating the rest of the article.... Any suggestions to cite the sites?? Chico 01:33, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I, however, am not satisfied -- again, please read the policy regarding undue weight. I grant that you've located a number of English sources to corroborate these assertions (namely from the Brazilian Embassy), but these shall not and can't usurp the ubiquitous English reckoning of South America as a continent. Evey major English compendium indicates this. This content is already equitably dealt with in the 'Geography' section, the references of which you removed when placing your content. As well, in opposition to your online count above (which merely appears to search for any instances of those terms), there are 184K instances of 'South American continent' as opposed to just 400 for 'South American subcontinent' - a ratio of 460 to 1. Per WP:NPOV: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." Until you can demonstrate otherwise ... Corticopia 14:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

What do you need to be convinced about the need for a more representative of South America as a subcontinent? I certainly agree that there is no need for it in the intro, but a content note? there are at least half a billion people(in Latin America alone) who agree with the South America is a subcontinent view, I got you English sources so you can verify, I certainly can understand doubts about it, but burying it in the geography section is not due weight, when you talk about a certain theory and there is an opposing theory of prominence(even a english speaker adheres) it should be stated right after. South America as subcontinent is at least a theory held by significant minority (we would still have to count the countries that teach each viewpoint to determine the majority's viewpoint but this is pointless). Chico 19:11, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

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