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Current issues

Dozens of bad-quality edits as a result of a coursework assignment

It seems that a lecturer/tutor at Macquarie University has set his students an assignment which involves adding contributions to Misplaced Pages (see page 25 of this).

In recent days, this has resulted in large numbers of bad-quality, unsourced, POV essay-like edits from multiple new accounts (all containing "mas214" in the username); see e.g. the following edit histories: , , . (There are too many affected articles to list them all here...)

This was originally suspected as sockpuppetry, hence User:Icairns reported it here: Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets/TUMAS214; this report contains a list of the accounts involved (20 so far).

Any ideas on how to deal with this? Using Misplaced Pages as a testbench as part of a coursework assignment is just bad form; should we contact the tutor involved?

Regards, Oli Filth 16:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we should just treat them as normal editors, explaining how they can improve the quality of their contributions. A.Z. 16:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

My guess would be that these particular students will never use these accounts again, hence, will never read their talk pages, etc. But this problem will recur every time this course is run, which is why I suggest that the tutor be contacted. Oli Filth 16:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Tried that. The problem is they disappear as soon as they're done with their work, and none have them have tried to talk to any of us. The main problem, I think, is the root of this -- they're writing essays to put into wiki articles, which just isn't kosher because essays are POV'd almost by definition. I think the professor needs to understand and explain to the students that they should be adding cited facts, not essays. If they do that then this would be a great way to have the encyclopedia improved once a semseter. Gscshoyru 16:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

edit conflict — The response depends in part on what the assignment was, I think. This could be used as a learning experience in the area of collaborative working or the value of business rules (only using the term as it's generic = specifications for action and contribution) as part of an information product. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It's easy to give into the temptation of blocking the users and forgetting about it, but that's not really in the spirit of Misplaced Pages. I believe we should contact the course tutor and tell them that Misplaced Pages is free- they can make their own copy of relevant articles and host them on their own server for people to add to. Or if the tutor insists their students should add to Misplaced Pages, we should inform them they'll keep getting blocked and reverted if they don't follow our policies. --Deskana (talk) 16:54, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how they are any different than other new users who don't understand what we are about. 1 != 2 16:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Because the individual users are transient. It's the fact that they're being "forced" by a tutor to edit en masse. In effect, it's organised vandalism (albeit non-malicious). Oli Filth 17:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree with the "forced" comment - this would appear to not be a voluntary editing activity. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 17:03, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Deskana, and the forced comment -- and additionally, Until, the other major difference is that they post what they need to and then disappear, and never see the comments we leave them. Gscshoyru 17:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Posting and leaving is common amongst new users. It is a good idea to contact the university, but I don't think these users pose any sort of unique challenge to us. 1 != 2 17:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

This is true. However, it theoretically has the possibility of becoming a constructive source of content. Which is why... we should contact the instructor. I think we're all agreed on the "contact the instructor part." Gscshoyru 17:33, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, like all new users they have a tremendous potential to add to Misplaced Pages. We also have the opportunity to influence their behavior and expectations before they edit and never come back which is a good thing. 1 != 2 17:43, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• I see the problem as he essentialy lets his students loose after telling them "here's how you create an account, here's how you edit, now go wild". If the assigment did at least mention ever so briefly, say, if I can only choose two, at least wp:npov and wp:v... I think that properly handled, these assignments could potentially be a positive contribution to wikipedia. Does anybody know if he himself is a[REDACTED] editor?--victor falk 17:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As a professor, this whole thing intrigues me. I was thinking of having my students next semester do an assignment where they had to add one cited sentence to a relevant[REDACTED] article. Is this not welcome? I think an assignment like this could benefit both[REDACTED] and the students. Or is it just an issue with the specific assignment? Rangek 18:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Whilst it has the potential to be useful, I think that in all probability, forcing a bunch of newbie editors to go round making edits may result in more harm than good. The above is an example of this! From the professor's point of view, I don't understand how this could make a good assignment; why does it have to involve editing a public website? What's wrong with normal essays? If the students get an essay wrong, no-one else has to sort out the mess. Oli Filth 18:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

It is much easier to grade 200 sentences added to[REDACTED] than it is to grade 200 2-3 page essays. Plus, I would hope that if the student added nonsense to[REDACTED] the professor would revert it as they graded it. (Eliminating or at least minimizing the "someone else sorting out the mess" aspect.) Also, I would think it a public service to add a hundred or so cited, relevant, sentences to wikipedia. Scholarship (even in this most modest form) should be shared, not just relegated to the classroom. I also think that it would make the students work harder, since their work will be "in the public eye". Rangek 18:57, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

With no disrepect intended, if 200 essays is too much work, then why not get the students to each hand a sentence in on a piece of paper? Regarding the "professor reverting", as we've just seen, inevitably that's not what would happen. In this case it took 3 or 4 editors to figure out what was going on and try to undo 2 weeks' worth of damage. And unless the prof happens to be an experienced Wiki editor, they're probably not in the best position to judge what is/isn't appropriate for Wiki. I agree that scholarship shouldn't be consigned to the classroom, but at the same time, Misplaced Pages isn't a testbed for experimentation and foul-ups that professors should be falling back on to save themselves some effort. If the students' work is good enough, then add it once it's been graded! Oli Filth 19:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I think you've hit on something here. It could be some kind of wikiproject maybe? If mentored properly it could be a great way of fostering good editors. Here's some interesting info Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2006-12-26/Wikipedia and academia Just a caveat: I'm afraid it could increase the risk of articles becoming academic instead of encyclopedic.--victor falk 20:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Under Misplaced Pages:School_and_university_projects#Suggested_exercises there seems to be a project just like I was thinking of doing, i.e., having students add cited sentences to[REDACTED] articles. I don't think we have to worry about "articles becoming 'academic' instead of 'encyclopedic'" with contriubutions from an introductory level class. Rangek 23:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Would it be worth making some kind of an effort to track all these university-lead edits? I know that a friend of mine has a similar assignment task at his university, involving editing wikipedia. Although this has some potential to really improve wikipedia, i do wonder if we should compile a list of known assignment tasks and which topics they cover, to help us keep an eye out for a flood of bad edits. As a side note, does this in a way fall under the category of meatpuppets? Hugzz 00:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

As you folks have eventually found, the question of how to deal with students, professors and assignments in Misplaced Pages is not new. I was one of the folks who kicked this off in 2003, and as you can see from the above page it can be pulled off successfully. I hope you will not go with your earlier sentiment and try to prevent this type of dynamic from happening. Professors need to give good guidelines and learn about the Misplaced Pages community culture, rather than just telling students, "Go wild," but you should know it can be done well. As to the earlier comment by Oli Filth, despite what you'd think, grading stuff on Misplaced Pages is about 5x harder than grading individual handed-in assignments. Think of tracking what account is what student, doing all the diffs, figuring out the quality of an edit versus others, et al. -- Fuzheado | Talk 00:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I have been using Misplaced Pages now with my students this semester and it is really a great experience for English as a foreign language students. We have had to adapt to Misplaced Pages culture as well as improving writing skills. My class fits in well with the notion of taking time to adapt the students (and the teacher) to Misplaced Pages norms but I can understand why some classes may not want to "waste" time in that way.Thelmadatter 17:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone contacted the instructor yet? There is still a lot of this stuff coming in. - Ehheh 14:50, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Meh. If no one has then I think I shall do so. And the assignment is due today, so it'll stop after today. But it'll make us better off next semester if we explain this. Gscshoyru 15:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

One of the useful things about school assignments is that we have the potential to explain to the teacher how to do it, who then will show the students. Our present tutorial material are actually quite useful for this, especially WP:FIRST. But if anyone wants to a specialized page, let me know and I'll help. One of the problems they have is finding appropriate topics that are course related. for some course it might be tricky, but I think anyone experienced here could help make suggestion--mine would tend to be bios.--it's adaptable to almost any course subject. (It occurs to me that we might have a button for "missing articles possibly related to this one") DGG (talk) 21:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

So, he finally responded. Here's his response, intermixed with my letter. His response looks pretty good, I think.

Hi Gscshoyru
> Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:AN#Dozens_of_bad-quality_edits_as_a_result_of_a_coursework_assignment
Thanks for passing on the link to this discussion.
> Though your assignment has the potential to be a useful source of
> content for Misplaced Pages, currently, most, if not all of your students'
> contributions have been reverted for violating policy, most
> specifically, http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:NPOV and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/WP:CITE. (Please keep in mind when
> grading this assignment that any user's contributions can always be
> viewed in the history of a page, which can be gotten to by clicking
> the "history" tab at the top of the page.) Specifically, your
> students' contributions are essays, which inherently argue a point of
> view by design, and though they do cite verifiable, reliable sources,
> their citing style doesn't follow Misplaced Pages's specified citing style,
> or sometimes their essays are not cited at all. The citing issues are
> relatively minor (though they need to be addressed as well),
> but the point-of-view issues are the real problem.
For context, the assignment was designed so that students would properly engage with new media technologies and get a better understanding of the way[REDACTED] functions. (They were also required to create online presentations using publicly available tools.) As far as the[REDACTED] assignment was concerned, it was hoped that they might actually make some useful contributions in areas relevant to their study.

We did discuss creating our own wiki, but there are pedagogical advantages in contributing to a public forum - not the least of which is the fact that "something is at stake". Giving the evolving nature of the new media and the ways users are being encouraged to actively participate in content generation, the[REDACTED] exercise was designed to allow students to engage with a significant part of the "web 2.0 machine".
> Content in Misplaced Pages should
> be in the form of facts, backed up by sources -- not the form of an
> argument, even if backed up by sources. It would be best if this
> caveat would be explained to your students carefully -- though in your
> assignment sheet you tell them to "keep it neutral," you may not have
> fully explained what that means, and since this is a college
> assignment, any written papers will be written in the form of an essay
> because that's what they've been trained to write. (I know -- I'm a
> college student myself). If you explain the citing and writing style
> to the students beforehand, and grade them on their adherence to them,
> then your assignment could be an excellent source of new content in
> semester to come, which would be welcomed.
You've made some fair points. Whilst we did encourage neutrality, it could have been better emphasised and contextualised. And yes, our students may have adopted an argumentative stance out of habit. (My experience though is that no matter how often you explain matters of style and substance, students will do what students do!!) However, we should have included your NPOV (and other) tutorials in our course guide, and overtly focussed on its contents elsewhere in the course material. And we could definitely have considered an assessment criteria which takes such guidelines into account.
> Please take a look at the links I gave you -- the first one especially
> may do a better job explaining than I can, and please respond either
> here or in the discussion I linked you to. Or both. We await your
> response.
>
> Gscshoyru

Again, thank you for the comments. We hope to run similar assignments in the future (and I suspect others will too) - although it will be much modified based on feedback from tutors, students and of course, yourselves. I think such assignments have the potential to be useful for both students and wikipedia.

Best Regards
Sherman

And that's that, I guess... if anyone has anything else to add or respond, say so here. Gscshoyru 12:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone else think it's funny that this issue was raised on October 28 and in the course guide (linked above) it says it's due on the 31st? Some people left it a little late I think. :) James086 12:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who successfully made it through college, I'd say the dates are within normal expectations. The majority of papers and assignments are usually completed in the hours before they are due -- for many reasons. -- llywrch 19:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the current policy on 'Secret Pages'?

