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User talk:Durin

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Mail for me
Mail for me

Wry cAn'T I HaVE my FAIR uSE ImAGeS on mY UsER PaGE?

Hopefully you will get a laugh out of my topic. In any case I'd like to thank you for comming up with the header on User:Gnome (Bot)'s talk page. The number of messages that I, and the bot receive has dropped significantly. As such, I'd like to give you this award. :)

The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
Thanks for helping out with Gnome (Bot), and attempting to keep fair use images out of userspace, and other locations where there is no real justifiable fair use rational. —— Eagle101 07:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Enjoy. :) —— Eagle101 07:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

adminy favour?

An editor who already feels inconvenienced and accosted by me (User talk:pd THOR#Image constantly being removed) is continuing to violate the NFCC . In lastly dealing with him, I made it plain that I would elevate the issue over this behaivour if he continued. ... and here I am. — pd_THOR | 22:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Apologies

I am sorry. I had not heard from you in a week and I know you've been very busy. I had already touched base before and I did not want to pester you. Then, someone else offered and I accepted. I should have at the very least left you a courtesy note here or by email. Please accept my sincere apology for my lack of thought and courtesy. Vassyana 14:14, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

  • That was so thoughtless of you. I think I'll oppose your RfA! Just kidding :) No worries. I was mildly disappointed because I thought you'd make a good guinea pig, but it's no biggie. --Durin 14:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Hmmm, I wonder what I would have to do to offend you enough to get you to !vote in the Oppose section. :D Kidding aside, it was a bit thoughtless of me. Thank you for being kind about it. If elected President-General of the Grand Sacred Electorate of the Hidden Holy Cabal of Jimboism, I promise you six shrubberies and a plastic pine tree. :) Vassyana 14:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
  • You're in luck!! I live in a town just outside of Buffalo known for its plentiful pink flamingos. (Seriously.) My supply here is plentiful and cheap. While in some ways it's fascinating and cool, in other ways it's pretty frightening. Vassyana 14:36, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Yep. The bridge is about a 20 minute or so drive from me. Any other photos from the area needed? I think I have tons and tons of Falls photos. :P I can do some photo stuff over the weekend. (Neat. I've never contributed photos before.) I don't drive (yech), but I can get around. Oh, and aboot da flamingos. Vassyana 14:42, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Ha! "disturbs me" Funny! Cast about for articles of regional interest. Also, sign up for Commons; upload your images there. --Durin 14:47, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Some Candidates for you

Some worthy candidates?

Hi Durin, I heard you were looking for Guinea Pigs, so, herewith: Nibbles and Strips, both fine specimens I'm sure you'll agree.

I've been keeping half an eye on things during my extended break. I'm not sure what the RfA solution may be, or even that the intrinsic "process" is really that fundamentally flawed, alhough the current working of the process probably is. My initial gut feeling is that any probable solution revolves around the Bureaucrat issue - more of them, wider discussion of disputed promotions etc. After all, they are there to judge consensus and implement the will of the community. More explanation, transparency and openness about these matters never hurts, usually always helps and is the way things should be done.

I also think LateNightDoubleFeatureCreature deserves recognition for Username of the Year. If I find a suitable barnstar I'll lob it on your page to add to Rhetorical rhino, Flippant,One-man wrecking ball, Wiki Bully!, The Boss, and Proud Blithering Idiot.

:) --Cactus.man ✍ 22:06, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Heh :) Yeah that name popped out of my deranged head. Further evidence I need help :) Other than "blithering idiot" the other badges of honor were said of me, so that's how they got there. I've frequently been referred to as an idiot though, thus "blithering idiot". Glad you read the essay. Feedback? Thanks for heads up on the rodents. Holiday weekend and all, it'll have to wait until next week at least. --Durin 12:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

La Toya Jackson discography

Fine, whatever. I'm so exausted and annoyed that I've wasted my entire morning trying to add Fair use rationales to EVERY La Toya Jackson album and single cover. I've already spent nearly an hour on it and am not going to go back and remove where it says "Fair use rationale in... and La Toya Jackson discography". I still have tons of single covers to go, and am extremely annoyed and frustrated that the policies on Misplaced Pages have become so overbearing that I've considered not contributing any further. Rhythmnation2004 15:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I'm sorry this is a burden to you. There's no intent whatsoever to push you off the project. These guidelines and policies are an outcome of the stance taken by the Wikimedia Foundation regarding non-free licensed material. See m:Resolution:Licensing policy. It's exceptionally difficult to make all people happy in any sufficiently large group. Before the Foundation took this stance, there were people equally upset that fair use was being heavily misused and in many cases abused outright. So, these people are happy, but people who'd like to see a more liberal policy are angered by it. There's no 'winning' this in such a way that everyone is happy. We have to stay focused on our goal. Our goal is to create a free encyclopedia. Fair use, copyrighted images are not free. Thus, the Foundation's stance on limiting their use. --Durin 15:21, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Discography discussion

