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Editor Wilhelmina Will's no holds barred DYK race -- I propose a temporary ban for her

User:Wilhelmina Will has resorted to personal attacks in edit summaries, for which she has been warned on her talk page, and to reverting substantive edits in articles in order to obtain the correct number of words for DYK.

Apparently she feels so secure in doing this that she is willing to admit that is her sole purpose for reverting. I posted before on AN/I about her plagiarizing articles, and talked to her about it, but she did not respond other than to warn me away from her and admit she didn't understand what she had copied.

This editors reason for being at Misplaced Pages appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals (I still can't believe this is a community issue that people would destroy the encyclopedia's reputation for an anonymous award in cyberspace).

Based on this I have asked that the Mesodermochelys article be removed from candidates for DYK.

She admits she is editing solely for the purpose of the number of words to get the article on DYK to get an award. She plagiarizes but isn't bother about it. The Mesodermochelys article has had to have almost every sentence reworded due to Wilhelmina Will's inability to read scientific articles accurately.

Is this what Misplaced Pages should be featuring on its main page? I don't think so. I think the main page needs a break from Wilhelminia. --Blechnic (talk) 04:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Since the DYK criteria are much stricter than the criteria for inclusion, an editor whose entire purpose is to create articles for DYK and rack up "medals" wouldn't seem to be bad on face. I can't speak to the specific problems this editor is generating but the underlying act should not be suspect in any way. Protonk (talk) 05:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Willing to edit war, revert edits that increased accuracy and clarity in order to have the right number of words, and calling another editor "revolting" are fine by you if used for DYK, then? Ugh. --Blechnic (talk)

(ec) Oh please, Protonk, you seriously think that adding pointless verbiage to an article just to jack up its word count for DYK (which she admits doing - follow Blechnic's links) is serious, useful, appropriate editing? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, I don't know anything about the specific actions the editor in question has done. I'm just contending the general premise of this statement "This editors reason for being at Misplaced Pages appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals (I still can't believe this is a community issue that people would destroy the encyclopedia's reputation for an anonymous award in cyberspace)...She admits she is editing solely for the purpose of the number of words to get the article on DYK to get an award." Protonk (talk) 05:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

She certainly did edit war for the purpose of the number of words for DYK: "My reason is to keep the main body of this article above 1500 bytes. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:49, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

then the problem is the edit warring, not the motivation. the solution (DYK topic ban) is a unique and probably helpful one. I'm just defending the notion that an editor may edit to only contribute to DYK. If we had a (hypothetical) editor that did so without introducing factual innacuriacies, without edit warring and without plagarising, we would lavish them with praise. the underlying motive isn't the problem here, though it is probably key to the solution. Protonk (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Perhaps something like a topic ban? No further DYK submissions from Wilhelmina until the community decides to lift the ban? If that's all she's here for, she's not doing the encyclopedia any favors. (Disclaimer: I have not evaluated Blechnic's post on the merits, but if his factual claims are accurate - which I have no reason to doubt - some kind of a circuit breaker ought to be tripped) (Another disclaimer:I am not an admin) --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I suggest, no DYK submissions or credits for Wilhelmina. I'm more concerned now, after working on this latest article, about her accuracy. She clearly does not understand extinct organisms--what she is currently writing about. --Blechnic (talk) 05:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Perhaps the stated DYK criteria are stricter than the criteria for inclusion, but in practice, an editor can plagiarize an article from another source and have it included in DYK--then we have a big fat copyvio linked from the main page. Wilhelmina Will's behavior is sufficiently problematic that I think she (?) should be given a temporary time-out from DYK--there are credible concerns of plagiarism, and the personal attacks aren't helping. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It is a shame - there are oodles of straightforward stubs (especially in geography and botnay) just itching to be expanded out there without having to get mired in technical detail. I note Fritzpoll has offered to mentor, which may be constructive (?) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think any kind of ban is the answer. Wilhelmina, though a little unorthodox, is a quality contributor; we should not be persecuting her for adding new content. Further, I see little difference in the diffs you've presented, Blechnic; there is no need to go searching for a conflict merely because you dislike a user. I see no inherent problem with trying to get a lot of DYK medals; the end result is lots of high-quality articles for the project. GlassCobra 05:17, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't dislike or like her. Her contributions are not quality, most I've seen are copyvios or wrong. Her science is really bad. --Blechnic (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

There certainly was no reason to revert just to get the article up to the correct size. More can be added to the article, if that's the only DYK concern. The personal attacks while reverting to the ever-so-slightly longer version are problematic. Not to mention the factual accuracy of DYKs "extended" in this manner. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

GlassCobra, follow Blechnic's links, look at her edit summaries and talk page comments. Wilhelmina clearly admits that she's making changes for the sole purpose of jacking up the article's word count just to fulfill her "dream of having made 5000 DYK articles". That is just not on. A DYK ban is the least disruptive way of dealing with this. She could still edit the rest of the encyclopedia to her heart's content, but her incentive to commit copyvio's and insert useless verbiage would be gone. And the ban could be lifted as soon as she sees the light about her conduct. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

After looking at the history of Mesodermochelys, I agree that there are problems with Wilhelmina Will's conduct. But can someone point me to a diff illustrating the copyvio/plagiarism issues that people are talking about above?  Sandstein  05:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

That was another AN/I, not this one. She copied a few phrases for this that should be, in my opinion, in quotes, but the article has mostly been entirely rewritten at this stage. I'll see if I can find a link to the other AN/I.--Blechnic (talk) 05:52, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's a link to at least most of the discussion. I think her latest response to this AN/I thread will pretty much say it all, along with her calling me a "revolting" editor in her edit summaries while reverting substantive edits to keep the number of words high enough for DYK. She didn't respond to the first AN/I, and her initial response to me expressing concern about her copyvios, as I noted above, was to warn me to never "cross paths with her again." --Blechnic (talk) 06:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, let's start a tally, then:

• Support DYK ban for Wilhelmina at least until she tells us she understands and is willing to abide by copyvio rules and stop treating DYK medals as an end in themselves.--Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support Until editor gets her act together and accuracy is part of it. --Blechnic (talk) 05:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Based not only on the attacks in the edit summaries, but even moreso the reversions to simply keep it at the right technical length (versus actually improving the article), I support a decent-length topic ban from DYK for WW. S. Dean Jameson 05:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Per Dean Jameson's reasons (personal attacks in edit summaries, accuracy issues, edit wars based on article length for DYK), I think I'd also support a temporary DYK ban for WW. Firsfron of Ronchester 05:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support DYK ban for Wilhelmina until she clearly starts producing accurate quality articles and shows more civility. (I also think that DYK encourages this sort of thing, earlier this year I found and dealt with multiple issues of copyvio from an editor collecting DYKs). Doug Weller (talk) 06:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support Mesodermochelys isn't the only palaeo article created by her that has been a problem. I've made to make major changes to Mystriosuchus and Corsochelys to make them in anyway accurate. In addition, many of the palaeo articles created by her lack any information altogether (see her sea turtle creations). She seems to be trying to increase the number of articles out of the article request process, which is commendable; however all her palaeo article either are lacking in information or have serious accuracy issues and some copyvios. Mark t young (talk) 10:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose - everytime Wilhelmina has been brought up here, it seems to be you, Blechnic. Just stop it, okay? Sceptre 11:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Just to clarify, it seems that Wilhelmina Will may have been brought up on AN/I more than the twice I brought her up ("everytime Wilhelmina has been brought up here" implies a larger number than two including this one). However, I did not bring her up these other times she was brought up here at AN/I. --Blechnic (talk) 15:51, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think Blechnic deserves great credit for persistence in refusing to let an unpleasant problem be swept under the carpet. JohnCD (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with JohnCD.ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support --CrohnieGal 13:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support for the short term per Mark T. Young, taking his owrd (and others) on copyvios and inaccurate material. I wonder if the situation could be saved by close monitoring and am opne to the idea. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support both a DYK ban and a possible overall short term block. As someone who has a few DYKs under the belt, her actions to attempt to rack up more is not only insulting to other DYK editors, but shows a complete lack of full respect for the rules regarding a DYK. In the last AN/I thread, I was ready to give Wilhelmina the benefit of the doubt, but the continuing on going problems and her responses to these issues make me feel that something more needs to be done here. I was suprised the last thread did not result in a block as she seemed to be ignoring all comments and the offer of mentoring to help correct a major issue with the use of copyrighted material, posting of blatantly false information, and the use of herself as a source. -- ] (] · ]) 14:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support, both a DYK ban, for a couple of months, and a short block for civility violations. Editing Misplaced Pages should be about improving the encyclopedia, not collecting awards. When someone edits an article with an edit summary indicating that the goal of the edit is simply to increase the word count to the DYK minimum rather than to improve content, this clearly demonstrates problematic and unproductive attitude both to DYK and to Misplaced Pages in general. Also, the edit summaries in the first two diffs provided by Blechnic are really unacceptable. There is no excuse for deliberately insulting other editors and the fact that the sole purpuse of WW's edits, according to those edit summaries, was to insult Blechnic, makes it even worse. I would think that a short civility block for WW is warranted just for that. Nsk92 (talk) 14:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support DYK ban as proposed, plus mentoring/adoption if anyone is willing - I seem to remember that someone offered, but I can no longer find that on her talk page. We need to find out whether this editor's undoubted energy and enthusiasm can be channelled towards helping to build an accurate encyclopedia, rather than accumulating number-of-articles-created points and DYK credits. (In view of the amount of trouble it seems to be causing, I wonder whether the whole DYK system is maybe more of a hindrance than a help to WP?) JohnCD (talk) 16:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support; DYK are not an ends, and savaging articles to make them qualify, quality be damned, is not acceptable. — Coren  17:01, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support civility block, not just topic ban. This bald-faced lie in regards to the personal attack diffs provided by Blechnic is an insult to the entire community. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support DYK topic ban and civility block. Plagarism is unacceptable, as are personal attacks. -MBK₀₀₄ 17:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• Support, per all above. –xeno (talk) 17:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
• SupportDYK Topic Ban and Civility Block, and civility and plagarism probations. ThuranX (talk) 18:42, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support If Blechnic, in return, is warned over lack of AGF ("This editors reason for being at Misplaced Pages appears not to be to write articles, but rather to get the DYK medals") and told to stop making personal attacks ("The Mesodermochelys article has had to have almost every sentence reworded due to Wilhelmina Will's inability to read scientific articles accurately."). These actions are not beneficial to an encyclopedia, and instead harmful. These actions are escalating actions and result in further problems. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Those don't look like personal attacks to me, but straightforward reporting of the user's behavior. Corvus cornix_talk 21:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Corvus, you cannot have a more clearer situation of a personal attack than saying someone lacks the ability to read accurately. That is clearly an attack on their person. Remember, NPA states at the top: "Comment on content, not on the contributor." This was a clear breach. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
      • Well, to be fair OR, that is an oversimplification of what Blechnic said - assuming good faith, we can assume that Blechnic was not saying she couldn't read, but couldn't understand the technical details of scientific journals. Not an uncommon problem, even for researchers in the field! :) Fritzpoll (talk) 21:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
        • If I oversimplified "inability to read", then I apologize. However, the language seems to be inappropriate, and this could have been solved by a simple redaction to say there have been problems resulting from her edits that remove the scientific accuracy, instead of blaming her "ability" as the root cause. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
  • While there may be a case for warning Blechnic, I fail to see why the decision about Wilhelmina Will should be conditioned on some warning to Blechnic. —SlamDiego_←T 21:14, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Because Misplaced Pages is about preventative, not punitive, and personal attacks cause discontent between users, which will spiral the problem further out of control. The response to incivility is not to be incivil. We need to state the facts of the case, not discuss the attributes of others, and be as objective as possible. Otherwise, problems escalate. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm not arguing against a warning for Blechnic. (I have not formed an opinion on that.) I'm asking for why the response to Wilhelmina Will should be conditioned on warning Blechnic. If we simply couldn't communicate with Blechnic (and thus could not make a warning), should we let Wilhelmina Will continue? —SlamDiego_←T 22:23, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
        • Ah. It just seems like the situation happens around those two interacting, so the solution would have to be based on their mutual interactions. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:28, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• • Oppose any sanctions against Blechnic. That Ottava Rima is agitating so loudly in Wilhelmina WIll's favor, to the point of now creating two separate disruptive off-topic threads is absurd, and I ask that she be warned by an admin, and any further distracting sub-threads be 'rewarded' with a block for disruption of an AN/I thread. It's clear that Ottava is willing to risk his/her reputation, such as it is, to save WW, which is not going to work. As such, the warning would not only be to keep this AN/I focused but to prevent OR from his/her own worst impulses. ThuranX (talk) 02:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Thuranx, your comments show short sighteness when it comes to fixing the topic, and ignore the fact that I've dealt with mediation between users quite often, have an extensive background in the DYK topic area, and that I already recommended WW be prevented in the matter. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support DYK ban until she gives reason to believe that she will adhere to the spirit of DYK when submitting. That would mean no copyvios (taking Mark T Young's word, which I have found to be reliable in the past) and meeting the minimum DYK requirements legitimately, withiut playing games. I can understand the frustration of falling a few words short and thus rewording things to use a few extra characters and being reverted, but there should be a better way to extend an article that needs extention. Rlendog (talk) 22:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

