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Useless to argue with Christian and Islamic fears, about what Vedas are

Christianity and ISlam both fear hinduism so much that they will keep troubling you till eternity if you say something good about hinduism. So much so that on one hand they will try to say that Vedas are not for hindus only and on the other they will try to deteriorate hindu philosophy. As both Christianity and Islam have hardly anything significant to offer, they hate hindu philosophy so much that they want to tell hindus they are not hindus or that they are aryans who came from some other place. Who cares? It is in India that they created the whole stuff and become hindus or Sanatatan dharmi or whatever. It is in India that they created their sanskrit language. Is it so difficult to understand for these religion-biased people? Most of the hindu related topics on wiki-pedia are infested with such trolls and idiots.

The above unsigned comment was added by 24.6.237.22 via this edit: Buddhipriya 04:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Vedic dating

There is a serious problem with the entire sections on Misplaced Pages on Hinduism or Indian History. Let me just focus on Hinduism for now.

The Vedas are arguably the oldest surviving scriptures that are still used. Most Indologists agree that an oral tradition existed long before some of them were written down only during the second century BCE. There has been religious scholarship on the Vedas for several thousand years, including commentaries contained in the Upanishads and later Sruti texts like the Brahmanas. Religious scholars like Shankaracharya (8th century AD) and Ramanujacharya (11th century AD) have even written commentaries (Bhashya) on these commentaries. All of these religious scholars rejected the need to date the Vedas as they were considered timeless.

However,for more than a hundred years, European colonial and Christian religious interests and related scholarship have attempted to ascribe a date for the Vedas, looking at them purely as Sanskrit literature viewed from a linguistic or Indo-European sense, and have created controversies based on speculative dates. These dates ignore millenia of religious scholarship on the Vedas and deprecate more recent archaeological, astronomical and population genetics evidence. Even the linguistic evidence is suspect because Sanskrit as a language was codified by the Grammarian Panini long after the advent of the Vedas. Further, the Vedas have been oral texts for a specific purpose; their precise meters and specified octave complexity are intended to deliver sound vibrations that convey meaning and context to persons in a meditative state, for assistance in realizing eternal truths. Considering that these are only religious texts, any attempt to date them outside of religious scholarship or the Indian cultural and historical context and related scholarship has no value, and therefore no date for the Vedas can be ascribed.

The above unsigned comment was added by User:Hulagu in this edit: Buddhipriya 01:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for expressing your point of view on these matters. You are quite right that there are many debates on the subject of dating. Please read Misplaced Pages:Verifiability which explains that content on Misplaced Pages must be based on citation to what would be considered WP:RS for purposes of the article. So a first step to resolving content disputes is often to agree upon what sources would be considered WP:RS. If there are any specific books that you would like to suggest be added to the mix, please give citation information for them here so other editors can comment on whether or not those sources seem like WP:RS or not. Removal of material that is already in the article and cited by WP:RS that have previously been considered acceptable can be construed as vandalism, so please don't remove such material in the future as you did in this deletion: Also note that edit wars are discouraged. Please take controversial material to the talk page. Buddhipriya 01:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I object to the removal of sourced material in the following edit which cut WP:RS and replaced them with a reference that appears to be WP:FRINGE material : . A sample of the scholarship by S. Kalyanaraman on "Indo-European Linguistics (IEL), a belief system; reclaiming history of bharatiya languages" is available here: . Examination of the references used there shows a heavy use of self-published web sites and even Misplaced Pages articles as sources, which does not inspire confidence. Even Misplaced Pages does not allow the use of Misplaced Pages articles as WP:RS. I ask other editors for their opinion on this material, and I call for the restoration of the sourced material that was cut. Buddhipriya 04:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Buddhipriya, I don't believe you examined the source properly, or you wouldn't make this statement. There are several dozen references from peer reviewed material and books, some of which are now noted on Hinduism notice board. The reference I put in was not as an original reference, since the Kalyanaraman piece was just a collection of these texts and references. I can send you the complete document by mail or if you will show me how to, attach it on Wiki for review. Also, sourced material from authors with proven bias on this subject like Michael Witzel and his like cannot be on Misplaced Pages.