I noticed your message to Rhythmnation2004 on his talk page. I am interested in getting the pointer to the discussion of fair use discographies to use as I clear some out today. Thanks. ~ BigrTex 15:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I'd tried to find the LoE discussion by searching the WP:AN archives and was frustrated that I couldn't find it. Apparently, I started monitoring WP:AN about the time that the discussion was moved. ~ BigrTex 16:15, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


Licencing Issue

I don't realy understand what your problem is with my evidence about those images but the licence on that website does not specify what the word "text" means (only the included "text" of the site or everything).

And I'm saying that because there is no seperate image or graph policy on that website. The only policy is the one i provided, so it is assumable that it refers to the whole content of the website. However I will look into it more carefuly, BUT, in case of one and only policy proved (which includes the word "text" and that word ony), I'm quite certain the pictures should be posted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kompikos (talk • contribs) 21:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

  • The site license says "All TEXT is available under the terms of the GFDL" (emphasis mine). It doesn't say anything about the images. It's as if I copied the logo for Coca-Cola onto a webpage, then wrote about the logo. I can release rights to the text under GFDL, but the rights to the logo are held by Coca-Cola. That website does not have rights to the images. Hope this helps, --Durin 21:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Adminship

Okay, you've made your point. But recently RfA's have been passing virtually unanimously at seemingly a record rate. So, when do you want your adminship back? :) Regards, Newyorkbrad 00:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana's RfA

Hi Durin,

I hope you don't mind me contacting you directly. Yes, you are perfectly justified in asking for clarification. In fact, I've done the same in the past. My concern, however, is twofold: first, when I first read your question, I mistook it as sarcasm as well. It's only when I recognized your name (from your RfB and the WP:CHU thing) and reread your comments, that I eventually figured out that you were serious. Second, as you are aware, there is sometimes only a fine line between discussion and disruption. Discussing the matter is fine. Asking someone who opposes a candidate you (and I) support for a rundown of his decision making process, however, is a bit much and, frankly, I'd rather not have that discussion disrupt the RfA.

Granted, in this case, there's very little chance of such a disruption actually derailing the RfA but, nonetheless, it's not exactly ideal.

Do me a favor and reread your comment and try to put yourself in the shoes of a less experienced contributor. I think you'll see how someone might consider your response a bit harsh, if not outright aggressive. To make myself clear, I have no problem whatsoever with you asking for clarification. It's just that I think you could have phrased it a bit better (especially since this isn't a controversial RfA and there's no way it's not going to succeed). No offense. -- Seed 2.0 00:58, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Left my final response on Vassyana's RfA

I've left my final response to your comments at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Vassyana. I wish you had simply respected my view that Vassyana needed more experience. The endless back and forth has made it appear that I have a grudge or something against Vassyana (which is not true). The discussion also distracts from the RfA. Perhaps I shouldn't have responded to you, but your insinuations that I was opposing Vassyana's RfA b/c of Editcountitis or for no reason at all was wrong. As I said all along, I would support Vassyana for admin with a little more experience. If you can't accept that statement, then there's nothing more I can do to change your mind. --Alabamaboy 01:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Please note that while I have changed my "oppose" to neutral b/c the debate over my opinion was distracting from the RfA, I did leave a specific response to your request for diffs. --Alabamaboy 02:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I do not treat RfA as a vote. I treat it as a consensus garnering mechanism. My queries to you were to attempt to discern what your basis for opposition was, when it appeared highly contradictory. I am sorry you are offended by my queries. --Durin 12:41, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

My RfA

Hey Durin. Man oh man are you ungrateful. After I've patiently helped you clear all of these misconceptions you had about the RfA process you still don't participate (or vote) in my second go at RfA? You're breaking my heart. :-) Cheers, Pascal.Tesson 13:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

  • You ungrateful sot! I spent a week perched on top of a lonely mountain (albeit with a nice wireless connection) in prayer for the success of your RfA. I sacrificed a number of virgins, burned a number of immature pigs alive, coated my body in ochre and endured the raving pillages of a thousand mosquitoes all in the name of you having a successful RfA. And what happens? It passes without a single oppose, and you blast me for not contributing? All that sacrifice on my part for your ungrateful attitude? I hate you. Go away. That's the last time I give up a week in my concubine. --Durin 13:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
ah yes, my bad then. I was wondering how I managed to pass unanimously and yeah, the virgin sacrifice explains it all. Pascal.Tesson 15:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Image Uploading

