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Anthropology Unassessed

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Apropos historical portrayal of the concept

The historical portrayal in this article is with no doubt very incomplete. To add some information I will copy an excerpt of William McDougall's "The Group Mind," 1920; Page 317:

"The Gauls were a mixed people of whom the minority, constituting the nobility, were of the tall, fair, long-headed Nordic race; while the majority, the mass of the common people, were of the short, dark, round-headed race. And these, as the numerous observations of the anthropologists show, constitute to-day the bulk of the population, except in Normandy and the extreme north-east of France.

The Teutons or Germans of Caesar and Tacitus, on the other hand, were of the fair Nordic race; and the Anglo-Saxons who overran Britain, together with the Danes and Normans, who, with the Saxons, formed the principal ancestral stock of the English, were of this same Nordic race, or Northmen, as we may call them.

Now, it might seem useless to attempt to arrive at any conclusions as to the influences that shaped these races in prehistoric times. But an attempt has been made by one of the schools of French sociologists, which, in spite of its speculative character, seems to be worthy of attention. This is the school of "La Science Sociale," founded seventy years ago by Frederic le Play and more recently led by Ed. Demolins and H. de Tourville. Aided by a number of ardent disciples, they have made a special study of the influence of physical environment in determining occupations and social organisation, and in moulding indirectly through these the mental qualities of peoples. That is their great principle. ...

Page 318:

And, of all the conclusions of the Le Play school, their account of the origin of the distinctive characters of the Northmen is one of the most striking and satisfactory; ...

Page 327

The modern Frenchman, says Demolins, would regard as the height of folly the enterprises of the old Northmen, who, mounted on their frail ships, quitted each spring the coast of Scandinavia, launched out on the wild sea, landed, a mere handful of men, on the coasts of Germany, Britain, or Gaul, and there with their swords carved out domains and made new homesteads. It was thus that the ancestors of Tancred had acquired the manor of Hauteville, and it was thus that his sons conquered Italy and Sicily.

It was in a very similar way that, in a later age, men of the same breed carried to the new world the same individualistic institutions and the same spirit of independence, and in doing so, laid the foundations of the immense vigour and prosperity of the American people."

So, to give a more complete account of the evolution of the "Nordic race" concept, the contributions of at least the following people should be included:

Pierre Guillaume Fréderic le Play (1806-1882)

Henri de Tourville (1842-1903)

Edmond Demolins (1852-1907)

The fact that the term Nordic "came into vogue rather late" like the article states leaves out a big part of the story - whatever this race was called – the idea of such a race took a rather elaborate shape much earlier. So at its present state this Misplaced Pages-article sheds a wrong light. 217.236.226.181 19:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Merging Nordic race into Nordic theory?

Like exposed already before in Nordic Theory is not the Nordic Race (RFC), I entirely disagree to a redirect of an anthropological article to an article discussing racial theories, for being confusing to readers soliciting encyclopedic information on anthropology. This is like redirecting God to Nietzsche, redirecting cars to polution or redirecting President Bush to Human Right abuses. I mean, such a link gives an unsolicited moral lesson to those eager to retrieve neutral encyclopedic information on the subject, and thus would express a NPOV political statement. Also, this would treat links to "Alpine race" and "Mediterranian race" differently, what used to be especially bothersome before this article's creationdate while linking from non-political articles. My opinion is not against Nordic theory as an article, to the contrary, I just completely disagree on the argument conveyed with this proposal to merge: "Both articles contain basically the same thing". I think such a merge, in this direction to Nordic theory, would be basically a political statement, without any additional value to the anthropological context.

Here I quote on Misplaced Pages:Merging_and_moving_pages#Merging: There are several good reasons to merge a page:

1. Duplicate - There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject.
2. Overlap - There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability.
3. Text - If a page is very short and is unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time, it often makes sense to merge it with a page on a broader topic. For instance, parents or children of a celebrity that are otherwise unremarkable are generally covered in a section of the article on the celebrity, and can be merged there.
4. Context - If a short article requires the background material or context from a broader article in order for readers to understand it. For instance, minor characters from works of fiction are generally covered in a "List of characters in <work>", and can be merged there; see also WP:FICT.

Not any of this "good reasons" apply. My arguments against the proposed merge could be defined accordingly:

1. . The two articles are not duplicates since anthropology and politics are two different things
2. . There is not any overlap: in Nordic Theory not one single descriptive word was dedicated to the anthropological features (at the moment of creation). I suspect political activism after a merge would soon result in unworthy edits that mix politics, racism and myth with descriptive and objective features, just like discussed above. Who is going to protect us from this bias within an article on Nordic Theory? What kind of discussion are we going to invite on an anthropological subject, using what political arguments? Will this force into censoring or racial bias? Let us keep this two things separate for once!
3. . The article on Nordic race could still be expanded on and still treats the subject in a comprehensive way already. Lots of valuable information on prehistoric Nordic races and archeological findings could be added
4. . The article Nordic Race could do perfectly without Nordic Theory to understand the basic features and anthropological concepts. As such, such an argument would rather justify a merge the other way round, Nordic Theory into Nordic Race. If the articles would fit together, I would rather suggest this - for the simple reason that there would be no Nordic theory without a Nordic race. To say otherwise would imply a political denial of the anthropological concept Nordic race, and this could perfectly fit and be discussed in a political article like Nordic theory.

