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"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for leaving a note. I don't think it should be a problem. The Behnam 05:06, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Ethnic Kashmiris look very different compared to the normal populous of India. They have light skin, hair color ranges from red to light brown and have eye colors ranging from blue to brown. Gujjars and Dogri found towards the south in Jammu are of darker skin tone and resemble their Punjabi neighbors whilst the Ladakhis of the North East resemble their Tibetan neighbors.
The reason why I removed the above extract was because I deemed it irrelevant; this article is not a comparison of two ethnic groups. Also, no reference has been provided.
I have removed certain aspects because, being a student of the discipline of History, I find it extremely insensitive to reach theories and conclusions without confirming the people involved. In this issue in particular, I felt that the Kashmiris from the western section of Kashmir- known as Azad Kashmir would not agree to the least with some of the mumble jumble that recent theorists have conjured together, in somewhat a discriminative way. It would help to ask the Azad Kashmir peoples to tell us a little about their culture and history; they are a people of their own identity, they know better about their history than we do, ratherthan make up what we'd like to hear or makes sense to us, you cannot let you imagination loose upon such subjects and allow it to get the better of oneself.
Kashmir history
The western part of Kashmir, known as Azad Kashmir was only part of kashmir for 100 years, Jammu for just over 150, ladakh, Baltistan and Gilgit Agency also for over 150 years. When talking about 'Kashmiri people' most in my opinion refer to 'ethnic kashmiris' who ONLY occupy the Valley of Kashmir (Indian occupied). Historically Kashmir has only been the Kashmir Valley (for 2000+ years). To my understanding they are culturaly/linguistically/geneticaly different to the rest and are the only 'ethnic kashmiris'. I propose that this article focus more on them as they are the ones who have been 'Kashmiri' for over 2000 years and not the Ladakhis,Baltis,Mirpuris,Azad kashmiris. It has been referenced that the Azad kashmiri people are mainly Punjabi and Gujjar/Pahari which are also considered as castes of Punjabi. Whereas the kashmiris of the Valley are very distintcly different. The history of the Azad kashmiris is visible in their linguists/cultural heritage, and it has a very large affinity to Punjabis. So as the Human rights watch reference states, they are Punjabi peoples who have a very rich history seperate to that of the Kashmiris in the Valley.
Difference between 'Ethnicity' and 'Nationality'
I think the problem here is that people from the current day 'Azad kashmir' refer to them as Kashmiris as an ethnicity which they are not. They are Kashmiri only by citizenship, but as the state of Kashmir does not exist it should not be applied to them. The people from the Valley however are ethnic kashmiris, with kashmiri being their identity. So perhaps they feel threatened by the highjacking of their identity by Punjabis of Azad Kashmir who falsely claim Kashmiri heritage. The land known as Azad Kashmir was only made part of Kashmir after the Treaty of Amritsar was signed.
Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors
I am an ethnic Kashmiri from the Vale of Kashmir, speaking Koshur and I think you are being prejudiced, there has always been a link with our fellow Kashmiris, who speak Pahari and are not Punjabi, they speak differently. I don't know much about anthropology, but you cannot say whatever may be the case I know they're not Punjabi, Its like saying the Scots are English, even though they both speak English, yet the Azad Kashmir people speak Pahari and the Punjabis speak Punjabi/Potohari. I sometimes wonder if these people with weird theories about the fellow Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir still think that the world is flat too. Some theories say Koshur is indo-Aryan anyway http://www.koshur.org/ , just like the Kasmiris in Azad Kashmir speak Pahari which is an Indo Aryan language too. Please research further with proper resources, I want us to be clear.
You are a traitor who considers pahari speaking population of so called azad kashmir as "kashmiris". Just visit an area in azad kashmir and have a look at their language and culture, then go to the neighbouring areas of pakistani punjab and you will notice that these so called kashmiris of so called azad kashmir are plain punjabis. They have same ethnical surnames and roots like rajput, jatt or gujjar. Actually you jack pots who live in kashmir valley do not know about the ground realities of the area which is called azad kashmir for no reason´.
Reply to the previous post / Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors
What a piece of sublime nonsense I say! Now this debate about linguistics has led to the accusation that I am a "traitor". I made a suggestion to further the discussion- a varied collection of arguments, sources and evidence is what creates a good debate, some pride amongst some of us cannot allow us to ignore or fail to consider certain arguments, this is not good heritage history- rather this is one sided pride.
Further to your discussion about "Plain Punjabis"- well I beg to disagree, they that is to say the Azad Kashmiris, may share certain aspects of culture, linguistics or history with the Punjab but that does not make them "Plain Punjabis". At this point it may be of some use for me to ask you just what exactly makes you claim that the Punjabis are "Plain"? I always have regarded them to be a rich cultured people, not very "plain" at all.
Coming back to my line of argument, similarities cannot allow us to make sweeping generalisations, some Azad Kashmiris may well be from the Punjab but now reside in Azad Kashmir, whereas others are from Kashmir, I know many of our people who currently reside in AK. Now this leads me to argue, if I may that these people are somewhat distinct though related to both sides of the borders, in some cases more closely to the Punjabis and in others to the residents of the Vale.
