Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk | contribs) at 19:27, 30 November 2007 (→Giovanni Giove (redux): blocking). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

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• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Re: Dynamic anon IP stalking 2 users

• 71.127.226.19 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 72.68.125.254 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 72.76.8.217 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 71.127.232.179 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 72.76.104.91 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 72.76.13.102 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

New accounts, signed up solely to attack one article and its creator via WP:COI/N and Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject LGBT studies, has a Verizon IP address tracking to Newark, New Jersey (nwrknj.east.verizon.net) matching many others previously reported for the same pattern of attacks. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 04:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems to have stopped for the last day or so; however there is something to be concerned about here. Definitely seems to be pursuing someone. If he starts up again, a block for disruptive editing and wikistalking should be strongly considered. Daniel Case (talk) 05:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

It's useless here, Daniel, as the stalker is on a dynamic IP that changes faster than Washington State's weather. -Jéské 02:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Another new account - same IP origin at nwrknj.east.verizon.net - is continuing the attack as 72.68.125.254 (talk · contribs). . Gordonofcartoon (talk) 22:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

See this discussion Mangojuice's talk page, as well, This has been going on for over a month. It seems from previous discussions that there is little to do about it, but it is distressing to the prime target, Benjiboi, and those of us who are his colleagues here. Is it not possible to range block? I mean, if we can block all of Qatar from editing, can't we block a few anons who happen to be Verizon customers? Jeffpw (talk) 09:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Contact the ISP and tell them about the harassment and where it's coming from - I'm certain that harassing others falls under the things that can get someone's Verizon account terminated. Otherwise, we can't rangeblock except for short periods due to collateral damage. I am, however, starting an independent sockpuppet investigation page on this guy; I have dealt with him on Sister Roma. -Jéské 05:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The 2 IPs listed here are on 2 different /11 ranges. Blocking them both (if we could do it - we can't) would potentially block millions of people. Mr.Z-man 05:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the intel, Z-Man. Maybe an abuse or LTA report is in order? And could we get someone to close the COI/N thread he's started as bad-faith? -Jéské 05:59, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

A sock 72.76.13.102 is continuing to add to the thread at WP:COI/N despite it being formally resolved. What's the protocol? Can we delete it as vandalism? Move to the poster's Talk page? Gordonofcartoon (talk)

The IP is dynamic, so he will miss talk page notes. I've since protected COI/N since at this point he's simply using it to troll and harass Benjiboi, leaving a link to a section on my talk page for IPs to submit COI reports. -Jéské 02:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

ISI Page

I have a screamsheet on him up here. Feel free to add onto it if you have information. -Jéské 06:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Update

The diffs in the COI case were utterly unconvincing and countered his own claims. I have closed tyhe thread; can we get someone on the phone to Verizon's NJ headquarters to report this person for harassment (if possible)? -Jéské 02:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Could we PLEASE get someone to contact Verizon?! -Jéské 20:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Whois shows a phone number as "OrgAbusePhone". Perhaps we should try that or "OrgAbuseEmail". SmileToday☺(talk to me , My edits) 02:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm asking if someone will do it because, in off-Wiki communication, I am rather meek when asking others higher in station than myself unless I'm familiar with them. -Jéské 05:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Semi-prot review

I have semi-protected WP:COI/N to stop the person behind the IP from using it to keep needling Benjiboi. I request a review of the prot. -Jéské 20:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Violation of agreement - Icsunonove

No admin action necessary

Several weeks ago, Future Perfect at Sunrise mediated between myself and Icsunonove for a permanent topic ban on editing with regards to the South Tyrol page/talk page. In a very short time, it now seems that Icsunonove is showing his true colors by ignoring/violating the ban with no regard to what was reached. He seems to be hoping the few short weeks have subsided and he can go back to status quo. With this, it seems there is no honor to such an agreement? Or is it that Icsunonove does not think that he was mentioned for a permanent topic ban and can just go about his business without regard? Rarelibra (talk) 08:14, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• "Showing my true colors?" There was never any topic ban, and I really don't know where you get this. Can you show me where this ban was made? If not I think you should take back those offensive comments you can't seem to keep to yourself. I personally think any sort of permanent topic ban is ridiculous, unless a user is truly malicious. On this topic, if there were to be any such bans, one would have at least a dozen Editors to censure. Icsunonove (talk) 19:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Since Rarelibra has been banned from editing this topic because of the edit-war between him and User:Icsunonove, it indeed raises questions. Either User:Icsunonove honours the agreement, or User:Rarelibra is free again to edit as he pleases. Gryffindor 09:04, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Link to prior discussion: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive320#User:Rarelibra

(copied from my talk page): Sorry guys, but as far as I can see, my proposed ban on both parties didn't at the time gain the consensus support it needed, and there certainly wasn't an "agreement" he subscribed to that he could be expected to "honour" now. I guess that's mostly due to Rarelibra's freaking out as he did, and his offence overshadowing those of Icsunonove in the perception of other admins. So, upshot is, Rarelibra's ban was a no-brainer, Icsunonove's not (unfortunately, I'd still say.) Right now, I see him editing more or less constructively, so there's nothing much to do. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

So basically I am honoring the agreement and Icsunonove isn't - because he can go around and throw all kinds of insult around (as was proven) and provocation, yet continue to do as he pleases - just so I am totally clear and understanding this. It would be more suitable to ensure that he does not edit on that topic again - especially when there were more users who noticed how callous and insulting he was - whether or not my own actions overshadowed. I owned up to my actions, he NEVER has. But that's fine - I'll walk the high road. I only ask that the moment he starts to insult and slander someone off-topic that he is quickly and thoroughly stopped. Rarelibra (talk) 13:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, and I really thought your apologies were sincere from a few weeks ago. Take the high road? Like you are doing on here? I really thought you were going to go and do your own thing, and I had plenty sympathy if you have issues at home/work. You say I'm callous and insulting, and yet you guys are not? If you indeed want to take the high road, why did you find it necessary at the time to make those insults of "Italo-Fascist" when I was not even active on Misplaced Pages? Thought you might get away with it? You completely instigated this, you used profanity, you made legal threats on Misplaced Pages, you sent that sick e-mail. I defended myself, and I've apologized more times on here than your lot combined. So, that last sentence you wrote, I think it would be very wise if that applied to you. I just find it incredibly thick-skinned that you can do what you've done on here, offer up an apology, and then continue to try and point the finger at someone else. Find some way to relax... Icsunonove (talk) 19:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Reviewing the thread Future Perfect linked to, I see no agreement and no community decision. I do think an RfC on Icsunonove might be a good idea; but it would be better if Rarelibra is not one of the certifying editors. Future Perfect, do you think that you and Septentrionalis/PMAnderson are both in a position to certify an RfC? GRBerry 14:43, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure (although I haven't got the time and energy to bring it forward myself). And, as I said, right now I can't see much need for immediate action. With his main opponent removed, Icsunonove seems to be currently editing a lot more constructively. Whether that is because he now has free reign for his POV-pushing, I can't say right now.

I'm also not sure whether RfC would really be of much help. We really don't need more talking about who did what and who thinks what of whom. If and when this needs action again, the only thing that will need talking about, in my opinion, is who will be banned, from what, and for how long. Be that at admin/community level or at Arbcom. No more "intermediate steps" in dispute resolution, it's been going on for long enough that this should go straight to sanctions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Fut.Perf., I really can't figure out what you have against me. "free reign for his POV-pushing"? You told me you are not involved in this topic, nor taking any side, but it seems you have some issue with me personally? Rarelibra is not some main opponent, and I don't even know why this stuff has to be stated in such a way... Icsunonove (talk) 20:33, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Before I get attacked on here yet again, lets do a little review here. I was on break from Misplaced Pages for quite awhile. I came back to see that Rarelibra and PhJ were slandering me to a new user, calling me an "Italo-Fascist". That's called instigation. I defended myself by pointing out that these guys have their own "history" on here, and are by no means neutral. This was returned to me through profanity and multiple threats of taking legal action. Rarelibra told the Admins he did not mean real legal action, but then sent me an e-mail through Misplaced Pages stating real legal action. I don't believe this was ever fully addressed. Then Rarelibra made an apology to both me and Septentrionalis/PMAnderson, stating that he had issues at home/work, and I left it at that. I'm easy to forgive and forget. Somehow he assumed that there was a topic ban, and I guess he was actually satisfied that he had taken one for the team to get at least me off of the discussions? Maybe that is why his apology was so forthcoming? I see no place that I've ever agreed not to work on the subject I care about; does he want to stop making maps?? Lastly, if there was ever to be a topic ban on this subject it could not be simply two editors. There have been many involved, including the Admin Gryffindor who arguably started a lot of these nasty debates back in 2005, and has been reprimanded many times by other Admins on his dubious actions. If you really want to start asking for RfCs I would suggest starting with Gryffindor on this topic and Rarelibra on the continued threats of legal action over e-mail (I still have the messages). They seem to have a need to go around Misplaced Pages stirring things up on multiple topics. I've worked a lot on these pages to come up with neutral solutions that have finally started getting the arguing to calm down and have pages that incorporate the multi-ethnic backgrounds of these places. What have these others done? All I get now is being made out as the bad guy by the German crowd? All along I've supported preserving both the Italian/German/Ladin language nature of these regions. Lastly, I do not understand why I keep getting accused of harassing Septentrionalis. I have no problem with Sep, it has been Rarelibra that has gone after him. Also, I don't know why out of the blue Future Perfect at Sunrise has laid his target on me. I have no problem with this Admin, except I do take issue with being singled out like this. regards, Icsunonove (talk) 18:56, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The difference is, I don't instigate or get in any trouble making maps. Nor do I offer up insults, personal attacks, or other such negative behavior. Just know that any such behavior will be swiftly reported in the future - and I'll be the 'nice guy' (I guess) in avoiding the topic... no matter how POV. Rarelibra (talk) 00:40, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that all sounds very nice, but you and PhJ were still the ones who found it necessary to go around calling me an "Italo-Fascist" when I wasn't even participating in the discussion. I guess you can sweep that fact under the rug, even though it is -- you know -- documented in the logs. Or did I misunderstand you, and you are actually saying that you don't instigate or make trouble when you make maps? Ok, I'll give you that one... :))) You can accuse me of being "POV" all you want, I've always attempted to be all inclusive and not biased to either point of view. That is nice that you'll be monitoring me; though I still think you should spend more time dealing with your own behavior and addressing those legal threats with the Admins. Anyway, lets see if this time you all can leave me the heck alone... Icsunonove (talk) 00:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

You fail to address your own actions. You come in acting like you are innocent. Your words of "I've always attempted to be all inclusive and not biased" smack of irony. You need to focus on your own actions. Just know that we'll make sure you stay respectful and professional - because it is easily proven across many talk pages of your own instigations and unprofessional slanders and personal attacks. Rarelibra (talk) 14:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Enough already... You came on here and accused me of something I simply did not do, which only shows that you continue to make this personal. It is just another waste of mine and others' time. You've also tried to avoid your own AIN with regards to legal threats, profanity, and racist remarks by turning around and pointing the finger at others. By the way, you began this page with "instigations and unprofessional slanders and personal attacks". So much for your, and I quote, "I offer up a full apology to Icsunonove - who I ask of this, let us share the olive branch, go our separate ways, and contribute to wiki with positive and constructive vibes."; now there is some real irony! You don't even seem to realize that you are back attacking me in less than two weeks, after offering that olive branch, and for me doing absolutely nothing. Are you able to make that connection?? Is that a nice thing to do? Take some time and try to figure that out. See ya around. Icsunonove (talk) 22:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Enough out of you! I came on here because I thought it was agreed upon - but yeah, Future Perfect proposed it. I guess you weren't going to abide by it either way. So technically, it would still be open for discussion amongst admins - that I am abiding by it in spirit is one thing, that you refuse is another. It just shows the true colors. I am not attacking you, either - what paranoia brings that on, well, who knows. I am merely pointing out that you, as I, should respect a permanent topic ban and edit elsewhere. By the way, I haven't avoided anything - I owned up to my actions. You haven't owned up to anything... and like you state, it is easily traceable in the history of many talk pages to see your unprofessional behavior and constant personal attacks - that was observed by several others besides myself. And it was commented on here on ANI. So you best reflect and remain professional yourself. Rarelibra (talk) 13:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Your apology to us was false, obviously only based on your desire for a topic ban. But get this straight: there is no topic ban; there never was. I'm not wasting anymore time on you. Your anger/home/work issues, good luck with them, seriously. ciao. Icsunonove (talk) 22:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Careful - you are borderline attacking me. There was a proposal for a topic ban - that we could easily ask admins for further review. It's funny how you like to put words in people's mouths or statements of gradieur. Good luck with life - you are going to definitely need all you can get. Rarelibra (talk) 04:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Executive summary

There was no topic ban.

Icsunonove has violated no agreement.

End of story.

—Ian Spackman (talk) 20:43, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Anyone dispute Ian's executive summary? If not, I will simply close this thread with the comment that dispute resolution is right here.--Isotope23 14:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• Amen; resolving disputes is great. Icsunonove (talk) 22:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

If capable. Rarelibra (talk) 13:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of User:Etheltrust.

To my understanding, userpages still fall under speedy criteria due to the fact that they are still classified as a main space, per here and here. I have marked this page for deletion multiple times and it has been denied, would like over all opinion.

Also take a look at this convo i had with an admin. Tiptoety (talk) 01:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I was the second admin to decline to delete. The main part of my reply to Tiptoety about this was: "Hi there - I've no problem with deleting userpage spam under G11, or userpage attack pages under G10, but if someone wants to have a bluelink for their username and is happy with just having "la" on it to prevent it being a redlink or as a test edit, I don't see the problem personally. If there's a real problem, why not ask the user to add something in line with WP:USER rather than go for the speedy button? Technically, you may well be right, but frankly WP:BITE applies too. This editor got whipped with a speedy delete warning the very same minute that the account was created!"

