Misplaced Pages

User talk:Vintagekits

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Padraig (talk | contribs) at 13:20, 5 August 2007 (→Suggested conditions). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 13:20, 5 August 2007 by Padraig (talk | contribs) (→Suggested conditions)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Indef block

I have extended you block for an indefinate period due to threats of physical violence, gross personal and sectarian attacks and indicating you will engage in further meatpuppetry. I will ask for a review of this myself, therefore you do not need to. I will leave this page for you to plead your case, should you have a change of opinion, but be aware that if you continue to use this page as a platform for soapboxing or personal attacks, I will protect it. Rockpocket 01:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Due to continued abuse from Vintagekits, I've protected this page. This will have the effect of limiting Vintagekits's ability to make a case here. Rklawton 03:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Unprotected

At Vintagekits request, I have unprotected the talk page (the only page he can edit while blocked). Please do not come here to gloat or attempt to wind up VK any further. SirFozzie 18:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Fozzie.--Vintagekits 18:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Foz, I've been away chillin out. I'm gonna stay off for a month and then request that I am aloud back but not to edit on republican articles for a further six months. How does that sound?--Vintagekits 18:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I would support that request.
But only if the list of "republican articles" is published in your (SirFozzie's) talk space first, publicised in appropriate article discussion areas (ie most of the embargoed articles) and then a period of 7 days allowed for the community to add to the "six month embargoed" list.
I would also suggest, as a preventative measure, an escalating series of edit blocks beginning at 1 hour and only rising in 1 hour increments to try and correct breaches of policy (obviously including edit warring and personal attacks). VK's editing skills have improved with leaps and bounds and it would be a notable educational achievement to welcome him back as a conscientious editor.
The penultimate, and obviously controversial, proposal I would make is a ban on "Admin shopping" by VK. You, SirFozzie have a certain amount of respect in the community which is not shared by infallible admins like Tyrenious and Alison
The final, and obvious, proposal I would make is a 3 month ban on my editing any article I have not edited previously and before his return that he has edited after his return so as not to run the risk of antagonising him...Gaimhreadhan talk • 19:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
VK, I think that sounds reasonable, and I'd support that. Foz is away ill at the moment, but I'll see that he gets the message - "Infallible" Alison ☺ 19:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Alison, please would you clarify whether it is an unconditional return that you support or one with the conditions I have described?...Gaimhreadhan talk • 19:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Some of the conditions I see as reasonable, some I do not. Overall, a conditional return would be okay. - Alison ☺ 20:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be helpful if you would clarify exactly which of my proposed conditions are unacceptable. Sorry to press you, Alison, but I think it might be helpful to Vintagekits if he knew exactly what behaviour was expected...Gaimhreadhan talk • 20:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
That's neither mine nor your decision to make. All I can do is state that I'm okay with a conditional unblock. Appropriate behavior for all of us is already well established by WP:NPOV, WP:CIVIL, WP:AGF, etc, etc. As I'm not directly involved in VK's issues, I'll defer to SirFozzie on what the best approach is. - Alison ☺ 20:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I understand the blocking admin is usually involved in such decisions? I've notified him. Bastun 22:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I would agree with Alison, we have policies and I would not support policies being made ad hoc, by anyone.--Domer48 22:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd support resetting the block to something like 2 weeks (in all). VK did ban me from this page so I hope he wont object to me commenting here but he is unquestionably a useful editor and if people have issues with his behaviour we have disputre resolution processes and an arbcom; I am not comfortable with this user being indefinitely blocked without coming up in front of the arbcom first, and that is definitely following our policies and guidelines, SqueakBox 22:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Actually, it is not unusual for a user to be indef blocked without coming in front of Arbcom. Vk is not banned, his block should only stand as long as his contributions are likely to be disruptive to the smooth and proper functioning of the project, as they clearly were when I issued the block. I indicated I would let others decide on whether Vk's block should remain. I stand by that and will not object to his unblocking should any admin choose to do so for whatever reason. For what its worth, my personal opinion is that Vk's problems on Misplaced Pages stem from his editing of articles and talk pages related to Irish Republicanism. Should he steer clear of these either by choice or by an enforced ban, I don't see any good reason to enforce a block. Should he continue to edit these article, though, then I think he will continue to be a disruptive influence and see little point unblocking at this time. I should also note, though, that any repeat of the behaviour the led to the current block would, from me at least, lead to it being immediately re-instated. Rockpocket 02:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Would that be a slective block then, i.e. not editing Republican articles? Is that an existing policy option, as I have already indicated I'm opposed to any ad hoc policys? --Domer48 08:33, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
It wouldn't be a block. It would be a ban on certain articles. There is plenty of precedent for this, usually through ArbCom, which is a last resort, and if things can be settled before that stage, then it is best to do so. The ideal is an agreement between the editor whose conduct is at question and other relevant editors/admins to resolve any problem. Tyrenius 10:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd have no problem with Vk coming back, under the terms he has proposed himself above. Note, though, that Vk's "problem areas" are not necessarily limited to the "Irish Republican" sphere of influence but could be extended to include "anti-British". See here for a past example. Bastun 08:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I note yer concerns, hence the reason that I have offered to not edit republican articles (and to be more specific so there there can be no debate about it that includes all articles with WP:IR which I think covers all republican and republican linked articles) and then after I have earned the trust of Fozzie again I will request the "full membership" is reinstated.--Vintagekits 10:36, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Agree with lift. I thought that some editors were talking about a fresh start. I don't believe that making threats against Vk at this stage is making a fresh start. However I hope something is done about the continuous trolling on the relevant pages, this is the real problem, and these are the editors that sneak in and out and rarely ever get blocked. GH 10:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Huh? Noone is making threats, against Vk or anyone else for that matter. Bastun 12:52, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I expect GH is referring to my indication that I will re-block Vk again if the same circumstances arise. I think it is Vk's interests to be straight with him about that and I don't think it is particularly controversial considering the circumstances that led to the block. If that is considered a threat, then so be it (though the fact blocks are not punitive, rather discounts that in my eyes). Rockpocket 19:40, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I think Vintagekits offer to refrain from editing these articles is a fair offer and he should be allowed to show good faith by having his block lifted.--padraig 10:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
...and I don't. Just as you have your opinion I have mine. --Counter-revolutionary 10:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes you give your opinion and I give mine, so why the need for your comment above.--padraig 11:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

