Talk:Tolkien's legendarium - Misplaced Pages

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Talk:Tolkien's legendarium/Middle-earth Cycle contains text moved from Middle-earth Cycle to be merged to Tolkien's legendarium after re-writing. Carcharoth 16:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

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Relevant citations

From Steuard Jensen's FAQ:

Did the events in The Lord of the Rings take place on another planet or what? Short answer: No, on Earth.

"Those days, the Third Age of Middle-earth, are now long past, and the shape of all lands has been changed; but the regions in which Hobbits then lived were doubtless the same as those in which they still linger: the North-West of the Old World, east of the Sea." (FOTR, Prologue)

The Calendar in the Shire differed in several features from ours. The year no doubt was of the same length (*), for long ago as those times are now reckoned in years and lives of men, they were not very remote according to the memory of the Earth.

(*) 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes, 46 seconds. (ROTK, Appendix D)

'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in .... And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet. (Letters, #165)

I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. ... The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it feels familiar, even if a little glorified by the enchantment of distance in time. (Letters, #183)

...I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap(*) in time between the Fall of Barad-dur and our Days is sufficient for 'literary credibility', even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of 'pre-history'.

I have, I suppose, constructed an imaginary time, but kept my feet on my own mother-earth for place. I prefer that to the contemporary mode of seeking remote globes in 'space'. However curious, they are alien, and not lovable with the love of blood-kin. Middle-earth is ... not my own invention. It is a modernization or alteration ... of an old word for the inhabited world of Men, the oikoumene: middle because thought of vaguely as set amidst the encircling Seas and (in the northern-imagination) between ice of the North and the fire of the South. O. English middan-geard, mediaeval E. midden-erd, middle-erd. Many reviewers seem to assume that Middle-earth is another planet!

(*) I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh. (Letters, #211)

...I have not made any of the peoples on the 'right' side, Hobbits, Rohirrim, Men of Dale or of Gondor, any better than men have been or are, or can be. Mine is not an 'imaginary' world, but an imaginary historical moment on 'Middle-earth' -- which is our habitation. (Letters, #183)

Was the northwest of Middle-earth, where the story takes place, meant to actually be Europe? Short-ish answer: "Yes, but a qualified yes. There is no question that Tolkien had northwestern Europe in mind when he described the terrain, weather, flora, and landscapes of Middle-earth... However, the geographies simply don't match."

... if it were 'history', it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or 'cultures') into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region . I could have fitted things in with greater versimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; ... (Letters, #211)

... As for the shape of the world of the Third Age, I am afraid that was devised 'dramatically' rather than geologically, or paleontologically. I do sometimes wish that I had made some sort of agreement between the imaginations or theories of the geologists and my map a little more possible. But that would only have made more trouble with human history. (Letters, #169)

The action of the story takes place in the North-west of 'Middle-earth', equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. ... If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy. (Letters, #294; note that "northwestern Europe was used for comparison rather than equation".)

Was the Shire meant to be England? Short answer: It was based upon England.

is in fact more or less a Warwickshire village of about the period of the Diamond Jubilee ... {Letters #178)

But, of course, if we drop the 'fiction' of long ago, 'The Shire' is based on rural England and not any other country in the world... (Letters, #190)

There is no special reference to England in the 'Shire' -- except of course that as an Englishman brought up in an 'almost rural' village of Warwickshire on the edge of the prosperous bourgeoisie of Birmingham (about the time of the Diamond Jubilee!) I take my models like anyone else -- from such 'life' as I know. (Letters, #181)