Comments welcome about whether I'm misapplying the criteria but, to me, trying to delete one brand-new editor's user page three times is, well, perhaps over-enthusiastic. Bencherlite 02:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with the above, but I would like to add that the user page seems to have nothing that would constitute as a page worth of deletion. It is not like the user pressed every key and then cussed on the page. The user simply added "le" I see no problem with that. Rgoodermote  02:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe WP:CSD should be revised so userpages are exempt from G1 and G2. ~Sasha Callahan _(Talk) 02:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I declined as well, and removed the warning templates; I've been known to tag or delete attack pages or spam, but "la" doesn't make me want to delete. There are pages like this all over userspace, and it hurts nothing. Acroterion _(talk) 02:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It does seem to fall under the speedy criteria, but the possible harm of scaring away a new editor vastly outweighs the benefit of saving 2 bytes of space on the Wiki servers. --Bongwarrior (talk) 02:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Now that is rash, no simply put it is two letters. If it is a problem instead of speedy delete suggest to the user that they need to make it more than just two letters. But again it is not like every key was pressed and they typed random racial slurs. Rgoodermote  02:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Thank you for your comments, i guess i have just read the policy and was tagging it deletion because it did not meet it. I second the idea of re-writing the CSD policy. I did not mean to violate WP:BITE, and try very hard to welcome users, which i have proven i do quite often. You are right that the deletion warnings on the users talk page were a bit much, and if i could get WP:TW to stop doing that i would. Tiptoety (talk) 02:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

We don't need more rules. A user-page is an individual's for however they feel like using it — so long as it helps them collaborate. If they think that adding "la" to their page helps them collaborate in whatever way then we should be okay with it if it doesn't have any demonstrable harm, even if we don't understand it persay. --Haemo (talk) 02:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I have my doubts that a re-write would be affective, but I will third it if a reasonable re-write can be decided. Good Night Rgoodermote  02:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• How about these:
  • G1-Patent nonsense and gibberish, an unsalvageably incoherent page with no meaningful content. This does not include: poor writing, partisan screeds, obscene remarks, vandalism, fictional material, material not in English, badly translated material, implausible theories, or hoaxes of any sort; some of these, however, may be deleted as vandalism in blatant cases. Pages in userspace are exempt from the criterion.
  • G2-Test pages (e.g., "Can I really create a page here?"). Pages in userspace are exempt from this criterion.
    • Just remember, userpages can still be deleted via PROD or MFD if needed. ~Sasha Callahan _(Talk) 02:37, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

A user planning to take any action should ask himself or herself whether, apart from technically complying with policy, there is any purpose to that action? Tiptoety, what did you think that seeking to have this page deleted would actually accomplish? Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

As i stated above, i do not think it would accomplish anything, yet it violated policy so i tagged it. And that was that, after re-thinking maybe i could have just ignored all rules. I am all up for fixing up the CSD. Tiptoety (talk) 02:42, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I would never put a speedy delete tag on a user page for something like that, especially not soon after creation. Not all of us is handy with a keyboard. The user may have been thinking up something to write when the speedy delete tag went on. I know from personal experience how confusing and alienating that can be-- the first article I tried to create was speedied because I had saved an empty page. My next edit would have created a stub, but the speedy delete tag scared me off. , Dlohcierekim 03:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

The criteria for speedy deletion do not, and were never meant to, require that any matching pages be speedily deleted if doing so would otherwise be counterproductive. Since WP:CSD did not actually clearly state that anywhere on the page, I've added a paragraph about it to the intro, for the benefit of any other newcomers who might otherwise end up similarly mistaken. (Feel free to improve the wording.) I've also added a specific exemption to CSD G2 for test pages created in users' own user space. I think that ought to be sufficient to address this issue. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 16:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

You dont think that should first be discussed on the CSD talk page first (though i do like the addition)? Also it still contradicts the sentence where it says that CSD applies to all mainspace areas (which includes userpages). Tiptoety (talk) 00:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

CSD Policy Change

You dont think that should first be discussed on the CSD talk page first (though i do like the addition)? Also it still contradicts the sentence where it says that CSD applies to all mainspace areas (which includes userpages). Tiptoety (talk) 19:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policies are primarily descriptive rather than prescriptive, and I do sincerely believe that the edits I made reflect existing Misplaced Pages policy as currently enforced in practice. Certainly I have not seen anything, based on my participation in past discussions on the CSD talk page and other related forums, as well as my reading of other policies (such as Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy and Misplaced Pages:User page) and observation of past and current practical policy enforcement, that would lead me to believe that the interpretations of policy which I've sought to state explicitly with these edits would not enjoy broad community consensus. If you (or anyone else) believe this not to be the case, you're welcome to revert them and to seek wider community input on suitable forum — such as here, on the talk page and/or at the village pump — in order to determine consensus. (The latter is not absolutely required, as indeed few things on Misplaced Pages are, but it would be the polite thing to do when one is aware of the existence of a potential disagreement.)

In any case, I don't see any actual contradiction with the sentence you mention. The part about the general criteria applying in all namespaces simply means that, unlike the rest of the criteria, they are not restricted to any particular namespace but apply, as the name says, in general. Even if one were to interpret that sentence in the prescriptive sense you seem to be reading into it, that would simply mean that the general criteria, in their entirety, including G2, and including the exception to it, apply in all namespaces — G2 simply happening, thus, to have no effect in user space (as it has never actually been enforced there anyway). Anyway, you might want to note that a similar "contradiction" is already found in criterion G4 and, most blatantly, in G8. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 00:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Well said, and i completely agree, just wanted to make sure the community did as well. I think we have beat this topic into the ground, and thus i will mark it as resolved. If someone does wish to argue the changes made to the CSD policy, you can do so on the appropriate talk page. Tiptoety (talk) 06:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:G-Dett's civility issues

Could someone please look at this edit summary -which is just the latest in User:G-Dett's routine behaviour, and remind her that WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL is in fact WP policy. Thanks. <<-armon->> (talk) 04:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:NOFEEDING, WP:SPADE, and WP:NOSPADE are the relevant guidelines, but consider me reminded.--G-Dett (talk) 00:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, WP:CIVIL will be sufficient. If you want to add more, start with WP:KETTLE. <<-armon->> (talk) 02:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Calling a point made by another editor "deceptive, insulting and stupid" seems pretty uncivil to me. Perhaps if G-Dett had left out the "stupid" part it might be different, but she didn't. 6SJ7 (talk) 10:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, 6, for your princely moderation.--G-Dett (talk) 00:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe that anyone could defend G-Dett's behavior in any situation, let alone in a routine content dispute when the other editor did nothing particularly unusual.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 12:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Moshe! As someone who's sat meekly at your feet and learned about cheetahs, and in an effort to learn more regarding same even posed some precocious questions of my own, I am hurt and offended.--G-Dett (talk) 00:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Note Phral Phrallington has since been indefinitely blocked as a sockpuppet. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 12:22, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Wrong section I think.--G-Dett (talk) 00:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• "you are lying;... direct result of your dishonesty." - G-Dett, 16:32, 29 November 2007.

i suggest G-Dett apologizes and agrees to be more civil in the future. Jaakobou 16:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey Jaakobou, the words you quote were up for a grand total of 12 minutes before I took them down. Glad to see you're such a fan/archival completist of my work.--G-Dett (talk) 22:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Unbelievable. Don't people have anything better to do than judge the merits of other editors humor/sarcasm? (No offense G-Dett. I find you highly entertaining myself, but really.) Tiamut 00:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Guys, I think you're making this too big a deal, honestly. Maybe a simple note on her talk page saying, "Would you mind refactoring," would suffice (and it seems would be moot, in any case). There is so much really harsh stuff that gets thrown around on a daily basis that's way worse than the above... there may come a time when the WP culture as a whole gets a lot tougher on anything that smacks of incivility, but we're a long way from that now. Also, if G-Dett really wants to be uncivil, I'm expecting/hoping for something much funnier... <<scratches head and wonders if it will be at own expense>> IronDuke 01:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't expect a big deal to be made of this and I could care less if she apologizes. I'd just like her to stop the routine incivility and personal attacks. WP is not supposed to be a battleground, and it appears that she needs someone outside the conflicts she's engaged in to point out that there are in fact, behavioral standards here, and why that's so. <<-armon->> (talk) 02:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright, alright, I'm sorry. For now. To Tewfik, I dedicate a larded roast of his favorite mammal. Peace!--G-Dett (talk) 04:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Aron Tendler

Lobojo (talk · contribs) is readding content to this article that I feel is clearly in violation of WP:BLP. The content concerns rumors of sexual misconduct by a Rabbi who has not been charged with any crime. The reporting of rumors has no place o Misplaced Pages, in my opinion, and I would ask an impartial admin to review. I would note that two other admins have been involved, one of whom reverted to the rumorless version, and the other to the version including the rumors. However, the latter admin did not respond after discussions on the talk page and let the version without the disputed content stand. This is not a content dispute, as i see it, but a policy dispute. Jeffpw (talk) 14:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• I also do not care for being called an "lazy academic infant". This user seems to have something to learn about WP:NPA. That's just one of several diffs directed at me. I also don't think it's kind to our project to be told that Misplaced Pages is "worse than tabloid journalism", as a rationale for adding rumors to a BLP, and referring to Misplaced Pages's owner as "Jimbo Christ" because of his position on BLP. Jeffpw (talk) 15:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

This individual is apparently a brother of Mordecai Tendler, whose article was recently AFDed. The AFD, history, and talk page of the brother's article are relevant context for understanding inter-user disputes here. GRBerry 16:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I see the Mordecai Tendler article was Kept at the AFD.DGG (talk) 17:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Err, the article in question is Aron Tendler, not his brother. The only things relating them are the fact that they are brothers, the articles were created by the same editor, and both contain rumors which have not been substantiated. What separates the two is Rabbi Mordecai Tendler denied the rumors (apparently, anyway--there are no inline cites in the text), while Rabbi Aron Tendler has not commented on the rumors. The fact that the Rabbi did not comment makes the rumors unfit for his biography, in my opinion. Jeffpw (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Aron has not been charged or sued in either a U.S. or Rabbinical court, but his brother has. Allegations against Mordecai, although also unproven, were investigated by the Rabbinical Council of America. In comparison, claims against Aron are sourced by reliable sources to internet forum rumors. Deletion was correct. Cool Hand Luke 10:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

are you saying they are more likely to be verifiable if they are denied?DGG (talk) 19:52, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I am saying that the fact that the subject has spoken directly about them makes it allowable in the encyclopedia. The fact that the subject of this article has not commented makes it even more so just rumor and speculation, and thus a violation of WP:BLP. There is precedent for this position: Just look at the discussions on the talk page of the Clay Aiken. Though media sources speculated about his sexuality, that didn't make it into the article, because he didn't directly confirm or deny it, Only the quotes he himself made were put in the article, per BLP. That same principle should be applied here. It frankly amazes me that there is even a debate bout whether this material shoudl be excised. It is against policy, pure and simple. Jeffpw (talk) 20:03, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

BTW, neither Aron nor Mordecai Tendler have been charged with any crimes. They were forced to quit their posts by colleagues and congregants who require a high and irreproachable standard. It is certainly not the job of Misplaced Pages to act as a (kangaroo) court of law nor is Misplaced Pages a sex offender registry of any kind. Until such time that a charge is brought, or an allegation is proven in a formal court of law, then any aspersions cast against anyone is a violation of WP:LIBEL and I would not be surprised if the offended parties would get angry enough to sue, but evidently some editors and admins do not realize this, so they allow yellow journalism and muckraking to exist and pretend that it's a legitimate "biography" when it is not. Reports in newspapers are not much more than hearsay when it comes to such legal situations, so everyone concerned needs to be very cautious before creating more of these articles which are nothing more than ticking time bombs waiting to go off. IZAK (talk) 11:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It is appalling that I should be attacked in this way openly, but behind my back so to speak. I was not informed of this discussion by the one who initiated it, as I should have been. Lobojo (talk) 15:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anyone attacking you here, Lobojo. I see instead a discussion of the BLP policy and whether the article violates this policy. Please don't take things personally. I would also ask that an administrator explain to Lobojo what our civility and NPA policies mean. After attacking me here, and being warned here for the second time to stop contacting me on this issue, and rather discuss on the article pages, he has persisted on leaving annoying messages on my talk page. I'd like it to stop. Jeffpw (talk) 15:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You should have notified me, as you well know you are trying to create a sense of great tension around this issue. You have needlessly escalated this issue all over wikipedia for no good reason and you are making edit summaries to make it seem like I am being uncivil, when I am behaving quite properly. You should have notified me of this discussion, you did not do so, I'll turn the other cheek, since this is all no use anyway. Lobojo (talk) 15:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

And as for the "warning" you cite above, they are just you warning me! You are simply using the old tactic of spattering around warnings to intimidate to try to provoke opponents by patronising them. The second warning was one that you just made ((!!!)) just now in responce to my complaint that you failed to inform me of this discussion! I mean really, please stop this drama! Lobojo (talk) 15:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I just feel that I you are trying to bully me into submission. I am not ashamed of my complaint on your talk page? Where else was I supposed to go to express my dismay at not being infomred of this discussion about me? Here it is since you erased it from your talk page. Lobojo (talk) 15:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There's no reason to be discussing this article on ANI. An RfC is the appropriate next step. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Will, there was, since there was a policy violation. That nobody on this board cared to look at it is immaterial. In any event, the problem is resolved, as the article has been deleted and the AFD courtesy blanked out of consideration for the subject. Once again, why this was allowed to stand for as long as it was is beyond me. Jeffpw (talk) 11:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Problems finishing a discussion

Can someone politely tell JzG and the other admins to let me please, pretty please finish my conversation with Haemo on my talk page? I got a sneaky (no warning, nor even a notice) 7 day block for 3RR, which was then made into a 1 month block for just using a "mocking" tone, which oddly became an indefinite block, again without discussion, nor warning, nor even a notice on my Talk page. Now bear in mind that even my worst detractors can't point to any "sins" by me apart from very vague accusations regarding my attitude -- which was the topic being discussed. Try to think of any other editor who got indefinitely blocked and has drawn such hostile comments without doing anything bad-bad -- no vandalism, no sockpuppets, no obscenities, no direct insults, nor any such nonsense -- just edits that have been accurate and consistently supported by refs and discussion on the appropriate Talk pages, with the only fault -- maybe, perhaps -- of not showing enough diplomacy at times. If you follow the discussion I started regarding my getting unblocked, you will see that it gets interrupted twice right in middle of my chatting with Haemo, first by MaxSem and then by JzG. Despite somewhat disengenuous claims to the contrary, there was no "soapboxing, etc," -- just go check.