An indefinite block remains in place until such time as an admin is prepared to lift it. Alison and Rockpocket have already stated they consider it can be lifted on a conditional basis. Tyrenius 11:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Take it the arbcom and let them sort it out as a neutral party. Badgerpatrol 11:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I think VK offer is reasonable and clear. That it is self imposed, I would have no problem. --Domer48 13:30, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggested conditions

How about this (I'd ideally want admins to comment, but any constructive criticism would be fair).

The unblock would be lifted under the following conditions

1) VK observe a MININUM 6 month topic-ban on all republican and republican-linked articles. Once six months are up, we can look at VK's editing , and response to provocations and the like, and look at lifting this topic-ban. 2) VK agree (as he did before) to a 1 RR on all topics. 3) Depending on how my illness goes, I may or may not be able to fully mentor VK.. hopefully in a few weeks when I can get back to editing fully, I can resume my duties. Right now, my WP editing is limited to 1/2 times a day. If I can't I will try to get another, neutral admin to help mentor VK.

Fair enough? SirFozzie 13:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

aye.--Vintagekits 13:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll endorse that. Furthermore, I'll agree to mentor if VK and others are okay with that. I don't edit such articles myself as a rule - Alison ☺ 18:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't object to that, though in the interests of clarifying exactly what that self-imposed topic ban would entail, would Vk exclude himself from contributing to associated talkpages and XfDs also? Rockpocket 19:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Slight problem with that; Vk's PoV-pushing has not always been restricted to Republican articles in the past. Maybe if we made it boxing-only? --John 19:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Seems a tad too restrictive to me. VK could get indef' for fixing a typo in, say cheese, because it's not boxing-related. Opt-out, not opt-in - Alison ☺ 20:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Why not just say "dont get involved in political articles", ie any politically charged articles, that way places in Ireland say are great but eg Flags is not a good idea. A more liberal approach would be to jsut say dont get involved in disputes over political articles as adding to the Republicanism articles in a non-controversial way could help expand the encyclopedia without anybody minding. Its the conflicts that need avoiding, SqueakBox 20:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
The conflicts appear to arise whenever he takes part in anything to do with Ireland or Britain. One previous attempt at mentoring having failed I'd say the onus is now on Vk to be flexible, rather than the community. --John 20:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I wouldnt agree to that. The restriction of staying off articles in within WP:IR is explicit definition and sets a defined list or category of articles and leaves no debate as to what I should or shouldnt be editing. Also I would say that blocking from associated talkpages would be counterproductive. The reason I myself have offered this solution is to show that I can be trusted - I know I am on my last chance and I will need to show a level of maturity and by editing the talk pages this will benefit me in a few ways 1. it will show that I am able to approach subjects in a logical and retional manner, 2. it will show that I am able to not rise when baited (which I am sure a number of editors will attempt to do) and most importantly 3. it will get my used to solely solving issues on talk pages instead of getting involved edit wars - to that end I would also agree Fozzies suggestion of 1RR. Finally, I would disagree that Fozzies mentoring didnt work. I think must editors would agree that my contributions to wiki had improved significantly - fair eough I let him down with one drunken late night spate of editing but I wouldnt say that that was the failing of Fozzies mentorship.--Vintagekits 10:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Well I made 2 suggestions so perhaps the no political articles would be best, SqueakBox 20:28, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think its fair to block an editor from commenting on an articles talk page, even if he has agreed to not personaly edit the article itself, that would stop him from pointing out errors on those article that other can correct, or engaging in discussions on content within that article.--padraig 13:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Irish republicanism and anti-Britishness go hand in hand. SirFozzie your conditions set above contain a massive loophole. VintageKits has come into conflict on articles that aren't just WP:IR or political. Its also articles to do with Britain and Britishness that conflict with Irish republican ideals. So i'd suggest a ban on him editing WP:IR and ANY article (politically and non-politically) that deals with Ireland and Britishness and Britains role in foreign territories. Mabuska 13:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment, on 26th July user Rockpocket wrote the following "Vitagekits. I have blocked you for 31 hours for persistant low level incivility", so why the extreme conditions? GH 20:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Because immediately after the 31 hour block for low level incivility, further things were said. See the top of the page. See the page history. But I believe you're aware of this anyway, as you commented on the block on AN/I at the time. Bastun 22:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
What "extreme conditions" are you referring to? Rockpocket 00:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Rockpocket, my fault. That question is addressed to SirFozzie. GH 01:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Jamie Moore

Hi there, long time no speak!. I have made a slight alteration to the Jamie Moore boxer page and added a couple of references. Hope they sit well with you. Regards GRB1972

By adding one reference you have taken out another. I'd fix it if I could.--Vintagekits 14:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)