I would add another reason not to merge:

1. . Such a merge would raise questions on the political agenda of some.

Rokus01 18:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Rokus01, Nearly all of the reasons to merge a page fit this proposed merger. 1. There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject. "Nordic Theory" and "Nordic race" are exactly the same subjects. Nordic theories revolve around the "Nordic race". There is actually no such thing as the "Nordic race" and the Nordic theories article is more encompassing, meaning that the Nordic race article should be merged into this one. 2. Overlap - There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. This also fits this scenario. The Nordic race article is an archaic racial term which doesn't deserve it's own article. As a matter of a fact, I would support merging Alpine race and Mediterranean race all into one article possibly called "Historical concepts of Race" since most of the info in this Nordic theory article contains general information about historical concepts of race opposed to "Nordicism" in specifically. This article or merger has absolutely nothing to do with politics but archaic scientific beliefs that have little to do with actual anthropology and can't be merged with any anthropology articles so must be merged with similar articles on archaic beliefs towards race, especially the non existent "Nordic race". Or simply merged into a single article detailing archaic beliefs towards race in general. Wikidudeman 15:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

So to express it in plain words – you don't want a category:Race(historical definitions) to exist. But guess what – it does not matter at all what you or I or anybody else thinks about the validity of these historical definitions – they played their role in history – that is what matters. Not only some weird fringe considered them valid (which would be a pro-deletion argument), but the leading schools of their day. Without any doubt there shall be separate articles.

Sincerely, 217.236.226.181 19:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Moving discussion concerning merger

Proposing merger

I am proposing that Nordic race be merged into this article. Both articles contain basically the same thing and both fit perfectly together. I would have simply merged them myself but I wanted some input before doing so. The Nordic race article says basically the same thing as this one and it doesn't look like it's going to do much growing in the future. It should be condensed and put into a subsection of this article, probably the top or next to the top. The Nordish race article should also be merged into this one as well for the exact same reasons. Wikidudeman 05:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I entirely agree. The Nordic race article is a very new ceation by user:Rokus01, though the page as a redirect has been there for years. See the discussion above in the section Nordic Theory is not the Nordic Race (RFC). I thought I would not object its creation, since there were very few other editors who expressed an interest in the subject, despite my RfC. Those who have seem to agree that it should not be :separate. Paul B 14:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Like exposed already before in Talk:Nordic theory#Nordic Theory is not the Nordic Race (RFC), I entirely disagree to a redirect of an anthropological article to an article discussing racial theories, for being confusing to readers soliciting encyclopedic information on anthropology. This is like redirecting God to Nietzsche, redirecting cars to polution or redirecting President Bush to Human Right abuses. I mean, such a link gives an unsolicited moral lesson to those eager to retrieve neutral encyclopedic information on the subject, and thus would express a NPOV political statement. Also, this would treat links to "Alpine race" and "Mediterranian race" differently, what used to be especially bothersome before this article's creationdate while linking from non-political articles. My opinion is not against Nordic theory as an article, to the contrary, I just completely disagree on the argument conveyed with this proposal to merge: "Both articles contain basically the same thing". I think such a merge, in this direction to Nordic theory, would be basically a political statement, without any additional value to the anthropological context.

Here I quote on Misplaced Pages:Merging_and_moving_pages#Merging: There are several good reasons to merge a page:

1. Duplicate - There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject.
2. Overlap - There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept in the universe. For example, "Flammable" and "Non-flammable" can both be explained in an article on Flammability.
3. Text - If a page is very short and is unlikely to be expanded within a reasonable amount of time, it often makes sense to merge it with a page on a broader topic. For instance, parents or children of a celebrity that are otherwise unremarkable are generally covered in a section of the article on the celebrity, and can be merged there.
4. Context - If a short article requires the background material or context from a broader article in order for readers to understand it. For instance, minor characters from works of fiction are generally covered in a "List of characters in <work>", and can be merged there; see also WP:FICT.