I suspect this has come up before, and I don't normally care about such things, but looking at the autograph page above made me link to a couple of the signees, and I found many of them had text on their user page that say, 'Find my secret page!'. So I went to google, and got this result. While I realize a lot of these links are to user talk pages, congratulating them for finding it and things like people creating barnstars to congratulate each other, 10 and 20 pages down the search I'm still finding so-called secret pages. I *believe* that this has, in the past, been treated as silly but ignorable, but we're nearing 70,000 ghits on secret pages limited just to en-wiki. Is this something that can/should be dealt with, or is it just disk space use that we need (as in 'can't stop') to let slide? --Thespian 21:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOT#MYSPACE balanced against WP:COMMUNITY. If these are proactive editors who want to enjoy the community then why not. Bandwidth et. al. is not our concern. I personally think secret pages, signature pages etc. are a waste of effort, but if the editors who create them for themselves also create meaningful content / revert vandalism / identify CSD stuff / generally contribute then on balance I'd prefer to keep the secret pages if we can keep the editors. Pedro :  Chat  21:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

These editors often don't make useful edits, though. I'm fine with allowing useful contributors to have autograph pages or whatever, but if someone is using Misplaced Pages as a webhost or a game, then I'd say nuke 'em. Natalie 21:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

At least one of the edits signing one of the pages is an administrator (@pple)! @pple does make useful edits.Miesbu 16:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

(To clarify, I don't think the users should necessarily be blocked, but the time-wasting pages should be deleted and the user warned. Natalie 21:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC))

If they don't make useful edits, WP:MFD is what you are looking for. I would advise against a mass nomination of multiple users' pages - someone tried that with signature books I believe, it was a disaster. Mr.Z-man 21:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. I'm not commenting on individual issues. Autograph pages (as an example) may be contrary to WP:ENC but if the editor has made (arbitary figure) 200 good edits then let them keep it. If they've turned up and done nothing but work in their user space then that's an MFD issue. Per Mr.Z-Man wholesale deletion with or without warning will just irritate potentialy valuable future editors. Pedro :  Chat  21:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm usually seen arguming for t olerance for editors expressing their individuality, but I think such pages and autograph books are expressions of jvenile lack of seriousness, and should be removed. expressing one's affiliation is fine; cultivating friendship related to WP is fine; obtrusive activities that have no conceivable relationship to the encyclopedia are quite another matter. Let's start as Z-man suggests, and go slowly, beginning with the worst of them. DGG (talk) 22:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Unless the secret pages are the only thing an editor has worked on, I don't see a problem with it. I've certainly got a plethora of private pages in my userspace (though they're generally only private because I'm the only one that would find use for them). EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, the correct figure is about 300 pages not 70,000. Addhoc 22:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, though it gives 350+, not 300. It's not as bad as I thought, but I still think that's excessive (and won't count variant names and the ones I saw labelled 'Page of Secrets!' and such). The user pages that I peeked at that had these links were....messy, and it might also be my RL (I do user interface design engineering for software and web sites) that's adding to my reaction, since my first reaction to several pages was 'Dude, I can't find *anything* on your pages, let alone a secret link!' ;-) --Thespian 22:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Results 1 - 10 of about 71,000 from en.wikipedia.org for secret page. (0.13 seconds)⇒SWATJester 22:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

May be, but a lot of those pages are just pages which contain the words "secret pages" – only about 350+ are actual secret pages. ~ Sebi 10:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There are entire clusters of users who spend time doing their own secret pages and finding other users' secret pages and autograph books. I agree that the disk space and resource usage isn't a big concern, but it definitely seems like users come together in clusters. And there's a difference between private pages used for article development versus private pages being advertised with, "Find my secret page and sign it!" I've never asked anyone to sign User:Elkman/Cook County NRHP, for example. --Elkman 22:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Its also really easy to find such pages if you know a user has one. Mr.Z-man 22:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that if users want to have them, let them have them. If it keeps them in a good mood and excited to get on Misplaced Pages every so often, that's great. Even if they only make a few edits while they're on, they're making a difference. нмŵוτнτ 23:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

"Secret" pages? What the eff is the point? They must not know about Special:Prefixindex. Delete the stupid nonsense as a violation of WP:USER. We should've done this awhile ago with the signature books: now the cancer is metastasizing. --Cyde Weys 23:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't really care that much, but just an FYI: the good ones I've seen hide them well enough so that they don't show up using the prefix index. нмŵוτнτ 02:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Erm, that's not possible...unless it's in someone else's userspace. — H₂O —  09:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh no, a page of relating to secret pages that isn't a secret page, strictly speaking. ~ Sebi 10:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind people having secret pages, as long as they can be coaxed to contribute to the encyclopedia and not just each other's talk pages, etc. Perhaps there are some people who will join Misplaced Pages because of the opportunity to make a secret or autograph page, and then become productive editors. I do object to people treating Misplaced Pages as if it is nothing more than a game, and I think the secret pages of such users should be deleted. I don't know what the cutoff point for productive vs. nonproductive editor should be, though. People have different standards. --Kyoko 03:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Can someone provide an example of these "secret spaces"? User:Zscout370 04:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't provide you with an example of a secret page because it wouldn't be a secret any more. (Ha ha.) Actually, though, here are a couple example: User:Uchiha23/Secret Page, User:Penubag/Secret page, User:Efansay/Secret Page, User:Zenlax/Sandbox2, and anyone who's credited at User:Vic93/HiddenLinkAwards. Or, better yet, anything that links to Image:Missing barnstarPn.png. --Elkman 04:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

In principle, I agree with Pedro. The problem is, no one is going to police this (I mean, check to make sure that people who create or spend their time finding secret pages are also making quality edits). I agree that the activity as such is harmless .... but nevertheless i think it ought to be discouraged if not outright banned because it sends the wrong message. I think Misplaced Pages needs to tlerate if not cultivate a freedom of expression, but I think that that stops on the user-page itself. I think all other pages should have some relevance to the objective of Misplaced Pages, which is to build an encyclopedia. This includes sandbox pages and talk pages which yes, build community, but community organized around the common goal of building an encyclopedia by working on articles. Secret pages are just a game and one that trivializes Misplaced Pages. Surely Wikipedians who happen to like these sorts of things can join facebook or some other internet forum to support their pleasures. Let Misplaced Pages be Misplaced Pages. Slrubenstein | Talk 04:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you define Misplaced Pages community? Just for curiosity. @pple complain 08:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Many talk pages, including those of adminstrators, are similarly guilty of idle talk, thanks, hellos, etc. The main difference is that they are not called "secret pages". Lighten up! Even one of the signers of a secret page is an administrator who has made useful edits. Miesbu 16:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Since I saw my name brought up in this discussion, I want to have a few words. Miesbu, I think you misunderstand what people are talking about. Secret pages are acceptable, as long as their owners make useful edits to the encyclopedia other than just strolling around and advertising "Finding my pages, plz". As I recalled, Deskana used to make massive nominations of autographbook for deletion but he still signed his adoptee's. I personally favor these kinds of subpages, since they bring excitement and promote friendliness among editors, but there should be a limit. @pple complain 08:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Secret page is a valid use of userspace, helps strengthen the community spirit and encourage mutual acquaintance. PeaceNT 12:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Kmweber

I've blocked this user because of their continued disruption to the Requests for Adminship process. I think ] sums up quite nicely the reasoning behind this block. If any administrator wishes to remove this block, please do feel free, but I strongly believe we need to remove this disruptive user from the project and I would prefer discussion rather than outright reversal. Nick 23:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/Kmweber - edits to the WP:RFA namespace are the disruptive edits in this case, btw. Nick 23:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Giving an opinion on an admin candidate (even a misguided one) at RFA is not disruption. That's exactly what RFA is for. Friday (talk) 23:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Friday, it is disruptive. Nick was less giving than I was, and I support this. We simply do not have time for this trolling for attention. Mercury 23:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The disruptive part I see is people getting bent out of shape over it. He's entitled to his misguided opinion; he's giving it in the place designated for such opinions. Friday (talk) 23:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The designated place to try to disallow self-noms is the WP:RFA talk page, not on the RFAs for self-nominated candidates. Mr.Z-man 23:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Friday, my below comment. This needs to stop from this editor. Mercury 23:32, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Without commenting on this particular block, can we please not turn Jimbo's words on the RfC into some kind of excuse to go on an all out witch hunt? If you can't justify a block without referring to a comment from Jimbo, the block isn't justifiable. - auburnpilot talk 23:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I can, with respect... the disruption comes after folks telling him time and time again the comments are not welcome, and not needed. Kmweber continuing to comment after that, is disruption to the project. If an unblock occurs, I may open an RFC, or request arbitration on the matter. The petty disruption has to stop, somewhere. Mercury 23:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said, I wasn't commenting on this block. My point was that if you can't find a reason to block somebody within project policy, a Jimbo comment is not your salvation. I have no problem with this specific block. - auburnpilot talk 23:32, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I endorse the block. His opinion was that all self-noms are power hungry which assumes bad faith, especially as self-nomming is explicitly allowed in the process. The opposes had nothing to do with the users' contributions or possible value as an admin. The way he was doing it was a very WP:POINT-y way to get the process changed. Mr.Z-man 23:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

As someone who self-nominated and has spoken negatively regarding kmweber's opinions in the past, I cannot endorse this block unless he's done something more than just express his opinion. While we can certainly argue against such an opinion and do our utmost to ensure that it does not become prominent, we should not act as thought police, banning those who merely think differently than we do. Expressing an opinion in a forum specifically created to solicit opinions is not disruption. -Chunky Rice 23:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

People who post opinions with the perceived intent to make a point disrupting a process is trolling. This is blockable to prevent the disruption. We are not the thought police, but editing is not a right. Mercury 23:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing disruptive going on here. Making a point is fine. It's only when you create a disruption to make that point that there is an issue. What exactly is the disruption here? He voted like everybody else? -Chunky Rice 23:40, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The disruption is the knee jerk voting, and the provocative way the vote is worded. Power hunger is a bad faith assumption. A string of nine oppose votes pasted, is disruption if the argument carries no weight and comes with a bad faith assumption. There is no need or time for this here. Mercury 23:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Good block, I was going to suggest something similar earlier today when I saw he was back. What he is doing is a very pointy attempt at disrupting RfA and quite frankly, it's more trouble than it's worth. Ryan Postlethwaite 23:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

If an editor held the position that all schools are inherently notable (a position held by some, but not supported by policy or guideline), and subsequently voted to keep any school article that came up for deletion, should we ban such an editor for disruption? -Chunky Rice 23:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

If the opinion is made in such a way as to disrupt the project. Yes. Mercury 23:45, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you explain to me how this voting in an open vote is disruptive? -Chunky Rice 23:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Its supposed to be more than just a vote, you are supposed to have a good reason. To use your example, if someone goes on every open school AFD and pastes in the same response on all of them, implying that the nom was made in bad faith, that is disruption and an abuse of process. Mr.Z-man 00:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but your hypothetical only works because it's disruptive to accuse people of bad faith without evidence. If he copied and pasted the same argument about how the nomination was wrong, then that is not disruptive or abuse of process - it isprocess. --TheOtherBob 05:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This block only makes sense to me if he's a kook. I'm generally in favor of blocking kooks; they do more harm than good. But one idiosyncratic opinion is not a good indicator of kookery. Is he continually unreasonable? Friday (talk) 23:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Based on my observation of the archives and prior discussion on this behaviors, yes, I would say so. Unreasonable. Mercury 23:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• I endorse the block. He makes no edits at all, except to RFAs. That I find a problem. Users who are part of the community should be giving their opinions, not drive by opposers. I'll put it bluntly - he is not qualified to be making such decisions on RFAs. This is obvious because nobody shares his view on it. The general consensus is such votes are harmful and so, the block is good - he is "harming" the editors of the encyclopedia. Majorly (talk) 23:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I consider that a very dangerous precedent to set. I don't want anyone blocked for only caring about one thing, nor do I want the community to be defined in such a way as to only allow qualified individuals to participate in community issues. --TheOtherBob 05:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Support block, virtually no mainspace edits to redeem weeks of what can only be described as trolling. Guy (Help!) 23:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• So this guy has a negative opinion on self-nominated RFAs. How does this at all affect the encyclopedia? He does not seem at all disruptive, unless someone can show me some more substantial diffs.—AL 23:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Look at the contribs. The opposes are very recent. See my above comment regarding bad faith assumptions and trolling. It is not the opinion. It is the trolling and the ABF. Mercury 23:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Since there is already an RFC on this exact issue at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Kmweber, how about making a case there that he's doing more harm than good, and let people think about it for a few days. Maybe he should be unblocked temporarily to participate. I can't deny there's some support here for the block, but indef may be a bit hasty while it's still being discusses. Friday (talk) 00:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse block — I view RFA trolling as prima facie evidence of deserving a block. --Cyde Weys 00:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• If he's trolling, it's a clear case. In the RFC on this exact issue, nobody made a case that it was trolling. Nobody has presented diffs of trolling here. Friday (talk) 00:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

An indefinite block? For expressing an unpopular opinion at RFA, really? Obviously he's out to make a point, but has he actually made a difference anywhere? Even doing this to apparently a couple dozen RFAs I can't imagine that even one of them would have passed had Kmweber not said: "No self-noms". The disruption (to the degree there is any) is mostly by annoying the community. That said, we are talking about someone with almost 5000 edits scattered sporadically over 3+ years, and just before being blocked he was productively copyediting. I don't see any credible way in this case to jump from "Hey, we'd like you to stop" to an indefinite block with no intermediate sanction. Dragons flight 00:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Don't fall into the trap of thinking indefinite means infinite. It's only indefinite until he announces his intentions to stop disrupting RFA. It takes a real knucklehead to keep doing something long after everyone has told you to knock it off. He can't honestly say he was surprised at this outcome. --Cyde Weys 00:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • "Everyone told him to knock it off"? Read the RFC, two dozen people told him that casting unpopular, ideologically motivated votes was acceptable the last time around. Given the feedback he recieved there, I think the outcome here can legitimately be considered surprising. Dragons flight 00:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Response from Kurt

Per Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Kmweber, I was perfectly justified in believing that the Misplaced Pages community did not view my actions as disruptive and blockworthy. Since that RfC, nothing had happened to indicate to me that the community consensus had changed. At the very least, then, it was absurd to block me indefinitely without warning. If the consensus has changed and what I am doing is no longer acceptable, I will stop--but neither at the time I did my most recent opposes nor when Nick blocked me was there absolutely anything to suggest that.