I hope I'm not asking for too much -- I basically just want to be allowed to finish discussing my case for removing the indefinite block. I think December 1st would be a reasonable deadline -- it's just a couple of days off. And it is just my Talk page. Some of you might know that there could possibly be underlying off-wiki reasons for some of the things going on, but I promise to avoid bringing those up in this discussion -- I'll just stick to Misplaced Pages only topics. Thanks in advance for your consideration. (By the way, I'm not using any real "tricks" to post here -- my block is just kind of weird). -BC aka Callmebc 17:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

So you're bypassing your block to request it reconsideration? I have to say that this is not very likely to help your case. If you wish to appeal your case, you can do so on your talk page or contact an administrator by e-mail to make a posting here, but you should not do it yourself. TSO1D (talk) 17:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

His user talk page has been protected by JzG with the comment 'Changed protection level for "User talk:Callmebc": Incessant trolling, no realistic chance of an unblock. ', so that avenue is blocked. I agree that he could have e-mailed an admin. I think we should be very cautious in protecting the talk pages of blocked users. Bovlb (talk) 18:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Can someone point out the reason he was originally blocked?—Random832 19:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Which time? He's been blocked ten times. See Corvus cornix_talk 19:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Umm, information without context is no information at all. Editing the Killian wikis is a tough, thankless endeavor. -BC aka Callmebc 03:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• Callmebc was blocked for violations of WP:BLP following multiple complaints to OTRS over an extended period of time. The talk page was locked several times due to soapboxing and continuation of the same problem. Guy (Help!) 22:11, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

• Guy is omitting one or two minor details: the "OTRS" business involves...hmmm, how can I put this diplomatically enough....a little, some might say politically driven, "story" that doesn't seem to quite meet standards for WP:VERIFY and WP:PROVEIT (for starters) that a reference was added to back in September. There was, shall we say, a long, LONG "discussion" about how best to deal with said story by me and others that went on for a couple of months. While I was blocked from editing even my page, it was somehow decided that the discussion actually involved my casually maligning "people," so a whole bunch of redactions like this were made to both my page and the Killian wikis. And I don't quite get this "soapboxing" thing -- it seems whenever I try to defend my actions or explain anything, regardless of detail and circumstance, I get vaguely accused of "soapboxing" without any specifics given. It's like: Defending one's actions == Soapboxing. And it's a bit difficult to get a handle on there being a "continuation of the same problem" since nobody seems willing to talk specifics (or respond on point in general.) -BC aka Callmebc 03:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That may be so, but I was watching the discussion and almost reverted your blanking and protection of the talk page as soon as I saw it. If Callmebc addresses the concerns, the block becomes putative rather than preventative. Haemo was giving Callmcbc a chance to change, a chance I believe he deserves, and you cut off their discussion without warning. Not the best move I've seen made. When the page was blanked and protected, Callmebc was not trolling or being disruptive. He was discussing the potential for being unblocked. - auburnpilot talk 01:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. You and I have had our differences, so I really do appreciate that comment. I was indeed discussing some options. I had already agreed to keep content disputes off the main article and try other means like RFC's to deal with what I would consider to be false info. And even if all the Misplaced Pages options to resolve it fail, I'll just suck it up and leave it alone instead of creating another revert war. As an admin basically told me in an email, if the consensus is that 2+2=5, then so be it, and if I find that frustrating, I probably shouldn't edit Misplaced Pages -- it's just a collaborative website. I don't know if this is a generally believed wiki-philosophy, but the discussion I was having on my Talk page was just getting into the nature of my attitude, especially in regards to other editors. One thing I did for a little while on Global Warming, which has chronic edit/revert disputes, was try to get discussions going on the Talk page rather than in back and forth edit summaries. I think I can make that my more usual approach for dealing with content issues. Bear in mind that I really have strong feelings about how Misplaced Pages, like any reference, should emphasize accuracy above all else. But I'm also well aware that a community atmosphere and a sense of collaboration is very important to regular wikifolk, many if not most of whom spend an enormous amount of time dealing with vandals and doing many small bits of copyedit-type work. These two aspects of Misplaced Pages are not completely incompatible, I suppose, if I can avoid stomping on people's toes in my usually impatient rush to get things done and over with.

So there are some things, I do believe, that are worth finishing up in discussion, if I am allowed to do so.... -BC aka Callmebc 03:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That all sounds very reasonable to me (I'm unfamiliar with the background). Can't he be allowed to prove if he's a man of his word? Give him enough rope and all that?Alice.S 04:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The background, in a nutshell, is that the articles involving the Killian documents are sort of like the haunted houses of Misplaced Pages, with long, strange histories and seemingly derelict -- until you try to bring out the mop & bucket (never mind the hammer & nails), when things then tend to become more like the House on Haunted Hill. (Which I suppose fits in well with giving me "enough rope," eh?) -BC aka Callmebc 13:05, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• I've been talking to Callmebc by email, and we'll see what happens. We're just talking at the moment. --Haemo (talk) 01:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

COI editing on Transcendental Meditation and Maharishi Mahesh Yogi

The main editors to these pages are admitted employees/devotees of Maharishi, who is the originator and marketer of Transcendental Meditation. Recently, two RfCs have been lodged requesting additional non-TM editors evaluate the pages for NPOV and COI concerns. The TM editors are closely allied in their edits, and are most vocal in refusing any large changes to the article (some edit-warring on this took place yesterday - so TM is now protected). They also are insistent that their conflicts-of-interest should not dis-qualify them from being the main editors to the page, and seem to mis-understand consensus and neutral-point-of-view. One editor in particular, User:TimidGuy, has said that anyone who thinks he shouldn't edit the page should lodge a complaint with ArbCom. ArbCom shouldn't really be bothered by this, but the talk page posts approach flaming levels, so could someone please take a look at these editors and decide what is indicated?

The relevant accounts are User:TimidGuy, User:Littleolive oil, and User:Spairag, although the last hasn't been very active recently. Based on their edit histories, I would put all three right on the edge of being single-purpose accounts Michaelbusch (talk) 19:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I know nothing about this topic but I did take a quick look at this. There's more to the story. There's an obvious edit war going on or User:Ryan Postlethwaite would not have just fully page protected it two days ago. It's also obvious that editors on the other side of the coin are User:Naturezak and User:Dseer, who just got a civility warning from Jossi, which Dseer deleted as "spam", see . I don't know what's going on here, but I do know a more thorough investigation is warranted. For now, I say keep the full page protection, have the editors peaceably settle it on the talk page-hopefully, and neutral admins and editors take a deeper look. — Rlevse • Talk • 03:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that peaceful settlement is unlikely - the COI editing is a long running problem going back at least a year. Michaelbusch (talk) 19:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There is considerable dis-content with the current article, outside of the TM editing block - that much may be stated with certainty. Dseer apparently has a great dislike of Jossi (see my talk page), which perhaps explains that particular problem. My reading of the situation is that the fire of the current objections will eventually die down, but unless some remedy is applied, the COI editing will continue indefinitely. I have several times asked the TM editors to stand down from the articles and allow comprehensive rewrites, but they refuse - and do not seem to appreciate the nature of the problem. Michaelbusch (talk) 06:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This issue been before mediation and also COI twice already in the last year and a subject of repeated edit warring with no resolution or enforcement for NPOV, article ownership or compliance with COI Noticeboard determination that TMers have COI. Any issues with my edit should not derail the train. It is not cool heads that are required anymore, it is someone to take control and if need be enforce all policies evenly, or if you can't do this, it needs to go to Arbcom. Jossi has strong opinions on NRM/Cults and supporters and critics, and selectively enforced his opinion on civility without also acknowledging the context, and that the Civility policy itself says that NPOV comes first, then civility. I have asked Jossi to seriously consider defering to Admins who have no interest either way in cults (he considers that trolling), and I'd prefer one who can recognize fringe claims, POV, COI. article ownership and information suppression for what it is, civil or not. --Dseer (talk) 07:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring abrew

As I mentioned obliquely earlier, it looks like two editors -- mathewignash (talk · contribs) and The Matrix Prime (talk · contribs) -- are in a spat over a category name. It hasn't gotten to the 3RR level yet. Additionally, in my experience, neither one is big on talk-page discussions and both have a history when it comes to assuming good faith. This time, it's over Category:Primes and Category:Primes/Primals. Ultimately, my own thought is that the contentious nature stems from the entries' inclusion in one/the other is WP:OR; it comes down to "I think this" or "I think that" or "it's sooooo obvious this or that is true." More immediately, though, they've gone back and forth blanking one category then another and re-categorizing related articles. Take a look at the categories' respective edit histories to get a sense of it, although note that Category:Primes/Primals was earlier CSDed as being an empty cat. (per one editor or another's transition to Category:Primes.

• Revision history of Category:Primes

• Revision history of Category:Primes/Primals

Anyway. Toodles. --EEMIV (talk) 00:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

This is an odd creature: a category that looks like an article that also happens to improperly display a fair-use image. Regardless, it falls far short of the WP:FICT guideline, so I went ahead and left a note on the user's talk page. If mathewignash and The Matrix Prime cannot resolve their differences (and manage to avoid 3RR violations), you might consider directing them to WP:DR. --Kralizec! (talk) 21:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• It should also be noted that mathewignash (talk · contribs) averted an indefinite block by promising not to upload any fair-use images and/or make any edits to image space articles. As is transparent from his talk page this hasn't happened. --WebHamster 21:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

When was the promise made not to upload fair-use images? The current fair-use warnings on his talk page are for images uploaded in October 2006, April 2007, and September 2007. --Kralizec! (talk) 21:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It's all there on the talk page. Promise made: 28 October 2007, Deleted disputed fair-use images: 22 between promise and 26 November 2007. There are also more disputed fair-use warnings that haven't been deleted. And there are 3 no fair-use warnings 26/27 November 2007. --WebHamster 22:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, the admin who unblocked based on the promise was Steel (talk · contribs)--WebHamster 22:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I was not more clear. All the fair-use warnings I reviewed were for images that were uploaded back in April or September this year, or October 2006. None of these warnings appear to be for images uploaded after September 2007. --Kralizec! (talk) 22:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, I did a spot-check of ten recently uploaded images, and all were tagged {{GFDL-self-no-disclaimers}}. Are you sure you are not confusing the date the fair-use warning was issued with the date that the image in question was uploaded? It often takes BetacommandBot weeks (months?) to catch up and check all the uploaded images. --Kralizec! (talk) 23:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Troll gone wild!

WTF is this..? Have a look at these contribs! Ira01 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Is this aceptable?--Hu12 (talk) 03:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't tell from here because I'm uninvolved, but informing all interested parties of a MedCab case is acceptable. If they're requesting those users from a specific side of the dispute or uninvolved parties, then it becomes a question of canvassing. -Jéské 04:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Uh, first edit being to a mediation? In fact, ALL edits being to a mediation? Sounds like an SPA to me. I'm not going to block, but someone else should. His very first edit was to start a MedCab case against Hu12, and nearly all of his edits are canvasing, editwars, etc.⇒SWATJester 04:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

According to Ira01, he signed up with a user identity because he could not go into mediation without one. That is why his first contributions under that identity all have to do with mediation.Gothere (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. Dlohcierekim 04:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I would block if I was an admin. I would suggest just blocking anyway, Jester, as the issue is already before the community, and if anyone really disagrees. This has WP:DUCK written all over it. The Evil Spartan (talk) 05:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Rylong blocked him. Seems fine to me. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Ira01 is requesting a review of their block. The block appears fine to me as well, but I am not familiar enough with all of the details of this case to handle the request. — Satori Son 21:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not requesting an unblock for Ira01 right now since it is both temporary and I think a cooling off & educational time period should be helpful. Ira01 is not trying to be a troll. He really is a clueless newb. If anyone else would like to assist in educating him about wikipedia & a handful of other potential contributors about the philosophy, culture & processes surrounding Misplaced Pages please join in the conversation here: http://prospers.org/forum/index.php?topic=4139.0

Although Ira01 did screw some things up. I really do think it is from lack of education. This quick block process has not left him any wiser. I post in that forum as 'onthefence'. Please feel free to contact me if you have any questions or concerns. Thanks. Gothere (talk) 23:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

While I am sure your jesture is well ment, its quite unclear why wikipedia would need prospers.org to provide a platform for anything related to wikipedia policy and behavioral guidline?--Hu12 (talk) 00:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree (if it matters). But then where to have the discourse Gothere suggests? NewHorizon (talk) 00:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The reason why I suggested it is because with Misplaced Pages discussion format is a little difficult for new people to utilize. Ira01 is clearly confused. I was looking for a little bit of expert help in clarifying matters, but if you are not interested, I don't blame you for not wanting to get tied up in another forum. In the mean time, I will see if I can convince Ira01 to sign up for the "adopt me" program. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gothere (talk • contribs) 01:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)Gothere (talk) 01:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Want point out that there are serious conflicts of interest in all the editing that has occured.→ lendingstats.com. It appears all the disruptive editing was a result of Prosper lenders, reverting in order to use Misplaced Pages for promotion. clearly Violates WP:NOT!--Hu12 (talk) 01:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

"It appears... in order to use Misplaced Pages for promotion." Want to point out that your presumptive characterization of this segment of the Prosper community, of their motive(s), and of the neutrality of the lendingstats.com site is an ad hominem attack, entirely unfounded, totally incorrect, and generally runs counter to the theme of the "good faith" otherwise prevalent among WP admins. "Everyone was new once, and most of us made mistakes. That's why we welcome newcomers and are patient with them, and assume that most people who work on the project are trying to help it, not hurt it. ... Before a block is imposed, efforts should be made to educate the user about our policies and guidelines, and to warn them when their behaviour conflicts with our policies and guidelines." NewHorizon (talk) 02:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Testing the Limits of Username Appropriateness

