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Revision as of 18:11, 15 March 2008 by Black Kite (talk | contribs) (Closing debate; result was Delete)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Delete. I was going to suggest Merge to Grayson Space Navy, but it's already been done, and no-one is going to be typing in this article name as a search. What I have done, though, is to alter the High Admiral dab page to direct the reader to the above. Black Kite 18:11, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
High Admiral (Honorverse)
- High Admiral (Honorverse) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)
A fictional rank whose definition is apparent from name, unsourced, non-notable plot summary. No independent notability (WP:N), does not follow WP:WAF. Written from a in universe perspective. (Was a prod, but has previously been deleted via prod.) Zginder 12:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Delete per nom; non-notable. FWIW, I prod-2'd this. I had not seen the prior article or looked at the log. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Merge into Grayson Space Navy or related article. Slideshow Bob (talk) 15:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Delete(or Merge) - I loved the books, and I'm pleased to see the series well represented here, but this seems too much like cruft for my tastes. It would work better as a line or two as per Slideshow Bob's suggestion. - Bilby (talk) 15:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)- Comment - I hadn't noticed the age of the article, which was foolish of me: I should have checked. I would normally recommend more time for an article. My problem is that while the position is a central one to the novels (the various High Admirals play significant roles in many of the books), and thus having a mention of the role makes sense, I would have thought that it was the characters who held the role that were really significant. Given this I can see a merge making sense, but I can't see this article growing into much beyond a paragraph or two, unless it cannibalizes (or duplicates) material which would be better placed in the discussions of the characters. And if it can't grow, then maybe it should be part of Grayson Space Navy. - Bilby (talk) 23:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Merge into Grayson Space Navy or related article. Great books.--Doug Weller (talk) 15:55, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Keep per notability and verfiability and consistency with a specialized encyclopedia on Honorverse. Delete "rationales" seem to be Misplaced Pages:ITSCRUFT and Misplaced Pages:PERNOM. Also, the article is only TWO DAYS old and has been improved since then. We should allow editors more than just two days to build an article, especially because Misplaced Pages does not have a deadline. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 17:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- The entire article says, "High Admiral is the rank of the Military Commander of the Grayson Space Navy." Well duh, an Admiral is the rank of the Military Commander in navies. The rest of the article talks about Wesley Matthews who could have his own page that could say the same thing. Therefore it is " fictional rank whose definition is apparent from name" Zginder 18:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- The article is a mere two days old. We should not expect it to have to be more than a stub but two days after its creation. Look at how this article looked when first created versus its Mario current version. It usually takes time for editors to write and revise good articles. Two days is not a reasonable amount of time to allow readers for something that does not have a deadline. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- How are we to find articles that should be deleted if not new page patrol? Random article patrol is to random to be effective and many of the articles that need to be deleted are orphaned, uncategorized, and not marked for clean up. Zginder 18:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- New page patrol is for hoaxes, personal attacks, and copy vios, or otherwise nonsense articles. An article that is a stub and is not an obvious hoax, not a copy vio, not a personal attack deserves time to possible expand. There is no "need" to delete this particular article. We are here to write a comprehensive encyclopedia, not find articles to delete. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Let's see. On March 8th, the same person created new pages for six different classes of ships from the Honorverse. And with comments such as 'We can assume', and '(Note: At this time, the SLN should be considered 2nd class. They don't have anywhere near the firepower represented by a pod-laying ship. This could be subject to change if the SLN woke up and smelled the proverbial coffee.)' I can't recall, but I think there are some more classes. And all the planets. Etc. I think I have every book, but this is getting ridiculous.--Doug Weller (talk) 18:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- That reads more like a case of Misplaced Pages:SOFIXIT than AfD, though. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- They are all already covered in various other articles. If this isn't, it should be.--Doug Weller (talk) 18:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Then, that would mean that we would merge and redirect the article without deleting it. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 19:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- No, then, the article has no usable information and should be deleted. Zginder 20:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- I see no rationale for an outright deletion in this case, i.e. a decsive decision that could benefit the project. Regards, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 22:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- What article would we redirect to? Zginder 23:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Honorverse, List of Rankings, or something. I'm sure we could come up with something reasonable, but again, the young age of the article still strikes me as we should give editors some time to definitively indicate that no sources are to be found before just writing it off. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 00:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- If an article should not be on Misplaced Pages why do it matter that that it has only been degrading Misplaced Pages or a few days instead of years? Zginder 00:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- I really don't think stubs actually degrade Misplaced Pages. We humans have reached a stage in our development where just about anything has some kind of sources on it and as our population continues to grow, so does the segments of the population that finds any random topic or aspect of a larger topic notable. Even if the article never improved, its existence does not somehow detract from an article on say Basset hounds or Napoleon. Because Misplaced Pages is paperless, we don't have to worry about the same presentational issues that face a book. But even then, you take a printed encyclopedia (say The Harper Encyclopedia of Military Biography) and you'll have maybe a page on Alexander or Caesar and only one sentence on some less well-known general, but that doesn't mean that the guy who gets one sentence is necessarily "unencyclopedic" or that the overall quality of that book is rendered less than it would be without that sentence. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 00:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- I do not think that stubs degrade Misplaced Pages rather that articles that only state the obvious, that can be easy derived from other articles by using common sense, degrade Misplaced Pages. I can see it now: "Do you know why Misplaced Pages has over 2.5 million articles?" "No, why" "Because they have articles that only say: 'High Admiral is the rank of the Military Commander of the Grayson Space Navy.'" "Well duh, an Admiral is the rank of the Military Commander in navies. Misplaced Pages the fraud!"
