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Current issues

Controversial AfD closure - a heads-up

A particularly controversial AfD, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid, is coming up for closure shortly. It's one of the most contentious AfDs I've seen in a long time, with over 100 !votes so far (currently with a slight majority for deletion). Given that members of WikiProject China, WikiProject Judaism, WikiProject Israel and WikiProject Palestine are heavily involved in the dispute, it's probably best for an admin with no involvement in those WikiProjects or subject areas to close the AfD, so that any claims of bias on the part of the closer can be avoided. The closer will need to have a fair amount of tact and diplomacy (which rules me right out :) as well as a strong grasp of policy, particularly regarding the nature of notability and original research, and ideally a willingness to think through the issues as elegantly as A Man In Black did in his closure of Daniel Brandt. Any volunteers? -- ChrisO 18:40, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll have a look - no promises as whether to complexly merge anything! But, my word, I'd need to think about the closure, probably a day or so. Then again, maybe not. Moreschi 18:58, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

What a mess. Good luck to whomever takes this one on. MastCell 19:01, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

^demon closed it as delete. Expect an equally messy DRV. —Kurykh 19:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No doubt. I'm reminded of Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Daniel Brandt 2 (ugh). -- ChrisO 19:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Probably... though I have to say, I was reviewing it too and I would have probably done the same thing, including offering the content for Hukou to be resurrected for use. There was some good info there, it was just supporting original synthesis and a neologism.--Isotope23 19:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

So much for WP:AGF, eh Chris? Tomer 20:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I AGF. The discussion in the AfD shows that quite a few people don't, at least in this case. We don't need yet more controversy and drama in this affair; that's why I suggested that someone wholly uninvolved in anything to do with the wikiprojects or subject matter should close the AfD. Believe me, I've been there with another article and I'd hate to see another admin facing the barrage of crap that I did. -- ChrisO 20:45, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

You're suggestiong that no editor from WikiProject China, WikiProject Judaism, WikiProject Israel and WikiProject Palestine should not be allowed to close an AFD that involves those WikiProjects. That doesn't strike me as assuming good faith. You and I have very different ideas of AGF. FeloniousMonk 22:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

What I got from the post was that in having the closing admin be not from one of those projects, any disagree-ers wouldn't be able to use the argument "The closing admin was biased". I thought this was just an attempt to get somebody to close the discussion that would have the least likelihood of being called biased. Nobody suggested no allowing members of those projects from closing the discussion. Sancho 22:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. They could have closed it, but they would have got a load of abuse from one side or the other if they had. It's better all round to avoid that. -- ChrisO 22:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

No, actually, ChrisO, as a member of none of those projects, is setting himself up as a neutral party to close the relevant AfD as he sees fit, and is seeking approval here for his doing so...meanwhile directly impugning the reliability of any admins who contribute to those projects. The vacuous support in favor of this maniacal scheme is astonishing, to say the least. ChrisO is setting himself up as the pretended arbiter of neutrality, and people here, in what I can only believe is mind-boggling ignorance and gullibility, are proceeding to give him carte blanche to do so. If anything, this sort of lunacy should call into question the competence of those who go along with this moronic idea, and simultaneously call for ChrisO to be prohibited from having anything to do with the closure of this or any related discussion. Tomer 06:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? The AfD was closed four days ago - three days before you posted this - by two uninvolved admins. Don't tell me you posted this nonsense without even bothering to click on the link to the AfD? -- ChrisO 17:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a fair request designed both to mitigate complications at the inevitable DRV and (perceived or real) COI. I fail to see the problem with the request. --ElKevbo 23:47, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems like a fair call. Until(1 == 2) 20:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, not really, knowing the history there. FeloniousMonk 22:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Ugh. It seems this mess isn't over yet - I've just come across Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of tourist apartheid in Cuba, an AfD on a sister article which involves many of the same editors and all of the same set of arguments. It likewise needs closing. Again, I suggest an uninvolved closer for this one to avoid any claims of bias. -- ChrisO 01:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Closed that one. f anyone wants to discuss the close, feel free. Viridae 02:10, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I find it reasonable. The rename fixes most of my concerns, at any rate. >Radiant< 09:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if you mean Viridae's recommendation to rename the article, or the act of renaming which I performed earlier - the article is now at Tourist segregation in Cuba. Which did you mean? And do you have any thoughts on the new title? -- ChrisO 18:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Aaaaaaaand here comes the DRV - Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Allegations of Chinese apartheid. By the way, does anyone else find it really inappropriate that Leifern attempted to delete (!) the co-closer endorser's statement from Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Allegations of Chinese apartheid? () -- ChrisO 07:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and I would recommend a warning - although co-closers arent the norm, they arent disallowed, and therefore have no reason to be removed. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 07:35, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The circumstances are quite amusing - from Hemlock's user talk page: "There was an edit conflict as I submitted my closure. I contacted ^demon on IRC to jokingly complain, and another administrator suggested I do an endorsement." It's actually quite fortuitous because it shows that two admins, operating independently, came to much the same decision simultaneously using the same policy arguments. -- ChrisO 07:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to pat the admins on the back for this one. While a DRV was inevitable, at least a clear, thought out, and substantial reasoning was put in the close so at least there is less to contest. David Fuchs 19:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

You'd think so, but the opposing comments are getting steadily more insane - it looks like I've been fingered as "one of the ringleaders" (sic) of TEH CABAL. Apparently the rest of you are my sockpuppets, or something. It's sour grapes all round - not much good for producing anything other than a little whine. -- ChrisO 20:41, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

ChrisO, how can you possibly believe these remarks are w/in the bounds of either WP:AGF or WP:CIV? To say nothing of WP:NPA. True, you're pontificating here to a "general audience", but in the process you're effectively besmirching anyone who happens to disagree with your rather disagreeable views and actions. If I were a British Parliamentarian, I'd probably yell "Shame, good sir, shame!", and with good reason. You are incredibly out of line. Tomer 05:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

After the 4th administrator showed up to endorse I was waiting for the cabal claims to start. I should start telling fortunes.--Isotope23 20:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

We should prolly remove the mop icons and admin cats and all mentions of adminship from our user pages. Of course, then they would still hunt us down and claim we were an even more secret cabal, so I guess that wouldn't help either... I am actually amazed I didn't realize how much crap admins got when I got nominated back in the day. David Fuchs 04:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I hate to say it, but now I'm horribly reminded of this. --Hemlock Martinis 07:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

That can only be possible if you truly have no concept whatsoëver about what's going on here. Tomer 05:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Wow, um, nice to meet you too? --Hemlock Martinis 04:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

What ChrisO conveniently neglects to mention is that he and his "cabal" are not a group of admins against a bunch of anonymous trolls. This is a dispute between ChrisO and his opinionated and misinformed gaggle of know-it-all admins in opposition to a bunch of other admins, a number of whom happen to be Jews. This is something that becomes obvious when the relevant discussion is read in full. It is not without cause that there are numerous charges of thinly-veiled antisemitism that have been made in the various relevant discussions, not only against ChrisO, but against a significant number of other editors, including a merry gang of uncharacteristically deletionist admins. Tomer 05:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Since we're discussing this business anyway, I feel I should mention that the issue in general is being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Allegations of apartheid. -- ChrisO 08:17, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Two days late, eh? Tomer 05:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Tomer, you need to stop accusing other editors and admins of anti-Semitism unless you have some reasonable evidence of this. I mean something beyond the fact that you disagree with them. Right now. I'm not kidding. MastCell 15:41, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I've asked Tomer to retract his statement, which I regard as a nasty smear against several conscientious editors and admins. I'm not holding my breath though. In the meantime, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid has now opened. I've added some proposed findings of fact and evidence which may be of interest to editors who've contributed to this discussion. -- ChrisO 19:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Raul654 and personal attacks

(This thread and the thread above are not intertwined, whereas they essentially follow from the same issues)

Raul654 is a very passionate editor about global warming and has indeed started to call me a liar on the grounds that I am on the opposite side of his views or that I object to using op-eds in partisan publications as to support what he calls "reality" (see the very link that he provides above, for instance ().

You will find no evidence of any serious edit war in which I have been involved (except for Raul's latest personal attack which I will discuss below), and that Raul's view of the negativity of my edits is usually constructed upon his strongly held opinions. Raul has lately labeled me as someone who "spreads lies all over these talk pages" (). I attempted to remove it twice, but he reverted. I took the initiative to address this issue on his talk page but failed to have him retract anything.

Raul654 is an administrator and just like any other editor, he at least bears the responsibility to act responsibly and not to let his emotions take over.

I know that I am bold sometimes and that I have contrarian opinions on a few subjects, notably global warming, but this kind of bullying by an administrator is, I hope, out of place on Misplaced Pages.