Further to your claim ( without evidence that is to say) "area which is called azad kashmir for no reason", well most things happen for a reason, and this area was called "Azad Kashmir" as it was free or rather independant from the other section of Kashmir, Further issues upon this matter are debated, yet my point is not to go into such detail as you stated "no reason" and this proves to you but one reason, which thus discredits your argument.
Further to your hurling of insults at me by the nature of your use of words "Jackpots", I shall say little of this matter, as this is the method of speech and ill argument of a very unstable and unwise mind, I suggest, if I may that you keep such abuses to your ownself in future if you wish to be considered in a debate of this sort. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.208.64 (talk) 19:50, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Re. Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors
I think this article needs to be better set out. Kashmiri people consist of Gujjars/Pahari people from the Poonch district, ethnic kashmiris from the Valley and small communities in Jammu, the Dogras of Jammu, the Mirpuris of Azad Kashmir, Sudhuns of Muzafrabad, Ladakhis, Baltistani people, Gilgit agency people. It would probably be better if all these peoples had their own sub headings, that is if we are to talk about people who used to live in the former Princely state of Kashmir.
Although it is undecided whether koshur is Indo-Aryan or not, a language classification can not be used to determine ethnicity. Bengali, Gujarati, Punjabi are all Indo-Aryan languages, but are very different people. Also some classify Pahari as a dialect of Punjabi, but again a language can not be used to determine ethnicity.
More resources are contributors are needed.
Yes it is hundred percent true that a language cannot always be associated with the ethnicity of people. But in a region like south asia, languages especially smaller languages do describe the ethnicity of the people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.69.21.94 (talk) 16:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Did Alexander go to Azad Kashmir?
I have come to realise that at around 50 percent of the people I know from Azad Kashmir, tend to be very European looking ( lighter eyes/hair), especially those from Mirpur... is it due to the Greek influence, or some other influence? Also did Alexander reach the other side of Kashmir, I also speak Koshur and wanted to know is there any outside influence upon our language, e.g from any past empires?
I would be very grateful if you could answer this.
Dardic contest
While looking through the source that the IP who keeps adding "Dear Editor" sections added, I can't see why describing Kashmiri as "Dardic" is such a problem. You (IP editor) have claimed that it should say "Aryan" instead, and I was guessing that by "Aryan" you meant something like "Indo-Aryan" since that use of "Aryan" would not be correct. Anyway, the very source that you provided describes "Dardic" and an Indo-Aryan language, so I have no idea what the problem is here. The Behnam 17:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
RE: Did Alexander go to Pakistan-Administered Kashmir (Azad Kashmir)?
Pakistan Administerd Kashmir during the time of Alexander the Great was not a Part of Kashmir (Kashmira), it come under Gandhara. Due to it's location, Kashmir was relatively safe from invasions until the Moguls. There were however recorded mass migrations into the Kashmir valley from Khorasan, Tajikistan and other parts of Central Asia which brought the likes of Saint Bulbul Shah a Turkic Sufi saint into Kashmir, he is the first Saint of the Kashmir valley and brought Islam into Kashmir.
The People of Pakistan Administered Kashmir vary, the southern Mirpur region is very flat and hot and the people are ethnically the same as the Jammuites of Jammu in Indian Administered Kashmir. Whilst the Northern Neelum Valley people are more akin to the Balti and Kashmiri People due to the close proximity, the very high altitude and alpine climate. As far as looks and complexion goes, I'll quote from the Jammu & Kashmir state website;
Valley Kashmiris
"Most of the people in the valley are fair-complexioned, with light brown hair, blue or grey eyes, chiseled features and fine physique. There are also people with a whitish complexion, black almond eyes and black hair. The Kashmiris, on the whole are non-aggressive and temperate in nature and very God-fearing. They have been regarded as non-martial in character."
Gujjars
"The hill people of Kashmir, called Gujjars, mostly herdsmen by occupation, are found in most parts of Jammu and Kashmir. They are said to be Rajputs who had migrated from Rajasthan and adopted the Muslim faith. They are tall and well-built, with a prominently Jewish cast of features. Their dialect, Gujari is now identified as a form of a Rajasthani. They raise sheep and cattle"
Dogras
"The Dogra Rajputs, who have traditionally made the Army their profession are not of big build, their average height being 5'4" (160 cm). The men's complexion is light brown, the women's lighter still."
Koshur is only spoken in the central Valley of Kashmir and its immediate surrounding areas, it is originally a Dardic language and not of Indo-Aryan decent, but has become predominantly Indo-Aryan. The original inhabitants of the Kashmir valley were Dards speaking a Dardic language slightly influenced by Sanskrit, it was then influenced by two Indo-Aryan languages; Sindhi and Punjabi followed by very heavy influence from Persian from 1300 onwards due to the migrations into the valley.
