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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Carcharoth (talk | contribs) at 10:24, 26 October 2007 (reply to BrownHairedGirl and make suggestion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 10:24, 26 October 2007 by Carcharoth (talk | contribs) (reply to BrownHairedGirl and make suggestion)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Gondor

Gondor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
  • Delete. Non-notable fictional location, fails WP:FICTION. I have noticed in the last few days that most of the articles in Category:Middle-earth locations contain no references to secondary sources, and many are entirely unreferenced. This article cites no references at all, although it implicitly cites Tolkein's own works, so I had tagged the article with {{nn}} and {{primarysources}}. Those tags were removed on the grounds that "Christopher Tolkein's work is a secondary source". I believe that this is wrong: as the article Christopher Tolkien makes clear, he edited collections of his fathers' work, completing some unfinished material, but the valuable work of an editor is not a secondary source. Per WP:OR, "secondary sources draw on primary sources to make generalizations or interpretive, analytical, or synthetic claims". Posthumous editions of unpublished works, so not meet that test, whether or not the editor completes unfinished material.
    I should stress that I have nothing against Tolkien, and I know that his works have amassed a huge cult following even before the release of the blockbuster films. The original works and the films are clearly very notable, as are some major characters and other details but that doesn't mean that every detail of the works is also notable. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:19, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
See also discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Middle-earth#Notability_of_articles. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 07:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • In any case, per WP:NOTE, "multiple sources are generally preferred" and the test is "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" (emphasis added by me). A compendium by the author's son and posthumous editor does not seem to me to be a remotely independent source. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Gondor, not notable? Seriously? If nothing else, the comparaison between Mordor, Gondor, and Rohiran and pre-WWII France, Britain and Nazi Germany is one of the mainstay in the debate about what Tolkien wanted to say about his times, if anything. That the article is written from an in-universe perspective is a problem, but not for deletion. Is there a template for "{{this-article-is-written-from-an-in-universe-perspective-and-therefore-not-encyclopedic}}? If there isn't, there should be.--victor falk 08:54, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment A large part of The Lord of the Rings is set in this country, much like the Death Star, Coruscant, and Tatooine in the Star Wars films. It's a major, not "minor place in Middle-earth". Off the top of my head, I can say that Gondor was originally "Ond" (from The Return of the Shadow), and it was modeled on Byzantium (from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien). The Gondorians are above other humans due in part to divine blessings which brought longevity and wisdom, but also because they are scholars (contrasted with the people of Rohan who are "unlearned".) They're descendants of the people of Atlantis, which Tolkien calls Númenór. If one were to find these statements in, say, The Atlas of Middle-earth, not written by any Tolkien, would this be accepted? This is what you're looking for, right? Uthanc 08:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply. The Atlas may well help verify points of fact, but the fact that place is mentioned in an atlas does not seem to me a point of "non-trivial" coverage. The other points you mention help to explain the interpretation of the places, but the decision on whether to keep the article rests not on interpretation of he stories, but on notability. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Major location in a major, classic, fantasy trilogy. This is not some minor location, it is the scene for a large part of Return of the King. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:07, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Obvious Keep This seems to be a troll :) See Tolkien research if you need pointers to secondary sources. Colonel Warden 09:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep on this and the rest of BrownHairedGirl's AfDs. They are grossly premature. The correct course of action should have been to tag them {{in-universe}} and allow the editors some time to assemble sources and improve the articles. This would be true even if the idea wasn't laughable that Gondor, a major setting in a major work of literature, is "non-notable". TCC (talk) (contribs) 09:51, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
    • If you find the idea laughable, then I'm sure you'll have no problem producing the references which establish notability. {{in-universe}} might be appropriate as an additional tag for such articles, but it doesn't cover the notability problems. As stated in the nomination, I would have been happy to leave time for improvement, but the tags were removed. However, it is perfectly proper to make an AfD nomination of an article for which notability has not been established. I have nominated only 4 articles, and if these articles are remotely as notable as commentators are claiming at AfD, then the 7 day span of an AfD should be plenty of time to accumulate the minimal referencing required to establish notablity. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Comment I addressed this at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Minor places in Beleriand -- and incidentally, you could have saved a lot of repetition all around by consolidating at least the "minor places" nominations into one discussion. I'll say it again though -- that you didn't bother to exercise the minimal courtesy of explaining your reason for placing the nn tag -- in this case clearly inappropriate on its face -- is the reason it was summarily removed. If you want to know why people think you're trolling, that's why. You have acted like a troll even if that was not your intention. I don't say that as a personal attack, but by way of explaining the reactions you're likely to get. All these articles are supported by a large and active WikiProject, which I guarantee you will not react very kindly. TCC (talk) (contribs) 10:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Responding to BrownHairedGirl: to be fair, some subjects (not this one) do need more than 7 days to track down sources that imply notability, so "7 days should be enough time" is not always a valid argument, regardless of the amount of notability people are claiming. I am sure that this article can be adequately referenced, but the other three AfDs (minor places in) will probably need more time to discuss whether the whole strategy of merging minor locations is viable and how best to do the merging (which is in itself a long-term project as you've found out at the WikiProject talk page). Would you consider withdrawing those other three AfDs as a gesture of good faith, and to allow people to concentrate their efforts on this article? The minor places articles can then be debated at the WikiProject talk page. Does that seem reasonable? Carcharoth 10:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong keep - This should never have been nominated for deletion. It's a very notable subject!

DarthSidious 10:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)DarthSidious

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