This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Slrubenstein (talk | contribs) at 03:05, 19 December 2007 (→ethnicity, kinship, and Boas: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 03:05, 19 December 2007 by Slrubenstein (talk | contribs) (→ethnicity, kinship, and Boas: new section)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)Welcome/Bienvenue/Benvenuto to my talk page, say whatever you want as long as it is fairly clean and in English, French, Italian or Napoletano.
My Italian is now at a near-native level and my proficiency in Napoletano dialect (Abruzzese, a dialect of Napoletano, is my family's dialect) has also significantly increased. I am also currently learning, albeit very slowly, the basics of Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig) and Frisian (the most closely related modern language to English), but avoid speaking anything other than the five above.
Archives:
3RR
Please take note that apart from pure and simple vandalism, there is no excuse whatsoever for breaking the 3RR rule. Now, I won't go and report you to WP:AN/3RR, but I need you to stop this edit warring right now, or then I will have no choice but to report you.--Ramdrake 14:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I did not want SLR, because I know that he knows, and he will stop. Now, I have no choice but to report you.--Ramdrake 14:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest you count my reverts, as I didn't violate 3RR. I stopped at 3.--Ramdrake 14:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- I would also suggest that, when you come back to the article, you drop the "I'm right and you're wrong" attitude towards the edits and views of others. This attitude is likely to bring you opposition to your views you wouldn't otherwise encounter. Please consider that others may hold views contrary to your perfectly on good faith, and that Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth. Nobody cares about who's right or wrong concerning any one debate; the only important thing is that all points of views are represented accurately.--Ramdrake 16:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- The "'I'm right and you're wrong attitude' towards the edits and views of others" ? What are you talking about ? I have persisted for the most neutral and verifiable version of the article, which has not been supported by Slrubenstein and (possibly) to your yourself. "Misplaced Pages is about verifiability, not truth", indeed it is and that has been the primary basis behind the recent edit conflicts in this article, but Slrubensten refuses to admit that and continues to to unjustifiably "verify" his POV and OR statements in the article with sources/references which simply do not support those statements. I have exposed him on three occasions already where he misinterpreted the information to suit his POV and either re-worded or excluded the quotes/entries from the sources for this same purpose. He stubbornly continues with these futile attempts, and I have had to be persistent to counter them to keep with Wiki policy of verifiability and accurate representation of source material. Perhaps you should read some of his comments in our discussion on the Talk:Ethnic group page, with a one-word ignorant response to my clear evidence showing his POV violation as simply that I was "Wrong". You should always try to be neutral and consider both sides in these issues so you gain the whole truth the matter and learn which has the most justification. Epf 16:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
See
Please read Misplaced Pages:Tendentious editing. Thanks. Alun 17:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- From the article: "Tendentious editing is editing which is partisan, biased, skewed—in other words, it does not conform to the neutral point of view."