Hi Durin and thanks for your message. As far as image uploading is concerned, you probably know better than me that its impossible for most matterial that is uploaded to wikipedia to contact and hold a copyright licence from the original creator of the image, because images are not always downloaded from the original copyright holder and most of them are found on websites that upload them without having contacted the original copyright holder. With that in mind, it is impossible for me to find and contact each time every copyright holder and wait for reply, so i choose to download them from secondary uploaders on other non copyrighted websites and edit them, avoiding to download images from official websites. I realy don't know any other way to post images, almost everyhting on the web belong to someone (copyrighted or not), but is found posted again almost everywhere. If i can't find a way to upload images in a manner that noone is legaly ofended, every article will be just plain text and nothing else. I would love to get your help over this. Thank you -- kompikos 13:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

  • The problem is the original copyright holder still retains rights, even if you found the image on a non-copyrighted website. I recognize this can make it difficult for people to find images to go with some articles. Nevertheless, Misplaced Pages strives to have free license content, not copyrighted content. Even if this means some or even many articles lack imagery, we prefer that over an article with a copyrighted image. In this case, a number of the images I am finding are ones that could be readily replicated by a wikipedian having a camera and some time on his hands. For example, there's an image of academy graduation. Though I was not able to positively verify that Image:Orkomosia.jpg, I strongly suspect it is a copyright violation. Someone with a camera could just as well attend a graduation, take some pictures, and upload them here, under a free license.
  • At Misplaced Pages, we assume something is copyrighted unless we have absolute proof that it is available under a free license. Thus, finding something on the web does, even if from a non-copyrighted website, does not necessarily clear it of copyright. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Upload, and note where it says "Do not upload images found on websites or on an image search engine. They will be deleted." We're quite serious about this. I assume you live in Greece? Grab a camera and take a trip to the Naval Academy and/or a naval base. Take lots of pictures, upload the best ones here, and release them under a free license. --Durin 13:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Yes i live in Greece, but Durin, especialy for the military pages i'm involved with editing, its absolutely impossible to take pictures of military equipment and/or officers without permission in Greece because one can be acused od spying (this is the law). All uploaded images on the internet of greek military equipment or facilities are either directly released by the Armed Forces General Staff, or taken by officers (who have the right to post them under direct permission). A civilian cannot do this unless it's greek military equipment photographed in a foreign country or a graduation image photographed by a parent. I haven't uploaded anything that has been directly released in the official armed forces websites (because they are strictly copyrighted), but only pictures released with the above credentials i've mentioned. In these cases, the copyright may indeed be hold by a civilian or officer but has been given permission to be released on public domains on the internet. In other cases, unofficial military sites upload these images and copyright them under their domain. I haven't used such images either. Anyway, I don't know what I should do but I understand your concerns and wiki policy. However if the above clarifications help you look into it about greek military images and adjust in a legal way the policy, that would be great. Thanks again -- kompikos 14:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
      • What does "release" mean? Images can be released for a number of purposes, and this does not necessarily mean they are released under a free license. For example, Reuters news agency routinely releases images for use to subscribers of their service; this does not place the images under a free license. Can you cite the Greek law covering this? If the images are strictly copyrighted, it does not seem they have been released under a free license. Unofficial sites that take these images and host them on their sites may be breaking copyright; we have to know what the original status of the images in, whether that is codified in law or if there exists specific releases for these images. I'm interested if there is Greek law supporting all images by them being in public domain. In the United States virtually all images taken by military personnel are, by law, in the public domain. Is there are similar law in Greece? Can you cite it? --Durin 14:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Images copyrighted by the armed forces are "released" for promotional purposes of equipment and work and are not free. Images taken by military personnel on the other hand are uploaded after given permission (by their superiors) but have the exact status like in the US (they are free). I'll find the law and i'll get back to you -- kompikos 14:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

There's always a few, hmmm? Funny story, I think you were my first introduction to the words 'fair use' - you removed a logo from one of my userboxes waaaay back last year :) Anyway, take care! Riana ⁂ 15:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • In any sufficiently large group, yes there are always a few :) Can't be helped. Yes, it's funny about the turn around...you responded positively. Some, well...don't. --Durin 15:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Adminship

Yeah, what NYB said above. When delivering your guinea pigs I meant to express my horror that you had resigned your adminship!!! I understand that frustration can drive you to implement desperate measures on occasion, but this ... ?

To repeat the mantra, "Adminship is no big deal". Although many people on both sides of the fence work feverishly, by words or actions, to disabuse people of the simple truth encapsulated therein, it's still a refreshingly appropriate view of what it should be. You could do so much more with the tools, and as you often point out, it matters not whether an admin uses them once, once a year, once a month, day, hour or minute. If they are used wisely for the betterment of WP, that's a good thing. Which is what RfA really is all about, selecting suitable editors to use the additional tools appropriately.

