Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Appleby (talk | contribs) at 15:18, 3 September 2005 (→69.237.124.189 and 64.170.194.64). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

/Archive 1 /Archive 2

Template:Korean requires |hangul= parameter.

Removing the paragraph in the intro

This line ==>

South Koreans generally do not object to Japanese maps calling the sea 日本海 (which translates as Japan Sea) is not true. Korean's enmity towards the Japanese are tremendous when it comes down to disputed issues including history textbooks, sex-slaves during WWII, and the Sea of Japan issue (including the Dok-do - Takeshima issue). South Koreans furiously object to East Sea being called Sea of Japan, that's why I removed the paragraph.

See source => Look into this article or ask any Korean person (NOT Korean-American)

First of all, please bottom post with new posts. Second, I am in South Korea right now and I can tell you that it is only the English name that Koreans are pissy about. They don't care what the Japanese call it in their own language. It is the English language that the Koreans are trying to change. That paragraph reflects that and I feel it should be left in. Masterhatch 23 August 2005

You feel that way because you aren't Korean. You just are in South Korea and don't have emotion that Koreans generally have. Have yourself read the article that I gave you or look around in Yahoo! Korea news, Daum news, naver news, and empas news. (If you can read Korean that is.. =) ) South Koreans are infuriated whenever there is a news about Japan publishing a propaganda that includes Sea of Japan I like the way you said South Korean are 'pissy'. With such attitude can you truly understand a culture of ethnicity? I seriously doubt your "feelings".

I have been in South Korea for almost 4 years. I love it here and I love the people and the culture. I have many good friends here too. And i can tell you that it is only when that body of water is referred to in English and European languages that the Koreans become irrate (is that a better word for you?). In the Japanese language, not English, Koreans, level headed ones anyway (which is the majority), aren't trying to change it. Koreans are trying to change it in the English language and international community, not the Japanese language. That paragraph reflects that, so, I feel it should be left in. By the way, I can read Korean. And by the way, while I am in korea, I refer to that body of water as "East Sea", not "Sea of Japan." Masterhatch 23 August 2005

Okay it seems like I have misinterpreted the paragraph. I'll put it back on. Thanks Masterhatch.

New Version

I have attempted to rewrite the whole article in an NPOV way. I have put it at Dispute over the name of the Sea of Japan/temp in order to prevent being reverted before we have discussed the changes. I have deliberately left out the old maps, and cut the external links to one for each side. I hope we can work based on this new version. Kokiri 1 July 2005 09:42 (UTC)

Impressive work! Kudos. -- Visviva 1 July 2005 10:42 (UTC)

The following comments were posted by User:Kojangee on Dispute over the name of the Sea of Japan/temp. Kokiri 1 July 2005 17:40 (UTC)

• Ok, this is getting silly. Much of this article is slanted towards supporting the use of East Sea and is in no way NPOV which is really starting to make me wonder whether or not one of the Korean governments is paying you money to keep this illogical POV you keep using in the mask of NPOV.
• First of all, your paragraph entitled Geographical reasons claims that Japan's main arguement is that the sea is a marginal sea. Well, having spoken to actual real live Japanese people on this issue, I can assure you that most people in Japan who care about this issue simply say that if there is no Japan, then there is no sea.
• Secondly, this sentence "The dominance of the name Sea of Japan is regarded a reflection of Japan's imperial past." is an opinion thank-you very much. A better and less-POV would read "The dominance of the name Sea of Japan is regarded by the two Koreas as a reflection of Japan's imperial past."
• Thirdly, there is no mention of the most common arguement as to why Japanese generally feel the sea should remain named as it is (see first rebuttal).

Thanks for commenting on the version I put up (albeit in an uncommon place). Thanks for spotting the possible ambiguity: I've fixed this now. Now, I don't think I really have to comment on your first point. The paragraph entitled geographical reasons does not say anything about any argument being a main argument. In my post a bit further up I stressed the need to differentiate between different actors. There is no single (homogenous) Japan or Korea. Different groups and individuals have different views, and thus trying not to take sides, it'd be silly of me to call any one argument a main argument. I've fixed the sentence about the imperial past. Since it was not directed at yourself, there's actually no need to thank. Finally, I canot see how Japanese groups argue that as a marginal sea of the Pacific Ocean, the sea should be named for Japan as an argument is different from if there is no Japan, then there is no sea.

I would be very grateful if pointed me towards the points where you think the article is slanted towards supporting the use of East Sea. Kokiri 1 July 2005 18:52 (UTC)

New policy proposal on resolving naming disputes

I've written up a new policy proposal to provide a set of basic principles and rules for dealing with disputes such as this. Please see Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict and feel free to add your comments at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conflict. -- ChrisO 1 July 2005 17:44 (UTC)

New Version II

With regards to Dispute over the name of the Sea of Japan/temp, I was wondering whether anyone (else) wanted to comment. The next step would be moving the contents to the article, and move on from there… Kokiri 7 July 2005 08:59 (UTC)

• What's the traditional Chinese name for the sea? Then we can avoid a Korea vs Japan pissing contest. Or perhaps the Russian name. 67.68.67.71 8 July 2005 06:53 (UTC)

I think you might have missed the point: (1) this is the English Misplaced Pages, (2) Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary, (3) the dispute is about the English name of the water, (4) it is not our task to resolve the dispute; it's our task to describe it in a neutral way. In case you need that information: it's actually in the Sea of Japan article; this article is supposed to be about the dispute over the name. Have a nice day! --Kokiri 8 July 2005 07:28 (UTC)

Currently, the Chinese call it (when translated) "Japanese Sea" and the Russians call it "Sea of Japan".

