Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Wyss (talk | contribs) at 10:36, 2 July 2005 (→Peer review required). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

By whom, exactly, was his homosexuality unacknowledged? Exploding Boy 08:31, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

I reverted unfounded statements and outright fabrication by an anonymous user who also has attempted similar distortions to the article on David Bret. Ted Wilkes 17:28, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My statements in the article are not "unfounded." For lists of famous gay people including Nick Adams, see, for instance, http://www.umsl.edu/~pope/famous.html or http://www.youthfirsttexas.org/famous_gay_people.html - User: 80.141.239.139

For Natalie Wood and the gay men in Hollywood, including Nick Adams, see Gavin Lambert, Natalie Wood: A Life. http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn_308/recliminganactress.html http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_2004_March_16/ai_n6023733 - User:80.141.253.91

In Hollywood Gays, author Boze Hadleigh writes that the diminutive yet reputedly well-hung actor Nick Adams may have "hustled while looking for acting jobs in the 1950s." See http://www.weekender.co.jp/new/021206/behind_the_scenes-021206.html - User: 80.141.191.66

It is also suggested that Adams's friend James Dean was gay. See http://www.q.co.za/2001/2002/09/20-pastout.html - User:80.141.239.139

This article has been placed on Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection. Ted Wilkes 21:29, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See comments about Nick Adams and Elvis Presley on Talk:Elvis Presley and Talk:David Bret. Ted Wilkes 23:22, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please note that this ANONYMOUS user's only contributions to the Misplaced Pages are edits to Elvis Presley, David Bret and Nick Adams plus contraventions to Misplaced Pages official policy with repeated comments placed into Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection. I have made a request for Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Ted Wilkes 20:31, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry. Adding some comment on such a page is not vandalism. But constantly deleting these comments, as you did, IS vandalism. - User:80.141.205.108

For Ed Poor, Misplaced Pages:Administrator and Mediation Committee member.

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. (hereinafter sometimes respectfully referred to as "it" or "its" or "they" because of unknown gender) has deliberately inserted misinformation into this Nick Adams article and this Talk page in order to support their disinformation campaign in the David Bret article so as to ultimately give credence to their misinformation and distortions in their target: the Elvis Presley article. In the Presley article USER: 80.141.etc.etc. refused to allow other attempts to edit their misinformation and reverted several Users 22 times including deleting the Automatic Section information (/* Relationships */) on the "Edit Summary" so that it might go undetected or raise a flag on the "Recent Changes" board. All this took place before I (User:Ted Wilkes got involved and who was then reverted by USER: 80.141.etc.etc. 25 more times.

Sorry. You are the only person saying that what I have contributed to the article is misinformation. Everybody can see that it is not misinformation as I have cited my sources. See above. – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

In the Nick Adams stub article I expanded it with basic biographical information plus the following statement:

• He married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children.

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. made edits to this single line by adding deliberate misinformation, an act that constitutes vandalism in accordance with Misplaced Pages:Vandalism.

Sorry. What's wrong with adding some additional facts, for example, that most people in Hollywood knew that Adams was gay. This is relevant information which has repeatedly been deleted by user Ted Wilkes. For sources proving this fact, see above. – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

Further, this user (here and in the other two connected articles) not only inserts fabrications but also makes edits and other sensible-appearing substitutions that too is described as vanadalism in Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. And, even when challenged, they repeatedly contravene Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines that requires a contributor to Misplaced Pages:Check your facts and to quote Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources.

You are the only person who thinks that this is vandalism. The fact is that there is an edit war going on and you are deeply involved in this war. – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

Note that the edits of USER: 80.141.etc.etc. detailed below show that when their deliberate fabrication is firmly reverted, they then reword it all the while continuing to use disinformation tactics. Reversing your own deliberate falsehood is an admission of vandalism.

Note that including additional information is not vandalism. You frequently deleted this information and I reinstalled it. – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

First edit by USER: 80.141.etc.etc.:

• 17:17, 1 Jun 2005 80.141.197.237 –
  • Though Adams married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children, he regularly appears in lists of famous gay people. Before he got into acting, Adams was known as a "Hollywood hustler" who had a reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town. Lesbian actress Natalie Wood says that she dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray. Elvis Presley too romanced young Nick. After his "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean The King is said to have seen Rebel Without a Cause some 44 times and ultimately had an affair with Adams who was the roommate of Dean.