Not any of this "good reasons" apply. My arguments against the proposed merge could be defined accordingly: 1. The two articles are not duplicates since anthropology and politics are two different things 2. There is not any overlap: in Nordic Theory not one single descriptive word was dedicated to the anthropological features (at the moment of creation). I suspect political activism after a merge would soon result in unworthy edits that mix politics, racism and myth with descriptive and objective features, just like discussed above. Who is going to protect us from this bias within an article on Nordic Theory? What kind of discussion are we going to invite on an anthropological subject, using what political arguments? Will this force into censoring or racial bias? Let us keep this two things separate for once! 3. The article on Nordic race could still be expanded on and still treats the subject in a comprehensive way already. Lots of valuable information on prehistoric Nordic races and archeological findings could be added 4. The article Nordic Race could do perfectly without Nordic Theory to understand the basic features and anthropological concepts. As such, such an argument would rather justify a merge the other way round, Nordic Theory into Nordic Race. If the articles would fit together, I would rather suggest this - for the simple reason that there would be no Nordic theory without a Nordic race. To say otherwise would imply a political denial of the anthropological concept Nordic race, and this could perfectly fit and be discussed in a political article like Nordic theory.

I would add another reason not to merge: 5. Such a merge would raise questions on the political agenda of some. Rokus01 18:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

But there is no anthropological concept of a Nordic race any more. It is an entirely historical concept. It was meaningful when models were being developed based on cranial morphology and mapped onto prehistorical population movements, but those models no longer have any currency. Paul B 21:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

We are not talking about validity or having currency, we are talking about independent subjects being encyclopedic. Listen to what you say here: do you consider Nordic theories to be still meaningful instead? You are completely wrong, cranial morphology and physical phenotypes are still used to study prehistorical population movements, and to study local continuïty as well. The Nordic race model might be too coarse and superficial to be valid to modern investigation of prehistoric graves, however, the other article clearly acknowledge a shift of anthropological interest towards corresponding subtypes. Some of these subtypes are clearly related to specific prehistoric cultures, like Brunn (Linear Pottery culture) and Boroby (Beaker culture). To say measurements of physical differences not to matter anymore is merely a political statement. To say such measurements are obsolete to anthropology is utterly untrue. You have to acknowledge the historical context of Nordic race to have both an anthropological side and a political side. Both are encyclopedic. You could merge with Nordish race, since this article also has a political focus. However, the article Nordic race clearly rejects such a political focus. Rokus01 22:43, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

It's not a political statement. I fully accept that cranial morphology is still used in forensics, but in archaeology it has largely been replaced by genetics. Since DNA has been recoverable from ancient teeth, cranial morphology has become largely obsolete as a means to determine ancestry. The fact is that "Nordic race" means almost nothing these days. That does not, of course, mean that the distinctive morphology of Northern Europeans does not exist. Of course it does, and if the skeleton of a murder victim is found the police can use the classic cranial morphology models to determine "Nordic" origins. That's about it though. Paul B 23:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

You are making up things. DNA investigation to prehistoric skeletons are science fiction in most cases, since it is hard to find sufficient DNA left. Skeletons that turn up in archeological digs are always measured and investigated on phenotype features, and classified according to type. Human osteology, not DNA investigation, is considered the modern practice of regional morphology. An extensive database, built from studies in many countries on museum material and dental models of living patients, is now available, and has yielded broad morphological groupings that can be interpreted in terms of the migrations and ancestry of human populations (Hillson 1996:289). Please verify archeological reports, primary sources and scientific reviews. Rokus01 02:39, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

You are the one making things up. Have you never heard of the disputes about the cephalic index? Can you claim that morphology proves the existence of a "nordic race"? The quotation is specifically about dental morphology, which is affected by specific environmental factors. DNA is increasingly being extracted from teeth . It is used along with oxygen isotope analysis. Obviously, it's expensive, however, which limits usefulness. Paul B 02:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not proclaim te existence of the Nordic race. I proclaim the encyclopedic value of this denomination. The Nordic type is still referenced at in serious anthropological papers. I just expanded and sourced the article a bit more to make this clear. If considered more appropiate I would consider a renaming of the other article to "Nordic type". This should be enough for this discussion to be cut short. Rokus01 16:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I do not proclaim te existence of the Nordic race. I proclaim the encyclopedic value of this denomination. The Nordic type is still referenced at in serious anthropological papers. I just expanded and sourced the article a bit more to make this clear. If considered more appropiate I would consider a renaming of the other article to "Nordic type". This should be enough for this discussion to be cut short. Rokus01 16:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Rokus01, Nearly all of the reasons to merge a page fit this proposed merger. 1. There are two or more pages on exactly the same subject. "Nordic Theory" and "Nordic race" are exactly the same subjects. Nordic theories revolve around the "Nordic race". There is actually no such thing as the "Nordic race" and the Nordic theories article is more encompassing, meaning that the Nordic race article should be merged into this one. 2. Overlap - There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. This also fits this scenario. The Nordic race article is an archaic racial term which doesn't deserve it's own article. As a matter of a fact, I would support merging Alpine race and Mediterranean race all into one article possibly called "Historical concepts of Race" since most of the info in this Nordic theory article contains general information about historical concepts of race opposed to "Nordicism" in specifically. Wikidudeman 14:49, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikidude, Nordic theory refers to the abuse of racial schemes to political ends, not to what you think is appropiate to be current among anthropologists. In fact, it is Nordic theory being obsolete, not the anthropological base. The Nordic race (or type) denomination is still used, although distinctions on color are not considered relevant to the investigation of prehistoric skeletons. Other denominations coexist. Don't mix things up. Just concentrate yourself on describing these abuses by fascism and don't pretend proper use of science to be responsable to all mischief. Nationality was all what counted and most people killed by Nazi's for "race" would fit the Nordic umbrella "nicely". Don't insist on the lies of fascism to be true and recognize racial theories do not have anything to do with anthropological differences. An article on anthropology does not belong to the Nordic theory views of a couple of racist madmen. Your political agenda to deny some valuable encyclopedic information will not be contented Rokus01 16:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