My edits, if you had read them, are by no means "tendentious" and are merely a compromise with and correction of Slrubenstein's version which is clearly biased and not from a neutral POV whatsoever. Thanks for your inquiry though Alun.Epf 17:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Please read the essay about tendentious editing. Obviously you have not read it. Tendentiousness refers to a pattern of editing and not to the content of the edits. You cannot defend your tendentious editing by making reference to the content of the edit, because tendentiousness is not about content. Clearly reverting six times in a single day is tendentious. Clearly "explaining" your edits, then making edits without seeking consensus is tendentious. It is not good enough for you to claim "I am right and everyone else is wrong", it is not good enough to post on a (user) talk page to "explain" your edit, and then edit war, this is not how Misplaced Pages works, and you will only get yourself blocked. Talk pages do not exist so you can bully or dictate, they exist for you to discuss solutions, it is not a discussion to simply give your reasons, you need to address the concerns of other editors. Clearly your current pattern of behaviour is only leading to edit warring. You cannot dictate what goes into an article, you can only debate with others and come to a consensus version, whether you like it or not, you do not have the authority. You have engaged in this sort of edit warring in the past, it is clearly a pattern of behaviour with you. You need to accept that other points of view exist and that you cannot dismiss them simply because you disagree with them. Alun 05:36, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
- You are correct Alun, and my history of this is no more than yours or many other users. However, I always partake in discussion to settle on a consensus as you know. These edits of mine were made under the reasoning of Misplaced Pages guidelines such as Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view and Misplaced Pages:No original research. If you read the discussions, the edit history of Slrubenstien in that article as well as his specific entries into the article, you hopefully will see my point here and most users would agree with me. You are correct though in that I shouldn't have been dragged into the edit war myself and instead should of maintained the "moral high ground" if you will. What caused me to incorrectly disregard this was the behaviour of Ramdrake which clearly showed bias in favour of himself and the other user, re-verting my much more neutral, verifiable version to the other and then lay the sole blame for the edit warring and tendentious edits on me, when this simply was not the case. In addition Alun, I did read the article on tendentious editing and I quoted directly from the article the type of edits which entail such editing. The matter has been let go for the time being and the article still cant be fully or partially re-verted for at least another 7-8 hours, so we'll have to be content with that. Ciao. Epf 07:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
- I would suggest you'd ask yourself why your much more neutral version has been rather systematically reverted. I would dare say that it is because other editors have seen reasons to object to this version, and you have been steadfast in your refusal to address their concerns. The way Misplaced Pages works is by consensus; that means that even if you think you're right and everybody else is wrong, you must still strive for a version that will be satisfactory to all editors. As Alun said above, you just cannot impose your version, no matter what. I would suggest you take heed of this.--Ramdrake 12:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
- Clearly you have some bias against my version which is obviously a supported and neutral version. You are simply ignoring the other user's much more POV edit. Epf 23:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I'm pointing out that your version isn't suppported by any other editors, as far as I've seen. Everybody's trying to tell you that, contrary to your belief, you are the one who's wrong, not everybody else. Please take heed.--Ramdrake 21:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- No, only you and one other editor are not supporting my edits. You are the one who is accusing me of being "wrong", and I don't know what you mean by this anyway, we both have different opinions and facts on the issue. Clearly the other version contains much more POV and only you and Rubenstein dispute this (that adds up to TWO users). Stop POV pushing and making false accusations to cover up your bias. I plan on reporting both of you if this persists. Epf 01:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
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WikiProject U2 November Newsletter
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Out of order
You are seriously out of order. I specifically went and looked for references to support my edits to the Franz Boas article. You will note that I did not revert you systematically, I merely added references to those sections that were disputed. The supporting reference to "father of anthropology" was easy. But the reference to "not identifying as Jewish" was more difficult. But I did find a reference to it, and guess what? It just happened to be a reference that already existed in the article, so I just re-attributed it. There was nothing wrong with my attribution. Please don't remove verified info from Misplaced Pages in the future, especially material you clearly have not read. Alun 23:53, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yet you did not specify a page or details about where you found the reference. Also, if you did find a piece of text where he supposedly admitted such, then why did you not enter it into the article ? There is nothing supporting your claim here. In addition, he is considered by some to be the father of American anthropology, but it is a dubious title. Epf (talk) 19:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
ethnicity, kinship, and Boas
I am willing to stop all insults if you are willing to (1) assume that I act in good faith and (2) assume that I believe I am complying with policies and (2) assume that I have done at least a reasonable amount of research on these topics.
I will not revert your addition ot the ethnic group link to the kinship and descent article, nor of a kinship and descent link to the ethnic group article.
But why can't you believe me when I say that Cole states that Boas did not identify himself as a Jew? What I jost wrote is a paraphrase that is so close to what Cole wrote that there is not point in my providing a direct quote. But the way I see it, it does not matter: if you do not assume good faith, I can quote Cole and you will accuse me of inventing the quote. If you do assume good faith, I do not need to provide a direct quote. either way there is no point in my providing a direct quote. You either believe me or you don't. If you don't believe me you will just accuse me of fabricating the quote. But I ask you to ask yourself seriously: why is it that you doubt me when I provide a full citation with the author's name, book title, and page number?