It has been brought to my attention that it is difficult to find where the naming dispute over the East Sea/Sea of Japan is actually being discussed. It is an ongoing dispute and it is being discussed here:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (Korean)/Disputed names

Thank you. Masterhatch 8 July 2005

I have re-read the current version and re-read the new "temp" version. I agree that the current version needs a serious clean-up. I like the way the "temp" one is layed out, but it seems to be missing some key points from the current one. but of course when one edits and cleans up an article, many things are bound to be left out (usually, but not always, for the better). Masterhatch 8 July 2005

Would anyone object if I replaced the current version with the temp one, as a base for a better article? Kokiri 16:49, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I've replaced it now. Kokiri 22:16, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Kokiri, as I have said before, I really liked the way you cleaned up and reorganised "Dispute over the name of the Sea of Japan". It reads much smoother now. There are three parts to the article that I feel need to be changed or reworded, though. I felt it better to discuss it with you before actually making the changes.

1. "This sea is called by various names including Sea of Korea, Sea of Corea, Chinese Ocean, Bay of Korea, or Sea of Japan on maps earlier than the 19th century. After, Sea of Japan appears increasingly." While I agree that the name Sea of Japan does appear increasingly after the name was made official, I feel that the wording implies that it only appeared increasingly after the name was made official.
2. "...leave the area blank until a consensus can be reached between Japan and Korea." Maybe I have not done enough research, but I have never seen (except for the map on this article) a map that shows the sea as left blank.
3. The "Ownership" section only mentions the Korean thoughts. Would it be possible to add the Japanese thoughts that "name doesn’t imply ownership (for example, the English Channel doesn't belong to England and the Gulf of Mexico doesn't belong to Mexico)"?

These are just some thoughts of mine. What do you think? Masterhatch 23 July 2005

I'd say go ahead with 1 and 3. I've just changed 2 so it doesn't imply many publishers left the sea blank (the NYT did that, and I've seen about 2 or 3 books). Kokiri 12:48, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I thought about just being "bold" but you had that temp made up for quite some time and I said nothing. I guess i would have felt guilty if I made a change when I had so long to make a change and didn't. You put a lot of hard work and time into rewriting. Also, I wanted to give you a chance to review my thoughts before I actually did anything. Masterhatch 23 July 2005.

Wikimachine's Opinion

What I'm trying to point out in my version of the article is that it was originally called Sea of Korea and East Sea. Please, do not change the version, unless you have a good reason to do so.

By doing so, I am not vandalizing the article in anyway. I haven't changed any points in the article. I'm just adding more info onto it.

This is the English section of Misplaced Pages. The most common English name was (and is) Sea of Japan. The Koreans called it by various names including East Sea and East Sea of Korea and the Japanese have also called it by various names. The point is, since this is the English language section of Misplaced Pages, we are using English names. What was it called first in English? Well, that is difficult to say for sure as many of the oldest maps no longer exist. But we do know that it was called by many different names in English. It was called Oriental Sea, Japanese Sea, East Sea, East Sea of Korea, Sea of Japan, Japan Sea. The list goes on and on. But the most common name in English history (before the 20th century) was Sea of Japan and the like. Believe it or not, in the early days Oriental Sea was more common on English maps than East Sea. In my humble opinion, I would love for the international community to call it Oriental Sea. That would solve a lot of problems. Korea claims that Sea of Japan the wrong name and favours Japan too much. But of course, Korea isn't pushing for a neutral name, like Oriental Sea. they are pushing for their name not realising that East Sea is equally as POV as Sea of Japan. Masterhatch 15 August 2005

Ok, Masterhatch. You see, Koreans did not call the sea Sea of Korea. In Korean language, the sea is east of Korea, and, therefore, called the East Sea. It's the Europeans who called the sea, Sea of Korea. It was originally called Sea of Korea by the Europeans & Arabians. If you search all the old maps, before the 20th and the very late 19th centuries, there is no Sea of Japan nor Japan Sea. They are East Sea, Oriental Sea (because oriental actually means East--> same meaning as East Sea), and Sea of Korea.

So, let me get this straight: 1. It is called the East Sea/Oriental Sea because that is from Korean language. 2. It is called Sea of Korea, not because Koreans said it, but because the European and Arabian mapmakers presumed that it was its name.

So, is it wrong to say that the original name of the sea was NOT Sea of Japan, but any of the above mentioned? I don't think so.

Also, I don't understand about making a "clean" article. We need to be informative, you see. People have already seen present day maps that says Sea of Japan. Wouldn't it be interesting to put an old map that shows Sea of Korea as well?

Cite your sources if you insist that your claim is true. I provided an authoritative source in the History of the Dispuate section, which refutes Korean's claim. --Tkh 20:05, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Wikimachine, thank you for your interest in the subject. If you look at the much older article (about a month or so) you will see that it was an absolute mess. There were maps proving Sea of Japan and there were maps proving East Sea. Kokiri had a brilliant idea to just leave the one ? map and then have written text showing both sides of the argument. Since this is a very POV subject, he found a way of re-writing it so that it was NPOV. If you put up one map of East Sea, then other people will put up maps showing Sea of Japan. And then more maps showing East Sea. and then more maps showing Sea of Japan. That is pointless. As for older maps, Sea of Japan (and the like) out number East Sea (and the like) maps in English (which is what this is about). If you really want to use your maps and other maps, you can create an article here: Old maps of Korea and put as many old maps up as you want. Masterhatch 15 August 2005

Here's my cites.