I'm willing to stop at least until this matter is sorted out, and if community consensus indicates that it is not acceptable then I will stop altogether. I'm aware that consensuses (consensi?) can change; the point is, though, that there was no reason for me to think that it had. At the very least, a warning, giving me a chance to stop, would have been appropriate before blocking me for engaging in behavior I had every reason to think the community agreed was perfectly legitimate. Kurt Weber (Go Colts!) 00:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I suggest an unblock based on the above. We can sort this issue with less drastic measures. Friday (talk) 00:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
• I will not support an unblock unless the editor makes a promise to cease the trolling altogether forever. Anything less then that will cause me to produce evidence and request arbitration in the event of unblocking. Mercury 00:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Going to arbcom to look for a topic ban might be an appropriate step. People are throwing around the word "trolling" without good evidence for this. We're all against trolling, that is not the issue here. The issue is that people disagree on what's trolling. Continuing to calmly express an unpopular opinion isn't automatically wrong. Friday (talk) 00:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• We don't need ArbCom to ban him from RFA. We can do it through consensus here, but I would only agree to an unblock if it is a self-imposed RFA ban, not a forced one. Mr.Z-man 00:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd only support an unblock if he agrees not to comment on RfA's anymore, full stop. His comments at RfA are incivil and give no constructive critisism to the candidate. I could understand at a push if he was making some supports as well, but he doesn't, every single comment is an oppose and for the same reason - it's purely disruptive. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with Ryan, if he agrees to stop trolling, then unblock should go away. Jbeach 00:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree with a ban with all[REDACTED] namespace, as he trolled AFDs in the past as well. Jbeach 00:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
• I concur with Friday and read the existing RFC as basically saying that expressing unpopular opinion in good faith, even very stubbornly, is not a blockable offense at all. Discussion of whether that has changed (and a new RFC or RFAr) may be warranted. Unless there is something significantly more substantial and obviously troll-like than imitating Boothy (a historical user who opposed nearly everyone) then he should be unblocked. Dragons flight 00:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
• Kurt has already agreed to stop "trolling". ("There was an RfC on this earlier. On my own accord, I stopped engaging in the contested behavior until a very clear consensus emerged on the RfC that what I was doing was perfectly legitimate. I'll do the same again. I'll stop until this matter is re-resolved, and if it turns out that consensus is against me, I'll stop altogether. But if consensus is that I'm still in the right, why should I stop doing something the community as a whole believes is OK just because a few people don't like it?") I disagree strongly with an indef block for what I believe is good-faith concerns, however poorly worded or patently absurd they may seem on face value. Since when do we block people for expressing an unpopular opinion? east.718 at 01:26, 11/1/2007

Fucking awful block. Opposing self-noms isn't even remotely disruptive, and in my view is a very valid opinion. If you can't find a trustworthy user who is willing to go through your contribs from top to bottom and vouch for you, then maybe you shouldn't be at RFA just yet. How is expressing that idea an indefinitely blockable offense? I won't even go into comparing this with Mikka's recent pointy oppose spree in response to being blocked for edit warring, after which he was defended by everyone and their mother. I hate to assume bad faith, but is there an underlying disagreement here? Because I can't find basis for this at all, especially since the community consensus was already completely clear that it's fine. Curious in Cleveland, —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 01:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to note that (as a current RfA candidate), I considered self-nomming simply because I wanted to present myself as 'I am ready, and choose to do this.' I had already had Llyrwch look over my history because I wanted to get a feel if an admin agreed with my self-assessment. When I mentioned self-nomming to Llyrwch, he said specifically that I'd get votes against me simply for self-nomming, so why do it, when he was ready to nominate me? I decided to go with that, simply to avoid having votes against me that were not based on my actual contributions, but instead made as a a WP:POINT. So do not assume that self-noms *haven't* had that look at them, that they haven't been mentored or worked with/under admins who have told them they're ready, etc. That said, though I disagree with the people voting against me for edit number count issues (a look at my edits often shows I do 20 edits in one spree; a recent one had 30 changes and 6 cites being added in one technical 'edit'), they're completely in their right to do so, and I don't think they should be stopped, though I likewise believe that the body of work, both size and breadth, is more important than things you can tell about a candidate in 20s (self-nom, edit counts, etc). --Thespian 01:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

It is a terrible block, user had an RFC that produced no consensus toward this action. And then without a warning, a indef block? No too mention that the block has caused way more disruption then any number of his (misguided) opposes at RFA. An unblock is called for here. This is going way too far in punishing unpopular opinions. RxS 03:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This isn't any less disruptive than previous RFA trolling by Boothy, Masssiveego, and Anglius, for example, and I'm pretty sure Kmweber has contributed far more good to the encyclopedia than that trio. Why can't we just ignore it like we used to? (Or just add a note saying "Kurt adds this to every RFA. No one agrees. It's easier to ignore it.")--chaser - t 03:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I completely agree with Dragons flight. Given the outcome of the RFC, it's impossible for me to endorse this block.--Kubigula (talk) 03:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• For a point of comparison, User:Politics rule was far more trollish at RfA (he showed up one day opposing people based on made-up edit count stats, and got just a bit subtler after that, but he got people to actually listen to him), and we didn't block him until he turned out to be a sockpuppet. I dislike Kmweber's votes, but at least he is very clear about why he is making them so that you can disagree with him. This block seems like a case of "WP:IDONTLIKEHIM". rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 04:24, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Just a minor correction: Politics rule was not a sockpuppet; he was actually abusing multiple accounts to vote stack RfAs. east.718 at 05:47, 11/1/2007
• While the repeated comments were certainly getting tiresome, the fact is that everyone has their own opinions on things; this editor should be free as anyone else to offer that opinion if he feels it's necessary. I'm fairly certain the bureaucrats can weigh his comment on its merit when they come across it. This block was, I would suggest, unnecessary. Tony Fox (arf!) 05:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
• Note. The question is of course whether disruption goes beyond RfA. On that subject, please see , , , . at AfD. There is a general pattern here, and it's quite odd. Whether it justifies a block I don't know. Chick Bowen 05:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • That isn't disruption, that's just extreme inclusionism. I'm sure the closing admin would not put much stock in his vote. east.718 at 05:47, 11/1/2007
• I commented in the RFC as well, so I'm just repeating myself, but I'm really disappointed to see this block. This is an opinion, from an established editor, that disrupts no one. It was put up for community comment, and the overwhelming consensus was that it was an opinion very few agreed with, but a valid one nonetheless. Even those who asked that he stop nonetheless overwhelmingly opposed a block -- so to come along and impose one is against community consensus. The only valid reason that anyone has put forth for blocking is that his opinion "assumes bad faith." But that's...well, I'm sorry, but it's baloney. Every oppose vote assumes some level of "bad faith," under that definition. His oppose vote is based on the belief that, given this piece of what he considers important evidence (a self-nomination), he cannot assume that the candidate has the character traits necessary to perform as required as an admin. That's exactly what every oppose vote says - that some evidence indicates that the candidate isn't ready for the mop. The only quibble is over whether Kurt's over-valuing this particular piece of evidence. If he is...so what. This is not disruptive behavior, it's behavior clearly within the bounds of normal Misplaced Pages discussion, and I think this block was extraordinarily ill-advised and contrary to community consensus. --TheOtherBob 05:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I too think the block is unjustified, especially since he's expressed willingness to go along with community consensus. delldot talk 05:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I am stunned that he was blocked for this. What the heck is going on here? No one factor contributes to a position in an RfA. An editor is not required to detail all their reasons for a given position, and a self-nom might be a contributing factor, but the only one mentioned. I also have a problem with self-noms, but that is not enough to get me to oppose someone. I might mention that as the main or only reason, but I look at their past contributions. Someone with a strong past record will be enough for me to overlook their self-nom, and I suspect this is true of User:Kmweber as well, or others. We have too many weak candidates for admin, and we worry about silly issues rather than core important issues.--Filll 13:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Topic ban

OK, I'm quite happy to unblock if Kurt agrees to a self-imposed topic ban, anybody have any objections to this or wish more/less restrictions before I unblock ? Does anybody wish to write up a formal topic ban or will I just unblock on the understanding that if he goes near anything other than the WT:RFA page, he can be reblocked ? Nick 08:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC) un

I think he should agree before being unblocked. If he resumes editing in a non-disruptive way, then later on he can request to properly participate in the RFA process, and we can consider lifting the topic ban. The block was completely justified. The time has come to stop enabling trollish behavior. - Jehochman 09:09, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Blocks being preventive in intent, this is fine by me as well. But as Jehochman says, we need an undertaking not to disrupt (and by that I don't mean a Wikilawyering commitment not to oppose just because of self-noms, while carrying on with the opposes anyway). A six month embargo on all participation in RFAs or associated debates would be fine. Guy (Help!) 11:05, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Confused. Nick, you propose Kurt will be unblocked provided he doesn't touch anything but the RFA talk page? So if he reverts a bit of vandalism to an article (admitedly unlikely) we block again? How does this help anything ? Pedro :  Chat  11:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that you understand what is meant by a topic ban, he would be banned from editing any Request for Adminship, but would be permitted to discuss on the central talk page any proposals he might wish to make. Edits outwith the WP:RFA area would be unaffected and he can edit wherever he wishes. It might also be worthwhile asking that he make no RfA related edits outwith the RfA namespace either, such as canvassing for people to Oppose on his behalf, for example (though that's quite unlikely, I believe). Nick 11:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Un-confused If the proposal is that Kurt can edit anywhere he chooses but within the RFA space only on the general talk page then I srtongly agree with overturning this block. Pedro :  Chat  11:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
• I'd oppose the topic ban. I think community consensus was that this activity, while not the warmest, cuddliest thing a person could do, is acceptable -- and that blocking a person for engaging in it reflects disagreement with the viewpoint rather than any violation of policy. Given that the community thought that a block was inappropriate, a topic ban seems to be inappropriate as well. Instead can't we just drop it? --TheOtherBob 13:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• The consensus at the RFC was not that this contributions to RFA were unacceptable. Has his participation there gotten worse? I see no reason to ban him from making comments you disagree with. That's not how we do things. All this talk of enabling trolls is off the mark- he's not a troll. Friday (talk) 13:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
• He should be unblocked regardless of any conditions. There's no consensus for this block (as shown above) and a commonly held principal is that an editor is indef blocked only as long as no other admin is willing to unblock. I also agree with Friday, calling someone a troll does not make them one. That word should not be generalized to include anyone whose opinions you disagree with. Jimbo's comment about clearing out trolls does not apply here. I'd consider any unblock here justified. RxS 13:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• He's trying to be reasonable on his talk page. I've unblocked for now. Yes, I see that some people supported, but several opposed too, and even some of the block supporters seems willing to soften their position. I invite those who think there is an ongoing behavior problem to continue discussing it at RFC or some other suitable venue. If there's consensus that his RFA contributions are unacceptable, he'll stop. Last it was discussed in a calm manner, there was no such consensus. Friday (talk) 13:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Unblock without any restrictions. No ban. We've previously discussed this as a community, at the RfC. The RFC consensus very clearly said did not merit a block! That RfC evidences no support for the notion that his edits were a problem meriting a block; I can't find a single view on the page that indicated it was behaviour that could ever merit a block. The strongest views against his behavior are those by the certifiers, NewYorkBrad, and TwoOars (the last two of which explicitly disagree with blocking), which got between the three views a total of 6 supporting comments. With between 30 and 40 participants, the RfC is very clear that it is acceptable to express unpopular minority opinions at RfA. The block is completely unwarranted, no topic ban is needed, and the admin that acted needs to change their behaviour far more than KurtWeber does. No evidence here that there is any reason to think that the community consensus is different than at the time of the RfC. GRBerry 13:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Immediate unblock pending clarification of community consensus, for which this page is not the proper forum. Friday beat me to the unblock, but I would have unblocked at this point as well. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Can we be calm next time?