- I'm not too worried about anyone who wants to criticize WIkipedia for having such articles. I'm far more concerned that we do not discourage editors from contributing by deleting their good faith contributions or diminish our ability to catalog human knowledge. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 03:06, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- I do not think that stubs degrade Misplaced Pages rather that articles that only state the obvious, that can be easy derived from other articles by using common sense, degrade Misplaced Pages. I can see it now: "Do you know why Misplaced Pages has over 2.5 million articles?" "No, why" "Because they have articles that only say: 'High Admiral is the rank of the Military Commander of the Grayson Space Navy.'" "Well duh, an Admiral is the rank of the Military Commander in navies. Misplaced Pages the fraud!"
- I really don't think stubs actually degrade Misplaced Pages. We humans have reached a stage in our development where just about anything has some kind of sources on it and as our population continues to grow, so does the segments of the population that finds any random topic or aspect of a larger topic notable. Even if the article never improved, its existence does not somehow detract from an article on say Basset hounds or Napoleon. Because Misplaced Pages is paperless, we don't have to worry about the same presentational issues that face a book. But even then, you take a printed encyclopedia (say The Harper Encyclopedia of Military Biography) and you'll have maybe a page on Alexander or Caesar and only one sentence on some less well-known general, but that doesn't mean that the guy who gets one sentence is necessarily "unencyclopedic" or that the overall quality of that book is rendered less than it would be without that sentence. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 00:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- If an article should not be on Misplaced Pages why do it matter that that it has only been degrading Misplaced Pages or a few days instead of years? Zginder 00:16, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Honorverse, List of Rankings, or something. I'm sure we could come up with something reasonable, but again, the young age of the article still strikes me as we should give editors some time to definitively indicate that no sources are to be found before just writing it off. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 00:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- What article would we redirect to? Zginder 23:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- I see no rationale for an outright deletion in this case, i.e. a decsive decision that could benefit the project. Regards, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 22:38, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- No, then, the article has no usable information and should be deleted. Zginder 20:26, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Then, that would mean that we would merge and redirect the article without deleting it. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 19:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- They are all already covered in various other articles. If this isn't, it should be.--Doug Weller (talk) 18:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- That reads more like a case of Misplaced Pages:SOFIXIT than AfD, though. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Let's see. On March 8th, the same person created new pages for six different classes of ships from the Honorverse. And with comments such as 'We can assume', and '(Note: At this time, the SLN should be considered 2nd class. They don't have anywhere near the firepower represented by a pod-laying ship. This could be subject to change if the SLN woke up and smelled the proverbial coffee.)' I can't recall, but I think there are some more classes. And all the planets. Etc. I think I have every book, but this is getting ridiculous.--Doug Weller (talk) 18:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- New page patrol is for hoaxes, personal attacks, and copy vios, or otherwise nonsense articles. An article that is a stub and is not an obvious hoax, not a copy vio, not a personal attack deserves time to possible expand. There is no "need" to delete this particular article. We are here to write a comprehensive encyclopedia, not find articles to delete. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:25, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- How are we to find articles that should be deleted if not new page patrol? Random article patrol is to random to be effective and many of the articles that need to be deleted are orphaned, uncategorized, and not marked for clean up. Zginder 18:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- The article is a mere two days old. We should not expect it to have to be more than a stub but two days after its creation. Look at how this article looked when first created versus its Mario current version. It usually takes time for editors to write and revise good articles. Two days is not a reasonable amount of time to allow readers for something that does not have a deadline. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 18:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Delete, this isn't even notable within the book series. It's just a fictional job description and doesn't further our understanding. Blast Ulna (talk) 01:07, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Does it differ from other kinds of admirals? If so, it furthers our undertsnading. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 01:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- No, it does not. Blast Ulna (talk) 01:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Even then the decision would be to merge/redirect without deleting. There is absolutely no compelling reason to delete and certainly no benefit to our project by doing so. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 01:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- This line of argumentation you are using it part of your larger agenda to save all fiction-related articles. As such, it violates the spirit of the arbcom ruling. Blast Ulna (talk) 02:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- So are you saying that you have a larger agenda to delete all fiction-related articles in violation of the arbcom ruling? Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 03:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Blast Ulna is clearly not saying that, and I am sure you know it. This argument is ridiculous. The it about the High Admiral should be in the Grayson Space Navy article. It fits there logically and rounds it out and as far as I am concerned, as an Honorverse fan, that works better for me. Now I may have just transgressed against protocal and if so I'll undo it, but Misplaced Pages:SOFIXIT was mentioned, and so in that spirit (I think)--Doug Weller (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC) I have incorporated the bit about the High Admiral into the Grayson Space Navy article, something which I think it should have included anyway.