Now that your holiday weekend is over, go and get your tools back. BTW, I missed your RfB nomination but I'll definitely catch the next one :-) We do need more crats. As for feedback on the essay, well I'll ponder that for a bit longer. Hell, it might even inspire me to go and write one of my own - not something I'm usually inclined to do. --Cactus.man ✍ 17:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I won't be running another RfB. When I ran, it was with full knowledge that it would fail. It was part of a larger strategy that began in January of this year upon realizing a number of things. I've written extensively elsewhere on this, and I'd be happy to point you to various diffs regarding this if you like (short on tonight though), but in a nutshell; I intended to resign adminship all along, and felt the need to do so as part of a larger reform effort. Once my efforts are done either successfully or unsuccessfully, my purpose at Misplaced Pages will be complete. I'll step away. That's not to say that I think Misplaced Pages is bad or anything like that, just that my work is done. I largely gave up on the main namespace near three months ago now. I gave up on images too, but went back into that sandtrap to help get fair use things in order. I've been especially pleased by the introduction of a fair use bot to remove fair use abuses outside of mainspace. There's other things I could do here, but there's other things in the 'real' world for me to do as well. --Durin 21:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
No need for diffs, the one half of my eyeball pair that was working during my break caught most of them, the other half can track down the rest (I think).
I understand your frustration, and desire to reform, but I don't think this is the way to achieve it - by walking away. My time tonight is also limited - (Horlicks and all that, not that I've ever consumed it : ) All I'll say for now is that you popped up, out of the blue, to plonk me up for RfA when I was pretty disillusioned with most things around here and your words of encouragement were decisive in my decision to accept the nomination, and to continue working here. Those very same words should be directed back to you now, because they apply equally well.
Wikibreak, recreation, family, friends, foreign travel, strong coffee, whatever - take some time out and reconsider? I'll hopefully expand on this later, but whatever the outcome, I'll respect your decision.
The debate over Misplaced Pages as a successful / reliable / viable long term endevour is another kettle of fish entirely. --Cactus.man ✍ 22:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)--Cactus.man ✍ 22:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm perhaps not making a clear distinction. I'm not disillusioned with the project as a whole. I do think it faces some serious obstacles. Regardless, my desire to leave has little to do with the obstacles. It's likely I'll hang around a bit, poke at things here and there. But, my involvement is eroding. --Durin 13:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Your comments at the RfA

Dear Durin,

Thank you for your providing your honest evaluation of me at the RfA. I wish to address some of the points you have raised. It is not my goal to try to get you to change your opinion or to justify my actions, but simply to shed light on the issues you've highlighted.

  • Regarding my comment to Tony Sidaway. I did and do not view his suggestion to be either reasonable or polite. That said, my comment was hostile and the last two sentences were entirely inappropriate ... there is no excuse for it and I regret having written it.
  • Regarding my comment to David Gerard. David Gerard had "started noting when a given oppose is irrelevant to the question "is this person likely to cause damage with the admin tools?" and suggest it be ignored" in multiple RfAs. I did and still do consider this an inappropriate practice. In my comment, I asked him to stop his postings (not to stop posting to RfAs altogether but to stop requesting that the comments of other editors be ignored). Though my claim that his posts "come off as disrespectful and arrogant" was perhaps worded strongly, it was my honest evaluation that any call to simply ignore another editor and forgo the option of engaging them in discourse is disrespectful.
  • Regarding my views on Misplaced Pages:Consensus not numbers. Quite simply, consensus cannot be determined by numbers and percentages. So, why do I still believe percentages should be taken into consideration when closing RfAs? Well, for two reasons. First, I view RfA to be primarily about trust ... something as basic and personal as that can often not be affected by the limited amount of communication that usually takes place in RfAs. Second, I would prefer to see the RfA process combine consensus-making and voting for the sake of efficiency ... though I generally dislike votes, the simple fact is that they're faster. This is why I recommend that RfA be governed by voting in the 0-65% and 80-100% ranges and by bureaucrats' evaluation of consensus in the 66-79% range.
    • My views on RfA do not carry over to my views on XfD, which is where admins have discretion (please see, for instance, this comment I made to Walton monarchist89). I believe XfDs should be closed on the basis of policy-informed consensus. The only thing that matters in deletion debates is the strength of the arguments made and how they do or do not reflect existing policies and guidelines. Numbers are only useful as a cautionary device. If an admin is closing a discussion against the recommendations of the supermajority of participants (excluding socks and SPAs) in an XfD, he or she should more carefully consider whether his or her understanding/application of policy is indeed correct. In that case, the closing admin may wish to confer with others, to leave the closing to someone else, or to become a participant in the discussion and express his or her take on the situation. If my RfA succeeds, I will naturally start by closing less controversial deletion debates and will progress to more controversial closings as I acquire experience.

