Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zero0000 (talk | contribs) at 06:03, 29 November 2003 (non-Jewish Zionists). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

See also: Talk:Zionism/archive1, Talk:Zionism/archive2

Since this is a completely new article, I have archived the old talk.

This new article represents a month's co-operative editing between me and other interested users. Adam 12:47, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Post-Zionism is not synonmous with the neo-Canaanite movement. This article needs to clarify the fact that the term "Post-Zionism" is still loosely defined, and can include those who consciously identify as Zionists, non-Zionists, and anti-Zionists. RK 00:21, Nov 19, 2003 (UTC)

Post-Zionism's most controversial advocates are anti-Zionists, who naturally receive a lot of press, out of proportion to their influence. It also really should be noted that the neo-Canaanite movement has little following among Israelis, or among Jews worldwide. It is only accepted among those who wish to replace the State of Israel with an Arab majority, which they euphemistically call the "state of both peoples". This state will be effectively and politically ruled by an Arab Muslim majority; all sides agree that any single-state solution will soon have an Arab Muslim majority; this is not in dispute. This context is necessary to understand why most people reject the neo-Canaanite movement. Many people have publicly criticised it as a disguised form of anti-Zionism that aims at the total removal of the State of Israel and its replacement with an Arab Palestinian State, and I have seen nothing so far to refute this position. Indeed, such views are tacitly admitted by the neo-Canaanites. RK 00:21, Nov 19, 2003 (UTC)

RK, I must say that I found Zero's paragraph on post-Zionism a little unclear, but it's not an area I know much about so I didn't change it. Please feel free to suggest an alternative (btw, I did ask you to review the draft before it was posted here). Adam 01:15, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It didn't say that Postzionism was the same as the (neo-|NULL)Canaanite movement, but anyway I rephrased it and also made the point that there is a problem with the definitions. I don't want to labor that point as in fact there is no agreement on the meaning of many terms in this article including the term "Zionism" itself. Postzionism deserves its own article where the internal and external debate can be aired but I don't think that should be done in this article. Note that what I have written does not even attempt to present the arguments in favor of Postzionism; I think that doesn't belong. Btw, I think that mention of the Canaanite movement would be better moved into its historical setting earlier in the article. --Zero 10:22, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The word "Zionism" comes from "Zion", being one of Jerusalem's names, as mentioned in the bible. Zionism is, literally, the yearning for the Holy Land, Zion (Jerusalem) being its symbol in the eyes of diaspora jews of the time (and much before). I corrected that bit of the article, and linked "Zion" to its wikipedia definition, which is pretty accurate. Also, I deleted two links: one referring to jews converting to islam, which might be relevant to some people, but not to the issue of Zionism. The other was plain racist and ignorant, in my humble opinion. I'm gonna look at that link again, just to make sure. --Tohe

I think your wording here actually works better than the wording you used in the main article, so I have incorporated it there. Adam

That link contains, beside valid criticism, lots of blunt propaganda, without a bit of reasoning such as: "The ever-scheming European imperialists wisely placed Israel where she could geographically divide the Arab world..." and a page of images entitled "Zionism and Nazism: We Can't Tell The Difference, Can You?". If that's not blatant propaganda, I don't know what is. Those things are valid as opinions but I don't think they should be offered as valid anti-zionist claims. Wonderer

I have been arguing this for over a year. This virulent kind of anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, and it is not a valid form of anti-nationalism. (See the Talk page for Anti-Semitism.) These views are not not logical arguments, they are not based on an fact. Such views, and the wesbites that promote them, belong in articles under bigotry, and not in political articles like this one. RK 14:10, Nov 22, 2003 (UTC)

Those links were carried over from the old article. Feel free to delete them and find a new set of relevant links. Adam

I added an article called Prominent Zionist Figures. It's hardly anything now, but I'd like it to become quite extensive. I do think that all of the people to be mentioned there, should also be incorporated into Zionism, or other complementary articles. Regardless, it'd be good to have such information concentrated under one article, as events are under Timeline of Zionism. Wonderer (a.k.a. Tohe)

For the record, the large chunk of text "Zionism and Germany" added by 216.239.85.234 and deleted by me was taken verbatim from a book review in the Journal of Palestine Studies (vol 129, 1). The interactions between Nazi Germany and the Zionist organizations do deserve an airing somewhere in Misplaced Pages, but I would argue against putting it in this article (except for a link). Viewpoints other than Brenner's would obviously need to be included. --Zero 03:38, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Attention RK, Zero and Danny. I have found all three of you to be intelligent and knowledgeable on the issues involved in this article, and I wish you would conduct your feuds elsewhere. As far as I can see you are arguing about one sentence in the post-zionism section. If no agreement can be reached I will delete the whole paragraph, which is pretty marginal anyway. I will continue to delete all off-topic personal abuse from this page. Adam 03:14, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I am backing off this one, but just for clarification, the debate was about a link that read: "Jews opposed to Zionism": An ultra-Orthodox Satmar website. Not recognized by other Jewish groups., which I changed to "Jews opposed to Zionism": An ultra-Orthodox website.. Danny 03:25, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