I (User:Ted Wilkes) reverted these fabricated assertions.

Note that I have included relevant additional information. See sources quoted above. – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. then reverted me. . But, knowing they had been caught vandalizing an article, they reworded it slightly to remove the fabrication: "Lesbian actress Natalie Wood" TO state that "Actress Natalie Wood says that she dated gay men." However, even with the reversal of the falsehood, where is the Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources and supporting facts that she said she dated gay men? And, despite admitting he had lied about Natalie Wood being a lesbian, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. still kept their fabrication about Nick Adams and Elvis Presley in their text. This is the "wear them down" tactic that they have successfully used over and over with others who objected to false and unfounded claims on the Presley page, doing it so many times that the other users eventually gave up. Here is USER: 80.141.etc.etc. revised text:

• USER: 80.141.etc.etc. - revised text: 17:34, 1 Jun 2005 80.141.235.94 -
  • Though Adams married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children, he regularly appears in lists of famous gay people. Before he got into acting, Adams was known as a "Hollywood hustler" who had a reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town. Actress Natalie Wood says that she dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray. Elvis Presley too romanced young Nick. After his "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean The King is said to have seen Rebel Without a Cause some 44 times and ultimately had an affair with Adams who was the roommate of Dean.

There are indeed some accusations that Natalie Wood may have been bisexual because of her contacts to many Hollywood gays, but this is only hearsay. Therefore I have revised the text. User:80.141.197.99

Note User:80.141.197.99's diversionary tactic in the words in the first line, an irrelevant sentence telling us they don't quote hearsay! The "revised text" was done after they were caught, and their revision was to remove their absolute falsehood from the article where they said: "Lesbian actress Natalie Wood says that she dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray." Ted Wilkes 11:04, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In his review of Gavin Lambert's Natalie Wood: A Life in The Advocate (2004), David Ehrenstein (author of Open secret: gay Hollywood, 1928-1998) writes, "And this in turn brings up the gay angle, for besides Nicholas Ray, Natalie Wood was the "Grace" to an army of Hollywood "Wills," including James Dean, Tab Hunter, Nick Adams, Scott Marlowe, and Raymond Burr. ... she ... preferring to do her part for gay history by supporting Mart Crowley in a manner that made it possible for him to write his seminal The Boys in the Band. He had planned to do something for her by adapting Dorothy Baker's novel about twin sisters. Cassandra at the Wedding, for the screen. But Hollywood wasn't ready for twin Natalie Woods--one of whom would have been a lesbian." – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

I (User:Ted Wilkes) reverted these continued fabricated assertions.

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. reverted me again but knowing they had to do something about the fabrications, they reworded it a second time to remove the fabrication: "Elvis Presley too romanced young Nick", changing it TO: "There is also the claim that Elvis Presley romanced young Nick." This is the second admission of a fabrication and the second act of Misplaced Pages:Vandalism. But once again USER: 80.141.etc.etc. doesn't tell us who it is that makes such a claim and continue with their "wear them down" tactic and keep most of the unfounded text. Here is their next revision:

• USER: 80.141.etc.etc. - revised text: (21:39, 1 Jun 2005 80.141.193.103) -
  • Though Adams married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children, he regularly appears in lists of famous gay people. Before he got into acting, Adams was known as a "Hollywood hustler" who had a reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town. Actress Natalie Wood frequently dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray. There is also the claim that Elvis Presley romanced young Nick. After his "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean The King is said to have seen Rebel Without a Cause some 44 times and ultimately had an affair with Adams who was the roommate of Dean.

I (User:Ted Wilkes) reverted these continued fabricated assertions. After five reverts by USER: 80.141.etc.etc. I then posted the following notice into the article: Note: This article has now been placed in: Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection.

As part of the tactics to turn the tables on anyone who reverts their fabrications and as a continuation of the "wear them down" tactic, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. comes to this Talk Page (and they did it elsewhere to others) and inserts meaningless comments and/or cites Internet articles that do not even come close to meeting Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources policy.

I have quoted several sources stating that Nick Adams was gay. Where are your sources which prove that Nick Adams wasn't gay? Another user has also asked at the beginning of this talk page, "By whom, exactly, was his homosexuality unacknowledged?" – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

They then revert the article repeatedly with the Edit Summary that says (See discussion) . Too, they don't identify the comments on the Talk Page as coming from them so that anyone trying to assess the information has no idea how many people are actually commenting against what the one identified user is saying about improper edits. As an example on Talk:David Bret, using the confusion they have created by lack of identity, they make it appear that reverting to their fabricated text is proper by asserting: "There are two independent statements that the other version of the article is much better."

