Talk:Tucker Max - Misplaced Pages

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Previous deletion debate

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POV

I'm not familiar with the subject, but this article is pretty blatantly non-neutral. It has three paragraphs, two of which are 'Controversies' and 'Legal troubles'; whereas it says virtually nothing about the man's actual work, or why he is famous. At the moment, it looks a lot like a Misplaced Pages:Attack page; I'm going to assume good faith and assume it wasn't created as such, but it needs serious improvement to reach the minimum standard for biographies of living people. If no such improvement is made to the article in the next week or two, I'll probably just reduce it to a stub, and possibly nominate it for deletion. As it is now, this article is simply not acceptable under Misplaced Pages's policies. Terraxos (talk) 23:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I am the one who keeps posting the Controversies section. I am not posting it as a form of attack, but rather information. The article lists his work as nonfiction. Given the James Frey situation, I believe that a "nonfiction writer" who passes off fiction as fact is notable. I am not posting it as an attack, I am posting it as true information. A lot of the complaints (which have only recently been explained to me) about it not being extensively sourced. There are several cases where his truthfulness is argued, and even proven at times with information about places that are not relevant or insightful criticisms of the veracity of the stories. Many of these sources seem very well researched pools of information, but they are oftentimes put in blog format, etc. As such none of the information from those articles is included in what I add. The one source that is a print publication that pokes several holes in one of his stories. I'm told that this information needs to be "extensively sourced", but all the information is from the one article stating those facts about locations and information about the different bars. Do I need to add a REF tag after each piece of information even if it's to the same page? I have, until this point, assumed the removing of my Controversies section has been by pro-Tucker vandals (or perhaps Tucker himself) but now I'm just not sure what the requirement for this information is. But I must say that I do firmly believe it to be relevant to a complete and comprehensive article about this man. TheArnieC (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 00:49, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The problems are two or threefold.

1) You're quoting the story wrong. The manager of the restaurant manager wasn't even there the night it supposedly happened and the employee that refutes it has only worked there 3 years--after the event is claimed to have taken place. So right there it's a non-starter. Having a source is great, the source just has to make sense.

2) As per the WP: BOLP, we err on the side of caution. Always. That means if we are going to post criticism it has to be beyond a reasonable doubt true, sourced extensively, no original research, no weasel words, etc. For instance, if you wanted to add that he was a drunk driver and you had a news story detailing his arrest for a DUI, that would be fine. But vague things like "his stories might not be true" need to have HARD FACTS behind them or it is not appropriate for Misplaced Pages. Go ahead and put them on a web forum or whatever--you could be right, who knows?--but they do not fit the set regulations of Misplaced Pages.

That is why the controversy section counts as vandalism. Posting it over and over again is inappropriate. Not only is it just factually wrong but it violates the standard Misplaced Pages holds itself to.

TheRegicider (talk) 01:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Article Issues

I haven't contributed much to this article, but I've been watching it for over a year.

The problem this article has is that Tucker Max's anti-fans are so loathingly contemptuous of him that they feel that the article being anything other than an attack page would be unencyclopedic. The recently archived talk page has several examples of editors determined to keep the article as short as possible as an insult to Tucker.

True, the article was at one point overrun with Tucker's fans who wanted to document message board minutae, but that problem went away a long time ago. Now it's just a few people trying to hold the wolves away from the door.

I haven't messed with this article because trying to do anything with it is like stepping into a hornet's nest.

Without an admin to state, and enforce, the unencyclopedic-ness of certain things that the vandals and, for lack of a better term, "haters", insist on contributing, will never be respected. Case in point - a back and forth war over the controversies section caused the article to be protected. And two weeks later, the two sides have't even attempted to initiate a discussion. What little of a discussion there was, was there before the article was protected.

Get an admin in here to sort some things out.

Then compile what needs to be mentioned about Tucker, good and bad. And since things are so argued over that a single change causes 20 edits in the article, hammer out what's going to be included on the talk page before adding it.

As a final comment, I'd like to suggest permanent semi-protection for the article so that randoms can't anonymously vandalize. McJeff (talk) 04:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

fix the link

in the bibliography there is a dead link to 'i hope they serve beer in hell', however, the book does have its own page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.242.198.91 (talk) 01:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Film

It should be announced that Max has a film in pre-production. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.197.70.15 (talk) 20:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