Bonerific (talk · contribs) was blocked for their username and attempted to make a case about working in a meat plant as a deboner of animals or some such possible trolling. Soon after their unblock appeal was rejected, Cocktastic (talk · contribs) showed up on the scene, preemptively claiming to be a farmer of gamecocks, etc. Essentially a similar telling of the story with slightly different parameters. So... is it safe to assume that this is likely continued trolling by the same person, or should there be a WP:RFCU? Or should I assume that the story about this editor's occupation is true? I'm shaking my head and rolling my eyes here, so maybe this is an obvious block of some sort. Ideas? --Kinu /_c 05:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Pretty obviously the same person. I asked Cocktastic if he knows Bonerific. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 05:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

(EC)The story seems unlikely at best, but a block for their name is appropropriate anyway, because even if it is inoffensive to them, other people aren't going to see it that way. A checkuser would be a good idea, just to clarify things--Jac16888 (talk) 05:36, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... The Evil Spartan (talk) 05:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Not duck but dick, I think. Such sensitivity! If it's named like a dick, who cares? If on the other hand it behaves like a dick, then take the appropriate measures (even if its name would satisfy "Focus on the Family"). -- Hoary (talk) 05:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds about right. And it wouldn't surprise me if the recently created Bonerfide Editor (talk · contribs) was somehow related to this too. --Kinu /_c 05:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Stop listening to sob stories. If it's likely to offend, it's offensive. User:TheCockGobbler does not get a free pass because they used to eat male chickens. --Haemo (talk) 05:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Who, me? I've heard no sob stories. I didn't even notice what "Bonerific" might be about till I read on and was primed by "Cocktastic" in the same context. And "Cocktastic", which I did immediately understand, didn't offend me in the slightest. I suggest (i) that people have more important things to do here (let alone elsewhere) than zap UIDs that somebody somewhere might find offensive, and (ii) that anyone offended by "Cocktastic" (let alone "Bonerific") thereby demonstrates a very odd combination of readiness to see dicks and sensitivity to colloquialisms about dicks. -- Hoary (talk) 06:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

These accounts are being created just to be annoying and disruptive as evident by a recent post here by one of the various users. They are here to be disruptive. No one named "Bonerific" or "Cocktastic" is going to be a serious editor.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 06:11, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That I can believe. I'll buy "Username suggests that he'll behave like a dick". Still, why not wait for him to behave like a dick? As it is, people banning his usernames are wasting more of their time than his (assuming he has a thesaurus at hand), as they can never be sure which UID he'll think of next. -- Hoary (talk) 06:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I had no idea this would generate such discussion. Alas, here you go: behaving like his namesake. Very mature. WP:RBI. --Kinu /_c 07:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not a stretch for someone to see the term "cock" or "boner" as offensive. --Haemo (talk) 06:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't? But the person would have to parse "bonertastic" (or whatever it was) as "boner"+"tastic", and then read "boner" as "erect penis". Let's see ... my mother wouldn't have known the word "boner", and if she had she'd have merely shaken her head at this person's puerile choice of name. So who's offended here? (Shall I phone my wife and ask her if she's offended?) Yes, all in all I'm in favor of his use of a stupid UID: it's a convenient sign that he's a fool. Have him call himself something innocuous, and his edits then wouldn't ring alarm bells when they appear in edit histories. -- Hoary (talk) 06:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

How else do you parse it? It's how I parse it, and while I don't get offended easily, I definitely don't feel that people running around with usernames about their erect penises is an attractive environment to contribute in, and could definitely see how someone (indeed, people I know) would be offended. --Haemo (talk) 06:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't parse it as I read it, just as I don't parse most people's usernames. (Incidentally, I take yours to mean "blood", which has a lot of unpleasant associations for me, but about which I don't complain.) Ah, I now see it was "Bonerific". I suppose "rific" looked reminiscent of "terrific"; I didn't think of "bone" as it has so many meanings -- unless of course you're primed by "cocktastic" or whatever (or, to phrase it unkindly, are obsessed with dicks). ¶ It's not hard for me to come up with usernames that I think would be offensive to most people (including myself). (I could for example use "lynch" and "nigger" in close combination.) I wouldn't defend such usernames. Meanwhile, the fact (in Wales's view a glorious fact, in mine a dismal one) is that any damn fool can edit Misplaced Pages unless he's persistently and blatantly stupid. Yes I'll agree: "Cocktastic" is the UID of a fool. Again: better that he consistently calls himself "Cocktastic" than that he pops up every day with yet another among the millions of potential ways of praising his own dick, or, worse, edits stupidly under an innocuous and thus inconspicuous UID. (In my unjimbolike opinion, much better still if everyone had to apply via email for permission to edit WP, whereupon fools like this would be around for a maximum of one day per month -- but that's not going to happen.) -- Hoary (talk) 06:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

No offence intended but I love the irony of this thread about a phallus related username being marked resolved by an admin whose name parses as "Are You Long?" :) --WebHamster 10:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

LOL. Dlohcierekim 14:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

My name is parsed in two different languages and not pronounced that way. "Ryu" and "Long" are each one syllable. I'm also too lazy to come up with a more creative name.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Recurrent IP editing on Missouri road articles

An anonymous editor (most recently 12.74.143.212, others presumably within the same IP range) has repeatedly made edits to the articles on Interstates in Missouri (see history of I-70 in Missouri for an example), generally editing against the Manual of Style and the exit list style guide by changing directions in the articles' exit list to all caps. The IP also usually signs the end of the article. Numerous attempts to reach the IP editor through talk pages and inline HTML comments, like on Missouri Route 370, have failed. This led to the interstate articles being semi-protected, but the editor has branched out to unprotected state route articles and even non-road articles . Calling it 'vandalism' doesn't seem quite right, but at this point it seems that they're willfully editing against policy - would like others' opinions on what should be done. —Scott5114↗ 06:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's a list of some of the IP addresses involved. --TMF 06:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Anybody? --Rschen7754 (T C) 06:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Violation of WP:NPA

User Chanakyathegreat has violated WP:NPA. See this . He commented about me 'Ota crap is a fanatic Christian fundamentalist. More religious than the pope. His version is to spread Christian propaganda. He has started multiple articles with links to fundamentalist Christian websites. He need to be banned and all the edits by him reverted'.

User Nikkul had violated WP:NPA. He commented 'This user's intentions are obvious'. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That latter would not be a violation of WP:NPA, but possibly of WP:CIVIL. Corvus cornix_talk 18:37, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

No, wait, I take it back, I missed the misnaming of your Username. Sorry. Corvus cornix_talk 18:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Baffling creation of subpages

• (cur) (last) 15:03, 29 November 2007 Thundermaster367 (Talk | contribs | block) (14 bytes) (←Created page with '{{db-userreq}}')

This user has done like half a dozen of these already, what's going on? What should I do (other than keep deleting them)?—Random832 15:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Thundermaster367 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
you mean this user..--Hu12 (talk) 15:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The user in question has made almost 1000 edits, more than two-thirds of them this month. Thirty percent of those edits have been to the user's own userspace. About a third have been mainspace edits. Less than half of the edits have summaries. To be frank, although there may have been some useful edits from this user, I have to point out the Signal:Noise ratio. Now, this creating pages with ?{{db-userreq}} appears to be trolling, no? — Dave (Talk | contribs) 15:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Non admin Has he been doing it since you commented on his talk page? Maybe he was just testing, and didn't realise that there were people involved in the deletion (that have better things to do), and it is not an automated process. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 20:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I posted here after three appeared subsequent to that post, but on looking over things, it looks like that was due to delay in things showing up in the category.—Random832 14:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible Circumvention of a block by User:The King of Clay

User:The King of Clay was recently blocked on 23 November, 2007 for one week. Today, a new account was created called User:The King of Clay V2.0. I suspect this is the same person attempting to circumvent the block, as also today, an attenpt was made to add User:The King of Clay as a new participant to The Cheshire WikiProject, although it was User:The King of Clay V2.0 who added it. I think this is an attempt to circumvent the block. Could someone look into it?

I also wonder what should be done about the added name to the Cheshire WikiProject. My initial thoughts are that, regardless of the first matter, it should be removed, as the addition is not the i.d. of the editor who added it. Whether trhis would then result in some action against User:The King of Clay V2.0 would also seem to be independent of the first matter, although of course it may be superceded by what is done about the first matter. I would welcome thoughts about this and action of a friendly administrator if required.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Note User:The King of Clay was actually blocked on the 23rd.—Random832 15:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok update: After a quick chat with someone, I removed the attempt to add The king of Clay to the Cheshire WikiProject stating that it was not that user who made the edit. I still the other issue needs some attention, however.  DDStretch  (talk) 15:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked User:The King of Clay V2.0 indefinitely. Leaving it to someone else to evaluate whether User:The King of Clay's block should be extended, since this could hypothetically be someone else trying to make him look bad (the 5-day gap seems strange) and I haven't looked at the contributions in depth.—Random832 15:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Some overlap of contribution areas, needs an admin to review style issues. Preferrably one who knows something about British independent bands ... which definitely is not me. GRBerry 21:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

A CU would remove doubt if the two underlying ip's were sufficiently different, as would a clear positive if they are the same. A maybe leaves us back to here. My doubts would be in the matter that a soon to be expired block risks being extended for a) no real purpose, and b) via a fairly obvious alternate username... LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

71.93.222.223 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

I have a little conflict with 71.93.222.223, who keeps re-inserting a rather POV "Critisism" section on Kitchen Nightmares (talk), linking to his own blog and breaking virtually every other rule in the book as well. I've tried explaining him why the section doesn't meet Misplaced Pages standards, but the editor seems to ignore my arguments, and has now broken 3RR as well. I can't make any adminstrative action, as I'm now involved. — Edokter • Talk • 15:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I may have waded into the dispute. I saw the ip's edit on Recent Changes and reviewed it, then removed the section with WP:RS as a rationale. I didn't see the back and forth until I checked the history - and saw that you posted it here. Fumble on me. Is there already a 3rr report in the works, or should I leave it be? ZZ ~ Evidence 16:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There's no 3RR report yet; I was hoping some outside view might settle things without resorting to blocking. If anything, your revert helped establish some consensus. Giving your view on the article talk page might help, as the editor did request third opinions. — Edokter • Talk • 16:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am the editor in question. Here is some background for you to consider.

The section in question is about criticism of the TV show for portraying events in an untruthful or misleading manner. It's relevant especially because it provides larger context to the lawsuit issue which is addressed in the entry. This section was not created by me; I was completely unaware of it until I noticed hits from it coming into my website.

I came in and noticed two things. First, the cite was done incorrectly - it should have be listed as a footnote, not a link dropped in the middle of the article. I specifically did NOT change this myself, because I didn't want to be seen as linking to myself. Second, the original poster of the section had a fact incorrect. I fixed that and added two other facts.

Are blogs reliable sources? They can be. I would argue that on this subject and these facts, my blog should be considered reliable. I am a subject expert on media and television production and anyone who needs references can email me lee@stranahan.com for more. I have spoken at dozens of conferences, given published articles in various magazines and was an editor in chief of two magazines, both of which had national newsstand distribution. The cites were to posts where I reported on interviews that I had with the people involved in the show - not rumors I heard or something I read somewhere but direct interviews with the subjects. My blog contains many posts on the subject of Kitchen Nightmares specifically and at least three people involved in the show have also commented directly on my blog themselves about the show - and I spoke to them to confirm that it was actually their comments.

Additionally, there are multiple sources - not just my blog - that confirm an unusual level of fakery with Kitchen Nightmares. I was in the process of trying to cite those other sources - when the entire section was pulled down.

The admin could have asked for another cite or asked me a question. Instead, it was deleted. And when the admin states that I was "breaking virtually every other rule in the book as well" you can tell that he is going for drama, not a clear and concise explanation. I didn't ignore his arguements; they weren't valid.

Ultraexactzz waded in and stated that 'blogs aren't reliable sources'. This is not Misplaced Pages's position. Yes, there are reliability issues that are raised with self published material - and I am more than willing to answer any issue that I haven't already addressed here or to clarify anything. If anyone wants to check my facts, they are welcome to do so, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.222.223 (talk) 16:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Reverting back and forth and making your arguments in edit summaries is usually not a good way to go - this applies to both sides. if you have other sources, etc, go ahead and state them on the talk page. And, it's regrettable, but people do tend to assume the worst of non-registered users, and that may have contributed here. —Random832 17:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree about the problem with reverting which is why I am not going to revert the entry again. And I also agree about the non-registered user thing, but I've stated clearly who I am...and I can't change the past.

Now the issue to me a correct view of Misplaced Pages policy. Stating 'blogs aren't reliable sources' without further clarification or facts isn't correct, is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.222.223 (talk) 17:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Generally, blogs are considered unriliable sources. Blogs are self-published, which makes them count as original research. See Are weblogs reliable sources?, which is linked from the reliable sources page. Also, I did not asume the worst, I simply saw an editor not understanding the rules, and trying to correct it. Had I asumed the worst, you would heve been blocked by now. — Edokter • Talk • 17:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I said. Generally, a blog may not be reliable - but if you read the cite you sent there are exceptions. Generally does not mean 'no blog may be a source' - self published material may be cited as a source. So - why specifically was my cite considered unreliable? Specifically, not 'because it's a blog'. Have you read the articles cited? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.222.223 (talk) 17:47, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

And what administrative action is required here? east.718 at 17:50, November 29, 2007

I didn't move the discussion here, Edokter did...so I don't know, really. I asked him for a Truce so I could add references. He said no. I asked for him to switch it to another editor. He said no, but one someone sort of agreed with him he said it added consensus.

My issue is simple. What facts are in dispute? What statement was non-neutral? Where is the specific reliability issue? I keep asking for specifics - over and over - and not once has a specific example given about the facts or cite being questioned.

