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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Robofish (talk | contribs) at 15:57, 15 October 2007 (→Psychiatric abuse). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Psychiatric abuse

AfDs for this article:
Psychiatric abuse (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This article was deleted through its prior AfD. DRV determined that a relisting was warranted, so that the full range of sources and improvements added during the AfD could be properly evaluated. Consult the DRV for a list of these new sources. Concerns remain regarding whether the article constitutes OR/SYN or WP:COATRACK. Deletion is on the table, and creative solutions like renaming or merging are encouraged. Xoloz 12:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

  • delete there are about 3 articles such as antipsychiatry Scientology and psychiatry that all the content of this could be 'incorporated into or probably already is present in. Maybe create a redirect to antipsych.Merkinsmum 14:26, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • delete - The collation of items under this heading implies psychiatry is inherently abusive. If we keep this we may as well have Surgical abuse and Abuse by Republicans. Are the individual episodes noteworthy? absolutely. Are there controversial ethical issues in psychiatry? You bet! A much beeter structure would be an Ethical issues/controversies of psychiatry page and structured examples of how events arise. It has parallels with allowing a white supremacist to write articles on inferiorities of other races and presenting it as neutral. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete per Casliber. I agree that an Ethical issues/controversies format would be much more likely to be acceptable. Sχeptomaniac 15:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong delete; any information found in this article has better homes elsewhere (some good examples given above, as well as the * government abuse of psychiatry articles). The rest is either original research, or carefully cherry-picked snippets to push a point of view. For that matter; the very article title begs the question and is unsalvageable POV. — Coren  16:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep but Move to a less-inflammatory title. I'd call it "Scientologist views concerning 'psychiatric abuse'", and incorporate that into one article. While I strongly disagree with Tom Cruise, et al., about the evils of psychiatry, I say, "Know thy enemy". I think we should be aware of this part of Scientologist propaganda. If we don't know what their argument is, how do we spot the flaws in the reasoning? One can refuse to read Mein Kampf as a matter of principle, or one can read it as a record of someone's bizarre conspiracy theory. Mandsford 17:07, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete After reading Scientology and psychiatry (which Merkinsmum linked above) and the article on Citizens Commission on Human Rights (linked from the first), it is apparent that this is a PoV fork and has no place in Misplaced Pages. Delete and salt. (This represents a change from my position in the original discussion, in which I was not opposed to recreation under a different name. After further reading, I am convinced that it should not be in Misplaced Pages in this format. I strongly believe that Misplaced Pages is not a vehicle for the propagation of Scientologist dogma.) Horologium t-c 17:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Piggybacking on ideas raised in the first AfD (by The Anome), I've proposed in article Talk that we set up a disambiguation page. As above, the DAB could be a more NPOV Ethical issues in psychiatry, or the like, with a redirect from Psychiatric abuse. Or vice versa. As you'll see from the proposal, it already lists the specific links (e.g., for professional ethics, political abuses, anti-P, CofS). If we go this route, the AfD would close with permission to redirect (or disambiguate) from the existing title. HG | Talk 17:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The DAB is now set up as Ethical issues in psychiatry. Perhaps efforts to Rename/Move and fine tune the DAB should be discussed on its Talk page. Thanks. HG | Talk 17:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete and start again under the title Psychiatric ethics or Ethics in psychiatry. To move in this direction with the present content will be too difficult. These alternate titles will provide an NPOV framework from which to begin. Marskell 17:46, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletions. —Espresso Addict 18:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete - Article title is too general. The result the article is a collection of unrelated subjects. The lead sentence says it all: Psychiatric abuse is a generic term for real and alleged mistreatment of people under psychiatric care by doctors, middle-medical personnel or orderlies. However, the reference to that sentence specifically refers to the USSR and says: Based on the generally accepted definition, we correctly term the utilisation of psychiatry for the punishment of political dissidents as torture.??? Is it like Child abuse? Maybe Psychiatric abuse means abuse of psychiatrists. --Mattisse 20:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete unprofessional, overbroad, vague, even self-contradictory at times. I'd suggest a redirect to medical ethics, if a redlink is deemed too tantalizing. The disambig solution proposed by HG above should be deleted as well. ˉˉ╦╩ 21:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • speedy keep: Encyclopedic topic; should not be deleted based on justifications that amount to little more than politically correct doublespeak. Ombudsman 22:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. A