I have to express my strong disappointment in the way Kmweber was railroaded here. For an indef block to come out of the blue, with no intermediate sanction, for behavior that's already been discussed at RFC? That is simply not reasonable. Yes, we should show trolls the door- no reasonable person disagrees on that issue. But a troll is not just someone who gets called a troll. There has to be actual trolling. I don't know where this idea came from- has he irritated the wrong person lately? All I know for sure is, the last time this issue was discussed calmly on the wiki, it was the RFC and there was nothing resembling a conclusion that his behavior is actually disruptive. Annoying, perhaps. So, be less easily annoyed. Giving an unpopular opinion at RFC is no big deal. Friday (talk) 13:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the block is an almost perfect example of when to apply WP:IAR. This user was engaging in behavior which was unhelpful, continuous, borderline disruptive, and just plain really flippin' annoying. The fact remains that his behavior was such was mentioned to him on many, many occasions, and he refused to change it. Even though there is no policy to back up this block, there was a wide consensus that his behavior was, after all, unhelpful, continuous, borderline disruptive, and just plain really flippin' annoying. So he was blocked. We're willing to unblock if he agrees to finally halt his widely-agreed-to-be-annoying behaviors. When he does, he will be unblocked. A disruptive behavior will have been removed, peace will come, the contributor will remain as well. That is WP:IAR. RyanGerbil10(C-Town) 15:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This still ignores the fact that two dozen people told him, in an RFC on his actions, that making such votes was acceptable. Given that, I can't see how one gets to "wide consensus" that this activity warranted a block. Dragons flight 15:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Yeah, but Ignore All Rules isn't Ignore All Consensus, and consensus was that a block was inappropriate. Being annoyed by an opinion...well, it's not a good reason to block. I guess it goes back to the similarity between opinions and the bottom-rear portion of the human torso -- in particular the universality and fragrance of both. We depend on opinions to operate; sometimes that means that we get ones that annoy the living bejesus out of us. So we take it in stride, disagree, and move on -- we don't block to silence valid (if unpopular) viewpoints. --TheOtherBob 15:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Friday. From the outside, it looks like this block was done in a spirit of "Jimbo's told us we can block anyone who is being disruptive", with no thought as to whether it is agreed that this set of actions are disruptive, and how disruptive it is. Despite the point being made that positive contributions shouldn't be used to cancel out negative contributions, I can't help but feel that contributions like this do outweigh the "oppose, self-nom" point being made by Kmweber. Frivolous !votes in RfAs are nothing new, and nothing to get too worked up about. Just as the person making the frivolous !vote or point should be making the point somewhere else, so those wanting to scratch an annoying itch should find other ways to resolve the dispute. The technical point that an indefinite block is only indefinite if nothing else changes, can be lost on some people, so the block log should probably say "until xyz". Carcharoth 15:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this action may be a reason for creating an account specifically for such opinions, so as to not risk one's main account just because people don't like the opinions being given. The fellow's been banned for giving requested opinions and for clearly stating that for one class of candidate he votes against that class. Would it have been better if he voted against the same people but gave a different reason so nobody knows the real reasons? Next will be banning due to votes against incumbents, against first-time nominees, against people not confident enough to self-nominate, against low-visibility workers? The block is an enforcement against the requirement that opinions be provided, as it establishes that true opinions are not acceptable. (SEWilco 15:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC))

• Part of being disruptive is actually doing something that has an effect, and that is what is missing from this situation. I expect kmweber (talk · contribs) is being largely ignored by closing admins at XFD and bureaucrats at RFA as his !votes generally carry no compelling reasoning behind them. Is it annoying to see someone tilting at windmills? Possibly. Is it actually having any appreciable effect other than possibly annoying some people? I think the answer is pretty clearly no. Personally I wish Kurt would find something more productive to do that make meaningless !votes (even if they are his opinion), but I don't see any evidence that what he is doing is having any appreciable effect. If you don't like it, ignore him or follow dispute resolution.--Isotope23 15:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Do we have an essay on Tilting at windmills? We should, then it can join the stable of shortcuts and essays based on real words and sayings and parables. WP:WINDMILL. A list of such is at Misplaced Pages talk:Trifecta#Random sayings and analogies. Carcharoth 17:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• It's annoying and disruptive. Once, twice, yes, but to keep on doing it when you've been told that you've made your point and if you want a change that's not the way to achieve it, all that does is to piss people off. It's a case of don't be a dick. Guy (Help!) 17:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I like the idea of pre-discussion for any long-term blocks. If this block had been proposed first and discussed, it would likely never have happened. Is that good or bad? Carcharoth 18:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

So now it's going to arbitration arbitration? Look, the community consensus was that this activity was not disruptive and that blocking the guy was inappropriate. That's been made abundantly clear here and at an RFC -- the community simply does not agree with the view that Kurt should blocked for voicing his opinion or punished for doing so. A few people disagree, but they're by far in the minority. Yet rather than listening to all the people asking to just let this drop and, you know, letting it drop, I guess now Mercury is going to "make a federal case of it," for lack of a better term. Come on, man, let it drop. --TheOtherBob 22:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I wouldn't worry, its not going to be accepted by arbitrators. It will be declined at first sight I would imagine. Waste of time all around - I'd say posting this was a waste of my time, but I don't have anything better to do right now... :( (realizes there are like a bizzillion articles to work on and goes back to work). Wickethewok 23:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • If the arb case continues, the only thing that is likely to happen is Mercury being censured for being too eager to indef someone for daring to express their opinion. And every user above who described Kurt's oppositions as trolling should be ashamed of themselves. Neil ☎ 00:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Hmm, so Kurt expressing his opinions on a series of discussions is fine, but others expressing their opinions that his actions constitute trolling isn't? Maybe I'm advocating for the devil a bit here, but somehow that seems logically inconsistent Neil.--Isotope23 13:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Just for clarification, I don't think personally I would have indef blocked, and I don't think nick's intention was for the block to be a permanent thing. (Nick, correct me if I'm wrong). Mercury 12:51, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

• • • How could anybody think that it would be a good idea to send this to arbitration? east.718 at 02:05, 11/2/2007

RFA have space for retorts. So if one say "self nom is a power grab" then often people add "but it's considered ok". Different people have different opinions. Some people say that you need a certain number of edits to win RFA but others don't. One of those opinions is not trolling or reason for ban. Another debate is an RFA is "no big deal per Jimbo" vs. "hand out tools to only a few". Again, neither side should be banned on the excuse as trolling, just discuss. Discussion is very wikipedian, banning to get rid of opinions you don't like is not very wikipedian.Miesbu 16:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Having just discovered this thread (sorry, been either working on articles or busy away from Misplaced Pages), I would say this: Ugh. I don't agree with Kmweber's opinion, but IMHO he was expressing it in a reasonable manner. Further, a person isn't annoying unless you honestly can't ignore what she/he is doing. So instead of looking to the simplest solutions in this case -- ignore, engage in a discussion, try to build a consensus (which simultaneously helps to build community, which in the long term helps to suppress troublemakers) -- this whole mess is turning into an exercise in wikilawyering. I hate watching this because instead of proving that we don't need clearly defined rules, it would seem people are clamoring for more of them -- if not laws with penalties & the like. -- llywrch 20:33, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Blocks and Unblocks

I'd like to propose two ideas that might need to be communicated to the admin community:

• When placing a potentially controversial block, announce it and invite discussion. State in advance the conditions on which you would approve unblocking. This can save a lot of drama in case you are unavailable to discuss your block.

• Before undoing another administrator's actions, except for blatant mistakes or bad faith actions, try to contact the other admin, and if that fails, let the discussion at WP:AN or WP:ANI run long enough that you get a WP:SNOW consensus before doing what you want to do.

Does this make sense? This advice may seem obvious, but a lot of administrators seem to have missed these two points. - Jehochman 10:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'd certainly support that. CBD's unblock of Privatemusings, for example, was absolutely not supported by anythign like consensus, and most of those opposing the block don't actually know the identity of the aother account. Everyone I've spoken to who does, appears to support the block. Guy (Help!) 12:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Why should a block made without such discussion stand if consensus is split and policy does not support the stated reasons for the block? I'm all for discussion. Rather than an involved party placing a controversial block a discussion can allow comment from others and then any needed action can be taken by a neutral admin. However, if a block is placed without discussion, the stated reason for the block is not supported by policy, and extensive subsequent discussion shows the existence of strong opposition to the block then no... I do not believe that consensus for unblocking need be found before that action can be taken. Someone acting without consensus or any clear policy support, without discussion, and without even any prior warning does not get their controversial action 'certified' as the default case. --CBD 13:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I am with CBDunkerson; in cases of immediate disruption, then blocks should be placed without delay. But where there is an underlying and longrunning problem, there is no harm from suggesting a course of action and waiting until consensus has emerged. Indeed it is far more disruptive to have a controversial block placed, and then to have a long debate over whether it should be overturned, and whether an overturning was premature, and a meta-debate about whether policies were followed. A considered and debated block is far more likely to stick even if there is discontent with it. Sam Blacketer 14:43, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