- Comments he made in the ArbCom case suggest such ideology on his part. If you believe that this information can be successfully merged and the article redirected without deletion, I would support such efforts as a fair and reasonable compromise. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I think it is worth noting that I have a mix of delete, merge and keep comments at AfD, whereas Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles consistently argues to keep every article that he has ever seen, and (worse) argues endlessly, as can be seen here. This behavior must stop, as it is disruptive. Blast Ulna (talk) 12:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. Your dishonestly and misrepresentation of facts needs to stop immediately as do your weak arguments. For the record, I actually argue to delete a good deal of articles, consider yesterday alone: , , , , , etc., i.e. at least five delete arguments I made in a row. I prefer spending my time improving articles and spreading Wiki-love by welcoming new users and making other positive contributions, which has netted me a good deal of nice feedback and support (see here and here). As far as discussing thoroughly in AfDs, well, there's a reason we no longer call it "Votes" for Deletion. We are encouraged to discuss the articles' merits. Spirited disucssion is perfectly acceptable and should not be squashed. There's plenty of times I may disagree with someone, even strongly, as others do with me, but that doesn't mean at the end of the day we aren't "cool" with each and ultimately respectful. In any event, I urge you to stick to the topic at hand and not distract from it with inaccurate Ad hominem mistatements. If you wish to discuss the article constructively, then that's what we do in AfD, or at least are suspposed to do. If you wish to make mean and dishonest comments about others, refrain from doing so. And on one last note, if you ever want help improving, referencing, and expanding an article, let me know as that's why we're here, not to diminish our collection of human knowledge, but to catalog it in the most effective means possible. Anyway, to get back on focus, I still think the article can be either saved or merged into an article on Honorverse rankings. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 15:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- Update: Apparently the above post I made has borne fruit! Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. Your dishonestly and misrepresentation of facts needs to stop immediately as do your weak arguments. For the record, I actually argue to delete a good deal of articles, consider yesterday alone: , , , , , etc., i.e. at least five delete arguments I made in a row. I prefer spending my time improving articles and spreading Wiki-love by welcoming new users and making other positive contributions, which has netted me a good deal of nice feedback and support (see here and here). As far as discussing thoroughly in AfDs, well, there's a reason we no longer call it "Votes" for Deletion. We are encouraged to discuss the articles' merits. Spirited disucssion is perfectly acceptable and should not be squashed. There's plenty of times I may disagree with someone, even strongly, as others do with me, but that doesn't mean at the end of the day we aren't "cool" with each and ultimately respectful. In any event, I urge you to stick to the topic at hand and not distract from it with inaccurate Ad hominem mistatements. If you wish to discuss the article constructively, then that's what we do in AfD, or at least are suspposed to do. If you wish to make mean and dishonest comments about others, refrain from doing so. And on one last note, if you ever want help improving, referencing, and expanding an article, let me know as that's why we're here, not to diminish our collection of human knowledge, but to catalog it in the most effective means possible. Anyway, to get back on focus, I still think the article can be either saved or merged into an article on Honorverse rankings. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 15:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment I think it is worth noting that I have a mix of delete, merge and keep comments at AfD, whereas Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles consistently argues to keep every article that he has ever seen, and (worse) argues endlessly, as can be seen here. This behavior must stop, as it is disruptive. Blast Ulna (talk) 12:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comments he made in the ArbCom case suggest such ideology on his part. If you believe that this information can be successfully merged and the article redirected without deletion, I would support such efforts as a fair and reasonable compromise. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Blast Ulna is clearly not saying that, and I am sure you know it. This argument is ridiculous. The it about the High Admiral should be in the Grayson Space Navy article. It fits there logically and rounds it out and as far as I am concerned, as an Honorverse fan, that works better for me. Now I may have just transgressed against protocal and if so I'll undo it, but Misplaced Pages:SOFIXIT was mentioned, and so in that spirit (I think)--Doug Weller (talk) 08:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC) I have incorporated the bit about the High Admiral into the Grayson Space Navy article, something which I think it should have included anyway.
