Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Milomedes (talk | contribs) at 23:42, 27 September 2007 (→It was a deletion debate: The first paragraph contains a statement of principle for the manifesto). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

There is a discussion on the archiving of this page at Misplaced Pages talk:Spoiler/Archiving debate

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Disputed guideline message box

Since there is clearly a dispute in progress about the content of the guideline, the guideline page needs to announce that, just like any other page that has disputed content.

Otherwise, editors viewing the guideline will naturally assume it is stable and has consensus. It is not stable and does not have consensus, as can be seen by looking at the recent edit history.

How can it not be a dispute to have continual removing, re-adding, and changing a significant rule or definition within the guideline, by multiple editors, over a couple weeks?

If that's not worthy of a note at the top that there is a dispute about the content, then how much dispute would be needed for such a disputed-content notification to be used?

Until the guideline does not have significant dispute in progress, it is appropriate to inform readers of the guideline that the version they are looking at could be different in five minutes, so they can consider that when reading it.

I'm not going to revert it again myself and re-add the message box at this time, but I suggest that anyone who agrees there is a dispute in progress regarding this guideline is welcome to re-add the message box. --Parsifal _Hello 17:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Good luck. It took weeks to add it last time. You can expect the usual ever-changing definitions of consensus from Tony. His table above suggests that edit warring is a part of today's definition, although should you actually edit war, he'll seek to have you punished.--Nydas 17:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Nobody suggested edit warring. What Marc suggested yesterday was "Rather than beating their heads against a wall on this talk page, suppose the pro-tag faction actually chooses a few representative articles and adds spoiler tags in the manner that they believe is correct, then let us all know when they're done. Then we'd actually have something concrete to discuss." Why not try it? --Tony Sidaway 17:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any confidence that you won't have me punished for adding them.--Nydas 06:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

You know very well that nobody can be "punished" for placing a spoiler tag on an article, but it clearly suits you to use this excuse. I suspect that you will not do so because you wish to continue making false accusations and nasty insinuations. We call that trolling. --Tony Sidaway 14:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

A troll "is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community....with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response" (see Troll (Internet)). At this point, I'm reasonably persuaded that Nydas and Milo are indeed trolls. I don't apply that label indiscriminately to the whole pro-spoiler-tag set, but I think it clearly applies to them.

The simple suggestion was to find five articles, and illustrate how he thought spoiler tags ought to be used. Nydas refuses. If you can't find five examples—or, if that's too onerous, three examples—then why all the blustering and acrimony?

If Nydas really felt that adopting the suggestion would invite "punishment" — not that there's any rational basis for that fear — he could make a proposal in his user space. Of course, maybe Nydas has other reasons for refusing, such as: 1) It requires effort; 2) It requires thought; 3) It's difficult; 4) Trolling is more fun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marc Shepherd (talk • contribs) 16:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

"I'm reasonably persuaded that Nydas and Milo are indeed trolls." This is an outright WP:NPA personal attack — delete those remarks from this page.

In the future keep such PA persuasions to yourself. An apology by you to me and Nydas would also be appropriate.

Worse still, you are completely wrong in both the formal sense (the policy definition of trolling at Misplaced Pages failed) and in the subjective sense (WP:Troll essay: "vocal critics of Misplaced Pages structures and processes are not trolls").

Beware. Following Tony's lead is getting you into trouble. His irresponsible accusations of trolling behavior have no basis, because Nydas and I are completely sincere in making well-reasoned and philosophically-based criticisms.

My counter-charge against Tony's baseless trolling accusations is that they have the effect of distracting the discussion and the editing of the guide, and most especially, any significant progress toward compromise. Over a period of months his rigid May 2007 position has lost ground millimeter by millimeter, as the fallacies of the anti-spoiler-tag position, and the correctnesses of the pro-spoiler-tag position have emerged. Eventually there will be a bone fide compromise, and ultimately he will be unable to prevent it.

"maybe Nydas has other reasons for refusing, such as: 1) It requires effort; 2) It requires thought; 3) It's difficult; 4) Trolling is more fun." These are uncivil implications against Nydas' character, implying that if he doesn't do what you want, he's 1) lazy, 2) stupid, 3) lazy again, 4) and insincere. My experience of Nydas is that he is hard working, brilliantly educated†, and utterly sincere in his opposition to established injustice. Shame on you for implying otherwise — you should apologize to Nydas. († How much did YOU know about the 1936 Soviet Constitution before he pointed it out?) Milo 03:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There's more than you two in the anti-spoiler camp. We have half a dozen admins who despise spoiler tags, treating it as worse than vandalism. If David Gerard, Phil Sandifer or Guy decides to ban me for being a troll, or disruptive, or 'silly', or whatever, will you stand up for me?--Nydas 17:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Again you make a trollish accusation, falsely implying that David Gerard, JzG, and Phil Sandifer are amongst "half a dozen" administrators who "treat worse than vandalism" and implying that they might ban you "for being a troll, or disruptive, or 'silly'" if you edit an article to put a spoiler tag into it. This is false. Stop hiding behind false accusations. --Tony Sidaway 18:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

At root, trolling is insincere. If Nydas believes it, it's not trolling, period. You can claim he is wrong, or exaggerating, but you can't claim his sincere accusation is trollish.

Nydas is describing systemic bias, in which the elements of corruption are spread around so thinly that, usually, they cannot be individually detected or proved. I, too, believe there is systemic bias. The rare tipping of the hand during the AWB investigation scandal was a convincer for me and other editors.

The reports of bans, chilling, and almost certain reversions we've gotten here, despite your claims that everyone deserved what they got, reasonably suggest an abundance of caution in not becoming involved in field experiments. My position is that the WP:Spoiler guide has to change first. Milo 03:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

(Copied from #Discussion)
Viriditas wrote: "Milo, check out WP:TROLL. Whether you like it or not, you do have a tendency to come off as "trollish". Many of your comments on this talk page can be construed as "deliberately inflammatory", however this doesn't make you an outright troll. The essay in question states that "people who passionately believe in what they are writing also sometimes behave in a way that may make them appear to be a troll" so I suggest that editors give you the benefit of the doubt until they have reason to believe otherwise. —Viriditas 04:33, 22 September 2007"

I see that you don't take seriously your own policy of not commenting on editors. On only your second post here you have managed to make a bad situation worse. Marc Shepard, a young inexperienced editor, committed an outright official policy violation of WP:NPA against two long-time posters . You just sent a message from which he can infer that it's ok to do that.
He's a newb, you're not. You should have known better, but apparently you didn't research before commenting. You wrote "Milo, check out WP:TROLL" – had you researched this incident, you should have seen that I've already quoted from WP:Troll. (Milo (03:54) wrote: (WP:Troll essay: "vocal critics of Misplaced Pages structures and processes are not trolls") "). Marc's proper response is to delete the PA. He hasn't done that yet. If you really want to help, tell him to do that. If you aren't willing to help promote respect for WP:NPA policy, please depart this thread. Milo 15:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Whack-a-mole

If a small group of editors plays whack-a-mole with spoiler tags long enough, eventually the moles will start keeping their heads down. This is not evidence of "consensus". (Also, Tony, could we not label those we disagree with as "trolls"? I'd like to keep the discussion civil. Thanks!) --Jere7my 20:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the evidence I gave earlier. This isn't "a small group", it's Misplaced Pages consensus. Editors you and I have never heard of are applying the guideline and doing so with success, even on articles about very recently released high-grossing films. I don't think it's inappropriate to describe as trolling the behavior of those who persistently claim that this guideline is in dispute when every reliable statistical pointer we have shows that it's been working successfully for months.

In the end, one has to say of these counter-arguments against the evidence for consensus: "chilling effects", "whack-a-mole", "Misplaced Pages admins throwing their weight around" and so on that they lack evidential power. They amount to the statement: "I believe that there is no consensus for this guideline, but there are special circumstances that prevent it from manifesting." In other words, special pleading. --Tony Sidaway 21:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

By that argument, wouldn't the wild prevalence of spoiler tags that existed prior to May have been evidence of consensus for widespread spoiler tags? That was working "successfully" for years! How did they get there, if not through consensus editing? It's my feeling that the vast majority of editors are willing to go with the flow here, whatever the flow happens to be. Previously, pro-spoiler folks had a stick; now, anti-spoiler folks have a stick. Most editors without a dog in this race seem to think the whole spoiler debate is an unfortunate quagmire. --Jere7my 23:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

They got there because nobody thought about it. Now we've thought about it. That guideline, and the extent of spoiler tags in articles, reflect that rethink.

You say "By that argument, wouldn't the wild prevalence of spoiler tags that existed prior to May have been evidence of consensus for widespread spoiler tags?" No, we've already covered this. From well over one million articles, hundreds of thousands of which must have been on fictional subjects, only 45,000 or so contained spoiler tags or spoiler warnings of any kind. The Raven, Poe's great narrative poem, had no spoiler tag on May 15 . We don't know how many others.

See User:Tony_Sidaway/exclusion-lists/spoiler for a list of apparently legitimate uses of the word "spoiler" in Misplaced Pages articles--there are about 1300 of them, mostly related to aviation, automotive aerodynamics or politics ("spoiler" candidates). Others come from comics (The Spoiler was a DC comics character) or wrestling (The Spoiler was also the name of a wrestler).

What has changed, really, is the culture. There are people who are now aware that if they don't keep a look out for spoiler tags we'll end up with spoiler warnings on the likes of Romeo and Juliet, Pygmalion, Help!, and even biographies of real people like Roger Bacon. So we watch, and edit accordingly. --Tony Sidaway 00:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Your claim that there must be hundreds of thousands of other fiction articles is incorrect. Take away stubs without any spoilers, and 45,000 is about right. The spoiler tag in Roger Bacon was over the fictional portrayal section, it's misleading not to mention that (and a misleading example anyway).--Nydas 06:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:AGF. You need to stop calling people who disagree trolls. I saw you doing it recently over in WP:BLP and related articles and people told you that it was inappropriate (and extreme) there too. You've also been quick to throw out that term in the past, so please take the suggestion of many people telling you to WP:AGF. You are also applying a double standard. You are unwilling to accept explanations regarding the pro-spoiler side and consensus on the basis of a lack of large amounts of explicit declaration of their views, but just now you're willing to accept that explanation that "no one really thought about it"--which either requires reading minds, or acknowledging that things can be inferred without this unreasonably high standard of many explicit declarations of viewpoints. You need to stick with a consistent standard. You can't reasonably expect people to make as big of a deal out of a lesser guideline compared to major policies. The standard all over the internet (as per searches presented before) is to use spoiler warnings, so it's clear that internet users in general (the primary Misplaced Pages audience) wants them. Before a small minority removed many spoiler warnings , we had many of them even on Misplaced Pages. There is clear, strong evidence that people support the way things previously were. It is absurd to suggest that people are trolling. -Nathan J. Yoder 08:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

By the jargon AGF I think you mean Assume good faith. Read and try to understand that policy. In particular, read the lead where we see "bad faith can include...playing games with policies". I am not the only person to have expressed some dismay at the continual barrage of personal attacks that has characterized the involvement of certain parties in this debate, the futile attempts to involve those they disagree with in arbitration, and the false accusations of collusion and connivance to subvert policy. Now in the face of overwhelming evidence of consensus for the guideline over the past three months or so, we've got people trying to stick a silly "disputed" tag onto it. That's trolling, and we should describe it as trolling. --Tony Sidaway 13:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Fascinating, since you're MAKING half of them. Stop making personal attacks before you start trying to point fingers. Kuronue | Talk 21:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm stopping in briefly from a break, so it may be a while before I reply again. You seem to be one of the biggest purveyors of insult in this discussion. Strangely, most of these people suggesting that you're out of line have never filed any arbitration at all against anyone or anything. You've been instructed in two seperate talk pages on two unrelated issues that your accusations of trolling are inappropriate and I strongly suggest you take that suggestion to heart. You're assuming that they're intending to "play games with policies" just because a disputed tag was put up--that's the entirety of your evidence and even you know that it's very weak. In fact, I'm beginning to think that you're acting in bad faith (and perhaps have a little troll side too you, especially considering your history), since you persistently ignoring unrelated people in discussions suggesting that your accusations are neither correct, nor even remotely obvious. When you're ready to either present evidence that putting a disputed tag up when there's a dispute on the talk page is necessarily evidence of bad faith and trolling, be my guest. Until then, I suggest you stop violating policies and personally attacking people. -Nathan J. Yoder 03:13, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Rewrite

Misplaced Pages does not use spoiler warnings any more. I have rewritten the guideline to reflect this. Kusma (talk) 12:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of WP:Point... Milo 12:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

What does writing a descriptive guideline have to do with WP:POINT? I am sorry but I don't understand you. Kusma (talk) 13:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, now that I think about it, WP:Bold and WP:Point aren't so easy to distinguish. Milo 13:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Please read, and try to understand, the guideline known as wikipedia:Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point, aka WP:POINT. It refers to people making edits they do not believe are correct in order to illustrate a perceived problem with Misplaced Pages policy. Kusma clearly does think that it is correct to avoid using spoiler tags. His edit was unorthodox but not disruptive. --Tony Sidaway 13:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have been reverted. The guideline now again reads like Misplaced Pages does have warnings for spoilers in "unexpected places", although this is not true. The only warnings that currently exist are notices that cover the whole article as in Sandworms of Dune and Sōsuke Aizen. Spoiler warnings elsewhere do not seem to persist.