This article doesn't just specifically deal with the use of this theory by fascists. I have no political agenda here. This proposed merger has nothing to do with politics. The Nordic theory article has numerous overlapping aspects with the Nordic race article and that's why it should be merged, There is no need for 2 separate articles. Combining and condensing all of the relevant into into a single article makes much more sense from a pragmatic standpoint. Wikidudeman 17:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I consider the initial and prime statement of Nordic theory, "Nordic theory (or Nordicism) is a theory of racial supremacy", incompatable to all other articles concerning race, including this one. Nordic theory is political and is relevant to fascism. Race should not be subject to political theories. Rokus01 20:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

That could easily be changed. The fact is, If all of the corresponding information in the Nordic theory was removed so it didn't relate much to this current article we would be left with a stub. Wikidudeman 23:11, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikidude, the scope of this article is anthropology, and the scope of Nordic theory is racism. Some background information of both articles might correspond, however, the context remains completely different. Maybe you could change one sentence, but racial supremacy, the core argument of Nordic theory, just is not relevant, not even appropiate, to the scope of this article. You'd better try to extend Nordic theory thus to make clear how the racist interpretation of race tends to put the emphasis on nationality instead of anthropology. A "National" race (I mean a human type exclusively confined to a certain nation or linguistic group) do not exist and are the abuse of fascistic racists. I would be grateful if you could concentrate on this instead. Rokus01 18:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that the Aryan Race page should be totally overhauled, revised and still posted as an article. There should also be one for Aryan People. There is one for "black people" you know.

You should see what Paul B. posted about you and all of this on the Aryan Race discussion tab.

Gardenersville 05:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC) And Why does Xanthochroic only refer to birds?

The article

There is no reliable anthropology that I can see in this article Rokus. It's a melange of obsolete stuff taken from Deniker and Coon onto which you have grafted very fringe theories concerning Neanderthal admixture and genetic studies which actually say the opposite of what you claim they do. You claim that Coon's concept of Brunn/Falid types have been validated: "Anthropological investigation of the Carpathian Basis reveals a high degree of isolation and local continuity here of this same type, being referred to as a Protonordic-Cro-Magnoid type. This type has proved to be strong in the Central European and Bohemian Linear Pottery populations and only lost its local predominance in the Celtic period at the end of prehistory. The virtual disappearance and discontinuity of the type in Central Europe by the arrival of new immigrants has been confirmed by recent investigations on mtDNA."

The footnote 8 actually states "The results provide strong evidence that modern Europeans descend mostly from the hunter–gatherers. The evidence hinges on a distinctive genetic pattern that was present in about 25% of the first farmers, but is found in just 0.2% of Europeans today."

In other words there was no displacement "by the arrival of new immigrants", since they have made a tiny genetic contribution to European populations in comparison to the existing pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherers. Paul B 23:02, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You could read the article on physical type and discover that it has been established that the agricultural population in this region was virtually replaced by Bell Beaker (Borreby) immigrants. Indeed, this people already passed the hunter-gatherers stage. Is this what you mean? The Bell-Beakers are (generally assumed) culturally derived from Corded Ware and there exists strong support for assuming cultural continuity back to Hunter gatherers fore bearers contemporary to Linear pottery. In this context, the Linear Pottery agriculturists, having cultural roots in the Donau region or beyond, are considered opposite to the people deriving from north european hunter gatherers. Indeed, the DNA paper is agnostic to older local DNA. Still both papers say the same: the Linear pottery people (thus also the Linear pottery people of this region) are virtually extinct. If you meant to say the original people where just "swarmed" by immigrants in a natural process of mixing: this theory has been investigated in the mtDNA paper and has been rejected by genetic drift mathematics.Rokus01 17:08, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Now that is what I am talking about Rokus!