-- Uthanc 00:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

These are all great citations (some of which are already used in various Misplaced Pages articles, some of which aren't), but this is missing the point somewhat. We are not discussing whether or not Tolkien's stories form an interconnected mass that we want to call a legendarium, but what sources we can cite that justify us calling it a legendarium. The correct place to look is (a) the History of Middle-earth series; (b) Tolkien's Letters; and (c) the book Tolkien's Legendarium. Then we can justify our use of the term, and point to various sources that define and use the term. Carcharoth 01:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify further, the term seems to be used both to describe the effect Tolkien was aiming to create - that of a genuine legendarium - and also as a blanket term describing the collection of stories he wrote. ie. (1) Tolkien aimed to create a mythology for England, a legendarium. (2) The History of Middle-earth series covers the history of the varied collection of stories known as Tolkien's legendarium. I've now found some cites from Letters. Carcharoth 01:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

"This legendarium ends with a vision of the end of the world, its breaking and remaking, and the recovery of the Silmarilli and the 'light before the Sun'..." (Letters, #131, c.1951 - the long one to Milton Waldman, describing The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings)
"...my legendarium, especially the 'Downfall of Numenor' which lies immediately behind The Lord of the Rings, is based on my view: that Men are essentially mortal and must not try to become 'immortal' in the flesh." (Letters, #153, 1954)
"Actually in the imagination of this story we are now living on a physically round Earth. But the whole 'legendarium' contains a transition from a flat world to a globe..." (Letters, #154, 1954)
"But the beginning of the legendarium, of which the Trilogy is part (the conclusion), was an attempt to reorganise some of the Kalevala..." (Letters, #163, 1955)

Those four quotes are the only ones referenced in the Letters index. Incidentially, that last quote is a good example of Tolkien adopting the usage of 'trilogy' to refer to LotR... :-) Carcharoth 01:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I've now updated Tolkien's legendarium with this material and more. Hopefully someone will tidy it up. Carcharoth 02:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Great - but I was responding to Mirlen's request for "geographical" quotes. Uthanc 03:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Oops. I see that now. Sorry! :-) Carcharoth 03:12, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

No harm done. On the LOTR Talk page (archived?) it was explained that Tolkien used "trilogy" when corresponding with others who did; the letter is used in the article. Uthanc 03:17, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah. That explains it. Thanks for starting the tidying of the article. Hopefully the references will get sorted out properly at some point as well. Well, I'll do that now! Carcharoth 11:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

(End copied section - new comments below please)

Middle-earth Cycle

User:Steuard wrote somewhere that he'd never seen this term used before, the discussion groups on Usenet used "Middle-earth legendarium" or something like it. And Tolkien didn't use the term himself. Any chance of it being merged with this? Uthanc 02:28, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

See note at top of page. Carcharoth 16:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Neologism

"Legendarium" is a neologism, and it's use should be discouraged. It's use by the author Tolkien, to refer to his own work, and subsequently by certain fans to discuss this work, make it a highly obscure and self-referential fan-boy shibboleth. Nowhere is it clearly defined (what is it? Tolkiens notes, first, second, third drafts of the Silmarillion material, the published works, all of it, some of it, none of it?) and more importantly, nowhere is it defined by verifiable, reputable third party sources. It's not defined at

IMHO, this article should be deleted, and all references to it removed. Perhaps a paragraph in Tolkiens biography (..he called his works a "legendarium") is all that is really required. --Davémon 12:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel that "legendarium" deserves merit unto itself as a word, rather than being attached primarily to Tolkien, even if he coined the word. If not, then a suitable, extant alternative should be suggested, like "compendium" or "mythos". (Please refer to Misplaced Pages:Avoid neologisms) —Nahum Reduta 07:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Are there any sources which can be used to establish notability of the term? They would help the article. WP:NEO has already been refered to - the lack of verifiable, third party sources still needs to be addressed. --Davémon 08:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The history of the pages is a bit confused here. What should exist is Legendary (disambiguation), Legendarium and Tolkien's legendarium. Unfortunately, this edit redirected 'Legendarium' to here. There was a useful version of that page here, with plenty of sources ('The Ring of Words' is a good source for this, written by editors of the Oxford English Dictionary). I've now redirected 'Legendarium' back to 'Legendary (disambiguation)', to avoid this sort of confusion, and removed the hatnote at the top of this article. The material in that old version I pointed out should also be re-added, as it provides a source for what is being discussed here. Carcharoth 10:43, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