• http://www.prkorea.com/english/textbook/ge02.html

"Historically, Korea has been used the term “East Sea” in writings since 59 B.C."

"A map of Korea which was officially created in the mid-18th century also used the name, “East Sea.” Hence, there is much evidence that “East Sea” has been used for centuries."

"Until 1870, even Japanese maps referred to the East Sea as the “Sea of Joseon.” All of the following maps refer to the East Sea as the “Sea of Joseon.”"

"There are many European maps which identified the East Sea as the “Sea of Korea.” These include a 1615 Portuguese map, a 1647 English map, a map published in the 1744 and 1752 editions of a world atlas and a 1750 French map. Furthermore, “Sea of Korea” appears in the first edition of the 1771 Encyclopedia Britannica."

Okay now, Masterhatch. Let's see... East Sea & Sea of Korea has been used for around 1,500 years. Sea of Japan has been only used for 100 years.

Is it that bad to point out that the name was Sea of Korea/East Sea originally? How in the world is it a mess to put more info?

First off, I must ask what your objective is. Is your objective to have the name changed on Misplaced Pages from Sea of Japan to East Sea? If that is your objective, I wish you luck. OK, you said,

• "Historically, Korea has been used the term "East Sea" in writings since 59 B.C." I don't doubt that. But that is moot point. Why? Because this is the English language section of Misplaced Pages and in English, it is called the Sea of Japan and in English, Sea of Japan was and is the most common. We are not talking about what the Koreans call it. It doesn't matter what they call it. They can call that body of water whatever they want. The point is, officially, internationally, it is called "Sea of Japan". Sea of Japan is not the Japanese name or the Korean name. It is the English name. The Japanese did not name the body of water "Sea of Japan". Europeans did. If the Japanese wanted to name that body of water for the internatinal community, i am sure that they would ahve chosen a different name, such as "Nippon Sea" or something like that. Anyways, my point is, it doesn't matter what Koreans called it 2000 years ago. I am sure there are Japanese maps that call it something other than East Sea 2000 years ago too. The point is, in English, the most common name was and is "Sea of Japan".
• "A map of Korea which was officially created in the mid-18th century also used the name, “East Sea.” Hence, there is much evidence that “East Sea” has been used for centuries." For every map you show showing "East Sea", there are a greater number of maps showing "Sea of Japan". The fact still remains, "Sea of Japan" is the official English name.
• "Until 1870, even Japanese maps referred to the East Sea as the “Sea of Joseon.” All of the following maps refer to the East Sea as the “Sea of Joseon.”" I don't care what the Japanese called it or even call it. The fact remains, "Sea of Japan" is the official name in English. Like I said before, it wasn't the Japanese who named it "Sea of Japan". It was the Europeans. Even by you saying Sea ofJoseon, that still doesn't translate to "East Sea". South Koreans don't call themselves joseon. The north Koreans do.
• "There are many European maps which identified the East Sea as the “Sea of Korea.” These include a 1615 Portuguese map, a 1647 English map, a map published in the 1744 and 1752 editions of a world atlas and a 1750 French map. Furthermore, “Sea of Korea” appears in the first edition of the 1771 Encyclopedia Britannica." As i said before, for every map showing "EAst Sea", there are more maps showing "Sea of Japan". Yes, Europeans called it by several names in the past. But! the most common was was "Sea of Japan" (and the like).

Koreans call Australia Hoju. Since this is the English language section of Misplaced Pages, we don't use the Korean name for that country. We use the English name. Koreans call the Sea of Japan Donghae. Does that mean that English Misplaced Pages must to? No, it doesn't. English Misplaced Pages uses English names, not local place names. We don't call South Korea Dae han min guk and that is reflected on Misplaced Pages.

That site that you made reference to is a VANK site. I have read many VANK sites and they are propaganda only showing one side of the coin and they disregard anything and everything that shows Sea of Japan.

If your goal is to have the world change the name to "East Sea", then you are taking your fight up on the wrong website. The fight needs to be taken up with the UN and IHO. They are the ones that set the name. Misplaced Pages just reflects the facts and is not a medium for change. That is what NPOV is all about. A few years ago, the Eskimo requested that they be called Inuit because they found Eskimo (eaters of raw flesh) offensive. It was agreed that Eskimo was offensive and now Inuit is being used instead. Korea has applied, and failed, to have the name changed. If they are successful in changing the name with the international community, they Misplaced Pages will reflect that. Until then, we will use the official, most common, and internationally recognised name of Sea of Japan. Masterhatch 16 August 2005.

Koreans call the sea Donghae, yes, but the old maps don't say it's Donghae. It says East Sea and Sea of Korea in English. And, my goal is not to make a change in the world. Hey, nobody in the UNESCO would listen to me. So, let me change the article.

Until the name is officially changed to something other than Sea of Japan, Misplaced Pages will use Sea of Japan. East Sea as a name is POV in favour if Korea. Sea of Japan, in English, is NPOV. Misplaced Pages strives to be NPOV and by putting East Sea over Sea of Japan, that violates the NPOV policy of Misplaced Pages. Masterhatch 16 August 2005

I'm not trying to change the name into Sea of Japan. I'm trying to mention the fact that it was originally called Sea of Korea/East Sea. I repeat: it does not change the points in the article -just adding more info. So let me put that on the article, along with a picture of an ancient map supporting it. You see, a map with a ? doesn't give anybody info.

