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Talk:Jesus/archivebox

Recent Archive log

Complete archive key

• /Archive 73 - Doctors (Finding in the Temple); Inconsistency?; Lostceasar's Issues
• /Archive 74 - Era notation vote; We have an article called "Evidence of evolution" but...; Denomination; Jesus' Family; central figure to founder; With respect to the section on Gnosticism
• /Archive 75 - I could find no other encyclopedias which denied the existence of Jesus; Forensic reconstruction?; Missing the logic; POV, "Little external documentation" about Jesus according to whom? Also, little is too vague/subjective; Wasn't Jesus Black?
• /Archive 76 - Man claims to be 2nd Coming of Jesus, Christian view, 6th century portrait, Jesus in Japan?, lack of modern historians views, trilemma, New Section Proposal: Conspiracy Theories About Jesus, African?
• /Archive 77 - Revision of Christian Views, The Great Mystery link, Inline citations, NPOV proportionality, fact of Jesus, Jesus' family, Jesus was Albanian, Scholarship, Kabbalah vs. logia of Jesus.
• /Archive 78 - Cultural effects, The Jesus Extraterrestrial Connection, Supernatural/psychic categories, intro and historicity/myth, "...was handed over by Pilate the Roman governor to be crucified," Sanders on Jesus as a Pharisee
• /Archive 79 - Nietzsche, Family genealogy, Myth, BCE/BC, Islam, Magi, Arrest, Judaism's view
• /Archive 80 - William Lane Craig debate, Non-Christian views of Jesus, scholars and the death and Resurrection of Jesus, islamic view of jesus, Jesus' title and race, error in the article, parables, The Jesus Family Tomb and James Cameron, judgement, cousin, myth, Unnecessarily implied atonement theology in intro
• /Archive 81 - Founders of religions category tag, Jesus's Character, Recent significant changes, Judaism View, Minor Edits Reverted, Featured Article Status, Possible Bias?, Atheist views section, Report for violating 3RR, Atheist views - take 2, LIBERAL BIAS, Vandalism! Help! Someone!
• /Archive 82- Muslim view on Crucifixion, Notes section may need clean up, A Torrent, judgment, slavery, POV tag?, Featured article nomination.... maybe, Sources on Jesus' life, Standardizing references, Historicity or Revisionism?
• /Archive 83

Subpage Activity Log

• Discussion on Judaism's views moved to Talk:Jewish views of Jesus/Judaism's views of Jesus.
• Buried vs. entombed," alledged "lack of sources" archived to Talk:Jesus/Christian views in intro.
• New subpage created, /Historical Jesus, with several models of the historical Jesus and a list of sources.
• Baptism, blasphemy and sedition discussions moved to /2nd Paragraph Debate.
• Sudden move of Christ: discussion moved to Talk:Christ.
• Disputed tag and "Christian Mythology": moved to for relevancy reasons
• User:Andrew c/Jesus: sorting data b/w New Testament view on Jesus' life, Christian views of Jesus#Life, and Jesus#Life and teachings based on the Gospels.

For FAC status

The way I see it, the only obvious thing left to fix in this article is reference the new last sentence of the second paragraph, since there are only references to Jesus-myth types, but not to inerrantist or near-interrantist scholars, or to a reference which would just plainly indicate that neither side has many people. After that, would anyone be opposed to another FA nom, I think the last time was a bit problematic because there were a bunch of references things to fix and some weird thing about expanding mention of the Apocrypha and the Jewish Messiah which I think probably wern't appropriate, but the nom was so spur of the moment, I don't think anyone who would of known how to was ready to really respond to those criticisms :/. Homestarmy 01:32, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

If no good reference if found, we could discuss improving the previous sentence that was used - such as Very few scholars question the historical existence of Jesus, or argue for a completely mythological Jesus. 02:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

It occurs to me now that, technically speaking, neither the references there now nor references for the more literalist perspective would necessarily support the premise of the sentence, namely that neither side has many people on it. Is the sentence as it stands now really a very controversial assertion anyway? If not, it shouldn't need any references at all, since supposedly, inline citations in a lead should only be used for particularily controversial sentences. Homestarmy 01:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the sentence should read "Very few scholars believe that all ancient texts concerning Jesus are either completely accurate or completely inaccurate concerning Jesus' life, and almost none doubt his actual existence."