We shouldn't look for a snowstorm to undo a block. If the block is not well supported, it possibly should be undone (or just allowed to expire if it's short.) Blocks are a blunt tool; we should sometimes try less drastic measures first. Friday (talk) 14:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I was just about to post something like this. This seems OK for long-term blocks, but for short blocks like 3RR, it seems that something different is needed. Discussions can sometimes take longer than 24 hours (though they shouldn't really be so protracted), so the length of discussion should be somehow proportional to the block length. I strongly support the idea of making clear under what conditions the blocking admin would agree to an unblock, though in some cases this might be obvious. An important point is to mention (and if possible, link to) any such discussion in the blocking/unblocking log. Being around to discuss things is important. If you are not around, there should be no complaint if a discussion overturns an action in your absence. Admins don't own their actions. User talk:NoSeptember/admin policy seems relevant here. Carcharoth 14:58, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• • I agree with the above; as I often take up 3RR reports I am always willing to unblock if it seems likely that they will not be disruptive, and there can be no objection to another admin undoing a block for the same reason. The blocks are for the benefit of the project and not for my ego. Sam Blacketer 15:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• "potentially controversial" is the stumbling block here; what can be obviously "in the right" to one person can easily be seen as dickish by another. EVula // talk // ☯ // 15:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • When undoing another admin's block (except for obvious mistakes or ABF) then you should ALWAYS contact that administrator prior to removing the block. Wikidudeman 15:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
    • No argument here. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Not sure what ABF means, but what if the blocking admin is unavailable? How long do you wait? I still maintain that discussion among other admins can overturn another admin's actions. WP:WHEEL uses the term "unilaterally" (I thought I did...) for a reason. Always requiring discussion gives the impression of ownership of admin actions. I'm not advocating overturning for no reason, but discussion and a good reason can lead to a good faith overturn in the absence of the blocking admin. Maybe the blocking admin will return and explain further, but unless the blocking admin had left notes behind, the unblocking admins would not have been aware of these further reasons. This all depends on the timescale of course. Blocking someone for a week before you go on holiday for a week is not a good idea. Blocking someone just before you go to sleep for 9 hours might be unavoidable, but things don't stop until you wake up/get back. It also depends on the urgency of course, and this should be weighed against the urgency of the original block. If the block prevented ongoing disruption, undoing it may restart that disruption. Other considerations can come into play as well. It is a complex judgment sometimes, with many aspects needing to be weighed against each other. You should still notify the blocking admin, and discuss if they are around, but no need to wait until they get back. But, as always, have a good reason for blocking and unblocking - and except people to object if you don't provide a good reason. Carcharoth 16:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Getting advice when you are in doubt is essential, but I would draw the line at "doubt", not "controversial". As for unblocking, it is current policy that you should not undo another admins block without first getting their agreement or a greater consensus from the community to do so. 1 != 2 16:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Some of the "don't revert an admin action" sentiment comes from inappropriate feelings of ownership. Admins, we should not own our admin actions. It's sometimes reasonable to undo one, even without "permission" from the person you're reverting. It shouldn't be common, and we should tread carefully, but undoing an admin action without persmission is not automatically unreasonable. Friday (talk) 16:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, it's generally something we should be careful about, but admin actions are hardly sacred -- I figure it's mainly the sudden actions, or the repeated reversals of administrative actions back and forth, that can set a bad example and potentially reflect poorly on the community, in the few cases where such arguments are prominent enough to garner some media attention. We do need some stability to keep good people around. Sanity checks and group discussion are useful, and if it's better off for a blunt action to be done or undone to allow a discussion to continue, or a situation to calm down, then timely response may be of particular importance. "Ignore all rules" shouldn't be taken as a "license to kill," but as a "license to think." Take a few moments to consider any administrative action, whether deleting, protecting, blocking, or reversing any such action, not only in terms of how it may affect the people involved, but also the project as a whole. Mistakes will be made, from time to time, let's all just try and improve situations when and where we can. – Luna Santin (talk) 23:20, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have always seen it more as "Don't revert an admin action without discussion and/or consensus". It is not about OWN, it is about not edit warring with admin actions. It is about setting a good example for the editors that instead of reverting back and forth a consensus can be formed. 1 != 2 16:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's try again. Read the following:

"I trust that my fellow admins' actions are done for the good of Misplaced Pages. So if any of my admin actions are overturned I will not consider such an action to be a "Wheel War", but rather an attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. If I disagree with your action, I will try to discuss it with you or with the admin community, but I absolve you in advance of any presumption of acting improperly. We should all extend the same benefit of the doubt to our fellow admins, until they repeatedly prove that they are unworthy of such a presumption."

After reading that, can you explain what is wrong with a good-faith revert of an admin action? Continuous reversion, when discussion has shown the matter is not clear, would be wheel-warring, but a single, reasoned overturn is not. It is balance between not letting the first admin to act to be the one to set the status quo, and avoiding admin warring. Carcharoth 17:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think 1=2 agrees with me - sorry! Carcharoth 17:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Misuse of AGF can result in "Good faith" edit wars where one user reverts in good faith and another reverts in good faith, ad infinitum. AGF doesn't exist in a vacuum as a policy, You also need to discuss changes that might be controversial before making them. Undoing another admins actions when they aren't clearly a mistake almost always causes controversy and dispute and thus shouldn't be done. Talk about it first and if a agreement can't be met between the two parties then take it somewhere for further discussions and consensus. Wikidudeman 17:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

That fails to recognise that sometimes urgent action is needed before discussion can take place (eg. reblocking for a new reason after the unblock - which wouldn't be a wheel-war anyway), or that sometimes discussions can take longer than the block length. It also opens the door for wikilawyering over blocks while the blocked person's sense of injustice increases. In all cases, some common sense should help, recognising that while there are exceptions, you need a good reason for the exception, and that continual action back and forth is harmful. Again, it is a balance and there aren't really bright-line rules that help. If someone thought one of my actions was wrong, I would prefer they undid it rather than wait for me to get back. The caveat is that if I disagree, I will discuss it with them! :-) Carcharoth 17:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

If you block a trouble maker another admin unblocks them and the person continues to cause problems then you can simply re-block per the problems caused since the unblock. No big deal there and no need to discuss. If someone is blocked and you want them unblocked and want to discuss it and the discussions occur longer then the block, so what? The person is unblocked anyway and maybe a note can be left in their block log notifying of the decision from the discussion. Wikilawyering doesn't work and it never should, ever. Wikidudeman 17:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I strongly disagree that we need a SNOW consensus situation to overturn a controversial block. A block (or any admin action) should only be upheld with consensus. A lack of consensus should be enough to reverse. Often, I feel like Misplaced Pages favors inertia a little too much. Sometimes a lack of consensus is enough to merit some sort of action. In fact, I was inspired enough to write my first essay. -Chunky Rice 18:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• If there is a consensus to overturn one of my blocks, please, go right ahead. Bearian 19:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
• OK, so leave the discussion open for a few days, or until it snows, whichever comes first. Given the traffic on this board, that's like 30 minutes - 48 hours depending on how interesting and important a case it is. Avoid unblocking without agreement of the blocking admin, or else a reasonable amount of discussion and a consensus. We all need to respect each other more. Misplaced Pages is not an anarchy. We look like a madhouse when admins run around unblocking each other without any discussion whatsoever, and the chaos encourages trolling. - Jehochman 21:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
• Per the original proposal; am I right in presuming that a "potentially controversial" block is one where there isn't a series of escalating warnings, or discussion, regarding some behaviour or other, on the talkpage, and isn't otherwise obvious vandalism and disruption? If so, I would believe that an invitation to review such an action would be most wise. If then consensus appears split, or against the block, then another admin might unblock, but should always give a clear reason to the original blocker. The block/unblock might then be discussed until a final consenus is concluded. Thems my thoughts on the matter. LessHeard vanU 22:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Note that the second point is already covered in the blocking policy, in the part about unblocking. --bainer (talk) 00:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, nice timing, Jehochman. El_C 08:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Can open, worms everywhere

It's worth noting to all administrators (in fact, all editors period) that the recent kerfuffle about no longer tolerating trolls on the 'pedia doesn't mean that any and all annoying editors/editors we disagree with/SPAs/similar are trolls.

Just like how the terms "vandal", "vandalism", "incivility" and "NPA" are now vastly overused by all and sundry when they mean "doesn't agree with me" or "is enforcing policy" etc, we should all avoid debasing the words "troll" and "disruption"/"disruptive" just because they are fashionable.

New editors pick these overused terms up quickly (in the case of "vandalism-only account", helped by Twinkle offering them a helpful checkbox to tick for AIV reports to accuse clueless newbies on their first edit or regulars on their 25,000th) and start misapplying them. We don't help this as regulars here by seizing on the term "troll" and applying it liberally - something we've started to do in the last 24 hours and are already getting thrown back at us on ANI and here.

There are trolls, there are disruptive users, there are pointless idiots we would be well shot of... but labelling thus anybody and everybody who we would have blocked anyway dilutes the power of the words and plays into the hands of the trolls themselves.

A little cautious language again, perhaps? <sideshow type="bob">And I'm aware of the irony of being the one to mention "cautious language" so there's no need to point it out</sideshow> ➔ REDVEЯS isn't wearing pants 21:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I almost uniformly use the term "disruptive" because words like "troll" and "vandal" are little more than pejoratives. I think disruptive is a good, general term for anti-social behavior in this community. It's also good because it has no bad-faith assumption attached to it; you can be disruptive while acting in the best of faith. --Haemo 01:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Yet oftentimes, "troll" and "vandal" are the only apt and succinct descriptions of editors who act as such, and serves as an eye-catcher to the problem(s) at hand. Of course, no one disputes that the words must be used with care. —Kurykh 03:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. We should refrain from commenting on editors. Describe the actions (disruptive, unencyclopedic, spam, conflict of interest, pov warring, etc). --Rocksanddirt 18:28, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

So we can't call people trolls, but we can say they are trolling? ;) EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we should have a special place where people can go and troll, just to blow off steam. Oh wait, it already exists. It's called /. - Jehochman 19:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Or call the comment what it is. Personal attack? baiting another user into incivility? be clear in descriptions of behavior that violates policy. IMO "troll" and "trolling" are meaningless. --Rocksanddirt 21:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

There's a difference between people who occasionally make personal attacks or bait other users versus those who constantly do so. Neither of those behaviors are tolerable, but people who are always attacking, baiting, disrupting, and vandalizing should be shown the door. The people who occasionally attack or get overheated in the middle of an argument, but whose editing is otherwise productive, don't need to be driven off the project. That may have been what Jimbo was referring to in his block reasoning -- that Miltopia had a consistent track record of being disruptive and that he was no longer positively contributing. --Elkman 22:13, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Good essay, Redvers. That is why my preferred term is "troublemaker". Keep in mind that Socratic questioning could be understood as trolling. (AFAICR, I've used "troll" only once -- & that was a special case.) -- llywrch 22:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Did You Know?

Did you know... that Misplaced Pages, the free encyclopaedia, placed on its front page DYK section an article about Dave Teo, a Singaporean conscript whose court case has not yet even started, let alone furnished a conviction? "We will laugh at your calamity: we will mock you when your fear cometh" (Wikiproverbs 1:26) Guy (Help!) 20:39, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

• Oh, please note, this is not a dig at anyone, updating DYK is dull handle-turning and nobody loves a dull job, I was just thinking that perhaps we should all have a look at some of the DYK noms from time to time and decline some of the more contentious ones. Including election candidates in current elections. Guy (Help!) 20:44, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • More screeners are always welcome at T:TDYK, a reasonable objection usually keeps a nom from reaching the main page. Anyone can make comments there, even IPs... screening is a pretty dull process though, as you say, but if no comments there in the 5-day period... it's hard for admins to catch everything, unopposed nominations are added by default unless there's a backlog. In this case, no one objected, although interestingly the original nom didn't mention the conscript's name. It's now off DYK altogether. --W.marsh 21:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

(ec)Sadly, DYK has joined WSS as the hive of instruction creep here in the last year. Both processes, when I last used them in 2006, were simple "post a line here, work done by others there, output to be seen here" things. A year later, both require their blocks lined up in a neat row and fuck the rest of the 'pedia, both are effectively being run by a tiny community with nothing better to do, both have huge hurdles to climb to get anywhere, both slap down anyone who complains with the crappy and creepy "well, other people manage okay so there isn't a problem (except with you)" rubric, and both make egregious errors that it is impossible to challenge safely.

The result is a process so in love with the process itself that awful rubbish is given priority without review because someone active in the clique in question has given it the nod without really thinking about it.

Root and branch reform is needed in DYK and WSS, but the clear fallout deters many people, myself included.

And, random surfers, please note the lack of personal attacks here. I'm stating my opinion and naming no names (I don't even remember any names), so save yourselves the threatening emails. ➔ REDVEЯS isn't wearing pants 22:07, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I only became involved with DYK in the last three months or so and I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. As far as I can tell it's the least bureaucratic project on Misplaced Pages. I have no idea who the ruling community is. Maybe give DYK another chance? Whatever problems you have with it must have changed. --JayHenry 01:23, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

And I don't mean to be dismissive of your concerns, I just don't know what DYK was like a year ago, so it's hard for a newcomer to see what the problem is. The whole reason I like DYK is (what I perceive to be) the complete lack of bureaucracy. There are no votes, although certain lengths of hooks and articles are suggested, anyone can do the updates and ignore the suggestions. I've frequently updated articles that are shorter than suggested, have too long of hooks, were written too long ago, or whatever, and nobody has ever given me any grief for it. --JayHenry 01:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: Dave Teo ... article was created by an administrator and there had been a comment/suggestion from a known DYK participant, so it was reasonable to assume it was up-to-snuff. As a side note, I don't do much DYK updating these days, but it had been 17 hours (!!!) since the last update and I'd had enough spare time to get that done. howcheng {chat} 22:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I might be considered part of the DYK Cabal. I would have more time for checking items like Dave Teo if I could get any interest in automating some simpler edits I do routinely, most of which aren't even in the instructions but draw complaints if they aren't done. My main contribution to instruction creep is User:Art LaPella/Long hook, but that's good instruction creep - it doesn't pop up unless it's needed, you usually don't have to read beyond the first couple sentences, and it's better than the previous un-system of constant complaining that selecting administrators should edit more for brevity. I'm puzzled by "egregious errors that it is impossible to challenge safely" - I've never worried about anything other than accuracy when challenging an error, so come on in, the water's fine. Art LaPella 01:34, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure. At the risk of more instruction creep, though, I think we should strongly discourage DYKs about people actively running for office, people with legal cases in process, anything where there is even a faint whiff of WP:BLP issues. My own view is also that allt hose cases where ten possible hooks are suggested by a single editor looking to get his own article on some wrestler or college baseball player on the front page should be speedily rejected, but that's just me :o) Guy (Help!) 12:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

whats wrong with having dave teo on dyk? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.19.150 (talk) 03:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Can someone please lock my userpage and talk page.