As for Ethnic Group, I believe I responded fully to every point you made on the talk page. If I stopped commenting it is because I was satisfied that I fully responded to all of your objections, and fully explained myself. To continue to comment would only be to repeat myself. I see two differences between our versions.
First, you wrote, "The international meeting on the Challenges of Measuring an Ethnic World (Ottawa, Canada, 1992) noted that: "Ethnicity is a fundamental factor in human life: it is a phenomenon inherent in human experience." I wrote, According to some, "Ethnicity is a fundamental factor in human life: it is a phenomenon inherent in human experience." I do not see how you can accuse me of violating NPOV, or of misquoting, or misinterpreting the quote, which are all things you have accused me of. Since I simply see no evidence for these charges I find it silly to try to respond to them - you may as well demand that I prove that I did not kill my wife. The only differences have nothing to do with the content or meaning of the quote. I add the words "According to some" and this to me is utterly non-controversial: it is a fact that some do hold this view. The next sentence uses the word "others" and for me it is simply good style to use the form "some say x but others say y i.e. if the next sentence says others, the first one should say some. This does not misrepresent, nor does it violate NPOV. The other difference is I leave the source in the reference. Again, there is no misquotation or misrepresentation and no violation of NPOV. It is just consistent style: two major views are presented, and the sources for both are in the citations. This is consistent. To name the source for one in the sentence, and leave the source for the other in the citation, is simply inconsistent and poor style. And it makes sense to put the sources in the citations because these are views shared by many others besides the specific sources. If we name the sources in the sentences themselves, readers may think that only these sources have these views. But this is not the case. In fact, others hold these views; the sources we provide are perhaps exemplary, but examples of people or groups that hold these views. I explained this already, and I still see no misquotation or misinterpretation or violation of NPOV.
Second, your version goes on to say "Other researchers have also stated" where as my version says "Others, however," I feel very strongly that my version complies with NPOV and yours does not. NPOV insists that we present all notable views. People are divided over their understanding of ethnic group, and we need to present alternate views. Saying "Some believe x. others, however, believe y" does just this. Your version implies that the "others" accept the Ottawa statement, but believe something else in addition. This implies that all people agree with the Ottawa statement. This is simply not true. You have to get over your belief that all people in the universe agree with you. You have to learn to accept views you do not agree with. I frankly find it appalling that you accuse me of pushing a POV when I have accepted the inclusion of the view you inserted, while it is you who seem to refuse to accept any other view. So here we have two people: one who accepts only one view, and another who accepts competing views. Do you really think the first person is faithful to NPOV and the second is violating it? Think hard about this. And if you believe I am misrepresenting Friedlander, Wolf, Sider, and others I have cited, like Cohen and Vincent, all I can say is, no, you are wrong. You just have to assume good faith and accept the possibility that somone other than yourself may actually know something.
Now at the very least I hoipe you will stop all this pretense that you have explained yourself and I refuse to respond to you. I have responded to your accusations and I have explained my edits. I have explained why I believe that your version violates NPOV. I have explained why I believe my version complies with NPOV. As for the interpretation of the sources, Wolf most definitely does not believe that ethnicity is universal, let alone rooted in anything biological, or kinship, and I cited several others who likewise reject this view of ethnicity. You seem passionately opposed to this view of ethnicity but if you really believe every social scientist thinks the way you do, you need to seriously reexamine your view of yourself and the world. It is narcisistic to believe that everyone in the world must think the way you do. Are you utterly incapable of conceiving of the possibility that there are social scientists who do not think the way you do?
If you can accept that I am acting in good faith, seeking to comply with NPOV, and to represent the sources I add accurately, I will reciprocate in kind. Slrubenstein | Talk 03:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)