We seem to be getting off track with all the arguing. There is clear consensus for a preventative DYK ban. However, we need something constructive to assist her with editing articles based upon academic citations. Can I suggest that mentoring is a condition of her DYK ban being recended? Mark t young (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be absolutely necessary. I have already made an attempt to talk to her. Based on her response, we will find out if such a thing is possible on her end. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• Note - this was posted and there appears to be two DYK regulars who suggest opposes to the above in some form or the other. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
  • The only two "suggested opposes" at DYK are me and Bedford, who raised an alternative to a ban that I agreed to support should WW follow up on it. I will always support anything short of a ban, particularly if the user facing the ban shows an inclination towards working for an alternative solution. That seems pretty straight-forward. However, Will has not shown any inclination to anything but continuing to created bad and wrong articles and edit according to her personal desires rather than accuracy.
  • Also DYK users have a link to this discussion and explicit notice of the nature of this discussion should they choose to come here and participate. It is not necessary for anyone to suggest their voices. Did you post a note at Bedford's talk page to let him know you were speaking here for him here at AN/I, thouhg? Thank you, also, Ottava Rima, for speaking for me, but I have clearly spoken for myself above. Please do not speak for me. --Blechnic (talk) 16:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
    • PS I did let User:Bedford know that you spoke for him here, as you have not notified him, according to your user talk contributions history. --Blechnic (talk) 16:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"The only two "suggested opposes" at DYK are me and Bedford" it sure seems like you were opposed in your excessive pursual of this and the extreme lengths you are taking: "I think it is a little excessive. I suggest possibly cooling down a bit. <3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 05:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)". So far, there have been quite a few people questioning your eagerness. Now, you definitely aren't helping your case by acting condescending. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Blechnic is acting "condescending"? I have to say, tu quoque... S. Dean Jameson 02:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggested that she could no longer self-nom until five of her articles were nominated by others,and later placed on the front page. ANI has proven unreliable, and instead of a mass lynching, it is best if those most knowledgeable about DYK practices meet out a reasonable and fair punishment that does not discourage creativity, but does encourage competent prose.--Bedford 16:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:OWN doesn't just apply to articles, you know -- or are you suggesting that "outsiders" are incapable of making judgments based on the available evidence? --Calton | Talk 00:23, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Nominations are not limited to regulars in DYK, anyone can nominate. It was my suggestion, originally, that editors at DYK also discuss a solution, simply because editors at DYK and editors monitoring DYK are the DYK community. There is no door keeping anyone else out, though. The post is linked above, feel free to drop by and contribute to a solution if you like. --Blechnic (talk) 04:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban from DYK for a little while. Right now the concerns of plagiarism and the associated drama have reached the point where her continued participation at DYK is harmful. Vickser (talk) 06:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Request review: protection of John Edwards

{{Resolved}} I've just protected John Edwards for 48 hours. In addition to a fairly pronounced edit war involving multiple parties, there was what I consider to be a significant WP:BLP issue which led me to protect a specific version. Hence I'm submitting the action here for review.

Background: the National Enquirer, a tabloid, recently alleged infidelity on Edwards' part, an allegation which he has denied. Thus far, a number of reputable media organizations are covering the brouhaha over these allegations, though they have taken care to avoid comment on the veracity of the allegations themselves, which appear to be confined only to the Enquirer. There has been a dispute/edit war at John Edwards over both whether the allegations should be included, and if so, how the material should be phrased.

I've left a lengthy rationale on the Edwards talk page for the 48-hour protection and reversion. The protection itself is justified by the edit-war, but the protection of a specific version is always controversial. To summarize: the essence of WP:BLP is that Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid; that we are not Wikinews and getting these issues right takes precedence over getting them in the article right now; that the mainstream sources covering this issue are themselves seemingly skeptical or iffy about the allegations; and that while this material may certainly warrant inclusion, the dispute over the material needs to take place on the talk page, not in the form of edit-warring in articlespace.

Potentially relevant WP:BLP/N thread here, though input was fairly limited.

I'm posting this for feedback and a sanity check from uninvolved editors and admins. Also, as a minor administrative issue: should this be logged as a special enforcement action under the provisions of WP:BLPBAN? I'm hesitant to be the "test case" there, but I believe this protection/reversion are in keeping with that decision. MastCell  17:31, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

On the least important point, I'd only log it under WP:BLPBAN if you are intentionally using that as the basis for your action. GRBerry 17:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd looked earlier at the talk page, in response to a thread above. Nothing relevant has been said since, yet the edit warring continued. The edit warring in and of itself merited protection, regardless of the BLP issue. It seems reasonable to have removed the paragraph also under WP:BLP. The final version before protection was arguably worse than the version being revert warred over. Hopefully in 48 hours there will be additional evidence relevant to determining the appropriate amount of coverage. I'd consider extending the protection to a week however, with a note on the talk page to use {{editprotected}} if an actual consensus version has emerged. GRBerry 17:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I was initially thinking of 3-5 days, but thought I'd err on the side of less protection. I agree about extending it if the same issues persist. I suspect that at the moment Reliable Sources(TM) have their fact-checkers and legal department working on the matter, and the appropriate level, tone, sourcing, etc should hopefully clarify itself shortly. MastCell  18:10, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

See also this recent addition to Story of My Life (novel) by 216.136.25.72. It has twice been re-added since its removal - once by 216.136.25.72, and again by 72.72.203.224. Voceditenore (talk) 18:21, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Semiprotected for 1 week. MastCell  18:48, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you mean fully protected? ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 19:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

At Story of My Life (novel), the questionable material had been inserted solely by IP's, so I've only semiprotected it at this point. MastCell  19:15, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Ack, sorry, I confused the two. ∴ Therefore | cogito·sum 20:11, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• I think protection was the right move based on the edit warring while discussion was taking place. As for inclusion, I think it is possible to include only what the sources say, that the NE reports A but that it remains unsubstantiated. Ramsquire 23:43, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• The protection is called for, but I think an admin needs to take the time to synthesize data on this scandal and edit the article, even while under the protection, to mention the scandal (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression admins can still edit protected pages). At this point, the scandal has been reported in Fox News (here), and dozens of national and international newspapers. The Fox News article contains sourcing independent of the National Enquirer. To allow the pre-scandal version of the page to stand in the midst of a growing media storm is to deny reality, and bring discredit upon Misplaced Pages. Regrettably, this protection is now making Misplaced Pages the subject of controversy. RayAYang (talk) 06:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Good idea, though it's strange without context. How's this at the end of John_Edwards#2008_Presidential_campaign? Edwards' chance of becoming Obama's running mate has likely been dashed by undenied July 2008 allegations published by the National Enquirer..--chaser - t 17:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Since when is a Democrat being a two-timer considered to be news? Now, a Mormon Senator caught messing around in the restroom - that's news. Baseball Bugs 17:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Admins cannot synthesize content information to resolve a dispute; an admin's opinion on a specific content dispute is no weightier than anyone else's, though admins may act to deal with edit-warring, WP:BLP issues, and other policy problems. While admins have the technical ability to edit protected pages, it would be a gross abuse to do so except in narrowly constrained circumstances (see the protection policy). This will have to be solved the good old-fashioned way - by discussion on the article talk pages.

Incidentally, I would strongly encouage outside input on the relevant talk page, since this is a thorny content issue without a clear "right" answer (though there are many, many wrong ones). Bottom lines: Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid. There is no deadline; it's more important to get this right rather than to race to repeat unconfirmed rumors. Outside criticism should not be ignored, but being criticized doesn't necessarily mean that you're doing something wrong. Sometimes, depending on the source, it's a sign that you're doing something right. MastCell  17:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages welcomes outside input. That contrasts with the tabloids, which welcome inside output. Baseball Bugs 23:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand the need to contain a frantic edit war between the warring ideologues from both parties, but the section should be added as "alleged" event. It's been picked up by multiple legitimate news agencies with independent sources.

Comparing this to Senator Craig, or using it as an excuse to dismiss the alleged Edwards scandal by the admins is a joke. Senator Craig's events were performed in front of an undercover officer, who testified as to the events that took place, and Craig admitted to the allegations. Hence, it is NOT alleged. It is fact.

The Edwards situation has received enough mainstream media attention to warrant a section documenting "alleged" or as of yet unresolved events. If or when the events are proven/disproven, the section can be ammended to reflect those changes.

But unless there is an official moratorium on events before they can be added to wikipedia, selective censorship is counterproductive to the wiki community. There are undeniable facts that 1.) SOMETHING took place, 2.) Edwards was present, 3.) all of the witness reports and evidence (from sources outside of The Enquirer), point to the idea that it was an affair or rendezvous.

Either set a timetable for how long an event must sit in purgatory before being added as "alleged" and how many sources and news outlets have to have reported it, or make the changes.

Make rules and enforce them, or adopt a laissez faire attitude. You can't arbitrarily enforce edit and posting rules

Either deal in fact and theory, or only fact. But you can't selectively remove theory. And that applies to everything.69.81.18.5 (talk) 18:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.81.18.5 (talk • contribs) 18:10, 29 July 2008

FYI: redacted link that apparently everyone but me already knew about --Jaysweet (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, thank you - we already have a handful of IP's and new accounts dedicated to spamming that piece on the article talk page. MastCell  18:25, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, haven't really been following it. I was just surprised to see Misplaced Pages mentioned as the second link when I gnewsed for "John Edwards". I have redacted the link, since apparently everyone but me already knew about it :D --Jaysweet (talk) 18:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Consensus has formed on the article talk page on how to address this issue within the article, which I have updated accordingly. I think this thread can be marked as resolved.  Sandstein  07:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This is a BLP issue. Consensus is not the determining factor here. We have a single-sourced allegation from a questionable source. Not good. --jpgordon 14:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Wrong. This is a community issue, therefore consensus is always appropriate. Good! --Dragon695 (talk) 20:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Nope. BLP, like NPOV, trumps any consensus arguments. BLP violations may be removed regardless of consensus. --jpgordon 22:19, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

True. Adding the "Enquirer" allegations as such to the article would violate BLP, which would be a matter beyond consensus. However, the content now at issue is based on articles by British mainstream newspapers concerning the possible impact of the allegations on Edwards' career. That does not, as far as I can tell, violate BLP, because it is based on reliable sources, and leaves open the question of the validity of the allegations themselves. Its inclusion may or may not violate WP:NPOV, good editorial judgment, etc., but that is a matter for consensus to decide.  Sandstein  06:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I've put the article back to semi-protection again, due to a 100% BLP violation or vandalism rate by IP editors or new accounts during the 10 hours it was fully unprotected. As I also reverted some of those edits today, I'm letting the community review my semi-protection. We haven't had any edit warring over this material by autoconfirmed editors in that period. GRBerry 21:59, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Trolling by User:Boldautomatic

I'd be grateful if an uninvolved admin could step in and review the following situation.

Our story starts over at Teaching English as a foreign language where Boldautomatic pops up every now and then to insert a link to a wiki which forms part of the website of ICAL, an online TEFL course provider. The insertion is removed by multiple users, and only when they're on the verge of a 3RR violation does Boldautomatic take it to the the talk page, where they consistently fail to answer (reasonable) enquiries about whether they have a conflict of interest, cast aspersions on the motivations of those who are removing the link, and generally taking umbrage about the fact that their link was deleted.

On reviewing their contributions, ICAL (TESL Provider) had cropped up as a page they created about the organisation itself, which didn't assert any notability whatsoever. I flagged it for deletion under A7 (on the basis that I was semi-involved, so didn't want to delete it myself). That then lead to a whole diatribe of argument on the talk page against deletion by Boldautomatic, which essentially boiled down to (i) other crap exists and (ii) ICAL isn't a website, it's a school. By the time the page, and its talk page, are deleted by Accounting4Taste on the grounds of A7 I'm pretty blue in the face at having to repeatedly explain the concept of notability as it related to online organisations and point the user in the direction of the relevant policies and guidelines.

Sadly it doesn't end there. Boldautomatic then moves to my talk page (starting the conversation with "So, GB, you managed to get the ICAL page deleted. I expect you're feeling very pleased with yourself", which is possibly not the greatest way to open a conversation). You can read the rest of it there, and on their talk page. All the posts fail to actually address the issues with the ICAL article, but instead amount to little more than barely-disguiged baiting and poorly hidden arguments along the lines of "well, if you're not going to let my article stay then this one should be deleted too". By the time the last post comes around this is explicitly clear, but if you're anything like me you'll be bored to tears by that stage.

To cut a long story short (too late, probably), I've answered their questions fully and repeatedly, and once the extent of the trolling became clear, asked them once, twice and three times to stay off my talk page, the last time accompanied by a pointer in the direction of the help desk where they could ask any further questions, and a warning that if they continued to ignore my request I would be asking for them to be blocked. Their response to that post is pretty indicative of their behaviour generally.

It's not clearcut vandalism, so I'm not at WP:AIV, but I'm fed up with the disruption being caused to me by an editor who it is fair to assume has a conflict of interest and I'd be grateful if an uninvolved admin could review and take whatever action they feel necessary. _GB 19:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. I'm having great problems with GB's attitude as an editor. If the deleted page conversation is checked you will find that he requested it be speedily deleted because ICAL is an online school. When I pressed him (I assume it's a him and not a her) on this matter he went back on previous comments and finally admitted that it was requested for speedy deletion because it was not notable enough.

Checking the site, my understanding is that speedy deletion is not actually a remedy for non-notable pages. I am at a loss to understand why GB was so adamant that the page be removed in this manner. Perhaps someone can explain this.

Re talking on GB's talk page - just trying to get a straight answer out of him. They make a comment on my page, I respond on his page. I, for one, am fed up with the rather high-handed attitude GB exhibits and the way in which he has consistently refused to give a plain answer to a straight question, all the time prevaricating and going back on previous comments.