User page and talk page protected. Hut 8.5 10:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I've grown tired of this fighting. Maybe i'll be back in 2008. If ever. thanks for everything. muchas gracias. YoSoyGuapo 00:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Couillaud

Couillaud (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Couillaud has already warned for a 3rr violation earlier today
Personal attacks, racially insensitive language and inflamatory language with: " he still can't spell either my name or the country "Namibia". "
Saying that "YoSoyGuapo is bad at spelling and grammar is like saying that Elvis is a dead rock'n'roller"
Mocked my hispanic heritage with "If it turns out that Misplaced Pages doesn't have the cojones to deal forcefully with this kind of trolling, I don't think I'll stick around"
Calling me "googleman" because I research articles.
stating that I learned English last week
commenting on my spelling and stating that he was a grammar nazi
YoSoyGuapo 00:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a larger thread about these users here. IrishGuy 01:04, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that's why it's been largely ignored there ---- it's toolarge. Many individual comments made by the participants is a monitor screen-full or more! (See my talk page for more examples). YoSoyGuapo (talk · contribs) above has been indefblocked for edit warring and was unblocked (by Tony the Marine) with the stipulation that edit wars - like this one - would end. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• User:Wknight94, Thank you for alerting me to the situation. You are right, I did give User:YoSoyGuapo on the condition that he acted in civil manner. I have looked into this outrageous situation as you have recommended in my talk page. I will therefore proceed to comment.

1. User:Couillaud is a valued editor whose knowledge and contributions are well appreciated in Misplaced Pages. I can understand your frustration in the Josh Gibson issue and I can also understand that User:YoSoyGuapo, wanted to post that Gibson possibly had 800+ homers. The problem here was that you, YoSoyGuapo pushed your observations resulting in revert war which should have been settled instead in the articles talk page. You both should have agreed to simple consensus and I'm sure that you both would have found an agreeable solution. That should have been the end of it. Instead this was the beginning of a war between both of you.

2. User:YoSoyGuapo, I told you when we made the agreement that you should no longer edit under the IP: User:64.131.205.111. However, I see that you have done so in various occasions, especially to the article King's Daughters. This not only can be considered trolling, but not only are you in violation of our agreement but, you maybe be accused of sockpuppteering which is against our policy. I can understand that at times a person may forget to sign in. It has happened to me, but if you use this IP address you will be blocked.

3. User:YoSoyGuapo, User:Couillaud was right in the fact that you should not have inserted the "Namibia" section into the "King's Daughters" since it had nothing to do with the main subject of the article. It could have gone into a "See also" section. However, User:Couillaud I can understand YoSoyGuapo's anger at you taunting his "English" which was out of place.

4. YoSoyGuapo, you cannot warn anyone about clearing thier "talk page". Users are allowed to clear their user pages and your "warning" without authority seems to me a hostile act on your part.

5. YoSoyGuapo, what did I ask you in our agreement? I asked you that you should avoid wars and whenever a situation came up that you should ask for a mediator for a solution. Neither of you did this which has resulted in this senseless war.

I'm going to suggest that both of you put an end to this nonsense. End it right now. YoSoyGuapo lay off the "King's Daughters" article because it seems as if you are stalking Couillaud as a result of the "Josh Gibson" incident and go about editing in other areas where your knowledge is well appreciated. Do not indulge in reverting wars and look for mediation whenever a situation comes up instead of this back and forth arguing which ends up in a hostile situation.

The same goes for you Couillaud, plus refrain yourself from making comments which may offend other users, even if it is done in a third party's talk page. This said, I want you to know that I appreciate your baseball contributions in Misplaced Pages and that you should not leave. I have been tempted myself many times, but I have overcome worst situations. Tony the Marine 06:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm back!

Hey everyone, I'm back from a wayyyyy long wikibreak (over a year!). I'm going to get back into the swing of things and hopefully be editing on a somewhat regular basis again as well as doing RfA promotions and name changes and the like.

Could someone be so kind as to inform me of any major changes that have occurred during the year that I was gone? Linuxbeak (AAAA!) 01:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Welcome back. There's always a need for active admin and crats... WjBscribe 01:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Um. Do you want to read 52 issues of the Misplaced Pages:Signpost? :-) I can't actually think of what the major things were that happened. As always, check the CSD wordings and policies, as subtle changes might have happened that could trip someone up. Oh, there was a Community Sanctions Noticeboard that opened and then closed. There was an Essjay controversy. Something called WikiScanner caught loads of people, including the US Congress, editing their bios to make themselves look good. I'm sure others will add some of the more important stuff I've forgotten. Oh, RfA is (still) "broken", but managing to function OK despite perennial calls for reform. There were a few controversial RfAs. Oh, and the first adminbot got approved a few weeks ago. There was a big kerfuffle about something called Misplaced Pages:Attribution. There were also ArbCom Elections nearly a year ago, and you are back just in time for this year's elections. Jimbo also pulled a few rabbits out of hats every now and again, to keep everyone on their toes. What else happened? Did Esperanza close this year, or was that last year? Ooh. Need to start keeping a diary! :-) Carcharoth 21:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC) Misplaced Pages Yearbook, anyone?

You guys forgot Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Jimbo Wales. Welcome back! Neranei (talk) 21:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh look! Another adminbot RFA! Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/TempDeletionBot. And anonymous page creation is about to be turned back on in a few days, so people are gearing up for a big flood that might never arrive. Carcharoth 21:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow! Welcome back indeed. Your reputation precedes you :) It's hard to know where to start on the news, though. WP:SIGNPOST and its archives? - Alison 21:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, we need to start hiring historians. bibliomaniac15 A straw poll on straw polls 22:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

They are currently busy writing our encyclopedic content on history... Carcharoth 23:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Michelle Merkin POTD

Moved to Misplaced Pages talk:Picture of the day/Michelle Merkin POTD over concern over proper forum for discussion. Please move to a better location if there is one. - Wikidemo 01:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Further move - have moved to WP:POTD, as this is something relating to POTD. This is not an admin concern. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

All this fuss over a rather scrappily Photoshopped composite! What joy. Guy (Help!) 12:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Note that Guy's response to this discovery has been to go around deleting the image from all relevant (and admittedly irrelevant) articles. See my note on Guy's talk page.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 12:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Um, no, actually my response has been to review the articles in which it's used and see if it's appropriate. We don't just include an image because the caption says (without benefit of a source) that this person embodies the ideals of physical beauty, that's POV. Guy (Help!) 14:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

We have ideals of physical beauty? looks appropriately shocked at such news I wish people would tell me about these new fangled inventions sooner.--Alf 14:25, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I had set up User talk:Howcheng/MerkinPOTD for discussion exactly for this purpose... howcheng {chat} 17:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Dealing with persistent copyright abusers

Friends, I direct your attention to the upload log and talk page of someone I think we can all agree is a problem user. As you can see, he continued uploading copyrighted images long after his talk page was riddled with copyright notices, and long after the images started to be deleted en masse. Now that Shell Kinney, who pointed him out at PUI, and I (and you) have our eye on him, obviously he'll be monitored if he continues to upload images, and blocked if need be. But I think we need to have a conversation about how we deal with such users in general. Is there an easy way to track the people who Orphanbot and the others are hitting most frequently? Should they be blocked on sight? It's pretty obvious they're not paying much attention to their talk pages, so it becomes hard to reason with them. Thoughts? Chick Bowen 02:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I would say use one of the 'Uploading inappropriate images' templates, probably, for this excess, at level three, and then follow up on it the next upload. The copyright notices only work, as you know, when someone actually pays attention, so warn him, block him (or have him blocked) despite the fact he's ignoring the page , and then force him to have nowhere to talk except his page. None of his current (excessive) warnings mention being blocked, so he has no reason to pay the slightest attention to them. The tools are there, but they're not clear, and perhaps we need some more (severe) image warnings for users like this (the image warnings are sparse at WP:UTM) --Thespian 02:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

IMO, it would be more effective to talk to the editor without using templates... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.186.244.249 (talk) 02:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It usually is, and I prefer it, but if the editor has persistantly ignored posts to his talk page, and it is unsure that they are even *looking* at it, it does lend itself to becoming time to get his attention more forcibly. There are 53 warnings on his page, almost all of them about this issue, and almost all of them about images that were deleted because the user didn't respond to them (to save them or otherwise). If the user doesn't respond to talk pages (and in this case, they haven't ever posted to a talk page for any of the articles they write for, either), it does call for a stronger way of getting their attention. I am unsure, in this case, if the user will pay attention and work with the project (which would be nice, as they're obviously very enthusiastic, though they don't grasp/pay attention to copyright law) or simply create a new account. --Thespian 03:09, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

ETA: I wonder if it might be worth looking into adding 'blocked from uploading' to Help:Block_and_unblock#Blocking_options the blocking options, as this user doesn't seem to have any real problems with content, just images. I'm also going to post a note letting them know of this discussion, on the off chance they'll see it and respond. --Thespian 03:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

And yet, the only way that we can effectively stop the uploads is by blocking the user from doing anything on Misplaced Pages. I knew it was mentioned before that we can block for this, but we just need to dig it out saying where it can be done. User:Zscout370 03:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

right. I know that we currently can't, I was just wondering if it could be made into an option. I didn't mean just adding it to the page, I meant to the blocking options as a whole; this is a tech musing, and it will certainly not happen in time to deal with this user! --Thespian 03:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I have thought about it several times; that would make things a lot easier if we could just turn off uploads for users without having to block them. User:Zscout370 03:37, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, perhaps, but in this case the problem is simpler than that: the user does not seem to be reading or heeding the messages. This is a good reason to block him, in my view - he will then have to engage in dialogue, at which point we can find out if he is one of those who rejects the whole idea of copyright, or whether he simply doesn't get why it's important. Guy (Help!) 09:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah; that's why I made the suggestion as above (and indeed, why I notified him, to see if he was just ignoring warnings or the whole page), so his attention could be grabbed. But I suspect him not having upload privs, since that seems to be most of his work, would do the same. --Thespian 09:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

And what Guy said before worked in one case; I blocked a user over the images and I got an email from him months later. I agree a block should be done now. User:Zscout370 18:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I've indefinitely blocked the user. In cases like these, all of those messages serve as warnings. In a recent case, the user agreed not to work at all in the Image space as a condition of his unblocking.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:45, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

And I have put Template:Indefblockeduser on his user page. Greg Jones II 00:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Request review of WP:U block on User:Sexybeast6989

This username was reported at WP:UAA. I regarded it as borderline, but ultimately judged it to nominally violate #3, bullet 5 at Wp:u#Detailed_examples. User:I, who created the account as a legitimate sock and has since created User:Sbfw for the same purpose, asked that I have some other admins review the block. I don't have strong feelings about it, so if someone would like to unblock it, please go right ahead and let I know. Thanks! Dppowell 04:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I did not create the Sexybeast account, actually. I created the sbfw one, and was trying to figure something out with the html tags using this account's preferences, and forgot to restore this signature. Just to clear that up. i (talk) 04:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

My apologies; I was drawing an inference from your objections on my talk page and from your new account name, which appeared to be an abbreviation/variation on the blocked account. Dppowell 05:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't unblock it. The username is marginally in violation of the username policy but it's one deleted contribution was a nonsense article so I don't hold out too much hope for useful edits.--Sandahl 05:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Concur with Sandahl. If it were just the "Sexybeast" I could probably see it as okay, but with that edit and "69" in the name, it's a violation in my view. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Also 89 is synonymous with titty fuck, (pardon the expression). Combined with 69 and sexybeast is an obvious reference to sexual slang. Jackaranga 12:42, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow! It's ... ummm ... amazing what you can learn on Misplaced Pages - Alison 21:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, folks. Dppowell 13:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It may be that 89 is the user's birth year? Lemon martini 14:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Important!