Usually, there's an example. "UserX cited sourceY about something. SourceY is unreliable for reasons A, B, C - plus it's a blog." I'm just getting 'it's a blog!'. Yeah, it is. Where's the rest? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.222.223 (talk) 18:01, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Shorter - in absence of any supporting specifics to refute the entire Criticism section, and given the history I stated above - the Admin action is 'please restore the Criticism section on Kitchen Nightmares' so that I or other can expand it. I'd consider that a truce, I guess. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.93.222.223 (talk) 18:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

(ECx2) The main problem is (un)verifyability, not truth. Facts are not important if they cannot be cited by a reliable, secondary source. Then there are other issues. First neutral point of view; No-one will dipute that the show is dramatised. In fact, it is a public secret. However there is no need to analyse this particular instance. Doing so puts an undue negative point of view to the article. Second, we have conflict of interest. It does not matter who put the link up first; by putting the link back, you create this conflict of interest, as you have a direct interest in that link being present. You wrote that blog post, meaning the cite is no longer neutral. Which bring us to the third issue: Original research. As you wrote the blog post, it's content is a direct result of your own research. Last, as all material needs to beverifyable, it needs secondary sources. Currently there are none. All these things combined makes the Criticism section over-all unallowable. I hope that explains it a bit. — Edokter • Talk • 18:08, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

east718, given that some time has passed with no further activity, I think that there's no need for any admin action at this time. Edoktor's argument above is persuasive, but - if there's a source somewhere that corroborates the claims made on the blog - maybe some of the information can be kept. There is discussion at the talk page, and I'll see if I can contribute there. Thanks, ZZ ~ Evidence 19:03, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Violation of WP:ICA by user Nikkul

User Nikkul is falsely claiming that I have added the sentence "Conversion in India has become hard Due to anti conversion laws which were made by hindu nationalist and extremists.To propogate ones religion other that Hinduism and sikhism is an activity which could cause Death as most citizens and many government officials are always 'conspiring to kill" in Human rights in India article. The truth is that this sentence is not added by me, but by IP user 122.169.51.217 See this link . I wonder how user Nikkul can make such false claim? He is violating WP:ICA by such false claim. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

See , . Didn't realize that this user did not input that. I am not trying to accuse this user of stuff he did not do. That was my mistake. This user has failed to remove the false claim, which still lies unremoved on the page. Nikkul (talk) 07:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Cobain conspiracy theory

I have been warning Jason2520 (talk · contribs) about his edits to Courtney Love. He is stating that there is legitimate debate over the cause of Kurt Cobain's death and whether or not the suicide note read by Love was real. As per WP:NPOV, I believe it is inappropriate to give such emphasis to a conspiracy theory held by an extreme minority of people and I have warned the user to please find a reliable source if he insists on continuing to change the wording. If he continues, I will have to block the user. Does anyone disagree with my interpretations of WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:V? Note that the user has noted that there may be WP:BLP issues, though I think if so, they are on his side. --Yamla (talk) 19:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

There was a discussion of this very issue several days ago, I think, either here or on BLP. Does anyone have a link for context? They are public figures and the dispute is real, even if not legitimate. Probably worth covering as a conspiracy theory but not for the truth value of the assertions, and not on Courtney Love's page. I think that's more of a BLP issue (on his side, yes) than an NPOV issue, but the weight is a problem too. Wikidemo (talk) 19:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It was at BLP; I remember seeing it. :) --Moonriddengirl 14:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting that an account that lay inactive for 15 months arrives on the heels of User:Cobaincase's (since blocked, along with a vandal account) attempts to insert similar allegations into the Love article. Tarc 17:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Sudan

This article has been the target of some anon IP activity today due to the "Teddy-bear" incident. This is likely to continue. In fixing the vandalism, however, the inline refs seem to have got mangled. Could someone check this out & confirm this, then semi-pp for, say, 24 hours please? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 19:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandal returned

Could someone check out 71.192.46.201 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). New run of vandalism after two previous blocks. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 19:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Reported at WP:AIV --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 19:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

And as I see he's blocked for a month, even though I am not an admin, I call this resolved. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:50, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Unconstructive suggestions

I'm aware that flaming, vituperation, and WP:POINT are the order of the day after the Durova mess. But it's hard to see how the next to last paragraph of this is helpful to anyone. Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

So far as I know, that is largely a copy of a post at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Durova and Jehochman/Proposed decision#Everyone else, that was somewhat endorsed by at least one Arbitrator (same page, prior section). I recommend a higher thought/keystroke ratio. GRBerry 19:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

So, we're now endorsing the public re-posting of private Misplaced Pages related correspondence? Just trying to get this straight. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

RA, I think posting to a blog site, so it can be "legally" quoted here is clearly against the spirit of the policy. However, perhaps, rather than condemning the page (or Giano's methods) the committee members should consider the motivation driving that page (and Giano's actions).

What hole in the dam are people trying to plug? To me, it appears to be a sincere effort (however misguided the current wording) to fix something that is at least perceived as being broken.

Some people have claimed that Durova would have gone to arbitration regardless of Giano... yet others firmly believe that DurovaGate would have been swept away and hushed.

Regardless of which would have happened (since we'll never know), perception is reality. Confidence in the system has been shattered, or at least soundly shaken. Whether or not Durova had permission to communicate to the committee, she claims that (at least some) members received her email. A good start toward repairing that faith would be for those members to come forward and said "oops". This would be some small step in the right direction to restore confidence in the leadership that is supposed to be overseeing the sailing of this ship.

There may not be a cabal, but as long as the perception exists so does the cabal. Lsi john (talk) 21:06, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

But only so long as it isn't done on Misplaced Pages, because somehow it is better to do it elsewhere than on Misplaced Pages. I believe in transparency, but I can't see why it is better to air our dirty laundry on the neighbor's lawn than our own. It is being gradually edited out. More thought, fewer keystrokes, especially in dramastorms. GRBerry 21:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Silly stuff. Are we endorsing it? Well, if we're locked into silly false dichotomies, sure. If we're not locked into binaries, then we're endorsing whistle blowing and the demystification of an attempted block without transparency, and we encourage people to keep e-mail private, while recognizing that retreating to e-mail is no way to conduct Misplaced Pages business without responsibility. How's that? Geogre (talk) 21:26, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Incomprehensible, I'd say. How do we "encourage people to keep e-mail private" by saying it's OK to post private correspondence on your own web page, or to splatter it across public forums? There's got to be a sensible middle ground between keeping everything top-secret and saying anything goes (except, ironically, posting Misplaced Pages-related email on Misplaced Pages itself). I note that the proposed guideline is in a state of flux and may yet come to a sensible conclusion. All concerned should keep in mind the principle that hard cases make bad law. Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

And horror vacui. (see above, arbcom has unfinished business). Lsi john (talk) 22:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, we say, "Keep e-mail private. Keep identities secret." However, we also acknowledge that e-mail is no justification for any action on Misplaced Pages unless that e-mail is part of Misplaced Pages record. There: I never wanted to try to specify anything, but that would do. You want to e-mail me to tell me I'm a dork? Ok. You want to e-mail me to tell me you're going to block me? Well, then that, if you haven't rationalized it on Misplaced Pages, is part of Misplaced Pages, and you should expect me to make it public in the absence of your having done so. If you block me and say, "per my secret e-mail to super respected people and Jimbo," then you'd best expect someone to post it, if you don't provide an accurate and complete summary. Don't use e-mail to justify on-wiki actions, and then no one should reveal any of your e-mail. Don't use irc to justify or perform Misplaced Pages actions, and no one will post a log. Try to rationalize, motivate, or hide Misplaced Pages actions in these ways, and you abrogate the expectation of privacy. Geogre (talk) 22:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

That is an interesting concept indeed. "If the author mentions the e-mail in any way which is used to justify an on-wiki action, it will be construed to be waiving any right of privacy to said email (or IRC log) and as such anyone may post it in full. Lsi john (talk) 22:30, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that I'd endorse this specific simplification of the issue, but I agree that as a general principle it should not be permissible to say both 1) "you may not question my evidence" and 2) "you may not see my evidence". So far as policy goes, it ought to reflect that saying 1 forecloses your right to insist on 2, even (perhaps, especially) if you come up with an interpretation of policy that says this is not so. — Gavia immer (talk) 16:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• It's one of the silliest ideas I've seen in a long time. Not only is it an open invitaiton to gaming, you could drive a coach and horses through it. Even if we applied a need-to-know basis, Giano's edit fail, because the arbitrators already had the email. This guideline was written to enable people to satisfy prurient interests, not to protect the project. Misplaced Pages is not, and never has been, a free speech zone. Guy (Help!) 13:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Misplaced Pages is not a dictatorship either. A balance needs to be struck that all can agree on. Carcharoth 13:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Right. And the balance here is that you can mail it to ArbCom. Guy (Help!) 13:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• There really ought to be some guidelines somewhere for non-insiders on how to appropriately make use of information from private correspondence. Saying here, "just email it to Arbcom" doesn't solve the problem. Also, the actual text of a message may not be its primary import. If, for example, someone writes you to say that they are not the same person as someone making a particular IP edit and the long headers or other software for tracking IP addresses used in email correspondence shows that your correspondent is using that very IP, the long headers or other ancillary IP indicators are the substanive part of the communication. --Pleasantville 13:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

  My gut feeling on that situation would be "email it to any checkuser" - they're the ones in the position to decide whether it is appropriate to publicly reveal the connection between an IP address and a username.—Random832 14:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

  But again, easily available guidelines are called for. --Pleasantville 14:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC) (Also, I don't think your check-user analysis is correct, as even IP editors can tag an IP as a suspected sock puppet.) --Pleasantville 14:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Corrado 72 (talk · contribs)

Would someone mind reminding Corrado 72 (talk · contribs) to be nice? His edits and tone... are a bit extreme. . Thanks. • Lawrence Cohen 20:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Clearly a sock of Layla27. Blocked. IrishGuy 20:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

FYI, recent glitch involving tags

As being discussed on Village Pump Technical, there appears to have been a glitch involving a few tags. Some pages have been corrupted that were edited during that time frame (currently 19:16 to 19:30 but could be larger). This page was not exempt from the corruption. One sign is if the page contains the UNIQ...QINU string which is a previous tag that has been corrupted. Just making everyone aware of this. spryde | talk 20:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Also some discussion at WT:AN. The end time is whenever they locked the database which I remember happened after several minutes of this stuff going on. NoSeptember 20:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Wacked out diff examples

• User:Blaxthos (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Regarding this diff: This afternoon I went to apply an {{update}} template to Comparison of BSD operating systems (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) without substituting the template. I edited the page via the standard form-style webpage editor provided by Misplaced Pages (no external editors or utilities) using Opera 9.24 (build 8816) under Windows Vista, and the only change I made was inserting {{update|article|date=November 2007}} (standard syntax for templates). I did not subst: the template, and I'm pretty sure I used the Preview option before submitting without noticing additional changes. I cannot explain how the rest of the changes occured, and am unsure if it's a broken template, a bug in the software, a problem with my browser, or what. Any help would be appreciated, as I am hesitant to make additional contributions to the project until I know what happened. DANKOO MULTIPASS. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 20:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I got two as well, here and here that someone else found. • Lawrence Cohen 20:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

See the section above. spryde | talk —Preceding comment was added at 20:43, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

vandalism and agenda pushing in 2007 civil unrest in Villiers-le-Bel (France)

please can you monitor and stop ongoing vandalism by agenda pushing users in the 2007 civil unrest in Villiers-le-Bel (France) article. these people are removing sourced facts and adding false and unsourced statement instead, and they are also adding confusing characters in the said article. thank you. Cliché Online (talk) 21:07, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am uninvolved in the content dispute, but I have been posting messages warning Cliche Online that I will block him/her if more civility is not shown. Cliche Online has also been edit warring and accusing other editors of vandalism, though this is clearly a content dispute and the other editors simply disagree with Cliche Online regarding the content. Cliche Online's position also appears to be on the short end of the developing talk page consensus, for what it's worth. I issued a final warning to Cliche Online just before I saw this message, encouraging him to discuss the situation civilly. · jersyko talk 21:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked Cliche Online for 24 hours for edit warring and continued incivility. Cliche Online continues to refer to the users on the opposing side of the content dispute "vandals". My suggestion is for Cliche Online to read WP:DISPUTE. · jersyko talk 21:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring at a set of Israeli/Palestinian articles; admins please review my action

Due to edit warring on List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada and its new fork List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, I have protected both pages for a week, each undoubtedly on the m:wrong version. Discussion seems to primarily have been at Talk:List of Israeli civilian casualties in the Second Intifada, as that is the older article. Can other admins from outside this conflict area review and decide if there is a better way to handle this, perhaps by awarding blocks to some of the editors? Thanks. GRBerry 21:40, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Clarification, they are both fork/splits of List of attacks committed during the Second Intifada, last discussed at AFD in September. Somewhere along the line that got moved to List of attacks on non-combatants in the Second Intifada. Israeli looks older because that is where the original article has been moved; but both are forks. GRBerry 21:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

When I arrived at the discussion, in early Nov, the title was List of massacres during the Second Intifada; it was tightly titled to include every suicide bombing during the period, The title construction was such that it only covered one side of the bloodshed. What ever ‘it’ was, it was fact and commonly understood from normal media sources. It had survived two AfDs; it was also quite easily ‘listable’. The ensuing title changes resulted from discussion to remove the emotive word ‘massacre’ and an attempt to cover death on both sides. That was, from what I saw, a positive evolution, except the Palestinian deaths are not in an easily listable format, because there are many methods of death and it is a very, very long list that is ’’’not’’’ commonly understood from normal media sources. Your admin action cut this process off at the knees. Fact: Palestinian deaths are nearly five times greater than Israeli deaths, and there is no article that deals with that except here, buried in the top right info block and argued throughout the ‘Casualties’ section. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Now that this article has been split in two, the resulting articles have just become pissing contests over death tolls. You're never going to have settlement here; the previous article survived AfD because at least it presented attacks on/by both sides; I'd suggest sending both articles back to AfD. If the incidents are notable enough they have got their own articles already. ELIMINATORJR 00:08, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Boy, you are right there; it started as soon as the consensus started to populate the companion list. The development of consensus took a month. But a new AfD isn’t the way to go, because they will both survive, trust me. They will argue the same points; my point has been that the common denomator is body count and the wikiperfect article should take that view. With the state of the Wiki-world as it is, that wiki-perfect article can't presently be written, so the POV fork was chosen and now there are two. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC).