In English, it was called by a dozen original names. It is impossible to know which English name was used first and honestly, that is moot point here on Misplaced Pages as we aren't here to promote name changes. It is possible, though, to know which name was the most common. Sea of Japan (and the like) just happens to be the most common of all those original names. To keep this article NPOV, if you put one map up showing East Sea then all of the maps showing every which name will get put up (again). East Sea was, and is, the minority name of that body of water in English, so why should an East Sea map be put up without a Sea of Japan map? If you only put one map up disregarding the maps showing Sea of Japan, then you are making a POV edit (kind of like the propaganda spewed out by VANK). There is no need to put up a dozen maps (and pie charts) showing every name. The dispute is quite well laid out in text form in a NPOV way (thanks Kokiri! you did a great job!). yes, the ? doesn't show any name. Isn't that wonderfully NPOV? You can't get any more NPOV than that! There is enough info from both sides in text form. Currently, there is a good counter-balance between the two sides on this article, which is wonderful! Don't you think? If you really want to put your map up somewhere on wiki, a great place, as mentioned before, is Old maps of Korea and have a link to it on the Dispute over the name of the Sea of Japan page. Masterhatch 17 August 2005

OK, Masterhatch. Let's clarify some stuffs here.

• Here's a list of the original names: Sea of Korea and the East Sea (Mer de Coree & Mer de Oriental). Sea of Japan was used since the early 1900s. But before then, for more than 1,000 years, it was called by the two original names mentioned above (even the Japanese called it Sea of Choson, which means Sea of Korea). Therefore, Sea of Japan is not an original name of the body of the water. Yes, it's true that we don't know which one of them was used first. But, it does not prevent us from saying that it was originally called by these names (mentioned above).

• Let's see which name has been more common -the two original names or Sea of Japan. Do you seriously think that the world has printed more Sea of Japan than the two original names (mentioned above) during its 100 years of reign? The two original names (mentioned above) had been in use for more than 1,000 years -definitely those two names had been used in more occasions.

• East Sea is the minority name of the maps in the present time. But, along with Sea of Korea, it was the majority name of the maps before the 20th century.

• This is an article on the dispute of the names for the sea. Sea of Japan is already being used in Sea of Japan article. And there's a map that shows Sea of Japan in that article; this article can have a map on Sea of Korea (without having Sea of Japan, and, plus, what's so wrong about having two maps?).

Your list of original names is incomplete. And history shows in English and other European languages that Sea of Japan (and the like) is more common than East Sea. East Sea is only more common in Korean contexts written by Koreans. Why do you keep bringing up "more than 1000 years"? English as we know it hasn't exsisted for a thousand years and a thousand years ago, the English didn't know about that body of water. This dispute is not about what Korea or Japan called it or calls it. We all know that Korea does not call it "Sea of Japan" and we all know that the Japanese didn't name it "Sea of Japan". Europeans did. So, you mentioned one map showing Sea of Choson made by the Japanese but disregard all other maps made by the Japanese. If that isn't POV, I dont' know what is. And let's clarify some stuff here. Sea of Japan has been in use by the English since well before the early 1900s. It has been the international de facto since the early 1800s and the most common name in Europeans languages since before the 1800s. The original name of that body of water is impossible to know, so how can you claim East Sea and Sea of Korea are the original ones? Maybe the Chinese named it first. Or some other Asian group of people. We don't know. It is impossible to know, so you can't claim to know the original name. Get your facts straight, please. And please remember that this is about the English name of that body of water, not the korean name or the Japanese name. In English, Sea of Japan has been the most common and is the most common since the Europeans first started mapping that region. Sea of Japan hasn't been the only name, just the most common.

You said, yes, we don't know the original name, but then you go onto say that the two original names are East Sea and Sea of Korea. And do i think that the world has printed more Sea of Japan maps over the other two names? Yes, I think that. But my thoughts are backed up by facts. Interesting, eh? What are your thoughts back up by?

The Sea of Japan article has a map of Sea of Japan because that is what it is called in English. This dispute article has a very NPOV one map showing a big ?. If you want to add an old map showing "East Sea", then to keep the article NPOV, add an old map showing "Sea of Japan". But they just cancel each other out and it becomes redundant. Having just a ? is perfectly NPOV, don't you think? If you put up one map, then someone else will put up a map showing Sea of Japan. Then another map showing East Sea will appear. Then another showing Sea of Japan. Before you know it, you have a million maps proving nothing. Instead of having a map war (which is pointless), let's keep things simple and just have a ? map. Masterhatch 23 August 2005

Then, could you send me a map that shows Sea of Japan before the early 1800s, please? My e-mail address is chunbumparkmba@yahoo.com. I've never seen a map from 700~1,700 AD that shows Sea of Japan.

Also, we don't need billions of maps. Let's just have one representative map for the other names of the sea, and another for Sea of Japan.

Somewhere above, I posted "Until 1870, even Japanese maps referred to the East Sea as the “Sea of Joseon.” All of the following maps refer to the East Sea as the “Sea of Joseon.”" And you can't say that a site is for propaganda, just because it supports Koreans' claims.

I get it. You replied against my posts above, but I didn't see them. Okay. Let me clarify some stuffs here.