Hesperian (a well-known administrator) has been blocked for no particular reason. He is a user in good standing and has done nothing to deserve the block (it was possibly directed at a vandal school IP). Please unblock if possible. Thanks, Auroranorth (sign) 05:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

He's unblocked now, Aurora. I think it was just an error. Thanks, Sarah 05:58, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I was just about to strike the request. Auroranorth (sign) 05:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite block of User:Gene Nygaard

I am extending the block of Gene Nygaard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to indefinite duration, given his long track record of WP:POINT violations and disruptive incivility. My feeling is that the project can survive perfectly well without his contributions, and that he has been sufficiently warned to have enabled him to change his manner should he have so desired. To clarify matters before any accusations of wheel-warring, my decision is revesible by any administrator. Physchim62 (talk) 14:41, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• Fair enough. I considered that myself at the time. Nothing personal, I think Gene's personality is simply too combative to be conducive to consensus-based editing. Guy (Help!) 14:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I object to the indefinite block. I don't see evidence of consensus for a community ban. Gene is frequently uncivil and overly-stubborn, and I have been on the receiving end of his sarcasm, but he has (and is, up until his block) been doing some fine work on the encyclopedia. Firsfron of Ronchester 14:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't object to the block, but I believe that the admins involved need to look very closely at the various IP's and users (I specifically refer to User:Greg L) who have been baiting Gene. ⇒SWATJester 14:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• The man has 50k mainspace contributions, the great majority of which are just fine. Until this week he had a total of three unreversed blocks, the longest of which was 48 hours. I feel that going straight to an indefinite block at this point is not called for. The weeklong block, straight on the heels of a 72 hour block was already a very substantial action. Haukur 14:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Consensus for a community ban is not needed before an indef block. I have noted the above comments, I'm now going out for a coffee :) As I mentioned above, if an administrator feels that I have been too bold, especially following the discussion above and any further discussion here, then they should replace the original 7-day ban. Otherwise, I stand by my action, at the same time opening it for calm discussion. Physchim62 (talk) 14:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• Can you prove a small selection of diffs to illustrate the WP:POINT behavior? There is nothing wrong with an indefinite block because it can be refactored if the user admits mistakes and expresses a sincere desire to improve. - Jehochman 15:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

FOR BACKGROUND ON THIS: See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Disruption_of_Wikipedia:Wikiquette_alerts_by_Rlevse — Rlevse • Talk • 15:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• My contribution to the calm discussion is that there is no need for an indefinite block at this stage. Apart from the incivility, the contributions are good. And to be frank, some of the incivility is stuff that could be shrugged off if people looked past the incivilty and saw the point being raised. If someone says something relevant to me, while being incivil, I try to look past the incivility and learn from the advice that is being given. I try not to ignore the advice and, hackles raised, get all upset about the incivility. Also, the escalating lengths of the blocks has only been 24 hours, 48 hours, 74 hours, 1 week (not yet served) and then suddenly a move to indefinite. I would suggest reblocking at the one week level, and then escalating further to a month and so on, if the incivility continues. Carcharoth 15:11, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• How hard would it be for the user to apologize and promise not to repeat the same mistake? I think that's a very easy condition for an unblock or reduction. - Jehochman 15:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Many users react to a long block with an outburst of outrage. So far, as far as I know, Gene has been silent. We can't really hold that against him. Not to mention that for all we know he went camping after his last edit yesterday and doesn't know about the block bidding-war since then. Haukur 15:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Noting that I'm the person who issued the 72-hr block, I think the block should be reduced back to the 1 week block, per Carcharoth. — Rlevse • Talk • 15:15, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• "How hard would it be for the user to apologize and promise not to repeat the same mistake?" - by that argument, all blocks should be indefinite until the person who is blocked apologises for whatever behaviour allegedly caused the block. That sort of system would soon collapse as it would actually promote wheel-warring ("because he hasn't apologised!") or would promote bad-faith apologies. It also presumes that all blocks are correct, and makes blocking a more humiliating experience than it is at the moment, and brings up the disturbing image of some admins dangling a carrot of "apologise before I unblock you". Apologising should be natural, not forced. Carcharoth 15:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect to Physchim, I feel an indefinite block at this point is counterproductive to building encyclopedic content, and have restored the seven-day block. It is very clear that Gene has been uncivil and has made personal attacks, per this. However, comments on the administrator's noticeboard indicate that several users feel that the method of prevention of disturbance to the encyclopedia in this case (an indefinite block) is excessive. As Phychim has indicated he does not object to undoing the indefinite block, I have done so. It is my hope that Gene can reform his habits and return to building the encyclopedia when his block expires. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Firsfron (talk • contribs) 15:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• When a pattern of behavior has been long term, I think it makes sense that the block should last until the user expresses a desire to change. The apology thing, Carcharoth, wouldn't be necessary on the first or maybe second incident. This user was given several short blocks, so he was clearly on notice that the behavior needed to change, yet he continued. We're sending a message, but he's not getting it. Thus, there is a logic in blocking him until we have evidence that the message is received and understood. It's no big deal that the block was refactor to 7 days, either, because P62 invited that. - Jehochman 16:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
• Carcharoth, actually that would be a good idea. If we never unblocked anyone until we were sure that they appreciated what they'd done wrong and were determined not to do it again, life might be a lot quieter. Guy (Help!) 17:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• That depends on how you define "we" and "sure". I don't think it would be workable. The real trolls would always show enough contrition to get someone to unblock them, and there would be arguments over the detail of apologies that would be too lame for words. Carcharoth 18:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think making unblocks conditional on contrition is a good idea. We're encyclopedists here, not confessors. Their moral state of mind should be none of our business. It's not hard to issue escalating blocks over behavior without once considering motivations. That way lies... complications. It's a simple cause-and-effect thing: "Act this way, and you'll be blocked; if you wish not to be blocked, don't act that way." -GTBacchus 19:44, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

As a long time editor Gene is serious, rational, competent and hard working. He has always shown the best intentions for this project. The problems with his manor are small compared to all that, in my opinion.

An indefinite ban of this type of editor is rare. I'd like to ask that any off-wiki conversations on this topic be noted here now. --Duk 16:49, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I am against an indefinite block but would support the case to be taken to arbitration. Some kind of parole could be an option. I have had clashes with him in the past over trivial issues that he stubbornly blew out of proportion. His campaign against anything with diacritics on has made him no friends in many occassions. Nonetheless, I agree that he is a hardworking contributor and it would be particularly cruel to impose a community ban. Regards, Asterion 17:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Block reduction noted. In the light of the above comments, the restoration of the original block has my support. Physchim62 (talk) 18:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, I think this thread can be wrapped up. Any philosophical discussions can be continued elsewhere. - Jehochman 20:14, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • See new section below: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Targeted sanctions for Gene Nygaard?. Carcharoth 11:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Targeted sanctions for Gene Nygaard?

Header added and new section split off by Carcharoth 11:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I have a long history of conflicts with Gene Nygaard, although none is currently active (phew). Most of Gene's contributions to the project have been positive, but when it comes to diacritics things get ugly. I think that a probation against incivility and diacritics-warring would be the best way to deal with Gene's bad temper. A permanent ban should be issued by the arbcom, which I find unlikely. Húsönd 01:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

"A permanent ban should be issued by the arbcom"? I think you've got it backwards. The ArbCom issues one year bans and various probations and paroles, but rarely indefinite bans. The community is largely the other way around. Picaroon (t) 01:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't a community-imposed ban on page moves be the obvious solution? From what I can see (looking at his logs), he moves pages from spellings with diacritics to those without. He is right to ask people to find references to support the spellings with diacritics. What I can see is mainly a tendency to assume he is right and move things without sufficient (or any) discussion, and (to varying extents) to be incivil about it at the same time. He is quite right to insist on lack of diacritics in category and DEFAULTSORT keys, as diacritics (and lower case letters) do mess up the sorting. That is in the category sorting guidelines. So, again, a targeted community sanction based on page moves and incivility is probably what arbcom would come up with, so why don't we just do that now? He should still be part of the discussions on the topic, if he can be civil in those discussions. This is also complicated by the fact that he does lots of perfectly good page moves as well. It seems that the diacritics is really the bone of contention here. All this would only work, though, if he agreed to it, so maybe this discussion should reconvene when the block expires? If the community can't agree on a targeted solution like this, then take it to arbcom. Carcharoth 11:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to pile on but I've also had a couple run-ins with Gene Nygaard where civility has gone out the window from his first edit - and those run-ins go back years! Blocks of escalating lengths should have begun a long time ago IMHO. I can think of a few editors - Tecmobowl (talk · contribs) comes to mind - who were permabanned for similar levels of incivility over far smaller ranges of time (months instead of years). And Tecmobowl/Jmfangio was creating GA and FA-level articles during his tumultuous time here. —Wknight94 (talk) 13:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The Tecmobowl decision is here. It seems that was more for the sockpuppeting (not a consideration here, obviously). Before the sockpuppeting, it seems that a topic ban was being considered, though I haven't read the whole debate. Talking of escalating blocks, it would help if people clarified where the jump-off point to indefinite is. Tecmobowl seems to have been another case of various 24 and 48 hour blocks, followed by a one week block that turned into an indefinite one, in his case when he carried on his edits using sockpuppets during the CSN discussion (I think). Carcharoth 15:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Gene Nygaard ALREADY HAS A MOVE BAN: Misplaced Pages:Community_sanction/Log#Gene_Nygaard_is_banned_from_non_consensual_article_moves_until_further_notice. For additional info, see: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive141#Is_this_disruption.3F, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive141#Implementation_of_Gene_Nygaard_article_move_ban, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive130#User:Gene_Nygaard_pages_moves, Misplaced Pages:Community_sanction/Log#Gene_Nygaard_is_banned_from_non_consensual_article_moves_until_further_notice, User_talk:Gene_Nygaard/2006Aug-2006Oct#You_are_banned_from_non_consensual_article_moves_until_further_notice, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive210#User:Gene_Nygaard, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive227#Blocking_User:Gene_Nygaard. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Right, I see that now. All I was working from was his block log, which has no mention of being blocked per such a sanction. Is there a place to check for such community sanctions (I see there is a Log subpage - is that easy to search?), or did they all go out of the window when the noticeboard was closed down? I also see that the previous discussions didn't mention the CSN discussions. Did you only just find them? And why, oh why, did no one actual enforce those previous sanctions?? I still think that escalating enforcement is a good idea, but that jumping from one week to indefinite is too soon. Is there a scale somewhere that people use? Can you block for a month, two months, a year? I know Arbcom use (or have used) such lengths, so why does the community seem to jump from 48 hours to a week, and then straight to indefinite? Carcharoth 15:46, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