I don't see how an AfD is a solution. Ideally, the list would have been one, not two, but since some people keep deleting Palestinian civilian deaths from the list using the argument that they are somehow not on the same level as Israeli deaths, the separation seemed necessary. I have found compiling the list useful in determining where new articles are needed. For example, I just created Iyman Hams by researching for the list article. What's wrong with making a list of casualties? Misplaced Pages is not paper. Tiamut 00:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The question is more whether having these lists is worth the effort of the resulting edit-wars which can be seen in their histories. ELIMINATORJR 00:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe that seeking an answer to that question when the two article compromise proposed by the AfD on the one list has barely been in effect for a day is a little premature. Why not give it a little time to see if the separation allows for things to simmer down? The new article List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada was a little less active (as regards to edit-warrining, that is) than the other. People still need time to digest the split and new naming scheme. Tiamut 00:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely premature. My very brief experience suggests that the proper action at this point is to lock out the filibusterer and his attached camera crew, not shut down progress. Time is required to build something honest and robust (i.e. NPOV); WP:AGF isn’t there. It only took God seven days to create the universe; mere mortals need at least a month to honestly build and defend an NPOV description of what has happened in the Holy Land. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The issue here is that some the delete voters from the last afd (there's actually been two afds) are outraged that it was kept, and have been disrupting the article ever since. The only options they appear to be able to accept is to either redefine it as a completely different list (deletion by other means) or create POV forks. Ironically, this was the objection to it at the afd because of a lack of massacres by the Israel Defense Forces on the list. They fervently believe that the IDF has committed massacres, however, they're having trouble finding RS support that the IDF actually targeted the civilians. Unlike the list that this one appears to have been modeled on, List of massacres committed during the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, the restricted to incidents in which at least 10 civilians or disarmed soldiers were killed deliberately "bar" has been dropped to allow terrorist attacks by Israelis such as this. Apparently that still isn't good enough, so now we have this clear violation of WP:POINT. <<-armon->> (talk) 04:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don’t know what other people did or didn’t do; I don’t give a fork, but suggest that a fork is, in fact, necessary at this juncture. I dont think ‘they‘ were outraged, severely miffed maybe, because the original article was such an un-Wiki path to start with; the article was not deleted because it was, in fact, true and defensible; but it also absolutely required a companion article, which was immediately warred upon. I accept that the effect of what appears to have happened can honestly be considered a ‘deletion by other means’, but note that if the originial article hadn’t been engineered and defended specifically to include only one side, it wouldn’t have been such a problem. This is the fault of its creators, not its complainers (which constitute the consensus). Concerning ‘their’ belief that the IDF has committed massacres, I can reasonably say that they have the RSs, that in fact, dispute what you fervently hope and apparently believe. To put it in a more specific topical light, I believe the term ‘zealous’ might be better. Concerning a similar 1948 list upon which this article is somehow supposed to have been based, I will note that 1948 is sufficient time to allow reasonableness; but 2000 to 2006 is insufficient time to allow this to happen. Simply put, 1948 is history; 2000 to 2006 is current events. Also, there is no way to simply and equitably compare ‘listable’ big blasts with an un-listable endless stream of single bullets that have created a much higher total body count. I honestly believe and hope that the WP:Point to be considered by Wiki-Admin is the total body count, not the side that is sufficiently and regularly covered by normal media sources. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• I concur with Tiamut that the conflict should given time to sort itself out, since the split is very recent. I also concur with the protection by GRBerry, always wise. If the discussion cannot sort itself out of the talk pages after a few days, we can proceed from there. I'll look over the history, to see if blocks are warranted, but I'd suggest a little laxness, since the split was initially bound to cause some upset; I don't believe this necessarily reflects the probability of long-term success. At least the discussion has moved forward to trying this new approach -- that's progress. Xoloz (talk) 10:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Your comments come from your previous involvement. I appreciate that. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don’t know if I want to be here, but there are mis-understandings and mis-statements above this line that should be corrected or maybe be re-examined. Not knowing better, I have made specific comments above where they can be best understood. I have been in the discussion for a month. You don’t know me from Adam, I’m a newbie; so, read my posts, it might be helpful and I believe that my views generally represent the consensus. CasualObserver'48 16:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Who'm I gonna call?

OK, on the talk page of User:JNW we have recently seen an entity describing itself as User:Whistlersghost sending him comments in ye olde Englishe seemingly telling him to leave certain pages alone. Those edits have been the only edits this editor has made under this name , , , and , other than one edit to create a userpage here. Presumably he called himself something else when he was, um, living. Which of you all around here handle exorcisms? John Carter (talk) 22:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to guess that this is either a new account for someone who was editing previusly on a different one at James McNeill Whistler, or someone who is just pulling JNW's leg for other reasons. JNW's edits to that article are reasonable. I can't see anything that needs administrative attention at this time, but this will change if wg repeats his behavior. Feel free to speak to the ghost and advise him that his conduct is not appropriate, and that exorcists and ghostbusters are available should the need arise. GRBerry 22:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Blocked for trolling and attempted harassment. Exorcised as it were. IrishGuy 22:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you all work quickly! While all manner of phantasmagoria exist in artist's studios, it is disconcerting to encounter them online. Thank you, JNW (talk) 22:46, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Trivia issues on South Park articles

Imaginationland, Imaginationland Episode II and Imaginationland Episode III are getting out of hand. Each episode features many references to characters, so massive lists are on the articles. Anytime they get removed, they are re-added for no good reason. A poll is on the talk page: which is a joke, and basically full of editors that don't know policies on trivia and cluttered lists. Can anyone help out? RobJ1981 (talk) 23:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

The sections on "allusions" are valid, even if the content will need to be trimmed. The charcters lists should not be included and I have removed them. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 00:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to blank the "allusions" sections and leave an HTML comment about sourcing, though I expect to be reverted by cruft-pushin fanatics... RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 00:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The sections on allusions aren't valid. What sources are they citing? Someone sitting down, watching the episode and drawing his or her own logical conclusions is original research. Articles need to site secondary sources. A Train 18:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

As predicted: they were re-added back. However, it was only on Imaginationland so far. What else can we do about this? I requested page protection the other day, but it was declined. These fanatics simply wont stop, unlesss something harsh is done in my view. RobJ1981 19:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Apparent sockpuppetry

I can't do a checkuser to be absolutely positive, but it would be most improbable if these accounts weren't sockpuppets, or at least meatpuppets. User:Xantheif src created Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/xantheif src at 23:10, editing it again at 23:19. Then at 23:22, User:Commonthoughty11 !votes support at the RFA (the account's only contrib). Then User:Judaspolice !votes support at 23:24 (the account's only contrib), using the same format. Putting two and two together: sockpuppets. Useight (talk) 23:44, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't need a checkuser to call these guys sock/meatpuppets. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have checkuser and I called them socks anyway. Either way, it's irrelevant whether I called them socks or not, they're definitely socks. I just couldn't do anything about it, so I brought it here. Useight (talk) 00:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry if my comments/edits seem hurried or hasten right now, I'm actually at work and can only edit in quick spurts. Useight (talk) 00:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

(EC) If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. нмŵוτнτ 00:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't bring this here for confirmation as to whether these accounts are socks or not, and I am already aware of WP:DUCK. I brought this here so the sock accounts could be blocked. However, I don't know what I was thinking (it's been a long day and I'm editing from the office so I get interrupted a lot), I should have taken it to AIV in the first place. I'll report it there now. Useight (talk) 00:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Upon actually getting a response from the user, I don't think there was any malicious intent in the use of socks. Just a newbie who didn't know the rules doing something silly. Block the socks, sure, but I don't believe any action is necessary against the puppeteer. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:53, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

After I reported the socks to AIV, they were both blocked. I also agree that no action is required against User:Xantheif src, just some guidance as he gets started. Useight (talk) 01:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Speedy Delete Help

attack page User:Lilsweetie07 11 deleted. Pegasus «C¦T» 00:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am having problems keeping a speedy delete template up and keeping the user from blanking the content before putting up a hangon tag. Could some one take a look at it

User:Lilsweetie07_11 also it seems that not only is his user at it but User:KyAngel7. But it seems that both users know each other in some way based off of this. Both users seem to not have any knowledge of Misplaced Pages guidelines. Rgoodermote  00:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Block review of Cabin Member

Yesterday I declined a speedy delete nomination of Image:Latif Pedram 2002.jpg by Cabin Member, but on closer look found that it indeed violated the non-free content criteria and tagged it myself as {{di-replaceable fair use}}. However, his insistence that the image be really speedy-deleted led me to suspect his tagging was ultimately done in bad faith. Seeing that he had been warned as far back as a month ago for such image deletion tagging , I blocked him indefinitely for this disruption. In my block summary I noted my suspicion that this is a sockpuppet account, because which new user heads straight to image space and begins tagging stuff for speedy deletion?

Today I wake up and find that even though Nat has declined to unblock , Physchim62 has asked me to unblock because "His edits do not seem to fall under the definition of vandalism", and given that "you yourself were edit warring with him... you response seems quite excessive in the circumstances." Well on reviewing Cabin Member's contribs and deleted contribs again, I find at least one image (Image:Afghan National Army parade 2006.JPG) whose tagging appears to be outright vandalism. In addition it seems at least an odd coincidence that all his image taggings have been of Afghanistan-related images.

In conclusion although I have not come with clean hands (thanks Jreferee for teaching me this term) in seeking this block to be reviewed, I still believe my block to be justified and would be averse to anyone undoing it without a convincing reason. Pegasus «C¦T» 01:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any pity for editors who resort to edit warring and vandalism accusations instead of discussion after being informed why their speedy deletions were being declined. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with the block and, given the obvious topic focus, it appears obvious that the editor tagged with an agenda, not to protect WP. — Coren  16:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Critical Reader

Critical Reader (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), is an WP:SPA whose edits revolve solely around the promotion of Norman Golb and the dismissal of any views that criticizes Golb's views.

He edits exclusively on related articles:

• Dead Sea Scrolls (about which Dr. Golb wrote a book in which he proffered a dissenting opinion;
• Who Wrote The Dead Sea Scrolls? (book) the book itself
• Qumran
• San Diego Natural History Museum, that is hosting an exhibition of the Dead Sea Scrolls, about which Golb wrote a scathing review that was published in a website belonging to the University he teaches on
• Ancient Qumran: A Virtual Reality Tourm a 3D movie playing at the San Diego exhibit, about which Golb published another scathing article based on an unpublished script of the film;
• Robert Cargill User:IsraelXKV8R, the creator of the movie; who is no longer editing these articles due to WP:COI;
• William Schniedewind, who worked with Cargill on the virtual reality movie.

Critical Reader has created several sockpuppets, or has likely engaged in canvassing to attract like-minded new people which have interacted on these articles, and has already been found of using sockpuppets to promote his opinions. See Misplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets/Critical_Reader

In addition, the following aliases are likely meat/sock puppets for 'Critical Reader':

• Philip Kirby (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (indef blocked for SP violations)
• Harold Milton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• David Saunderfeld (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jacob Stein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

All of the above user accounts:

• are single purpose accounts, editing/commenting exclusively on these articles and about the debate invlving Golb's views
• created on or about the same time period
• use similar style, grammar, vocabulary
• all use a litigious, combative approach
• possess knowledge of the debate

I came across this user and these articles upon a posting at WP:BLP/N which I monitor, attempting initially to address some BLP concerns related to the William Schniedewind article (see Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive23). Later on I became involved in actively editing these articles, only to become the target of this user and his sock/meat puppets's vitriol and personal attacks.

I had enough now, and intend not to continue developing these articles with these people around: I do not need the aggravation. Left unwatched, these articles are likely to become a POV magnet for this user, which has already been found out to be off-wiki, a very prolific poster of the same exact arguments, and with the same style, in blogs, and in comments made to online newspaper articles on the subject. This information is available to interested admins upon request.

There are additional concerns filed in OTRS ticket #2007112710018004 by a third party.

I request an indefblock, topic ban, probation, or other such remedies for user:Critical Reader for repeated violation of WP:SOCK and WP:SOAP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have indef blocked the three new obvious sock, and blocked Critical Reader (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for one week for repeat violation of WP:SOCK. Let's hope he gets the hint this time. — Coren  04:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Our friend has returned, minutes after his block, to evade it with a new sock (Myriamyst (talk · contribs)), and has been blocked indefinitely. I would recommend that he not be unblocked without a serious parole, possibly involving a topic ban. — Coren  05:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Page Protection Abuse

I did an edit on the Kitchen Nightmares page in reference to a lawsuit, with a clear cite to the legal papers of the suit. An Admin took down the edit as 'original research' and put the page on protection. The Admin in question lists their status as 'Retired' and 'Traveling On Business'.

I have had a miserable day on Misplaced Pages. Help me, Obi Wan Admin....you're my only hope. LeeStranahan (talk) 04:54, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Guy is neither retired nor inactive. east.718 at 04:58, November 30, 2007

Hi, I can explain this. You need a reliable source before you insert such information, and the admin did not protect the page just because of your edit. Checking the history, many people inserted unsourced edits. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 05:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

So - the legal papers are not a reliable source of information about what is in the legal papers?

And if he is not retired or inactive, why does his page say that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeeStranahan (talk • contribs) 05:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A secondary source which discusses the legal papers would be sufficient. His talk page says he's tired, by the way. east.718 at 05:08, November 30, 2007

JzG's user talk page has the "re" in "retired" crossed out so it says, "this user is tired of silly drama in Misplaced Pages." Also, maybe you could cite a website. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 05:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok - I didn't get the Re Tired pun thing. Thanks.

I cited a web page that had the legal papers. All the secondary sources I've seen were extremely thin as to the actual content of the case - they were more 'Celebrity Sued!' types of articles.

Shouldn't have the Tired guy said some of this, however? —Preceding unsigned comment added by LeeStranahan (talk • contribs) 05:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Bot or not?