I both understand and respect your position, and hope my reply addresses (even if it does not alleviate) some of your concerns. Best, Black Falcon 00:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

  • Your RfA will pass easily. I was conscious of this when I left my comments. Nevertheless, I left them anyways because it is important to convey opinions that shed light on negative behaviors. You admit above that you acted improperly with respect to Tony and David. These should be cautionary to you. When you become an admin, you're going to come under a lot more fire than you've come under before. So far, I've not been impressed with how you've handled yourself under fire. Nobody is perfect; this is simply an area you need to work on. --Durin 12:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I will take your comments to heart and will indeed work to improve myself in this regard. I hope to ensure that there will not be a repeat of the above. Thank you again for bringing your concerns to my attention, Black Falcon 18:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Durin. My RfA was closed as successful a short while ago and I want to thank you again for bringing to my attention something that I need to be mindful of. I sincerely hope to disprove your prediction that my being an admin would create "more problems for the project than would solve" (and I'm sure you do as well). Anyway, if you ever find me making any mistakes, throw something my way and I'll promptly fix them. :) Cheers, Black Falcon 05:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Do I get to choose how much mass the thing I throw at you has and whether or not it contains explosives? ;) Congrats on passing. I hope I am proved wrong too. --Durin 05:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Please do explain to me..

I'm am trying to figure out how to make this image Image:IDF new.jpg legal on wikipedia.. it is just the emblem of the IDF.. there is no reason why it shouldn't be up there. --Acidburn24m 14:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

On the cost of blocks

(Replying here as the AN/I discussion is already getting too long.) Blocks are for harm reduction. I see more harm in a block here, than in Giano giving his blunt, even harshly worded, assessment of someone's edits. He's also allowed to say "go away, I have better things to do" if someone comes to his talk page with things he considers time-wasters. If you feel he was out of line, by all means, tell him. There no need for a block to tell him his comments weren't acceptable- that's the kind of message that's better sent with words. Being uncivil already has a cost, even without a block- you spend your social capital when you don't play nice with others. Friday (talk) 15:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I don't give a pair of dingos kidneys about social capital. I believe it is one of the chief problems that undermines our efforts here. Giano might not like what someone else is saying/doing with regards to an article. That gives him no leave to refer to that person as a menace to the project. Hemlock was entirely in the right for attempting to cool him down, and entirely in the right for blocking him when Giano insulted him. Hemlock was a messenger only. He was aside from the dispute, and attempted to remain outside of it. Giano assaulted him anyways. And what happens? Giano gets backed up, and Hemlock is left out to dry as making an inappropriate block. Insanity. Pure insanity. --Durin 15:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, perhaps there's no seeing eye-to-eye here. But, just for another perspective, it almost appeared to me like Hemlock saw that his message was not well-received and then decided to block because his warning wasn't given the respect he apparently felt it deserved. To me (and, I think, to others) it looks like Hemlock was "throwing his weight around" in an inappropriate way for an admin. Friday (talk) 15:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Durin, if you really believe Misplaced Pages needs to be such a namby-pamby place that people should be reflexively blocked for pointing out in less-than-PC-terms that the sum total of someone's edits do more harm than good to the encyclopedia (for that is what Giano's statement means), then you yourself are the menace here. Hemlock's block was bad, and he should be hung out to dry. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Fair Use images

Hey, I notice that you removed some fair-use images from my user page. I certainly have no problem with the policy, I just wish you would have sent an accompanying message so I understood without having to look at my history page. Thank you. 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Nevermore27 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Charts and Logos

Hello, if you are going to be removing logos from charts and such like you did at Kootenay International Junior Hockey League, please refrain from leaving the chart in tatters. DMighton 15:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be harsh, I was just asking you to take notice that's all. This fairuse rational thing from Betacommandbot has me retagging things left, right, and centre, it has been mildly frustrating. Either way... carry on. DMighton 15:54, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I did take notice. I made attempts to fix the chart away from three columns and the attempts I made were unsuccessful. So, I left it for someone else to fix. Believe in the power of m:Eventualism. The important thing is the fair use violations were removed. Whether the chart still looked perfect or not is a secondary consideration. --Durin 15:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

How very dare you !

  • Accusing me of uploading images without Fair Use rationale. I haven't!
  • Messing around with my User Page. What a pathetic way to spend your time!