I am sensing that I am wasting my time your like, since you seem pretty entrenched in your biased views and representation on these pages. I suspect these topics are going to require arbitration and appointment of neutral, unbiased administrators. Hulagu 01:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

S. Kalyanaraman promotes "Proto-vedic Continuity Theory", a theory the content of which has never been very clear. It has no acceptance at all by professional linguists as far as I am aware, but if you can find evidence that unbiassed linguists take this theory seriously, we should like to see it. Te fact that he footnotes some legitimate sources, does not make his theory legitimate. Anyone can add footnotes to whatever they want to say. Paul B 14:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Use of standard References section

I have changed the layout of the References to comply with Misplaced Pages:Guide_to_layout, which specifies that the Reference section is a list of works actually cited in Notes. I think it is important that we raise the bar in terms of reference quality and citation methods for this article, and getting the critical apparatus set up per layout guidelines is a housekeeping step. Once the References section exists, works that are repeated cited ("op. cit") can be mentioned in short form with authorname and page number, relying on the References detail. For further information on this see: WP:CITE. Buddhipriya 17:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It is good to see support for improving the reference system, but I do not like the Harvard referencing templates and would like to remove them. The templates are hard to use unless you are experienced with them, which makes maintenance of the article more difficult. In particular, the use of named reference to create separate reference tags for every page reference is very difficult to maintain. Buddhipriya 21:43, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that. Do as you please. JFD 21:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that we leave the Harvard tags that you have added in place, as they are fine, but that the named tags be removed. Generally it is good to use one system or another for citations, and once the article has standardized, it is good to discuss them on the talk page. But in this case we are trying to introduce more order where there was little before, and so any move toward a system is good to discuss with multiple editors. I feel strongly about the name tags, but it would be interesting to see if we can get more support for the Harvard method. Buddhipriya 21:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

We seem to be rushing so fast to restore each other's edits that we have a novel sort of edit conflict (one that I wish we should see more of) :) I think you should restore the Harvard templates that you added, as removal of the naming is the issue that I feel most strongly about. I suggest that you fall back to the last version you made, and then we can examine the naming tags as a separate pass. To prevent edit conflicts I will leave the article alone for a while so you can stabilize it as you think best. Buddhipriya 22:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

In the current version of the article, all sources listed under "References" use Template:Citation and the article itself is Harvard-referenced until the "Etymology" section. Have at it! JFD 22:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it will be interesting to just leave things as you have set them up for now pending input from other editors. I am trying to warm up to the templates, but I admit I am concerned about maintenance of them. Technically, I think that the actual Harvard referencing system would display the citations in the article text directly, as opposed to using footnotes. That practice seems unpopular, and I do not support it. My practice has been to put the same information as a Harvard reference into an unnamed footnote, which gets the result, but avoids the problem that if you have multiple citations to the same named footnote, if you later change one of them, others may have collateral damage. That becomes a nightmare if you have an article with multiple editors, most of whom will not have a clue what citation system is going on. I have posted a comment on the talk page for the Harvard referencing to see if there is some workaround for the named references issue (on other articles where they have been used, it becomes rather complicated to make changes accurately, a problem which is mentioned from time to time on the talk page. There is no rush, so I would suggest that we not expand their use pending more input. If I can't see how to get around the named references, then I would urge that aspect be eliminated. Buddhipriya 04:20, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I created two versions of the article: one with all Harvard referencing and one with no Harvard referencing. See which one you like better. JFD 13:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for this effort, which gives a very clear example of the difference. One minor comment about terminology is that "Harvard references" are defined as: "Under the Harvard referencing system, a book is cited in the text in parentheses, after the section, sentence, or paragraph for which the book was used as a source, using the surname of the author and the year of publication only, with the parentheses closing before the period, as in (Author 2005)." In other words, they are actually inline references rather than references which are implemented via raised superscripts. The ambiguity of the term seems to be that the templates to carry the information normally carries in a Harvard reference can also be used within a raised superscript (implemented in Misplaced Pages as a "ref" tag) which is what the demonstration does. The Harvard reference example you have done is very clear, and my concern is that since almost no editors on Misplaced Pages use this system, mainenance of them will be close to impossible. The other related issue is the use of named references, that is, a ref tag which has a name. The problem with maintenance of these is that since multiple citations in the article wind up being linked to one item, if any of them change, the potential exists to create errors in the others. Misplaced Pages there are few editors who take a holistic approach to articles, and therefore I have seen various problems with synchronization of named citations over time as multiple editors with limited insight into the overall articles and the referencing systems change things here and there with no concern for the linkages. For these reasons, I continue to prefer the use of non-named references. It appears that the example you have put together using the Harvard templates has no named references in it. Is that correct? If so, that part of the issue is off the table. It will be interesting to see if we can get other editors to express an opinion on this matter. Again, thank you so much for the effort you are putting in to improve the reference structure for the article. Buddhipriya 19:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