208.116.11.41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is currently making bot reports on UAA. I would like to know whether it's a bot or someone impersonating a bot. -Goodshoped 04:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's H's bot, it's just logged out. east.718 at 04:59, November 30, 2007

Tried to do a WHOIS and it failed. Maybe it is a bot. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 05:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The RDNS resolves to http://thor.krellis.org/ - User:HBC NameWatcherBot is operated by User:Krellis. Looks like the bot just got logged out. Mr.Z-man 05:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright, then, never mind. -Goodshoped 05:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Not really "never mind." All bots are meant to check if they are logged out, and stop if they are. Three times in that contributions log it's made several edits in a row while logged out. Probably needs a slight tune-up? - CygnetSaIad (talk) 06:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Karyn Kupcinet article

Me and another editor are having issues regarding the Karyn Kupcinet article. The article is somewhat controversial and has undergone a whole lot of changes, but the two of us are attempting to get it right and up to Misplaced Pages standards. Long story short, a few people have been making this next to impossible. I rewrote the article last night after discussing it with the other editor (basically, there's only three of us battling it out) and we both agreed on content, sources, etc. Today, two users (one newly registered) have decided that they don't like a particular theory that is included and have set about to remove it. Yes, theories are frowned upon in an encyclopedic sense, but the reason the article basically exists is because her murder was connected to the JFK assassination. Since the theories were presented by reliable third parties, we both agreed to include them. In the past hour, DefianceofTheGood (newly registered) reverted my edits twice and called me an obsessed fan. I responded to them on the article's talk page. Both me and the other editor have attempted to have compromise with the one editor who continues to battle with us and I have tried to get the page protected. Nothing seems to be working. Short of letting people put whatever they think happened, what else can be done? Pinkadelica (talk) 06:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You could always try dispute resolution. Seraphimblade 08:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Help fixing page move

For some reason an editor moved Bamban, Tarlac (about a municipality in the Philippines) to Sto. Nino Academy Bamban, Tarlac so that the editor could replace the article about the city with an article about a school in the city. Another editor tried to fix this by restoring the former text, yet the article about the city is still located on the school's page, Sto. Nino Academy Bamban, Tarlac. Can someone help get the Bamban, Tarlac article about the city to be on the Bamban, Tarlac page? Thanks. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Is it fixed? This didn't require any admin tools. east.718 at 07:19, November 30, 2007

Looks good. WODUP 07:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ridiculous but heated (wheel) war at Misplaced Pages:Classification of administrators by name

This was protected following serious wars, but, as one can see, this has not abated. I think a lengthy discussion is now needed. It really is ridiculous: a war over whether a "category" is insulting. -- Anonymous Dissident 08:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Stewards are being flagged down right now. east.718 at 08:38, November 30, 2007

Please don't. And if a steward has been contacted and sees my message, please have the sense to not desysop anyone. Everyone involved with that page just needs to cool down; a desysopping would be counterproductive, as it would ignite even more conflict. --Iamunknown 08:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that is possibly the lamest edit war I have seen on wikipedia. Viridae 08:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I can only echo that. This is completely ridiculous - admins should definitely know better than to engage in utterly silly conflicts like this. henrik•talk 08:47, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ludicrous - Alison 08:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have an image of a large scottish man in my head screaming "ARE YE DAFT MAN!!!!". ⇒SWATJester 08:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear God. I second Swatjester's comments. Save us. Pedro :  Chat  09:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I did a google images search for a "big hairy scottish man" to photoshop and it yielded gay porn :( Viridae 09:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, it looks like Jc37 (talk · contribs) and Mikkalai (talk · contribs) have been reverting each other over some section headings? Abtract (talk · contribs) moved the page to "Classification of users by name," saying "it should be open to all;" the move was reverted by Jc37, who justified this by saying that only admins should be adding themselves. As far as I can tell, Jc37 protected to their own preferred version on two fronts, and then they and Mikkalai continued reverting back and forth on the protected page (both being admins). Why on earth is this such a big deal to everybody that they're wasting admin tools like this? – Luna Santin (talk) 09:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't want anyone de-sysopped here, but fully protecting something that only admins were interested in at the time is pointless in itself any way. Lame? Beyond Lame. Also, there was no category to put myself in, so I feel very put out :) Pedro :  Chat  —Preceding comment was added at 09:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You could put yourself in the "Boring" category, so long as you're not insulted by it... Gracenotes § 09:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ha! see my ec'd comment below! Yes - boring I must be! Is there a kill joy category? Pedro :  Chat  09:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a bloody "Neopian" category...sad, since otherplaces my moniker is the Neopian Doppelganger (hence the Kacheek emote in my sig). -Jéské 09:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Not only is it a pointless page (and not even funny), it begat an even worse wheel war. This is the shit WP:LAME thrives on. Really. Mike H. Celebrating three years of being hotter than Paris 09:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It was as a result of highlighting this page to admins that respected editor in good standing User:Jreferee ended up with a 15 minute block, that also proved contentious (see here). Much as I love WP:COMMUNITY if this is going to cause so much grief, wheel warring and "mis-use" of admin tools it may be better to take it to WP:MFD, sadly. It's just a bit of fun but we can't have this. Shame. Pedro :  Chat  09:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

MfD? It came from userspace, so why not just put it back there? Carcharoth (talk) 09:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, just wow guys edit warring on a humourous, and protected page?... Seriously if you're not even able to abide with the policies you are enforcing, it might be a good time to reconsider your involvement... -- lucasbfr 09:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Note. I've advised Jc37 (talk · contribs) and Mikkalai (talk · contribs) of this thread, as no-one seems to have let them know yet. Pedro :  Chat  09:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the notice, I was unaware of it.

I did some counting earlier, and I don't think either of us went past 3RR, since it involved different sections. (and I'll freely admit to sleeping in between some edits.)

That said, I attempted to discuss this with the user (as did others) here, at their talk page (now archived), noting that as the admins in question are adding themselves (one such admin reverted the user's removal), they should be allowed the capacity to decide what they feel is "insulting" to themselves. I also dropped a note on Radiant!'s talk page (since, at the time, it was a subpage of his userpage).

Slim Virgin may have crossed the line slightly , and though I honestly think she did so with humour (and was supported by at least one person), I did comment about it at her talk page as well.

And in hindsight it dawned on me that I could resolve the user's issues if we just protected the page so that admins could be the only ones to edit. That way her concerns of potential "vandalism" would be unwarranted. That's been/being discussed on that page's talk page.

And finally, I don't have a "preferred version", except to let the admins decide for themselves : )

I hope this helps clarify. - jc37 09:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment by involved party which is Mikkalai, classified by SlimVirgin as "Boring": I was strongly opposed the admin categories "Boring" and "Total Nonsense" on the grounds that there are jokes and there are sick jokes and in a multicultural community it is very easy to cross the line, and if someone tells you "back off, this is offensive", you better back off. In response SlimVirgin classified me as "Boring" in this page. Even my replacing "Notal Nonsense" by "Unfathomable" was duly reverted several times. A while ago a long-time active but kinda pain in the ass user was blocked indefinitely because he called someone Muntenian, which was classified as "unquestionably racist" attack by the blocking admin referrred to a "consensus" of an unknown discussion and quorum, and who firmly stood his ground despite numerous protests.

Further, in an outrageous gesture of self-isolation from the rest of the community the page was protected from edits by non-admins. And you are saying "There is no cabal". It appears there is, a self-loving and self-righteous one, with its own subculture of growing intolerance.

Misplaced Pages is for creating encyclopedia. I see a growing number of people turning it in a playground. If it is too boring for you to write interesting articles, and it even became boring for you to chase vandals, to delete stubs about presidents multibillion companies saying the "notability not proven" (feels good, try sometime), and block colleagues for months for minor infractions, get some real life. `'Míkka>t 16:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It was a joke, Mikka, which I posted because you were reverting the boring category. My apologies if it offended you. SlimVirgin

I'm tempted to say that we should waive 3RR and no-wheel-warring for this page and let people take out their repressed desires to edit-war and reverse other admins and flame either other here, rather than someplace more important. For lameness, however, nothing will ever top last Christmas Eve's lengthy discussion on whether to block Santa Claus. Newyorkbrad 16:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This category shouldn't even exist, it serves no point whatsoever. I believe it is also a sub user page of Radiant!'s, which I do not object to, but as a category, I do. And yes, this should be added to the lamest edit wars list. — Rlevse • Talk • 17:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad's idea would be great, except I think part of the issue is whether or not people could be added, by others, to "insulting" categories. So, I propose creating a new page, WP:FIGHTCLUB (with additional redirects WP:CAGEMATCH and WP:THUNDERDOME), where rules about 3RR, CIVIL, NPA, wheel warring, etc are all waived. There's only one rule: you are not allowed to mention another human being that has not already entered the cage. (well, there are two rules, and that's the second one; the first rule is "no talking about WP:FIGHTCLUB"). --barneca 17:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This may be more cathartic. ;) Black Falcon 17:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment 7 of the 8 names covered in this diff are self-added: Alvestrand, Alex Bakharev, Akradecki, Jehochman, ais523, Xoloz, TSO1D. Since this is a humour page, I think we can agree that anyone who doesn't want his/her name anywhere on the page, or in a particular section, needn't see it appear there. However, the fact that these names were self-added (indeed, the category titles were created by two of the users listed above) should ameliorate concerns about their potential to give offense. Please let's end this unproductive thread. – Black Falcon 17:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Sensitive contact details in BLP article

Should this edit be deleted from the history of the article? Jeffpw (talk) 11:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It is funny that the article states "The ordinance prohibits any harassment that utilizes an electronic medium, including the internet, text messaging services, pagers, and similar devices" yet happily repeats the name of a woman who has faced no charges over the case, using solely blogs as sources for her name, basically alleging (within the article) she was responsible for Meier's suicide. Note the sources from real media sources (such as or ) do not give the name, but Misplaced Pages does. The entire article is a reeking BLP violation at the moment. Neil ☎ 11:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Neil, the name of the woman was only posted in the article after a reputable newspaper reported it in an article. The article itself (a link to it) is in the bio and on the talk page. But the adress never should have gotten in the article. I contacted the concerned editor, but think it should be taken out of the history, if possible. Jeffpw (talk) 11:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The three references (currently numbers 2, 3 and 4) given to state the woman is "responsible for the death". Not one of them state that or anything like that, merely the fact the Drews have been the victims of harrassment (Misplaced Pages editors who should know better have subsequently synthesized 1+1 and made 5). There's not one reliable source for giving the Drews' names in conjunction with this case. Neil ☎ 11:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have just reread the article after reading your concerns, Neil, and don't see what you are seeing. This reference names the woman, and the article basically paraphrases what the newspaper says. I see no BLP infraction. I did not make the edit, but I do not feel it needs to be changed. My concern, however, is that the woman's address has been put into the article, and even though it has been removed, it remains in the history. Does an admin feel that the address needs to be removed from the history? That is the only question which needs answering on ANI. The rest can go onto the talk page or the BLP noticeboard. Jeffpw (talk) 12:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jeffpw. WP:RFO states "Removal of nonpublic personal information such as phone numbers, home addresses, workplaces or identities of pseudonymous or anonymous individuals who have not made their identity public. ". So if the information is not publicy available then request oversight at that board (you e-mail an oversighter and they'll make a decision). If (and only if) the information is publically available then I can't see any issue leaving it in the revision history. Pedro :  Chat  12:57, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Pedro. I'll e-mail oversight with the edit. The address was found and posted on blogs, and the person has had their house vandalised as a result. I'd rather err on the side of caution. Jeffpw (talk) 13:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If that is the case, then Misplaced Pages certainly should not be party to publishing the address in any way. As you say, err on the side of caution. Pedro :  Chat  13:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that caution should be exercised in cases like this (people's property being vandalised), even though it is available (and more accessible) elsewhere. The address was added in this edit so all revisions between will need to be removed. Might be helpful to include that in the email unless you've already sent it. James086 13:10, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing large chunks of edit history (I didn't even look, but you said "all revisions between") is a problem for the GFDL, though I hope that the oversights know this and can take appropriate measures like pasting the history entries to the talk page.—Random832 14:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Oversight gives more information on this. It is acknowledge that there may be no simple solution at time when subsequent edits have occured in proper attribution (GFDL I'm not sure about). Pedro :  Chat  14:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

There's 26 edits to be removed but I'm sure the Oversights will figure something out. There were only 3 different editors to change the page in that time, 2 of which have edited it much more, so they are credited in the history elsewhere. The other editor was just adding a wikilink. Still, there's probably a procedure established for this. James086 14:48, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I've emailed the diffs to Oversight, and have added a message on the article talk page in bold, saying that the info may not be returned to the article, with links to policy supporting that. Jeffpw 15:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If nothing else, they could just kill all revisions from the time the information was introduced to the present. That'd be drastic, but would solve the attribution problem.—Random832 18:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Vvmundakkal

Advice. User:Vvmundakkal may have just violated WP:LEGAL. Basically, the guy has been focused on an extremely limited series of articles, one of which is Ezhava. That article had been permanently locked down for almost a month and after a ton of discussions, a good semi-clean version was there. All he has done since then is:

• revert back to the old biased one (note that he starts adding it in pieces later which you are telling are just copy-and-paste because its two ref tags for the same source badly done).
• He did attempt to simply post a pile of OR at Talk:Ezhava but I can't get him to actually discuss anything.
• He keeps recreating List of Notable Ezhavas (regarding of what I keep telling him about the previous deletions), again no sources.
• Tonight, he complains and warns me (User_talk:Ricky81682#Re) that he has talked on the "Orkut forums and we have planned to contact Mr Vayalar Ravi GOI Federal minster,(in order to reach a amicable solution)"
• Tonight, he again post the exact same old text (the problem is that sources are all lies - 2 are the same and say nothing of the sort, 2 others are online and also complete misrepresentations).
• He's added something at Talk:Ezhava but frankly, I'm pretty sure it'll be the same.

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for what to do with an article like Ezhava where there are a ton of books cited but the ones I've managed to get have so far been mostly completely nonsense or non-existent? Delete and start over? Any help would be very appreciated. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

please see , this was he reported as vioaltion. please see my reply in detail. i am not a regular editor of Misplaced Pages and i have more or less infor abt wiki policies. I strongly beilive that i have not vilated any policies.