In general, I think that the Harry Potter 7 release was a good test for the use of {{current fiction}} instead of {{spoiler}} - people used the current fiction tag as a warning for a little more than a month after the release, and now there is little demand for their reintroduction (the exact amount of time that fiction stays "current" is, of course, debatable, as I admitted in my bold edit). If a high-profile example like Harry Potter can be covered here without spoiler warnings, perhaps we do not need them anywhere anymore. Kusma (talk) 13:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

You are entirely correct that that is the current de facto situation—as the pro-tag partisans themselves have often pointed out. If it persists that way for a while, it will probably be appropriate to admit that the current guideline is a sham, and replace it with something resembling your draft.

However, we're not yet at that point. If the current guideline were actually followed, I think there would be other articles warranting spoiler tags. The problem is that people don't follow the guideline. They just slap the warning on the entire article, or on the entire plot. The addition of the tag is quickly reverted, and usually it never comes back again. Marc Shepherd 13:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

That in turn suggests to me that most people don't feel strongly enough about the matter to engage in discussion over placement on the talk page. --Tony Sidaway 14:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Or that most people have better senses of self-preservation than we do. :P Not everyone wants to jump into a morass, however passionately they feel. I myself am only back in this discussion against my better judgment, and I feel quite strongly indeed! It's my prediction that Misplaced Pages won't achieve spoiler equilibrium until some months after this guideline is settled and the flames have died down, because a lot of people are staying very gingerly away. --Jere7my 18:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to say that Kusma seems to be clearly in violation of WP:POINT to me, but that's a side issue as far as I am concerned. His edit is already gone and unlikely to win consensus. What I am here to object to today is the notion that a decreasing number of tags is evidence of some sort of consensus against them. More likely, the fact that a group of administrators (who are less likely to be opposed) went around deleting tags, in addition to the fact that the pro-spoiler editors have decided (sometimes at the tip of a sword, by the way) to settle the issue here before adding spoilers back, has resulted in fewer tags. No surprise there. But also, no evidence of consensus. Better reasoning, please! Postmodern Beatnik 20:56, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Template:Current fiction

User:Wandering Ghost writes :

Now, blanket labelling a whole article by pointing out that it's current fiction I feel removes utility for not much gain - most people searching wikipedia will probably have a rough idea that something is within the length of time of required for it to be 'current fiction', and they want _some_ information anyway. A blanket warning therefore just forces them to choose 'read this and maybe be spoiled, or don't read it' - which is absolutely no different from the choice they have on any other page, except it's in their face (in actuality, it would be more useful to have a blanket warning on _older_ works, such that 'this work is considered 'old fiction' and as such spoiler warnings are not included', since that would actually _warn_. I'm not advocating for that it, I'm just saying that would make more sense to me than the current fiction blanket). Targetted warnings let them know what sections can be read, which is what most people want.

However we do have some very positive feedback on the use of this tag. The tag was used on the article about the recently published Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, and was finally removed on 3 September as a result of a discussion on the talk page that decided to remove it forty-five days after the novel had been released. The period was felt to be "a nice, round number", "sounds good", and "pretty reasonable for the release of a book."

As I write, the template is transcluded by fifteen articles and its wording is as follows:

This article documents a recently released work of fiction.

It may contain detailed information on the characters, plot, and ending of the work of fiction it describes.

While it does have the disadvantage that it does not provide a targetted warning, so the reader is faced with the question of whether he goes ahead and reads it or not, I think experience has shown us that targetting of spoiler tags was (and remains) vanishingly rare on Misplaced Pages.

There is also the problem that individual thresholds for spoilers differ greatly. For some people, the revelation that there is an alien creature on board the Nostromo is a spoiler. For others, it will be the fact that one of the crew is an android who has orders to bring the alien back for study, and has been instructed to treat the crew as expendable. Still others will want to avoid discovering which, if any, of the crew survive. In practice we used to blanket the entire plot section, and to continue my example this was true of Alien (film) , although in practice the Lead section contained an untagged spoiler that crew member Ellen Ripley survives to become the central character of the sequels (which is fine--you would have had to be hiding in a cave for the past thirty years to avoid knowing of her strong association with the franchise).

So in practice template:current fiction doesn't really differ that much from template:spoiler, except that it makes Misplaced Pages's common practice more clear to the reader. The reader will notice that the warning is restricted to recent fiction, and that after a short time it is removed. He will thus not be misled as to the nature of Misplaced Pages, but will see it almost from the start as a serious encyclopedia, quite distinct from the fan sites and the like which do their best to hide the plot twists from readers. --Tony Sidaway 17:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

"targetting of spoiler tags was (and remains) vanishingly rare on Misplaced Pages." So what — you, the rest of the clique, and the vigil-antis of the current spoiler guide are seeking, reverting, chilling, and enforcing the defacto ban of spoiler notices. Since 40+% of WP editors want spoiler tags, you and I both know that the tags will slowly come back as soon as the spoiler guide allows them too. That's why you are struggling against the inevitable to prevent meaningful compromise. Your position is incorrect in a correctness-seeking environment; therefore it is philosophically corrupt; therefore you will fail to maintain it in the long run.

In fact, you have kept repeating this unpersuasive circular reasoning so often, that I'm hereby declaring it as one the standing fallacies of the anti-tag house of cards: the extinction=consensus fallacy. Milo 15:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If, as you claim, there is a large number of editors who completely disagree with this guideline, wouldn't they be coming to this guideline page to complain about it? Compare what happened when WP:ATT was begin discussed - a huge number of editors commented. But I don't see more and more editors coming here to complain. That's why I have started to back away from this discussion, because it seems to be coming to a natural end. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"If, as you claim, there is a large number of editors who completely disagree with this guideline," Strawman fallacy, I didn't say that. Milo 16:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You said 'Since 40+% of WP editors want spoiler tags, ...'. I don't see any evidence that these people want the tags badly enough to come here and talk about it. Most people seem to have accepted the new guideline after the RFC. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"Most people seem to have accepted the new guideline after the RFC." Most people still don't know one way or another - that's why it was a coup. Due process failure to notify is one of the more serious complaints of process abuse. IIRC, wiki-wide, there were only two total days of notice on the template itself, that the spoiler template was being MfD'ed or TfD'ed. And more process abuses were piled on after that. Most of the thousands of editors affected (some number up to 45,000) had no clue that their spoiler tags were about to be disappeared, or what to do about it after they did.

"I don't see any evidence that these people want ... to come here and talk about it." They don't know that there is anyplace to go to and talk about it. After being told the story of the May 2007 Spoiler Coup, an average editor with a serious pre-broadcast spoiler problem wrote: "I actually do remember when all across Misplaced Pages all of a sudden all the spoiler tags were gone for films and such, but I had no idea until now how or why it had happened."

"want the tags badly enough" Your use of "badly enough" reflects your key misunderstanding. Spoiler notices are a feature of middling importance with a moderate effect. Many people, say 40+%, get pleasure from narrative suspense in fiction as preserved by spoiler notices. If a bunch of blue meanies decide to take their pleasure away, the abused aren't going to take up cudgels and torches. Their loss is not unimportant to them, it's just not important enough for most of them to spend time arguing about it. However, if they knew that I was arguing on their behalf, most of them would approve. Milo 02:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Please, Tony, can you understand two things?:

1. People will not judge Misplaced Pages's accuracy by existence of SWs. This is simply stupid thing to do, whoever does that is stupid and deserves what he gets as a result.
2. This guideline always contained the rule that the SW shouldn't be in the plot section. Assuming most people here follow the rules and are not trying to do WP:POINT, then it is logically flawed to judge about their wishes from what they actually do to the articles. So any guess on what people actually want based on research how many people are adding SWs against this guideline (in most cases, obviously the SW goes to the plot section) is flawed because of this.

I wish you would understand, finally, after 4 months, at least these two logical fallacies you are making, so everyone could move on. Samohyl Jan 19:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Your comments are misplaced. Please try to base your criticisms on what I have said, and not something you just made up. --Tony Sidaway 19:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No, #1 refers to, I cite "He will thus not be misled as to the nature of Misplaced Pages, but will see it almost from the start as a serious encyclopedia, quite distinct from the fan sites". And #2 refers to section called "A brief and unscientific survey of spoiler tagging in the top grossing movies of 2007" and many similar remarks throughout. Don't play stupid. Either you agree with the two points I made or not. I want to know where are you standing now. Samohyl Jan 22:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I imagined that you're misread the first statement you quoted, and you've confirmed it. I said nothing about accuracy, rather it was about tone. Since you've falsely accused me of "playing stupid" I don't think I need add any more. Please re-read and try to understand what I have written. --Tony Sidaway 22:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Tony that the {{current fiction}} on the Harry Potter articles worked very well, and its removal was done without the usual anti-tag suspects here involving themselves. A warning on the entire article instead of individual sections, while not useful to those who want some special part of the information only, helps to avoid structuting the article around spoiler concerns. I think we should move away from the idea that individual plot details should be tagged to this type of courtesy notice for people who have forgotten that an encyclopedia should give all details. There seems to be far less argument about {{current fiction}} than about {{spoiler}}. Kusma (talk) 08:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"this type of courtesy notice" This is a slight misunderstanding. Spoiler and "current fiction" are not courtesy notices. They are content utility notices, like the disambiguation notice and the Table of contents box.

"we should move away from the idea that individual plot details should be tagged ... for people who have forgotten that an encyclopedia should give all details." This is a red herring. AFAIK, both pro-taggers and anti-taggers agree that this encyclopedia should give all details. Therefore "should give all details" has no logical debate relationship to whether or not to tag individual plot details with spoiler notices. Milo 15:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I do view {{current fiction}} as a courtesy notice. It is completely redundant to the content disclaimer but I think we should let it stand in some articles for a while, it seems to make some people happy and takes care of most of the demand for spoiler tagging. Kusma (talk) 15:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You are personally welcome to view it as a courtesy, but as a Misplaced Pages policy precedent, it is a tar pit trap. What is a courtesy in one culture is too frequently offensive in another. It also opens the door to slippery-slope demands for "courtesy" amounting to censorship by fundamentalists. If spoiler tags are properly understood as just another content utility notice, it completely avoids the courtesy trap. Yet the reader is left with unspoken good feelings just as though a formal courtesy had been extended.