That's correct; the all-Harvard-referenced version contains no named ref tags. The all-Harvard version has the primary advantage of using the Harvard citation template (one click takes you to a full citation) and doesn't really require any more maintenance than unnamed ref tags without. It's not the end of the world if some references use Harvard citation templates and some don't; they won't interfere with each other. JFD 21:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to switch over to the all-Harvard version. If maintenance becomes difficult, I will switch back. JFD 22:26, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

BIASED PRESENTATION OF MATERIAL ON HINDUISM AND INDIA ON WIKIPEDIA

Discussion moved to the Hinduism notice board.Bakaman 23:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

5 Vedas not 4 Vedas

There are various discussions about the veda being 5 and not 4.... The vedas are not talking about these.. Should we consider added details about those... these are mentioned by Verses of Vemana. There are many discussions about this.. http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vov/vov11.htm

There is a mention about Pranav Veda.. any details ???

I found the narration about the 5 (five) Vedas in the following book

• Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona
• By Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
• Published 1928
• The Institute Original from the University of California

"Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute" This is the place in Pune where all the ancient copies of the Vedas are kept. The topic needs to be importantly mentioned. BalanceRestored 09:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Click to check the vedic verses and the clear citation of the 5 vedas http://books.google.com/books?id=oeMvAAAAIAAJ&q=%22five+vedas%22&dq=%22five+vedas%22&pgis=1 BalanceRestored 10:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

BalanceRestored, please consult the many highly regarded books published on the Vedas (see for example this list of references), and don't base your edits to this well-developed article based on two line snippets on google books.
For your information, "Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute" is a journal publication of Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, and any reference to it will require citation of the exact article title along with the authors. Also it is highly recommended incumbent that one read (and understand) any academic article completely and in its correct context before adding content from it. 19:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Your explanation is insufficient and vague, kindly quote with page numbers of the reference books you have read actually and with the exact narration. Also quote from where the narrations are taken. There are different versions about the numbers 5 or 4, and we will need to take the appropriate one only. Misplaced Pages is not a place for common belief I suppose. It is an encyclopedia. Also do you have any explanation about the material mentioned by Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute. Again it is very apparent from your explanation that you have not read your self the reference books. Also you have not signed the above explanation. BalanceRestored 05:37, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

See: Merriam Webster Dictionary

Now can you provide the title and authors for the Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute reference you cited ? Abecedare 05:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

What is that to do with the reference. Kindly explain. Is the book published or not? Also you just referred to me Merriam Webster Dictionary, what is that to do with what you just wrote above list of references.. BalanceRestored 05:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Please click on the above Merriam Webster link!

Here is another quote from Michael Witzel, "Vedas and Upaniṣads" in Gavin Flood, ed. (2003), The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism, Malden, MA: Blackwell, ISBN 1-4051-3251-5. Pages 68-101.

"The Four Vedas are the oldest extant texts of India and contain religious and ritual poetry ..."

Abecedare 06:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

what is mentioned by the author and from where is this author quoting the reference form . I have refered about the Arthashastra mentioning about the 5 vedas.? Where is this author quoting the text from? and when what I referred is cited why are you removing the same?BalanceRestored 06:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I has also asked to mention where the narrations, the author of the book you are mentioning are been taken from. There are difference of opinions with regards to 4 or 5 which was already stated by me. I already mentioned we will need to go with the correct citation. You did not bother to explain the same.BalanceRestored 06:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The name of the publisher is R.N. Dhandekar at Bhandarkar Institute press BalanceRestored 07:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Newer Citations

Finally an entire book that cites and talks about the 5th Veda. I am sure the presence of the 5th Veda cannot be just ignored.

"Seer of the Fifth Veda: Krsna Dvipayana Vyasa in the Mahabharat"

• By Bruce M. Sullivan
• Page 8, Page 88, Page 7
• ISBN 8120816765

The text says "The Mahabharata, in any case, does not say that each pupil learned one Veda from Vyasa, but that each pupil learned all five vedas"

The text says "The Arthashastra says that there are 5 vedas and the 5th Veda is ithihasa veda"

The text says "Vyasas repeated references to Vedic texts in his description of his own composition emphasize the epic's claim to be another Veda, the fifth Veda"

BalanceRestored 09:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Bhagvat Purana Pranav Veda

"Eka eva pura vedah pranavah sarva-vangmayah" In bhagwat purana it is clearly telling about the Pranava Veda. When Bhagwan (GOD) Talk to Uddhava. The text literally means One Pranva Veda is complete and all the other veda derived from the same.

a community Vishwabrahmins in India follow the Pranava Veda. BalanceRestored 09:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Various Books Refering the Pranav Veda

The Astrology Of Personality: A Reformulation Of Astrological Concepts And Ideals In Terms of Contemporary Psychology and Philosophy.