OPIE AND ANTHONY

why did someone remove the reference to tucker's disastrous and controversial appearance on opie and anthony? they basically outed him as a fraud and he was seemingly humiliated, enough to never mention the appearance on his website or message board again. i find it suspicious that this article no longer mentions the situation —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theserialcomma (talk • contribs) 00:34, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Because there is this thing called WP:BLP, also known as Biographies of Living Persons, stating that defamatory statements must be aggressively removed from the article unless impeccable sourcing can be found. And so far, no one has managed to find any sourcing better than "some guys blog" referring to the event. Therefore, it will not be added unless someone can do it properly, which no one who wants the information included in the article has been willing to do. McJeff (talk) 03:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

would a direct link to a video of the interview be sufficient? it is strange that it is claimed that sources are hard to find, because if one were to simply google "tucker max opie and anthony," the first hit would be a link with HTTP://WWW.FOUNDRYMUSIC.COM/opieanthony/displaymedia.cfm/div/opieanthony/id/11955/media_search/opieanthony/page/download_Tucker_Max_Spins_Yarns_with_Opie_and_Anth ony.html and HTTP://WWW.FOUNDRYMUSIC.COM/opieanthony/displaymedia.cfm/div/opieanthony/id/11956/media_search/opieanthony/page/download_Tucker_Max_and_the_Old_mics_not_working_t rick.html, which are direct links to opie and anthony's official website and the official interview in question. If you watch the official interview on the opie and anthony website, the information posted about the video states "Tucker Max came to the Opie and Anthony show to tell some of his OUTRAGEOUS stories...that most of us think...are bullshit. Thanks to Jon for capturing the gratuitous fabrication on tape, and for going to the store and getting the shovels to dig out of Tucker's bullshit stories." So is directly from the original source good enough? Or is there a better source you were seeking? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theserialcomma (talk • contribs) 01:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

If you want it included, you have to be careful to not include defamatory language. I'm not a Tucker Fan (rather, I quit being one after reading BC Woods version of why he quit contributing to the "Daddy Don't Hit Me" Rudius Media website), but I don't believe that there is reason for this to be an attack piece either. Anti-Tucker resources are plentiful the net over - this should be a neutral piece of information about what Tucker actually is, not what he says about himself or what people with a vested interest in discrediting him say.

There is also a wikipedia policy called "Undue weight", see also WP:UNDUE. It would be inappropriate to make an inordinate issue about Tucker's appearance on Opie and Anthony. Yes, it happened, and it should be mentioned, but that is all.

So the language you would want to use would be something like this. Tucker appeared on the Opie and Anthony show to promote his book "I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell". During the course of the show he was accused of lying and compared to James Frey. There is currently no mention of the incident on tuckermax.com."

As I said, I'm a former fan turned relatively neutral towards Tucker Max and I'd be glad to help make the section meet the guidelines on biographies of living people, but until it does it should not be included in the article. McJeff (talk) 23:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It was highly inappropriate for you to delete the entire 'controversy' section and remove all mention of it. Stop acting in bad faith. Your history of liking or disliking Tucker Max is irrelevant. If you wanted to edit my change to be more fair, you should have done so. You should not have deleted everything. That is vandalism. I am going to add the changes again with more neutral language this time (my previous addition, which you deleted, was from a previous edit, and not my own). Hopefully you will like the new edit and instead of deleting everything, you will contribute to the article. Do not vandalize more articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.224.173 (talk) 04:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I contribute to the article by preventing your inappropriate edits from standing, and I suggest you go learn what vandalism is. McJeff (talk) 12:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

In your own talk page you state "I also believe that deletionism often borderlines on vandalism" and "hardcore deletionism is vandalism." And then you deleted the entire controversy section. Very strange. Instead of deleting everything, which is vandalism by your own definition, you should have modified the questionable passage so that it was more satisfactory, and that way you would be contributing much more than just removing an entire section that you even agree should exist. I ask you to please correct your mistake. I could do it, but you would probably just revert it again and send me another nasty message. Please don't message me anymore and just just fix your mistake. You were off to a good start with your suggestion that sounded less biased. Just add that and we can work from there. The passage I tried to add was supposed to be a starting point, to be edited and revised. Instead you just deleted everything. Not helpful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theserialcomma (talk • contribs) 18:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Based on the history page, 1) you haven't contributed anything, and 2) the only thing that was contributed was the same old inappropriate BLP-violating paragraph by an anonymous IP, which was justifiably reverted. For starters, if you're going to edit the article, you ought to do so while logged in.

Since you appear to be a new wikipedian, I'm going to assume good faith and point a few things out. First is WP:AGF, it stands for assume good faith, which you ought to be doing. Second is Deletionism on WikiMedia, which if you read it, you'll find it refers to including articles themselves on wikipedia rather than specific sections within articles. Claiming that I am a hypocrite for calling myself an inclusionist while reverting your BLP violation is factually wrong. McJeff (talk) 18:55, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for asking something irrelevant, but where can I find the 'BC Woods version of why he quit contributing to the "Daddy Don't Hit Me" Rudius Media website'? I want to read it. GeorgeMillo (talk) 20:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

It was in a post on the Freak Safari forum. I'll see if I can find it again. But the basic story is that Tucker tried to force BC into working as a prison guard so he could contribute to Fire on the Line, then stiffed him in ad revenue for the sight, and when BC complained, he fired him. Also dunno if you know but BC has a new site, dunceuponatime.com McJeff (talk) 20:46, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the post. McJeff (talk) 21:00, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

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