Sorry. Everybody can see that I am the anonymous editor 80.141.xxx.xxx using a dynamic IP address. What's wrong with this fact? As for the two independent statements, see what administator DropDeadGorgias has written on the said discussion page. User:80.141.197.99 He says, "It seems to me that the old version of the page is far less POV than this current page. 1) The old version mentions the controversy surrounding Bret's finding's well enough, and 2) why did the new editors remove a perfectly fine Guardian link? I support reversion to the old version." -- 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.203.14

Note too that not only does USER: 80.141.etc.etc. not quote reliable resources, but in the David Bret article and then again on the Talk:David Bret page they stated about Presley:

• "that he was homosexual. Indeed, this accusation (by Bret's book) is proved by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, and by his platonic girlfriend Judy Spreckels."

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. reiterated this "proven fact" repeatedly including in the actual Presley article stating unequivocally that proof is in a book by Dee Presley called The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis. But before discussing the merits of "proof " from any such book by Dee Presley, we need first to Misplaced Pages:Check your facts and determine that such a book exists so that it can be examined for its veracity. So, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. can first provide the ISBN number for The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis, the publishing house name, and the dated this supposed book was published. Misplaced Pages articles do not assert that rumors by someone who reported she at some point in time told a tabloid she was writing such a book and the tabloid quoted supposed excerpts from the purported manuscript that was then passed around as being part of her "new book." But, with the ISBN number as External link, anyone can buy this supposed book if they want.

In my opinion, this is your first relevant contribution to this discussion page. I don't know whether this book has been published or not. All I know is that the Madison Entertainment Group, Inc., a subsidiary of Madison Group Associates, Inc., a now defunct company formerly based in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, once acquired the worldwide rights to "The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis Presley," a "very private and revealing" manuscript documenting "never-before-released accounts" of Elvis's life. So it is clear that a manuscript of the book exists. But I don't think that it is of much importance if you are right that the book has not yet been published, as the manuscript exists and seems to have circulated in many copies. More important is that it was written by Devada "Dee" Presley, Elvis' stepmother who lived at Graceland with Elvis for over ten years. There is a short summary of her accusations in an article written by Dee Presley for the National Enquirer. The new facts she presents have been discussed by other authors, for instance, Greil Marcus, in the book, Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternatives (2000).

As to the second part of the so-called "proof" from Judy Spreckels, see below the details on the "fraudulently doctored text" inserted by USER: 80.141.etc.etc.

The diversionary tactics of USER: 80.141.etc.etc. continued following my posting the notice Misplaced Pages:Requests for page protection with them going to that page and in contravention of Misplaced Pages policy, used the page to attack my credibility. As a result, I (User:Ted Wilkes) was the one blocked from editing and USER: 80.141.etc.etc., having been given a free license, immediately headed to the Elvis Presley article and added a great more misleading information to enhance their existing deception . When User:Equintan attempted to remove just a tiny portion of the misinformation, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. started the same reverting tactics again. A discouraged User:Equintan gave up trying to do what was right. Was it not Misplaced Pages co-founder User:Larry Sanger who has publicly stated: "if you react strongly to trolling, that reflects poorly on you, not (necessarily) on the troll. If you attempt to take trolls to task or demand that something be done about constant disruption by trollish behavior, the other list members will cry "censorship," attack you, and even come to the defense of the troll."

Did you read what I have written on the related discussion page? – 80.141.xxx.xxx User:80.141.197.99

While Mr. Sanger has a point, one of the problems in dealing with people such as USER: 80.141.etc.etc. is that they overpower the talk page to the point where any other Wiki User trying to bring peace cannot be expected to read and analyze the massive writings and as such cannot deal with the issue properly.

On just this small Nick Adams article alone, after inserting their fabrications, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. did 14 more reverts. Note that their tactics succeeded in having the page protected with their fabrications and unfounded information still in place. This is how the article section currently reads as a result of the last edit by : User: 80.141.221.141. I have inserted my comments in Italics.