Very disappointed in the standard of this editor! --Boldautomatic (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This is now getting seriously tiresome. My comments on the talk page of ICAL (which I've temporarily restored here for ease of reference) speak for themelves. I start by flagging ICAL under A7 (web) - "an article about a website ... that doesn't indicate the importance or significance of the subject" - he can't say he didn't read that bit, because he quotes it in his first post to the talk page. I end with "None of are predicated about its inclusion or not solely on the basis of whether it's an online organisation, but about notability, and specifically whether it satisfies the criteria of notability as they apply to websites.", and I'm not exactly sure where along the way he gets the idea that I was "prevaricating", "going back on previous comments" or somehow "finally admitted" that it was not notable enough. Halfway through the discussion I am even told to "Forget notability" - an interesting thing to tell me if a little later on I'm supposed to be changing my tune and suddenly saying it's all about notability.

As the talk page shows clearly enough, Bold's responses and arguments were :

1. it's not a website it's a school (answer : no, it's website);
2. why are you biased against ICAL (answer : I'm not);
3. let's delete all the entries that lead onto commercial sites, starting with Microsoft (answer : no, let's not, let's just make sure that non-notable organisations aren't included);
4. I'm going to flag a (physical) school for speedy deletion to spite you then (answer : physical schools don't fall under A7 - have a look right there in the wording of the tag itself, and sure enough the speedy was declined);
5. ICAL is a school because it has students and offices (answer : it's a website, see (1) above);
6. So, online educational establishments aren't allowed on Misplaced Pages, then (answer : they are, if they're notable enough);
7. Forget notability, are ONLINE educational establishments allowed on Misplaced Pages (answer : any organisation is allowed on it's notable and that notability can be verified through reliable sources);
8. "So now we can discount all that you said about about it being removed because it relates to an online instituation" (answer : have you actually read and understood any of the comments above?).

I've been banging my head against a metaphorical brick wall so hard I'm in danger of getting a real headache. Would someone please read the talk page (and that includes you, Bold, since I'm not convinced you actually read any of it first time around) and post their views. When you've finished, Bold, can I suggest you also read this page on speedy deletion - if you had done before writing your post above you'd have found out quite quickly that speedy deletion is a (astonishingly frequently used) remedy for non-notable pages.

As for being "high handed" and being "disappointed in the standard of this editor", well, until Bold answers the (straightforward) question of whether he has a conflict of interest or not, and not that I see anything wrong with how I've behaved, I don't see why I should behave any differently to a user who has, amongst other things, insinuated that (i) the flagging of the page for speedy deletion was an underhand tactic carried out by a rival (oh, out of malice, too), (ii) I must be "very please with self" that ICAL was deleted, (iii) I must work for another commercial organisation because I (and others) removed a link he kept inserting, and (iv) when in the minority, the concensus (sic) is ganging up against him. _Gb 15:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Let me break this down. GB deleted the page because - in his opinion - it referenced a website which was not notable. Thus there were 2 criteria which he needed it to fulfill: 1) it needed to be a website and 2) it needed to be non-notable.

The article was not about a website. It was about a school. A distance learning school. Like OU only smaller. A school with over 10,000 students operating for over 10 years and arguably the largest and most established in its field.

Later on GB admitted that online organisations can have entries here (if they're notable). So that negated the first criterion. He thus wanted to delete it because it was not notable only.

Is ICAL notable? Well considering the above facts about the school that is debatable. In trying to find out the criteria for notability I referenced several other articles which GB was happy to allow on the site, notably this one which he refused to delete because according to him it was "physical" therefore it was allowed. He did not mention the notability of the article I referenced.

Herein lies the problem. GB allowed the Nanjing school to remain (though it contains no verifiable references) because he must have felt it was notable (physicality having been proved to be irrelevant) and yet he deleted ICAL even though it was similar in style and content.

Furthermore, when I tried to establish from GB what aspects of this page constituted notability he steadfastly refused to explain. I know he's unpaid, but it's hardly professional. (I now note that the page in question has been flagged for deletion - not speedy deletion like the ICAL page, note, but a more considered deletion. It is a shame such care could not have been taken over the ICAL page - why was that?)

As for GB's accusation of trolling, I am afraid that I fear this is GB's excuse for not being able to answer my questions in full! --Boldautomatic (talk) 16:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's late and I'll post a full reply in the morning, but in the meantime :

1. If you're going to break things down, at least get them correct. I didn't delete the page, I flagged it for deletion. The policy two criteria are that (a) it was about a website, and (b) the article didn't assert the notability of the website concerned. If you'd actually bothered to read the policies at any stage you'd know this.
2. That'd be, what, the fifth time you've been asked if you have a conflict of interest? Do you? If you have no conflict why the reticence to answer?
3. It's interesting to note how quickly you back away from your assertions about what I said when presented with the actual record of our discussions. In particular I note the speed and ease with which you moved from " requested it be speedily deleted because ICAL is an online school" to " deleted the page because - in opinion - it referenced a website which was not notable" when presented with the substance of our conversation. If only you could read the relevant policies you're being pointed at repeatedly with such ease.
4. I'm loving the irony that despite having wasted untold posts on you, and having asked on numerous occasions whether you have a conflict of interest, without having received the courtesy of a reply, I'm the one that hasn't answered your questions in full.
5. In the time you've spent discussing this you could have re-written ICAL as a featured article, and yet you persist in running the same argument time and time again. Would you still like to assert that you're not trolling?

Let's try and keep the next exchange short and sweet. Do you have a conflict of interest? _Gb 22:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I await GB's full reply in the morning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Boldautomatic (talk • contribs) 08:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, you're not getting it until you answer the question that I have asked you repeatedly. Do you have a conflict of interest? _Gb 08:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't have thought that it would have been that difficult a question to answer. I've provided you with some pointers on your talk page. _Gb 12:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

It is quite simple. It is apparent that boldautomatic has a conflict of interest because it is unlikely that someone who didn't wouldn't be pushing it for this long of a time. Since the school is online, it is covered under webcontent and organizations, under A7. If you want to create an article about this organization, provide 2 reliable sources which cover the subject in depth. As for the other article getting an AfD and not a speedy, that school is actually a subsidiary of a notable university. The question became whether it has any notability on its own, or only in the context of the parent. Your article is not such a subsidiary. End of story is nothing you will do short of providing reliable sources will get the article created. These sources are not press releases, blogs, forums, self-published websites, minor online "news" sites, and don't include trivial coverage like a larger article which name drops the institution or just talks about them for less than half of the article.--Crossmr (talk) 02:00, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

David Tombe

I've blocked David Tombe (talk · contribs) for three months for disruptive editing at Mozart, part of a general pattern of disruption at every article he touches, most notably at Centrifugal force. Some will remember his previous appearances at AN/I in May. I see little prospect of improvement, given his lengthy block history and his refusal to accept advice, and believe that a full ban may be in order. Acroterion _(talk) 21:46, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I support the block: I could not use my administrative tools myself, since I was involved in the editing, and the associated talk page conflict. This is one of the most obvious cases of WP:DEADHORSE I've seen in a while, and it has wasted the time of a lot of people in completely unrelated places. Thank you. Antandrus (talk) 21:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I also support Acroterion's block of this patently disruptive editor. --RobertG ♬ talk 08:34, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

A side note: an IP editor in the range 71.xxx.xxx.xxx or 72.xxx.xxx.xxx pops up reliably when Tombe is blocked to accuse everybody of bad faith and mistreatment of Tombe. Consensus is that it is not Tombe himself, since they appear to be on a different continent, and have a different writing style. The IP can be disruptive on his own account, and WP:RBI should apply. Acroterion _(talk) 17:30, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, they should be blocked to prevent disruption. Ncmvocalist ([[User

talk:Ncmvocalist|talk]]) 17:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

You seem to have confused the facts. David Tombe was attacked by TrustTruth and Rfortner in a nasty way. They should have been the ones blocked. Again, as usual, you have confused the facts.

Community Ban

Thanks. I was heading over here to request this very thing, after seeing the Mozart and Centrifugal force disruptions. I think an outright ban may be in order. Eusebeus (talk) 11:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support community ban. He's been blocked several times within a short timeframe (the last 3 months); the misconduct has not changed, and there is no sign of change or improvement in the future either. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• I suppose I should ask the question: would any admin be willing to unblock? Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose I'd rather see what happens after the three month block before going to a full ban. -- Ned Scott 06:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose as per Ned Scott and standard escalation. Ottava Rima (talk) 06:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

You did not tell the real offenders that they were wrong. They were rude and nasty to Mr Tombe. I think you guys dont like to face the facts. Mr Tome cited actual facts which were summairly rejected in a nasty way. They should have said thank you for your contribution Mr Tombe, but they were rude and nasty. This is a typical behavior of editors of wikipedai. This needs to stop, but you management people let it continue because of your bias. Misplaced Pages needs to offically apologise to Mr Tombe for the bad behavior of its editors who dont actually follow the rules, but require that Mr Tombe has to. I think you are being dishonest in your actions towards Mr Tombe.72.64.63.21 (talk) 12:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The Jew of Linz

The dicussion page topic "False claims about the Jewish descent of the Bethmann family" in the article "The Jew of Linz" contains entries by an anonymous editor, one "Number17 (talk · contribs)" (who also edits under the name "Goodmorningworld (talk · contribs)") who has been systematically removing references cited in this article and in other relevant Misplaced Pages articles, without providing his own supporting references to justify the deletions. I'm not sure if anything can be done about it, but I am drawing the matter to administrative attention. I would ask anyone who attends to these things to read the discussion page topic for details. Please let me know if anything further is required, and the final administrative decision on this matter. Kimberley Cornish (talk) 00:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Note: "Kimberly Cornish" is the name of the author of the book the article concerns. Skomorokh 01:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Kimberley, can you provide us some diffs showing Goodmorningworld and Number17 removing verifiable references? I only see two edits by Goodmorningworld to the recent page history of Jew of Linz, (none by Number17) and they both seem to be constructive. On the other hand, this edit in of yours in particular worries me: . Please realize that if you are actually the author of this book, your editing this page constitutes a potential conflict of interest, and I would strongly encourage you be very careful not to make biased edits like the one above. L'Aquatique 01:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Ignoring the article for a moment, this Number17/Goodmorningworld thing has more to it than meets the eye. Number17 stopped editing in June of last year, and has no contribs since then. Goodmorningworld has <50 contribs and has been editing less than a month, and he uses Number17 as his sig, e.g. here -- hence Kimberly's confusion.

Block log is clean for Number17, so it is definitely not a block-evading sock -- but in any case, it's confusing as hell. Maybe he just lost his password from his previously retired account? heh... I will ask Goodmorningworld about it on his talk page, as well as notify him of this ANI thread. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Heh, their interests seem diametrically opposed too... maybe GMW didn't realize there was already a user Number17? In any case, I eagerly await his clarification. :) --Jaysweet (talk) 18:24, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

When I registered to Misplaced Pages, I wanted "Number17" for my user name, in order to be consistent with postings of mine on other message boards, where I already use "Number17". However, Misplaced Pages told me that "Number17" was not available as a user name, so I made up another user name instead, i.e., "Goodmorningworld", and used the "Nickname" feature of the Misplaced Pages system to have "Number17" appear as my signature. I intended no deception by this. See WikiAnswers page here for where my discussion with Cornish began, I used "Number17" there and wanted to use it here as well to avoid confusion. (The thread on WikiAnswers has been locked by the management and edited, there is one error about a third of the way down where the WikiAnswers people put in a bolded "Number17" twice in succession by mistake, other than that their edit is accurate.)--Number17 (talk) 14:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

UPDATE: I am still new to Misplaced Pages and learning the ropes. I just discovered the page on fringe theories. Based on my reading of that page, I am proposing that the entire "Jew of Linz" page be classified as "Pseudoscience". --Number17 (talk) 19:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

MOUNTAINS OF MADNESS: See, this "Jewish Bethmanns" canard is actually just one minor strand in Cornish's whacky book. It just happens that I already knew a bit about the Bethmann history. But if the book in its entirety is a mountain of madness, we've barely even reached the foothills. There is a great deal more craziness. Take, for example, this bit from Cornish's self-promotional Wiki (he refers to himself in the third person): "Cornish also points out that the pianist and composer Franz Liszt Franz Liszt had abandoned the mother of his children, the Comtesse Marie d'Agoult, for Princess Carolyne Wittgenstein, who had taken the Liszt/d'Agoult children away from their mother. Liszt's daughter, Cosima Liszt, thus grew up hating Jews and her father's paramour Carolyne Wittgenstein in particular. (Cornish quotes the opera singler Dietrich Fisher-Deskau as his authority for Princess Wittgenstein's Jewishness.)"
This is nuts, totally nuts! Regardless of what Fischer-Dieskau had to say (if Cornish even quotes him accurately at all), of course Princess Wittgenstein was not Jewish!
Cornish is amazingly productive in throwing out factual claims, many of which upon closer inspection turn out to be false. But who has the time to go over every one of these claims with a fine-toothed comb, ferret out the false ones, and then spend weeks and months fighting Cornish tooth and nail over each and every one of them (for he simply refuses to acknowledge when he is wrong)?
I for one would not trust Cornish to give me the time of day!--Number17 (talk) 19:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation regarding the username confusion. I would suggest putting a brief explanation on your user page so that people understand what's going on here. Normally, putting a different nickname in the sig is fine, but since it's the name of a different user, that causes some confusion. Luckily, that user appears to be retired, so I think this is okay.