Gardenersville 06:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Cro-Magnon -> Protonordic-Cro-Magnoid type (Neanderthal admixture) -> Brunn/Falid types -> Hallstatt type (size decrease)

evolved 1: Cro-Magnon + Neanderthal -> (interbred) -> Protonordic-Cro-Magnoid type

evolved 2: Protonordic-Cro-Magnoid type -> Brunn/Falid types

evolved 3: Brunn/Falid types -> (size decreased) -> Hallstatt type

nagara373 16:37, 6 Aug 2007 (JST)

Hair color

Hallstatt type: light brown (most commmon), blond

Falid type: blond (most common: ash-blond)

Brunn type: blond (most common), light brown

Keltic type: blond, red, light brown

Eye color

Hallstatt type: blue (most common), green, gray, light brown

Falid type: blue (most common), gray, green

Brunn type: blue (most common), green

Keltic type: blue, green, brown

Nagara373 14:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not an anthropologist, but I think the article is based on problematic claims. For example, the Brunn type of Coon is different from the real Paleolithic Brunn that is bound with the Gravettian culture. I have never heard about "Combe Capelle" in connection with the Gravettian, not speaking about the doubtful dating of Combe Capelle. Centrum99 -- 82.100.61.114 (talk) 18:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The Coon classification refers to the paleolithic remains that are still "found in solution" elsewhere, not to the neolithic remains in the same aera. The link between the paleolithic Brunn and the conservative proto-nordic neolithic remains in the Carpatian basin is continuity and not the names of the archeological sites. Basically the article tries to stick to the bicultural origins of humans in Europe. You are right that the definition of Gravette is different from Combe Capelle, the gracialization and possible influx involved is better described by Gravette.Rokus01 (talk) 22:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

For Sports

Hallstatt type: better for basketball player due to athletic body type

Fälish type: better for American football lineman and powerlifter due to very strong

Brünn type: better for American football lineman and powerlifter due to very strong

nagara373 16:04, 6 Aug 2007 (JST)

Nordic Race and R. W. Darré

You apparently insists that you want to remove the sentence "For example, the later Nazi minister for Food, Richard Walther Darré, who had developed a concept of the German peasantry as Nordic race, used the term 'Aryan' to refer to the tribes of the Iranian plains." from the article [[Nordic Race}} Your insistence here is coming close to vandalism. That Richard Walther Darré had developed a concept of the German peasantry as Nordic race is highly relevant, since he is the most prominent proponent of a theory about a Nordic Race. The difference between concepts of Nordic race and Aryan race is also relevant. THESE STATEMENTS ARE SOURCED TO A STANDARD, ACADEMIC WORK about Darré in English (which is, by the way, written from a rather conservative perspektive.) You will at least have to get "Blood and Soil: Richard Walther Darré and Hitler's "Green Party". Abbotsbrook, England: The Kensal Press. ISBN 0-946041-33-4" from a library yourself and see for yourself. Make sure, that you are familiar with Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources and Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. Zara1709 (talk) 22:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Quote: since he is the most prominent proponent of a theory about a Nordic Race

A prominent Nazi won't make a prominent anthropologist, all the contrary.

The Nordic race article is not for politically describing or evaluating a theory. This has already been undertaken by the article Nordic theory, listed as a "History" article. All further historical backgrounds, political concepts and abuses could be discussed there and you'll be happy since nazi shit is crawling all over that place. The Nordic race article, however, is a (WikiProject) Anthropology article. The focus will be on relevant anthropological investigation and results on a certain group of people sharing certain anthropological features, no matter how you'll label it. Racialist and racist Nazi contributions do not belong to this category. Moreover, Nazi ideology is anachronistic to the development of the Nordic race concept. Rokus01 (talk) 07:07, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Your argument is utter nonsense, unsurprisingly. You say that "historical backgrounds" are not relevant, and you you quote Ripley and Coon who are contemporary with Darre, but you do not quote one single modern anthropologist who believes that the "Nordic race" is a meaningful concept. Paul B (talk) 07:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Like always you are distorting my words. I say all further historical backgrounds are dealt with in your Nordic theory article. Indeed, this also means those further historical backgrounds are undue to this article. I don't see any relevance to the specific contributions of this Nazi here, since like I already said: A prominent Nazi won't make a prominent anthropologist. Also, it is not of any interest whether or not Nordic race is a valid concept. Of interest is that Nordic race represents a certain group of people sharing certain anthropological features. This is not a concept, this is an observation, observed in various, also recent anthropological publications. Your kind of people are the ones that try to racialize here. Rokus01 (talk) 12:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