Can the personal attack be removed and Raul be encouraged to make at least an apology or to temper down his emotions? Sorry that I had to bring this up here. --Childhood's End 14:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Dispute seems to stem from content issues, where Childhoodsend may be a lone voice. This is not necessarily an impossible position from which to find consensus, but it is an easy way to dispute. On his talk page, I've invited Childhoodsend to find an univolved third party to help work out a resolution. I've also invited him to calm down, as it'd be shame to walk into a block for lack of civility and disruption. --Dweller 14:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, thanks again for the advice about finding an uninvolved third party. But.. where have I been uncivil?! I've been called a liar and someone who spreads lies all over the talk pages and I think I stayed calm nonetheless, but perhaps I missed something? And wasnt this attack at least uncivil? Please help as I obviously dont understand something... --Childhood's End 14:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. I have no axe to grind. Amended. --Dweller 14:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with CE here. He has made some very fair points on the GW talk pages. Raul has responded with personal attacks and an attempt to get CE banned. As an admin Raul should know better than this. Iceage77 14:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to add that Raul654 has made a number of personal attacks in the past, often on misguided vendettas or emotions, as Childhoodsend states above. It should also be mentioned that Raul654 is a partisan in the global warming topics (unfortunately, with little knowledge on the subject), and has been blocked in the past for edit warring over such topics. ~ UBeR 14:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I was blocked once, months ago, for going over the 3rr limit without realizing it (The only time in 4 years of editing that I have been blocked). On the other hand, Uber has been blocked plenty of times for his trolling and POV pushing on the subject. UBeR is one of the the anti-science POV pushers on the topic. Raul654 14:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me? I've been one of the few editors who have argued that only scientific sources should be used for scientific claims. You link comments made by yourself because you clearly have no ground to support your baseless claim. It has always been this way. You're wrong. Period. Just retract your statements and live your life knowing you did the right thing, and that'll be the end of it. As for the blocks, most of them come from you without any chance of review. Surprising. ~ UBeR 15:11, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Raul, you're in the wrong here. Pointing out a history of blocks by you suggests that you are not above abusing your powers to block those who disagree with you. David Fuchs 16:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You're wrong on all counts. 4 different admins have blocked Uber on 5 seperate occasions over a period of several months. So it's quite obviously not a personal vendetta. He's a long term problem user - a troll. He gets blocked a lot. No surprises there. See also this previous thread where he is taken to task by the community for general trolling. Raul654 17:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, in that thread I asked you to show evidence to support your attacks. Not surprisingly, you had none to show. Today, you still have none. Just give up trying to ban those you dislike from Misplaced Pages. You've failed each time you have tried. Go on, pursue some other activity than user bashing. Thank you. ~ UBeR 18:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I did show evidence - your hit list, your harassment of WMC, the general POV pushing. You simply chose to ignore the evidence and now claim none was provided. Raul654 20:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. I replied to your accusations in a three paragraph response that could not even been addressed by yourself. You simply went on, stating that I am a POV pusher and that anyone who spoke against your meritless attacks and accusations was also a POV pusher. I presented all of my edits to global warming during that time, and asked where the POV was. Of course, there was none. Again, you're wrong. Give up and apologize and everything will be fine. Thank you. ~ UBeR 21:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Raul defines evidence as either 1- his opinions, or 2- material found in newspapers/magazines . Fortunately for my carreer, I have never built my cases like this. --Childhood's End 21:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

As an admin not involved in editing these controversial articles, I looked through the edit histories and didn't see evidence of any severe personal attacks. I did see some minor civility issues on the part of Raul, but nothing that's worth an administrator intervention. If any diffs can be provided to actual personal attacks, please provide them. Otherwise this appears to be an editorial disagreement and I don't see why an admin needs to get involved.--Alabamaboy 15:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The thread at Childhoodsend's talk page indicates to me that this pair of threads can be closed. Indeed, doing so is the best way of ending disruption, as further disruption is likely to be limited to these two threads. --Dweller 15:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

To answer Alabamaboy's request, here are a few diffs that could count as personal attacks , per WP:NPA#What is considered a personal attack? ("Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done"), but I will trust the judgment of the administrators involved here.

Anyway, I'd agree to close this down, but Raul chose to bring this now to the Community Sanctions Noticeboard, so I guess this will not end here... --Childhood's End 17:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Seems pale after being called an idiot and troll countless times by this user. ~ UBeR 19:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Not that I want to push this affair any much further, but only as a matter of closing it for good, addressing any remaining issue and/or for my own information, I'd like to know how the following statements by Raul654 were not "personal attacks" as the concept is understood under WP:NPA :

• "Here's just a sampling from the BS you have been planting all over this talk page"
• "Childhoodend's actions have made it quite clear that he is not editing in good faith. He is a POV warrior through-and-through, and mediation is not going to fix that."
• "it's not rant to collect your asinine comments and point out how they differ from reality - and that every word you write is a lie, including "and" and "the" "
• "He is a anti-science POV pusher" and "don't take my word for it that he's a hopeless POV pusher"

I am not sure how this can escape WP:NPA but perhaps someone has a clue for me. To be honest, it has not been easy to face such derogatory attacks during the last few days, but I think I can say that I kept my cool and faced the tide against a very angry administrator trying anything to bring me down. Just asking for a follow-up here. If nothing's warranted, I'll abide with. Regards. --Childhood's End 03:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Webpage which is a cut and paste from Wikipeda

The following webpage has apparently cut and pasted information from every article on American military ranks on Misplaced Pages. I have found sections cut directly from the articles on General, Colonel, Major, Captain, Airman, Airman First Class, First Lieutenant, and General of the Air Force. The danger is that people might think its the other way around and that Misplaced Pages editors have been taking stuff from this website. We already had a case where an administrator deleted General of the Air Force because it was a "copyright violation" against this webppage. Not true at all and its the other way around...this website has taken our material and posted it as its own. Some kind of notice should be put up so we don't have mass deletion of pages that editors have worked hard to create. Thank you! -OberRanks 14:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Send them an email explaining the GFDL and what they have to do. WP:COPY#Reusers' rights and obligations has a simple explanation of what needs to be done. I've restored General of the Air Force, based on the page history I agree with you. Prodego 16:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

See also WP:FORK#Non-compliance process. Newyorkbrad 16:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for being so observant, OberRanks. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 01:50, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It's been my experience that these sites just ignore such requests.Rlevse 23:46, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Well if they do you can enact the DMCA though the ISP. Prodego 18:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Hence we need to be very careful when deleting our pages as "copyright violations". Check, check, and check again, that we copied them and not the other way around. Carcharoth 15:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Not breaking the 3RR

I try to be pretty careful about not violating the three-revert rule. A brand new editor is making typical brand-new-editor, unencyclopedic, poorly written edits in a low-traffic article that's not on many editors' watch list. The edits are not vandalism, they are just bad edits. I've already reverted them twice and attempted to explain to the editor why the edits cannot remain. I am aware of WP:DR steps, but this isn't exactly a dispute. What do I do next? I don't want the unencylopedic language to remain in the article. I'm not necessarily asking someone to revert the edits for me; I'm generally asking what the appropriate step would be in this case and similar cases.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 17:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I've had this same problem. See #Confused and sometimes upset, above. --Eyrian 18:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

OK. I'm going to see if WP:RSN is of any assistance, as suggested above.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Another good suggestion, if it's a lower-traffic page, is to put a note at Misplaced Pages:Third opinion. This can help bring in uninvolved individuals to help correct errors that may be more complex than simple vandalism. (ESkog) 00:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Suspected copyright violations

Due to a very productive new bot (thanks User:Coren) we need more admins and experienced editors working on Misplaced Pages:Suspected copyright violations, pretty badly. If you can handle text copyrights, there will apparently be quite a few to handle there... just delete, tag, deal with, etc. Thanks. --W.marsh 18:37, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

But as always, check, check, and check again that we copied them, as opposed to them copying us. See the section just above this one. Carcharoth 15:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah -- I've been editing this page for a while, and Coren's bot is very productive. However, there are zounds of edits, and since I don't have admin buttons, there's a limit to how much I can do right now. Plus, I have work and stuff -- more help needed! --Haemo 00:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I am on wikibreak, but it is good to see SCV growing :-) -- ReyBrujo 01:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Questions about deletion

Hello, I had asked some questions about deletion on the policy talk page, but didn't get many answers, so I would like to ask a few questions here, as they concern administrators also. In this diff, Cbrown1023 is saying the closing decision for an AfD can be based on a vote count. I thought I had seen somewhere that AfD specifically did not work by vote count, which one is true ? I am asking because of Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dragonfly CMS, what I don't understand is that there are no third party links in that article, it's undeniable, as far as I can see. Yet the AfD still closed as Keep even though nobody gave any indication of notability. Also people are saying that article is still being written, yet it was started over 2 years ago ?! In the case of companies or products, if they can't provide proof of notability in over 2 years and nobody in the AfD proves notability, how come it is not deleted ? I have heard of how "I DON'T LIKE," is not a reason for deleting, is "I DO LIKE", a valid reason for keeping an article ?
I know about WP:DRV and have read most of the policy pages relating to deletion. I am not asking for anything to be done, just for some answers if possible please. If you don't like me asking questions, please don't ignore me, just tell me to stop asking questions. Thanks. Jackaranga 14:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It looks like it qualifies under Speedy Delete - A7. I have marked it as such. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 20:54, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't be marked as a speedy deletion candidate or a prod candidate unless there is a reasonable expectation that the deletion would be uncontroversial. This article went through an AFD where there was a split among keep and delete comments. That indicates that it does not meet the 'uncontroversial' criterion for speedy deletion. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 23:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I think since there was so little feedback the admin should have relisted the AfD rather than a simple 'keep' for vote tallying sake. David Fuchs 00:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

So is vote counting one way of choosing the outcome of an AfD? If there are not enough policy related arguments I guess they have no choice but to listen to the majority. Jackaranga 10:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I would have closed the debate as delete despite the fact there wasn't a single delete vote. Ceyockey - It qualifies under speedy delete. Clearly. The fact that 3 people at AFD miss that point dosn't change anything. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

• To clear up a misconception - articles should not be PRODded after a deletion debate; however, speedy deletion trumps AFD, hence anything that meets the speedy criteria can be deleted regardless of what people say about it on AFD.
• Aside from that, I note that the principal arguments to keep on the AFD are "for procedural reasons" (which doesn't make any sense in this context) and "Is under active development" (which is irrelevant, and also inaccurate judged by the edit history). Based on that, the closing is doubtful.
• And aside from that, after more than two years here, the article has very little content, no sources whatsoever, does not assert significance, the recent "fix" was adding copyvio text from the developer's site, focuses mostly on "features" in an advertising tone, and is plausibly linkspam. Hence, deleted. >Radiant< 11:43, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Refs formatting policy

Somewhere back I started on Misplaced Pages in April 2006, I looked up our refs policy and somewhere read that when formatting an online citation with no author, to place the website first. Now, I must have read this before September 2006, because when I wrote Jake Gyllenhaal I was already using this format. But I've been asked twice now during FCs where this policy is and I can't find it in any of our CITE pages. Did I dream this? Has it been deprecated? Am I looking in the wrong place? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

This doesn't require administrative buttons - you might take future questions like this to the Misplaced Pages:Help desk. You might be looking for Misplaced Pages:Citing sources, or Misplaced Pages:Footnotes, or possibly the guidelines on a specific references template such as {{Citeweb}}. Mak (talk) 21:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I tend to find the help desk as useful as a chocolate teapot, and my question requires a deep knowledge of policy, so I thought that admins might be better qualified to answer. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:45, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree the help desk may not be the right place, but this isn't it either. I would suggest either the talk page WT:CITE or the policy village pump. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