• By Dane Rudhyar
• Published 2004
• Kessinger Publishing
• Page 128
• ISBN 1417978465

Social Bibliography; Or, Physical Bibliography for Librarians

• By Shiyali Ramamrita Ranganathan
• Published 1952 University of Delhi
• Original from the University of Michigan

All of this material related to the "fifth veda" is so far off the beaten track in terms of all other WP:RS on the topic that I feel the claims need to rise to meet the standard of WP:FRINGE claims. There may be some grain of truth here, but the way this material is being presented is not consistent with other sources. I would like to get the discussion here to focus on which sources of the ones presented may be considered WP:RS. Certainly none of the astrology material by Dane Rudhyar would be included. If the other texts are hard to locate, verification of any of this will take effort.

It would be helpful if we can identify one or two key Sanskrit terms by which this supposed "fifth Veda" is called, as that will assist in index lookups in standard reference sources. Is there a name of a specific text which is claimed as a Sanskrit scripture? If we can identify the name of the scripture, we can look it up in the usual reference works on such scriptures. Is "Pranava Veda" the only term to look up? I am just beginning to search for references to this, and so far that term does not appear in the index either to Winternitz' History of Indian Literature or in The Vedic Age (Volume One of The History and Culture of the Indian People). I am unable to find hard citation data for any of the Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute citations which you have given, so the material is at this point not verifiable. Please refer to WP:Verifiability regarding the need to provide citations that can actually be reviewed and confirmed. Of the three tiny fragments of text that you have cited on Google books () I can identify a specific source scripture passage in one of them, a reference to an "otherwise obscure verse of the Saṃyutta Nikāya (I.29). According to Winternitz the Saṃyutta Nikāya ("Collection of Grouped Discourses") is a Buddhist scripture (volume 2, which covers Buddhist scriptures, pp. 54-60 and passim). Aside from the fact that it would be dubious to quote a Buddhist scripture as a source for Hindu canonical organization, perhaps the discussion is being influenced by a misunderstanding of the division of the Buddhist teachings in that work into five "vaggas" or "divisions" (Winternitz, volume 2, p. 56). I do not know if this is a factor in the issue.

This link to Google books may be worth looking over from the point of view of what claims are being made (). That book refers to the idea of the Mahabharata as the fifth Veda, which is perhaps more of an honorific title than anything else. The Mahabharata is explicitly not included in the Vedic corpus, of course. Buddhipriya 06:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Did you read the references right? Was the google book mentioned above included in the references? BalanceRestored 07:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a complete research on the presence of 5 Vedas

"Seer of the Fifth Veda: Krsna Dvipayana Vyasa in the Mahabharat"

• By Bruce M. Sullivan
• Page 8, Page 88, Page 7
• ISBN 8120816765

The text says "The Mahabharata, in any case, does not say that each pupil learned one Veda from Vyasa, but that each pupil learned all five vedas"

The text says "The Arthashastra says that there are 5 vedas and the 5th Veda is ithihasa veda"

The text says "Vyasas repeated references to Vedic texts in his description of his own composition emphasize the epic's claim to be another Veda, the fifth Veda"

Looks like you missed it. I re-edited the article using this book. Not the Google thing you mentioned. Kindly get the article back. Looks like you made an error unknowingly. BalanceRestored 06:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The material from that book that is available online makes it clear that he is talking about the Mahabharata as the "fifth Veda". That is an honorific idea. It is quite possible that he makes claims for some other scriptures as being a fifth Veda as well, or perhaps there is some metaphorical point involved. The entire body of academic study in this field organizes the Vedic corpus into the four main divisions. Please read WP:FRINGE. I ask for the second time, please give the Sanskrit name of a specific scripture that is being identified as the "fifth Veda". What is it, so I can look the work up? Either it is one of the works that is classified formally in some other way, such as the dance shastras (which I have heard called "the fifth veda" by dancers, or perhaps it is some mythical work. But what is the title of it? Buddhipriya 07:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Did you read all the pages, I have provided the narrations. BalanceRestored 07:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Also did you read this reference from Government of India. By Mysore (India : State), "Mysore State Gazetteer:", 1965, Printed by the Director of Print., Stationery and Publications at the Govt. Press, Page 220 . You seemed to have ignored even this..