• Though Adams married actress Carol Nugent with whom he had two children, he regularly appears in lists of famous gay people. -- What lists? Such a statement requires reliable sources acceptable to an Encyclopedia and supported by documented facts?

For such lists including Nick Adams, see, for instance, http://www.umsl.edu/~pope/famous.html or http://www.youthfirsttexas.org/famous_gay_people.html – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

• -- Before he got into acting, Adams was known as a "Hollywood hustler" who had a reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town. -- Who specifically knew him as a Hollywood Huster and what reliable source provides proof that he was so labelled? Please explain what is meant by "pieces" and how this terminology is 1) relevant to the biography and 2) is acceptable language in Misplaced Pages.

Nick Adams is mentioned in Boze Hadleigh's book Hollywood Gays. The author writes that the diminutive yet reputedly well-hung actor Nick Adams may have "hustled while looking for acting jobs in the 1950s." I would agree to rewrite the passage relating to Adams's "reputation for having one of the biggest pieces in town". However, this information is taken from an internet source announcing the birthday of Adams. – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

• -- Actress Natalie Wood frequently dated gay men in Hollywood circles including Nick Adams and director Nicholas Ray. -- Provide proof from credible sources acceptable for an Encyclopedia that these were romantic dates and not just a friend she worked on a film with and that she spent free time with during film production and proof that the men she dated romantically were "Gay".

In his review of Natalie Wood: A Life, Brandon Judell writes, "Wood's insecurities led her later to date bisexual and gay men including director Nicholas Ray and actor Nick Adams." See http://www.gaycitynews.com/gcn_308/recliminganactress.html – 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.197.99

• -- There is also the claim that Elvis Presley romanced young Nick. -- What credible source made this claim and what proof did that source provide? -- After his "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean The King is said to have seen Rebel Without a Cause some 44 times and ultimately had an affair with Adams who was the roommate of Dean. -- Who said it? And, are they a credible source and what proof was provided that The King (assume this refers to Elvis Presley) had a "teenage crush" on movie star James Dean and that "The King" had an affair with Adams.

This has been written by David Bret in his book, Elvis: The Hollywood Years, an author you are constantly casting aspersions on. See Talk:David Bret

Beyond all of the above, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. fabricated information and inserted "fraudulently doctored text" into the David Bret article as follows:

• Revision to David Bret article as of 21:14, 26 Apr 2005 80.141.206.211
  • Judy Spreckels, who was like a sister to Elvis, a companion, confidante and keeper of secrets in the early days of his career, also remembers going out with Elvis and his boyfriend Nick Adams.

• Please note what the article actually states as to what Ms. Speckels said on the website:
  • - "In Los Angeles, where Elvis made movies, Judy remembers going out on a Sunday with him and his friend, actor Nick Adams."

• (More comments on the disnformation in the Elvis Presley article by USER: 80.141.etc.etc. to follow shortly with User:Ted Wilkes comments to be placed on the Presley talk page.)

USER: 80.141.etc.etc. represents the most dangerous sort of vandal whose actions provide Encyclopedia Britannica and other legitimate information sources with the precise ammunition needed to condemn Misplaced Pages as unreliable and show its inability to monitor itself properly. They have wasted the time honorable contributors would normally devote to creating good articles and doing valuable editing. These people can't get a legitimate platform anywhere else so they come to Misplaced Pages to push their agenda. They are here on a mission, and as seen on this small article they will make dozens of reverts and write endless words on the talk page as well as con others into believing that they are legitimate.

Signed and certified as factual: Ted Wilkes 00:13, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

NOTE: USER: 80.141.etc.etc. continues with their tactics "wear them down" tactics by masive insertions of text into my statement of facts which is nothing but ramblings and with zero defense of their vandalism and "fraudulently doctored text". Note that like before, when caught in a lie, USER: 80.141.etc.etc. changed their fabricated text about Dee Presley's book on the David Bret talk page that they asserted had the title The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis. They stated that the book was "proof":

From: Talk:David Bret :

• this accusation is proved by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley, and by his platonic girlfriend Judy Spreckels. In her book The Intimate Life and Death of Elvis Dee Presley says that Elvis had sexual encounters with men and that he had an affair with Nick Adams.

After I (User:Ted Wilkes) called them on their fraud by asking for the ISBN number, they admit it doesn't exist but have now "introduced" a new "proof" they call a manuscript. Give me a break!