(Now that I've added 'useful as a chocolate teapot' to my repertory, I must be careful not to wear it out with overuse.) --Wetman 00:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

See, this is the sort of thing that gets me a little frustrated. I hate it when people get so hung up on citation templates and the order in which these things go and reflists and what have yous, to the complete detriment of any actual work on the article. This is rather wankerish (see #20). Why not just IAR and let people do what the devil they want? Moreschi 11:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Gaimhreadhan

According to a close associate, Gaimhreadhan (talk · contribs) passed away after a long illness (see here). I have noted this on his user page and protected it, and invited an editor familiar with his work to write a brief memorial at WP:RIP. However, I seem to remember it was once policy to block the account of deceased editors. I can't see find anything mentioning that now though, is anyone familiar with the proper course of action in such sad circumstances? Rockpocket 01:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Upon the supposed death of HolyRomanEmperor, he was indef blocked, but it doesn't appear that there was any formal discussion undertaken. I'm inclined to think that, whilst there don't appear here to be many of the questions of veracity that ultimately plagued us with respect to HRE, we might do well to err on the side of not blocking; I can't imagine that there's any immediate grand danger of Gaim's account's being hijacked, and we usually don't, after all, block the accounts of users who have departed (although the reasons for that don't necessarily apply here). Once we are sure that Gaim isn't returning (perhaps we already are), there's really no harm in blocking the account, I guess, and some (perhaps exceedingly minor) benefit, but time is not of the essence, I'd say. Joe 04:21, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Joe is not wrong. There is absolutely no danger of Gaimhreadhan's account being hijacked. As one of the two executors of his estate (the other executor is not a Wikipedian), I think I am in an authoritative position to state that fact with absolute confidence. However, there were (and are continuing) unresolved issues of puppetry here.

I have requested that a non-anonymous, senior administrator or bureaucrat e-mail me to resolve these issues. After that issue has been resolved - (ie. I have established my bonafides, and EPA,) I will be able to state with authority that Gaimhreadhan's User page should be protected, but that (perhaps as a fitting memorial to his inclusionist philosophy and efforts at bringing the disparate communities and POV's together in a collegiate manner,) G's User Talk page be left unprotected' (but actively monitored to remove personal attacks and vandalism in line with usual Wikipeida policy.

I am sorry to be so "German" about this, but the correct time to protect Gaimhreadhan's User (as opposed to Talk page) is after the "non-anonymous, senior administrator or bureaucrat" has received the certified copy of Gaimhreadhan's death certificate from me giving the official date and time of death. That is the correct order, timing and procedure and anything less would be insulting to the happy memories I have of my friend and former colleague.

Right now, today, would also be an appropriate time for User:Tyrenius to either

1) apologise and retract her continuing snide comments or

2) put up the "smoking gun" e-mails that she claims (mendaciously/mistakenly) to have sent both me and G. Gaimhreadhan has already challenged her to do so several times (so there can be no issues of confidentiality) and I publicly repeat the same.

Personally, I have a strong preference for the latter - since that would demonstrate the flimsy basis on which she imposed another 13 day block for sockpuppetry on both G and I, but I can understand why she may be reluctant to reveal the truth.

However, if neither an apology nor the e-mail(s?) are forthcoming today then I formally request that she is de-sysopped and blocked for a period of 28 days for disrupting Misplaced Pages and/or WP:NOT#ADVOCATE

Lastly, it would be hypocritical if I did not also apologise for the drunken post I made on her user talk page. It does not excuse the language and I am not proud of my post, but it has been a very stressful period for me and, unlike G, I do drink from time to time. Frank.  W. Frank ✉  05:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Userpage unprotected as per your request above. Having spoken with you in person now, I understand the importance of your request here - Alison ☺ 05:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so there is obviously a larger issue here I was unaware of. Perhaps an administrator who is fully aware of the issues should liaise with Frank deal with Gaimhreadhan's pages when these issues have been resolved. Rockpocket 06:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure. I can do that as we're already in touch. Check your mail, BTW - Alison ☺ 06:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I had a look, but I haven't had any mail today which makes me think my mail server is on the blink (or I am very unpopular). I have changed my wiki-email to another address for the moment until it gets sorted out. Perhaps, if nothing arrives by tomorrow and its not too much trouble, I may ask you to resend. Incidently, there was something about death in our blocking policy for a while (I was beginning to think I made it up). Rockpocket 06:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm. Just pmail me your email address. The one I have has a certain domain in it. - Alison ☺ 06:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Done. Rockpocket 06:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Some help needed (image tagging)

If you accept it, your mission is to clear the following pages of deletable images by deletion, tagging or editing the image page and/or the image itself.

• Category:Publicity photographs with missing fair-use rationale - thousands of images with missing rationales, half rationales and/or no source. May also be replaceable.
• Special:Uncategorizedimages - untagged images, empty image pages for images on commons, vandalized pages
• User:Gmaxwell/orfu - pile of orphaned fair use images
• User:Gmaxwell/possibly evil images - images containing egregious amounts of metadata, may be deleted under CSD I2 especially if unused

Have fun! MER-C 07:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Haha, you forget what we will have to post a bit later today after everyone tags... == Some admin help needed (images) == and we have to spend time deleting or otherwise addressing the concerns by the tags! :) —— Eagle101 18:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Template:This broken?

It appears to be selflinking e.g. on Squirrel. Ewlyahoocom 07:26, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It's fixed now . Ewlyahoocom

It looks like it's still broken on that page to me. Wierd; because it works fine on {{This}}. --Haemo 07:31, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Everything looks fine to me... EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Advertising using Misplaced Pages pages

Is this what I think it is? It seems to be a (possibly cybersquatted) site with lots of adverts with Misplaced Pages content (see bottom of page and hover over the 'view full page' link) being used to draw people there? Carcharoth 16:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Hah, that's rich. Don't think there's much we can do about it, though... EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:40, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

They really should be giving credit to Misplaced Pages. Until(1 == 2) 16:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You're supposed to send the webmaster a GFDL notice. I bet the cybersquatter webmaster doesn't care about the legality of his site, so it's an action in futility. Sean William @ 18:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Unless you pursue the notices to the webmaster to the point where you can send a DMCA takedown notice to the ISP. Prodego 18:37, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been seeing junk like that buried on the lower end of Google searches for a while. Not surprised that the 'view full page' link explains it. Go ahead and attempt contact with the webmaster. I hope that yields fruitful results, but get back in touch with me if reasonable efforts fail. I write a column. ;) Durova 18:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Eh, its simple, talk to the webmaster, if that fails, DMCA takedown will solve it, rinse and repeat for any future sites. —— Eagle101 18:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, one should remember that only he/she who holds the copyright to (at least some of) the material has a valid DMCA takedown claim; if, then, you've not edited (non-trivially) the WP:NOVELS text that appears to be copied here, for instance, you've not really any cause of action. In general, though, yes, any Wikipedian might do well to send a we'd appreciate your compliance with the GFDL letter, at least to those websites that one might reasonably expect to be interested in compliance (see Misplaced Pages:Mirrors and forks for a general discussion, and Misplaced Pages:GFDL Compliance for information on the enumeration of possibly problematic sites). Joe 22:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks for explaining. I'm not going to be doing anything, though... That's why I posted here. For someone else to do something about it! :-) Any volunteers, or anywhere better to report things like this in future? Carcharoth 20:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

So how do we contact this site? I did some navigation and a Google search and couln't find any feedback or e-mail address for it. I suppose they sell ad space somehow, but how? Durova 02:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

. Look what DNSStuff did... Now I am going to need to find a new WHOIS site. Prodego 04:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

This stuff is standard search spam using JavaScript cloaking. They happened to scrape Misplaced Pages content this time, but they also scrape pages from my site and everybody else's. Sending a DMCA takedown notice is an utter waste of time. There are millions of such worthless pages. The owners hide behind anonymous registrations and offshore hosting providers. If a developer wants to contact me I can point out strategies for defeating scraper bots. - Jehochman 04:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Animal liberation POV pushing by admins

There is a group of powerful admins pushing an animal rights agenda here at wikipedia. It is hurting wikipedia. Please help. See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Challenges and issues of industrial agriculture. Thank you. WAS 4.250 18:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I see two comments. One by you accusing people out of the blue, and one by Cerejota, who isn't even an admin. Please explain this disconnection. —Kurykh 18:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Your comments both here and on that AfD page strike me as seriously inappropriate and unnecessarily hostile towards Cerejota. I'd suggest that you tone down your language. -- ChrisO 19:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

There sounds like there is alot more to this, but you'll need to explain the issue further Was 4.250. You can't expect us to do all the digging. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 19:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Factory farming has the dispute in all its nitty gritty. Slim Virgin and her friends are the powerful admins. If they stay out of this, then all the better. Cerejota claims are a puppet like match for SlimVirgin's mistaken claims. I don't pretend to know who is or is not a sockpuppet or a meat puppet or a follower or just a like thinker. But this behavior (animal rights POV pushing) has been going on for too long and it is disruptive. This latest effort is just that. It is part of a larger POV effort that extends back months or years. I believe that some of SlimVirgin's first efforts were in animal rights articles (there are allegations of some oversighting here; but I haven't looked). Interestingly, the actual SlimVirgin edits I've seen on animal rights pages look fine to me. It's slim's edits on agricultural articles that I have a problem with. And her friends like Cerejota appear to me to blindly support her edits and strategies. For all I know, Slim and her actual close friends have decided to back off and the latest effort by Cerejota may be just him left twisting in the wind. I really don't know, and consider SlimVirgin a great asset to wikipedia except for her blind spot in the area of animal rights. I think if enough disinterested admins actually read the articles and talk pages all will work out just fine. That's what I'm hoping for. WAS 4.250 19:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I would still like to see some specifics and not continued generalities. No one is going to take the time to look into this if you don't take it serious enough to spend your own time gathering specifics. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 20:14, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedia building requires reading encyclopedia articles. I claim Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Challenges and issues of industrial agriculture is POV motivated. Cerejota claims the article content itself is POV motivated. I ask that people here read the article and make up their own minds. This would be a content dispute except that the claims are either a personal attack on me by him or a personal attack on him by me. Which is which depends on whether the article is as he says or not. That judgment can only be made by reading the article. Please read Challenges and issues of industrial agriculture and let us know who needs to apologize to who. Thank you for your time. "So this is all about who is to apologize. Stop wasting our time and both apologize." No No No. That's not it. Once you have helped with choosing what constitutes NPOV here; this will help at Talk:Factory farming with its ongoing months long off and on again revert war. WAS 4.250 20:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I do not claim that the contents are POV motivated, I claim the article is a POV fork, and that the contents have various issues, mostly WP:SYNTH/WP:OR, and geographical bias (i.e. {{globalize}}. Please do not further misrepresent my position. Thanks!--Cerejota 00:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Specific diffs, please. Durova 00:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I note that I started this Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:WAS_4.250 because I had no idea this existed, as WAS has not informed me. I would have appreciated if he would have had the same courtesy I had with him in informing the involved.