Since spoiler notices are content notices, the disclaimer policy does not apply. Disclaimers only apply to dangers, and here there is none. Therefore, reference to disclaimers should be completely removed from the guide. Milo 02:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Fortunately Misplaced Pages policy does not operate by precedent, and consensus can change. But anyway, if using courtesy is a trap, it is easy to avoid: as you say there is no danger in spoilers, so we don't need any spoiler warnings. Kusma (talk) 13:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

(reset)

"Misplaced Pages policy does not operate by precedent" Tell that to Marc - he's arguing just the opposite (using other equivalent language) that WP can't/shouldn't do this or that spoiler tagwise, without some off-WP precedent. It's been my experience that when debaters do that – make opposite arguments toward the same general position – they are probably both extremists and probably both wrong. I can tell you it gives me the feeling of winning the debate in well-centered principle. In practice, like all other organizations, Misplaced Pages policy ultimately operates by politics which are some pastiche of principle.

"no danger in spoilers, so we don't need any spoiler warnings" They certainly should not be called by that falsely-hyperbolic name in a correctness-seeking environment. However, that's another red herring, because the need for correctly named spoiler notices is logically unrelated to courtesy, danger or lack of them. They are just another content utility notice.

There is also no need for utility disambiguation content notices, or for that matter a utility Table of Contents notice box. They are utilities because one can get information from the article without them. However, having these utilities makes it faster and easier to get and avoid certain kinds of information. Despite the puffery here that WP should force readers to learn things they don't want to learn, in reality, readers routinely use the TOC to avoid information, like "History" if one only wants to know the "Current situation". Eliminating the Table of Contents or the disambigs would certainly force readers to learn much in which they have no interest, but that obviously isn't going to happen. There are no valid reasons to treat hidden spoiler notices any differently than disambiguation notices. With both writing and esthetics having been eliminated as valid anti-spoiler-tag reasons, only hidden agendas remain:

WP:IDontLikeIt, WP:DoItBecauseTheySaidSo, and worst of all,

WP:GetRidOfThoseYoungPeopleWhoDontWriteLikeMe.

Milo 03:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

How about WP:WhatTheHellIsMiloTalkingAboutANYWay? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 10:46, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

LOL! Sorry that you couldn't understand. The good news is that as a clique hierarchist fellow traveler you don't necessarily need to understand – you can just parrot your betters. Of course, if you ever tire of having "betters", you can become a Jeffersonian political freethinker. Milo 23:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Pending new draft

My proposed draft has received some support, enthusiastic or partial, from nearly everyone who has commented on it. I'd like to open this as a space for further comments; if there appears to be consensus that the new draft is strictly better than the current draft, even if you see particular problems with it, I'll replace the page tonight, after the draft has been up for 48 hours.

When commenting, consider that 1) the proposed draft is clearly cleaner and easier to follow than the current version; 2) it reads more like a style guide (i.e. a firm suggestion) than the current version; 3) it encourages editors to create clear section titles in preference to adding spoiler tags (i.e. "Tony-style" articles) — if wikiwide consensus is indeed against spoiler tags the guideline will allow them to continue to deproliferate — while offering some leeway to local editors; and 4) if we can come to a consensus we can all hang up our gloves and go home. ;) --Jere7my 18:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The draft has improved, in my opinion, since the previous version I read. It has a couple things that could be resolved once it's here, but in general it's fine with me. A few points:

• The lede should include the word "limited" somewhere, in case someone takes it as a license to insert the tags liberally.
• Every article should have sections; the bullet lower down that suggests otherwise is confusing. Articles that have so little content that they don't have section titles are best improved by expanding them.
• The section headers have names that make it hard to find things easily with the TOC.
• The draft mentions "local" editors; all editors have equal standing.

I'm sure these sorts of things can be resolved with normal discussion and editing if the draft is copied here. — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

All good suggestions. Thanks! I noticed the poor interaction of the question-and-answer format with the TOC; that's definitely something to work on. --Jere7my 20:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, Carl: is "certain plot details" close enough to "limited" in the lede? "Certain" implies "not all" and even "not most", which is all that "limited" would do, I think. --Jere7my 20:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a lot more jargon there. What does "those who are likely to be spoiled" mean? Could we say "those who are likely to be surprised", if that's what is meant? Also wherever the draft uses the term "spoiler", it should probably follow the far more encyclopedic "plot detail" or "significant plot detail", or even "plot twist". The term "spoiler", as we've discovered over several months, is so vague as to be almost impossible to pin down, whereas a "significant plot detail" is obviously any plot detail that should be in an encyclopedia on the subject. --Tony Sidaway 20:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"Those who are likely to be surprised" is fine by me. I think replacing "spoiler" with a multi-word equivalent everywhere is going to be unwieldy, though it could well be a good idea in some spots. The opening sentence makes it clear, I think, that spoiler = significant plot detail, and it seems clear from context in some other places: in "Alternatively, the unexpected plot detail may be marked off with spoiler tags. (Remember that those who are likely to be spoiled are those who are unfamiliar with the work, so they may not know where to expect spoilers!)", for instance, it seems clear that the final "spoilers" refers to the plot details we've been discussing. And since the title of the page uses the term spoiler, additional uses seem unlikely to make the page appear less encyclopedic!

Alternately, how about changing the opening line to "...certain significant plot details ("spoilers") in articles..." with the parenthetical being a link to Spoiler (media)? That should clarify it for the whole page. --Jere7my 20:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I made that last change, the "surprised" change, and changed one "spoiler" to "plot detail". That last line was lifted verbatim from the current version, though, and it contains most of the references to spoilers, so it shouldn't be adding to the overall jargon level! --Jere7my 20:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It looks like a vast improvement to me, especially the part about the difference between 'plot' and 'plot summary'. I've been logging the change in spoiler warnings over the past few days, and the vast majority are in plot sections- although as has been noted previously 'plot' is a little too ambigious, so being the more explicit is the better. David Fuchs 20:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I remain unconvinced about the difference between "Plot" and "Plot summary", but if there is a difference I think we can resolve it by recommending much more strongly than we already do that the first thing to do on seeing a "Plot" section containing elements of plot should be to change the section heading to read something that spells out the word "plot" more clearly. If that means replacing the single word "Plot" with "Plot summary", which to me seems almost a "null edit", then do it. I've been replacing "Characters" with "Character histories" for months now, when I found such a section, simply because it is conceivable that somebody reading the article might expect the "Characters" section to be a mere dramatis personae. Misplaced Pages being what it is, many such sections acquire their own narrative dimension, and should be labelled more explicitly. --Tony Sidaway 22:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to steer clear of "recommending much more strongly" in general, since this is after all only a guideline. I was trying to echo the tone of WP:TRIVIA, which encourages a less-disputed (though not undisputed!) practice of "fixing" trivia sections while still managing to gently suggest: "it may be", "a better way", etc. The proposed WP:SPOILER draft currently suggests section-renaming as the first of several suggestions, which seems to nudge people in that direction without dictating it.

As for "Plot" being unclear, I see where you're coming from, but I think we've observationally determined that, for some people, "Plot" just isn't specific enough. I think this reflects spoken English to some degree: "What's the plot?" can mean "Summarize the story for me in detail," "Give me a back-of-the-book teaser," or "Is it boy-meets-girl or man-vs.-nature?" I think "Plot Summary" is pretty clear, and I think in the end we agree on that, and it seems to have some support behind it (though I still prefer "Synopsis" — I think it's better to offer multiple options). --Jere7my 00:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Not trying to rain on the wonderful parade, but you've failed to mention the lead section at all. Other than that, it looks vastly improved. Kuronue | Talk 21:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow — what should I mention about the lede? Carl made a suggestion about the lede, and in return I asked him if "certain" would do as well as "limited"; I also added the "exception to disclaimers" bit Tony wanted. Was there something else I missed? As written, the lede seems concise and descriptive to me. Oh, I see — you meant it doesn't address the question of spoilers in the lede! As I see it, this guideline should address the placement and presence of spoiler tags, not dictate how articles should be written. The guideline does make the suggestion that the lede is a good place for a "back-of-the-book" style overview, and suggests moving spoilers in unlabeled sections to a better location, both of which provide avenues for de-spoilering the lede, but it's agnostic on how the lede should be written. That seems the purview of local editors. --Jere7my 22:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Anything about contents of the lede should refer to the Lead section guideline (aka WP:LEAD), likewise nothing in this guideline can supersede Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style (writing about fiction) (WP:WAF). We can provide some pointers that echo those very well established documents (we should for instance remind editors that they should be writing about the real-world significance of the subject, not their favorite bit of plot detail), but we probably don't want to pre-empt those guidelines too much. --Tony Sidaway 22:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The issue is that the guidelines isn't called "Spoiler tags", it's called "Spoilers" - thus it should dictate when and where spoilers, spoiler tags, and the like are appropriate. Spoilers in the lede seem to fall under the category of both spoiler and lede; if there was anything about spoilers in WP:LEAD, there wouldn't need to be anything here, but as there is not, it's kind of our responsibility. Kuronue | Talk 22:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

No. This guideline cannot dictate anything. In particular, this guideline cannot overturn the Neutral point of view policy. --Tony Sidaway 23:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If the guideline can't dictate _anything_ it can't dictate where spoiler tags are placed. It can't overwrite policy, is all, but nobody's saying it should. Bah, whatever, the draft is still better than the current guideline, so let's get it implemented and then worry about details like that later. Kuronue | Talk 23:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

You're getting there. It's a guideline. It can't dictate anything. --Tony Sidaway 23:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Then it can't dictate that spoiler tags are inappropriate in plot sections, and in the absence of any policy saying that they're inappropriate there, then spoiler tags are appropriate in plot sections, in which case, should I start adding them back? Perhaps dictate was the wrong word, but certainly it has RULES. Kuronue | Talk 23:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The proposed draft actually does say that spoiler tags might sometimes be used within Plot Summary sections under certain circumstances, and doesn't totally preclude them anywhere if you can achieve a consensus for their inclusion. --Jere7my 00:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Kuronue, I think you're beginning to understand. A guideline can only describe the way things are. If you believe that "in the absence of any policy saying that they're inappropriate there, then spoiler tags are appropriate in plot sections", you don't understand Misplaced Pages.

Spoiler tags may sometimes be appropriate in plot sections (I could name a few and have placed such tag in plot sections). No guideline can ever prescribe behavior. That's why we have guidelines rather than policies on some matters.

Jere7my I thank you for your work. I think we're basically on the same page. --Tony Sidaway 00:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

If you can dig up a few concrete examples, I would appreciate it. The discussion of spoiler tags in plot sections has been somewhat abstract so far. — Carl (CBM · talk) 01:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

One that springs immediately to mind is my use of a spoiler tag for Last of the Time Lords. But that was actually me saying that the Master's regeneration was important enough to appear in the lead and therefore we should put the spoiler tag in at the top of the article. Not a good example of the precise thing you're asking for, but certainly for the brief period when this was hot news it might have been a good idea to have a spoiler tag in the plot even if the news hadn't been worthy of appearing in the lead.

I also accepted (and changed to a spoiler template) a spoiler tag in the plot section of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows on 23 July ,. The novel had been released on 21 July.