collection of cherry-picked events that are not given just treatment by being bundled into this agenda pushing mish-mash. There may be the makings of an article somewhere in here, relating to to ethics. But this article, titled as it is, isn't it. --Escape Orbit 22:43, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Many editors noted the original research and synthetic aspects of this article in the original AfD. I see no reason to disagree with that. The article is unsalvageable from an NPOV perspective, given that it was evidently created with the highly POV premise of exposing the supposed evils of psychiatry (as reflected in its title). Articles that are inherently POV have no place here, and they don't become "encyclopedic" merely by virtue of serving the political agenda of a particular faction. I should add that this isn't exclusively "Scientologycruft". The original author of the article is a self-declared Scientologist, so Scientology's anti-psychiatric dogma is certainly a factor. However, the anti-psychiatric movement involves more than just Scientology - it's part of a wider fringe anti-medicine movement (anti-vaccines, anti-pharma etc). Some of the !votes here clearly reflect that agenda (check out User:Ombudsman's user page and contributions, for instance). -- ChrisO 23:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Move to new title, give it a massive rewrite, then keep. Delete (see below). While this article is a POV-laden mess, I reluctantly recognise that the concept is sufficiently notable for inclusion, albeit with a considerably less inflammatory name. I suggest Psychiatry controversy, as it could then be merged with the fairly neutral and well-sourced material at Psychiatry#Controversy to create a new article, covering these allegations from the anti-psychiatry movement together with any other controversies. Essentially, this article isn't worthy of inclusion, but there probably is room for a neutral, referenced article on allegations of malpractice in psychiatry. I don't mind if this gets deleted, but I'm just trying to provide suggestions for a more constructive alternative. Terraxos 01:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Essentially, the various allegations made by the anti-psychiatry movement. I don't think they're remotely justified, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't cover them. On second thoughts though, that material is already covered at anti-psychiatry - so this article probably should be deleted after all. Terraxos 15:56, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete with a recommendation for Salting the earth so this POV-coatrack-tree can never grow again. Clear POV fork, Scientologycruft. DEVS EX MACINA pray 04:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete again. POV fork and WP:COATRACK composed of carefully mined snippets of individually notable incidents mushed together under a hopelessly arbitrary and POV umbrella. What's wrong with the handful of POV forks we already have which are dedicated to critcizing psychiatry? Do we need another? There is a bit of novel, notable material here which could be renamed to political abuse of psychiatry or merged into psikhushka; the rest should be merged into Psychiatry#controversy, Anti-psychiatry, Biopsychiatry controversy, Scientology and psychiatry, or any of the other POV forks we already enjoy. MastCell 04:55, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep, same reasoning as with the first AfD. — xDanielx /C 04:59, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. The Scientology viewpoint is only one aspect of the article. This article deserves a place on its own merit. Axl 08:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. The article is well sourced to reliable and reputable independent sources. The article title, although accused of being POV, is itself well sourced. There is a place for this article. POV issues will be a concern, but that is an editing issue. We should not deal with controversial issues by deleting them! Other articles may contain similar material. However, of the other articles offered as examples, they are in worse shape than this one. In any case, if material here should be elsewhere, then deletion is not the answer. Material can be moved. The article can become a redirect. GFDL requires that the article history remain available. There are some peculiarly vehement calls for deletion citing arguments not usually considered arguments for deletion (some original research; material exists elsewhere). There seems to be some raw nerve here with a lot of people. Perhaps I need to encounter scientology to understand. I think these people should calm down. The subject exists and is covered by suitable sources. The article is appropriate for the encyclopedia. --SmokeyJoe 09:30, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Original research, synthesis of loosely related topics the authors feel are related. Then there is "Psychiatric abuse is defined as human rights abuses such as torture by psychiatric scholars," which calls up images of how these scholars might go about torturing their victims. There could be separate articles about Soviet use (and more recent Russian use) of mental hospitals to silence dissidents, which has little in common with overuse of electroshock or lobotomies in other countries. Edison 15:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I ROFLed at the concept of "how these scholars might go about torturing their victims." Through interminable lectures in med school, perhaps? :-) -- ChrisO 22:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Having an interest in medical history and also having participated in Clinical Governance and other activities in the medical and mental health field in the past, I have been naturally interested to see the concept that other people have of this subject.