And now, addressing the neologism claims. Legendarium is not strictly a neologism, as it was previously an English word and was still in use in other languages at the time Tolkien resurrected the word. The term "Tolkien's legendarium" was not used by Tolkien himself, but is now an accepted term in Tolkien studies. It is used by Christopher Tolkien and Tom Shippey among others. Characterising the word and its use as a "self-referential fan-boy shibboleth" is simply incorrect and rude. Carcharoth 11:32, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

This version: here has no sources for "legendarium", nor sources for "Tolkien's Legendarium", but instead makes unreferenced claims that it is synonymous with "legendary". It's use by Christopher Tolkien and Tom Shippey do not stop it being a neologism (see WP:NEO#Reliable_sources_for_neologisms). Any definition of "Legendarium" (in "Ring of Words" or elsewhere) is simply not evidence for "Tolkiens Legendarium" being a wide-spread term for describing a specific subset of Tolkiens writing. The use in "Tolkien Studies", yet nowhere outside of it, accurately support the identification as a shibboleth. Apologies if that sounds rude - it wasn't meant to offend, but it does highlight a bias issue. The problems initially raised (reliable sources, clear definition) still need to be addressed. --Davémon 13:37, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

That version does have a source. It is not an inline citation, but look at the References section. "Peter Gilliver, Jeremy Marshall and Edmund Weiner (2006). The Ring of Words. Oxford & New York: Oxford University Press, 153–154. ISBN 0-19-861069-6." Now, get that book and read pages 153 to 154. That makes it clear this is not a neologism in the normal sense of that word. Maybe I will have to quote from the book to convince you. I've also looked at WP:NEO, and it says "we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term". I have done that. The Ring of Words is talking about the terms legendarium and legendary, not just using them. The definition does need work - I'll try and do that later on when I can get hold of the right books. One more thing - you are mixing up your capitalisations. Tolkien's Legendarium is the book. Tolkien's legendarium is Tolkien's legendarium. Legendarium is a word that existed before Tolkien used it! I really can't put it any clearer than that until I get hold of the right books later today. Carcharoth 14:55, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Whether the word was in use before Tolkien is irrelevant - the appropriation of it for a specific corpus of fiction makes it a neologism - it has been given a new meaning. "Ring of Words" does not define the term as specifically denoting a corpus of fiction, so is not a reliable, secondary source for the use given in this article. I look forward to the addition of a well referenced, clear definition of "Tolkiens legendarium" which relies on reliable secondary sources to the article. --Davémon 07:57, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I've added {{fact}} to the most fundamentally neologistic statements in the article - ie. the statements that define the term, but are not attributed. Finding sources for these stetements, or replacing them with citable statements will help prove the article isn't WP:NEO > WP:OR > WP:SYN. Please don't remove {{fact}} until a reference for the challenged statement has been found. {{fact}} should encourage editors to find sources and help ensure a reasonable time is given to finding the sources before the statements are removed. --Davémon 12:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I will be happy to provide references. Apologies for not finding time yesterday. I am glad to see that you have moved away from referring to 'legendarium' as a neologism, and are now referring to 'Tolkien's legendarium' as the neologism. That may be a more accurate statement. May I ask though: (1) what sources are suitable? and (2) when does a neologism stop being a neologism and become a standard if obscure term in a niche area? If you have an obscure scientific term, is it acceptable to refer to a dictionary of science to support a definition of the term? If so, why is it different for literary terms? Would something like the the J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia be acceptable? I suspect you are thinking of wanting examples of the term appearing in daily newspapers or something, but that standard is (a) too high for obscure terms; and (b) missing the point. Misplaced Pages doesn't have to be limited to the mainstream. You are unlikely to see the term Granulocyte macrophage colony-stimulating factor receptor used much outside of biochemstry journals, but does that mean it needs to have appeared in independent sources outside of the biochemistry area? Carcharoth 12:59, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