Sorry. I didn't know that the book may not yet have been published, as it was mentioned in several articles and in Greil Marcus's book, Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternatives (2000). Here is the source which proves that a manuscript written by Dee Presley exists: http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?DOCID=1G1:16884628 I think it is of little importance whether the book has been published or not. More important is that most Elvis fan clubs condemned the accusations to be found in it, although it was written by Elvis's stepmother, Dee Presley. See also Talk:Elvis Presley. To my mind, it is to be supposed that Ted Wilkes may be one of those people writing in the vein of the worldwide Elvis industry which has a tendency toward supporting only a 'favorable' view of Elvis and therefore tries to suppress the opinion that Elvis may have been bisexual or gay. This would explain why he is constantly accusing me of "vandalism", "deliberate misinformation", "outright fabrication", etc. -- 80.141.xxx.xxx - User:80.141.179.168

Please note, I will refrain from further comments on this page pending insertion of my other facts on this matter on the David Bret and Elvis Presley talk pages and then will wait for the review by the Misplaced Pages:Mediators. Ted Wilkes 15:35, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't help but insert another comment even though it aids their "wear them down" and overwhelm them with writings tactic. What we have here is another admission of a lie by Anonymous' who knew all along no book was ever published and after being caught fabricates a second lie that a maunscript says what he claimed was in a book. The link our anonymous user inserted to prove such a manuscript exists is a great joke. Look at it! Just how stupid does this person think Wikipedians are? This link to the PR Newswire is a 1995 story. In the ten years since, no such book was ever published and its contents are unknown. 99.9% of all the Elvis books claim astonishing new information never before revealed. Yeah, right. But User:80.141.179.168 first inserted his outright falsehood that the book existed and that it was proof Elvis was gay. Caught in their lie, they then asserted this so-called manuscript was proof. And now they claim that book publishers revealed the content to Elvis fans before they published it? What utter nonsense. Repeated lies and distortions go nowhere at Misplaced Pages, they just dig a deeper hole. Ted Wilkes 17:57, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry. Did you mention that there are newspaper articles summarizing the new facts included in Dee Presley's book? The contents of the manuscript are well known and the details were even discussed by several members of the world wide Elvis fan clubs. Information from the manuscript was also used for Greil Marcus's book, Double Trouble: Bill Clinton and Elvis Presley in a Land of No Alternatives (2000). David S. Wall has also written an article in which he states that Dee Presley "wrote a supposedly whistle blowing account of Elvis’s last years" and that "The fan clubs refused to endorse the book and condemned it in their editorials". So it is of little importance whether the book has been published or not. You cannot deny that the manuscript exists and its content is known. Don't call me a liar! 80.141.193.106 18:35, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nick, do you still want my help? If so, let me know. -- Uncle Ed (talk) 19:13, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)

Ed Poor: Your help is greatly appreciated and I look forward to your report on the matter. Ted Wilkes 15:03, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

{{disambig}}

Can I remove it? It's not a disambiguation page after all. -- User:Docu

The following information should be added to the article

- the names of his children: Allyson Lee Adams, born in 1960, and Jeb Stewart Adams, 1962.

- his divorce from actress Carol Nugent. Adams won the case, since it was proved that his wife had an affair with another man.

- that Adams lived a reckless life and was arrested for speeding nine times in one year. He was placed on probation, but the larger studios ignored the young actor.

Removed tag

I've tried to resolve this by presenting the information in a more encyclopedic manner. Never mind the controversy, let readers and viewers of his movies decide as they wish. Wyss 29 June 2005 10:21 (UTC)

Stabilizing?

I'm pleased with the article now and only tweaked the most recent edits for syntax and pitchy adjectives (understandable when someone edits with strong belief in a PoV, but not encyclopedic). There is no documented evidence Nick Adams was gay (but mentioning kiss-and-tell gossip books is acceptable as long as the context is clear). I must say that the logic of the Natalie Wood assertion is amazingly weak... should one therefore infer that any male she hung out with was gay? (I only put it that way to make a point) The Elvis rumour is ok to note as a rumour, the "Hollywood hustler"/"pool hustler" thing works as interesting trivia and regardless of one's interpretation, communicates a bit of insight into his character. Wyss 30 June 2005 04:42 (UTC)