Regarding the difference of opinion over The Jew of Linz, I would remind both parties that AN/I is not for resolving content disputes. I would urge you both to continue to engage in dialog in an attempt to find a compromise, and if you can't, I would recommend various forms of dispute resolution. One place to start would be either Request for Comment or the 3rd Opinion noticeboard. I can help you fill out an RfC if you would like, but first, try to work things out yourself if you could. Let me know on my talk page how you would like to proceed. Thanks! --Jaysweet (talk) 19:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:BLP violations on Talk:Barack Obama

Moved to Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/BLP_vios_on_Obama_Talkpage

That should pretty much kill any discussion of the issue. Nice work. Kelly 19:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Swampfire

I have been harassed by this user for some time if you go to his User talk:Swampfire page you will see that an admin left a warning there to stay away from my talk page but he has left continued messages there. He continues to edit war on the Forrest Griffin article despite myself and all other users taking part in a disucssion, he takes the liberty of making his own edits without anybody reaching a consensus. I believe his edits are in bad faith as he has distorted the articles references to cite things that they do not reference and he has written the article so that it hides noteworthy information while pandering to his own opinion on a subject as if it were fact. I have tried to get an admin to arbitrate but my calls have gone unnoticed or ignored. --Xander756 (talk) 04:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't really have time to look into this in too much detail (I just wanted to let you know that this is being looked into), however I would remind you that rollback is only to be used for blatant vandalism, not when you disagree with another's edit as you did here, and at several other places in that page's history. I have removed the tool from your account - if you demonstrate that you will use it only for vandalism, it can be reinstated. Regardless, the situation will be looked into - don't think you're being ignored, and I've notified Swampfire of this discussion so that he can explain his reasoning for what's going on. Hersfold 05:22, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Please note that I have not used rollback function in this scenario, all reversions I have used the undo function, not rollback. I use rollback when patrolling recent changes on[REDACTED] or reverting vandalism on lacrosse articles as part of my function on the wikiproject: lacrosse. I would appreciate re-instation. --Xander756 (talk) 05:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Four diffs have been left on your talk page that show the use of rollback in this conflict. Hersfold 05:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

When you check into him. Also note the reverts that were just made. I believe Xander756 has now resorted to sockpuppetry. After he returned to the page and left the new subsection alone. 2 mysterious accounts were created the first one has one edits in it. And it was to revert my last additon. The second new account also has one edit, and it was to remove the new subsection. Kind of weird don't you think for a new user to create an account and come directly to Forrest griifins page and do this. They both seemed to remove exactly what Xander756 doesnt want on the page, and yet that are their only editsSwampfire (talk) 05:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Also both I and User:Aktsu have rewritten this article to a NPOV. But Xander756 refuses all edits at placing it to a NPOV. What he wants said is in there, it was not deleted. It was expanded on to represent the entire scenario with valid citations. That he has removed more than once. Also he has abuse WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL while attacking me on several occasions. All of which are evidenced on his talk page , but he has tried to hide themSwampfire (talk) 05:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Aktsu has since expressed his doubt over that edit on the discussion page of Forrest Griffin. I wonder if he would be surprised to see you are claiming him to be your ally in this? --Xander756 (talk) 05:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Here are the 2 accounts that mysteriously showed up to remove exactly what Xander745 has been removing. The first one was Deshicalanor here is the first removal and here is the second by user CthulhuGuldo also I notice that both of these mysterious accounts showed up to remove these at almost the same time, he had his rollback removed according to what is said up there^^^^ by Hersfold. According to edits made by Xander756 he left a comment on Forrest Griffin talkpage at 5:17 then disappears, then still at 5:17 Deshicalanor shows up to remove what I had just editted and Xander756 did not want there and it is the one and only eddit by this user. Then at 5:20 CthulhuGuldo shows up to remove the subsection Xander756 doesnt want on the page and again it is the one and only edit by this user as well, Then at 5:22 Xander756 leaves a message on Hersfolds talkpage asking for his rollback back. Funny how Xander made no edits between 5:17 and 5:22 at the exact time the 2 sockpuppets showed up to remove what Xander didnt want on the page.Swampfire (talk) 05:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

And what I said about Aktsu was he rewrote the article and you reverted it too. The proof of his rewrite is on my talkpage.Swampfire (talk) 05:54, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If you look at my edit history I actually made an edit to the talk page of Forrest Griffon at the exact time this first "sock puppet" showed up. Links here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Forrest_Griffin&diff=prev&oldid=228752060 and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Forrest_Griffin&diff=228752040&oldid=228745421 I would not be surprised if this was another scheme to try to get me into trouble here by Swampfire. Is it just mere coincidence that after these accounts showed up an IP address began to defile my talk and user page? Is there any policy against accusing people of things without evidence? --Xander756 (talk) 06:45, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I already stated I have nothing to hide let them check my IP. Also I believe you left the comment on the talkpage at around 5:17:01, while already having a page open creating a new account. Then logged out of Xander leaving the new account page open and made the edits at around 5:17:59. then created a second, to remove the rest. at 5:20, then logged back in and went to Hersfold page at 5:22 to complain about no longer having rollback.Swampfire (talk) 07:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I also found a third and new personal attack on me here yet another clear viloation of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL against me.Swampfire (talk) 07:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything in that diff that is a violation of either. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Editing restriction

What I see here is both editors aggressively edit-warring on the Forrest Griffin article.

I propose that both Swampfire (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Xander756 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are subject to an editing restriction of WP:1RR for 2 months on the Forrest Griffin article. Should either editor violate this restriction, they are to be subject to short blocks of no longer than a week. After 3 blocks, the maximum block duration may increase to 1 month. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

No way - these guys have never been blocked, let alone for edit warring. I'm seeing nothing remotely near the sort of disruptive behaviour need for an editing restriction. Get them to file an RfC on the content dispute - that's all that's needed for now. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:24, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Ideally, this was intended as a measure to be preventative in edit-warring on the article (and possibly more effective in letting the message sink in than blocks). Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

As I said, let them file an RfC, if that doesn't work, then mediation might be a better course of action. All of these should be tried before we result to editing restrictions. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

They've tried to get others input for a few days now - but it hasn't significantly changed their editing pattern on the article. I still don't see why we should wait for blocks first, or why they shouldn't be subject to 1RR as opposed to the standard 3RR per 24 hours (note - it's not the 1RR per week restriction). If it was just a content dispute in the absence of edit-warring over a number of days, I'd agree - Article RFC or mediation is enough to deal with content issues. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:36, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

We don't give people editing restrictions for edit warring on an article over a couple of days. Send them to MedCab and be done with it. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

FYI, it's been 5 days. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Ryan - despite the flaming row that broke out on my talk page after I logged off last night, neither of these editors would be benefited by such a restriction at this time. Should the dispute continue - and this should possibly be considered anyway - the page can be fully protected until both sides can agree on something, even if it is just to disagree with each other. An editing restriction will just continue tensions; what we need to do is try to get these guys to actually talk to each other. Hersfold 16:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the reason that a solution such as this would be unfair is that I have been attempting to get other's input on the subject. I was the one who appealed for admin arbitration and who messaged admins in an attempt to get a 3rd opinion. I have been the one to attempt a discussion before edits while he has simply tried to force his way onto the article. To treat us both equally would then be unjust. If you look on my talk page, the other user who was involved in the debate has posted that he thoroughly agrees with me and that I was right in defending my position. Why then should I be punished for this? --Xander756 (talk) 16:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It takes two to edit war - yes, you did attempt to start discussion, but you then need to stop edit warring, which you didn't. It's standard procedure to treat both parties equally, as it would be considerably more unfair for us to "take sides" in that manner. Hersfold 17:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Per Hersfold. Also, it's not as a punishment - it's just so you both don't edit-war, and instead, discuss your differences rationally. Personally, I think that if both of you voluntarily agree to the restriction, you'll feel much more compelled to edit in a way that isn't considered disruptive. But if this dispute grows from being between both of you to several editors on either side, then sadly, the page will be fully protected and you won't be able to edit it at all - you'll only be able to discuss on the talk page (which is sort-of what this proposal was encouraging - discussion to the point you have consensus, rather than revert after revert). Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually rooting for the page to be fully protected. I requested it days ago but my request mysteriously vanished. I would be all in favor of full page protection until the discussion can reach a general consensus. As for what Hersfold claimed about how it would be unfair for you to "take sides", I don't see the logic in that. Would it be unfair to block someone from[REDACTED] for repeated vandalism? In effect by doing so you would be taking the side against him. Obviously nobody here would claim that is unfair, and this scenario is no different. --Xander756 (talk) 17:35, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Well genuine content disputes are different to WP:VANDALISM. When it's a content dispute where you both appear to be genuinely trying to improve the encyclopedia/site in terms of quality, it's generally not so easy to know who's causing the edit-warring, or to rule on content (as in, who's correct, or which version should preside). Obviously, exceptions apply - and sometimes you can see who's causing the edit-warring. Ideally, all editors should follow the Bold, Revert, Discuss cycle. You boldly insert something, someone reverts it, then you both discuss your differences as to why it should/shouldn't be included, or why/how it should be modified. Consensus does change over time - if someone boldly remove something that's been there for a long time or as a result of a previous consensus discussion, that can be reverted, and then the cycle starts again. When editors use the Bold, Revert, Revert, Revert...cycle (or with unresolved discussion in between each revert), it's considered disruptive edit-warring and damages the encyclopedia. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

That is not how it played out at all. The other user reverted edits from the page without reason. Another user reverted his reversion. He reverted the edit for a second time so I then reverted his reversion. He reverted AGAIN and I changed it back and added a new reference. He didn't bother reading it and simply reverted it again. I asked for admin arbitration and I asked for a 3rd opinion. I even asked for page protection and NOTHING HAPPENED. I wasn't going to simply sit there for days while someone vandalized an article and the staff didn't bother to step in.--Xander756 (talk) 17:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the 'staff' here are all unpaid so it can take some time before your concerns or issues are addressed. What was the conclusion(s) at 3rd opinion? Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It never came. Though another user involved did recently weigh in on my talk page stating that he clearly thinks I was correct in the issue. --Xander756 (talk) 18:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I have to log off now and won't be on for some time. I recommend you take a look at our dispute resolution system, and try either Article RFC, mediation, or if necessary, RFC on user conduct (bear in mind that 2 users need to certify the basis of the dispute). See how you go from there, and let me know of any updates (maybe tomorrow), okay? Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If you actually look at the edits, You will see after removing the word because it did not belong. I since then have continually tried to add the full context of the discussion. I even incorporated what he wanted said into the article with valid citations. He reverted, removing valid citations as he only wants exactly his wording in it with no explanation over why less than 15% of the crowd viewed it as controversial. To use the word controversial in the context it was used without explanation in an encyclopedia format gives the impression that a majority viewed the fight this way. When in fact 80-85% viewed the fight positively and 15-20% or less viewed as controversial. Dave Meltzer (someone that Xander756 had quoted in this several times) of Yahoo! Sports was there and states. When Griffin was announced as the winner, I made sure to look at the crowd for the reaction. Eighty to 85 percent people at Mandalay Bay standing and cheering, with a large percentage practically dancing and celebrating the title change.. Dave Meltzer also says this In those situations, boos are always louder than cheers, but this was very clearly a decision most of the crowd agreed with, no matter how it may have sounded on television. So in an encyclopedic article over the Biography of a living person to state the fight would in that manner would be going against WP:DUE. So if you actually try looking at the whole discussion. You will see I have continually tried to improve the article while it is Xander756 that has not. I have also been a victim or personal attack by Xander on several occasions. Also I Initiated the discussion on Forrest talkpage not him. He was the one that chose to take it off the talkpage and me responses on his talkpage was just that responses to him leaving something on mine. The timestamps show that. I have tried in every manner to appease this person. He clearly stated his only beef was he wanted it to say controversial. Well I editted to say that that but with a full explanation. In fact let me take this one step farther. If he truly thought it was the fight that was controversial he would of added the word controversial to Jacksons page as well but he had never even been to Jacksons page. In fact I had monitored Jackson page the whole time and the word was never there. In fact when someone finally placed it there a lil over a day ago. I removed it and no one cared. Then I made an addition to Jackson's page expanding over something that wasn't there. Xander756 followed me to the page(making his first edit on it) and reworded a lil portion I had added, which I had no problem with. But in the edit summary he noted that he hoped we could agree on Jackson's article as is. Yet if you look he did not try to add controversial. Which is as I have been saying the whole time. If it is not obvious to others, It is obvious to me that I believe that his only problem is he has issue with Forrest, and not the decision. Otherwise this whole time he would of been trying to add it Jackson's page as well.Swampfire (talk) 13:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Also I have never harassed him, stalked him, and all the other things he has claimed. All you have to do is view the timestamps to see this. I have just merely had to defend myself on about 100 pages, because he goes everywhere making false claims. If he had not tried this stuff on so many pages. I would not of had to go there to defend myself. But he tries to do the same thing on so many different boards. He goes there and make a false claim against me as well as personal attacks. When I go there to defend myself he says I am stalking and harassing him for doing so. Check my edits vs his. You will see to my knowledge I have not been on any other pages after him, unless it was about me. I havent left a message on his personal talkpage unless it was in response to something he left on mine. I can also point to atleast 3 places where he persoanlly attacked me. Not including calling me a stalker. Also note that through all of this I have merely defended myself, and did not try to start any cases against him.Swampfire (talk) 15:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