My main reason for this is because I've often encountered amongst teenagers and uninformed young adults the view that Jesus is some sort of myth that was completely made up. I think this addition would help dispel a commonly held fallacious belief. Jstanierm 20:50, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I will add it. I don't feel strongly about it, and I haven't read any previous arguments. I think it sums up the main issue. If for some reason another editor feels its unnecessary then by all means remove it.Jstanierm 20:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I still dislike these sentences, because they are essentially empty of meaning. What does "Jesus existed" mean in this context?

1. There was a person named Yeshua in Israel?
2. There was a Yeshua son of Yosef in Israel?
3. There was a Jewish teacher crucified by the Romans?
4. There was a Jewish teacher called Yeshua crucified by the Romans?
5. There was a Jewish teacher, son of Yosef and Miriam, preaching the Sermon on the Mount and later crucified by the Romans?
6. There was a Jewish teacher, son of Yosef and a virgin Miriam, preaching the Sermon on the Mount, later crucified by the Romans, who rose from the dead?

The first is more or less certain, the last will only be believed by devout Christians. But where does "Jesus existed" start? --Stephan Schulz 22:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The sentence still has the problem with the references not actually citing the entire thing anymore. Homestarmy 22:39, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Another thing that was bugging me was that it doesn't really seem to flow with the sentences above it. In context, how does "However, scholars do not agree about how much information on Jesus from ancient texts is accurate, and very few believe those texts to be either compleatly accurate or compleatly innacurate" sound? I really think it builds more on the idea that the first two sentences are talking about scholar's mainstream opinions on what basic information is mostly agreed upon about Jesus. Homestarmy 22:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Those are valid concerns, and your suggestion would be fine (after spell check though ;)-Andrew c  01:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I recommend enhancing this by including footnote and also provide relevant Wiki-links, thus:

"However, scholars do not agree about how much information on Jesus from ancient texts is accurate, and very few believe those texts to be either completely accurate or completely inaccurate." I also have an additional reference. LotR 13:07, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this issue is closely tied to the section "questions of reliability" I find that section is very POV and uses weasel words, such as "various people say..." or "according to several etc.." I would like to rewrite it but I'm at work and I'll get to it later if none of you do.

I think this article in an effort to remain NPOV has become a little confusing for a reader who would be unfamiliar with Jesus. I think it's important to dispell assumptions that a. Jesus never existed and b. If Jesus existed we know nothing about that existence because its been so distorted by mythology like Santa Claus, Robin Hood, or King Arthur.

Amongst scholars, aside from a very small and radical minority there is consensus that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi who lived in Palestine around the turn of the first century based on purportedly (and there's little reason to doubt their assertations) first hand records written within that same century. To an ancient scholar this is excellent source material. More than any biographical record we have of Alexander the Great all of whose contemporary biographies have been lost. Of course, people can debate the truthfulness of the documents (was there really a ressurection? were there really miracles?), but it would be nonsensical and unprecedented to assume the authors completely made him up. Jstanierm 16:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

At the very least, could we implement LotR's version in the meantime? I think it would be very strange if the sentence that's live now was not called out in any future FAC's.... Homestarmy 02:30, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

So Jstanierm, would you be fine with someone replacing your sentence with LotR's version? Homestarmy 23:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally I don't think this should go for another candidacy until the BC/BCE tags are sorted out - it just looks silly. It's quite clear BC/AD should be used. The Muhammad article uses BCE, so why shouldn't this use BC? Please, none of the "oh but really all articles should use BCE" nonsense. If it's fair to exclusively use BCE for non-Christian religious figures, I think it's perfectly acceptable to exclusively use BC for Christian ones. Otherwise there's one rule for Christian religious articles and another one for non-Christians religious articles. John Smith's 15:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

No, we should leave this "can of worms". It's annoying visually, but does not affect the details/meaning/information value at all. 02:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Then what you're saying is that articles could have colour/color all over the place and get FA status. I disagree. It is annoying visually, and it can be easily changed to BC/AD. If certain users fight over this, go to mediation or arbitration. There are various ways to resolve this matter - it's a cop-out to refuse to deal with it. John Smith's 11:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Right, I've changed it. According to WP:MOS, Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor. The first contribution here was fairly major and used BC/AD. WP:MOS urges consistency inside an article - dual usage because some people have got angry in the past is not a reason to refuse consistency, especially where it is more appropriate to use a style like this here (in a primarily Christian article). You don't see people getting their way to have dual usage on the religious pages of non-Christian figures.