The "current fiction" template, placed at the top of an articles, seems to have taken over that function lately, and I don't disagree with that. That's why I now believe that the spoiler tag is essentially dead. --Tony Sidaway 01:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

"A guideline is any page that is: (1) actionable (i.e. it recommends, or recommends against, an action to be taken by editors) and (2) authorized by consensus." Therefore, the Spoiler Guideline should recommend or recommend against action with regards to spoilers. So are we recommending or recommending against having spoilers in the lede? Really, the semantics are getting old. We're recommending against putting spoiler tags, but yet when I bring up something unrelated to tags themselves, suddenly we get caught up in my "not understanding" wikipedia. Kuronue | Talk 01:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The proposed draft is largely agnostic on the subject of spoilers in the lede, though it suggests moving them to a clearly labeled section. It provides a means by which people may remove spoilers from the lede if they wish to, and suggests the lede is a good place for a "back-of-the-book" overview, but in practice it'll be up to local editors to find a consensus: no spoilers in the lede, unprotected spoilers in the lede, or tagged spoilers in the lede. As I wrote it, it's a style guide for spoiler tags, not a guide for writing articles. --Jere7my 03:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

We can't recommend that spoilers be kept out of the lead section without going against Neutral point of view. --Tony Sidaway 20:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you explain in detail? NPOV does indicate re-arranging an article is bad, but it adds the qualifier that rearranging the article "based solely on the apparent POV of the content itself" or "Arrangements of formatting, headers, footnotes or other elements that appear to unduly favor a particular "side" of an issue". How is a spoiler a POV, considering it's factual information about the subject of the article in question? Then again, it's probably a stupid question since I "don't understand wikipedia" Kuronue | Talk 13:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

If an aspect of a subject is important enough to appear in the lead section it should appear there. Removing it on the sole grounds that it is a "spoiler" necessarily destroys the balance of the article. For instance, our article on the Aesop fable, The Boy Who Cried Wolf, largely comprises the following description of the plot and theme:

The protagonist of the fable is a bored shepherd boy who entertained himself by calling out "wolf". Nearby villagers who came to his rescue found that the alarms were false and that they'd wasted their time. When the boy was actually confronted by a wolf, the villagers did not believe his cries for help and his flock perished. In some versions when the villagers ignore him the wolf either kills him, and in other versions the wolf simply mocks the boy saying now no one will help him and that it serves him right for playing tricks. The moral is stated at the end of the fable as:

"Even when liars tell the truth, they are never believed. The liar will lie once, twice, and then perish when he tells the truth."

Were this to be removed to a labelled section because it is a spoiler, the chief reason for which the tale is one of Aesop's most commonly referenced fables (to the extent that "to cry wolf" is a common English phrase almost universally understood) would be lost, and the lead section of the article would be unbalanced.

Actually even with the plot summary, the lead section is unbalanced, because it still does not record the cultural significance, as found in the likes of Brewer and Webster . But that's a different matter. --Tony Sidaway 14:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I see that, but things like "Tia dalma is revealed to be the goddess Calypso" - she's notable for being Tia Dalma for all three movies, and outside the third film, she's not particularly notable as a goddess, so I figure that's along the lines of "and then character X shot character Y!" - a development in their history worth noting, but not the main reason for notability, thus not lede-worthy outside of the fact that "OMG no wai!!!!! Most important plot twist EVAR!!!" fancruft reactions. So a clarification might be in order. Kuronue | Talk 23:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Spoilers, schmoilers. This is an encyclopedia. --Tony Sidaway 02:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

New draft is up

Enjoy! (Tony, I saw your edits, but didn't include them — I don't think a history of spoiler tagging fits in the lede. We don't need to tell people what past practice was, or how it differs from current practice — that kind of historical detail can be deduced from histories and talk pages, if people care.) --Jere7my 05:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It should probably contain a reference to works in translation. In theory, this should apply to works being translated out of English as well as into English, like Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, but the English Misplaced Pages's bias prevents this from happening.--Nydas 06:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

This is an English wiki, so theoretically be should be concerned with English versions, be the originally in English or translations into English. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no good reason to stand on that technicality. The issue of spoilering by Misplaced Pages articles prior to foreign releases and editions has been frequently mentioned here. I can think of two reasons to suggest that editors consider pending foreign versions as a reason to add spoiler notices.

First, not doing so irritates publishers and producers, which adds to Misplaced Pages's surely growing reputation as a "spoiler site" that could harm donations at some future tipping point.

Second, with English now the world's major language of business, dismissing the literary desires of non-English cultures for narrative suspense can be noticed and perceived as cultural imperialism. Milo 19:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I can't find the page on it, but I know there's one or two out there that tells us we are NOT supposed to worry about Foundation issues. You've been told this before, and ignored it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's the Foundation issues page. You tell me, but if this is the correct page did you misunderstand what was meant by "Foundation issues"?

"You've been told this before, and ignored it" Yes, I decided to ignore it after I worked though the political calculus. I'm puzzled as to why you think I would have done otherwise, since I've explained why the issue is valid for consideration based on PR chess moves in the media. If the editor who attempted to chill expression of my position had been able to read what I actually wrote, we might have had a good debate. Milo 05:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that we are not supposed to worry about donations/money issues/etc. I can't believe you seriously think we should compromise the good of the encyclopedia because a few people might decline to give a few bucks because 'boo hoo he was spoiled'. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

"we are not supposed to worry about donations/money issues/etc" When you find it let me know, but what you recall may well be gone. I unknowingly referred to WP:RS for a long time after it had been edit-beavered into non-usefulness.

"a few people might decline to give a few bucks" Um, no, you really missed my point. I'm concerned about the potential for pass-along hints suggesting donation withholding from WP among the big money boys and girls with CEO/board level friends in big publishing and Hollywood. I suggest that the industry has dropped hints that they don't like "spoiler sites" that might harm big(er) profits. You aren't taking those hints, or at least are not considering them.

On the other hand, even casual WP withholding may not happen, if the industry concludes that the overall spoiler site problem isn't worth spending PR money to make trouble. Milo 05:45, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

An edit to the lead section

I have made the following edit to the first sentence of the guideline, for reasons that should be evident from the history of the past four months:

Before:

Misplaced Pages uses spoiler tags to mark off certain significant plot details ("spoilers") in articles about fictional works

After:

Misplaced Pages very occasionally uses spoiler tags to mark off particularly significant plot details ("spoilers") in articles about fictional works.

In the above, I have used bold to indicate words removed from the original or added to the new version. This emphasis does not of course appear on the guideline itself. --Tony Sidaway 20:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Tony: I have toned down your edit, for two reasons. One, the change from "certain" to "particularly" is ungrammatical with respect to the parenthetical — "particularly significant plot details ("spoilers")" is defining a spoiler as a particularly significant plot detail, which disagrees with the wording in the tag, whereas in "certain significant plot details (spoilers)" the word "certain" modifies "significant plot details ("spoilers")", so the definition matches the parenthetical. I'm not sure I'm explaining that well, but hopefully you can puzzle the meaning out. :) If you can find a way to word it that equates the tag phrasing with the parenthetical, go to!

I also removed the "very", since I think one of the problems with the previous version was intensifier escalation. It makes the guideline more insistent at the expense of encyclopedic tone and "guideline tone", imho. I'm happy with "occasionally", as I left it, or alternately you could move the " often they necessary at all if the article is well-structured" from the third paragraph to the end of that sentence, which I think might convey your intent even better. (Please delete the second occurrence if you do, to avoid duplication!)

I'm not going to make many edits here — it was taking too much of my time! — but I may cavil now and then. --Jere7my 02:10, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Your edit sits well with me. It seems to keep the sense of my original edit while answering your own concerns. --Tony Sidaway 20:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Looks like an effort to establish quotas on the number of spoiler tags permitted, rather than judging the cases on an individual basis. If the number of 'permitted' tags grows too high, it will be too difficult for the spoiler police to personally oversee every tag, and it will actually be up to the community.--Nydas 21:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You've got a point there. Obviously a number of responsible editors, myself included, want to avoid the situation again becoming so bad that we have to perform a mass removal of redundant tags.

I'm sure that we all agree that there were indiscriminate uses of spoiler tags prior to the discussions of May, 2007. Comparisons to the Wild West seem to have struck a chord between at least two editors who haven't yet been accused of being involved in some nefarious plot to subvert consensus , and the original MFD, before it was changed to a RFC , showed quite strong opposition to the old tag-permissive guideline. Editing history of articles since then has shown that, where editors actually take an interest in the problem, the tags are kept to a bare minimum and article quality improves. Overlarge plot summaries are tagged, poorly marked sections are renamed, unnecessarily placed tags are removed. All we need for a guideline, really, is to document what good Wikipedians have been doing all along: making Misplaced Pages better. --Tony Sidaway 23:53, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Removing spoiler tags sacrifices functionality for moralising, neutrality for 'fans only' and a worldwide view for a US-centric one. It makes Misplaced Pages worse.

The editing histories show that people who have added at least one spoiler tag outnumber the people removing them by at least a hundred to one. These are good Wikipedians doing what comes naturally; ensuring that the articles are fair-minded and balanced, rather than fans-only fansite extensions.--Nydas 09:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

You will find this is so with many Misplaced Pages guidelines and policies. For instance, the number of people uploading unauthorized copyrighted images vastly exceeds the number of editors removing them. Misplaced Pages's anyone-can-edit approach means you have a lot of novice editors showing up and doing whatever strikes their fancy. That doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it wrong, either. It's just a random factoid that contributes nothing to the debate. Marc Shepherd 15:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Only copyright stuff and WP:BLP come anywhere near, and even then, they're 'Wild West' compared to it. Nor do they have quotas.--Nydas 19:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Where is there a quota in the spoiler guideline? I seem to have missed it. In any event, the fact that people frequently add spoiler tags is no evidence that they are "good Wikipedians...ensuring that the articles are fair-minded and balanced." It's not any evidence of anything. Every day, the number of edits reverted for vandalism probably exceeds the number of spoiler tags removed by a factor of 100,000 to 1. (Vandalism accounts for about 6% of all edits; see here.) So the frequency that something happens shows only that it happens frequently; nothing more. Marc Shepherd 19:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The quota is a de facto policy adopted by the anti-spoiler police. As the number of spoiler tags rises, they make it more and more difficult to add one, regardless of the merits of the case. I agree that the popularity of spoiler tags is not evidence, so I outlined their intrinsic benefits.--Nydas 06:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that it contributes nothing. Unlike vandalism or copyright removal, this is not a 'settled issue'. We're arguing over whether the guideline has consensus, and what the consensus actually is on the issue. As such, the number of people who are adding spoiler tags _is_ relevant. It's not solely of relevance, but it is relevant, as it helps to illustrate consensus. With vandalism, nobody seriously claims that vandalism is right for wikipedia. Copyright rules might have a few people opposed to it, but it's a matter of obeying the law. In these cases, it's not usually a matter of the violators being opposed to the overarching issue, it's about them either not knowing or being willfully disruptive. But here we're forging a guideline, and people claim that there is no significant opposition to the guideline as justification for it. So, the number of different people who are adding it, compared to the number of people 'enforcing' it _is_ something to consider. They have a voice in the debate too, and their voice is made at least in part by their edits. (Wouldn't it be lovely if, instead of just edit summaries that assert the guideline as a rule, the anti-warning patrol included a "help us find consensus at the issue over at Wikipedia_talk:Spoiler!" link, but since that's unlikely, we should go at least look at the numbers). Wandering Ghost 11:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

<outdent> I think such an edit summary is a very good idea. It'd be nice to get 'new blood' here as it were. Maybe we'll stop going in circles. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:04, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Hang on! Nydas, Wandering Ghost, didn't we just get a completely new guideline written by a party who has not yet been accused of being a member of the "spoiler police"? Didn't the new one pass muster with almost everybody who commented on it? The old guideline to which some editors persistently objected is gone. And you're still complaining! --Tony Sidaway 12:11, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I was addressing a point, made by someone I thought made an incorrect assessment, in an effort to improve things. Perhaps the fact that you have confused it with 'complaining' explains why you have so often been unable or unwilling to address points yourself. But while I'm on the topic, since I haven't said it yet, I do think the current guideline, on the whole, is better than the last, although there are still systemic problems thanks to the uneven editing playing field. Wandering Ghost 11:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The guideline as it stands is OK. The problem is the enforcement. The guideline states that murder mysteries may have them, but we can rest assured that this will not be permitted.--Nydas 15:49, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

You cannot be sure until you have discussed the possibility with respect to a relevant article. Don't complain until you've had a good go at it. --Tony Sidaway 02:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

"Newly discovered Shakespeare play"

I've edited the reference to a "newly discovered Shakespeare play" :

Before:

(A newly discovered Shakespeare play could well demand spoiler protection for a while!)