My view is that all the anti-Zionist links ought to be removed from this article, and placed at the article anti-Zionism, the rewriting of which ought to be our next project. Adam 04:30, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

In my opinion, it is impossible to write and maintain a good article on anti-Zionism in the Misplaced Pages environment. You are welcome to prove me wrong. --Zero 09:02, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I think the problem is that you implied that a fellow writer was an anti-Baptist bigot. I have been attacked in recent days as a liar, and as "evil"; this has shown that consensus is impossible when people allow feelings to reduce debate into ad homenim attacks. Having someone treat me badly in Dating the Bible makes my sympathetic to others who are treated in this way. Instead of accusing people of bigotry, work instead on clarifying the issue. See below. Asking specific questions can resolve disputes. JeMa 17:09, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC)

I accept the challenge :)

draft new Anti-Zionism article

Adam 15:58, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Clarifications

Here are questions that should help clarify the issue: JeMa

• RK, you claim that Satmar is anti-Zionist, and is not representative of mainstream Judaism. Could you provide references to support this?

I think we all agree that Satmar is anti-Zionist; they proclaim this quite openly. Danny and I agree on this. The disagreement is over whether a group that has such a tiny extremist following can be considered representative of mainstream Judaism. Quotes from leaders of Satmar are very explicit in stating that they do not belong to the same Jewish world as Modern Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or secular Judaism. They have been pretty clear in saying that they alone are Judaism, and that all else is not Judaism. I would reccomend reading David Landau's Piety and Power: The World of Jewish Fundamentalism for a good overview of Satmar, other ultra-Orthodox groups, their relationship to each other, and to the greater Jewish community. Also reccomended would be the articles on this subject in the Encyclopedia Judaica (Keter Publishing). I would be happy to offer relevant quotes from these publications.

RK says that the mentioned website is Satmar; Danny says that it is not Satmar, and instead represents many "Ultra-Orthodox" groups. Can either of you support your position?

This particular website itself prominently displays photographs of Satmar rabbis, and a large amount of Satmar quotes, and pushes a Satmar point of view. Views of other Orthodox groups are much less visible. I don't know how much more clear it can be. If someone wishes to claim that it is not Satmar, but is rather promoting the view of a set of groups equally, I think it is up to them to demonstrate this. I don't see any reason for viewing this website as anything other than it makes itself out to be - an outpost on the Internet to advocate a Satmar point of view on Zionism and the State of Israel. I am uncertain of why this is controversial. RK 21:52, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC)

• Danny, you say RK has confused Satmar with all anti-Zionist Jewish groups, and is ignorant of this subject. Could you provide a quote from him saying this? Maybe he was only talking about one weblink.

• Zero0000, you have attributed an anti-Baptist position to RK, and imply that he doesn't accept them as legitimate Chrisitians. Why? RK, do you have a position as to which Christians groups are legitimate?

I am not a Christian, so I care not for inter-Christian polemics. I understand that many American Protestant groups see Catholics as "heretics" and as un-Christian. I also know that some Catholics might feel the same way about some Protestant groups. However, I find such disagreements incomprehensible; to me, Baptists, Catholics, Anglicans, Greek Orthodox, Presbytrians, are all equally Chrisitian. My only statements on the matter were simply that even though they might be Christian, they are not the same. Baptists are not Catholics. These two groups are no longer in the same community, and it would be disingenuous to use the statements of a Baptist to represent the beliefs of Catholics. I think the same is true of Satmar in regards to the rest of the Jewish world. RK 21:52, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC)~

• Are there any mainstrea, Jewish groups which accept the views of Satmar as a representative view of the Jewish world? If so, who are these groups? About what percent of Jews worldwide view Satmar as mainstream? About what percent view Satmar as an unrepresentative extremist group?

None that I know of. If you read books, sermons and journal articles by rabbis and Jewish scholars, you will see that few of them see Satmar as mainstream. Even Orthodox authors like David Landau find it difficult to sympathise with their self-separation from the rest of the Jewish world. RK 21:52, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC)

• Do different people use the word "anti-Zionist" to mean different things? If so, why are these views combined into one article, when they really may be different ideas? If not, in what ways are all forms of anti-Zionism similar? Could we get references? JeMa 17:09, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC)

Hello! I have an idea about this, but I need more time than I have to write it up. Maybe this Sunday. RK 21:52, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC)

For the record, I have no idea nor interest in what RK's opinion is towards Baptists and I never accused him of having any particular opinion. He used Baptists/Catholics as an analogy and I stated my opinion that his analogy did not fit the situation he wanted it to fit. I used a simple rhetorical device (alternative straw analogy) to explain my point. --Zero 20:30, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Your simple rhetorical device made me look like a very bad person indeed. RK 21:52, Nov 26, 2003 (UTC)

Excuse me? What elementary mistake of understanding have I made? I have taken no part in this argument. Adam 23:27, 26 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Gulp. Sorry, I misread JeMa's comment as yours. An elementary mistake of understanding on my part, for which I apologise. I deleted my remark. --Zero 00:03, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

That's OK then. :) Go and read my anti-Zionism article and tell me what you think. Adam 00:21, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Whether the site is Satmar or not is irrelevant. Yes, there is a picture of Yoel Teitelbaum on the title page, but since he was the author of VaYoel Moshe, that would be appropriate. Just going by pictures though, there are also pictures of the Brisker, the Munkaczer, the Chofetz Chaim, the Rambam, and about twenty other rabbis, none of whom could be called Satmar. The demonstrations in Jerusalem that appear in the pictures were led by Blau, who is not Satmar either. As for Satmar quotes, they are represented no more than Brisker quotes--can you pick out the Briskers in the gallery? The problematic issue is actually the idea of writing people out of "mainstream" Jewish life. Is there such a thing? That is assuming a homogeneity that probably does not exist. In fact, that is part of RK's problem when discussing Jewish life--he describes the gamut as Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist. This is exclusionary, since all of those groups define their Jewishness in terms of religion. While that may be an American phenomenon (and I question that too--so what is Woody Allen), it fails to account for the vast numbers of people who consider themselves ethnically Jewish, though they do not identify with a particular religious denomination. Most Jewish Israelis aren't Orthodox--but they do not define themselves as Conservative or Reform either (the miniscule Conservative and Reform congregations in Israel are primarily Anglo immigrants). In fact, classical Zionism is about Jewish peoplehood, not religion. The particular view espoused by RK could, then, even be defined as antithetical to classical Zionism, a la Borochov or even Herzl. As for people who consider Satmar mainstream, the ultra-Orthodox world does, even if some groups may disagree with their attitudes toward Zionism. The Jewish world does, even if some groups disagree with their attitudes toward Zionism and religion. That is because for them, and for most Jews, Zionism is not the unifying bond that unites the many, segmented Jews together into some undefinable mainstream. Asssuming it is puts an interesting spin on Weissmandel's 10 questions. Zionism is one movement out of many, which often clash bitterly (the GRA put the Baal HaTanya in cherem, remember). Say it is an ultra-Orthodox website. Fine. No need to go on the Zionist defensive with some POV attribution about some imaginary mainstream. Otherwise, I might be tempted to start quoting the many proud Jews that think that all Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform are "out of the mainstream," or as they would say, a bunch of meshugenes. Danny 00:48, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Some Christians also claim to be Zionists. See Christian Zionism
--Adam, I don't know what that means. Why the "also"? Are you referring to some movement different from support of Zionism? --Zero 03:44, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Here, too, there are different historical attitudes among Christians claiming to be Zionists: Orde Wingate, the son of Christian missionaries in India and widely claimed to be a founder of the IDF, was an early Christian Zionist, whose motivation was unlike that of, say, Pat Robertson, although they have certain key features in common. Danny 04:02, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

A slightly earlier example would be Richard Meinertzhagen. However, I wonder if Adam was intending to refer to the phenomenon of Zionism as a Christian religious movement. Such as described at http://www.canadiandimension.mb.ca/v37/v37_2mw.htm for example (not necessarily a great article). Of course the boundary is unclear, but I would try to distiguish between Christians who have given active support to the Zionist movement and those who have a separate agenda that has some present common interest with Zionism but have ultimate aims that conflict. Either way, some clarification of the reference would be a good idea. --Zero 04:34, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with Richard Meinertzhagen. Danny 04:36, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I have had a stab at Christian Zionism, just out of interest. Comments welcome. Adam 04:54, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I used the word "also" because this article defines Zionism as "a movement among Jews." Christians who claim to be Zionists must therefore be treated separately. Adam 04:56, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)

No, you gave two definitions and only the first was "among Jews". In any case, I think "Zionist" should mean any supporter of that particular political movement, similar to communist, anarchist, etc.. Also to make it comparable to "anti-Zionist" as any opponent of that movement. I realise my opinion on that isn't universal. --Zero 06:03, 29 Nov 2003 (UTC)