You have no right to determine what "further" material is relevant, and you deleted references to Gunther, who was a prominent anthropologist. This is pure ideology, nothing less. As for your absurd claim that it is not a concept but an observation, that's meaningless. We don't have articles on observations. I may observe that people in Beverwijk are shorter than average, but I have no right to create an article about it unless Beverwijkian shortness is a recognised concept. I may observe that there are often visible characteristic typical of North Europeans, but this becomes a specific concept derived from an observation when I create the idea that this means there is something called the "Nordic race". The idea that such a thing has a meaningful existence was prominent in the early 20th century. I see no reason to believe that it any longer is, and you have provided zero evidence that it is. I'm not sure what "my kind of people" is, but you created an article on race and tried to maintain the claim that such a race exists. To then accuse others of trying to "racialise" is nonsensical. Paul B (talk) 13:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Undue information is irrelevant, of course I have the right to point this out to people like you: that dare to call Nazi theorists prominent scientists at any time. It is POV to state that only ideology is involved, and since this POV has already found a home in Nordic theory I can see no place for it here, not even within the NPOV policy of representing multiple views. To this has been complied with an explicit reference to Nordic theory. Your racialism impels you to insist on a clear racial concept. There is no concept of the Nordic race, because no clear concept exists of the general denomination "race" to start with. What is the validity of the various races of dogs? The difference between such races lay just in a couple of genes, imagined as "pure". Purity, however, is a human concept, not a concept of nature. There are races of wolves that show much more variability and are mixed like humans, and even though biologists describe these races and draw distribution maps, the underpinning "concept" won't ever be any more than an observation of local variability. You could waist a lot of time in order to plead for or to insist on purity that does not exist (like the nazi's did) or to discuss the validity of the concept of race (politically correct though "maybe" hypocritical), still the real issue should be the encyclopedic importance of the denomination. The "idea that such a thing has a meaningful existence was prominent" in the early 20th century might have some historical importance, though this has been addressed already superfluously in Nordic theory and has no bearing on the current geographical and anthropological interpretation. Within the anthropological concept of multiregionality the local variability is still valuable and cited by prominent scholars. This prominent scholars are not interested at all in the bullshit of Nazi theorists and if they were, they should look for another job and would cease to be prominent by definition. I already offered to look for another name that would be considered politically correct, like "Nordic type" if you think "race" insinuates another thing, even though you insinuate another thing more by quoting Nazi theorists. However, political abuse is not the focus of scientists nor of this article and in my opinion to change the denomination "Nordic race" into something else would be sheer revisionism and dangerous in the hands of racialists, like Nordic theory already gave a new pretext for publishing Nazi bullshit. Not here. Rokus01 (talk) 07:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Your obtuseness is of course well known, but you miss the point entirely. Nazism appropriated a belief that was part of widespread anthropological culture, including the ideas about supposed character differences between races. This was what anthropologists wrote at the time, and Gunther was a prominent one at the time however much you splutter and bluster in your attempts to pretend otherwise. You are trying to exclude references to writers who expressed such views to pursue your own contemptible agenda of sanitising and dehistoricising this concept, and then you have the utter gall to accuse others of pushing a racialist agenda, when you are the only one here who insists on the reality of this "race" and who wishes to make comparisons to the concept of race as applied to the animal kingdom. You cannot insist on something that is not accepted by the current scientific establishment however much you was to argue for it. To do so is WP:OR. As usual your hypocricy is breathtaking. It's not what the phrase "Nordic race" 'insinuates'. It's what it actually means. Paul B (talk) 09:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Nazism appropriated a belief that was part of widespread anthropological culture. Nazism also appropiated barbed wire, uniforms, Wagner, neoclassicist architecture, art and jewels from murdered jews, Nietzsche, trains, factories, young children from their parents, tomatoes, baked potatoes... I am sure you remember those filthy Nazi's with every potato you eat, and spit it out because your conscience don't permit you to sanitise or dehistoricise the potatoes from those filthy Nazi's that ate potatoes. Sure, I will support your struggle to abolish life itself because the Nazi's abused it when still alive. And don't forget to mention that we can't write a proper article without reminding that once the earth was flat, or burn in hell otherwise. I am not sanitising and dehistoricising a concept, I already explained you that this does not apply to an anthropological observation. There are many ways to avoid mentioning Nordic race and still say the same, so if scholars do and say for instance "people north of the Alps", you can be proud of yourself for not having achieved anything. Please reserve your political POV to political articles, I don't think you are telling the truth about your real political inclinations. And what are you talking about, you ignore good references to non-Nazi sources that would say that Nazism and Fascism are from the same gutter, and not just because they also appropiated the same lies. We already talked it over, you still think your POV is more valuable than sourced scholarly references so don't pretend you have the slightest idea of what WP:OR really is. Or of being obtuse, for that sake. Rokus01 (talk) 20:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

When I wrote that Darré was the most prominent proponent of a theory about a Nordic Race, I of course meant, that he was prominent as a Nazi minister and as accused at the Nuremberg Trials. He was not that prominent as an anthropologists. Anyway, he would be a prime example of a race-theorist who considered the Nordic Race to be different from the Ayran race. Since I had previously thought that the article Nordic theory would debate the theories on the question whether the Ayran race had originated in somewhere in Northern Europe, the articles Nordic Race and Nordic theory would debate two different subjects, as most race-theorists considered the Nordic Race to be different from the Aryan race. This is precisely why I had added the sentences to which Rokus01 is objecting here. Now I don't know if the article Nordic theory has been expanded in the meantime, but in its current state, it mostly debates the Nordic race and overlaps with this article, thus giving us a prime example of a POV Fork. I suppose people like Rokus01 want to have an article about a Nordic Race that doesn't mention that speculation about it was also common in Nazi Germany. But - to comfort Rokus01 a little - Darré wasn't one of 'really evil' Nazis. He alone wouldn't have advocated the destruction of the perceived lower races. According to Bramwell, he would only have advocated public eduction about the dangers of 'interbreeding'. And at the Nuremberg trials he used to annoy the prosecution by referring to that American author who wrote about the Nordic Race.