After:

(A newly discovered Shakespeare play could conceivably have a spoiler warning' for a while.)

The reasoning is pretty straightforward. I think it unlikely that an article about a newly discovered Shakespeare play would give the plot of the play much prominence. Even if it did, I think it would be unlikely to come as the kind of revelation that would be termed a "spoiler", and I further think it unlikely that people who worry about "spoilers" in video games, comics, soap operas and the like would have the same feeling about the plot of such a play. --Tony Sidaway 18:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

A not so brief and (slightly) scientific survey of spoiler tags on the mainspace

I attempted a sort of 'spoiler survey' over the last week, parts of which I have excerpted below. Others have done a little less meticulous surveys on specific types of articles, but I was only paying attention to the occurrences on Wiki mainspace as a whole. Keep in mind that while this is a fairly good sample, it's only itended to suggest usage/removal trends. However I do believe in terms of usage this is more useful than personal anecdotes. Over the course of eight days I did 26 checks at random times (the majority, however, occurred very roughly at 20:00 UTC and in the span before and after). I logged the total number of spoilers, and for new additions noted where they were added; for removals (those that were not clear violations of the current WP:SPOILER guideline), I noted who removed them. Some conclusions, with minimal conjecture:

• There are no significant edit wars over spoiler warnings themselves, although I did notice one incident over content itself, which incidentally was marked with tags. Whether or not this is because editors are discouraged upon removal is an impossible hypothesis to prove, so we'll disregard cause and instead focus on measureable effects.
• An average of 4.1 tags are on en.Wiki mainspace at a time, with a median of 3 tags at any given point. There were no times logged when there were no warnings on Misplaced Pages.
• Of all the warnings put on Misplaced Pages, 84% are removed within one day. Only about 8% of spoiler warnings can be expected to remain for a longer period (in this case, a week).
• Only 13.5% of all notices were in places other than sections marked 'Plot', 'Plot summary', et al.

{{Spoiler}} linkage

Overall:: less than 2000 occurrences, all spaces.

Talk: 300-400, often as a banner on top of the talk page.

User: 600-700, used rather randomly (see User:Ich; incidentally, Ich believes we are "fascists" for removing spoiler tags. huh.)

Samples of logging

Mainspace: 2007-09-11 19:26 UTC: (2) -- Sosuke Aizen, Miles Edgeworth Sosuke Aizen's warning is used in the lead, and was left after discussion; the reason being that the episode will not air in a market (US, I think) until December.

Edgeworth's spoiler is used in one of the appearances section, for no apparent reason.

2007-09-12 1:55 UTC: (3) -- Now You Know (Desperate Housewives episode) (not-yet aired season premiere) link

2007-09-12 11:31 UTC: (2) plot section of Desperate Housewives removed, no edit summary.

2007-09-12 19:27 UTC: (2) Miles Edgeworth one removed, one added before the lead to Akira (character). Editor's explanation on talk page.

2007-09-12 20:42 UTC: (3) First Love (novella): Added in specially marked section 'Conclusion'

2007-09-13 19:55 UTC: (2) Previous spoilers gone, two newcomers: Slade Carter, which was a serious CSD A7 bio, and I thus deleted; and Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, in the plot section.

On Sosuke Aizen, the spoiler was replaced by a {{Current fiction}} tag by Kusma, reverted and replaced with maitenance tags by JzG. I reverted to the spoiler in lead (leaving the in-universe tags) due to local consensus.

For Akira, the tag was removed by Marc Shepherd as per WP:SPOILER, added back in, and removed by Kusma per the content disclaimer.

2007-09-13 22:16 UTC: (2) back to Aizen, along with Interbang (used to mark the plot). The warning was removed by user Kweeket. Perhaps worth noting the spoiler was added by an anonymous ip.

2007-09-14 00:51 UTC: (3) Added to the mix is Atonement (film), an as-yet-unreleased film (in NA); the spoiler appears in the section titled 'differences between film and book' and seems more reasonable as there is no plot section above it, although one could still argue that plot must by necessity be mentioned.

2007-09-14 11:22 UTC: (6) The Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift, My Sister's Keeper, and 28 Weeks Later added. My Sister's Keeper has tags in the plot summary, ditto with TFTF, same thing with 28WL. However, in the latter the spoiler tags are in a section marked 'Plot'; in MSK, it's in "Plot Summary". All the tags were added by anonymous editors; the latter two were added by the same ip, and were that contributer's sole edits.

2007-09-14 19:41 UTC: (1) Back to Aizen. TFTF tag was removed by Tony Sidaway, as was My Sister's Keeper; 28WL removed by user Geoff B - (note, evidence of edit warring on the page, but not in relation to the spoiler warnings.)

2007-09-14 22:52 UTC: (2) added to William Birkin.

2007-09-15 16:28 UTC: (13) a slew added, in varying places. For example, on The Departed, it's used in the cast section (the table has a 'killed by' section; the cast comes after plot). Added by User:Ferengi. In Final Destination, it's used after plot in a 'deaths' section. The Last of the Mohicans (1992 film) used it in a clearly-marked 'Synopsis' section. Also used in plot sections of two Stargate Atlantis episodes, plot summary of Owlflight, and Sati (book).

2007-09-15 19:37 UTC: (2) In Aizen again as well as Chak De India, in the Synopsis section.

2007-09-15 21:36 UTC: (5) An editor added tags to the plot section of unreleased Desperate Housewives episodes.

2007-09-15 23:59 UTC: (3) Aizen, Saint Leibowitz and the Wild Horse Woman (in 'Plot summary') and Chak de India.

2007-09-16 18:43 UTC: (6) Aizen, Match Point (again), Akito Sohma, From the Corner of His Eye, Bridge to Terabithia (2007 film), and, most perplexingly, List of cliffhanger endings. You'd think that one would be enough explanation in itself. Spoilers were added by IPs, except Match Point, which was added repeatedly by YellowTapedR.

2007-09-16 21:25 UTC: (3) Others removed, except Aizen and Bridge to Terabithia; Fracture (film) added; used in 'Synopsis' section marking off the bottom 3/4th of plot; appears that the unmarked portion is the "off the box" plot summary (possible copyvio?)

2007-09-17 20:00 UTC: (6)

2007-09-18 22:03 UTC: (8) Ayreon (I removed, as it's not a fictional subject), Before Sunset (used halfway through the plot summary). Mata Nui (Great Spirit) (for only one line?), Toa Inika/Toa Mahri, (also randomly added, this page should prolly get deleted anyhow), Colby Granger (wouldn't need a spoiler prolly, if it was expanded.) Oh, and La Vie En Rose (film) (used in entire 'Plot' section).

2007-09-19 21:43 UTC: (5)

Discussion

Just an FYI, the tag on Edgeworth was because at the beginning of the game it's mentioned that Edgeworth is "gone" and you don't find out what's happened to him until almost the end of the game. It's irrelevant now, but you mentioned there was "no apparent reason", so I supplied a reason. Kuronue | Talk 23:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Your log is interesting, but only a little more useful than an anecdote. I respectfully object to any suggestion of its being even a slightly scientific survey. I see such suggestion as a failure by your science teachers to convey a basic principle of science: one cannot measure anything without affecting it, so the next best thing is to thoughtfully minimize variables introduced by the observer.
What you actually have is a spoiler police log, or in more neutral terms, a log of activist personal journalism. More useful than previous personal anecdotes? Perhaps, but not by much.
Since you participated in the editing you observed, your log is improperly called a survey. It's not even a typical unscientific one as found in web newspapers, which lack statistically random sampling, but are otherwise unparticipated in by the editors. It's also too biased to call a sample. I'm likely to object to anyone citing the averages and percentages you provide, as being numerical junk. However, I think some things can be cautiously learned from it.
If you want to do this again without personal participation, your work will be far more credible.

"see User:Ich; incidentally, Ich believes we are "fascists" for removing spoiler tags. huh." For the average person the most prominent characteristic of fascism is rigid central control of the details of everyday life, with odious enforcement. While the spoiler guide is undergoing change, it still reflects an unpopular and unnecessarily authoritarian ideology. The clique's May 2007 takedown of 45,000 spoiler tags without local consultation, and with abuse of central due process, is quite properly described as fascist. Milo 02:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

To the actual data; there's a reason I put 'slightly scientific'. But above logging actions on Misplaced Pages, I was editing to make pages conform to guidelines. Besides, as I am part of the Misplaced Pages community, I might as well include myself- not doing so discounts a factor in spoiler warning usage/removal. The percentages are entirely valid- especially the 13.5%, which is based off every page I visited and doesn't change even if I removed a tag. The vast majority were in 'Plot' and 'Plot summary', and I removed those which were explicitly against the guideline, and left ones in other sections where their use would be more murky. Similarly, the 4.1 and 3 tags on mainspace are valid, since they are from a mean/median of recorded numbers. I affected personally less than five spoiler warnings, one of those cases being reinsertion on Aizen. That means I affected less than 13% of the pages I logged. David Fuchs 11:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, Milo, if you find David's study so deeply flawed, why don't you do one yourself? You could show us how it ought to be done. Marc Shepherd 15:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The time commitment would be greater than I have available. However, what I'm doing here as a peer reviewer is useful and indeed necessary when there is a suggestion of (even slight) science. Also, I needn't demonstrate since the details of David's observing methodology aren't the obvious problem.

I'm disappointed that David didn't take the scientific method point of avoiding the observer effect (also see double blind). One useful definition is found in the section on information technology, "the observer effect is the potential impact of the act of observing a process output while the process is running." The scientific method requires diligence to reduce the observer effect if possible, and certainly do nothing to increase it.

David believes that he can adequately discount for his own participatory edits. This gets into presumptions of systemic linearity (like flat earth theory), when systems are defined by, and unexpectedly curved by, feedback loops. In any given instance I may be persuaded that David's participatory-editing discounts are true enough, but such a persuasion is not even slightly describable as based on science. Milo 18:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

You have carpet-bombed this page with buckets full of assumptions, none of which you've bothered to substantiate. It may well be that you don't have the time commitment for real analysis, and therefore, can do no more than share your personal impressions, which are probably infected with more biases than David Fuchs's study. But until someone comes along and does a better study, David's analysis—however imperfect though may be—is the best we have. Marc Shepherd 18:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

"none of which you've bothered to substantiate" You are wrong. You should have understood my posts before commenting on them; that way you would have avoided losing your credibility. If you couldn't understand them, you should have kept silent. In my review of David's log and followup, I explained the problem, cited two Misplaced Pages articles, and quoted from one of them. That is substantiation.

Speaking of your lost credibility, I'm still waiting for you to delete the personal attacks in #Disputed guideline message box, where you called me and Nydas trolls. Milo 01:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Milo, check out WP:TROLL. Whether you like it or not, you do have a tendency to come off as "trollish". Many of your comments on this talk page can be construed as "deliberately inflammatory", however this doesn't make you an outright troll. The essay in question states that "people who passionately believe in what they are writing also sometimes behave in a way that may make them appear to be a troll" so I suggest that editors give you the benefit of the doubt until they have reason to believe otherwise. —Viriditas | Talk 04:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I've moved this subthread back to the scene of Marc's official policy offense at #Disputed guideline message box. Milo 15:27, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't add spoiler tags "repeatedly" to Match Point. I added it once when I thought the revised guideline allowed it. I thought it was appropriate because the surprise is rather high up in the plot section, which readers might be checking out just to get a gist of it. After I was reverted, I didn't re-add it because it's not worth the effort. If you go to The Crying Game article, you'll see I recently reverted an edit where twist was taken out of the lead.--YellowTapedR 06:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

According to the page history, you added back in a section containing spoilers, and then did so once more. So argue about 'repeatedly', but you evidently did so twice. David Fuchs 11:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see what you're saying, I said you added it repeatedly the second time. Sorry, I misconstrued your action there. David Fuchs 11:45, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

It's perhaps worth noting that the recorded removal of the plot section from Now You Know (Desperate Housewives episode), although recorded as "2007-09-12 11:31 UTC: (2) plot section of Desperate Housewives removed, no edit summary.", had been discussed by myself and Pjar (the remover of the content on September 12th) on 3rd and 4th September . The unsourced plot summary of an as-yet unbroadcast episode had thus been restored against apparent consensus, without discussion. --Tony Sidaway 17:17, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

You guys really don't have to defend yourselves. There was no edit summary, but I never said it wasn't discussed at other times (I'm pretty sure you removed the entire section at least once explaining that without a source it was useless.) David Fuchs 21:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Ownership of articles

Per Ownership of articles, I have made the following edit:

In a work that is uncommonly reliant on the impact of a plot twist or surprise ending — a murder mystery, for instance — a spoiler tag may be appropriate even within a properly labeled "Synopsis" section, if local editors agree. These should be sourced when possible (e.g., by citing a professional reviewer who describes the impact of the surprise).