Please find details added on Talk:Ezhava pointing refs for the content added.

regarding List of Notable Ezhavas

Many so called List of Ezhava Tharavads or List of Nair Tharavads deleted because there seem to be no valid resources to varify it. Now the List of Notable Ezhavas consists of entries/items which has an article in wiki. I think there are list like this

There are many list like List of Nairs, which also consists of some items or entries doesnt have an article in wiki. still its there and also its just list of Notable ezhavas,(not the list of all ezhavas). Also If you see Nambiar (Nair Subcaste), its also has a large list of family names and list people from that community. None of these entries(in List of Nairs and Nambiar (Nair Subcaste)) are varifiable there except one or two which have an article in wiki. thank you

Vvmundakkal (talk) 11:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not seeing where this user has made a legal threat, and other than that this looks like a content dispute. You may want to try dispute resolution. Natalie 16:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Michael Broadbent

John Michael Broadbent (notable wine chap) has been replaced with Michael James Broadbent (not notable Australian) at the instance of User:Broadbent30. Please could it be reverted. - Kittybrewster ☎ 12:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Reverted (non-admin) and warning given to Broadbent30 --WebHamster 12:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying us. Note that you could have done it by clicking on the date of the previous revision, then edited and saved that revision. -- lucasbfr 12:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Forwarded request

The following request for a block is being made by 213.124.168.231 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) with this message: "This IP address is from Da Vinci College in Gorinchem, Netherlands. It is full of students and will probably continue to be a source of vandalism. I recommend this account be blocked indefinitely."

• note: I wasn't for sure if I should add this {{SharedIPEDU|Da Vinci College in Gorinchem, Netherlands}}

because the ip-hostmask doesn't identify the school. also this ip-address has never received a block before but has been warned many times.▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡ 13:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If they want to block their college from editing Misplaced Pages they can do it at their end, through technical restrictions. No need for us to intervene. We've been down this line before, I'm sure. Pedro :  Chat  13:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll convey the message, should I also add the SharedIPEDU template to alert admins in the future?▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡ 13:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

May as well. Thanks Sirex. Pedro :  Chat  13:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Moldopodo

This user has already been brought once here because of PA remarks against me on his userpage. He had then opposed the admin's deletion of questionable text from his page, reintroducing the text, until he was threatened with more severe action by the admin who handled that.

Nevertheless, he has reintroduced the remarks under a different form: "My page was vandalised by User:Moldorubo related to User:Dc76." I have asked him nicely to remove them. However, he does not want to respond to this, despite the fact that he has been online for many-many hours in the last 4 days, since I asked him.

Could you, please, see that the remarks are removed. I have stated clearly to the user that I have no relation to Moldorubo, and I dislike being suggested that I am related with a banned user. I asked that all references to me be removed from his page.:Dc76\ 16:37, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• You may delete my post if I am not allowed to post here. All I wanted to say, User Moldorubo used exact same edits, exact same language, exact same places, exactly at the time when user Dc 76 was off line, right after the heating with editing on Balti article, and right after Dc 76 publicly declared "I will not edit for the next hours". When I have publicly mentioned all thse details on one of the talk pages, User Dc 76 reappeared and pretended to have an imaginary dialog with User Moldorubo on Balti talk page with personal references (which may as well fall under personal attack policy) in my regard (which were at a certain point deleted from the talk page, but I brought them back). Should you (the neutral person who will review this) need more references, exact diffs, etc. please let me know on my talk page by a short notice request and I will spend the necessary time and find them all. In the meanwhile you can find all of them on my talk page and on Balti (as referred to Moldavian city) talk page. I would also like to draw your attention to the fact that the user apparently plays with I.P. addresses (we had just as Polish IP users editing the same edits as Dc 76 or Moldorubo, as well as Tanzaian IP users doing exact same dits at exact same places while Dc 76 was "officially offline", who surprisingy know so much about Moldova in general and even about Balti (city in Moldova) in particular, being either in Poland or in Africa, interesting coincidence. Thank you in advance.Moldopodo (talk) 23:20, 27 November 2007 (UTC)Moldopodo

The above text is a characteristic sample of badmouth and unsubstantiated claims by Moldopodo. I would like to state again for the record: I have no relationship with Moldorubo or any blocked users. My only possible mistake was that I considered Moldorubo a good faith editor, without checking his/her contribs, and exchanged two paragraphs. The fact that a blocked user does some edits when I am offline should not be my concern. I also am outraged at the indication that I play with some IPs. I hereby ask a sysop to perform an IP check against whomever one wishes. Recently (last several months) I edited from two IP addresses: home and office, both located in the same city, same country. I am open to provide futher information by email to an admin that needs that. I fail to understand what is wrong with the fact that someone from Poland or Tanzania does a random edit on one of the articles I edit; how can I be responsible for that?.

I also ask respectfully to review the above statement by Moldopodo, and decide whether it is not an abuse for one user to badmouth another one so shamelessly (full of falsities) as Moldopodo just did above.

After this would be done, I have a last request. I would like to ask a sysop to check Moldopodo against this person, the administrator of this site. Moldopodo has constantly pushed for the inclusion of this website as an external link to the artilce Bălţi, despite it being a commercial site, and I am afraid we are dealing with a commercial PR campaign here. :Dc76\ 14:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Dispute resolution, second on the left down the hall. Guy (Help!) 15:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

About Moldorubo, he has already been confirmed as User:Bonaparte, so the Tanzanian Ip's make perfect sense. About verifying Mold's identity, Misplaced Pages is based on the respect of anonymity, so identifying a user certainly should not be done. TSO1D 15:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

2. So, a statement that I am related to Bonaparte should just stay on that user's page?
3. The proper place for this last one is dispute resolution, but I just want to add the extent to which I meant it: I suggest that there could be a conflict of interest, of commercial nature, when an user related to a company repeatedly adds his/her company in the external links of the city's WP article. Who that user is in real life is not my concern, you are right here. So, only about commercial interest, nothing more. :Dc76\ 16:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

String of usernames

I am not very well versed in usernames and/or sockpuppets, so I thought it better to report this suspicious group of names and creations here (a bit too complicated for WP:UAA, probably).

Created today:

• 15:21: User:Annual pilgrimage
• 15:21: User:Insult da profet
• 15:22: User:Going to hell if i shave my beard (blocked at 15:33 by Pilotguy)
• 15:23: User:God isn't real
• 15:24: User:Allah is the greatest, most merciful
• 15:24: User:Forgive my sins

I suspect that these are six accounts by the same user (aren't users restricted to max 6 accounts per IP per day?), and the second, third, fourth and fifth are immediately blockable per our user name policy (2nd and 4th probably with a username hardblock). What to do with user 1 and 6? Leave alone? Block? Checkuser? Fram 15:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd say block em all. This is simply a hunch, but a load of socks were attacking The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its talk page. As well as my and GlassCobra's user pages. I think the only reason those haven't done anything is because I protected the article and its talk page. I may be wrong but I think there is a good chance that they are connected. They may be the Genesis vandal.KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 15:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Giovanni Giove (redux)

Giovanni Giove (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Dalmatia

Recently Giovanni Giove has taken to removing talk page posts he doesn't like on the grounds that they are "personal attacks". The problem is that (a) the comments he removes are not personal attacks, (b) he edit wars over it, and (c) Giovanni himself makes comments that are much worse than the comments he removes. Examples of supposed "personal attacks" removed: (edit warring over it: ), , (edit warring over it: ), . Examples of peronal attacks Giovanni has himself been making: "poor, poor idiots", "shameful lies of shameful users", "you (...) are a shame for your own country". (These are not exhaustive lists)
Giovanni Giove is on an ArbCom revert parole (one rever per page per week). Whether this applies to talk pages seems to be a grey area (though one ArbCom clerk I spoke to said it probably would) but the underlying issue here - the total inability to work with other editors - needs to be addressed regardless. I am more than aware that few users in the Dalmatia dispute are saints, but one user is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of edit warring, POV pushing and generally creating conflict. I indefblocked Giovanni Giove a fortnight ago for this reason, though Thatcher131 reduced this to two days on the grounds that there were extenuating circumstances (I hold no grudge against him for that). Giovanni Giove unfortunately has not changed at all since then, has continued with his typical POV warrioring and indeed has become significantly more hostile towards everyone. I think it's time that we realise that he is unlikely to become a productive user anytime soon given his deep-seated POV and substantial history of disruption (see block log). Therefore, I ask the community to ban this user. – Steel 16:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the terms of parole, this is a clear WP:3RR violation (that isn't limited to articles). I am blocking for one week; let's hope that's sufficient for him to cool down. — Coren 

(Added note) I don't think it's clear that the revert parole would apply to talk pages either, hence I'm not considering this a parole violation— but I'm not going to raise a fuss if someone disagrees and extends/indefs the block. — Coren  16:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks; I appreciate the action. I still think it's worth keeping this thread open to gather opinions on whether a full community ban is warranted. Seven previous blocks have failed to solve the problem. – Steel 16:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not marking this resolved yet. — Coren  16:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm fully prepared to indef this. Edits like demonstrate that, in addition to edit warring and incivility, there is also a blatant failure of even trying to reach something like neutrality. This is the hallmark of an inveterate tendentious editor and POV-pusher. We ought to be banning such people far quicker and with far less prior fuss. Failure to strive for NPOV is the true bannable offense here and the true cause of all the disruption. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. – Steel 17:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I can not support blocking someone because of how they treat their own talk page, no matter as a regular 3RR complaint or as a 1RR parole violation. 3RR/1RR certainly applies if the editor is editing someone else's user talk page, and it clearly applies to all other namespaces -- but not the user's own talk page. Regarding the rest of the allegations of poor behavior, I will have to look at them later. Note, however, that there are at least 5 edit warring editors on Dalmatia issues, they appear to work in groups, and only two of them are currently under Arbcom sanction. Thatcher131 17:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Then the solution is to ban the others too, not to let this one loose again. Arbcom sanctions or no Arbcom sanctions. If G.G.'s behaviour, as far as I've seen it, is in some way representative of "normal" standards of behaviour in that domain, then the domain needs a good thorough purge. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Where does Giovanni's own user talk page factor into this? No-one has even mentioned it. – Steel 17:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify: The 3RR violation was on Talk:Birth Place of Marco Polo, right? Some of the other incivil edit summaries were on his own talkk; the edit warring there isn't really the issue. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:21, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

That's (Talk:Birth Place of Marco Polo) is why I blocked him. The duration, however, was increased to one week rather than the more typical day because of the general incivility and the previous 3RR blocks. — Coren  17:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Err, yes you're right. Removing posts from his own talk page is fine, but incivility there is not. – Steel 17:25, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

And the inappropriate edit cited by Fut.Perf. was on the Jakov Mikalja article, not their own user talk page. — Satori Son 17:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I missed that he was reverting article talk pages. Comes of responding to messages in the middle of an experiment. Article talk pages are definitely covered by the 1RR parole (as would be policy pages, images, etc.) Thatcher131 17:58, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay then, if there are no other objections, I'm going ahead and extending the block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

David Mader Article

Dont know if this is the how process works but I am looking for advice on an article I am having trouble on the David Mader article with an editor who is using two accounts. I have placed citation tags on this article and the editor Fansnofans 1983 who is also ip 62.199.135.50 which can be proved here keeps putting in spurious references which are in Danish. I have removed refs as per WP:RSUE not sure if I was correct on that assumption surely on English Misplaced Pages refs should be WP:V which I cant do as I dont speak Danish, what is procedure regarding non-English refs. I think it is a vanity piece. Editor has even denied being David Mader without even being suspected, thanks in advance for your help. BigDunc 16:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You may want to post a note at WP:BLP/N. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Will do thanks. BigDunc 17:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The policy you cite has detailed discussion of how to handle non-English references, at WP:V#Non-English sources, which says they're allowed if there isn't an equivalent English reference. The fact that you don't speak Danish doesn't make the reference spurious. The reference would be unverifiable if no-one spoke Danish, but lots of people do. Of course it should be checked, particularly if suspect them - the correct place to do that is either at the talk page of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Denmark or someone in Category:User da. I don't understand why you are removing Danish language references when the policy says that, in some circumstances, they're okay, and you've not taken obvious steps to check that they are okay. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 17:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thats why I asked thanks for that but one ref was a PDF document and another looked like a scanned page out of a magazine. But will go to places you have suggested. BigDunc 17:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This singer does not appear to meet the notability requirements of WP:MUSIC. Suggest you try WP:PROD and then take it to AfD if it is contested. Challenging the article's notability is less bothersome than having to sort out any issues of editor misbehavior or foreign language references, which are much less clear-cut and are harder to resolve. EdJohnston 18:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A few obvious socks that could use blocking

Already blocked

• Paradocks (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks6 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks9 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks10 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Still around adding nonsense or as sleepers

• Paradocks11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• Paradocks14 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Other than the obvious name similarities, Paradocks11 also appears to have the same fascination as Paradocks8 with Kermit the Frog. I can't see the majority of Paradocks13's edits, but his talk page would suggest none have been helpful. As far as I can tell, Paradocks14 has done nothing yet, but I would expect that the name alone would be enough of a link. --Onorem♠Dil 17:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Having multiple accounts is not a blockable offense. Disruption is. `'Míkka>t 17:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This seems like a worthwhile edit.

This is another gem.

Obvious socks of obvious sockpuppeteers that blatantly vandalize are being disruptive. --Onorem♠Dil 17:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that having over 10 "alternate accounts" is disruptive in itself. — Coren  18:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Roadcrusher Socks

CheckUser confirms two new socks of Roadcrusher, who often uploads copyvios. Since Roadcrusher had previously been blocked for socks, I advise blocking socks User talk:Bothtones7 and User talk:Soondesk6 and requesting that Roadcrusher go back to using his original account.

Because there was a notable break in time between the last block of a suspected Roadcrusher sock and the addition of these socks (which can be considered a time out, I suppose), and that Soondesk6 has shown to be less rampant with the copyvios than previous socks, I am not opposed to lighter measures than blanket blocking, but I leave final decision to admins' discretion. Kelvinc 19:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

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