PaddyBriggs 16:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

  • There was a well established practice on Wiki that Book Covers may be used. Maybe the rules have changed. As I have said I really don't care. If it pleases you to do what you seem to find amusing that's sad. But don't hide behind a "Bot". It's human intervation. It's you. And it sucks. PaddyBriggs 16:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Book covers can be used. But, a fair use rationale must be provided. I've provided you with a link with instructions on how to craft one. I recommend using it. Complaining to me won't change our policies. I'm sorry. As to the rest, why thank you for the compliment! --Durin 16:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Removal of images from templates that are already on Misplaced Pages

You recently removed links to already established images in some templates I made. If the images are already on Misplaced Pages, and fair use has been established, what is wrong with me linking to them? -- Elaich 19:33, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Your online handle

Durin, I just finished re-reading The Hobbit, and of course I thought of Misplaced Pages in the process. I'm curious, did you get your online handle from Tolkien's mythological character (or from the Norse mythological character it is based upon)? --Iamunknown 20:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

User:Durin/Fair Use Overuse

I just wanted to let you know that I added a note to the top of User:Durin/Fair Use Overuse to let users know to tag unused fair use Images with Template:Orphaned fairuse not replaced, although it's common sense, some people forget to do this. I wanted to also let you review what I did to Zorro before continuing on removing Fair Use Images to see if I was correct in doing that. Regards, — Moe ε 22:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:One_Star_DB.png

Fair use outside of mainspace, with at least 4 templates, and 3 other related images. I am going to bed shortly, but could you look into this? Thanks. —— Eagle101 03:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Template:Trainweb

I don't agree that this is free.

You may post TrainWeb photos to other websites or use them in print media without charge and without any further permission from TrainWeb. However, "www.trainweb.com" must be printed either on or near the photo, or in another area where credit is provided to photos used in your material or on your website. You may use small font sizes as long as the credit is readable. Web Sites must include a link to "www.trainweb.com". Your cooperation is appreciated. If the photos will be used in print and you are providing credits for all photos in that publication in a location that is not directly on or next to each photos, that is acceptable, but less preferred than placing the credit right on or by each photo.

"You may post" would not include derivative works, "websites or use them in print media" is restrictive (Misplaced Pages CD is not print or a website), and commercial use is not explicitly granted. Also, please see the discussion about this on my talk page and Misplaced Pages:Non-free content/templates. Kotepho 04:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Sampling and Sampling+ are non-free licenses for the purpose of Misplaced Pages. Sampling alone only gives permission for "Re-creativity" and Sampling+ allows you to use a whole work (without the "Re-creativity") in non-commercial circumstances. Kotepho 13:38, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Pinging this as I replied when you were repling to someone else and didn't get the ugly orange bar--if I'm wrong, sorry. Also see Template:Cc-sampling and Misplaced Pages:Non-free content/templates about cc-sampling too. Kotepho 15:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Ping pang. Thanks for the ping :) This was my first exposure to that particular license. It seems to me it's free. You feel it isn't. That's fine. Retag it as non-free, but I'd modify the template to have a red C or some such. --Durin 15:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Question about Fair Use Overuse

Hi, in User:Durin/Fair Use Overuse, Bounts in Bleach has been given the all clear. Is that really okay? Thanks. ElinorD (talk) 08:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Debatable. There's not been a clear stance (that I know of) regarding articles like this that are list of characters. It's probably not acceptable in general, but specific cases may vary. --Durin 13:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The recent fair-use debate

Hi Durin. I don't want to seem like I'm wiki-stalking you, but I saw that you suggested the Signpost to write about the recent debate. That's a good idea I think. Just some comments. I think this debate is different form the previous ones. I completely agree with you about fair use images in project space. There is no way we can claim fair use for that. I can agree about large galleries too. Fair use does only allow limited use after all. But for one low-res image of the box of a computer game on the page about that game, I think we definitely can. I support the free content movement and I wish we could have only free content. But for things like logos and album covers, there is now way we can make a free version. Even the Misplaced Pages logo is not free. Good night :-) --Apoc2400 16:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No album covers??