In a work that is uncommonly reliant on the impact of a plot twist or surprise ending — a murder mystery, for instance — a spoiler tag may be appropriate even within a properly labeled "Synopsis" section, if there is consensus. These should be sourced when possible (e.g., by citing a professional reviewer who describes the impact of the surprise).

This has been discussed before. The concept of "local editors" is absolutely alien to Misplaced Pages's "anyone can edit" principle. --Tony Sidaway 17:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

"concept of "local editors" is absolutely alien to Misplaced Pages's "anyone can edit" principle" Nonsense. If you show up to edit, you are local. The implied point is you do have to show up. Milo 20:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Then there's no need to mention it.--Nydas 17:53, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

"Then there's no need to mention it" I disagree. "Local" is about where decisions are to be made, not who makes them. The point of mentioning "local editors" or "local consensus" is to establish that certain things are to be decided on the article's local talk page, and thus will not be decided centrally by the guide.

The analogy is to unnamed states' rights and people's rights being explicitly mentioned as reserved to the states and the people in the U.S. Constitution. The framers knew that failure to mention the equivalent of local rights will result in an erosion of those rights. Milo 19:48, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The issue is that "local editors" has no more meaning than "editors". — Carl (CBM · talk) 19:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

At one time that might have been true, but until Tony's circular reasoning of consensus decided elsewhere than the article and its talk page is completely refuted, it currently needs to be made explicit. Milo 20:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Carl and Tony. There are no "local editors," and there is no "local consensus." Marc Shepherd 20:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

There may be no "local editors" or "local consensus," but Milo still has a point. If the language is the issue, why don't we just say that consensus should be established on the article's talk page? Postmodern Beatnik 21:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll explain precisely why the term "local editors" is a very important one in the context of this long, long discussion:

• 20:51, 12 June 2007 Wandering Ghost:

  If the consensus truly is overwhelming, the local editors will make sure to keep them out.

• 12:42, 18 June 2007 Wandering Ghost:

  It has been noted that there is a tendency for people who are vehemently anti- or pro- spoiler warning to show up to spoiler warning tag discussions on talk pages or articles they're uninvolved with, and in numbers which overwhelm the local editors, in an attempt to push their view that spoilers should be rarer or more common. These people should be ignored where there is a strong local consensus one way or the other.

• 22:59, 29 June 2007 User:Jere7my:

  A small handful of admins and senior editors are stomping out brushfires of spoiler tags wherever they arise, usually against the wishes of local editors. It's not cool, man. It's way far away from the spirit of Misplaced Pages.

• 12:23, 30 June 2007 User:Jere7my:

  As I said on the mediation page, since the anti-spoiler folks think there's broad consensus that spoiler tags are bad, granting more leeway to local editors shouldn't (in their eyes) lead to a lot of new spoiler tags.

• 22:33, 6 July 2007 User:Philipreuben:

  I can agree with this, provided it involves rewording the guideline to make clear that certain issues are contentious and therefore left entirely up to local editors.

• 12:35, 7 July 2007 User:Wandering Ghost:

  ...and often outright claim consensus for removal because the page isn't watched by many people except one or two local editors and the people who decide they need to personally approve or deny every spoiler warning.

• 19:42, 18 July 2007 User:Postmodern Beatnik:

  Are we (by which I mean local editors) up to the task? We better be. Otherwise, we're not doing our jobs.

] is right, when he says that "the implied point is you do have to show up" and "there's no need to mention it." Yes.

User:Milomedes says: The point of mentioning "local editors" or "local consensus" is to establish that certain things are to be decided on the article's local talk page, and thus will not be decided centrally by the guide. I think what he says is right, which is why I include the phrase "if there is consensus." Obviously consensus here has its usual meaning of informed consensus resulting from discussion of the issue in context, and has the same sense of "you do have to show up" that NydasMilo mentioned, and does imply the requirement for discussion. Blind revert wars are not how we decide consensus. If there is opposition we must always decide it by discussion at the most immediate point: the talk page of the article in question.

But my reason for avoidance of the term "local editors" in this context is that, historically in this debate, it has been used to distinguish those who simply turn up from those who might for whatever reason have performed more edits to that article, or to that type of article. It is because that concept has attached itself to the term "local editors" that I would avoid using it in this guideline. If it simply and unambiguously meant "editors on the talk page, making decisions subject to the broader consensus and the sense of Misplaced Pages policy", then I'd probably go along with it. --Tony Sidaway 01:29, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Tony, I split my post after writing it, and without a second set of tildes, my emphatic remark (you do have to show up) got attributed to Nydas. I've taken the liberty of making attribution corrections to your post of which I hope you approve. If not, they are at least a guide to your further re-edit corrections and rethinking based on the facts. Feel free to just delete-edit and rewrite it without the strikeout mess that I inadvertently caused.

Several of the quotes use "local editors" in a meaning for which I would use "regular editors", since local refers to geography (in this case virtual geography). In my edit to the guideline, I used the term "local consensus" which I think avoids the problem of confusing "local editors" with "regular editors". There may be another way to describe the same locale.

"if there is consensus" does not make clear enough that certain things should be decided on the article's talk page. Since Wikiprojects are now claiming consensus jurisdiction over articles, a clear distinction of where a decision should be made may help avoid bureaucratic disputes over who has to get consensus permission from whom before doing what.

I'd say that if Wikiproject editors want to exert control over article consensus, they too have to show up just like everyone else. Milo 06:32, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure where this obsession with "local editors" and "local consensus" comes from. Obviously, in a sense, every article is edited locally: someone has to show up and edit it. But because that is self-evident, those intent on adding "locality" to the guideline must mean something else. I'm guessing here, but I think some folks are trying to distinguish the subject-matter experts who create most of the content, from generalist editors who work all over the place.

I don't think it works that way. The generalist editors have a role to play, too — for instance, in recognizing recurring patters, and making pages look consistent. Decisions accumulate one page at a time, but it's perfectly natural to add or remove a spoiler tag, because similar articles have added or removed it. Consensus, therefore, is not always decided locally in one article. Marc Shepherd 15:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the term "local editor" is pretty obvious. It's someone who has the article in his watchlist and fixes vandalism occasionally, or who writes or edits some content for it, or who just returns there from time to time. On the other hand, I would say someone who monitors large number of articles by bot (where large means more than he could handle himself) or changes an often used template is not a local editor in the affected articles. Of course, the category is fuzzy, but many categories are. There are maybe 200000 articles about fiction (just a wild guess), so people who care about SWs on all of them are not local editors by any definition. Also note that this doesn't goes against ownership of articles - everyone can become local editor of any article he wishes to. Also, to prevent misunderstandings, I don't think that some editors should have say over another. I think "consensus by local editors" in this sense means that there will be no editors going around those 200000 articles and telling other editors (who care more about article in question) how should they place the spoiler tags. I want to discourage such behaviour. Samohyl Jan 18:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your definition of "local editor," but what has it to do with the guideline? Does any other guideline refer to "local editors" (as opposed to other kinds of editors)? On Misplaced Pages, no one needs to become "local" before they can edit. The consensus process doesn't work any differently for spoiler tags than it does for other stylistic matter. Marc Shepherd 19:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

As I said above, I don't want to guideline prefer any editor over another (being democrat and anti-elitist, I don't even consider it right), I just want to discourage certain behaviour. Just like WP:ENGVAR (rather gently, imho) tries to discourage people from going around and change the English variety on articles. Samohyl Jan 00:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but it _does_ work differently for spoiler tags than for some other stylistic matters. Because of the editing imbalance. Because a) consensus is not clear one way or the other in this case, and b) one side has an overwhelming advantage in editing their POV.

Let's look at it this way. On some page, Z, there is naturally disagreement about whether a spoiler tag is appropriate. Say in general, X people think it is inappropriate, and Y people think it should be there. How do people in X get to the page? They search for uses of template Spoiler, and once they get there, they remove it. How do people in Y get to the page? They have to already be there. Otherwise they don't know there's a debate going on. They might not even know the page EXISTS. So even if Y is equal to or greater than X, because people in X can easily find the edit on Z they don't agree with, they can win there (and if there is no such edit, they have already won). And then move on to Z', where there may be just as much disagreement. And Z. In essence, _ADDING_ spoiler tags is _already_ restricted to 'local editors'.

If there was a bug that prevented people from searching for words in American spellings, but not for searching for words in British spelling, then it would likewise be very possible for some determined group to remove British spelling from most pages - they might be fought on a page by page basis, but if there were enough of them and they kept vigilant, they could do it.

I still feel strongly that _something_ needs to be done to

address this. If not specifying a preference for local editors in this case, then agreeing on limiting the number of solely spoiler-related edits in a certain time frame (say 3 per day), to prevent people from going on patrol (the rule would apply to either adding or removing spoiler warnings, but in this case would have more effect in one particular area), or a "do not make your only edit the addition or removal of a spoiler, only add or remove a spoiler warning as part of a larger edit", or the creation of a 'disputed spoiler' tag, invisible on the page, but that people can search for and add their point of view, and suggest that when removing a spoiler tag, you should replace it with the disputedspoiler tag. Or something else that I haven't thought of that can help address this. Wandering Ghost 12:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not about specialist versus generalist, it's about not encouraging people who don't give two shits about a particular article, who won't help clean it up or write anything or verify anything, coming along to insist that it's of utmost importance that the article have or not have a spoiler tag; if a handful of editors do so on a number of articles, no matter WHICH side they're on, then vanish once they win, is that really consensus or just subtle spoiler-POV pushing? Kuronue | Talk 21:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Here's an example of the situation in which the people who visited the page to remove the spoiler tag never visited it before and haven't visited it since. Have a look at the talk page as well.Garda40 22:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

How can you know they never visited it before or after? You don't have to edit anything to look at it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 23:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for providing me with a good laugh seeing you quibble about the word visited .Garda40 00:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

That's precisely the reason why such behaviour cannot be explicitly banned, but should be discouraged. Samohyl Jan 00:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You're saying it should be discouraged to not make some edits because others won't be made too? I for one have a number of pages I watch but have never made an edit to. You speak as if there's something horridly wrong with doing that. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 01:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I was referring to behaviour I and Kuronue described above, obviously. Samohyl Jan 07:50, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The very reason we have a wiki is to enable anybody to edit. If we get to the stage where we are discouraging edits by known, trusted editors, then we might as well give up. --Tony Sidaway 01:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If we get to the stage where we encourage people to go from article to article pushing their POV, we're doomed. It's the same as people coming to, say, all pregnancy- and abortion-related articles saying "We should use the terms "mother" and "baby" and "father" and "womb"" because that fits their pro-life spin (and this is an actual case going on now, mind). We should encourage people to IMPROVE WIKIPEDIA, not to POLICE SPOILER TAGS. Kuronue | Talk 02:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It takes all kinds of editing to improve Misplaced Pages, and what you refer to as "policing spoiler tags" is only one of them. I (and I'm sure the vast majority of all Wikipedians) would characterize your reasoning as a false dichotomy. we've been here before. On 27 August, I explained the situation as follows :

But that being so, what am I doing to improve Misplaced Pages? Chopping out tags that some people find useful? Not a bit of it. Mostly I remove redundant tags from sections with names like "Story", "Plot" or "Synopsis". As I've stated above, it's not acceptable in an encyclopedia to write about such matters without covering what most reasonable people would consider spoilers. But that's not all I do. I change the names of sections, or add section names where they do not already exist, so that the reader will not be misled. Don't misunderstand me: I don't create corraled areas of spoiling content. Rather, I create structure in the article that shows the casual reader that this is an encyclopedia and not a fan site, that its mission is to inform and not to conceal. I am performing an essential function in the construction of an encyclopedia: making an infrastructure that permits all significant elements of a subject to be covered, and removing elements that make such coverage difficult to provide in an integrated manner. We shouldn't be dodging in and ou of "spoiler" areas dictated arbitrarily by random editors. Rather we should always feel free to refactor any article to improve the delivery of information.