Anyway, this article needs to be merged into Nordic theory. After that is done, I can write a section there on Darré. But probably I am not cynical enough to keep Rokus01 from reverting here, so let's talk about a the merger later. I am not taking ANY political view here, I am just annoyed about Rokus01 because he keeps deleting relevant and reliably sourced information. Zara1709 (talk) 19:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I think here you bascally agree with my opinion that your edits essentially belong to Nordic theory. I don't gather what prevents you from inserting your Darré section there and why you would have to wait for a merger first instead (or rather, Anschluss?). Trolling maybe? However, since you went into some effort to make your point, and want to dedicate a chapter in explaining why Nordic race is not the same as Aryan race hmmm. Personally I think it would serve an article more in explaining what it is all about rather than explaining in what it is not. I already took this for granted with a sourced reference that's already there. Remember there is still another article: Aryan race. And really, the Darré denominations are heavily undue to this article. Rokus01 (talk) 20:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't agree with you opinion that the statement about Darré belongs to Nordic theory. What I said was: In its current state this article is wp:Content forking from Nordic theory. In an article on "Nordic Race" the Nazi theories on "Nordic Race" need to be mentioned. If you want to have an article on a discourse about " North European Phenotypes" that is not connected to the race-theories of a Nordic Race of the first half of the 20th century that would be a different issue. Most likely that would be a case for the Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard. Concerning the article I am going to emphasize it one more time: R.W.Darré had developed a theory of the German peasantry as a Nordic race. This is attributed to a reliable source, and due to the general prominence of R.W.Darré it is in any case relevant. Zara1709 (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You don't have to repeat your erroneous point of view, I already rejected your personal stance more than once. I don't have to argue with someone that on the one hand AGREES that Darré don't qualify as "prominent as an anthropologists" and on the other hand INSISTS that Darré should be mentioned in an essentially anthropological article. It is clear you are not here for a serious discussion. Please stop trolling and don't create an incident. Rokus01 (talk) 08:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

You manage to completely twist my words around. I haven't studied the debate on the Nordic Race in the first half of the 20th century in Detail, so I can not say how "prominent" Darré was in this debate. What I said was, that his opinion is already interesting because he LATER made it Nazi minister. Not mentioning Darré in an article on "Nordic Race" would be like not mentioning Lenin in an article on Social Class. I have not intention to debate whether ideas about a "Nordic Race" are actual biology or just ideological pseudo-science, the same way I don't have the intention to debate whether ideas a "proletarian class struggle" are actual sociology or economics. But at some point in history people that had these ideas got into power, with consequences that are well known. So often when someone puts forward socialist ideas, he is faced with a mentioning of Stalin, and often when someone puts forward ideas of white racism, he is faced with a mentioning of Nazi Germany. But I am not even saying here that the Nordic theories of Darré etc. led to the consequence of The Holocaust, as well as I wouldn't say that the theories of Marxled to the consequence of the Gulag. All I am saying is that a prominent politician had written books on the Nordic race before he came into power. You have to accept it and this has to be included in the article, regardless of whether you call me a "Troll" or a "POV-Pusher" or you demand that I should "Go to the nazi pages please" in the edit summary. Zara1709 (talk) 10:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

This racial concept deserves as much its own article labelled "XYZ race" as do the other historical racial concepts. And then the question is - how far were those specific Nazi ideas accepted in the anthropological scientific community or even had their origin in parts of it? - But it still is only a section in an article on the concept of a Nordic race (as is mentioning Darré whose comparison to Lenin was – I hope not meant seriously or too quick on the trigger).

Otherwise it's acting like - because the Nazis and other Nordic supremacists touched it, it gets special treatment today.

If you absolutely want to delete one of the articles on the Nordic race - take the article "Nordic theory" and put its content into this one - instead of emphasising a detail and blurring the big picture.

The idea of Nordic supremacy is just one aspect of the historical reality.

I added the McDougall quotation to the article "Nordic theory" but did not write its introductory sentence.

McDougall did not talk about a generally "masterly" Nordic race. He simply stated differences between European stocks. I recall that he spoke of higher artistic abilities as a characteristic of the Mediterranean race - doesn't sound like Nordic supremacy to me - and should be hard for you to interpret it in such a way - (if you're a fan of let's say Italian art and not Viking warfare and absolutely want to pick a master race - there you go).