A few other points to note:

• The "Seer of the Fifth Veda" is a 1984, PhD thesis of Bruce Sullivan, and while it is interesting to read, it is hardly accepted in the mainstream given the lack of citations to it in scholarly journals or academic reviews.
• The 1990 edition of the book is titled, "Krsna Dvaipayana Vyasa and the Mahabharata: A New Interpretation.", which demonstrates that even the author thinks of the idea of the "fifth veda" as a novel interpretation.
• You are quoting selectively from the book; for example page 8 the book not only says, "The Mahabharata, in any case, does not say that each pupil learned one Veda from Vyasa, but that each pupil learned all five vedas" but also talks about how the Puranas have a conflicting version.
• Another example of the author himself stating the weidely accepted version is found right at the beginning on page 2, where he writes, "He is traditionally credited with arrangement of the vedas into four texts, as well as the composition of the epic Mahabharata, many Puranas and other works", as well as, "He is credited not only with arranging the collection of the sruti ("Revelations") into the four text of the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Veda, but also the composition of much of the smritis ("Tradition")" (emphasis added; IAST not transcribed).

Also as mentioned by Buddhipriya, the the "fifth Veda" and "Pranava vedas" raise WP:FRINGE and WP:REDFLAG issues and we will need solid authoritative citations in support of such claims. Abecedare 07:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The text I wrote was as follows

There are number of citations in the Vedic texts that cite the possibility of there being a fifth Veda.

This time I did not write there are Five Vedas ... I did mention possibility..

The Vishwabrahmin community in India follow the Pranava Veda, according to them is the 5th Veda. I cited the text from Government of India (is that not solid???). Any reasons for ignoring that too?BalanceRestored 07:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Again there are big seers in India who say the Vedas are 5, they say thing because they did study them all their lives. There are surely non-conclusive assumptions about the same. I do agree. But what's the harm mentioning what is written? Hey not everything you hear is alway true. Truth is sometimes beyond it. These books I mentioned and there are lots of citations about it.. It is important for the details to be mentioned. Any reasons why we should ignore these citations?BalanceRestored 07:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The "Mysore State Gazetteer", 1965 being a gazetteer, would be an excellent (though outdated) reference for the geography of Mysore, and perhaps an acceptable reference for its demographics circa. 1965. However it is far from a reliable, authoritative source on the Vedas. And again you miscited the refernce which does not mention Vishwabrahmins on page 220, but only Panchals. Abecedare 07:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I must ask that BalanceRestored comply with WP:CIVIL and stop referring to the fact that we are disagreeing with the points being raised as "ignoring" the issues. We are disagreeing that the material says what you think it does, and we do not agree that the sources are WP:RS. You still have not answered my question regarding the actual Sanskrit titles of any works that may be involved, making it very difficult to do any sort of independent search for citations on the matter. Your behaviour is becoming disruptive. Buddhipriya 07:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Vishwabrahmins, Vishwakarmas, Panchals are the same. Their gotras are the same. You can check and research about the same. Now the topic of discussion is not about Vishwabrahmins or Panchals, the thing you both persistantly ignored the "Government of Indias" quotations.

You mention it Panchals

1. Manu (blacksmith),
2. Maya (carpenter),
3. Thwastha (metalcraftsman),
4. Silpi (stone-carver)
5. Vishvajnan (goldsmith)

Or Vishwabrahmins

1. Manu (blacksmith),
2. Maya (carpenter),
3. Thwastha (metalcraftsman),
4. Silpi (stone-carver)
5. Vishvajnan (goldsmith)

Or Vishwakarmas

1. Manu (blacksmith),
2. Maya (carpenter),
3. Thwastha (metalcraftsman),
4. Silpi (stone-carver)
5. Vishvajnan (goldsmith)

What ever you feel you are comfortable with you can mention it.. Panchals, Vishwabrahmins, or Vishwakarmas. BalanceRestored 08:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

You have a good reason not to quote about the 5 veda that is mentioned by Government of India?BalanceRestored 08:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I repeat: The "Mysore State Gazetteer", 1965 being a gazetteer, would be an excellent (though outdated) reference for the geography of Mysore, and perhaps an acceptable reference for its demographics circa. 1965. However it is far from a reliable, authoritative source on the Vedas."