If you really want the page to get FA status, you need to make bold attempts like this to make the page better. If you want to keep the previous poor style because some people will fight it, then it doesn't deserve FA status. John Smith's 11:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I reverted you. It was a long process that we have done at least twice in the past (see the archives) that reached us to this compromise. Please respect the consensus. If you believe a couple of letters after a date is so important, you are welcome to try and reach a new consensus, but please don't edit without consensus on a topic that has been so controversial in the past. Discuss first, and only then if a new consensus is reached, make the appropriate changes. I hope you understand why I reverted. Thanks.-Andrew c  13:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand why you reverted, but I don't accept it. Misplaced Pages rules are quite clear. People can't hold an article to ransom because they're not happy - that essentially seems to have been what the BCE/CE brigade did in the past. They have to respect the rules, and the rules say that "when in doubt" you go to the earliest major contribution. That's what I've done, also citing the fact an important Christian article is better with the BC/AD terms.

Don't revert me - let's see how long it takes until someone else objects. John Smith's 14:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I'm only doing this to try to help the article get FA status - objections would be raised because of the dual terms. Certainly I couldn't support it until the matter was resolved. John Smith's 14:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Umm, regarding FA status. We were up for nomination back in April, see Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Jesus/archive2. Only a single (anonymous, mind you) editor mentioned the era notations. So, I did not get the impression that the reason we failed FAC is because of the era notation, therefore I think our efforts are better spent elsewhere. As for "Let's see how long it takes"... well the answer was 4 minutes. Really, please look at the archives to see the huge votes that took place in the past. We cannot ignore the community consensus when so many people voiced their opinions in the past. I'm going to respond to your "Misplaced Pages rules are quite clear" here with WP:IAR. If the community supports this notation, and it keeps the peace, then that is more important than the era notation guidelines.-Andrew c  14:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, fine - let's have another discussion on it.

Virgin Birth

I think the article would be better if "immaculate conception" replaced "virgin birth" throughout... What do other editors think? Petepetepetepete 11:36, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Immaculate Conception does not relate to Jesus it refers to his mother - click on the link. "Virgin Birth" for Jesus is correct. -- SECisek 11:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

With respect, that's not a great answer. Jesus was the immaculate conception. Just as Mary was the virgin who gave birth. Neither refers exclusively to Mary or to Jesus. Petepetepetepete 11:59, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Uh, in theology, Immaculate Conception refers to MARY being concieved with out sin. It has nothing to do with Jesus. Jesus' was a Virgin Birth, again maybe you didn't click on the links. Give them both a read. -- SECisek 12:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is the confusion:

Immaculate Conception#Common misinterpretations

--SECisek 12:22, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Okeydoke... at least I learnt something, keep up the good work Petepetepetepete 12:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The term "Immaculate conception" is fairly unique to Roman Catholic theology, and as previously pointed out, is subject to various misinterpretations. I have never heard nor seen it used in Protestantism. I, too, agree that "Virgin Birth" is theologically correct. It also is consistent with the Apostles' Creed and other historic creeds of Christianity. Afaprof01 05:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Some Anglicans use the term and have faith in the doctrine, but some Anglicans don't self-identify as Protestant. Virgin birth IS what you want here. -- SECisek 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Joseph's status as Jesus' "father"

Per User Andrew C's request, my opinion is that we do a disservice to both truth and readership by sticking to the term "father." It is misleading in that it does not take into account the position of most Christians re: the Virgin Birth. I liked the most recent re-word by User RossNixon: "Joseph, husband of 'Mary" And I agree with this user that it allows for multiple beliefs (assumed father, actual father, adoptive father, etc.)

The Wiki article entitled Saint Joseph takes a lot of words, but perhaps we can "borrow" the idea expressed therein:

"...according to Christian Gospel accounts and tradition, the husband of Mary and the legal father of Jesus of Nazareth, although Christian faith tradition holds that Joseph did not physically beget Jesus, but that Mary had conceived him through divine means (see Virgin Birth)."

My personal opinion about the Jesus article is that it has become so "politically correct"--trying to be all things to all people--that it has become quite sterile, far beyond encyclopedic. Irrespective of all the different connotations about Jesus, he is the Founder of Christianity, and I don't think this article needs to apologize for that. Thanks! Afaprof01 05:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

What was wrong with:

User RossNixon: "Joseph, husband of 'Mary"

Seems to be all things while remaining NPOV. -- SECisek 06:18, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm just saying that this came up twice in the past, and it has come up before and we reached an agreement then. If editors want to change things, talk it out and if there is a consensus we can change it. I just want to stress the importance of process and discussion and consensus in such top tier article (especially when we have recently discussed this matter already). My concern is twofold with the text from the Joseph article. First it uses the term "legal" which isn't supported by the source material, and it introduces a Christian POV. Keep in mind that this is the Gospel summary section, and that we have a Christian interpretation section as well. I think the best thing is to follow the source material. Here is a proposal of mine for you to consider: The gospels mention Joseph in a few placed. They describe Joseph as "pledged to be married" to Mary (Matthew 1:17, Luke 1:27) and "husband of Mary" (Matthew 1:16, 1:18). They also describe Jesus as Joseph's son (Luke 4:22, John 1:45, 6:42), Joseph as Jesus' father (Luke 2:33, 2:48, John 6:42), and Jesus as "the son, so it was thought, of Joseph" (Luke 3:23). This way, we are simply following our sources. We are stating what the gospels say, which is the point of the section Life and teachings, as told in the Gospels. We can put other interpretations in other sections (or spinout articles).-Andrew c  13:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Martijn222's comment

My personal, proffessional opinion is that Jesus is defiantly a homeosexual, gay, he is one of those who wants to be unique. He is jealous and does not want anybody to be the same, hense the reason for against gays. Jesus was a selfish man with no heart. These are the beliefs i share with many of my colleagues in the "Jesus For Real" foundation where we use thousands of dollars to explore the theories. Go to www.jesusforreal.facts/stories.proof/for.real.com.uk for the indepth view on Jesus and his "stories" (all of which are fake). Those who disagree with me can keep there opinion to themselves because Jesus himself belives in freedom of speech. Time to say '''NO''' to Jesus and spread the word!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Martijn222 (talk • contribs) 07:22, 3 August 2007.

Misplaced Pages is not the place to publish original research, and talk pages are not here to generally discuss the topic, but instead to discuss improving the article. -Andrew c  13:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Converts from Judaism?

There is dispute over whether Jesus thought of himself of not being Jewish. Is this category appropriate? I think not simply because it wouldn't be neutral to take sides in the debate. The article doesn't mention Jesus' conversion anywhere either, so the category isn't congruent with the article content.-Andrew c  13:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Jesus (assuming there is a single historical person behind the myth) almost certainly thought of himself as Jewish. Christianity as a separate religion is a later invention. Hence, Jesus could not have "converted" to Christianity, of course. And from a Christian perspective, he's one with the omniscient Father, so cannot have a belief at all - he just knows ;-) --15:54, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment

This is a dispute about whether the dating terms BC/AD should be used exclusively, or the dual use of BC/AD and BCE/CE should be used together. 14:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute

• Some editors have claimed there is a consensus on this issue, but having reviewed the talk pages it appears it was still heavily contested, merely that no one really wanted to push the issue further. In any case, I feel that the current "compromise" was a poor one brought on by obstinant behaviour from some editors that violated Misplaced Pages guidelines, specifically WP:MOS.

For many years the BC/AD terms were used without problem from the start. WP:MOS says that a style established for so long shouldn't be changed without good reason. There is and was no good reason not to use BC/AD exclusively. So those who wanted to insist on BCE/CE were breaking Misplaced Pages guidelines.

If there are still any doubts, I refer you to the opening paragraph of WP:MOS.

Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor.

BC/AD was the style used by the first major contributor, so I believe it should be restored to that. It also makes much more sense given the primarily Christian nature of this article. John Smith's 14:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Comments

This is a non-issue. We have had a stable consensus for years to use both on this page. It was a consensus that was reached by many wikipedia editors who had put a good deal of work into the article. Why change? Instead of trying to stir up trouble oaver this, why don't you do something positive, like, read the latest books by historians or theologians about Jesus, or see if there are any new articles in the major peer-reviewed journals, and actually add valuable content? Misplaced Pages shouldn't be about going around pushing an agenda, it should be about dedicated research to improve article content. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, maybe you could direct me to where this "consensus" was reached. I've only found archive pages where the matter has been disputed, not approved. It would help if I read that discussion.

Second, there was a stable consensus for a lot longer before-hand. Why was it necessary to change that?

Third, please don't accuse me of trying to stir up trouble or accuse people of pushing an agenda - that is not assuming good faith. If I see an issue that should be resolved, I have a right to raise it. If you don't want to discuss it you don't have to take part in the discussion.

Fourth, other users have raised this issue before so it's clear the "consensus" is no longer a consensus, just a majority view of usual editors to this article. John Smith's 14:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Great comment Slr. I want to say, John Smith's, that it is wrong to phrase the debate in terms of "BC/AD vs. BC/BCE and AD/CE". This really is a Common Era vs. Anno Domini discussion. You are presenting a false dichotomy in your opening statements. I'd also like to note that There is and was no good reason not to use BC/AD exclusively is a disputed statement and is belittling the opposition. Whether their arguments are compelling enough to change is another matter, but I do not believe it is inappropriate to say that there has been "no good reason" presented in the past. I'd prefer that this RfC be withdrawn. The dating issue didn't seriously come up in our last FAC, and this discussion is likely going to stop all other progress on this article for at least the next week.-Andrew c  15:04, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, why is it false? The discussion is about whether to use BC/AD exclusively or the current dual approach.

I once again ask to see where the consensus was raised. Come on, help me out here and link to the discussion you're talking about. John Smith's 15:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I just realized that the link to Talk:Jesus/Archive details had been removed. Please see archives 14-17, 72, and any other archive that mentions BC/BCE.-Andrew c  15:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

And the "false" aspect is that you are giving people two options "Use Anno Domini" or "Use both" when there is a third option, "Use common era".-Andrew c  15:36, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Andrew, but can you please find me the part where it shows consensus. I'm not accusing you of lying, I'm just only finding topics where disputes took place. John Smith's 15:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep both. There is little chance that a better consensus will be achieved, and as such this essentially a waste of time. The current system is a bit jarring, but clear and unambiguous. FAC will have to live with it. And this is not a "Christian", but an encyclopedic article, dealing with history, sources, and various religious views about Jesus. --Stephan Schulz 15:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So why is it the only article on a major religious figure (that I know of) that uses both terms instead of one? John Smith's 15:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

All the other ones I checked use CE/BCE exclusively. Apparently some editors objected strongly to that, for reasons I strongly suspect, but have difficulty to comprehend. Using just AD/BC is unacceptable for many people, as both the AD (Year of the Lord) and the BC (Before Christ, i.e. implying Jesus is the Messiah) make implicit statements that conflict with many peoples religious (or anti-religious) beliefs. --Stephan Schulz 15:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So in that case it is fine to use one term exclusively. The question then becomes which.

If you say using just BC/AD is unacceptable to many people, I could retort by saying many people see the use of both that and BCE/CE as unacceptable on a page like this. Indeed they may see the use of BCE/CE at all as being offensive. So that argument doesn't quite wash out. More importantly, and this is the key issue, WP:MOS says that either BC/AD or BCE/CE is acceptable for use. If some people can't cope with BC/AD, they are free to not use wikipedia - the same applies to anyone who can't stand BCE/CE. I see some people have mentioned NPOV before. Again, wikipedia guidelines rather show that NPOV isn't relevant to the issue of what term to use. John Smith's 15:45, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the examples show that it is ok to just use CE/BCE. As for people being offended by it: Tough luck. These are neutral terms. They make no religious claims at all. So what people are offended about is that they don't get to impose their religion onto others. I have no sympathy. There is no requirement I am aware of in any religion to list dates in a religious format. There are, however, many religions that forbid acknowledgement of other gods. Indeed, a fairly strong argument can be made that "AD 1500" violates the third commandmend (by standard protestant count), and, as far as I know, some Christian groups even agree with that argument. --Stephan Schulz 06:55, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

One could say "tough luck" to those that don't like BC/AD. If just CE/BCE is acceptable than so is just BC/AD. WP:MOS says that either term can be used. So your argument of "neutrality" is clearly invalid. If you want to argue for a re-write of WP:MOS, be my guest. Until you get that agreement, though, you have to respect those guidelines. John Smith's 07:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how you can reject the neutrality argument. CE/BCE makes no religious claim, either for or against any particular religion. BC/AD makes several such points. The situation is not symmetric. And apparently right now, neither WP:MOS nor WP:DATE prescribe how to select a dating system - the "earliest major contributor" seems to have been dropped. Anyways, as always, common sense and WP:IAR apply. Common sense and experience tell us that this is a useless discussion that will generate a lot of hot air, and that the admittedly ugly compromise has worked fine for years. --Stephan Schulz 07:47, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that WP:IAR applies here. Common sense in my mind says that there is no real problem with using BC/AD exclusively. If everyone here had merely cited a fear of revert wars, I might understand. However it appears that some people are against it being used at all and are actually using the "fear" as an excuse.

the "earliest major contributor" seems to have been dropped - no it hasn't. Check the third and last paragraph of MOS' introduction. John Smith's 23:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I see. I was looking for something specifically about dates. Just to make sure, you are referring to that line directly beneath If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason?

And yes, indeed, there are people here that prefer CE/BCE, and some that prefer AD/BC. There has been, however, no-one but you that wants to actually change the compromise solution. Looks like we have consensus (again) for that one. --Stephan Schulz 00:31, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

You need to read the wikipedia definition of consensus. That is that everyone will live with the "consensus". I'm not going to start reverting again, but I'm not going to drop the issue now either. Also Storm Rider said he/she was in favour of BC/AD if the matter were continued. John Smith's 01:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep both. This harms no-one and is a workable consensus. Any attempt to impose one or other notation will lead to revert wars amd accusations. Paul B 15:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So what if various numbers of editors decided the current version isn't good and kicked off revert wars and accusations? What would you do then?

The simple answer is to do what I'm doing, using dispute resolution. You guys could have so easily taken this matter through the various steps and got a final answer if the disputes didn't end. But you're still on square one. A consensus is only useful when everyone agrees to it. As I've said more than once, users have been disputing the "consensus" you mention for years. So it's no longer a consensus, just a majority of views amongst people who watch this page. John Smith's 15:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

You wanted opinions. I gave mine. Now you complain that "you guys" have not "taken this matter through various steps" to a "final answer". There is no final answer, and the best method of resolution is on the Talk page, not through instant appeals all the way to the Supreme Court. Paul B 16:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't complaining at all. I merely pointed out that if in the past there was such trouble as people fighting over the terms, matters could have been advanced to something more formal. We are using the talk page now, but in the past that was done a lot and could have been moved to a different dispute resolution method. So to claim as some people here have implied that the only way to resolve the matter was to have the current version is not true. John Smith's 16:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid you misunderstand the use of "consensus" on Misplaced Pages. I'll admit the usage of the term is unfortunate, in that Misplaced Pages:Consensus is not the same as wikt:consensus -- it's most certainly not unanimity, and the fact there is disagreement does not mean there is no Misplaced Pages:consensus. --jpgordon 16:07, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Where does it say that "consensus" as how Misplaced Pages defines it is a super-majority? All I can see is that "Consensus does not mean that everyone agrees with the outcome; instead, it means that everyone agrees to abide by the outcome". So if one says they would not abide by the "outcome" (e.g. keeping the current version) then there is no consensus. John Smith's 16:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

So your position is that if even you alone keep filling screens full of endless argument, then there is no consensus and we can carry on in permanent pointless disputation? That's not helpful. It's virtually trolling. Paul B 12:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Paul, I suggest you do what I have been advised to do - assume good faith. It is not trolling to have an opinion on a point and not be pushed to drop it. I am responding to what you and others write. So if you are tired to this discussion you can withdraw, having made your point. If you continue to comment you are either "trolling" yourself of feeding the "troll". John Smith's 13:22, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Keep both. (BC is kinda peculiar, to put it mildly. "Christ was born 4BC." Hm.) --jpgordon 15:53, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• Just a note, can someone please dig out the "consensus topic" in the archives. If everyone here is so sure it was formally reached then they must know where it is. John Smith's 16:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• comment - I have always felt that BC/AD was the most appropriate usage for articles in English; I am not much for PC issues. I suspect the majority of average readers are still unfamiliar with the other notation.

This topic is often brought up and I think the concensus, without pointing to it because I don't know where it is exactly and don't want to take the time to find it, was that we were all just tired of seeing/hearing about it. However, I have always felt it was a rather silly outcome; acquiring a stutter just to make sure no personal sensibilities were offended. In the world of academia BCE/CE are used almost exclusively. In the US at large or commonly, one sees BC/AD used the majority of the time. The mere fact that everyone understands what 4 BC means when talking about the birth of Jesus Christ is evidence enough that BC is not taken literally, there is no "hmm" about it. John, I think people are just tired of the discussion; both sides are intransigent in their positions and the current method, though silly to an extreme, works. However, should editors be willing to attempt a final solution, I would be on the side of AD/BC simply because it is the most understood and most common usage in the English language.--Storm Rider 17:05, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Just to reiterate what Stephan Schultz said. This is not a Christian article but an article about a Jew who was the founder of a religion that has its own page. If all the other articles on deities use BCE/CE then for harmony we should use it here but the current system works, has more editor support than any other and has been stable for years. So far only John Smith's has advocated changing the page with Storm stating his preference but being willing to accept the current system. I frankly don't care as there are far more fun things to fight over but labels seem to be an important issue to religious people so I suppose theses cyclical disputes are inevitable. Sophia 08:42, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

• Like Storm Rider, my preference would be for BC/AD. I also feel that if we had that originally, it shouldn't have been changed. However, we seem to have a working consensus, and any change is likely to lead to edit wars over something that really isn't worth it. So, even though it's a bit silly, keep both. ElinorD (talk) 09:01, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Most Jews are offended or irritated by BC and AD because they suggest that Jesus really was Christ and Lord. In contrast, BCE and CE do not imply that Jesus was not Christ or Lord - it simply de-links our calendar from asserting that he is. There is a wolrd of difference between saying that "Jesus really was Christ" or Jesus is everyone's Lord" and saying "I do not believe Jesus is Christ and he is not my Lord." The former statements don't allow for other views; the latter statements definitely allow for other views (not everyone believes Jesus was Christ, but some do; Jesus is not everyone's Lord, but okay, he is your Lord." That is why BCE/CE is less offensive - you can use it and still think Jesus is one with God. Wut how can I say something happened fifty years before Christ without implying I believe Jesus was Christ? In short, the two systems are not comparable. But given how important Jesus is to Christians, I do not object to using AD/BC in this article as long as the other system, CE and BCE, which acknowledge that one does not have to believe Jesus is one's Lord, as well. Be that as it may, this has been relatively stable for years, years during which many people made real contributions to the article by adding content based on research. I still cannot believe that this issue is worth any time or energy when we could instead be reading books and peer-reviewed journal articles (which is time-consuming, but which will provide us with content that will make this a cutting edge encyclopedia). Slrubenstein | Talk 11:44, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Really, what evidence do you have for that? Jews I've met couldn't give a fig because they understand it's a historic link and most people use it in a non-religious way.

If you believe this to be a non-issue, you wouldn't keep writing so much. The fact you do shows that you do care about it. John Smith's 20:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

On a side note, if you really did think so many people found the term BC/AD offensive, surely they would find BCE/CE almost as offensive because it's still measuring time in relation to Jesus' supposed birth. If they cared that much they'd insist wikipedia use a date system that wasn't based around Jesus' life at all. John Smith's 21:19, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. Dating in relation to some agreed-upon event makes sense. The supposed birh of Jesus works ok. But calling it "BC" violates religious requirements for many people. I assume you are aware that Christ is not some guy's surname, but rather the declaration that he is "The Anointed One", i.e. the Messiah? --Stephan Schulz 09:24, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The article's title is "Jesus", not "Jesus Christ". I also think that if people are going to be so pedantic over two letters they're going to get annoyed over the significance over the date as well. Why should some random guy that various people don't think is terribly important be the basis of measuring time? I don't accept your argument on that front. John Smith's 11:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

What does the articles title have to do with this? The dating system uses "before Christ", not "before Jesus". Everytime you use this, you implictely accept the core creed that differentiates Christianity from Judaism. Just imagine to be forced to use the phrase "Allahu Akbar" in everyday transactions (and that one does not even contradict Christian teaching...). And no one claims that Jesus (at least the legend, if not the man) is not important. --Stephan Schulz 12:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

No I do not accept the "core creed" every time I use the term. I know non-Christians (whether atheists or belonging to another religion) who use BC/AD all the time. They couldn't give a fig, nor do I about what you mentioned.

Of course some people say Jesus was not important/that important. John Smith's 12:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)\

Indeed. There are people who use these as pure labels. Others are more aware of the history and meaning. Why do you care? And what is the reference for that "that" in your sentence? Yes, compared to the status as saviour of all mankind, some people say he is less important. But no-one I'm aware of claims he is not important at all - whether part real or pure myth, he is the central figure of a major family of religions.--Stephan Schulz 23:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Why did I say "that"? Because opinions can be relative - why else is the term used? John Smith's 23:15, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Not a useful answer. I asked why you care about AD/CE (question 1) and what your "that" (in "not that important") refers to (question 2). So what is the reference you compare Jesus to? --Stephan Schulz 00:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

What is what reference I compare Jesus to?

Why do I care? Because I feel the article should use a consistent, single term in reference to the dates, and I do not agree with the arguments that BC/AD is so "offensive" so as to require it to sit alongside BCE/CE. As the earliest term used in the first major contribution, BC/AD is the best choice in my opinion. John Smith's 01:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment. I'm for BCE/CE, as I always prefer PC terms, and beleive this one should replace everywhere the antiquated and religiously based AD/BC terms. I think WP, being a secular encylopedia, should have a preference for the former in all cases, but also because its the standard in academia.Giovanni33 20:10, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni, I'm somewhat surprised you've appeared here. When was the last time you had an interest in religious matters or date terms? Your previous accusations over wiki-stalking towards me are looking rather hollow right now. And please, spare me "assume good faith" - you've declared you have the right to decide when it applies and not in the past. John Smith's 20:59, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

John Smith's - play nice and AGF (that's what I'm doing with you despite your aggressive style of posting). Gio may not have posted here for a while but he was very active around the times I remember discussing this the most last year. His appearance is not a surprise to me whereas your sudden interest, despite the fact that you were a registered user when this was really hashed over, is. Sophia 12:04, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sophia, thank you for informing me of his past involvement. However, Giovanni well understands what I mean. He has refused to AGF in the past, claiming he can decide when it applies and not. So if he would like me to assume good faith in this case, he can start AGF himself without making arbitrary decisions as to when he can and cannot.