My posting said:

In Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Challenges_and_issues_of_industrial_agriculture User:WAS 4.250 once again launched an uncalled for personal attack against me, including a series of unfounded accusations, and an unspecified call for a ban, simply because I have argued for deletion of an article he started as a POV fork.

In the past I have placed another Incident report here on this very user, and it was ignored, however this is the second time the user does this, and this is extremely unacceptable and uncivil behavior.

In response to my AfD request, he says:

Cerejota, your outrageous personal attacks and biased wiki-lawyering to further the goals of the animal liberation movement are harming wikipedia. You and your fellow travelers should be banned from wikipedia. WAS 4.250 17:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I see no personal attacks from me to him, and I have not wikilawyered in any significant fashion (in an AfD one HAS to state policy violations as part of a nom), and I am not part of animal liberation movement, nor do I have fellow travelers (I have actually been on the other end of editing disputes with User:SlimVirgin another active editor of Factory farming).

His accusations are false, uncivil and calling for a ban of a fellow wikipedian on no grounds at all is extremely bad behavior. I leave remedy up to the admins, but I just want to know why I can't go to ArbCom with this extreme example of unwarranted personal attack.

I do admit being involved in previous editing conflicts with this user, however he has declined several calls for formal Mediation around the articles in question, and continues free and unwarranted attacks. He must be brought under control. Thanks!--Cerejota 23:57, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Besides this, I must state I am not an admin, and that he re-stated his personal attack here .

I must also state that I apologize if he feels I have launched a personal attack, as this is not my intention, however, it would be useful if he described in what fashion I have attacked him, as I can honestly not see any personal attack in my contributions and comments.

I also repeat my request that someone tell me why I should or shouldn't raise this to ArbCom. The user seems unrepentant, and this is not the first time he does this. He also repeatedly refuses to engage on all other steps in WP:DR. If he is not made to understand why his behavior is unacceptable, then ArbCom is the only answer I can think of. Thanks! --Cerejota 00:24, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

BTW, SlimVirgin and I do agree a lot on these pages, however we have had some less-than-pleasant encounters in the past. Claims of meatpuppetry are beyond the pale and extremely worrying. This is not even fishing. This is out-and-out poisoning the well to protect the POV fork page Challenges and issues of industrial agriculture from being deleted. Thanks!--Cerejota 00:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

WAS has again engaged in unwarranted personal attacks, this time in the edit summaries here and here.

He alleges I have performed vandalism, when in fact both tags where place along with comments in all relevant talk pages here, here, and here.

If he disputes the tags and merge proposal, he is free to discuss in the talk pages in question, but calling "vandalism" what constitutes normal wikipedia tagging and discussion process is really insulting, and a wanton disregard for process, in particular considering this thread here and the AfD.

This wanton incivility is intolerable. Thanks!--Cerejota 08:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. I recently came across this dispute while browsing ANI, and I would like to offer an outside opinion. I'm not sure that those reverts are necessarily examples of "wanton incivility". Obviously it's somewhat abrasive to call someone else's edits vandalism, but the discussion posted on the talk page is fairly inadequate. Some kind of specifics should be used when posting a message like that, otherwise, the tag could conceivably remain up there forever. Hypothetically, if a user decided to post "I think this is in violation of WP:SYNTH" and threw up a tag, the tag could remain forever because the justification for adding it is not "here are some issues", but rather, "I think this is a violation." This is in contrast to saying "X section needs an entire rewrite" or "I think this is SYNTH because X,Y,Z..." No matter now much change happens, the user could still claim it's a SYNTH issue until the page is deleted or there's some huge controversy or whatever. This may give the impression that you're more interested in placing tags on the page than solving the issues set forth by the tags. I'm not accusing you of anything, but please keep in mind that communication is the most important thing to the editorial process. Without communication, other editors cannot effectively understand the problem and thus cannot fix it. .V. 14:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I only just saw this notice. I would request that this thread remain open for at least an additional 24 hours so that I may gather diffs to support WAS's statements above. As a side note, I would ask that readers recognize that Cerejota's remarks regarding personal attacks/etc. are irrelevant to the points WAS raised in this thread. Jav43 14:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

They are not irrelevant. An administrator asked me to join them in here from a different thread, as clearly noted above. You just arrive and are already engaging in the usual baseless accusations and are failing to assume good faith. Good move. Admins, take note. Thanks!--Cerejota 02:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

There is something unhealthy afoot. WAS has not necessarily expressed himself well, but has been subject to a dismissive campaign of unfounded statements of lack of competence in editing the various articles. Farming is a broad subject which deserves proper coverage on Misplaced Pages. WAS has been instrumental in producing a lot of articles which seem to me to have a coherent structure and are a worthy attempt at increasing the worth of Misplaced Pages. Cerejota, has been party to a faction who have imposed ownership on the factory farming article. Any attempts to restructure this, even when justified by copious discussion, is dismissed and reverted. Crum375, SlimVirgin and Cerejota have been one side of an edit war. The notable point is that one side's version is dismissed via policy this that and the other, and the other version is supported by poor quality sources apparently sourced by Google searches to fit the points - so called source based research.

Admin User:John undertook to moderate, but for whatever reason is not currently active. Since he declared a fresh start, the faction of Cerejota, Crum375 and SlimVirgin were silent on the talk page. Various discussions were attempted and have not been responded to. Cerejota last commented on the talk page on 25th July. .

Since then you can read the discussion page and see that there have been a number of discussion points about issues with the article. These in part related to what should have been fairly uncontroversial edits.

Cerejota then all of a sudden waded in without discussion and did this. with edit note (restore npov intro... "advantages" is a claim, not a true statement). Further edits, with all the usual aspects of edit warring ensued. Cerejota makes comments such as (restore to last good version, please see talk) but this appears to refer to some historic discussion. Cerejota's total contribution to discussion has been to quote policy breeches without explaining how. For example these edits, used to support his case are simple claims of policy breech without explaining why - here, here, and here this is The Bellman's Rule of Three (what I say three times is true). I haven't gone all the way back through history, but I do not see any contributions other than reverts to the article by Cerejota in the last few months. This is an unhealthy characteristic for an editor. Having stood by silently, all of a sudden Crum375 and SlimVirgin joined in the edit war.

I would highlight the SV involvement. I had picked up through my watch page that SV was on some form of WikiBreak. ElinorD has been standing guard over her home page, reverting some trolling and a few innocent waifs and strays who got caught in the firing line. She commented that SV was not on Wiki but was contactable by email. I highlight her history where she appears from Wikibreak and having been inactive since the 7th, the first three edits are on the deletion request and Factory farming ( ). As is typical in the factory farming edit warring, the tag teaming is joined by Crum375 . The sole edit from Crum375 on discussion is this which does not discuss content. In the context of the discussion, it is a discussion which starts with myself expressing confusion as to what the actual problem is. Interestingly, Cerejota for the first time makes a statement based on content, however, whilst making a claim that he has the sources to back his position up, he does not add these to the article to justify his reversion which is taking a position.

What is the point of these ramblings? It appears that Cerejota believes that a continuous campaign of repetitious quoting of policy without reasoned debate, whilst personalising the discussion into his proofs, his views, the wrongness of other editors is all perfectly normal and acceptable and cannot possibly be misinterpreted as personal attack. Further, Crum375 joins in with the edit warring. Complain of this he will look innocent and aggrieved (yet was party to the edit warring that last got the Factory farming page protected). SlimVirgin is the one editor who has been genuinely trying to make a contribution to the page, but has reacted with such ownership that reasoned debate does not seem possible. (I have made my views on the issues with the structure of the page clear on the discussion page and would challenge anyone to assert that I am unreasonable in putting them forward as an improvement to the subject e.g. ). SV has walked away from discussion essentially claiming harassment, whereas she cannot see that perhaps the need for lengthy rebuttals is her intransigent position, supported by her edit warriors. Acting in concert is seen as bad thing when it is those against Cerejota, yet if you analyse the contributions, they are coming from different angles and there is no particular organised faction, yet SV and Crum are a well known pairing, Cerejota I have no view of aside from on Factory Farming and related articles, who subscribe to the view that their edit warring is appropriate in the face of all the evil trollers like myself that they face on a daily basis. Spenny 13:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Autoconfirmed proposel

this one needs views from a wider audience. Please feel free to go there and comment. Regards, Navou 19:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

So basically the proposal is to switch from "4 days" to "4 days and 20 edits"? ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 20:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Its all there in the talk page and proposal page, but I think so, yes. Comments are welcome there. Regards, Navou 22:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like the 420 crowd is attempting an excellent prank. :) ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 05:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Allegations of Saudi Arabian apartheid merge

Looking at Talk:Allegations_of_Saudi_Arabian_apartheid#Proposal suggests a preference for merging by a margin of 9:3. Since the merge looks pretty straight forward (as much of the material is already in the target articles) I've done a partial merge by adding material to the target articles without removing anything from the "source". I wonder if a neutral editor (ie not involved with Wikiproject Saudi Arabia, Israel, Palestine etc) could review the talk page discussion and, if he or she agrees there is a consensus for a merge, redirect the article to Human rights in Saudi Arabia#"Apartheid"? Lothar of the Hill People 21:18, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Bouncing an idea