Historically speaking, the Maltreatment of the mentally vulnerable is of great interest and importance. It provided the fodder to start the debate on ethics. Also, the development and practice of keeping medical statistics stated in the asylums (round about 1840) long before Florence Nightingale compiled her statistic of the Crimea dead, dyeing and recovered. However 'Medical Ethics' in its modern form is only part of the picture and so, to shave bits off this subject to fit, will not do. Today, in the National Health Service of the United Kingdom, discussions about 'abuse' would be framed within the terms of SUI's ( Serious Untoward Incidents ). Then get given a cause, classified as say a 'supervisory oversights' or perhaps 'lack of appropriate training' etc. See Serious Untoward Incidents for definition.
However, even this (SUI's) covers only part of the maltreatment that the mentally vulnerable can suffer. Before I make any contribution to this article however, I am happy to wait to see if someone else would add the material on the aspects I am most aware of and thus save me the trouble ( I am naturally lazy like that). I am shocked, surprised and disappointed though in some of the other comments that are being given for deletion. Not only this it appears, articles in development are now being AfD quickly after creation (even Jimmy Wales had his first attempt on Mzoli's deleted after just 21 minutes). It prevents other editors broadening the scope, so making it sound less like 'say' a coat-hanger which some have levelled at this article even before it has really got started.
The existing title is not the best I agree, it is in my view limiting the range of abuse that the mentally impaired receive else where, both in developed and developing countries. It would be better to be more inclusive and call it something like Maltreatment suffered by the mentally vulnerable. This would help open it up to nurses, solicitors, policemen and the like, who have come across many first hand experiences of abuse (of all types) and what steps need to be taken to safeguard against it.
I can appreciate that many of the editors who are trying to vote this off are perhaps too young and inexperienced to have either experienced at close quarters or come into contact with some of the more unpleasant aspects of human nature but to AfD this article, is not only -in my opinion- to sweep such things under the carpet, but it also smacks a little of 'denial'. I would like to suggest that it be renamed Maltreatment of the mentally vulnerable and have 'Psychiatric abuse' as a 'redirect' because that is the common vernacular term. And lets not be squeamishly PC and childish about it, the phrase can be used as a subsection within the article. --Aspro 20:36, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
You have an interesting idea for an article, Maltreatment of the mentally vulnerable . Since you'd like to include police, nurses, etc., perhaps you can find scholarly sources that discuss this broad sweep? Meanwhile, the need for such an article would be better discussed elsewhere. The AfD focuses solely on this article under its existing title and scope. HG | Talk 20:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
What haven't you understood? As expressed else where at the Pump. It is getting harder to add new articles because of the demand for instant perfection in all aspects. The strength ( if I can express it that way) of WP was in the past that the article benefited from the sum knowledge of many editors to develop it. How can you discus scope? It is a new article. Now with most important articles covered in WP, there seems to have arisen a 'font of proof reading clerks' that don't want to do any of the hard work themselves but would rather jump on any deviation from policy by those that see gaps in coverage and try to cover it. So why the AfD before you know what the final article will be?--Aspro 21:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Because of the whole premise of the article Aspro. That is the title strongly implies that the psychiatry is inherently abusive. There are other issues too further up the list. And deleting this article is not deleting content.cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:53, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep as before, sufficient references are available to support the inclusion of this topic under this title, and the article should continue to be improved through normal editing with the full history and talk page discussions preserved. As Smokey Joe point out above, many of the deletion arguments are novel interpretations of policy, and personal POV. Dhaluza 01:37, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
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