I fully agree with Apoc2400. Are all album covers outside of bands with a Creative Commons license to be deleted? At the risk of being human, I have to wonder if these actions would be truly in the spirit of Misplaced Pages, or merely pedantic. I'll wager on the latter. --K d f m 22:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Thank you for accusing me of being pedantic. I'm honored! Nobody is suggesting that all album covers be deleted. What is being asked for is that a fair use rationale be provided for each use of each image. This is per our policies. It is no different than asking people to provide a license for an image they upload, or for people to avoid revert wars, or any other policy based actions here. --Durin 22:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

A possible solution for the Fair Use Rationale problem

Hey there. These are some thoughts i posted on betacommand's page, but you seem to be taking more of an active role in this situation now than he. Many people are upset about what betacommandbot is doing - tagging pretty much all fair use images for deletion. The reason why this is such a problem is because it is not clear in any way that individual rationale needs to be added for every "fair use" image. The upload page is overwhelming, and the only mention of fair use rationale is in some brackets for the box marked "summary." Most people just ignore this box, thinking it isn't really necessary. Rationale is supposed to be given in a specific form (found on Template:Non-free_media_rationale), or it is preferred if it is given in that form. What should be done is that if an image is uploaded with the "fair use" template selected, it should bring up another page to fill out the fair use rationale (asking if its low resolution, etc.). This would make it so that hopefully, the bot would become superfluous at some point in time. What do you think? SECProto 13:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

  • I've seen similar suggestions. This could work, but it requires a code change. I'm not a developer. I think suspending CSD I6 until such time as we get a better handle on this problem is an equitable solution. I don't think suspending the bot is the right way to go, because the bot is doing a fantastic job of identifying those images missing the rationale. --Durin 13:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I had never considered that, actually. I agree that, if it's needed, all images should certainly have fair use rationales added. My main concern was that many images which were fine, but simply lacking a rationale, would be speedy deleted. I would certainly agree with suspending CSD I6. SECProto 14:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok

Yeah, I heard about not using the fair use images like album covers on certain pages. I just didn't get round to removing them (exams!) Therefore have only been doing a few edits, and mainly just answering anything left on my talk page. I don't really have time to put comments on all those images, but I agree with the deltion of them all! Asics talk 14:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

DIfference between these Images

In effort of trying to understand the Fair Use Policy, what is the difference betwenn these two images: *Image:Rebel Alliance logo.png


And these two:


] was on a Userbox, but you told me it couldn't be used on {{User:Tyty1234/rebeloverempire}} and {{User:Tyty1234/empireoverrebel}}. But ] is being used and I was wondering why it can be on the Userbox {{Template:user LimeWire}}. The PSP and The DS pics are part of a userbox too. Can you let me know? Thanks! Tyty1234 04:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

  • The rebell alliance logo is copyrighted and rights are reserved. Thus, it must be used under terms of fair use. Our fair use policies do not permit the use of fair use images outside of the main article namespace. The Limewire logo comes from a free software package. Commons presumes that while Limewire may retain copyright, there's no profit loss possibility from the use of the logo since it is freely available. Thus, not used under fair use. In the case of the last two, it's images of potentially copyrighted works. Technically, the makers of the objects retain rights. In practice, this rights tend not to be of concern here. --Durin 17:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow

Durin, I must say that I am impressed with essay on transformative and derivative works. And I am glad that you put out that we simply do not know whether or not specific uses are "fair uses". I think people often forget how little the United States code defines what is a "fair use" (compared to, say, the United States tax code ;)) (only two paragraphs and a four-part list!), and to what extent case law defines what is a "fair use". Anyways, I must say that your essays are masterfully written and researched, and were some of the most informative copyright-related information I've read in a while (that said, I'll make not to take what you wrote as legal advice). (And on a separate but not wholly-unrelated note, what do you think of Image:Univision logo.png? Fair use or not?) Cheers, Iamunknown 20:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