I've written a user space essay that might be a good addition to WP:NOT. Please see User:Durova/Wikipedia is not an experiment in consensus reality. Feedback and improvements are welcome. Durova 02:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I strongly agree with its content, though I might title it, "Misplaced Pages is not on the cutting edge" or something. The point being, as Durova has articulated, that Misplaced Pages changes in response to changes in human understanding, not in anticipation of them. I encounter this problem often enough that I'd support adding something to this effect to WP:NOT. MastCell 03:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT#Misplaced Pages is not precognitive? Misplaced Pages does not predict the future? Misplaced Pages is not a social trendsetter? (brainstorming names). Like the content.⇒ SWATJester 05:58, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not about wikiality? Durova 06:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• Isn't that what WP:NPOV is about? >Radiant< 11:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• I wonder if the corollary applies as well? By which I mean if sources we use now later disappear from the historical record, should we remove the sources because they can no longer be verified (and we can't be sure that anyone ever did verify them). I phrase this as "if society can't be bothered to keep a record of something, Misplaced Pages shouldn't attempt to preserve the record", or put another way "Misplaced Pages is not intended to be used to document past information that has since been lost". Which brings me back to Durova's point, which seems to be "Misplaced Pages is not intended to be used to document information that hasn't yet 'arrived'". If you get my meaning. Once the information has arrived, we can use it. If it disappears, we can no longer use it. This all goes back to Misplaced Pages being a tertiary source, not a secondary or primary source. Carcharoth 14:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • As stated at Misplaced Pages:No original research#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources. I'd say Durova's essay is covered by WP:NOR, rather than WP:NPOV, though of course these are all related at some level. Carcharoth 14:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • "if society can't be bothered to keep a record of something, Misplaced Pages shouldn't attempt to preserve the record" Misplaced Pages is not a time capsule? --Eyrian 14:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Yes. That's a good way of putting it. Carcharoth 22:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Carcharoth, I'm trying to imagine an example of this happening: say, a website vanishes & all references to it (including those in the Wayback Machine) are removed; or say all copies of a book or article are destroyed, & all references to it also removed. I really can't see either of these happening to the kinds of sources I use. I need an example that couldn't arguably also be an example of a primary source. -- llywrch 20:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I was thinking more of the way people use obscure newspaper references to document current media events and celebrities. It may not be apparent now, but I think that in 10 years time or so, we may be surprised by how much information is 'lost'. I hope I'm wrong, and that the masses of information achieve some sort of order, and that the information is preserved, but I think that certain types of attenuation will take place as well. The Internet Wayback Machine helps, but what comes after that? Huge stores of old information may suffer the fate I see collections of old pictures suffer - they get bartered off to the highest bidder, and then it gets repackaged, and slowly but surely the information degrades. Not the literal information, but the organisation, especially with problems of backwards compatibility. Google Groups is an interesting case in point. Usenet message IDs used to be the way to identify old messages (and you can still do that), but lots of people now use the Google Groups message ID, which is different. The connection point between the two is in a Google database somewhere. Unless you have the date and name of the poster, you rely on the connections being maintained between the two identifying numbers. Those who subscribe to the en-wikipedia mailing list may remember what happened when the message-id system changed, and old links to previous posts were pointing at the wrong posts. The SNIPURL and similar services hold a store of information links. If those databases are lost, the old URLS become meaningless. On Misplaced Pages, links to old AN threads fail once the thread is archived, unless you link to a version section (though there is a bot proposed to deal with this). But to get back to the main point, another example is that I see people linking to information on current websites that is incredibly transitory - like the current price of a computer game. I think to myself "If someone comes back in five year's time and finds that the link doesn't work, how do they verify that information?" Some of the stuff mentioned on websites is hardly ever accessible once the website is revamped or redesigned, and not all wesbites are archived by the WayBack Machine. But if you use reliable, long-term sources, then no problem. Carcharoth 22:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The essay holds a great sentiment, but the trend it criticizes can't be wished away. Knowledgeable, experienced contributors are often driven off by solipsists and hacks, editors who couldn't care less about how NPOV relates to the real world. Even well-intentioned and well-informed editors can become predisposed to injecting bias after years of contribution and a false sense of entitlement. What practices would you suggest be put in place to maintain impartiality? Whats the best way to cure those who suffer from an immunity to reality checks? Maybe there is some way to encourage review of Misplaced Pages articles by respected, professional publications. The Nature study certainly had a positive effect. ˉˉ╦╩ 14:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and that's why I've come to think an explicit policy statement on that point would be a good idea. Some of the existing clauses approach the idea, but there's no specific wording targeted to address wikiality. I've seen university assignments that ask students to analyze Misplaced Pages as a phenomenon and specifically ask about how the concept of consensus reality relates to the site. To a lot of people that connection is intuitive. So volunteers expend a lot of time attempting to communicate how that's not what open editing is about. We'd be in a stronger position to communicate that if WP:NOT included a direct statement. Durova 17:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Turning page RFC into a virtual Arbcom hearing

I protest the turning of a neutral request for comments on an article into what is essentially an illegitimate arbcom complaint. See here. This is totally not appropriate. If editors want to make comments about text on an entry, that is one thing, but the RFC on me as an editor has just been delisted. It is outrageous that there now is an attempt to circumvent this by turning a page text review into an attack on me and my editing.--Cberlet 02:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the RFC was delisted once and this is just an attempt to sidestep that. I'm not familar with the issues here but I'm tempted to delete it unless the creator User:Thedagomar moves it into his or her user space. RxS 03:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagreed with the deletion of the user-conduct RfC, as did several other admins. However, starting a content RfC and then hijacking it to focus on the conduct of specific editors is a misuse of process. I agree with Cberlet and RxS that the content RfC is being used inappropriately, and deletion would be in order. I wouldn't encourage moving it to userspace, because a page like that in userspace (i.e. outside of the dispute resolution machinery) is essentially an attack page. MastCell 03:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not crazy about moving it either, I went ahead and deleted it. If User:Thedagomar wants it back it can be restored into his userspace, but I agree that's not a good option. RxS 03:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I would like to object to the deletion of the RfC on the following grounds. The Remedies section was a boo boo on my part. It was meant to be a talking points section. This was a content RfC not the delisted conduct RfC. Dagomar 05:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't participate in the article RfC, because I think that this is a user conduct problem, not an article content problem. What is outrageous is the deletion of the user conduct RfC. Does this user (Cberlet) have some sort of free pass to violate policy? He is up to his old tricks again at Political views of Lyndon LaRouche, re-inserting material from his organization's website that appears to violate BLP. --Marvin Diode 14:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Requesting removal of admin

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Closing this, as the insults have started to fly and it didn't need admin attention in the first place. Viridae 09:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I have come across 3 editors who are displaying bias - one of which portays him/herself as an Admin and is doing everything in his/her power to what I found.

On 04:29, 30 June 2007 at 0429hrs User:Rollback Guy changed link from "public relations" to "walmart facts"

On 30 July 2007 at 0208hrs User:Salamurai removed mention of and link to wikipedia entry Criticism of Wal-Mart

On 2 August 2007 at 1249hrs, User:Salamurai removed link to news archives of stories concerning walmart yet left link to "walmart facts" in place. User claimed that archives was biased, implying that "walmarts facts" was not.

On 3 August 2007 at 1652 & 1733hrs, and 5 August 2007 5 August 2007 at 1547hrs, User: Gscshoyru did knowingly restore a link to a walmart promotional site known as "walmart facts", claiming the excuse of "External links to their own website is fine -- is an article about them, after all".

Gscshoyru has repeatedly removed the information. If this person is indeed an admin, Why are they allowed to abuse their power like that?

Psycho Samurai

I'm not an admin, nor have I ever portrayed myself as one. And it's hardly abuse of power -- posting this is a personal attack against me and several other editors, and does not belong anywhere on wikipedia. Rather than doing these edits, wouldn't it be better to discuss what you want with those who think otherwise, rather than attacking them? Gscshoyru 04:23, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

None of them are admins. One of them is a blocked sock. Have you ever tried talking to these people? Civilly, may I add? —Kurykh 04:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes I did, actually. the only one who responded was Gscshoyru, and then only to say that there was nothing wrong with him restoring a biased link to a site that is nothing more than company promotion and propaganda. As for Gscshoyru not being an admin, he/she sure seems to THINK he/she is.

Psycho Samurai 04:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The link may or not be biased, but that's hardly the point. It is a link to their own public relations site, and is labeled as such. On a site about a company, a link to their own site in the external links sections is more than fair game; it should be there. Or at least, that's my opinion. If you would discuss it civilly on the talk page, its possible more will agree with you than with me, and I shall bow to consensus, of course. But posting you keep posting personal attacks, and that needs to stop.

And what have I done that makes you think I'm admin? I'm not. I have no admin powers. Just because I try to explain things according to wiki policy doesn't make me an admin. Provide diffs to back up your claims, please. Gscshoyru 04:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

"Walmart facts" is NOT the company's official website - that would be walmart.com. the site you and others have repeatedly restored is a propaganda site walmart created to put thier own spin on information in order to downplay all the news and things they have been caught red handed doing. I tried explaining that to you, but it went in one ear and out the other. In effect, what you and others are doing by restoring that link is promoting walmart's agenda for them. That is just the same as if one were to change the entry to say "walmart is the most holy company on the face of the earth" or "Walmart supports terrorism".