The McDougall quotation makes much more sense in this article - in a neutral paragraph - and mentioning Darré can get its own unimportant section.

217.236.238.88 (talk) 11:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

PS If you still want to delete this article, please provide some arguments that it has less legitimacy than e.g. the articles on the "Dinaric race" and the "Mediterranean race".

No, I did not compare Lenin to Darré. I did compare the situation here at hand. You are claiming that "Nordic Race" is a concept discussed in biological anthropology and not a racist ideology. Well, I can agree that it WAS a concept discussed in biological anthropology (in the first half of the 20th century) and that it was not ONLY a racist ideology. Similarly, social class is a viable sociological concept and NOT ONLY part of the ideology of class struggle. But in both cases you need to mention both aspects. An article that would discuss only one part without mentioning the other would be against wp:NPOV. If you had one article just one the presumed scientific theory and on on the ideology, that would even be wp:content forking. I am under a strong impression that we are dealing in this case (Nordic theory and Nordic Race) with this problem, but I need to take a closer look on it and we can surely discuss it. That is, as soon as User:Rokus01 acknowledges wp:NPOV and wp:Reliable Sources. Zara1709 (talk) 12:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Zara1709, Darré nor any other Nazi source will be considered a reliable source. Neither do Nazi propaganda classify as a valid POV within the multiple points of view meant by NPOV policy. If you want to sell or discuss Nazi stuff and still represent a significant POV, you'll have to find reliable secondary sources of prominent authors and authorities, of recognized institutes like universities or international organizations. If you don't, you'll run the risk of OR or worse, since Nazi propaganda is a serious thing that has to be dealt with. I am open to all kind of discussion, though I don't have the feeling we are on the same level of understanding. You are not familiar to WP policies and don't have any idea of what you have to take into consideration to even propose a merge. You are trying very hard to create some overlap, which would indeed be the minimum requirement to propose such a thing. However, in doing so you are already violating WP:UNDUE to start with, since this article has a clear definition and restriction. There is no case for including content that should be dealt with by other existing articles.Rokus01 (talk) 20:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

... depends on what you call a racist ideology. There are people who even consider the mere mentioning of different races or pondering the possibility to be racism. If one says that a race is generally superior and shall have more rights - I would consider that a racist ideology - and many Nazis certainly turned ideas about the Nordic race into such an ideology – I did not deny that.

I agree that one has to mention both aspects – it's important though to try to give them the weight they deserve. At this point I think a wrong light is for example shed on McDougall.

Apropos Darré - I read a lot about that era and am certain that Darré played a very minor role in Nazi ideology. Were his ideas accepted or even taken seriously by Günther et.al.?

Well, I repeat myself – I think this article should be kept and some parts of the Nordic theory article included here. And it should be tried to point out and make clear the difference from the very beginning between those who saw the Nordic race simply as exhibiting certain characteristics and those who saw them as generally superior. And even if one of the early proponents calls them better warriors does not make him a Nordic supremacist.

217.236.238.88 (talk) 17:07, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

@Rokus01: You are not being serious here, are you? I am not taking Darré, nor any Nazi propaganda, as a source for anything. After all, I am very far from proposing that Darré's theory of the German peasantry as a Nordic race is correct (scientifically or factually), I am only insisting that he had such a theory. Do you get the difference? However, since I apparently can not ask you to read Bramwell yourself, here is a weblink to a German library entry for a book of Darré . I know you can read German. If the link for some reason does not work, go to http://p7.gbv.de and search for "Darré, Richard Walther" yourself. Since Darré wrote a book titled: "Das Bauerntum als Lebensquell der nordischen Rasse" (The Peasantry as Live-Spring of the Nordic Race), you cannot possibly want to argue about this.

217.236.238.88 (talk, I hope we can discuss the general issue of this article in a civil atmosphere , as soon as this particular issue is over. Personally, I don't think that one can separate theories on the difference between races from theories that presume that one race is superior to other. Because the differences are either totally meaningless (skin colour, hair colour, eye colour) or the bring in superiority in another slight way, which already starts in cases when someone supposes that certain races are better fit for certain sports. Zara1709 (talk) 11:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course you are taking Darré as a source, albeit indirect for abusing quotes of Bramwell. The quotes are uttely out of context, you don't spent one word on the opinion of Bramwell, or on how she relates the work of Darré to the historical context, and ignore the purpose of the book. If you like to play the game like this, and abuse NPOV sources to convey your nazi POV and then think this article can serve as a platform to such ideas, then you are very naive: WP:RS also protects Misplaced Pages from extremist sources: . 'Using' reliable sources don't mean abusing' reliable sources. Also, quoting sources utterly out of context is a violation of WP:SYNC.Rokus01 (talk) 15:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

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