  • Thank you for the compliments :) My own understanding of fair use has been evolving over the last year. It's been an educational experience. What is clear is that fair use law is not clear. To use one judge's terms (in an unrelated case) "there is no bright line" at which a usage becomes fair or remains piracy. If there were a bright line, this would be considerably easier to judge.
  • Since we can not definitively define a narrow line in the sand, it is far safer for Misplaced Pages to stay well clear of cases that might be questionable. Certainly purely identifying uses are not within that realm of clear of the line.
  • If we were to accept pure identification of a given thing as reasonable fair use, then in the vast majority of cases where we use fair use images we could simply say "for identification purposes" and be done with it, which is essentially what has happened at Image:Univision logo.png. This is the sort of case a number of people in opposition to BetacommandBot are arguing in favor of. This sort of fair use rationale could be done with a template, and does not need to identify any particular article.
  • Yet, as some have pointed out, the legal ramifications of this are purely a small subset of the greater ramifications of fair use in our project. There is a clear legal threat that descends from this use, that much is certain. That it has not yet been acted upon does not minimize this threat or making it worthy of derision as "paranoia". But, the larger set is our purpose, our mission. In understanding this, it is important to read m:Mission which says in part "...under a free content license" Under no definition can fair use be considered as contributing to that element of our mission as it is not free content. Thus, fair use images are contrary to our mission. Jimbo has taken a clear stance on this, though in so doing has stated this is not policy. In sum, he has said that he wants fair use to be as limited as possible, preferably to a small handful of highly important historical photographs. For example, an image taken right after Kennedy was shot (Image:Altgens mary ferrell.jpg) would be allowable under his philosophy. But, a base album cover would have no standing. This is a very important concept, and one that is lost on many of the people in favor of fair use images. We are here to build a free content encyclopedia. Anything that detracts from this is contrary to our purpose.
  • My personal stance at this point is that we should eliminate fair use in all cases but an extreme minority. My position is very similar to Jimbo's position.
  • My current understanding of our fair use principles (as opposed to personal stance) on Misplaced Pages is that if a fair use image is to be used, it must contribute significantly to the article (see Misplaced Pages:Non-free content criteria #8) and from that same policy, that the use of such images in "user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative". I regard info boxes (such as Template:Infobox Album) as being user-interface elements. They are not there for the purposes of critical commentary, and do not constitute any sort of intellectual labor regarding the copyrighted work (per Folsom v. Marsh, 9 F.Cas. 342).
  • To clarify this, a navigational template located on the bottom of the page (for example Template:General Motors brands could just as well have a fair use image (Image:Gm2.jpg) because it serves to identify the company in question on the template. Yet, we strictly *forbid* such use, even it it is not hard coded into the template, but coded into the page itself. If we forbid it on navigational templates for identification purposes (which, according to some, is sufficient for fair use defense) then why is it ok for identification purposes on an infobox?
  • Thus, in sum, I do not feel Image:Univision logo.png constitutes fair use in its current form. From cursory review, it appears the logo is not actually discussed, but only serves identification purposes. This, in my current understanding of our principles here, is not allowable and should be deprecated. Hope this clarifies my position :) --Durin 20:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC) I gotta stop typing!

Fair Use Rational

"What is being asked for is that a fair use rationale be provided for each use of each image." What should one write? And why is the tag not self-explanatory? Is this not why we have tags? If you could give me an answer as to what I could write, I'd appreciate it. I just want your bot off my case. --K d f m 03:10, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Update of number of 'Fair Use' images

I'd appreciate you running whatever robot it is that collects stats on the number of fair use images per page. I noted that the page I wrote was linked to some list that gave the total as eight, so I removed all but one image. However, the page is still listed as having eight images for which "fair use" was (fairly!) being claimed. The robot should have been activated when I saved the page, and the list ammended accordingly. Sa cooke 06:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

  • The list is not updated automatically. In fact, it's working off a data set ~1 month old. If the page you are concerned about has had fair use usage reduced, you've nothing to worry about. --Durin 12:16, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Is this Commons image really free?

Hi, Durin. I normally go to Jkelly with my questions about image copyrights, but I know he's very busy at the moment, and I know you're an admin at Commons. I recently found a lot of "fair use" images in userboxes and templates at French Misplaced Pages. In particular, I found that Harry Potter's signature was in a userbox and in various templates for Wikiprojects, etc. I found a free Harry Potter image at Commons. (Many Harry Potter images at Commons are or were up for deletion as derivative, but I thought this one looked okay.) Since a lot of these userboxes and templates were transcluded, I managed, in about five edits, to remove that signature from about two hundred non-mainspace pages. I then asked Jkelly about how the fair use policy applies to French Misplaced Pages. He suggested that if I brought it up at the French Village Pump, an administrator would probably take care of it. I did, here, and a French administrator removed the images from the boxes I had mentioned. Then, someone else called "Ironie" began to put free images in instead. Instead of the McDonald's and Burger King logos, there was now a simple image of a hamburger. However, Ironie's edit to the Disney userbox was rolled back without comment by an administrator. Someone else re-inserted the Disney logo, and the administrator rolled back again. You can see the page history here.

If the image that Ironie tried to use really is free, it should be okay, but I know that sometimes some non-free images are uploaded to Commons, and that the non-free status remains unnoticed for a while. Would you mind taking a look at Commons:Image:Snow white 1937 trailer screenshot (6).jpg and telling me if the licence really is okay before I go back to fr: and query the removal? I understand that the really important thing is to get the unfree logo out of the box, but since I was the one who brought up the issue, I'd like, if possible, to keep everyone happy by leaving the userbox looking okay. Thanks. ElinorD (talk) 12:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

  • The image appears to be ok. There's a general habit to view screenshots from movies prior to 1964 as being public domain. So, this one is probably ok. I am uncertain if this is supported in law, but this is generally how we handle it. --Durin 12:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Okay, thanks. I'll go back to fr: and ask the administrator about it. It's possible he didn't see what the image was and thought that Ironie was putting the logo back, which, in fact, another user did later. Cheers. ElinorD (talk) 12:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)