Kashmiris are not Indo-Aryan by origin, but are Dardic by origin. Tribes such as the Dhars are said to have been in the Kashmir valley from before any known mass migrations into the regeon. There have been migrations of Punjabis/Sindhis who are Indo-Aryan people into the valley, but there have been more massive recent migrations of Persian people (Pashtuns and others) into the valley too, but that does not make the Kashmiri people Persian just as Punjabi/sindhi influence does not make them Indo-Aryan.
ANSWER:
I think you do not know what dardic and indo-aryan means , right. They were earlier considered the two separate branches of indo-iranian(aryan) languages which also include iranian and nuristani languages . This specification is older one but is used until today. But modern linguists have closely examined the dardic languages against the indo-aryan languages and have reached to the conclusion that there is not a single common grammatical feature among dardic languages (kashmiri, shina, khowar etc) that can separate them as a distinct group from the modern indo-aryan languages(punjabi, urdu/hindi, sindhi etc). The only speciality of dardic languages is that they have retained a whole lot of vocabulary that among indo-aryan languages is found only in the rigvedic sanskrit. It has been shown that this speciality of dardic languages of having retained ancient vedic vocabulary is because dardic languages have separated from the indo-aryan proper at the proto-vedic stage, such that proto dardic= proto vedic sanskrit. Modern scholars now classify dardic languages as north-west abberant dialects of indo-aryan with archaic features. Thus koshur language is still dardic but of remote north-west branch of indo-aryan.
Improvement
Since this article is one of those that potentially would create all sorts of challenges, I have added citation-requests to assist in improving the article. I will do my best to help find neutral sources. In this article it would be better to back up Indian or Pakistani based sources with a neutral source since there is the danger of relying on possibly POVish sources. I have also changed "Pakistan-controlled Kashmir (Azad Kashmir") to just Azad Kashmir because it is less POVish. Just so it is clear I would also oppose the use of "Indian-Occupied Kashmir" in favour of just "Indian Jammu and Kashmir". Green Giant 15:43, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Section Relevancy
Hello, the article currently contains a section titled Ethnic variation as shown by linguistics, which contains information about various the various groups of Jammu & Kashmir. From my understanding, this article's intention is to focus on the ethnic group that speaks the Kashmiri/Koshur language and inhabits the Kashmir valley. It scope is not on all the ethnic groups that inhabit the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir. Should Ethnic variation as shown by linguistics continue to remain in the article or should it be moved to an article such as Jammu & Kashmir or Kashmir region, where it would be more relevant? In my opinion, the section is attempting to do the same thing that the Demographics section of the Jammu & Kashmir article already does. With regards, Anupam 03:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Revision of lead and image
The Kashmiri people in no epic have ever been referred to as Dards (For this see the authentic History of Kashmir The Rajataringini of Kalhana) . The Dards live mainly outside the Valley of Kashmir and are a distinct ethnic group and are Aryans like the Kashmiris. There is an effort to slowly change the history of Kashmir to suit the interests of some foreign groups. This can not be done as the history of Kashmir is just too clear. However, an indeterminate number have left the region and now live elsewhere. The Kashmiris speak as their mother tongue the Kashmiri language, a Dardic language known as Koshur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.136.255 (talk) 11:35, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
The picture shown on this article as kashmiris is not suitable. Clearly these people are looking non-Koshur speaking people whereas the article is about koshur speaking kashmiris. -- unsigned edit by 24.185.136.255
- Your revision to the lead is too drastic and is unsourced. Please discuss it here first with reliable contemporary sources (not the The Rajataringini of Kalhana). Right now I am reverting it again. Not because I don't believe you, as all I know so far is that they speak a Dardic language. In any case, the lead should tell us who they are, not who they aren't. And find another word to use instead of Aryan unless you are discussing linguistics. Doug Weller (talk) 11:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- False the Kashmiris are Aryans like most of India. The Punjabis are Aryans too but some very dark due to warm climate.So history can not be changed.For details see: Encyclopedia Brittanica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.122.253.228 (talk) 14:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- From the Aryan article: ""the use of the word Arya or Aryan to designate the speakers of all Indo-European (IE) languages or as the designation of a particular race is an aberration of many writers of the late 19th and early 20th centuries and should be avoided." The word 'Aryan' is pretty meaningless anthropologically today, and unnecessary in this article. Doug Weller (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- No one can make the aryan kashjmiris into dards. The dards are also aryan and live mainly outside the valley of kashmir. Read: http://www.mockandoneil.com/dard.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.130.204 (talk) 12:10, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- Our anonymous editor above doesn't seem to have noticed that Mock agrees with me in that he only uses the word 'Aryan' to refer to languages. He also discusses the problems with the term 'Dard'. 'Aryan' is not an ethnic group, it is a language classification. Doug Weller (talk) 12:20, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- I missed this -- he/she added "The Dards (http://www.mockandoneil.com/dard.htm)are Aryans like the Kashmiris and live mainly outside the Vale of Kashmir" and cited Mock, who as I said above, doesn't use the word 'Aryan' to describe people, only languages. Doug Weller (talk) 12:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
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