• Before the Japanese colonial rule, Korea was called "Joseon".
• Everybody knows that "Sea of Japan" is the official name in the present time. But, I'm trying to say that "Sea of Japan" was never used before 1870; names, such as "Sea of Korea", "Sea of Joseon" (Japanese maps showed that in Japanese language), "East Sea", etc., were used since 59B.C..
• "For every map showing Sea of Korea/etc., there are more maps showing Sea of Japan"

You are quite right. But, Sea of Japan has been in existence since 1870, which means that technology allows for mass production of maps showing Sea of Japan. Also, many of the old maps did not survive. Therefore, "number of map showing Sea of Japan vs. Sea of etc." does not work; rather, "how long has the names been in existence" is more practical.-Wikimachine-

Older Maps showing Sea of Japan

You said you have never seen a map showing Sea of Japan before 1870. I went into the history of this dispute on this article and pulled up these maps, which no one claimed to be false:

Now you have seen maps older than 1870. You said that, and I agree, that many older maps have been destroyed. Then you go on to say that the oldest map wins. Well, if many maps are destroyed, how do we know which name is oldest? Masterhatch 24 August 2005

You're right that "Sea of Japan being around since 1870" is false. Very shocking it is. Where did you get the dates (I don't see the year when it was published on any of those maps)?

-Wikimachine

One map...please

A Wikipedian by the name of Kokiri cleaned up this article a while back. the old one was a mess. It had lots of maps showing both Sea of Japan and East Sea. Basically, the old article was a disaster. It was agreed that only one map should be on the page (the current one with the ?) as to avoid a huge mess. Kokiri (who is pro East Sea by the way) did a wonderful job at making this article NPOV. Let's keep it that way and keep only one map and keep this article clean and tidy. Currently, in this article, the facts are presented very well from both sides of the coin. Masterhatch 15 August 2005

Leonheart's edit

I reverted your edit because you failed to cite authoritative sources. If you want to refute the Japanese investigation, the report you mentioned must be as rigorous as the Japanese one: it must mention the total number of maps investigated (this must be exhaustive in a given period) and the number of maps which mention Sea of Japan and East Sea. --Tkh 08:18, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

the VANK site

this paragraph:

• On August 17, 2005, Google Earth removed Sea of Japan and replaced the label with East Sea. In response, Japanese hackers attacked the volunteer Korean cyber-organization VANK website on August 18, 2005. For four consecutive days, Japanese hackers wrote large volume of messages including ‘East Sea is Sea of Japan‘, ‘Before annexation Korea was puppet of China; after annexation Korea was a slave of Japan‘ This attack resulted in VANK server down. This case was further investigated by the Korean police, cyber-terror division in collaboration with the Japanese police.

What does that have to do with the dispute? Nothing. Are we going to list all the web sites that use Sea of Japan? all the web sites that use East Sea? All the books that use East Sea? all the books that use Sea of Japan? Are we going to list every news article about minor happenings? I think not. That would be a total waste of time and would not contribute to this article what-so-ever. This article is about the official dispute and the history of the naming. Google Earth changing the name is not part of the history. Also, I did a google search and couldn't find any non-blog sources for that change (I didn't download Google Earth as I dont' want it on my computer) in English. I am removing that news related post as it has nothing to do with the historical naming of that body of water. It doesn't belong on this dispute article. There is already a VANK mentioning on this article and a link from there to to the VANK article is enough. The VANK article can mention (with English sources) what happened. If you notice, all the mentionings on the dispute article are from government type sources. I really don't think of VANK or Google Earth as a goverment type source. Masterhatch 23 August 2005

I do agree that VANK is not reflected in any of the government type source. But keep in mind that having Google recognize Sea of Japan/East Sea is very significant, noting that Google is one of the most popular search engine and thus very influential in informatics (Just like you used Google to search for VANK news). Also, how many times is a non-profit organization website attacked for politically disputed reasons? I believe listing this event is *not* such a waste of time like you mentioned, but it reflects issues at the individualistic level.

This => If you notice, all the mentionings on the dispute article are from government type sources.

History like you mentioned does not necessarily only include things that relates to governments or international organizations (or any of their perspectives). There are events that governments cannot simply comment on, but important enough to be covered in the media.(As you can see many of them in Current Events) This article is not a collection of government propaganda. If it only has government, we should include more of events that are more pertinent to today, which will be part of history in the future.

So, did Google remove "Sea of Japan" entirely? did it just remove it in Korean articles? Does google now use "East Sea" in Japanese contexts? your post doesn't clarify anything and you need sources so we can check. By the way, your VANK site is famous for attacking other sites, klogging their serves and trying to force sites to change the name using misinformation. VANK is a very political site that dabbles in political affairs. Masterhatch 23 August 2005

Wikimachine's Comments 2

Here are things in the article that I don't agree with. I ask for permission to alter the article.

• This sea is mainly called Sea of Japan on most maps earlier than the 19th century, but some maps call it by various names including Bay of Korea, Chinese Ocean, Sea of Corea, or Sea of Korea.

I seriously think that this is false. Masterhatch did show me that there are some maps from the early 1800s that show Sea of Japan, but I have never seen maps before the eary 1800s that ever show Sea of Japan. Plus, I see maps from the early 1800s that show, not only Sea of Japan, but also other various names.

Suggestion: "This sea was called by various names including Bay of Korea, Chinese Ocean, Sea of Corea, Sea of Korea, or Sea of Joseon. But, since the 1800s, Sea of Japan began to appear more often in maps".