Sorry, the book Hollywood Gays (mentioned in the article) which states that Adams was gay is based on interviews with gay Hollywood stars. So it is based on primary sources. I don't think that the Natalie Wood assertion is amazingly weak, as she was primarily interested in Hollywood's gay scene. 80.141.219.175 30 June 2005 22:39 (UTC)

Sorry, none of your edits are supported by documented evidence cited in peer-reviewed, secondary sources (please see the next section). Wyss 1 July 2005 10:19 (UTC)

Gavin Lambert, a reputed biographer who also coedited the film magazine Sequence with Lindsay Anderson, edited Sight and Sound and wrote film criticism for The Sunday Times and The Guardian, has known Nathalie Wood and Robert Wagner for 40 years. His book, Natalie Wood: A Life includes interviews with the people who knew Wood best, for instance, Robert Wagner, Warren Beatty, Paul Mazursky, and Leslie Caron. The author writes about the sexual dalliances of the actors and their friends, both gay and straight, and clearly says that Wood frequently dated gay men in Hollywood including director Nicholas Ray and actors Nick Adams, Raymond Burr, James Dean, Tab Hunter and Scott Marlowe. There are further statements by biographer David Bret and Elvis Presley's stepmother, Dee Presley, that Elvis had an affair with Nick Adams. As several other sources prove, the whole gay scene of Hollywood seems to have known that Nick Adams was gay. Therefore, I have reinstated a revised version of the deleted passage. 80.141.214.158 1 July 2005 22:32 (UTC)

Peer review required

• Misplaced Pages doesn't build articles from primary sources, but from peer reviewed secondary sources: Hollywood Gays is a secondary source lacking in scholarly Peer review. Most reviewers bluntly accuse Hadleigh of inventing much of his material and the book is not accepted as credible history. Citations from it don't qualify for this article.

Are you sure? Here are some reviews of Hadleigh's book:

"A series of 10 interviews with dramatic actors, romantic heros, comedians, and performers, three of whom died of AIDS; all prominent in the Hollywood/entertainment scene. The interviews are by turns frank, and depending on the comfort level of the interviewee, evasive and suggestive. Prominent features of the interviews include Hollywood's various constructions of masculinity, efforts to mask gay realities, studio response to homosexuality, and discussion of gay relationships. Many interviews include commentary on Hollywood figures not themselves in this collection. Each interview is preceded by a biographical sketch including relationship information and usually comments by friends and acquaintances. Index to persons mentioned in the interviews concludes the work." (Gays and Lesbians: Reference and Bibliographical Resources Annotated")

That's not a review, that's an ad. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)

"In this collection of interviews, each preceded by a chatty introduction, that Hadleigh has conducted over the years with 10 Hollywood stars, the author continues his probing of the ever-popular topic of the sexual proclivities of Hollywood actors. There's nothing very surprising about his choice of subjects--Paul Lynde, Liberace, Randolph Scott, et al.--all of whom, conveniently for legal purposes, are deceased. And though hearing about these stars in their own words often proves entertaining, most of the book's gay readership will find little here they haven't heard before. Two exceptions are the touching interview with producer David Lewis, who talks freely about his longtime companion, James Whale (director of the classic 1931 Frankenstein and of The Invisible Man), who committed suicide in 1957; and the talk with William Haines, whose career was destroyed by Louis B. Mayer after he was caught with another man in his cot at a YMCA. The book's style is suitably straightforward, though Hadleigh's banter often verges on the cute or leering. Readers will find much cocktail-party repartee here and will relish the references to other stars of dubious sexual orientation." (Publishers Weekly)

Hadleigh's been accused of making up most of those "interviews".Wyss 2 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)

"Hadleigh ... seeks to provide firsthand reports. An entertainment journalist since the 1960s, he conducted volumes of off-the-record interviews with celebrities reputed to be gay or bisexual such as Cary Grant, Paul Lynde, and Anthony Perkins, as well as less well-remembered actors like Randolph Scott and William Haines. In these interviews, often given only with the understanding that they would not be published during the star's life, Hadleigh attempts to get normally secretive actors to speak about their sexual lives. .... Cary Grant and Anthony Perkins ... proffer revelations about co-workers and peers. Like his earlier volumes Conversations with My Elders (St. Martin's, 1988) and Lesbians in Hollywood (Baricade, 1994), Hadleigh's work is somewhat suspect. He claims that for most of these interviews, he was not allowed to tape record or take notes, and frequently the questions seem stiltedly reconstructed. Still, the interviews are highly entertaining and provide an important, mostly undocumented view of the film industry's social history. Recommended for both general readers looking for dish and scholars of gay history and film studies." (Library Journal)