User:aktsu has weighed in on the subject in agreement with me. --Xander756 (talk) 16:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The original conflict was over the inclusion of the word "controversial". Xander756 added (diff) multiple source with atleast one spelling it out ("Griffin Snatches UFC Title with Controversial Win"). Xander's reverts readdind the word I agreed with, as it _was_ a controversial decision - and it was sourced. The conflict escalated to be about a rewrite of the entire section (which I helped wrote as an attempt at a compromise). Xander felt the rewrite was unnecessary and too long, while Swampfire argued it was a good compromise as it explained the controversy. In that conflict I was originally for the rewrite, but am now unsure - and think maybe simply saying it was controversial might suffice. --aktsu  16:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm afraid there's nothing that can be done here about it. Article RFC or mediation as linked in WP:DR is the way to go. I've basically spelled out the editing rules for both of you, so don't edit-war, and instead, discuss. Until then, try to agree to a temporary version pending the resolution of Article RFC and/or mediation. Currently, that's best for both of you, and for the encyclopedia. Thank you for giving a bit of context Aktsu. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

He has returned again to vandalize removing valid cited references. In an effort to make the article onesided. As I have stated. Also note I think he will never quit vandalizing without intervention. The second paragraph of WP:DUE clearly states using the minority view over the section is not to be done and the reason's why.Swampfire (talk) 00:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Please ban Jokestress from editing the article about Simon LeVay

Simon LeVay has publicly complained about the way that Jokestress edited the article about him, pointing out that she inserted many misleading and poorly sourced claims about his scientific work, and that she was motivated to do this by personal hostility . However, Jokestress has continued to edit this page , has recently tried to use NARTH (an anti-gay organization) as a source for a quote from LeVay, and has proposed inserting further controversial and derogatory material related to eugenics . I strongly urge that Jokestress be banned from making any further changes to this article; her past behaviour there probably amounts to a violation of BLP. Skoojal (talk) 08:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• This would be extremely unusual for Jokestress, who usually researches content thoroughly and understands WP:BLP very well having been subject to defamatory edits on the article about her. Is there an OTRS ticket? Guy (Help!) 12:57, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

With all respect, I do not think that this is correct. Jokestress used a defamatory quote from Roy Porter about LeVay, which implied that LeVay endorsed the use of eugenics to prevent homosexuality. Jokestress is currently proposing comparing LeVay to an infamous Nazi, Carl Vaernet. This would obviously violate BLP. Skoojal (talk) 22:41, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

• Seems to me more a content dispute than anything else. If LeVay has concerns about his portrayal on[REDACTED] which can be deemed violations of BLP, then contacting OTRS is an option. Looking at the history of the article, it seems Skoojal could be considered to be approaching ownership boundaries given the substantive nature of recent edits and edit summaries which seem to indicate writing on behalf of the subject. Minkythecat (talk) 13:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Nearly every single piece of criticism of LeVay that Jokestress added to the article was misleading, and it was appropriate for me to remove this stuff (I wish I had done it more quickly). It created a very distorted and inaccurate picture of LeVay's work. In the case of the Porter quote, it was also defamatory. Skoojal (talk) 23:25, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Jokestress has a substantial history of engaging in off-wiki attacks against scientists she doesn't like (such as by writing letters to their employers recommending they be fired), and creating (or substantially editing) their bio's on[REDACTED] to make the pages appear to back her accusations up. Typically, these are sex researchers who have published data in RS's that challenge user:Jokestress sociopolitical views. My opinion is that user:Jokestress is in clear violation of WP:COI in editing Ray Blanchard, J. Michael Bailey, Ken Zucker, and related pages. When contested, User:Jokestress will use the talk pages to convince other editors that off-wiki accusations should be recorded on WP, but fail to reveal that she herself was the very person who filed those accusations with the scientists' employers. For example, see Talk:J._Michael_Bailey#Scientific Misconduct?. In my opinion, she should be banned from editing not only Simon LeVay, but sex researchers in general.

In the way of my own full disclosure: I am myself a sex researcher. Although user:Jokestress has never targeted me (outside of snide comments she makes about me on her personal website), I am of course acquainted with some of the people she has targeted, many of whom are colleagues of mine.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 13:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This situation is similar to a number of previous situations where I have edited controversial biographies and editors with strong POVs have objected. My goal is to be fair but not to shy away from controversy. In the case of LeVay, User:Skoojal has been systematically removing quotations from noted academics and others who have drawn clear connections between LeVay's endorsement of "a new eugenics" and historical problems with labeling oppressed minorities such as gay people as biologically distinct. These include Nancy Ordover, who discusses LeVay at length in American Eugenics, and noted historian Roy Porter, whose review of LeVay in the New York Times has already been purged by Skoojal. Skoojal is also resisting any mention of LeVay's connection to eugenics, which I have proposed on the talk page before adding. Most of Skoojal's edits, on the other hand, are unilateral deletions, and his talk page gives a sense of how he interacts with other editors and administrators when confronted about edit warring and BLP (here and here). Examples:

• "I do not need your condescending advice."
• "Please don't be arrogant and tell me what to do."
• "If you yourself don't have the power to block me, you are wasting your time telling me that I can be blocked."

Just as troubling, Skoojal has been systematically removing other reliable sources he does not like. This does feel like a case of WP:OWN, despite Skoojal's claims to the contrary on his User page.

As for User:James Cantor, his first order of business involving me on Misplaced Pages was to add unflattering information to my Misplaced Pages bio: "Some scholars have likened her as 'the Al Sharpton rather than the ML King sort' of activist." The source for this quotation was a blog, and the quotation was made by him. Adding himself as a source for unflattering commentary in my bio reflects his ongoing efforts to suppress dissent and discredit critics of his employer, the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health. In other words, both complaints above seem to be based on their antipathy for me because I have included reliably-sourced but unflattering information in biographies of controversial people with whom they agree and/or work. In James Cantor's case, he has already gone through a mediation (here) for his attempts to add negative information to critics' biographies, including mine. He reminds me of other editors engaged in questionable "science" who attack biographies of scientific skeptics like Stephen Barrett. James Cantor accuses me of some sort of impropriety daily and is trying to import a style of interaction to which he is accustomed off-wiki.

Thanks to my fellow long-time editors who weighed in above. Jokestress (talk) 15:38, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Jokestress's claim above is false - I have not removed the quote from Nancy Ordover (although I may possibly do that at some time in the future if, on further investigation, I decide that it is inappropriate). The 'quotations from noted academics' were deeply misleading in almost every single case. Jokestress's quotations from me are also misleading - most them in fact apply only to one edit warring incident and none of them apply (as she implies) to BLP. Skoojal (talk) 23:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The COI seems pretty blatant at Talk:J._Michael_Bailey#Scientific Misconduct?, but past precedent doesn't give me any confidence that proper action will be taken in this matter. SashaNein (talk) 19:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure we can ban her, but a review of Levay's critique certainly would be right about the duplications being unneeded (id they still exist.) However, looking over the linked articles, she certainly seems to be heavily pushing an agenda against anyone who suggests that homosexuality may be genetically predetermined. If a ban is placed, it probably ought to be a topic ban on the topic of 'research and researchers into the causes and origins of homosexuality', so as to widely cut her off from causing fights, while certainly allowing her to continue editing articles about gay and transgender (transsexual? gender Identity? not sure which is PC these days) topics, like activisms, histories, protests and conferences. ThuranX (talk) 22:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I have also removed an odd ending to the article; we don't need to attack fellow editors, nor ... SOAPBOX... (i messed that up in the edit summary)... about how accurate it is. Levay can go to OTRS, he can register and bring this all to the article talk, or other options, but let's not play childish games on the page. ThuranX (talk) 22:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, my removal of a WP:SOAPBOX vio is causing troubles at the page now. I removed it because it's a poorly worded attack on Jokestress, citing a blog-like essay by the article's subject, which at best is a Primary source, not personal essay (blog?). I feel that regardless of her behavior, and of the fact that I support a broad topic ban for her, per my suggested definition above, the article should not become or be used in any way as a platform for him to war back with her. This is better accomplished by linking his essay to the talk page and reviewing it to fix the problems. I took a once over of the article, where I find a lot of time being spent playing with refs and warring over how to snipe at each other. most of the article consists of pulling out Levay quotes and SYNTH'ing up an article. Frankly, locking the regs out for a week and bringing in one of the rescue squads would do more than anything else. ThuranX (talk) 00:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I believe that ThuranX is on the right track, but I believe also that genetics of homosexuality is only one of several agenda’s Jokestress is pushing. Another such topic is conversion therapy. Conversion therapy (or reparative therapy) is a process by which some clinicians attempt to change homosexuals into heterosexuals (usually with some levels of homophobia and religiosity motivating the endeavour). In order to discredit him, Jokestress recently started pushing the agenda that Ken Zucker engages in such therapies (which he does not). Jokestress tried changing the definitions on conversion therapy to make it seem like he does , editing Ken Zucker’s bio to make it say he does , adding the same text to the bio of Susan Bradley (a colleague of Zucker’s)], and editing new pages to express the same idea yet again ]. Thus, I believe a broader topic ban is in order.

I believe that SashaNein is correct to note Jokestress’ obvious COI with regard to J. Michael Bailey. However, Jokestress’ off-wiki involvement includes many sex researchers, as noted above. Her personal website include copies of her own letters to scientists’ employers and others. Thus, this too suggests (to me) that a broader topic ban is in order.
— James Cantor (talk) (formerly, MarionTheLibrarian) 00:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to assume that Joketress is doing the right thing. Can we take a breather and look into this before a topic ban? Bearian (talk) 00:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have undone ThuranX's change to the LeVay article. It is extremely unusual to attempt to deprive LeVay of the chance to respond to misleading and defamatory accusations about him. Giving LeVay the chance to do this is not a 'childish game' but a perfectly appropriate response to James's insertion of rubbish into the article about him. The fact that Andrea James is a[REDACTED] editor does not mean that she is above criticism. Skoojal (talk) 00:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have REblanked that part. The edit Skoojal refers to adds a violation of at least three policies: WP:NPA, WP:BLP, and WP:SELFPUB. I am hitting 3RR, but my understanding of BLP is that that supersedes 3RR. Admins who aren't going to log off right after posting they're all over this are welcomed to review this. ThuranX (talk) 03:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Skoojal, you may be right or you may be wrong, but doing it this way in a matter this much disputed was not a good idea. As for the blanking, let's wait a while before deciding whether to undo it. Let uninvolved editors do what is necessary.

I've tried to work on some of this before, and i have my own opinion: everyone involved in the editing of these articles mentioned above has COI sufficient to disqualify them from the topic. This should not be read as endorsing any position. It is possible that all their negative criticisms of each other are all of them right to a certain extent--that is often the case in academic disputes. It is also possible that some of it for all of them is unjustified abuse--that is even more often the case in academic disputes. I suggest we leave them all to their own web sites, for we will not settle the issues here. But if Bearian wants to look into all of this and conduct a binding mediation of the issues, or an evaluation of just who should be banned from what, I can think of nobody better who is still with us. That's not formal procedure, but this is a model case for IAR. the alternative is to send this all to arbcom and wait three months for a result that will be no more reliable. DGG (talk) 03:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The No Personal attacks policy is not relevant. Invoking it here in effect means saying that James, as a[REDACTED] editor, is above any kind of criticism, which I find shocking. If an editor becomes involved in events and does something wrong, then it should be acceptable to mention this in articles about them (and especially in an article about someone that person has attacked - how is it OK for James to insert something defamatory into the article about LeVay but not OK to mention that the person thus defamed objected to it?). As regards BLP, it's up to ThuranX to say how specificially it is relevant in this case. I will be strongly inclinced to restore any deleted content. Skoojal (talk) 07:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I would also note that ThuranX appears to have made a personal attack against Simon LeVay on the talk page. Perhaps I have misinterpreted that comment, and perhaps ThuranX will be willing to retract it, but if not, then his involvement in this dispute perhaps becomes problematic. Skoojal (talk) 09:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

This is childish wikilawyering. One: LeVay makes a lot of disparaging claims about James in his piece. Two, what SELFPUB is perfectly clear about why it shouldn't be included. Three, one gay sex researcher/activist attacking another gay sex researcher/activist in his blog is a violation of BLP, plain and simple. Any of these three is enough to justify removal. Further, it's an out of place comment, placed in the sexual research section. Finally, the claim was made that this dispute was covered in reliable sources. Use those reliable sources to build a criticism section, do not link to what is little more than a blog. I'm not, as Skoojal keep hinting, opposed to Levay standing up for himself. I'm not opposed to Levay at all. However, That link and subsection are not the right way to advocate for his side, which we shouldn't be doing at all. I've made clear how to solve this problem, Skoojal is just not interested in paying attention. There are no personal attacks agaisnt Simon LeVay, this is a red herring to try to keep me from commenting. ThuranX (talk) 13:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Accusing someone (namely LeVay) of acting as though he were using meat puppets (myself and James Cantor) certainly may look as though it is a personal attack, even if it is not. It's important not just to not make personal attacks, but to not make comments that could easily be interpreted as such. In addition, I will note that ThuranX seems to be implying that LeVay's and James's sexuality has some relevance to whether there is a BLP violation here or not. I find this to be a deeply disturbing and unpleasant suggestion. Perhaps ThuranX could retract that comment, or clarify that that is not what he thinks?Skoojal (talk) 23:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring by Skoojal

Further, as the history on that page shows, Skoojal is edit warring. I've provided multiple comments and explanations here and at the talk page for the removal of a smear piece against a living person, and without addressing the issues (other than to throughly dismiss them) He has three times in 24 hours restored them, even after being told to stop by user DGG. As such, I request a 24 hour block to prevent further edit warring. As it is a BLP, NPA, and SELFPUB violation, I will have to remove it again fr reasons I've repeatedly made clear, and do not want to see this distract from the major issues at the article. ThuranX (talk) 13:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to ask all of the involved parties to take a break, immediately, for at least 24 hours from this article. I'll block on sight otherwise. Bearian (talk) 15:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. You logged off after calling me an idiot, and now you're issuing threats against people who got involved here? Lock down the article if you really think there's a problem, to prevent sock use. Otherwise, this is just an intimidation technique designed to keep uninvolved editors from contradicting you as you let Jokestress off the hook. ThuranX (talk) 15:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I've never called anyone "an idiot" or anything close to it. Anyway, even if I log off you can always email me at my Hotmail account 24/7. Bearian (talk) 17:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC) P.S. Jokestress is not off the hook yet. Bearian (talk) 17:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have stopped edit warring, having been warned by Bearian. I was not the only person doing this - ThuranX was equally guilty. The description of LeVay's response to the way James edited the article about him as a 'smear piece' is misleading, especially since LeVay was responding to a probably defamatory claim about him made by James. I accept that SELFPUB is an issue; I do not necessarily agree that other policies were violated. Skoojal (talk) 00:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this the right place for this?