When Kokiri first moved the "temp" dipute article over to the main page on 22 July 2005, the sentence you are referring to read like this: "This sea is called by various names including Sea of Korea, Sea of Corea, Chinese Ocean, Bay of Korea, or Sea of Japan on maps earlier than the 19th century. After, Sea of Japan appears increasingly." That sentence was briefly discussed and then changed to the way it currently reads. It was changed because the wording made it sound like the other names were more common (which wasn't true). It was changed to be made more "accurate". Your wording (in my opinion) is better than (by just a little bit) the wording used on 22 July, but the meaning is the same. The way I understand it, Sea of Japan was always the most common (but it was fairly close in the old days if you count Sea of Japan compared to ALL the other names combined), but I don't have every map made of the Sea in my possession. I do agree, though, that since the early 1800s, Sea of Japan became more and more common and the other names became less and less common. If you added a slightly revised suggestion, I see no problem with the change. Here is my suggestion:

• ""This sea was called by various names including Bay of Korea, Chinese Ocean, Sea of Corea, Sea of Korea, or Sea of Joseon. But, since the early 1800s, Sea of Japan began to appear more often in maps".

Worded like that, I would be in favour of the change. But I am not the only Wikipedian and I want to know what other Wikipedians think of this change. If no one objects, I say make the change. The version that we have now came together through compromises from both sides and many felt that the article was written very nicely in a NPOV way; that is one of the reasons i am so protective of the article keeping status quo. A second reason is that I respect Kokiri (an East Sea supporter) very much and he was the main author of the article we see before us. So, to sum up my long winded post, if no one objects within the next day or two, make the change. Masterhatch 26 August 2005

228 vs. 1435

Both Japan and Korea did a study regarding the maps found at the "United States Library of Congress". The Koreans studied 228 maps. The Japanese studied 1435. Of the maps studied by Korea, 103 showed "East Sea" (and the like) and "Oriental Sea". Why would they group East Sea and Oriental Sea (two very different names with very different meanings) together, but separate all the other names?

The Japanese study mentions the Korean study, but the Korean study does not mention the Japanese study. I guess my point is this: why would Korea only study 228 maps while Japan studied 1435 maps? Both Korea and Japan used the same source (United STates Library of Congress), but Japanese did a larger study encompasing more maps. Did the Korean study select maps that would favour them? The Japanese study appears to take a larger scope trying to show "all" the maps. I find the Korean study very odd and suspect. Masterhatch 31 August 2005

Apparently the Korean government arbitrarily picked up 228 maps at the LoC. As mentioned in the Japanese report, it is impossible to do random samples of maps available at the LoC because not all maps have been electronized. The only fair way would be to investigate all maps available at the LoC, which the Japanese government did. --Tkh 22:09, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

Edits by anonymous IP addresses

69.237.124.189 and 64.170.194.64

You should cite sources on your claims because groundless claims mean nothing. --Tkh 00:00, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Finally you cited the Korean government's official investigation. The report claims to have investigated various maps including the ones in the US LoC, but why the total number investigated from differnt sources is substantially smaller than the Japanese investigation which investigated 1,435 maps only in the US LoC? Where is the list of maps the Korean government investigated? The Japanese report provides a full list of maps it investigated, and logically refutes the Korean investigation at the US LoC by stating that the Korean government only investigated about 51% of the maps archived at the US LoC in the period it claimed to have investigated. Read the Japanese report. The Korean government's investigation is arbitrary and highly doubtful. --Tkh 23:55, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

"As of" dates can't enter the history of dispute section because it is not clear when the statements were made. The section must focus on the historical development of the dispute. Now it's clear that you can't even provide the year, so I'll remove the paragraph you added until you cite a real report with the year. Also read my above comment to another IP user and answer the questions as well. --Tkh 23:55, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

about japan's list - how many are copies or derivatives, what were sources, who used them, how widespread, how influential? no independent study -- 64.170.194.64, September 1, 2005

In terms of who used the maps, how widespred they were, and how influential they are, they are not verifiable, therefore your claim on these are meaningless. I highly doubt that you've read the list of maps. Most of maps on the list have either publisher, author, or both. Also, your agument on copies and derivatives doesn't make sense at all. How can you determine if a very old map is derivative of another one? Lastly, a source doesn't have to be an independent study, but it has to be verifiable. Please don't divert the discussion, and leave your comment on the talk page. --Tkh 02:38, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

you can't answer my questions either. who made you the judge of government reports? cite independent evaluation of reports, not your pov. until then, treat them as equally partisan. -- 64.170.194.64, September 1, 2005

Misplaced Pages does not require such a thing. In our case, it suffices to say that sources have to be verifiable. Read Misplaced Pages:Verifiability. I answered your question regardless of your disregard of answering my questions. Now it's your turn. Answer all of my questions above before you make edits. --Tkh 05:39, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

korea's position is also verifiable on its site. you can't judge the validity of the contents, each is an advocacy position -- 64.170.194.64, September 2, 2005

No. The Korean report you cited is an advocacy because it fails to show the list of maps, but the Japanese report is supported by the data which can be used to verify its correctness. That's why the Korean report is not verifiable. Don't arbitrarily change your arguments. --Tkh 06:53, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

If you claim that the Korean report is verifiable, show me the list of maps. That's the only way to be able to verify the correctness. --Tkh 07:20, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

Response: the issue is the verifiability of the positions of each side, not an evaluation of methodology. my version states what each side reports to have found, linking to each govt site. as to the credibility of the claims themselves, which report is actually valid, you don't have the expertise, & cannot be a npov source, to render that judgment. having a list doesn't validate the conclusion, unless you have actually examined the maps yourself & have the expertise to evaluate them, & even then it's your personal conclusion, not a citable source. obviously rand mcnally, national geographic, google, & others did not think korea's claims are unsupported, nor has the un or iho, for that matter. we can only say what each side & citable authority have stated.