A clear definition of "Tolkiens legendarium" from the J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia or similar would be a fantastic addition to the article, a defintion from a published academic work outside purely-Tolkien-related scholarship (perhaps one that discusses verious "mythos"s, "canons" and "legendariums" (legendaria?) would be even better. A definition of "legendarium" from outside Tolkien scholarship would be great, and really strengthen the article.--Davémon 07:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

While 'legendarium' is an uncommon word it is not at all a 'neologism' or 'given a new meaning' here. Its use here means what it has always meant... a collected body of legends, synonymous with the more 'common' (in English) form 'legendary'. This can be seen in uses of it unrelated to Tolkien; e.g. the Anjou legendarium and The Great Austrian Legendarium. The term also appears in the lead of Misplaced Pages's Cthulhu Mythos article and hundreds of non-Tolkien pages indexed by Google. Use of the rare term 'legendarium' is no more 'original research' or 'improper synthesis' than Calabi–Yau manifold. It's an uncommon term being used exactly the way it is supposed to be. --CBD 16:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Citing useage, (whilst very educational - thank you!) isn't adequate evidence for non-neologism, (see WP:NEO#Reliable_sources_for_neologisms) the term should really be defined in a dictionary somewhere. --Davémon 07:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

The meaning hasn't really been changed, just applied to a specific body of work, as CBD said. Tolkien's Legendarium (Amazon, 1, 2, Google) is not by C. Tolkien but by others, and it even contains a piece called "The Development of Tolkien’s Legendarium". Now if anyone has that book, they could help. Are you expecting "Calabi–Yau manifold" to be in a dictionary as well? To older, more scholarly fans than I (child of the movies), when was the term first used? Uthanc 09:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Tolkien's legendarium, Middle-earth canon, The History of Middle-earth and The Silmarillion

I see that Davemon has tagged Middle-earth canon as unreferenced as well. My view is that the term Tolkien's legendarium and the concept of Middle-earth canon and the different versions and drafts of The Silmarillion (as well as the posthumous nature of The Silmarillion) need to be clearly explained in the context of the publication of The History of Middle-earth series. This could be done in a very short, brief fashion in one article, with some key references, and I think that might satisfy Davemon's concerns. One problem here is that Middle-earth canon is a descriptive title, rather than a neologism. It describes Tolkien's work in terms of the concept of canon. It doesn't claim that Middle-earth canon is a term. Tolkien's legendarium, however, most definitely is a term. I also take issue with his rejection of works by Tolkien scholars and Christopher Tolkien as "not independent". Would you reject work by Shakespeare scholars on Shakespeare as "not independent"? Where do we go from here? Carcharoth 13:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Davemon changed the top tag of Middle-earth canon back to "unreferenced" after I changed it to "refimprove", reasoning: "there isn't a single secondary source". But the text of "unreferenced" means "unreferenced"... Uthanc 16:30, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I think refimprove is better, but I've said elsewhere that I'm waiting until the weekend to do a proper improvement and referencing job. I somehow think that Davemon (who I'd like to thank for bringing these issues up - they needed to be tackled at some point) won't be satisfied with a sticky plaster job. :-) It might seem stressful at the moment, but if we provide more and better references, things should work out eventually and the articles will be the better for it. Repeat every few months and who knows where we will end up! Carcharoth 22:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no issue with works by academics who have written about Tolkien (or Shakespeare) and have their work published by an academic press. I think using Christopher Tolkien, and specifically HoME is problematic in discussing JRRs entire fictional corpus. CTs independence is questionable, he is both author of the published Silmarillion, and literary executor, so is hardly likely to be critical. IMHO references to primary sources are worse than none at all, as it gives the article a superficial appearance of being well-researched. I'm sure things will improve :-) --Davémon 07:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

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