"Boze Hadleigh has been publishing gossipy books about gay celebrity and cinema for nearly two decades. Two of his best-known books, Hollywood Gays and Hollywood Lesbians are collections of his interviews with gay and bisexual stars in which they basically out themselves and others in their circle. Some have questioned the accuracy of his printed transcripts, but there's no denying they're impossible to put down..." (Gay & Lesbian Review Worldwide)

Note that this one questions the veracity of the interviews. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)

Last not least, here is an excerpt from the book: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/7537/gay.htm

80.141.188.51 2 July 2005 01:55 (UTC)

Significantly, User:Wyss has again deleted my contributions to the articles on Nick Adams and Natalie Wood without discussing the additional sources I have quoted. His only argument seems to be that reviews in Publishers Weekly, the Library Journal and other journals are no peer-reviewed sources and not in accordance with WP policy. 80.141.226.214 2 July 2005 09:43 (UTC)

Significantly? Sigh. The issue here is Hollywood Gays, which is not a reliable source of anything. Those "reviews" are blurbs. The actual reviews are uniformly horrid. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:29 (UTC)

Therefore, I have deleted all content in the article derived from non-peer reviewed publications, in accordance with WP policy.

Because widespread rumours do affect the legacy of a public figure, I have retained a summary of them as such in a Rumours section.

None of this has anything to do with "defending" Adams. For all I know, rumours of gay liaisons with Elvis Presley may have generated more interest in his filmed work and had a positive effect on the value of his estate, which could be financially advantageous to his children, whom he obviously cared about. My posts here only relate to writing the article according to WP policy and encyclopedic principles. Wyss 1 July 2005 08:07 (UTC)

To clarify, I looked into the source for that Elvis rumour. It arose from a single story in the Globe tabloid, which is not a peer-reviewed historical publication. Wyss 1 July 2005 09:03 (UTC)

The source for the Elvis rumour is David Bret's book, Elvis: The Hollywood Years (2002). The Globe article only published some details from this book.

Thanks for clarifying that. Bret has a reputation for sloppy history, lack of scholarship, being obsessed with sexual topics (almost to the exclusion of other aspects of his subjects' careers and lives) and lastly, making up interviews to sell tabloid-style books to the downmarket. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:33 (UTC)

I've put some time into researching this and have found zero documented evidence to even thinly support any assertion under WP standards that Mr Adams was a homosexual, or ever demonstrated such behavior. Furthermore, all of the edits on this subject in the article seem to have been made by a single persistent anon editor. For these reasons I have deleted all references to the rumours, have placed the article on my watchlist, and will routinely delete any such references unless documented evidence cited by peer-reviewed sources emerges. Wyss 1 July 2005 09:46 (UTC)

Peer reviewed? How many peer reviewed sources are there for minor Hollywood actors? The only sources that I know of that are "peer reviewed" are academic journals and books. Misplaced Pages does not require peer reviewed sources. Misplaced Pages is dedicated to fairly summarizing with a neutral point of view whatever verifiable sources are available. Certainly unpublished manuscripts do not qualify. But printed books that are in libraries or on the internet are verifiable, secondary sources, whether peer-reviewed or not. See Misplaced Pages:sources. Cheers, -Willmcw July 1, 2005 10:20 (UTC)

You clearly haven't read that link yourself. Why didn't you bother to check it? Maybe because you're so busy as a new Misplaced Pages:Admin? Anyway the book cited by the anon has not been verified by the sort of peer review one would apply to entertainment oriented biographies and journalistic reports. Wyss 1 July 2005 11:10 (UTC)

Thanks for the (not so gentle) correction. That should have been Misplaced Pages:cite your sources. Now then can you please give some examples of "peer-reviewed" sources for information on the personal lives of minor Hollywood actors? Thanks, -Willmcw July 1, 2005 21:26 (UTC)

Hollywood Gays is not among them. Wyss 2 July 2005 08:17 (UTC)

Did you read the reviews quoted above? I have cited my sources according to the Misplaced Pages quidelines. 80.141.226.214 2 July 2005 09:43 (UTC)

The documented evidence provides overwhelming consensus that your source in this case is not reliable. Wyss 2 July 2005 10:17 (UTC)