- So are you saying that you have a larger agenda to delete all fiction-related articles in violation of the arbcom ruling? Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 03:05, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- This line of argumentation you are using it part of your larger agenda to save all fiction-related articles. As such, it violates the spirit of the arbcom ruling. Blast Ulna (talk) 02:17, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Even then the decision would be to merge/redirect without deleting. There is absolutely no compelling reason to delete and certainly no benefit to our project by doing so. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 01:25, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- No, it does not. Blast Ulna (talk) 01:20, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Delete as lacking evidence of notability vie reliable sourcing. — pd_THOR | 19:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see any evidence that it isn't notable or that sources don't exist. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 19:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Please show us that you aren't really trolling by providing sources that show that it is notable. If that isn't what you meant, then you really are trolling.--Doug Weller (talk) 21:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- I urge you to remember to assume good faith. As I say on my user page, I do not feed the trolls. Anyway, check here. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 21:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- Please show us that you aren't really trolling by providing sources that show that it is notable. If that isn't what you meant, then you really are trolling.--Doug Weller (talk) 21:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see any evidence that it isn't notable or that sources don't exist. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 19:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- The High Admiral information is now where it should be, part of the Grayson Space Navy article, it doesn't need an article of its own.--Doug Weller (talk) 16:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- Then if we merged it, we need to redirect this article without deleting it per the GFDL. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- The High Admiral information is now where it should be, part of the Grayson Space Navy article, it doesn't need an article of its own.--Doug Weller (talk) 16:50, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
- Delete per nom. and Blast Ulna. Given that the information is in Grayson Space Navy I can't see the need for a redirect: someone anxious to know about Honorverse High Admirals will surely be able to find the information. JohnCD (talk) 10:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment Just as a minor procedural point, the article was merged with Grayson Space Navy during the AfD debate. I'm not sure if that was wise, nor what it means for the AfD process. Thus there may still be a case for redirect (or even keep), although, as you say, people will find it there either way. - Bilby (talk) 11:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- I admitted doing that above somewhere, probably twice. Many apologies if that broke protocol. I do think it belongs there no matter what else happens, but if you aren't supposed to touch an article related to an AfD debate, I made a mistake and would be happy to undo it if no one else wants to.--Doug Weller (talk) 12:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment If I understand things correctly, the guidelines don't specifically prohibit duplicating the content during the AfD process - so long as you mention that you did so (you did) and that you are ready to delete it from the new location, should consensus decide to delete. My only concern here is the "it duplicates existing material" argument, when it didn't duplicate existing material when the AfD was started. :) I'm happy with merge, and would rather it was left in Grayson Space Navy, as per JohnCD and others. - Bilby (talk) 12:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- This is hardly a minor point as it undermines this whole process. If this article is deleted, I will be sure to remove the copy per this discussion. Cheers, Jack Merridew 13:08, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- I admitted doing that above somewhere, probably twice. Many apologies if that broke protocol. I do think it belongs there no matter what else happens, but if you aren't supposed to touch an article related to an AfD debate, I made a mistake and would be happy to undo it if no one else wants to.--Doug Weller (talk) 12:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- Comment Just as a minor procedural point, the article was merged with Grayson Space Navy during the AfD debate. I'm not sure if that was wise, nor what it means for the AfD process. Thus there may still be a case for redirect (or even keep), although, as you say, people will find it there either way. - Bilby (talk) 11:29, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- Since I said I would, I don't see the problem. If it is not prohibted and I publicly said I did it, I don't really see how it could have undermined the whole process. Which is a real tempest in a teapot (IMHO of course) which is why I did what I did.--Doug Weller (talk) 13:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- The need for the redirect is, due to the merge, the GFDL. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 16:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.