It seems that this isn't just about whether Jokestress should be banned - several editors are accusing each other of serious misconduct in different articles, some of which are BLPs. Would it might be better for ArbCom to open a case on this, for all the evidence be weighed up, and for all the contributors' conduct to be considered? SHEFFIELDSTEEL 16:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Several editors asked me to get involved as a mediator. I've tried to keep all parties calm, short of actually banning or blocking anyone involved. Perhaps I got involved too late. It appears to me to be an off-wiki conflict cascading into a BLP edit war. I've insisted on following the rules as near as possibly without Wikilawyering. ArbCom may take months, and as User:DGG has pointed out, may not be a satisfactory process in this case. Bearian (talk) 17:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

While we are discussing this, I would certainly urge Bearian to go right ahead and do whatever blocks he thinks necessary to end disruption. DGG (talk) 17:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I've made a final warning here to User:Skoojal. Bearian (talk) 17:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Agnistus

I'd like to bring to your notice some harassment from an editor named Agnistus, who I came in contact with whilst editing the article Zakir Naik. What started off as a small edit war over what to include and what not in a WP:BLP, has now turned into a kind of mischief that he's begun playing on me. He has
a) stalked me to see what other article I was editing and then left behind a personally attacking comment on that article's talk page See
b) Asked me for my personal details (phone number and email ID) saying he wanted to talk to me on phone. See
c) Then, when I politely declined to divulge personal information , he said (in an innocent-looking manner) that he also wants to discuss some stuff regarding Islam (I think that was because I've mainly been editing Islam-relating articles out here and also because I am a Muslim). Thinking him to be a genuine inquisitor I agreed to answer his queries if I could, but he has now converted the discussion into a kind of argument and is posting my answers (from this section of my talk page) onto Zakir Naik's talk page, and is making now personal attacks towards me and Islam (See Edit summary -> in general. I've asked him to not spam that talk page with irrelevant information and proposed (in good faith) that we continue discussion on my talk page; I've even initiated it myself by replying to his comments on my own talk page and left a link to it on Zakir Naik's. But his latest comments on my talk page say he wants a kind of public debate (about Islam?) so that people may benefit from it See , AND he has also given me comment containing a block-warning for having made recent edits to Naik's article (please note that the edits in question are being discussed over on the talk-page and there has not been any consensus towards them. Agnistus has chosen not to take part in the discussion, and rather issue a warning (?) to me).
d) It also seems that he's had a history of making personal attacks against other co-editors on WP as well and has also been blocked for a 24 and 72-hour periods for such behavior .

Well, I guess I've written quite in a lot of words what could have been conveyed in a few; I hope someone takes notice of the situation and does what might be needful to end this harassment. Thanks for your help. 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 12:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

While I am partial to the dispute in question, I do think the vandalism warning is out of order in what is clearly a content dispute on a BLP. Elazeez, I've placed a note on your talk about this, but one should refrain from off-topic discussion on article talk pages, as it can often impede effective dispute resolution. Agnistus' previous behaviour for which he has been appropriately sanctioned is irrelevant unless there is evidence of further problematic behaviour. That said, I have requested that Agnistus refrain from making accusations of vandalism and that he participate more constructively in the discussion. ITAQALLAH 02:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I think I get your point Itaqallah. What started off as a polite reply to his quoting a SlashDot article (which actually spoke of some issue over depiction of images of Prophet Muhammed pbuh on WP) as a basis of making an accusation of vandalism against me just because I deleted polemic content (belonging to an op-ed from 'The Hindu' which compared Zakir Naik to a terrorist organization) that he had put into Naik's article, seems to have somehow irked him really bad. Maybe thats the reason he thought a personal attack towards me or Islam might put me off editing Naik's article and I'd let go of it. (And that is just my side of the story, if someone may call it so). Well, like I said above, it was he who originally approached me on my talk page(which was the ONLY place I intended to continue the dialogue with him) in an (innocent-sounding?) inquisitory tone saying he wanted to discuss something about Islam; while agreeing to help (personal user pages on Misplaced Pages are probably not the place for it, I realize now) I had no clue he'd go so far and turn it into a round of venting frustrations against Islam instead. His latest post on my talk page reads "I feel pity for you actually, to see you trapped in this cage(you can't leave it, since then you'll be executed!).", which I think just shows his desperation in getting a response to his red herrings on Naik's talk page (amazing co-incidence in his choice of font color as well BTW :-) as well as his non-neutral point of view when it comes to either Islam or Zakir Naik (which might imply that some of his activities may need to be kept an eye on...) ~ 'Abd el 'Azeez (talk) 11:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Jablonski

Jablonski (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - I removed two items from this disambiguation page because they linked to articles that had been deleted for notability reasons. They keep getting re-added by various anonymous IP's, several of which have been blocked immediately thereafter as open proxies. One of these entries is about a computer programmer. Hmm.... I suspect socks. And last night a new anon IP vandalized my user page. So what can be done about this? These "editors" will not respond to my attempts to communicate. I'm bumping up on WP:3RR, so I'm bowing out of the edit war, but I think this page may need semi-protection and these IP's may need to be blocked. At the very least this page needs more eyes patrolling it, as we're either dealing with a sophisticated sock puppeteer or a bunch of meat puppets.

• 163.139.53.90 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - single edit "account", vandalism to my user page.
• 193.146.209.5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - two edit "account", revert of 5th removal (my 3rd revert) and 6th removal by User:Duffbeerforme
• 80.191.160.121 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - single edit "account", revert of 4th removal by User:Caiaffa, now blocked as an open proxy.
• 72.52.220.188 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - two edit "account", both reverts of my 2nd and 3rd removal, now blocked as an open proxy.
• 72.148.164.72 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - four edit "account", revert of my 1st removal, vandalism to Arab, and a self-reverted vandalism to Nuthatch.

Steve Carlson 04:11, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverting vandalism does not fall under 3RR. The additions are in clear violation of the disambiguation page manual of style. swaq 17:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for stepping in and fixing it for a 7th time. My interpretation of WP:VANDAL and WP:3RR is that this behavior is tendentious editing, but assuming good faith, not necessarily vandalism. Am I understanding that wrong? Steve Carlson 17:33, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and semi-protected the article for a few days. Hopefully our IP-hopping friend will get bored and move on to something more productive. --Kralizec! (talk) 17:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I think that will help. I will keep an eye on the article after next week and re-report it here if it continues. Bracing for another personal attack on my user/talk page.... Steve Carlson 17:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. In this case with the obvious block avoidance I find it hard to assume good faith. swaq 17:53, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Now this person has actually created an account, Billthebob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and has started making disruptive edits to other Jablonski-related articles:

• Jablonski diagram
• Jablonski by Pahls v. United States

Steve Carlson 20:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Billthebob (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been blocked, but the assaults on my user page continue via an anon IP 203.162.3.166 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). I think my user page (and preemptively my talk page) needs temporary semi-protection. Steve Carlson 02:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have now semi-protected my user page, so the vandalism there has stopped for the moment, so the focus has returned to anon-IP vandalization of Jablonski diagram (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (now semi-protected) and most recently Wanda Jablonski (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I think all articles linked from Jablonski are potentially at risk. Steve Carlson 04:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

And now more vandalism to Wanda Jablonski (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) by Bobthebill. I waited a long time before doing this one and it was reverted almost immediately. I am beginning to think that there really might be something behind this WikiAIBot thing he was bragging about. Wonder how long it will take this one to come after my user page? Steve Carlson 04:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Libro0 and his attacks

Libro0 has made several personal attacks against me, has abused the suspected sockpuppet system by branding me a sockpuppet because I disagreed with him (see Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Baseball Card Guy) and now has accused me of Wikistalking because I legitimately moved an article about an obscure soccer team from St. Matthew's to St. Matthew's (soccer team), replacing St. Matthew's with a disambiguation page with over two dozen common uses for St. Matthew's. (I should note the only reason I stumbled onto it is because I am keeping track of him making sure he isn't spreading any more lies!) I tried to get him to stop going after another user (and vice versa) and he brands me a sockpuppet. He would not even consider going into mediation with he other user! There seems to be no listening to reason with him. Apparently if you do something that upsets him you are a sockpuppet or worse and he'll make some passive aggressive uncivil comments about you too. This Libro0 is a problem user. Your Radio Enemy (talk) 17:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Can you please provide diffs? Bstone (talk) 18:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The sock puppet report is a bit hard to swallow. While there do appear to be a couple of potential "socks" of Baseball Card Guy (although even then it looks more like he forgot his password or something -- there are only 2-3 uncontroversial edits for each of those accounts), the vast majority of the editors accused appear to just be folks Libro has had disagreements with in the past.

If a CU is available, a quick way to resolve this might be to have one of them take a look at the SSP report. If it comes back the way I think it will, then that would be some damning evidence against Libro (and if I am surprised by the result, it could vindicate Libro and be pretty damning to Your Radio Enemy) --Jaysweet (talk) 18:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Your 'monitoring' of me is what got you into trouble, so why keep getting yourself into more trouble. I left the bballcard pages. Yet this and this showed up. I underwent relentless harrassment here, here, and here. I got to the point I had to get my userpage protected. The sock report shows still more stalking. Jay here seems to think there is a whole slough of people that I have had disagreements with. Hardly. What has transpired at the bbcard pages is that I have been prevented repeatedly from making corrections and adding information. I am the only user there that has chosen to engage in proper discussions. Valid statemnets regarding policy and sources meet with the ususal comments of 'you are being uncivil' and avoiding a clear focus on content. I have been the only one to compromise. As I have said before, any review of my edit history only shows that communication and compromise are solid character traits of mine. Granted I have always dealt with legitimate users that are willing to discuss policy and content in a ratioinal manner. I cannot say this for the accused. I believe it would be better to simply review the edit histories than to provide 500 diffs here. Libro0 (talk) 19:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

On further review, there is definitely merit to the sockpuppet report, although I still wonder if a couple of the users were just caught in the net. We'll see how than pans out when it is reviewed by an admin. --Jaysweet (talk) 11:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I commented at the SSP report. There is clearly socking going on here, but I tend to doubt The Radio Enemy and Die Profis are involved. Maybe I am wrong, though, so hopefully we'll hear more opinions.

One thing I would like to make clear is that even if TRE is a sock and he was stalking you, his change of St. Matthew's to a disambiguation page was absolutely correct. --Jaysweet (talk) 12:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Taekwondo and JJL

A rather difficult situation has been playing out on the Talk:Taekwondo page over recent months, and I'd welcome administrators' comments on how best to proceed:

Context: The Taekwondo article has a history section in which theories concerning the martial art's origin are cited: that taekwondo is of Korean origin, that it's of Japanese origin, and that its origins are a mingling of influences. Edit wars and protracted debates have focused on this section, with the two extreme positions being represented by User:JJL and User:Manacpowers. JJL asserts that taekwondo is essentially Japanese karate and that no reliable sources say otherwise; Manacpowers asserts that taekwondo is Korean, and that sources support that.

Problem: Gaming the system. While neither have comported themselves well, JJL has been particularly disruptive by questioning the appropriateness and reliability of nearly every source that presents the Korean position. This usually takes the form of asserting that the source doesn't meet WP:RS, doesn't satisfy WP:NPOV, that its author is unqualified or biased, or that its inclusion is inappropriate under a host of Misplaced Pages guidelines (WP:UNDUE, WP:SOURCES, WP:NONENG, etc.), sometimes a bit rudely. While raising questions is fine, the volume and intensity of such questions (and the effort required to respond to them) has ground productive editing nearly to halt and to me suggests an effort to game the system.

I, User:Omnedon, User:Nate1481 and other editors have sought compromise and have tried our best to accommodate JJL and to address the points he raises. The position JJL supports is presented neutrally in the page along with the others and is backed by reliable sources, some of which I researched and added myself. However, he won't stop debating and seems to have as his goal the preferred placement of the Japanese view above the opposing "myth". I'm happy to do anything I can to ensure a fair and well-cited presentation, but months of discussion and two attempts at mediation have so far been fruitless, and he seems no closer now to acknowledging opposing theories than when we began.