Spamming this page with unrelated content (as above), is not helping your cause and is disruptive. Abecedare 08:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Never mind.. it is better to get experts resolve this problem. Do you mind helping me with that. Or you have a problem even with that.BalanceRestored 08:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:CIVIL. Abecedare 08:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

guys, try to be constructive. The Mahabharata is obviously irrelevant to the Vedas themselves. You are free to claim even today that there are six or seven or any number of Vedas without any impact on the actual Vedic literature. The Vedas themselves talk of triplicity, and in late Vedic times a "fourth Veda" appears. The Vedic period ended, but of course people in the Maurya or Gupta period could well get the idea that, hey, if a "fourth Veda" can be introduced, why not a fifth? This is certainly a respectable topic, to be treated under "reception of Vedic literature", or "importance of Vedic texts in Hinduism". Not relevant to the study of the Vedas themselves, but of great importance to the study of Hinduism and history of Indian thought. Try to just move such discussions to the relevant place instead of calling each other names. dab (𒁳) 09:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

(Pranav Veda) Pranav OR "OM" is itself a veda there are various texts about the begining of the creation etc, this Veda has been there among the Panchals / Vishwabrahmins what ever you call it who have 5 rishis those are clearly mentioned in the Yajur Veda itself. It is said that the 1st Veda Pranav Veda has been written around 10,000 years ago other are written much latter. If it is not mentioned here on the main page the other people who could be knowing more in details will not easily reach the page and write about the facts. But, strictly not mentioning about "OM" at it at all, is a big question. I know all these things because it is often discussed among the community members and when I try to find facts around the same, I do find them. Now it is up to you all to mention the same or not. See I myself am a lot Blind about the Vedic Scripts and am enjoying all these competitive claims about the facts from AB and BPriya because the more I am challenged the more I learn. It gives me more boost to get things and prove what I claimed is right. It makes me happier, finding the facts to be true. I've ordered for this book, hope it reaches me soon and I am able to make better claims. Again I understand this is something we've too never heard before. I too just heard about the same. My reaction was the same as all you are having.. 5 Vedas.. at first I said.. what the....... why are all these people talking all these.. !!!!... but after finding facts, they seem to be true, I needed to bring that here as I felt it was important and something we all could learn if it is really true.. Well I did mention about "5th Veda" and all it's citations, now it is up to you all to research about it. I will surely give up after making some more attempts. I don't want to suddenly bring out things which you people never heard... at least it is visible to me.. i see there's something in these books I did scan, you all don't see no problem ..... BalanceRestored 10:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Again the questions... was such a book there...is such a book there.. http://www.aumoneworld.com/books.html .. I do see one.. BalanceRestored 10:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

"Pranavan Vedam"

• by Dr. S. P. Sabharathnam
• A fascinating treatise on the creation of the universe and the ancient science of Pranava Veda or the cosmic life force. Written by a master in the Agamas.BalanceRestored 10:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: I've myself never read this myself. I did try google, amazon books ... it is not found there.BalanceRestored 10:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I've created the page Pranav Veda, I hope there will be more inputs about this treatise.BalanceRestored 10:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Texts are criticizing 2 important religions in India

I've removed the following below text.

Philosophies and sects that developed in the Indian subcontinent have taken differing positions on the Vedas. Schools of Indian philosophy which cite the Vedas as their scriptural authority are classified as "orthodox" (āstika). Two other Indian philosophies, Buddhism and Jainism, did not accept the authority of the Vedas and evolved into separate religions. In Indian philosophy these groups are referred to as "heterodox" or "non-Vedic" (nāstika) schools.

There are 66 more religions in the world who do not accept Vedas, but the text is specifically just mentioning the two. The text is crossing NPOV. Check list of religions, it is stating all List of religions other then Hinduism as Nastiks. BalanceRestored 11:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Crossing NPOV There are not just 2 but 66 more religions. This is a strict no-no at wikipedia.BalanceRestored 11:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

FYI.. "nāstika" this is a very cheaply looked up term in India. It is very similar to calling niggers etc. They should be removed from Wiki I suppose.BalanceRestored 11:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Not to get involved in one of these Mera Bharat Mahan disputes, but nāstika just means that Buddhists and Jains don't think that there is a God (... नास्ति, one might venture to say), which certainly no Buddhist or Jain would think is anything to be ashamed of. The reason to remove this stuff is probably that it's POV, but more that it's a sort of tired, Sarvepalli Radhakrishna (no offense to the great man), "there are six schools of Indian philosophy," POV than that it's pejorative. Rājagṛha 15:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

1. Flood 1996, p. 82 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFFlood1996 (help)

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