In short, I'm very happy with the work I've done on Misplaced Pages, and you have yet to show that it does anything but good to the encyclopedia. --Tony Sidaway 02:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to correct structure of articles; I'm saying it's generally a bad idea to promote that being the only thing you do in all of wikipedia. Nor am I claiming it's the only thing you do, but really. There're FAR larger problems than this one, and nobody should be encouraged to do nothing but police the spoiler tag issue, hunting down every last instance to eradicate it. That's rather WP:POINTish. Kuronue | Talk 23:08, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes you're right to state that there are other problems that need to solved. I think it would be an extremely short-sighted person who claimed that's the only thing I do on Misplaced Pages. Blind might be a better word (see this which I've already quoted from at length and which is consonant with my extremely long contribution history). Please read Do not disrupt Misplaced Pages to illustrate a point (aka WP:POINT). It's very important to understand what it means. It definitely doesn't mean "don't try to improve Misplaced Pages's content with each and ever edit you make.."

I know I or some other experienced editors asks someone to read and try to understand WP:POINT just about every time it's cited, but there's a good reason for that: it's often cited in a quite baffling manner that it impossible to connect in any way to that text or the sense of that guideline. --Tony Sidaway 23:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm blind? Nor am I claiming it's the only thing you do, from the post RIGHT above yours. I'm stating a WORST-case scenario, not trying to say that it's done. If all you do is start edit was about spoiler tags and force your own personal agenda - claiming consensus is with your side - then that is disrupting wikipedia to prove a point. It's a good thing nobody's that bad -- yet. I'm worried that it might happen in the future, and the way to prevent that would be to avoid advocating monitoring spoiler tag usage across all of wikipedia - the temptation to then bring your own personal agenda, for or against, is rather great. Kuronue | Talk 23:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay. As long as we all understand that you absolutely were not talking about the current implementation of the guideline, but only about some hypothetical person who might make considerable efforts to keep spoiler tagging under control.

Starting edit wars by removing spoiler tags, whatever one's personal opinion of the matter, would of course be extremely disruptive, we agree on that. We definitely shouldn't do that. It isn't anything to do with WP:POINT, however. Please do read and try to understand that guideline. Please also stop abusing the word "agenda". The way you use it above, it seems to be absolutely meaningless. "By going to the toilet, Smith was pursuing an agenda of voiding his bowels". Utterly without sense. --Tony Sidaway 23:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry my meager command of the english langauge is not up to your standards, m'lord. I'll refrain from bothering in the future. I've stated my point, anyone can here read it, for better or for worse. I'm done defending it at this point in time. Kuronue | Talk 23:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

"Local editors" use and misuse

Getting back to the issue of what is meant by the phrase "local editors" —

The problem I observe here may be use of a slang meaning of "local" as incorrectly confused with "regular". If so, editors who don't use the dictionary aren't likely to agree on anything with those who do use the dictionary.
Here are the first two definitions of "local" at m-w.com "local":

1 : characterized by or relating to position in space : having a definite spatial form or location

2 a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a particular place : not general or widespread

"Local", the adjective, means a place in space, in this case cyberspace. Articles on web pages have an address known as a URL (Universal Resource Locator). If one wants to navigate there, a URL is placed in the address bar, and the Go button can be pressed to load the page at that location. When one is at that locale, one is local to it. Whether one has been there many times or only once, one is always local while there, but not necessarily a regular visitor.
Here is the 3rd definition of "regular" at m-w.com "regular":

3 a : ORDERLY, METHODICAL <regular habits> b : recurring, attending, or functioning at fixed, uniform, or normal intervals

and in the inverse, the 4th definition at m-w.com "irregular":

4 : lacking continuity or regularity especially of occurrence or activity <irregular employment>

The confusion of "local" with "regular" may partly arise from informal use of "local" as noun at American Heritage "local":

4. Informal A person from a particular locality.

(Note: I switched dictionaries because m-w.com and COED used the adjective to define the noun.)

In ordinary understanding, a "local" is informally someone who seen regularly in a certain place. When there is confusion, an encyclopedia must default to formal language — but — there seems to be a second stacked-on problem of an informality used as slang. The phrase "local editors", as misused, positions "local" as an adjective, yet it's meaning appears to be that of the informal noun (rhetorically understood as a person seen regularly in a certain place).
So, while I can figure out what Samohyl Jan and other editors mean in a discussion, their apparent usage of an informal noun in a formal adjective position, isn't what is found by consulting a dictionary. Their usage is therefore slang that is not only incorrect for use in a guide, but is usage impossible of consensus.
If my analysis is essentially correct, the simple answer to more closely approaching consensus on this point is for those who are speaking/writing incorrectly to educate themselves, since education is the underlying purpose for which they are working. Milo 01:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Seriously Milo, shut up. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 01:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

This discussion wouldn't be the same without you, but it sounds like you need a music-intensive Wikivacation to nice up. Milo 02:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't particularly understand this obsession with the term "local" or "local editors", but Misplaced Pages has been making use of {{maintained}} since December of 2005. This template identifies articles that are "being actively monitored and maintained for quality and factuality by identified users." So the terms in use would be "monitors" and "maintainers"; "active users" or "active editors" would also work. "Local editors" is too much of a neologism and ambiguous to be helpful. —Viriditas | Talk 03:39, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to say I've never come across {{maintained}}. It's certainly not typical for policies and/or guidelines to distinguish "maintainers" from other types of editors. Marc Shepherd 03:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a big place. :) {{maintained}} is being used on ~1600 articles or so, but that's not very many considering we have more than two million. Looking at my comments above, you're right in that Misplaced Pages doesn't use the term "maintainers", however, the term "active editors" does show up quite a lot in discussions, although I've only seen it used on the WP:COI behavioral guideline and in the essay, WP:1RR. If you search the talk and project namespace you'll find the term "active editors" used quite a bit, and "local editors" very little. —Viriditas | Talk 05:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I've always been somewhat uneasy about the "maintained" tag, but it's pretty clear that it's accepted as long as the people listed are understood to be there (to quote the template) "to help with questions about verification and sources." --Tony Sidaway 02:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Reduced usefulness

Hi. I just wanted to post how disappointed I am at the removal of spoiler warnings from Misplaced Pages, as it's made the site far less useful. Misplaced Pages is still the site of choice for looking up almost anything: places, historical figures, mathematical formulae, and random things like Toucan crossings or Caravanserai. But there's now a massive category of exceptions: anything fictional that I haven't seen but might want to.

Obviously I can safely look at the page for a film I've seen, or for a book I already know I won't want to see. But for anything in between those categories – any anime, computer game, film, book, or TV series that I might or might not want to see, as well as for random characters like the Dread Pirate Roberts where I might not be able to remember what fictional work they're from – Misplaced Pages is no longer safe for me to use.

This is a pity both from my point of view (looking something up on Misplaced Pages is simply more useful and reliable than googling it) and from yours (because I always make a point of fixing any typos or grammatical issues in WP pages I visit, and contributing new content if I can, even though my wife mocks me for it). --AlexChurchill 09:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Well there's a HUGE archive of discussion that talks about why they were removed, the good, the bad, and everything in between. Your comments are pretty much a retread. If you want, go read a bunch of the discussions. But the main problem? WP was *NEVER* 'safe' as you put it. Before the large mass revomal, there were still MANY articles without any spoiler warnings (almost any Final Fantasy and any Opera page, for instance). In fact, I'd say it's MUCH better now -- think about it, if you're expecting a warning (like you seemed to have), and it's not there, then it's worse than it not being expected in the first place.

As for 'safe'? Well, a lot of people would consider a number of photos and articles on profanity and other issues to be 'unsafe', but yet there's near-universal agreement about keeping those as they are. Why should spoiler warnings be any different? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. I've read a lot of the archive, but it is rather overwhelming in volume and hard to filter down to the actual points. It seems to me that individual pages which are missing spoiler warnings can have them easily added (as people keep doing to pages even now), and it's a matter of what the policy should be. And as for safety of other topics, the point is it's very easy to include the spoiler warning template, it can be easily skipped over by those who don't require it, and it provides immense service that makes the encyclopedia far more useful. It seems like in the same way that everyone knows Misplaced Pages's bad at webcomics, the reputation of Misplaced Pages's coverage for all of fiction is going to drop rapidly. (The first few pages of Googling for "Misplaced Pages Spoiler-warning -site:wikipedia.org" suggest that the majority of the internet wanted spoiler warnings and disapproves of their removal.) And this will be sad, because I like Misplaced Pages, and I'm sad to see it go this way.

But I'm not expecting anything to change because of this one comment. I'm just surprised that the actions of a vocal minority have been allowed to set the new policy, and just wanted to log a vote for reinstating them when the matter next comes up for discussion. --AlexChurchill 12:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

For the heck of it, I just did such a search. Outside a reference to WP spoiling HP Deathly Hollows in the first line (before the book was out, mind you), the first reference to WP spoiling was in the 21st entry, and all it says was "Its the dang Misplaced Pages that spoils things for me ". It's not until the 23rd that a truly relevant link comes up, to a forum, which pretty much rehashes this page, including such wonderful comments as "There's a big hole in my life. I guess I'll have to fill it with alcohol. Thanks a lot, Jimmy Wales. Ass.", and from the other side "People who care about spoilers and spoiler warnings enough to moan about something like this could do with a visit from the clue doctor to give them a few shots of HOLY SHIT I CAN'T BELIEVE THAT A PERSON COULD HAVE SUCH FUCKED UP PRIORITIES AND SUCH A SHELTERED EXISTENCE."...so yeah. But a bit down, a VERY interesting comment that says things perfexctly, IMO: So maybe wikipedia is trying to be more -pedia and less what wiki- has become. I can't honestly blame them. If they hope to remain relevant, they can't become so user influenced that all objectivity is lost.

But anyway, that seems to be about the only real place there's any discussion within the first 50 or so entries. So I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with that. Spammy post, but eh... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 13:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Melodia offered a good summary, but I would add a couple of points.

The premise that spoiler warnings were deleted by a "vocal minority" is very much disputed. There is anecdotal evidence for and against that assumption. Before the so-called "mass removals," there were warnings on about 45,000 articles, which is less than half of the articles that theoretically should have had them. This is certainly one piece of evidence that the majority either opposes the warnings or doesn't care either way, as otherwise they should have been much more prevalent.