No. You failed to cite the list of maps for the undated report. That's unverifiable and therefore it should be deleted. The Korean report dated in 2002 shows the data, so it is verifiable, but the Japanese report refuted it. Therefore we should adopt the facts finding in the Japanese report until some authoritaitve source refutes it. --Tkh 23:08, September 2, 2005 (UTC)

Response: once again, i'm saying this is x's POSITION, and linking to x's description of its position. i'm not drawing a conclusion about a list of maps, so i don't need to link to a list of maps, nor do i have to justify x or y's position. in an article about a dispute, i'm describing each side's position, whose POSITION can be verified by the links. if you want to write a conclusion about which side actually "shows" something, or what the "de facto" status was, cite an authority that determined x's position is more valid than y's position. you are merely citing x, and saying YOU think x's position is more valid than y's position. that belongs on your personal blog, not wikipedia.

To make the Korean report verifiable, it must show the list of maps. It must also provide the year (and possibly the month) the report was published. If both conditions were met, I'd have no problem including a mention to the Korean report. P.S. Can you get an account and put your user ID for each of your comments? --Tkh 09:04, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

Response: once again, the article verifies that it is x's position. how x supports and documents its position is described in the article. whether x's position is supported by a report, a report with a list of maps, a report with a longer list of maps, a report with list of source institutions, a report with copies of actual maps attached, a report with maps identified by circulation, where do you draw the line, but more importantly, why draw the line? WHETHER x's position is valid is not for you or me to judge, even if we agreed. the article states what standards bodies have done. the objective npov facts are: there is a dispute (the fact of the existence of the dispute is easy to verify at various authoritive sources). one side claims abc. the other side claims xyz. no citable authority has determined whether abc or xyz is more valid. my edits clearly show these facts without bias. i'm happy to include tkh's newly found study, because that's a fact, that's what one party claims. but don't tell me flatly stating one side's position as fact in the introduction is npov. Appleby 15:18, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Korean Goverment sources

Personally, I don't have a problem with using a Korean government source on this page, but the source you give doesn't have a date! also, it doesn't list the maps that it used and it only uses a select few maps to draw its conclusions. That korean site looks at 763 maps from from these sources:

• Collection of old maps and atlases preserved at the British National Library and the Cambridge University Library, London, UK; East Asian Map Collection (“Sea of Korea” Map Collection), East Asian Library, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, USA; Geography and Map Division of the Library of Congress, Washington, DC, USA; Russian State Library, Russian State Archives of Ancient Documents, and Russian State Archives of the Navy, Moscow, Russia; French National Library (BNF), Paris, France; Hye Jung Cultural Research Institute, Kyung Hee University, Seoul, Korea; Hiroo Aoyama’s survey in 1995.

Now, my biggest problem is, why did Korea only look at 763 maps? I am sure that there are a hell of a lot more than just that from those sources. In fact, I know that there are more than that. From just one of those sources, the Japanese found over 1400 maps. So, what did Korea do? Just choose maps that they liked and forgot about the rest? That, ladies and gentlemen, is why that source you keep throwing up is, as Tkh puts, unverifiable. You dont' need to be an expert on ancient maps or a math whiz to do the math on this one. That Korean study is extremely POV. Just take a calculator to the numbers.

In your last revert, you put up a comment that read like this: "i've responded in talk. let's keep it npov ... if it's as one-sided as you'd like to think, we wouldn't need this page at all)". I'm sorry, but that Korean study (with no date with only a small percentage of maps included in the study) is very POV. Have you heard of the word "propaganda"? Koreans are constantly bitching that the Japanese are trying to re-write history (which, I agree, Japan is trying and I totally disagree with what Japan is doing) to make themselves look better. Well, Korea is doing the same thing! Korea is trying to brainwash its people into believing that East Sea was more common than Sea of Japan. So, yes, it is as one-sided as we'd like to think. And I agree, we don't need this dispute page. Sea of Japan has been the most common name for... well, dunno... since Europeans started naming bodies of water in East Asia. The only reason that there is a dispute over the name is because of the Korean hatred towards Japan. You don't see the Koreans all up in arms about the Yellow Sea or the South China Sea. Why? Because China is korea's friend. This entire dispute is all about Korea vs. Japan, not what is historically "right" or "wrong". I live in Korea. I love it here. I have been here for almost 4 years and I will probably be here for a lot longer. As much as I love it here, I am not blind and i can see the shit through the shiola and I know that this dispute is not about history, that is only the mask, it is about "saving face" and "one-upping". While I am in Korea, I never get into discussions with Koreans about the name of that body of water as that is so pointless. I find that Koreans in general believe everything they are told by the media and government and don't actually stop to think for themselves (have a look at Fan death).

If you really want to add that link to that Korean site, then it must be footnoted stating that the study is not verifiable and that Korea only used a select few maps and didn't take a representation of the whole. Masterhatch 2 September 2005

response: it doesn't matter what you believe, see wikipedia:verifiability linked above. this is not about your independent research, your evaluation. we state the positions, link that verifies the positions. article already states how many maps were counted, what the dates are (or that it is undated). if you link to u.n. or other citable authority concluding that one side's report is propaganda, i have no problem, but inserting YOUR pov (instead of stating each subject side's pov) is unacceptable. do that on your own blog. that's not what wikipedia does.