What is an appropriate step at this point? I welcome any assistance! Thanks, Huwmanbeing ☀★ 14:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid things are now turning a bit hostile, with JJL trying to characterize me as a belligerent. (The latest is in this thread.) Things are certainly spiraling and I'm at a loss to know how to proceed! Thanks, Huwmanbeing ☀★ 20:42, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Help please!?! Official mediation has been tried twice (once stalled, once a party refused to participate) and I am running out of ideas, informal refereeing has been attempted by myself and Huwmanbeing but I have been sucked in to the debate to some extent, we can't get both sides to see use as neutral at the same time, if we say some one might have a point, the response it that we are obviously espousing the POV exclusively. Protection expires on 1st of August and an edit war will happen unless we can get some help. This has previously spilled onto other Korean and Japanese martial arts articles and likely will again. --Nate1481(/_c) 08:43, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I unarchived this because the user came to my talk page looking for help but it's not really my area of expertise, so I'd like some more eyes on it. –xeno (talk) 20:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I have recommended that the major parties take the three sections on the disputed historical origins and split those out into three subpages, one per major origin theory / history viewpoint. This seems like it would allow all three historical viewpoints to be described in more detail in a less confrontational manner than fighting over it on the main Taekwondo page... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 22:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

That is a POV fork and certainly is not a solution. You need to follow the normal dispute resolution process. If negotiation fails you try mediation, if mediation fails, the only other option is ArbCom. Admins really shouldn't start weighing in (in our capacity as admins) in a content dispute. --Selket 22:51, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not a POV content fork - there are competing theories regarding the issue, and there's nothing wrong with separate articles for different theories. Asserting that admins can't informally mediate or suggest options like this is bizarre... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, there were two separate thoughts that I tried to get into that post. I did not do a good job distinguishing them. My apologies for a very confusing post. What I meant was that (1) POV forks are bad and splitting the history of TKD into three articles each on one of the three different, competing theories about the origin is a POV fork. It also doesn't solve the problem because something must still be in the TKD article. Also any dispute about whether sources are reliable will now be spread over four pages rather than one. The other thing (2) that I was trying to say was not in reference to you, Georgewilliamherbert. I just meant that we should not take sides in the content dispute as admins. We should either act as admins and remain neutral in this particular dispute, or take a position but not in our capacity as admins. We should not jump in and say "I'm an admin and this source is reliable", which I feel some posters above may have been requesting. --Selket 23:43, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't WP:Weight tell us to keep the disputed histories together and give them unbiased sections with appropriate weight? If there is a dispute over the history, then it should be on the page with an explanation over the claims. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

We have two key problems, JJL frequently refuses to allow sources that other editors propose stating that the are either not RS or just "they are not as good as mine so mine trump them and so they can not be used" (which sounds suspiciously like the spirit of WP:IDONTLIKEIT). Secondly Manacpowers is just as stubborn in his views and seem to grasp at anything that might support him (e.g quoting the 1st failed mediation) regardless of when others tried to explain he has misunderstood a procces/policy/guideline. Both users have something to contribute, but someone who is actually neutral (and to be honest dose not care or know about the subject) and in an official position (in part to help satisfy Manacpowers 'rules' demands) is needed to help clarify points and, to be honest, act as somthing of a judge on procces/policy/guideline intepritaion. This is why mediation might have helped, but as this had been formally attempted once, Manacpowers felt the issue had been dealt with and he had 'won' (hence demonstrating he had not understood the process). If an uninvolved admin could informally mediate it might prevent the need for the rigmarole of an abcom case, which will not resolve the content dispute (except by default), and may well result in the loss of useful editors. --Nate1481(/_c) 09:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

P.S. One suggestion of a history article (with all the theories) so more detail could be included, has been made, the reaction gives an idea of the problems. --Nate1481(/_c) 09:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, someone in authority who could and would mediate WP:RS issues could be very useful here. I started a mediation process (not all parties joined), started an RfC, went to the RSN...then someone else tried mediation again (not all parties joined). JJL (talk) 13:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I was asked to come and comment on this as I protected the page and so on, but I really don't have a lot that I can do to resolve the situation. I only got to 9th Kup in Taekwando and don't have any real knowledge of the background. Stifle (talk) 17:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

robj1981

why is robj1981 allowed to edit???? he seems to constantly be in trouble with other user. he is not a very nice editor. he is uncivil editor who is always on civility patrol. can you make him go away already. He runis everything he touces and is always getting someone banned when he is really the problem. is this community so blind they can't see thru this stuff? He is always running to ANI telling on people and doesnt even tell people when he does it. very uncivil. he has 28 days left on his ban to serve. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.198.42.104 (talk) 21:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Based on "is always getting someone banned when he is really the problem" I think it safe to assume that the above IP is a block evading sock. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 22:08, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm looking into it a bit more I'm reasonably sure this is either User:SLJCOAAATR 1 or one of his friends meatpuppeting for him. (See his talk page to see what's been going on). I've hardblocked the IP for a week, which is a bit harsh I know but this sillyness needs to stop.Theresa Knott | The otter sank 22:18, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

i have nothig to do with SLJ saying u banning my ip was unjust and rude. i am aware of situation. User:RobJ1981 and User:A Man In Black may very well be meatpuppets of each other. they have both edited 369 different aticles together yet theyve only talked a few times?!?!??!

369 articles in common- noitce they never disagree in AFD

Also look here- amib nominates, rob votes to support in 7 minutes. clikc here alot of fishiness going on here 70.211.199.121 (talk) 13:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Err, Rob wanted to keep the article, while AMIB wanted to chuck it. By the way, I have nearly 300 pages in common with RobJ1981. I also have 364 pages in common with Theresa knott. Does that mean we're meatpuppets? Of course not. I've never even talked to her before. Nishkid64 _{(Make articles, not wikidrama)} 18:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

There's no denyimg it. The IP sock is on to us;-) Theresa Knott | The otter sank 23:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Sock chasing

Been chasing Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Way4743 all day. Is there any recourse for us here besides what I've been doing? Can we find IPs and rangeblock? Tan ǀ 39 21:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Did you try an IP check at Misplaced Pages:RFCU#Requests for IP check? Also, is this just on one article so you could semi-protect for a bit, or is it all over the place? --barneca (talk) 21:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protected the most frequently vandalized article, but it's a bit random. I haven't taken it to RFCU because, well, that page isn't very user-friendly. Maybe I'll give it a shot; it's a bit intimidating. Tan ǀ 39 21:50, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the "request for IP check" part is easier than the "normal" RFCU part; just create a subsection and follow the yellow brick road directions here. --barneca (talk) 22:02, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

I hate when request directions are so damn specific. Can't just link the SSP page, gotta break out all the users with the CU template. Ugh. Tan ǀ 39 22:09, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you don't have to link *every* sock with the CU template... you can list three or four and then link to the SSP page, saying "and numerous others listed here...". Though the more you list on the CU request the better (easier for the CUs to do their job that way). It's not that big a deal - if I have a lot of socks known, I cut and paste a line with the blank CU template and then just fill in the usernames for each line. I can do 20-30 users in a minute with two browser tabs and that setup... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:00, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

If you tell anyone I said this, I'll deny it, but occasionally if I just can't face creating an RFCU report, I've mentioned an SSP case on a checkuser's talk page, instead of filing a report, with mixed results. Depends on the checkuser you choose, their mood, how nicely you ask, and the results of a random number generator.

Hey, tell you what. If you haven't done it already, do you want me to do it? --barneca (talk) 22:13, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Done. I may not be Xeno, but I have my moments. --barneca (talk) 22:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Annoying Elspeth Monro vandal is still vandalizing

I keep coming across this person who likes to use Misplaced Pages as a personal game. They vandalize mainly talk pages and user pages, create socks, then accuse their own socks of being Elspeth Monro (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), before placing a phony indefblock tag on. They also add Elspeth Monro sock templates to the talk pages of already blocked vandals and sockpuppeteers. This is the most recent edit I've noticed, by chance . It's annoying, frustrating, and obnoxious that this person is allowed to just keep vandalizing at will, building up their fake vanity list of blocked socks, etc. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 01:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

If you look briefly through the edit histories of the IPs and socks you'll find stuff like this . Each sock leads to another sock or IPsock as they all put fake templates on each others pages. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 01:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

check this out as well. Thingg 01:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

if this user has alread ybeen indef-blocked, wat more ccan be done??? Has anyone tried issuing a warning? Smith Jones (talk) 01:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I don't think the link posted above by Thingg is the same person I'm mentioning. I could be wrong though. I don't know what issuing warnings will accomplish in the face of blatant socks, both IP and username. What can be done is someone can go through the current raft of socks (and I assure you there are probably hundreds out there by now) and block them and consider blocking the IPs he has used, perhaps even a rangeblock. Perhaps someone with checkuser can help. It's time to deal with this clown. Nobody of Consequence (talk) 06:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

An edit warring IP account

Can someone look into the activities of 66.225.206.182 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). I thought it was one 3RR report but its actually about a half dozen 4RR, 5RR and 6RR reports spread across several articles. The IP has been tagged as a sockpuppet. The user account supposedly attached to this IP has many blocks for edit warring already. Seal Clubber (talk) 03:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Addition. Now User:Johan Rachmaninov has appeared to carry on where the IP noted above left off. This user has also been blocked for 3RR violations. Either the original sock tag was added to the IP or the 2 user accounts with the block history for 3RR violation are the same editor. Seal Clubber (talk) 03:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The correct place to report this is that way → Tiptoety 03:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Jrmscpeople

This user has an apparent history of creating nonsense pages and hoaxes, most recently here: Jezreel V., a page that has already been speedied twice, once as vandalism. Continuously removes speedy delete tags despite being asked not to. Has been blocked for similar behavior in the past. --UsaSatsui (talk) 03:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I know this user, largely because one of the previous incarnations of the article (Jezreel Veradio) was speedied by myself repeatedly until I was forced to protect it from recreation and block the editor. Even earlier it was deleted at Jezreel H. Veradio by another two admins for nonsense/vandalism/hoax.

From what I have gathered the creator is this Jezreel Veradio who has decided to create a false identity on[REDACTED] (considering the biographical details change wildly from creation to creation). It is quite possible Veradio is an actor in some regard, but the sheer number of obviously false additions (i.e. claims to being cast in Blindness (film)) means it's impossible to possibly find any semblance of fact from the fiction.

This article will probably be deleted as well, considering that all evidence supports its removal (along with the same Jezreel (actor) article) and while this user may have made useful contributons in the past, "may" due to that it's impossible to tell what is valid from this editor, that for the good of the project an indef blocking is probably in order. –– Lid 04:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• May want to check the actions of this IP as well. --UsaSatsui (talk) 04:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Canton and Colbert

Apparently, our friend Stephen Colbert has instructed his minionsviewers to vandalize pages about towns named Canton. I have most of them open in tabs, but I would appreciate some eyes since I will have to go to sleep in a little bit. J.delanoy_adds 04:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Okey dokey. Tiptoety 04:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be pretty sleepy. seicer | talk | contribs 04:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

He didn't actually instruct them. He called Canton, Georgia "crappy" and that made the mayor mad. So he apologized and than started ranting about Canton, Kansas calling it "shitty". Misplaced Pages was not mentioned once. -CWY2190(talk • contributions) 04:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, sorry. I don't actually watch the show, but I know about how he is with us so I guess I just jumped to conclusions. I'll try not to panic like this in the future. J.delanoy_adds 04:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

And I take it none of those predictions about articles to be vandalized, supposedly based on "inside" information, actually panned out? Baseball Bugs 04:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Might want to archive this thread before some reader actually does vandalize these pages. — CharlotteWebb 15:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Gwen Gale

• Radioinfoguy has been blocked indef for sockpuppetry, all confirmed alternate accounts have also been blocked indef, see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/Radioinfoguy and Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Radioinfoguy.

Read the story how Gwen Gale has, in my opinion, several times, abused her administrative power here. If you don't see my reasons for this post, then the AfD page has been deleted, or blanked. Check it's history. If the page is blanked, or deleted and restarted, I respectfully ask an admin to restore my comments to the AfD page, as I feel the history, leading up to my nomination for deletion, is important. Thank you.