Psycho Samurai 05:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a part of their own website. And yes, in a droll way, you could call a public relations website propaganda. Besides, this, here, is not the place to discuss this. Put up a section on the talk page, be civil about it, and discuss it with others. No mentioning "user X removed it, etc." Say something to the effect of "I don't think this link should be on this page, as it is a link to a POV page, not good for an NPOV encyclopedia," and then discuss with other editors. And if consensus ends up being against you, accept it gracefully, don't go nuts and start spewing angry personal attacks against users and wikipedia. That's the way to go about it. Got it? Gscshoyru 05:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You have some f***ed up views regarding N/POV. Amd you're the only one I've talked to who thinks laying out those facts is a personal attack. Psycho Samurai 05:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Further incivility and/or personal attacks will be met with a block. Have I made myself clear? —Kurykh 05:34, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It is a personal attack -- as it says in one of the warning templates, "Comment on content, not on other contributors or people." Posting those facts is a personal attack, because you're not commenting on the content of the page, but on those who contributed to it in a way you didn't like. Gscshoyru 05:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, this forum has no powers over stripping admins of their power. Only the Arbitration Committee can do that. --Hemlock Martinis 06:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

And stewards. -- Anonymous Dissident 09:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Yet another attempt to excuse bias, Gscshoyru?

Trust me, If I was personally attacking you, I would go after you on every site you're a member of.

Psycho Samurai 09:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Classy. --Masamage ♫ 09:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Iasson requested unblock by e-mail

Back in May 2006, I extended User:Iasson's year-long ArbCom ban after another suspected sockpuppet (Gorbrown). I have now received an e-mail from Iasson, asking to be unblocked, and stating that he is not Gorbrown, and that a year-long ban has expired by now.

Since I am not an administrator anymore (I resigned them back in November), I ask that someone else consider this request and decide whether unblocking the account is appropriate, and if so, do the unblock.

For background I refer to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Iasson, and note that there were several instances of ban evasion, including a host of "Bank of Misplaced Pages" accounts around. The original case regarded massive disruption to the VFD (now AFD) process and serious abuse of accounts. Personally, I have no strong opinion on whether this ban should be rescinded due to it's age, or whether it should remain in place due to the severity of the disruption. I have no knowledge on whether the claim of no ban-evasion attempts the past year is true or not. I'll entrust this case to the current admin corps. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Did his email pledge to actually edit Misplaced Pages articles, and not to try to change Misplaced Pages policy on every AfD? And to quit making nonsense like Bank of Misplaced Pages? Corvus cornix 16:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid not. Sjakkalle (Check!) 06:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid opened

An Arbitration case, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid, has been opened. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Evidence. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Allegations of apartheid/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Thatcher131 15:04, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Esmehwp

Esmehwp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This editor has racked up an impressive number of NPA, NOR, and similar warnings. Ignoring image license notices, the following is a brief record of the talk page history for this user:

1. 20 February 2007: Tells AuburnPilot to "go shoot yourself" Response:
   • Blanked user talk page with "my apologies" edit summary
2. 1 March 2007: On Talk:Jesus: "policy my foot, I'll do as I see fit. Don't waste your time wagging your finger, I won't respond" Vassanya leaves civility note and Welcome2; Ecto leaves comment about Talk:Jesus comments on user talk page; Response is "YEAH YEAH YEAH... move along nothin to see here"
   • 1 March 2007 Esmehwp replaces talk page with "hello"
3. 21 March 2007: Edit wars on Zionism (sample edit summary: "disgusting attempt at whitewashing history reminds one of british colonization of tazmania"); BrandonYusufToropov requests end to edit war adds Welcome message
   • 6 April 2007, Esmehwp replaces content on user talk page with "hello"
4. 13 April 2007, Ethan a dawe requests care regarding NOR and fact-checking, discussion ensues
   • 13 April 2007 Esmehwp replaces content on user talk page with "hello"
5. 30 April 2007 JuJube requests no edit warring on Baha'i Faith
   • 1 May 2007 Esmehwp replaces content on user talk page with "hello"
6. 27 May 2007 Another request for sourcing and NOR this time by Raymond arritt, which also includes note of BLP. Updated to include Astroturfing warning Esmewhp declines discussion
   • 29 May 2007 Esmehwp replaces content on user talk page with "hello"
7. 14 June 2007 Ultramarine warns against Wikistalking
   • 14 June 2007 Esmehwp blanks page replacing content with "hello"
8. 14 June 2007 Ultramarine warns against Harassment, adding 3RR warning
   • 14 June 2007 Esmehwp replaces content on user talk page with "hello"
9. 14 June 2007 Ultramarine leaves note about RS, V, NPOV
   • 14 June 2007 Esmehwp replaces content on user talk page with "hello"
10. 14 and 15 June 2007 Ultramarine suggest mediation. Esmehwp rejects mediation telling Ultramarine not to remove his/her edits, and no mediation would be indicated. Ultramarine reminds Esmehwp about WP:V Esmehwp responds very rudely: "you think I don't know WP policies? don't do that again. read my writing. if you cant understand what I'm saying to you then there's no point in talking. LAST WORD: delete and you'll be reverted. FULL STOP" Ultramarine tries again, Giovanni33 suggests compromise Esmehwp responds with insults and accusations to Ulramarine " I will restore deleted information if I feel the deletion is POV or if it detracts from the article. ultramarine thinks USA is the best country in the world and that is his dogma there is nothing anyone can do about it. it is not based on reason logic or facts its an emotional thing he is an ideological fanatic the only way to stop him biasing WP into his own dogma, is to stand up to him you cant compromise with fanatics I'm not going to run around finding sources for everything he disputes, he can add what he likes he can put up tags if he wants but he cant go around deleting things i'm going to stop him. (...)PS No Ultramarine I don't share your dogma so there's no point in mediation. (emphasis added) Discussion ensues, Utramarine points Esmehwp to Ad hominem, dispute is taken to AN/I(Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive259#Wikistalking)
    • 15 June 2007. Most hostile page blanking yet. Replaced page with 'Hello GET off my user page ULTRAMARINE!!!! there is no point talking to this idiot you just have to fight him Spartan-James reverted, adding vandal warning (incorrectly, unfortunately)
    • 15 June 2007 so Esmehwp blanked the page again, with the now familiar "hello"
11. 13 August 2007 Jossi leaves NPA warning
    • 13 August 2007 and in two edits, Esme states "thanks already deleted" then replaces page with "hello"
12. 13 August 2007 SOPHIA leaves NPA warning regarding edits on WP:AE
13. 13 August 2007 KillerChihuahua (I) leave NPA warning regarding an edit on User talk:ThAtSo

And here we are. Out of 400 edits, some dozen plus warnings on his/her talk page. Please note I did NOT dig through the rest of the contributions, but confined myself to the talk page of the editor with the exception of the Zionism incident. Check contribs if you are interested in more insulting edit summaries used by this editor, and more talk-page insults on article talk pages. I'd take this to Rfc, but as the consistant response of this user has been to blank the page to "hello" and modify his behavior not at all, sometimes with the addition of ad hom attacks, I don't see that an Rfc will have any effect either. Does anyone have any bright ideas on how to get through to this editor? Does anyone think Rfc might help at all? KillerChihuahua 16:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Alienus.

Regardless of identity, I have seen little from this editor but trouble. For example, he calls Christian editors "bible worshipping worms" who "will snuff out anyone who speaks against their love for jesus."05:17, 13 August 2007Proabivouac 06:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

if there is a fair judge here she'll see that I'm a so-so contributor with a bit of a temper but that i act in good faith and do care about WP, and if I make mistakes I always apologise and and I'm being persecuted by a bunch of christian zealots who are trying to scare me or something... yawn.. whatever... also user:Ultramarine is a really bad actor and only a close inspection of his activities over a long period of time shows what damage he does to article content. do whatever you want the only thing it can affect is my respect for the WP justice system.Esmehwp 06:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, you all misunderstand the poor dear. As this post shows, it's just a joke. Or a classic case of trolling. Either way, clearly disruptive editing. Talk page back at hello, I've restrained my impulse to add the comment "goodbye". .. dave souza, talk 07:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

As the post for which I left a NPA warning included the gem "c'mon! jewish thinkers! why there's no such thing!" he seems to be an equal-opportunity insulter. Ok, which should I use as block reason when I indef block this editor?

1. drop down reason of "Vandalism only account"
2. Account being used almost exclusively for gross NPA violations and trolling
3. Unrepentant troll

KillerChihuahua 10:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The second suggestion looks about right. ElinorD (talk) 14:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Since I've not checked all the editor's contributions am unable to comment on option 1., option 2. seems most appropriate. .. dave souza, talk 14:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked with Harassment drop-down, +additional comment version 2. KillerChihuahua 15:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Admin User:Chick Bowen afd close issues

How can an admin close an article at 14 keep / 11 delete at consensus: "delete"? In any event, please help us to restore this article at Deletion Review: Aug 13, 2007. I didn’t even know this happened, it was closed at 14 keeps and 11 deletes; with admins reopening and closing the article on an alternating basis, e.g. see the deletion log history. Thank: --Sadi Carnot 16:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Please read WP:CANVASS. And you are aware that AFD's are not up or down votes, right? Corvus cornix 16:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I posted to interested parties, namely the various science projects: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject History of Science, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Chemistry, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Physics, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Science and two science admins. That this was a poor close is obvious, however one counts consensus. For those of us who read science books at a great rate, there are full chapters and sections written on who is the father or mother of something, e.g. Hippocrates “father of medicine”, Lavoisier “father of chemistry”, Claude Shannon “father of information theory”. I wasn’t a main editor on this article, but can’t believe it was even considered for deletion (a vote that I didn’t know about). Science editors are going to be the ones who know the importance of these terms and this article. --Sadi Carnot 17:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikistalking and other problems regarding disruptive editing

User:HongQiGong edited the History of Japan article for the first time today, so that he could revert the page to a POV version. He has not taken part in the discussions I've launched over the dispute in question - I feel that he is trying to make a point by wikistalking me to push his own preference for BCE/CE.

Both HongQiGong and PHG keep insisting that BC/AD cannot be used because it is "Christian", despite the fact that WP:MOS indicates it is fine to use. Also there was a vote on having BC/AD replaced here, which was rejected. Discussions are going nowhere and both users seem determined to push their own POV.

This will seem like a minor point to many, but I feel that this constant fighting over a term that wikipedia recognises is fine is very disruptive and needs admin attention. I don't see how discussions can get anywhere because both users refuse to accept the wikipedia position that BC/AD is acceptable to use. Why have guidelines and community votes if no one respects them? John Smith's 16:57, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I had to check John Smith's contrib history in order to file Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/John Smith's. Yes, I believe the article History of Japan should use BCE/CE, as the history of Japan is non-Christian for the most part. John Smith's point that BC/AD is acceptable to use is moot - because BCE/CE is also acceptable to use. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You had already filed the application - why did you suddenly join in the reverting? Why didn't you discuss it first?