How can my appearance be a suprise when I have never been here? How can a user thus ever start to get involved in a page? As you said, AGF. John Smith's 12:17, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm reluctant to respond since its somewhate off topic. But, John Smith's please do assume good faith. I do check these pages occassionally, and have been involved in this topic many times in the past, as Sophia points out (I actually check Sophias contribs every now and then as we share similar article interests). That you did follow me to several articles before, or so it seemed, has nothing to do with this. Nor is my comment about assuming good faith relevant here (for the record, my point about that was there comes a point where no assumption is necessary given an abundance of evidence making any other interpretation beyond what is reasonable). That is just common sense, so please don't twist that to mean AGF does not apply; it does not invalidate your--or anyone else's--obilgation to AGF, where an assumption is quite necessary. Here that it certainly is the case, as you are making a very big, and rather blind, assumption regarding why I happen to be here despite, or ignorance, of the evidence to the contrary. This makes it a clear violation of AGF where the policy cleary is intended to apply.Giovanni33 20:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

"That you did follow me to several articles before, or so it seemed" Yes, or so it seemed. And it seemed to be that was what you were doing here. John Smith's 22:45, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Showing up on one article that I've been to before and whose issue I have been involved in before, does not resemble in any way your wikistalking me to several articles that you had no history on until I showed up. If I did it to several of your articles (over 3), and it just happened, then you'd have a point. Its the point I had before when you kept showing up to revert me. But that is not what we have here, so for you to say it "seems" that way under these circumstances is a baseless attack and clear violation of AGF. There is no comparison.Giovanni33 00:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Following a comment I wrote to ElinorD, John Smith writes, "The article's title is "Jesus", not "Jesus Christ". I also think that if people are going to be so pedantic over two letters they're going to get annoyed over the significance over the date as well." But he is wrong. I have read (and listened to) lots of comments by people who oppose BC/AD; all of them are satisfied with BCE and CE, and none of them have gotten annoyed over the date. The only people who ever raise the possibility of this objection, in all my experience, are people who actually want to use BC/AD exclusively. In other words, it is a red-herring. I have explained, in good faith, with no insults, why many people are offended by BC/AD and John Smith's' response is, in effect, I am making it up. So we are all now clear on who lacks good faith. He certainly did not take my comment in good faith. He just wants to argue. If you want to fight, go to a pub and pick one. Me, I am checking my watchlist and then going back to reading a book - you know, doing research. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:21, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, I think you are actually lacking good faith. I have never said anywhere you were making anything up. I merely disagree that so many people care that much. I think you only person picking a fight is you, because you clearly don't like being contradicted. That's not my problem. John Smith's 22:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Did I misinterpret your saying "Really, what evidence do you have for that?" as implying I have no evidence? I informed you that many Jews are offended by the use of BC/AD as general conventions (I mean, they are not offended when a Christian uses them, only when the Christian assumes everyone else has to use them). Why not accept what I say in good faith? I fully understand why Christians want to continue using BC and AD but their reasons are precisely why many Jews do not want to be forced to use these terms.Slrubenstein | Talk 10:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you did misinterpret. I was trying to make the point that everyone's experiences differ. You can say "most" Jews are offended - it is my experience that is not the case. And you did say "most", not "many". If you want to retract your earlier comments, fair enough. Also, why are you bringing up American Baptists? John Smith's 10:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• On a side-note I think it's rather ironic that I'm being asked to assume good faith (fair enough) when some editors clearly don't want to take note of that guideline. I don't know, maybe it's a case of "four legs good, two legs bad"..... John Smith's 23:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Avoid neologism, use only BC/AD. I know I'm coming late to this scuffle. For the record, I prefer the use of BC/AD only and think that BCE/CE is rank neologism that ought not appear anywhere in Misplaced Pages, per WP:Avoid Neologisms. The.helping.people.tick 04:00, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Check the Common era article. Just because you've never heard of it doesn't make it a neologism. Sophia 05:35, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages good articles
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