You are right, this isn't by blog. But atleast I am keeping my opinions to the talk page. You are pushing your POV on the main article page. How on God's good green earth could the 700 or so maps that Korea looked at possibly take precedence over 1400 or so maps studied by the Japanese? Masterhatch 2 September 2005

response: unlike you, i'm not saying x takes precedence over another. i'm saying that's what x's position is (with link to that position) and this is what y's position is (with link to that position). if some citable authority besides your own opinion says x takes precedence over another, by all means, cite it & we'll discuss it then. we won't discuss your own independent evaluation on wikipedia. again, see wikipedia policy. if you want to change both paragraphs from "show" to "claim," now we're talking like reasonable people.

yes you are saying x takes precedence over another. You remove this: "At the time, the name had already been the de facto international standard. While less common names such as East Sea, or Oriental Sea existed" and replace it with this: "The report shows that "East Sea" or "Sea of Korea" had been de facto standard in the 19th century." Masterhatch 2 September 2005

response: in the first case, i removed one side's conclusion stated as undisputed fact. in the second case, i mirrored the wording for the opposing side .

So, you deliberately made a POV edit to...what? Make a point? Masterhatch 2 September 2005

response: if you think removing disputed conclusion stated as fact, and using the same paraphrasing language for both sides are POV edits .... well i think our discussion here is done

The Sea of Japan was the international de facto in the 1800s. You changed it to East Sea was the international de facto based on nothing but your own POV. You couldn't even point to a source for that edit. The "best" source (and that is a very questionalbe source) you have points to a total of just over 700 maps. That is only half of the maps from the "other" site that "shows/claims" Sea of Japan as being the de facto. You deliberatly made a POV edit and then offered a "compromise" that was in the middle: "if you want to change both paragraphs from "show" to "claim," now we're talking like reasonable people". Sorry, but making a POV edit and then trying to find a compromise in the middle isn't how wikipedia works. As for this discussion, you are right. There is no point in discussing it further. Have a nice day! Masterhatch 2 September 2005

The Japanese study is the most comprehensive one out there and it shows the greatest number of maps counted. Doesn't that make it a fairly strong and valid source? It encompases more than 1400 maps. The Korean study scatters sources all over the place "picking and chosing" the maps it wants.

As for me and my "blogs", didn't you know about Wiki's three revert rule? If you have a problem with an article, such as this, then you come to the talk page to avoid a war. Creating a war such as you have only stiffens the resolve. Also, we don't carry out conversations on the comment bar. That is what the talk page is for.

Also in regards to my "blogs", Misplaced Pages is not a medium for name change, so take up your fight to have the name changed elsewhere. Masterhatch

Proposed move

I propose moving this article to Sea of Japan naming dispute, for succintness. Is there any objection?--Pharos 00:03, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

I have no problem with the name change. It is shorter and better. --Tkh 00:07, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

Why is this even being debated? We had a vote not long ago. The vote was to use Sea of Japan. Is the vote null and void? Kojangee September 1st, 2005 22:48 Beijing time

Kojangee, I think you misunderstood. The proposed name change is for the dispute article and nothing else. It actually makes sense to shorten it. I am in favour. Masterhatch 1 September 2005

Use Breaks to separate conversations

Somebody said something like, "Japan's trying to brainwash its people, but Koreans are trying as well, to make people think that East Sea was more common than Sea of Japan".

First of all, Sea of Japan began to be used in the early 1800s (I doubt that there's any maps that show Sea of Japan before 1800s, and I've never seen one -if there's one, show me the link). But, all the other names (East Sea, Oriental Sea, Sea of Korea, Sea of Choson, etc.) have been used before the 1800s -some 2000 years. And the main reason why the Japanese were able to alter the name was because it had major influence (Korea was not even on some of the maps in 1800s because it was a hermit kingdom, back then).

Somebody said something like, "East Sea and Oriental Sea mean the totally different things."

Well, that's not true. Oriental means East.

What are you talking about? Yes, Oriental means east, but saying "East Sea (Donghae)" and "Oriental Sea" mean the exact thing is well, ludicrous. Koreans specifically use "(East Sea (Donghae)" to refer to that body of water off their East coast. Oriental refers to the countries and peoples and things east of Europe. Let's not compare apples and oranges. Masterhatch 3 September 2005

Plus, we don't need to argue about the naming of Sea of Japan (no matter what our decisions are, the officials won't care). Let's just make some points clear (i.e. Sea of Japan began to be used since the early 1800s).

P.S. By the way, I was going to change a section to "This sea was called by various names including Bay of Korea, Chinese Ocean, Sea of Corea, Sea of Korea, or Sea of Joseon. But, since the early 1800s, Sea of Japan began to appear more often in maps", but somebody else changed it to a neutral statement. -Wikimachine

See the list of maps the Japanese government investigated. --Tkh 08:26, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

Wanna talk Wiki policies?

Well, there is a wiki "three revert" rule that you don't follow. Also, the study that shows 1400 maps actually shows 1400 maps. That korean study with 700 shows about a dozen with no confirmed date of when the study took place and that study uses a select maps from various sources. It is obviously an incomplete study. Before you cry wiki policy with me, follow wiki policy yourself and stick to the three revert rule. Edit wars are not how wikipedia works. Discussing disputes on the talk page without an edit war is how wikipedia works. Masterhatch 3 September 2005

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