Your argument that Japan is non-Christian is irrelevant as I already pointed out. The Community had a vote on that subject and rejected a proposal to only use BCE/CE in "non-Christian" articles. Also I was the first one to make the article consistent in terms of BC/AD - it was also the earliest style used in the first major contribution according to WP:MOS.

Your reversion is disruptive. If you had the best interests of the article at heart you would have joined the discussion and not reverted. The fact you reverted without comment on any of the talk pages shows you're just trying to push your POV and are disrupting the article. John Smith's 17:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

That vote was on whether or not to adopt an official policy to use BCE/CE. There is no policy against its use. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 17:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I never said there was a policy against its use. I said that some people tried to get BC/AD labelled "POV" and have it replaced by BCE/CE. The community has rejected the argument that BC/AD is POV and cannot be used in non-Christian articles. Just accept that and move on. John Smith's 17:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggest an article content request for comment to settle the issue. You say to-may-toe and I say to-mah-toe... Durova 17:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how that will change anything. I've tried discussing the matter with PHG - he keeps repeating his justification. Hong won't even take part in the talk page discussions. However I will start one if the other users agree to stop reverting. John Smith's 17:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, that's really helpful. Now El:C is parroting this nonsense about BC/AD and reverting too. Does anyone take notice of wikipedia guidelines and community votes, or is it just a case of people paying attention when it suits them? I would have thought an admin would try to help resolve matters, rather than pouring petrol on the fire. John Smith's 18:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

As I told John Smith, after he claimed that my reason "is not valid" because "the community had a vote," I hardly feel that this vote (of course, I ask, what vote?) invalidates my reason, not for History of Japan today, not for Mumbai two days ago, and elsewhere. I'm not sure why we need to have this obvious Christian dating symbol used in non-Christian entries. Maybe John Smith would like trying changing BCE to BC in the Israel entry. Let's see what consensus, not "vote," emerges after that. El_C 18:31, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to change anything on the Israel page, am I? In fact I am not trying to change the page in question, I am trying to restore the version that I made consistent. It is people like PHG, Hong and you that are trying to change the date entries.

On the Mumbai article you claimed that the general consensus is to use BC for Christian-related subjects (populations, countries, cities, ideas) and BCE for the rest of the world/'s history. Yet there is no general consensus - this is clearly outlined by the vote I mentioned that took place here. How can you have consensus when a majority disagree with what you allege?! So your justifications are wrong. John Smith's 18:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that is consensus, last time I checked. This is a secular encyclopedia, not a Christian encyclopedia. Secondly, this is a content dispute, clearly not everyone agrees with your (John Smith's) assertions, and so you should take it to dispute resolution as Durova has already advised you. Thirdly, your incivility to El C hardly helps your case or your standing in the wikipedia community ('parroting this nonsense' is quite rude.) Suggest you move along now. KillerChihuahua 18:59, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Enough with a vote from May 2005, it's now August 2007. As I said, from having a watchlist with close to 25,000 pages, the trend seems to be increasingly for non-Christian entries to be dated as BCE and Christian-related ones as BC. There's also the (largely pro-BC/AD) trend to keep whatever the original was (and I used BC/AD in many of the articles I authored, about non-Christian populations, incidentally; mainly as I don't really care). But I see the amount of energy, and sheer edits, that the issue still takes. Mainly, there should not be edit warring over it, that's be the bottom line. El_C 19:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, sorry for being a tad rude, El C. However, if you don't want there to be an edit-war you could set an example and not revert the page again. Cheers, John Smith's 19:10, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem. We do not let one-edit-only ips have their way in this project, sorry. El_C 19:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

That's fine - I agree with you. I was concerned you were entering the wider confrontation. John Smith's 19:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Can someone sprotect that article? There are several one-edit-only ips revert warring. El_C 19:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Semiprotected for 1 week. MastCell 19:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

14th August

Ok, this is getting silly. Both User:HongQiGong and User:KillerChihuahua are wikistalking me at History of the Americas. Can someone please get the wikistalkers off my back? It's bad enough when a user does it - Hong tried to allege last night he only knew about my edits on History of Japan because of the check-user report he ran, but I edited the page long after he filed that. But I honestly don't feel secure if an administrator is going to stalk me too. John Smith's 15:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps if you confined yourself to the debates, now spread across several pages, and stopped mass editing articles to your preferred dating system, no one would have to revert your contentious and divisive edits. Also, please stop canvassing for support. KillerChihuahua 15:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I was not "mass-reverting" - I made the article in question consistent. Also I don't know why it's wrong for me to make an article consistent, but it's ok for someone like you or Hong to revert the whole thing. That seems far more divisive than what I did on the History of the Americas page.

As I explained on your talk page I asked a few people who've worked on Japanese articles if they had any thoughts - that was it. I was not canvassing for support. John Smith's 15:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, thank you. This is all about one issue. If I was wikistalking, I would be reverting his edits that are unrelated to the current content dispute. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

What can I say - I'll credit you with subtlety. John Smith's 15:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua, can you please stop wikistalking me! You're now reverting my edits on Chola Dynasty. As anyone can clearly see, Æthelwold's version here had inconsistent terms. I made them consistent using the earliest non-stub version as a template that used the terms - it is you that are mass reverting.

Can someone please take him in line. It is ridiculous for me to have my edits rolled back when I'm making inconsistent articles consistent. John Smith's 15:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Given that the discussion on Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (China-related articles) has not concluded, but is currently strongly in favor of the date format which you oppose, I can only suggest again that rather than trying to do an end-run around this, you confine your efforts to the debates you started and cease your personal campaign to change articles to your preferred format. KillerChihuahua 16:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

That is not relevant, given I am not editing China-related articles - the China Project can't impose guidelines on the whole community. Where terms are inconsistent in an article it is perfectly acceptable to make them consistent using the first major contribution/non-stub as a basis. You seem to think it's ok to wikistalk someone because you disagree with their edits - but it isn't. John Smith's 16:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Note Hong has now joined in the wikistalking on Chola Dynasty here. That now makes it two articles for both users. When does it "officially" become wikistalking? Three? Four? John Smith's 16:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Note 2 Hong has now wikistalked me on:

• Xia Dynasty
• Shang Dynasty
• Sino-Roman relations
• Indus Valley Civilization

That makes it six articles for him. John Smith's 16:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I think much of the dispute started at Talk:Jesus. It almost seems like John Smith's is the only one who wants to see his edits upheld as much as he does. Then he spread the dispute over to Chinese history-related articles by editing those articles to his preference, and then he proceeded to also edit articles to his preference across a number of other articles. The dispute is also being discussed in Talk:History of Japan. I am now fixing his edits. I think something needs to be done to stop John Smith's campaigning. It's very disruptive. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:14, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikistalking? ROFLMAO. Pushing POV across several articles indicates a need to make certain it doesn't happen everywhere. It's hysterical when an editor, who's been shown to push a certain POV, whines about wikistalking, just to throw off the scent. Well, now I'm watching you too John Smith. I guess I'll be accused soon. I don't actually care, because it's so funny. You've made my day. Accusing KC, a well-known administrator on this project, of wikistalking is like accusing me of believing in the myth of Jesus. Never going to happen. OrangeMarlin 16:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:PORNBIO speedy noms

Just an FYI, I noticed Nasmformyzombie (talk · contribs) tagged quite a few articles on pornographich actresses for speedy deletion. I've not reviewed them, but the one I did look at wasn't a speedy because the article made a claim per WP:PORNBIO, so anyone clearing out CAT:CSD may want to pay attention to these. I imagine some of them are legit speedies, but they may not all be.--Isotope23 19:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind...AnonEMouse (talk · contribs) is removing the CSD tags, which I take to be a decline of the speedy.--Isotope23 19:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Made a comment on the user's talk page, after which he stopped (before the AN notice). I'm reverting about 8/10. There are some without assertions, but many have awards, etc. Since they're reasonably good faith noms, not vandalism, just edits by someone who didn't understand WP:CSD#A7, I theoretically should be using edit, rather than rollback, but since there are about a hundred of them, every click counts, and I hope to be forgiven that. --AnonEMouse 20:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

block user?

User:Din&tony has been active since July 13, 2007, but has only made a long series of nonsense edits to his/her own talk page. Not vandalism, per-se, but perhaps a misuse of Misplaced Pages. - Special-T 20:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

A closer look indicates that the talk page is being used as a message board. - Special-T 20:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Er... I suppose full protection of the page would stop them (after the appropriate warnings, of course) there but that wouldn't stop them creating another account and doing the same again. Anybody have any idea what they are talking about? Anyway, I will stick a warning on the page and see what transpires. LessHeard vanU 20:41, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Malcolm has speedy deleted the page, although I note that it was previously deleted on 13 July. I wonder if protection is going to be needed? LessHeard vanU 20:44, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Could someone please salt this user talkpage - I have now deleted this twice this evening. Thanks. LessHeard vanU 21:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

 Done - Alison ☺ 21:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. LessHeard vanU 21:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Enciclopedia DG

A teenager (which by the wa got indef blocked for persisten copyvio uploading on commons earlier this year) setup his mediawiki installation at http://es-enciclopediadg.newsit.es/ (well, not really well setup), and then proceeds to create an article about his website: Encyclopedia DG.

Enciclopedia DG or Encyclopedia DG is a Spanish language wiki encyclopedia, released under the GFDL founded by Diego Grez. It uses the MediaWiki software.