If I have made a mistake in the way I have nominated Joe Kleon for deletion, please correct it and leave my comments intact. Radioinfoguy (talk) 04:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Just at a glance, it seems that Gwen has bent over backwards to try and help you get this article up and running, even admitting that it might not be completely notable, but she has a soft spot for broadcasters and would try and help it stay on the wiki. You trying to delete it now seems to be disrupting[REDACTED] to make a point, in all honesty. Dayewalker (talk) 04:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have deleted the AfD as a pointy poor faith nom that was entirely a criticism of Gwen, with no reason given to delete. I don't see at all how Gwen has abused her admin tools here. Time to drop it and move on perhaps. Kevin (talk) 05:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Question - the previous AfD speedily deleted. What were the claims in this AfD, as per I not being able to read? It would be helpful to find on what grounds people responded (beyond the closing). Ottava Rima (talk) 05:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The were no contributors except the nom and Hoary fixing the formatting. The whole thing was a long rant about Gwen mostly, but comments such as Clearly this article passes the Misplaced Pages notability test, and Such non-notable people such as a number one rated radio personality with over 20 years experience, heard at one time on CNN worldwide radio, heard collectively, as a network radio announcer, in over 40 states, published as a writer in a weekly magazine with 60,000+ circulation, for 7 years, someone who has recorded and interviewed over 100 very notable rock musicians, someone who has had their photography repeatedly published, for years, in large daily newspapers and magazines, is clearly not notable. (took this as sarcasm) showed that the nom was not a good faith request for deletion. Kevin (talk) 06:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with much of what you say in the the AfD, I disagree with your placing it within an AfD, and for good measure I disagree with the deletion of the AfD as well (particularly after I'd wasted several minutes of my life formatting it properly). Anyway, your main beef is with Gwen Gale. My view on this is close to Dayewalker's, but it's possible that we're both wrong and you are right. If you're serious about this, there are various avenues that are open to you. However, I suggest that you first state your point about the article (not her) as dispassionately, impersonally and persuasively as you can at Talk:Joe Kleon. -- Hoary (talk) 05:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Much of what was said was wrong. Joe misrepresented what Gwen had said and done. He claimed meanings that were not there. He critisised her for properly following procedure. Gwen did not create the article because she thought Joe Kleon was notable but to try and help him create an article free of the coi problems that existed in the first version. An act of kindness that he responds to like this. Duffbeerforme (talk) 10:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Submitter, you really should have notified Gwen of this thread. She has a right to present her side of the story. I've done it for you as I don't see a notice on her talk page. — Rlevse • Talk • 09:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

As I recall, I spent at least half a day researching this person and rewriting his article from scratch so it would be encyclopedic (admins can see what the deleted version was like). Seven weeks later User:Clevelandmusic24 (likely an alternate account of not named by me for BLP reasons User:Radioinfoguy) added this section about Kleon's non-notable photography and this brought back the old, highly critical attention from other editors. Then User:Clevelandmusic24 showed up on my talk page. Now, after filing that pointy AfD which was deleted straight off by another admin, he's shown up here as User:Radioinfoguy. I tried to help, I guess editors may understand why I don't want to anymore and am not too thrilled about having done to begin with. Whatever y'all want to do about these accounts and this article is ok by me. Gwen Gale (talk) 10:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I did notify Gwen of this thread. If you took 2 seconds to look at her talk page, you would see that. Not the brightest bulb, are you? Radioinfoguy (talk) 10:54, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps not. And I'm not, either. I spent few seconds looking on the talk page, and another few looking in your list of contributions, and I didn't see it. You notified her of the AfD, but as far as I can see, you didn't notify her of this. -- Hoary (talk) 11:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, Radioinfoguy also claims that he wanted the AfD deleted as well. seicer | talk | contribs 11:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

By "it" he means the article, not the AfD, which Kevin deleted as pointy. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it just me or is Radioinfoguy (talk · contribs) singularily unpleasant? Unfounded and personal attacks a-go-go on Gwen on this page, plus this bit of nastiness and this one plus the strange "delete this article or add my choice of self-aggrandisement to it" stroppy demands. I'm feeling inclined to get rid of him permanently. Any objections? ➨ Ʀƹɗѵєɾϧ collects very sharp bread knives 11:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, from me.

He's angry. Yes, there's no reason to agree to his every whim, but there's also no reason to taunt him. He hasn't vandalized anything. Cut him some slack and aim to decrease tensions rather than increase them. -- Hoary (talk) 12:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

While he might not have vandalized anything he hardly seems to be a constructive editor. More importantly, he is disrupting the project.--Ave Caesar (talk) 12:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Better to let it blow over rather than inflame things more. Kevin (talk) 12:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

No need to block just yet. This POINTy vendetta against Gwen is disappointing, irritating, and baffling; but the user otherwise appears to be contributing in good faith (and continued to do so in other areas even during this incident). If he doesn't back off of this one pretty soon, a short clueblock might be in order, but I don't see any need to get rid of him permanently. --Jaysweet (talk) 12:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Nominating an article for deletion (solely to prove that it shouldn't be deleted) is a mind-boggling abuse of process, though strangely I've seen it done before. If he can heed a stern warning not to engage in such stunts in the future, I see no reason for Joe not to continue editing, though it wouldn't be unreasonable for us to ask him to comment on the talk page from now on rather than editing the article directly. — CharlotteWebb 14:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is what I asked him to do a month and a half ago. Gwen Gale (talk) 15:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Look, I talked to Joe and neither of us want to have a war, or get involved with crap like this. It just seems that a few people have it in for him and are not allowing things that are acceptable in other articles. The double standard is baffling.

I can understand being angry when someone asks for answers and gets none and asks for citing of Wiki poplicy as to why sources are not notable and gets no answer. Why is it so hard to address these points? Gwen has removed sources from large metropolitan newspapers and says they are only "online pictures." They are newspapers like Toledo Blade, Canton Repository, Alliance Review and magazines like Classic Rock Magazine. Read their wiki pages and tell me if they are only online pictures. Please explain why these sources do not show at least some notability as a photographer. They all have wide circulation and meet the criteria for Wiki sources.

Go back and look at the photography section, that was removed. Are the Sport Karate Magazine scans any different from the Scene Magazine scan Gwen added herself at the beginning of the article? Nope. However, to her that one is fine and the ones I added are not. Why was it wrong to follow her example? When I asked for an explaination, she gave none. Make sense? Sounds like a double standard to me. Wouldn't showing notability as a photographer entail having your photos published repeatedly in widely circulated magazines and newspapers and used by notable musicians in their music releases? Hoary hinted that a book needs to be published and reviewed to be notable, as a photographer. Can I see a cite of Wiki policy about this? The photography section, to me, only adds to the overall notability of the subject. He has earned citing and been published in various acceptable sources, from various aspects of his career (radio, recording, photography). There are so many articles that don't have a half the sources. Why is this article such a problem?

Hoary also said in the original AfD that anyone can edit the article, including radioinfoguy. When that happened and I added a few lines about his photography, tags are put up and Gwen threatens to AfD her article. Seems pretty consusing to me. The photo edits I did were very neutral and factual. If they were not, why not clean them up and offer suggestions to help? Isn't that what is supposed to be done? I thought this article may be allowed to grow and develop, asWikipedia says is their goal, for new articles, but it seems that this will not happen, with this article. The photography section, combined with the article that Gwen wrote, proves notability, without a doubt, according to Wiki guidelines.

One more thing. Since Gwen removed the photography section, why does she insist in keeping the COI tag? The article, as it sits right now, is only her work. I do not understand this.

I respectfully ask for answers to these questions, with citing of Wiki policy. Thanks. 16:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~). The COI and notability tags were added by another editor. I think they should stay until you stop trying to use the article for self-promotion. The topic Joe Kleon fails WP:BIO. However, you have some borderline notability as a recording engineer and former local DJ in northern Ohio. As for the local Scene magazine scan (which is on your personal website), I told you weeks ago that I had stretched the sources somewhat in trying to make the article whole and encyclopedic for you. Truth be told, the scan indeed doesn't belong as a source in the article at all, I only threw it in because it filled things out a bit, I was struggling to support any notability at all for you as a music journalist and I thought it would at least show some evidence you've done locally published music journalism (which in itself is not notable) and hoped someone might have fun reading it. Online copies of your photos are not sources and whatever you have done as a radio and recording person does not shed notability on your photography. Taking snaps of famous or noted folks is not in itself notable, even if the photographs are later published in local newspapers or used in marketing/packaging materials for independent music releases. To show notability as a photographer, one would need to provide citations showing significant coverage (which is to say discussion) of your photography by independent and reliable sources, or meaningful awards, or exhibitions. I didn't find any when I researched you a month and a half ago and I didn't find any today. I think you either don't understand Misplaced Pages's notability, sourcing, consensus, discussion, alternate account, civility and disruption policies, among others, or don't want to abide by them, though maybe it's a bit of both. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ottava Rima - block required

Blocked for 8 days. Nandesuka (talk) 10:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ottava Rima (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This editor has continually made accusation after accusation; each meritless in their own way, and demands everyone retracts their statements or strikes them when he is the only user who disagrees. He filed a WQA against S Dean Jameson - no editor or admin felt it warranted any action or warnings whatsoever because it was meritless. He disagreed and it remained open for sometime. I closed the WQA with a similar view . He refuses to let the issue go, as can be seen at the bottom of my talk page, and has declared () that Risker is abusing authority because of commenting on the situation at my talk page and asking him to stop being disruptive. It is very clear to me that this editor has no intention of letting it go and will continue to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground. His block log speaks for itself. I request he be blocked for no less than 6 months. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any diffs here. I'm pretty sure this request won't go anywhere without some of those to show the alleged misbehaviour. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm adding them - but his last 20ish contributions contain the bulk of it. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, meritless accusations below by Ottava Rima. This is probably the first occasion I've interacted with S Dean Jameson, and here he is claiming bias at every single editor and admin who has tried to deal with the WQA, including myself, who closed it as a complete third party. His behaviour continues to be blatantly disruptive - Misplaced Pages is not a battleground, and the only defending i'm doing is by invoking the DefendEachOther meatball for his inappropriate conduct re: Risker. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I asked the user to retract his closing of a wikiquette request here with the comments "Filing party (Ottava Rima) does not agree with third party input" and "I find that the claims made here are meritless, so I'm of the opinion that it be dismissed. As the filing party has so far not agreed at all with the similar opinions expressed here, I'm closing this as stuck". The reason why can be found here. I believe that the user made false allegations about my feelings on the matter, did not actually read the discussion, and allowed his previous relationship with User:S. Dean Jameson to conflict with his ability to be unbiased in the situation. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Also- "It is very clear to me that this editor has no intention of letting it go" As you can see from 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, et al, I have repeatedly attempted to "let the matter go" but the person Ncmvocalist is defending refuses to. The user he is defended, i.e. Jameson, even criticized a user here for giving me a barnstar for my constant asking for people to stop using personal attacks in disputes. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

(with ECx2)Crap. I hate finding myself on the same side as NCMVocalist, who I'd rather have nothing to do with. However, OR's behavior as regards all things Wilhelmina Will has been questionable; in fact, I pointed this out in the thread about WW that was just here on AN/I, and suggested that OR needed some time away from things. I'm not sure 6 months is right, but given that following the WW debacle, OR ran right to swinging wildly to see who s/he could take down in revenge or anger, I'd certainly support a one or two week block to ensure that OR returns to the project with a level head and no more interest in these sort of tit-for-tat antics. Let's prevent more needless drama.

Further, as seen post-EC, OR's insistence that s/he is right absolutely is more than mildly irritating, and this isn't the first time i've seen her throw that attitude around. It's disruptive in and of itself; every time OR sees a response that doesn't agree, the saem talking points and self-righteous indignation appear. everyone's a biased involved party, of course by nature of getting involved in the previous thread as uninvolved folks, and soon we'll run out of such 'uninvolved folks'. Block to prevent gaming as well.ThuranX (talk) 05:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

What am I "right" about? That I believe there is a problem between Jameson and I? And that I sought help via Wikiquette? Otherwise, how is your comment on topic? I am sure you will try to say this is me further trying to be "right" because you established a logical loop that would critique any response as such. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say you were right about anything, I said you 'insist that you are right'. there's a difference. 2+2=5, and I insist that's true! doesn't make it true, but I'm insisting I'm right. Similarly, you continue to insist in multiple venues that you're right about whatever the topic is, no matter how much else is said by however many others. Look at that WQA, or the WW thread above. lots of people say A, you say 17, and insist that it's always been and will always be 17, no matter how many people say A. ThuranX (talk) 05:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Question, are you saying that I would not understand my complaint and why I filed it better than others reading it? It seems to be what you just stated. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment redacted Ottava Rima (talk) 05:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

In no fucking way am I an associate of his, beyond noting him in an AN/I thread and commenting there, and possibly in the related articles. This is the gaming the system that I'm talking about. EVERYONE who ever talks to each other is an associate, thus exploitable by OR to avoid the spotlight on her behavior. ThuranX (talk) 05:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thuran, I suggest cooling down a bit. This discussion is getting a little heated.<3 Tinkleheimer TALK!! 05:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have redacted the above comment in order to further that end. Ottava Rima (talk) 05:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

A glance through ThuranX's edit history shows he's in a different universe. But I see nothing that would prevent an association, other than the fact we're both here to edit an encyclopedia, and it appears we don't edit any articles in common. --Blechnic (talk) 05:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Blechnic, I have already redacted the line. Ottava Rima (talk) 06:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I too find myself in the unusual situation of agreeing with Ncmvocalist's actions on the Wikiquette thread. Ottava Rima complained on Ncmvocalist's talk page that he did not have the authority to close the thread because he was not an administrator, so I piped in and said that, as an administrator, I agreed with the close, and asked OR to stop as his behaviour was becoming disruptive. In response, Ottava Rima tried to bully me by implying that I was acting improperly, threatening to start a thread here about my "inappropriate" actions and hinting that admins have been desysopped for such behaviour. It seems that welcoming other editors onto my talk page, and having them ask me to comment on articles, somehow renders me biased in favour of such editors in Ottava Rima's mind. Unfortunately for some who have visited my page, that is not the case at all.

Ottava Rima has some skill at editing and has proven helpful on some articles, but has also been involved in multiple tendentious situations. I would like to hear from some of the people who have found his editing to have been helpful (or some who have benefited from his "mediation work" that he referred to in his post to my talk page) before considering any type of sanction other than to simply say "cool off". Risker (talk) 05:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Please provide the diff and quotation where I said that his closing was improper because he was not an admin. I wrote the section, I've reread the section, and I am unable to find it. Also, there was "cooling off" as per User:Fritzpoll, where I stopped posting responses to Jameson, but I can show where he refused to do the same, and his associates attacked my character in Wikiquette. Ottava Rima (talk) 06:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Two consecutive posts by you, the first demanding to know if Ncmvocalist was an admin, the second insisting that he remove the closure of the Wikiquette thread or "if needed be, I will apply for an admin to remove your close". Are we done here? Risker (talk) 06:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Two different points. I hope that clarifies things. Also - stating that I would apply for an admin would mean to go to AN or AN/I, asking for an admin to act, as if I were to act, that would be edit warring. Knowing if he was an admin or not would be important to prevent possible Wheel Warring. