Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Zero0000 (talk | contribs) at 09:53, 19 November 2003 (Molodet, Elon, expulsion). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

I removed:

As a means to legalise their position, the israelis have taken invading refugee camps Sabra and Chatila Massacre and vilages in an attempt to scare off Palestinians and claim the land as theirs.

The massacre in Sabra and Shatilla was not committed by Israel. Israel's responsibility, and for that matter Sharon's, was in not stopping their Christian Phalangist allies in Lebanon from committing the massacre. Nor was the massacre committed to legalize settlements. It took place in Lebanon, not the West Bank or Gaza. No Israeli government has ever made territorial claims on Lebanon, nor have any settlements been created there. Of course, a statement like this also merits an Israeli explanation of the actions if it is to be considered NPOV. According to Israel, refugee camps in the West Bank have Gaza have been invaded to stop thm serving as terrorist bases. It is not a question of agreeing with this or not. Personally, I do not, however, claiming that it is a policy intended to scare off the Palestinians requires some factual backing. I'd like to see that. Finally, it is Sabra and Shatilla (S and 2 l's).Danny

Let's improve the article by describing

1. advocacy which opposes the settlemnts
2. advocacy which supports the settlements

I presume Arabs are mostly against the settlements, because they regard the West Bank as properly belonging to a Palestinian state (de facto, de jure, or proposed) -- so the Israelis are trespassing, to say the least.

I presume the Israeli military wants radar installations that can see across the Jordan River, to get an extra 10 minutes' warning of enemy jets or missiles.

No doubt there are other issues as well. Please, someone who knows the area and the issues, write about this. Thank you. Ed Poor

Ed, you are confusing several issues here. military installations are not settlements. Many people in Israel, perhaps the majority, support removing most of the settlement but keeping military installations in vital places. And it is actually 3 minutes, not 10. Danny

Thanks for clarifying that, Danny. Ed Poor

These settlements have been declared to be illegal by the UN Security Council (Resolution 446), and Israel has been asked by that resolution to cease further settlement activity. Since resolution 446 was not made under Chapter VI or VII of the United Nations Charter , Israel argues that it is purely an advisory request, and chose not to fulfill it. The issue of the legal status of resolutions of the UN Security Council not made under Chapters VI or VII of the Charter is controversial in international law -- some accept Israel's argument, others reject it, and consider the resolution to be legally binding on Israel.

What are these chapters ?

I may have got the chapter numbers wrong, but as I remember, Chapter VI is compulsory measures of a non-military nature taken to protect international peace and security (e.g. peackeeping missions, sanctions, weapons inspections, embargos); Chapter VII is compulsory measures of a military nature (i.e. the United Nations authorizes a war). All members of the United Nations are legally obligated to obey resolutions of the Security Council made under these two chapters (such resolutions always contain the recital "Acting under Chapter whatever of the Charter of the United Nations", or words to similar effect) -- everyone is more or less in agreement on this. Whether or not they are legally obligated to obey and implement resolutions not containing that language is controversial. Resolution 446 did not contain such language.

Also controversial is are there any legal limits to the powers of the Security Council (can it legally command whatever it likes?), and whether the legality of Security Council resolutions is open to challenge before the International Court of Justice... -- SJK

Palestinians argue that the settlements are a unilateral act, not a bilaterally agreed act;

I think this sentence is irrelevant in discussing the reasons for the Jordanian giving up of their claims to the West Bank. Jordan simply said: "I don't care anymore about these territories, I sign my peace with Israel and I trust that Israel and the Palestinians will reach an agreement some day, but which exactly I don't care". They did not make their giving up somehow conditional on the question of Israeli settlements. That's why I think this phrase is irrelevant. uriyan

At the time of writing, no hard evidence has been produced by Israel to support these claims.

Removing plants or buildings after an attack is a standard procedure. Just several months ago, there was a family that protested its house being demolished in the Israeli Supreme Court (the house was used for an ambush). Israel's decision-making in this field follows a known procedure and is well documented.

arguing that Israeli settlements constitute de facto military bases.

Fragment. Under international law, settlements do not constitute bases, troops being deployed solely for protection. Moreover, settlers are still non-combatant civilians.

pointing to the fact that Israel has continued transferring her own civilian population to settlements

Israel does not 'transfer' population to settlements: they may come and go according to free will

which have come from Israel and the USA

Each side brings its issues. That's called negotiation.

The security of a future Palestinian state from attack by Israel has occasionally been mentioned in this connection.

So Israel would be signing a peace agreement with the Palestinians to attack them? The Palestinians' main proposed source of attack is Israel, while Israel's is not the Palestinians. So while the Palestinians are covered by a peace agreement by definition, Israel is not. --Uri

List of changes:

1. Al-Quds (ash-Shareef) is Jerusalem, plain and simple. Jerusalem is the accpeted English name; using it solely for East Jerusalem is incorrect and biased.

Agreed. --Elian 18:35 Oct 7, 2002 (UTC)

1. I wonder why it must hurt to mention that settlers are entitled to life. In spite of the fact that this has been reiterated numerous times by the U.N., various NGOs and who else, it's far from being common knowledge.

Please go around wikipedia and add this to all events in history where people got killed. Mentioning it only here gives a particular moralic stance which doesn't conform with NPOV, so I cut it (even if I agree with you that every human being is entitled to life ;-)) --Elian 18:35 Oct 7, 2002 (UTC)

1. 6200 sq. km. are not under the control of settlers! Jacob, did you notice the 4% figure? That's the land under settler control; the rest are closed territories. This addition was biased, unhelpful, and the worst part is that you could have avoided it by looking up stuff. Why didn't you do that? --Uri

my changes: Some of the settlements were established on the spots of Jewish communities destroyed by Arabs in 1929 and 1947, while most are new. removed. What does this sentence signify? While this may be true, it should either be balanced with fatcs about settlements/highways etc erected on confiscated palestinian ground or left out. --Elian 18:35 Oct 7, 2002 (UTC)

Um, was it is Ok for Arabs to mass-murder Jews and take over their towns (like in Hebron)? Is Ok by you that this essential part of the conflict be hidden? Do you hold that Jews finally move back into areas where they always used to live, this is "incitement"? How is your view any different than Palestinian anti-Semitic propaganda that Jews hadn't been living there all along? No thanks. The material you deleted must be restored. You can't just delete historical facts that you find uncomfortable. That is a violation of all the ethical and scholarly standards by which the Misplaced Pages community works. If you think that some info should be added, then add this material. But don't just wipe out critical facts because you are too lazy to write new material. RK

First, thanks for removing the sentence about my agenda being biased and anti-Jewish (I have a text in preparation that explains my personal views on the conflict, but it's not finished yet, but there's one thing I can say: I am not anti-Jewish). Second: I invite you to have a look at Misplaced Pages:Arab-Israeli conflict editing project and read over the discussion in the mailinglist and add your general view there. Next: By removing this sentence I didn't intend to deny that Jews were living in the holy land for a long long time (I don't really understand how you came to this conclusion by the above statement). But in regard to the fact, that many settlements (while some were erected on the ground of old Jewish settlements) were erected on confiscated Arab ground (where also mass-murder may have occurred - see Deir Yassin, which is a Israeli village now) the above sentence brings bias in the article. And until it's de-biased I'd prefer to have it here on the talk page. Last, regarding laziness: I am no native english-speaker and it's very hard for me to write in English (and takes much time, too). I will write new material, but it may take some time. --Elian

The number of Palestinians within the West Bank and Gaza has also undergone a large increase as human species tends to reproduce.

Yes, but aren't Israelis humans as well? I am sure that you are not implying that Palestinians have a right to expand their towns and have children because they are human, but that right is somehow questionable for Israelis. Yet that is how it comes off. I say this because much Islamic literature popular among Palestinians teaches explicitly that Israelies are "the sons of dogs and pigs", and that they really do not have a right to live in any part of the land, West Bank or Israel proper. Most Islamic teachers among Palestinians really do deny Jews any form of human rights whatsoever. RK

Yes, Israelis are humans as well. But I think there is a major and fundamental difference between a systematic policy of building settlements and increasing population by settling people there and the "normal" way a population increases (which is happening in the Israeli settlements as well) The question is a political one: Do the Israelis have the right to install settlements on an occupied territory which is not an official part of their state and by doing this creating a situation which makes the planned creation of a Palestinian state extremely difficult (and violating the terms of the Oslo accords)? and just a remark: I don't think that we should refer to extremists' views in discussion. And articles shouldn't be written in an attitude to implicitly argue against these ridiculous views. Further I want to add that there is also a part of Palestinians who are Christians, have nothing to do with "Islamist literature", don't deny the right of Israelis to live in Israel but however strongly call for a stop of settlement building as a mean of making a functional Palestinian state in Westbank and Gaza impossible. Do you deny that the Palestinians have a right to an own state and a right of political self-determination, a right to vote, a right to express their opinion freely, i.e. everything which constitutes the freedom most Americans do so strongly support? BTW, I left a message on your Userpage. I'd appreciate hearing your opinions about the project. --Elian

This land is not simply "occupied" or "liberated", it is disputed. Also it should not be forgotten that Palestine comprises land on both sides of the Jordan river. Therefore there are already "2 states for 2 people". One Arab Palestinian state: Jordan, one Jewish Palestinian state: Israel. A third one would be injustice against the Jewish people because they have only this one state (whereas the Arabs have 22).

I think the discussion should move from national questions to human rights questions: How can this conflict be ended in a way which is fast and helps the entire population? When all the stateless Palestinians get Jordanian citizenship then they have their nation state *and* they can stay in Israel as normal foreign citizens. This proposal could really work: http://www.therightroadtopeace.com/eng/defaulteng.html

This is Benny Elon's "solve the problem by expelling the palestians" solution?

No, "expelling the palestinians" is not part of the plan, see Elon Peace Plan Der Eberswalder 06:56, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The pro-transfer policy of Elon is well-known to every Israeli. He's careful not to specify the exact mechanism by which the "completion of the exchange of populations that began in 1948" (his words) will be achieved, but nobody is fooled. His proposal is barely different from Kahane's was. --Zero 13:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

There is a huge difference between forced Ethnic cleansing and persuasion (by development aid). What you are writing is just plain backbiting. Der Eberswalder 06:35, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

You must be the only person in the universe who is fooled. Elon has made his intentions completely clear in speeches and interviews and there is hardly a single Israeli who doesn't understand them. Elon is not a fool and he knows full well that few Palstinians will leave just because they have financial assistance. They will refuse to cooperate, their refusal will be considered a "declaration of war" then "Should the Arab population of Judea, Samaria & Gaza declare war on us, they will be expelled to their state, on the other side of the Jordan River." . I suspect you really know this already. --Zero 09:53, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I made a few changes today, but it will take a lot more work to balance the "they are illegal claim" of Palestinian Arabs with pro-Israeli POV. I wish someone who knew more about law than I do, would research this. --Uncle Ed 14:49, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Dunno about law, but I know something about the English language - viz, that when you march into a place and hold it at gunpoint it is and must be called occupation - attempting to pretend a military occupation is anything else but a military occupation is simply absurd. I'm not even going to read the rest of the article - with a start like that, it ain't worth it. Tannin