One unsolved problem is that every reader has a different perspective on how much of the plot is allowed to be disclosed without "spoiling it." For episodic fiction (TV shows, webcomics, serial novels, film franchises), some editors believe that only the most recently-disclosed plot details need to be spoiler-protected. In an article on a recurring character, the warnings might surround only the latest events in that character's fictional life. But this is helpful only to readers who are caught up to the exact point in the story that the editor predicted. Those who have gone beyond that don't need the warnings, and those who've gone less far are going to have earlier parts of the story spoiled. Marc Shepherd 15:51, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

There's no evidence that there was a theoretical deficiency of spoiler warnings. Take away stubs with no spoilers, and 45,000 is about right. As for the reduced usefulness for researching new fiction, it's irrelevant to the anti-spoiler camp; they prefer their self-invented definition of 'encyclopedia'.--Nydas 21:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

There's no evidence that 45,000 was the correct figure, either. Marc Shepherd 12:20, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

So maybe wikipedia is trying to be more -pedia and less what wiki- has become. I can't honestly blame them. If they hope to remain relevant, they can't become so user influenced that all objectivity is lost. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 21:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

What do have SWs to do with objectivity? They're no more related to NPOV, verifiability or accuracy than a choice of spelling, article structure or headings. To Alex - I agree with you, I feel same way; in the meantime, you may consider having userbox template on your user page like this: {{Userboxtop|Userboxes}} {{User:Kizor/User spoilertags}} {{Userboxbottom}} Samohyl Jan 06:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Ironic, Melodia, considering that that comment falls under the umbrella of user influence. Oh no, a paradoxical conundrum! Misplaced Pages will crumble under it's own weight! Whatever shall we do? ~_^ Kuronue | Talk 13:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi AlexChurchill, it's difficult to summarize a million-some bytes of disputatious debate into a nutshell. As I've put the story together from the pro-tag view:

In May 2007, a reasonable good-writing manifesto intended to prevent spoiler notices from influencing the structure of articles, got carried away into a bigoted vendetta against mostly young consumers of narrative suspense (which spoilers break), evolved into a majoritarian do-it-because-we-said-so force, overrode compromise consensus while editing the spoiler guide, and was then enforced by ongoing search-and-destroy operations against spoiler-tags, as justified by the majoritarian-forced editing of the spoiler guide. There has long been a workable compromise on the table of good article-writing structure, combined with using spoiler tags hidden by default (you would need to turn them on), but it's going to take a long time to balance out the majoritarians with compromise consensus.

"Notices"? Oh yes, it turns out that spoiler tags aren't "warnings" or "alerts" by dictionary definition, because spoiler disappointment isn't dangerous or unsafe. The opponents have seized on that hyped "warning" misusage to distract from a compromise using the "no disclaimers" (of danger) policy. Correctly calling them "spoiler notices" (a type of content notice like the disambiguation notices) makes that debate distraction go away.

By poll, about 40+% of readers/editors want spoiler tags. This is a large minority, but as a minority rights issue it's only of middling importance. I've estimated that the public issue to restore spoiler tags is only five months into a one to two year campaign. Two external wildcards are that big publishing/Hollywood profits and perhaps a million web posters indirectly support the use of spoiler notices. The SanFrancisco Chronicle has already declared the immorality of spoilers, which hints that moral citizens might not want to donate money to "spoiler sites".

I agree with Samohyl Jan that the {{User:Kizor/User spoilertags}} is a useful way to express your disappointment at the loss of all but a few temporary, token spoiler notices. Tell your friends too. Milo 15:31, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It was a deletion debate

Milomedes states, inter alia:

In May 2007, a reasonable good-writing manifesto intended to prevent spoiler notices from influencing the structure of articles, got carried away into a bigoted vendetta...

Milomedes has his facts wrong. The change in the spoiler tag guideline came from a deletion debate about the old spoiler tag guideline, which for policy reasons was changed into a Request for comment on the guideline. .

Milomedes's central allegation, that "a reasonable good-writing manifesto intended to prevent spoiler notices from influencing the structure of articles, got carried away" is thus difficult to interpret unless you think that deletion of the old spoiler warning guideline was simply "intended to prevent spoiler notices from influencing the structure of articles." But that is again contradicted by the facts. Phil Sandifer's proposal shows his declared intention in listing the guideline for deletion:

The worst instance I've found yet is The Crying Game, where the twist ending makes the film a major film for anyone interested in LGBT cinema. Spoiler warning says that can't go in the lead. Misplaced Pages: Lead section says the lead has to function as a short article unto itself. WP:NPOV says all major perspectives must be mentioned in an article. You can pick any two of the policies and successfully apply them to The Crying Game. Since we can't get rid of NPOV, either spoilers or lead sections need to go. .

Since that proposal in mid-May, David Gerard's suggestion of "severely restrict to very recent or unreleased fiction. has been more-or-less fulfilled, and this has taken place in the context of a rewrite of the guideline that sets far more reasonable criteria for their use. --Tony Sidaway 18:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

What about the aggressive trashing of NPOV with 'fans-only', 'out in the US' or 'everyone knows'?--Nydas 19:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

That's more of a systemic bias, really. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 19:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Possibly. But actually I've no idea what Nydas is referring to. What does the phrase "'fans-only', 'out in the US' or 'everyone knows'" mean? --Tony Sidaway 20:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Nydas thinks that the current spoiler-tag policy makes Misplaced Pages a "fans-only" environment, presumably because fans are the only people who already know the plot, and therefore are in no danger of being "spoiled." As usual, he is selective about his facts, but we've come to expect that. Marc Shepherd 20:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. If that's really what he means, that doesn't seem to be a serious argument, it's all of a piece with Milomedes' talk of "a bigoted vendetta against mostly young consumers of narrative suspense", which seems to me more an attempt to talk up a minor issue into something that sounds more terrible. --Tony Sidaway 05:08, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not a vendetta against the young, it's against non-fans. The aim of the anti-spoiler campaign is to punish or 'burn' them, and you have stated that they are perverse halfwits or have 'demons'. Spoiler warnings aren't a big issue in themselves, but the mentality of the anti-spoiler campaign is symptomatic of larger problems.--Nydas 07:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The real situation is actually the opposite.

Some of the editors most passionate about adding spoiler tags are editing articles on serial fiction (TV series, comics, etc.). Do you know what they do? They spoiler-protect just the most recently-disclosed plot events. The only readers who benefit from this strategy are the fans who've seen every episode but the most recent one(s). Readers who are farther behind, or who are non-fans, get no benefit whatsoever, because the articles are full of un-tagged spoilers.

Indeed, the presence of spoiler tags in these articles may lend false comfort. Readers may think that the untagged portions of the articles do not disclose "significant plot details," but this isn't the case. If the template were called {{spoiler of the most recent episode}}, it would be more accurate. Marc Shepherd 12:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

How is that the opposite situation? The editors most passionate about removing spoiler tags are most likely to pause over franchises they like or consider important. The people you describe are just trying to live up to guideline as written.--Nydas 18:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I am talking about the people who add the tags, not the people who remove them. And what I observe is that the people adding them are often doing so from a fan-centric, in-universe perspective. In other words, they are making the articles more fan-focused, not less. This is precisely the opposite of what you have always suggested that spoiler tags would do. Marc Shepherd 18:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I find it interesting that many of the editors involved in the spoiler tag removals (User:JzG, User:Misza13, User:David Gerard and myself, for example) do not happen to be from the US and do not have a strong editing background in "fan" articles. I wonder what it is that makes Nydas think we edit US-centric and fan-only. I get the impression that we have moved away from a heavily US-influenced Usenet idea of warnings for things the US population considers "spoilers" to a more neutral way of editing. Kusma (talk) 08:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to have to edit fan articles to have a fan-centric worldview. It's a fair bet the editors involved will favour anime and video games over spy novels and historical romances. Hence the solitary 'permitted' spoiler tag being on an anime character awaiting translation. The situation is the same for Russian mystery novel Coronation, or the Last of the Romanovs (no spoilers yet, but it may gain some), though the chances of it getting spoiler tags are non-existant.

It's ironic that you mention USENET given that this campaign was basically decided on that anachronism, the Misplaced Pages mailing list. Spoiler warnings are used occasionally in the online mainstream media, it's not the preserve of USENET any more.--Nydas 18:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Tony (18:14) wrote: "It was a deletion debate" – "Milomedes has his facts wrong" Hm, if you are suggesting that a manifesto somehow can't keynote a deletion debate, that would be your rhetorical misunderstanding, not my wrong facts. COED "manifesto":

noun (pl. manifestos) a public declaration of policy and aims.

"Phil Sandifer's proposal shows his declared intention in listing the guideline for deletion: 'The worst instance I've found yet is The Crying Game...' " Tsk, tsk, you selectively quoted Phil's second paragraph with an expanded example, instead of the first paragraph where lies the original manifesto. You also didn't do enough research to discover that Phil re-edited his original one-paragraph manifesto. That second paragraph didn't exist until after ThuranX (21:36) & David Gerard (21:38) had posted in reply. Here is Phil's original, single manifesto paragraph:

Misplaced Pages:Spoiler warning 21:31, 15 May 2007 Phil Sandifer wrote: "This policy is a flat contradiction of the much more important Misplaced Pages:Lead section, and, worse, is used to justify actively bad article writing where key aspects of a topic are buried outside of the lead. In its worst manifestations, such as The Crying Game, this is used to bury entire perspectives on the movie (i.e. LGBT perspectives) outside of the lead where they belong. The entire policy encourages writing articles in a way that is organized around spoiler warnings instead of sensible portrayal of information, and has gone egregiously wrong (highlights including spoiler warnings on Night (book), The Book of Ruth, and Romeo and Juliet). The policy is overwhelmingly being used to make articles worse, not better, and for that needs to go." "Phil Sandifer 21:31, 15 May 2007"

Ok, now that we're working with Phil's original source text, let's align your skewed reasoning to it.

Tony (18:14) wrote: 'Milomedes's central allegation, that "a reasonable good-writing manifesto intended to prevent spoiler notices from influencing the structure of articles, got carried away" is thus difficult to interpret unless you think that deletion of the old spoiler warning guideline was simply "intended to prevent spoiler notices from influencing the structure of articles". But that is again contradicted by the facts.' Oh? Let's examine the facts of what Phil wrote in the first sentence.

Phil (15 May 2007, 21:31) wrote: "This policy is a flat contradiction of the much more important Misplaced Pages:Lead section, and, worse, is used to justify actively bad article writing where key aspects of a topic are buried outside of the lead."

Milo (15:31) wrote: "intended to prevent spoiler notices from influencing the structure of articles." While Phil and others "got carried away" with intentions beyond "simply", Phil substantially did intend to prevent spoiler notices from influencing the structure of articles – the lead component in this case – so my central allegation is fact-based in that regard. "Got carried away" being a metaphor does requires interpretation, but by your own analysis will not be difficult to interpret.
Q.E.D., Phil's manifesto reads as I summarized it. Milo 13:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Phil's second paragraph was visible for almost the entire deletion debate, which was started with the intention to delete Misplaced Pages:Spoiler (that is why the debate was at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Spoiler warning). Your decision to concentrate on the first paragraph seems quite arbitrary. Kusma (talk) 13:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

"Your decision to concentrate on the first paragraph seems quite arbitrary" Not at all arbitrary, since the first paragraph contains a statement of principle for the manifesto, where one might expect to find it in any persuasive writing.†

A manifesto is an activist statement of philosophical principle. In writing, principles are top-level statements that hierarchically determine the suitable choice of subsequent analyses, examples, rules, proposed actions, and other supporting details. For example, consider the following simple manifesto:

(hypothetical quotation:) In principle, all humans are created equal. Slavery makes humans grotesquely unequal. Therefore slavery is unprincipled. Therefore slavery is bad. Therefore we shall break bad slavery laws to free the slaves.

One writes the principle(s) first, because people are more likely to understand and be persuaded by the details if they already understand the big picture. If the details of breaking slave laws were placed first, and the principle last, fewer people would be persuaded that breaking of slave laws is principled, and therefore is a morally-justified civil disobedience.

†Sometimes preceding the statement of principle, there is a preamble describing a compelling belief or experience which motivates the manifesto, but a preamble is technically unnecessary (and Phil did not use one). This top-down writing structure is also the basis for most persuasive writing including encyclopedia articles. Milo 23:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting footnote....

Since The Crying Game has come up a lot about 'ingrained into pop culture' and all that, what I find VERY interesting, is how The Simpsons thought it was OK to spoil that plot point a mere half a year after the movie came out -- in the episode Marge in Chains (here has the quote). Just a bit of a curveball...♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 19:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)