All one has to do is check "What links here" (what linked to Gene's userpage), and filtering to show only Misplaced Pages pages. Why no one has enforced this, I don't know. The community sanctions are still there and they are still in force. I only came across Gene recently. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I've been looking into this a bit more deeply, and Gene does have a point. Not many people are aware that redirects are needed from non-diacritic titles, and that category sorting keys need to use non-diacritic characters (please be honest and say whether you knew the latter point about sort keys before reading these threads). Gene's method of using page moves to draw more attention to this sort of thing is not good, but rather than block him and brush this under the carpet, we need to consider how to make more people aware of the need for non-diacritic redirects and non-diacritic sort keys. I know a bit about this, because I recently suggested a bot to fix the use of non-diacritic sort keys (the bot would also need to make lower case letters at the start of words, into upper case letters, an eliminate punctuation like apostrophes). I also read Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive141#Is this disruption?, and one point Gene raised there was not addressed. Does anyone know whether search engines ignore diacritics or not? Gene's point was: "Redirects don't solve all the problems; articles can still be hidden from many search engine searches as a result of these moves accompanied by spelling changes within the article itself." Could someone try and address that, please? I did a test search for Ramūnas Šiškauskas, by searching for "Ramunas Siskauskas", and the Misplaced Pages article still appeared at the top of the search results (Google). I think that if we get a bot correcting the sort keys, and make an effort to encourage creation of redirects (a thankless task, but one that is needed), then we might be able to get somewhere. A similar case is for redirects involving middle initials, or forename initials. These too are desperately needed to turn redlinks blue, and this should be separated out from the disputes over where exactly among a plethora of alternatives the article should reside. Carcharoth 16:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, Husond, you are mixing the civility dispute with the diacritics dispute. Separate the two, and focus on Gene's recent edits to make your case. Otherwise your request for a targeted sanction isn't credible. more comments to come... --Duk 17:35, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Carcharoth, you're right that the diacritic indexing is little-known. But the correct way to educate people is not by calling them simplistic or calling them fools (that last talk page is a nice example of Gene Nygaard's diplomacy skills). —Wknight94 (talk) 17:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey I didn't start all this! :-) But be it, Gene's incivility comes from his views on diacritics so these issues can hardly be dissociated. I don't even think that there's much point in focusing much on recent events, as Gene's misbehavior has remained unchanged for years. Block after block, here we are. I think it's time for an effective remedy to be found. Húsönd 18:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. It strikes me as odd that he mixes the two. How diacritics are sorted in a category hardly seems worth warring over and yet he has done so for years. I once suggested that he request a bot to take care of those but was met with yet another snippy response. If a bot could do something, it can't be worth getting uncivil for. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me, Husond, that your remedy is to silence an editor with views different than your own. You are using argument B (incivility) to win argument A (the content dispute). Have you no shame? --Duk 18:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Some comments:

1. Gene's incivility - This is highly subjective. It has never bothered me in the least - even when directed at me. For others, it is highly upsetting, and I respect their feelings. Others probably don't really don't care. And still others play up the incivility because they didn't do well in a content debate with Gene, even if these people can't recognize or admit it. Since this is highly subjective, there needs to be many views heard. This is a case where it is not acceptable for off-wiki collusion among buddies to make these judgments. There seems to be a growing consensus here for simple blocks of varying duration every time Gene pisses off enough people.
3. Content disputes - In the past, I've seen people in content disputes with Gene who don't do to well debating him, so they switch to his incivility - trying to use argument B to win argument A. I hope we are all smart enough here not to accept this. Many of Gene's battles revolve around his familiar refrain "why the hell isn't the English Misplaced Pages written in English". Husond gets close to mixing these two in the first paragraph of this section. They need to be separate, and Gene has done well lately, I believe, in not revert warring over page name moves. Therefore, I don't agree with a diacritics-related ban. If Husond wants to make a case for this, he needs to separate the content dispute from the civility dispute, and to look at recent editing. It seems to me that Husond just wants to silence an editor who he has a content dispute with.
5. Making a place for technical editors - I've seen many editors that are detail orientated. They tend to work hard and specialize in a focused area, becoming highly skilled in that particular area. They shoot for project-wide consistency, which inevitably brings conflict. These editors are generally non-social. They don't hang out in irc or come to the project to make a lot of friends, which puts them at a natural disadvantage when disputes arise. These types of editors also tend to be stubborn as hell, but valuable to the project. They are immune to social pressure and only listen to logic. There is a lot to gain by finding ways to include these types of editors, but many people don't understand how to interact with them. In a few cases, I've seen editors like this become embroiled in ever growing conflicts over amazingly trivial stuff - and eventually leaving. The important thing to realize here that both sides of the dispute were being stubborn. The inability to get along wasn't one-sided.
7. All that being said - I support Guy's latest block of Gene and hope he comes back with better behavior. --Duk 18:31, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Instruction creep issue

I invite all administrators and editors to examine Misplaced Pages:Translation, an area I used to frequent all of the time but can no longer understand (or do not have the attention span to go through all of it) for example, here is a (once) deleted revision of when the translation process was much simpler: User:RyanGerbil10/GermanOverhaul. If you can figure out our current system, kudos; I wish it would go back. RyanGerbil10(C-Town) 15:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I used the system a year or so ago, I think. It was bad, but I got an article out of it at the end. Carcharoth 16:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Janitorial tasks from multiple accounts

An editor recently requested my assistance when Resurgent insurgent (talk · contribs) reviewed and declined WP:CSD taggings. When asked why he noted "Well, I'm an admin." . The editor noticed Resurgent insurgent was categorised in Category:Misplaced Pages administrators, but not listed at Special:Listusers/sysop, leading to the editor suspecting Resurgent insurgent was impersonating an admin. Anyway, turns out Resurgent insurgent is one of a number of declared socks of Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) which does have the tools. Both accounts are currently active and appear to be used interchangeably. While I don't think this set up is used with any intent to mislead, it nevertheless appears to be contrary to the spirit of Misplaced Pages:Administrators: "Although multiple user accounts are allowed on Misplaced Pages in certain circumstances, only one account of a given person should have administrative tools." and Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry#Administrative sock puppets: "The community has strongly rejected users having more than one username with admin powers... only one account with access greater than that of a normal user account should be operated." I asked Resurgent insurgent if he would consider restricting the janitorial tasks we ask of admins (such as declining CSDs, protection requests etc) to the account with sysop status, if only to stop this type of confusion happening again. He doesn't appear particularly amenable to this, suggesting his account is "policy-compliant". I thought wider opinion may be of value. Rockpocket 21:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the main issue that causes confusion is not appropriately labeling or declaring these sock accounts. For example, I have a secondary account that I use on public computers, but this account is clearly labeled (and even has the same signature), so any confusion should be short-lived if I chose to do admin-like tasks with this account. As long as the user does some kind of step like this to reduce ambiguity, I don't think occasionally using a secondary account for janitorial tasks should cause too many problems. Eric (EWS23) 21:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

To be fair, he does list all his sock accounts on his Resurgent insurgent user page, and all accounts redirect there. The problem is this account is not the one with sysop status. I don't really have a problem with declared socks doing the odd non-controversial janitorial task, but I would expect the principal account, the puppeteer, to be the one with the tools. That isn't the case in this instance. Rockpocket 21:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

any user can remove CSD taggings, not only administrators, per WP:CSD. Thus he was technically not using the tools on the other account. I agree, though, that it is a little confusing. 00:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

User block

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Necator (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) can post an {{unblock}} request on their talk page just like everybody else, rather than forum shopping in advance. ➔ REDVEЯS isn't wearing pants 22:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The Guy have blamed user Necator for MPOV pushing without adducing any proof. And did not even let the user go through WP:DR Just banned him when he tried to rise request for mediation.

I'm requesting to unban user Necator. 91.122.11.224 22:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

• Which is you, right? The block was for POV-pushing, WP:OWN, forum shopping, blaming everyone else for the fact that everyone else reverts your edits, and generally not getting it. Guy (Help!) 22:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

AWB requests to check

I'm supposed to nicely point out that there are requests at Misplaced Pages talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage that are over 24 hours old. Thank you :) TheHYPO 22:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

 Done --After Midnight 01:50, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

みんなはこの”神との対話”を読む。いや、読まなくても良い。

Could an admin who reads the above language take a look at the deleted edits on User:Akanemoto. This user has requested the deletion of his/her user page nearly 50 times. Curious, I submitted some of the text to a translator, and Akanemoto appears to be using the page as a way to communicate with somebody. Interesting stuff (phrases such as "everyone is healthy", "I want to be free"), but this page may need to be protected from recreation or the user blocked. Comments welcome. - auburnpilot talk 22:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

That "somebody" seems to be God (神). --BorgQueen 22:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Babelfish, always useless even between related European languages, suggests Everyone reads "the conversation with this God". Well, you do not read and also the is good. Which makes a certain gnomic sense. Personally, I'd undelete the entire page, then blank it, then protect the blank version. Most work, but least trouble and eliminates the problem in future. ➔ REDVEЯS isn't wearing pants 23:04, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

(ec)Appears to be Japanese, as it usually makes more sense when spit through the Japanese translator than the Chinese option. Either way, I've protected the page. Akanemoto requested yet another deletion just minutes ago. - auburnpilot talk 23:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:SSP backlog

This is starting to back up again. Can we get more admins involved? Tks. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:25, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Fuck SSP, check out the backlog here. It would be greatly appreciated if any admins who are even remotely versed in image policy could help out. east.718 at 05:27, 11/4/2007

that's not very appropriate language, esp for an admin. Pointing out other backlogs is fine, but disparging another admin task is hardly appropriate. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:50, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Burntsauce impending ban (and effects at AFD)

I am watching the Alkivar ArbCom case unfold and it appears that Burntsauce (talk · contribs) will soon be banned as a meatpuppet of JB196 (talk · contribs) (see ...#Burntsauce banned). I mention this because I see quite a few !votes by Burntsauce in open AFDs which I figure need to be disregarded as banned user edits. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Disregard away. Picaroon (t) 03:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

:Copied with attribution to the Bureaucrat's noticeboard. Keegan 05:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

My mistake, I thought he'd participated in RfA recently but I am wrong. Whoopsie. Keegan 05:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

New user closing AfD Discussion after 2 hours

I was just looking at the AfD list for today, and Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lee Jones (author) has been closed as a Speedy Keep, after less than 2 hours, by User:Icestorm815, a user who had only been editing actively for about 2 months. I have no opinion on outcome of the AfD itself, but this nomination was made by an admin in good faith. Even if another admin had closed it so quickly it would have been suspect. Two of the four keep !voters have edited the article, so not exactly unbiased consensus either way.

The point is, a relatively new user should not be closing good faith AfDs after less than 2 hours. Could an admin deal with this and possibly let User:Icestorm815 how things work there? If this continues we'll be getting users closing any AfD they disagree after a couple of hours just because someone said "speedy keep". Crazysuit 05:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

• It's a valid speedy keep, but as usual (frustratingly) the assertions of notability and the claim of many sources have not translated into edits to the article. This often happens with AfD, and means that it might all happen again. So if you'd like to encourage the keep advocates to improve the article, you'd be doing the project a service. Guy (Help!) 08:52, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Please also note comments being made at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Poker#Lee Jones.--Alf 09:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no major problems with non-admins and even new users closing discussions as long as they follow policy. The main concern is the possibility of abuse, by closing discussions prematurely or closing with a COI. But we have Misplaced Pages:Deletion review for that, and users are warned or even blocked if they abuse the process. Apparently, this particular case warranted a Speedy Keep, so no harm was done. - Mtmelendez 11:06, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but how exactly did this qualify as a speedy keep? It comes nowhere close, as far as I can see. There was nowhere near enough time for discussion whether the (admittedly many) web sources do indeed constitute non-trivial coverage in reliable sources. Most web hits seem to be from either booksellers, or private blogs or commercial sites. Do any of these qualify as reliable sources? I'll have no problem if it should in fact be determined that they do, but it's not something about which a SNOW-like consensus can simply be assumed. Recommend overturning this invalid non-admin closure and waiting out the discussion period. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep, it's one of those where if you know who the subject is, the nomination appears ridiculous, but if you don't... ELIMINATORJR 12:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

...then knowledgeable folks should add information to provide context to the article. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. ELIMINATORJR 14:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

That's why I said apparently. (:-) - Mtmelendez 14:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment on the main topic here: has anyone determined whether or not this new user is actually an old user wearing a new coat? --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 12:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

A litle AGF is needed here. The bottom line is to determine whether the speedy closure in question was valid, which I think it is. If anything, we should be pleased that there are experienced non-administrators who are willing to help out with the AfD backlog. PeaceNT 12:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I've overturned the closure. There's no harm in having this go through the full process. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:26, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Complicated cut and paste move needs fixing

Bronx-Whitestone Bridge (old history) has the old history of Bronx-Whitestone Bridge, which does not appear in the current article. Bronx Whitestone Bridge has the history of what's now in Bronx-Whitestone Bridge. The two histories overlap in time. Can somebody fix this, and let me know if I could have handled it better? Thank you. --NE2 10:08, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll also need Queens-Midtown Tunnel deleted (no real history here, fortunately) so Queens Midtown Tunnel can be moved. --NE2 10:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Dang! That was indeed complicated. It's been fixed, anyway. :) PeaceNT 10:49, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

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