The article and site are complete vanity and has been deleted before:

   * 20:34, 13 August 2007 Drini (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Enciclopedia DG" (spam) (Restore)
   * 21:33, 6 December 2006 Eagle 101 (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Enciclopedia DG" (Per Criteria for Speedy Deletion, A7) (Restore)

Just letting you know, as the kid will probably recreate his promotional article, he even compared it to major forks like Enciclopedia Libre or Citizendium editing the "Misplaced Pages history" tempalte at no matter that his site is much much more trivial and irrelevant than those selected there. As I said, just letting you know guys. -- drini 20:47, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

kind of hard to add spam when the target got salted ;) Spartaz 21:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Could someone have a look please

I am near 3RR so I can't edit Eliseo Soriano which some editors seem determine to sanitise and smother with spam. User:Petersantos made 8 edits on Aug 14, all to the Soriano article. User:Vivinkid has made 26 edits to Wiki, 25 to Soriano on Aug 13 and 14. New User:200.247.144.160 has made only one edit to Wiki, to Soriano on Aug 14. New User:201.31.19.175 has made only one edit to Wiki, to Soriano on Aug 13. Moriori 00:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

indefinite block; User:Anonimu's harrasment, edit wars again, sockpuppetry

Removed edit by abusive puppeteer Bonaparte (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) pasted from an open proxy with false user signature. --Irpen 08:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

BOT2008BOT (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) blocked as a single-purpose sock used to solicit a block. No comment on Anonimu's actions. ˉˉ╦╩ 15:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

indefinite block

Just want to add that I support the indefinite block of this single purpose account.--Jersey Devil 23:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I also support an indefinite block of Anonimu, 100% and more. —  $PЯINGεrαgђ  23:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Best give Anonimu another block, he's just not getting it. reverting good faith edits as vandalistic, calling a non-banned editor banned, pot calling kettle black, and what appears to be OWNership on Nicolae Ceauşescu (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I don't think there'd be any loss in an indef-block, though. Will 23:56, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I meant the SPA that reported this. With regards to the account being reported (User:Anonimu) I haven't seen any change in his behavior whatsoever. Continued edit warring, false "rv vandal" edit summaries, ownership of articles, etc... I support any action any admin wants to take including an indefinite block if that is deemed necessary.--Jersey Devil 00:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If it's not an indefinite block, I don't support it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Springeragh (talk • contribs)

Removed edit by abusive puppeteer Bonaparte (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) done through an open proxy. --Irpen 08:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

A roster of editors whose activities in the project revolve around Transnistria, after several ArbCom hearings of the case, seek their main opponent to be blocked. That the thread was started by an indef banned account and "augmented" by an IP adds nothing to their argument. Seriously, this page does not belong to dispute resolution procedures. --Ghirla 08:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: the complaint was posted by long since permabanned Bonaparte (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) through an open proxy with the false signature. I believe this settles the issue and ends the thread. --Irpen 08:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

A very useful tool

Worth checking out and saving. Durova 04:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Did we have to link to the blog :P. In any case, interesting tool. —— Eagle101 04:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Eh, now that I read the blog, its good, I'm just jumpy around blogs. Hopefully some people will be able to make use of this, though the data seems to be from a database dump, so it is by no means live data. —— Eagle101 05:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Anyone want to tweak the software? I've been trying to get in touch with Virgil for days. The basic value of this tool is incredibly useful. Durova 05:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Awesome! I wish this had been available a long time ago. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:14, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I was just glad to learn that, whilst they're not too certain of where UBL might be, the CIA are quite knowledgable about a good bit, including how properly to feed domestic goats. Joe 06:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It also seems the CIA and I have the same sense of humour. :-D daveh4h 14:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

BJAODN deletions

After several months since the last time this was broached, and with little progress made, I have deleted BJAODN and its various subpages. Per WP:DENY, its mere presence promotes slander, copyright violation, spamming, and just plain old vandalism. As Jeffrey O. Gustafson brought up here it is also a violation of GFDL. Since Jeff's initial deletion there has been little to no progress in attributing edits copied to BJAODN. As such it is time for this content to go. Are we Misplaced Pages or Uncyclopedia? I'm certainly hoping its the former. Lets act like it.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 09:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll miss BJAODN, but sadly it's true. MessedRocker (talk) 09:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, for the hell of it, DON'T WHEEL WAR. MessedRocker (talk) 09:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

We need to lead by example when it comes to attributing material. Wikipedians are all too quick to complain when some site doesn't give the necessary attribution, but when things like BJAODN exist on Misplaced Pages with no attribution, how can we expect to be taken seriously in our requests for attribution. It think it really does have to go this time. Nick 09:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

BJAODN violated the GFDL about as much as answers.com does. It wasn't very funny, so I won't miss it, but I think it's a silly place to start enforcing the GFDL (why didn't we use a more suitable license?) Kusma (talk) 09:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

There are so many issues regarding BJAODN... many people find it humorless (I could care less...), the GFDL issues (yes, there are GFDL issues), the copyright flaunting, the potential SPAM and attacks, the fact that they were restored (via wheel war) in defiance of community discussions going on at the time... there are so many reasons why this stuff shouldn't exist (based on both policy, and common sense and dignity), and so few why it should. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 09:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

True, but on a lot of pages it says the pages it comes from (where it is available in edit history), and at least that material should be kept. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 09:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

In far too many cases the content comes from deleted pages or histories available only to administrators with far too much to do, or long since lost from the database. The last deletion and restoration was a serious shot off the bow to say, "fix this, quickly, and correctly." The many people clamoring to get the job done, claiming it could be done, did not do it (nor could they). More than three months and no change. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 09:49, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• I fully agree with the above. People were given a chance to fix things, and (perhaps unsurprisingly) they did not. Aside from that, we have plenty of humor pages that are actually funny, as opposed to the mediocrity that is BJAODN. >Radiant< 10:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• Erm, I don't think this is a speedy. Shouldn't we have an MfD debate over it? Melsaran 11:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

  I believe the pages were only restored on the understanding that the histories would be corrected, something that wasn't done. It's regrettable but unless a number of administrators are willing to undelete articles to find histories and such, there's really no way forward. Nick 12:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• Another MFD? Why waste the time of everyone when no consensus will occur? Straight deletion of this crap is worth it. — Moe ε 12:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Turns out there were 31 redirects to that. My favourite Misplaced Pages:Firehose of crap. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 12:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I heavily endorse Alkivar's actions. ^demon 13:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree with deletion. We have plenty of jokes within articles. One of the dirtiest can be found here. - Jehochman 13:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

If wikipedia was a small community it could have worked probably, but with the ever increasing number of users (and thus vandals), it seemed inevitable that it would get more and more disorganised. Also even though wikipedia is not censored there is no reason to tolerate for example people’s animal sex stories, like I had seen there. 204.128.192.8 14:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Oops that was me who left that message above, but my login had expired. I see there is a fair bit of vandalism from that IP address. It’s used by the Walt Disney Corporation employees :p Jackaranga 14:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Endorse too. Horribly unencyclopedic. There are plenty of places on the Internet for that stuff. If you want something encyclopedic, there are articles like World's funniest joke and Category:Jokes --Dweller 14:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Thou shalt fight vandalism - fight, I say! (Bureauracy watch)

I don't think I can really say anything here, but can someone please troutwhack some sense into various discussions at Misplaced Pages talk:Counter-Vandalism Unit? We now have a well-supported proposal here, here, and here, to set up some sort of elite cabal force of superpowered vandal emergency response team. This would appear to me to be bureaucratic process-creep - FFS, it's only reverting a page. Also, proposals to limit CVU membership to people to a certain amount of reverts, and as part of the above, some proposal to set up vandal-fighting "shifts". IMO we do not want a private army. This would appear to be what we're getting. BTW, where's the evidence current RCP practice is failing? Moreschi 13:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

So basically we've gone from one extreme to another? Unbelievable. The things I'm seeing in User:Titoxd/Sandbox/CVU FR task force are actually quite alarming. OK - people! Newflash: RC patrolling is not saving lives! Sit around with recent changes open, or Lupin's recent changes feed, exert some clue, whack some idiots, report to AIV, lather, rinse, repeat. Why, oh why, do we require shifts, limited access to tools, even more layering... a 14 year old who knows how to find their monobook can install Twinkle. Please take a step back and read it through fresh eyes, you may realise how silly it all sounds. ~ Riana ⁂ 14:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I can feel Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Counter-Vandalism Unit (fifth nomination) rising up within me. — Moe ε 14:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Tried MfD coupla days ago: didn't work. Since then, it appears the CVU has spiralled from being useless to being actually harmful - at least potentially. Someone please inject clue, with trouts if need be. Moreschi 14:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This actually seems to be a sensible idea: It doesn't need to be as bureaucratic as it seems to be, but having a template of people who may be doing something else but who can help with vandalism if asked and setting up a channel for collaboration would be conducive to the security of the encyclopedia. We'd not have users tripping over one another in the wee hours in the morning, but we'd still be able to deal with vandalbots. --ST47Talk·Desk 14:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not that template so much. See the comment:

Well why not have CVU First Responders. When I say this I mean a established task force not just the Vandal Fighters who we typically assume to be in the front lines. My suggestion would include a task force where you would agree to be available for a certain part of the day to fight a sudden outbreak of massive vandalism. We could have 2 hour shifts were you could sign up to be involved in one of the shifts. To inform you when it was your time perhaps we could create a bot to leave messages on the users talk pages when there shift began.

This has WP:CREEP written all over it. Glorifying the process of reverting isn't needed. — Moe ε 14:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Shifts and bots do seem a little over the top, but it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to generate a list of available users. Is there actually an issue here that requires the attention of all administrators? --ST47Talk·Desk 14:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Savoie

I've just given this user a block, but the more I read of his edit record, the more concerned I am. My block was for incivility and racism, but a perusal leaves me thinking he's a very disruptive user. I welcome comment. --Dweller 14:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Endorse block, endorse keeping an eye on him. I'm not sure if his past history (I didn't go too far) indicates a need for a bigger block yet. --Golbez 15:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Arrgh, second edit has a summary instructing others not to "get rid of" the page created, or Savoie would "be furious". I agree with the concern, this looks like a huge issue. OTOH, this is his/her first block. Try to keep an eye after block expires, and suggest reading up on NPA, CIVIL, NPOV, OWN, etc. It is possible Misplaced Pages will be a learning experience for her/him and s/he'll become a civil contributor. If not, warn, block, repeat until done. Good luck. KillerChihuahua 16:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

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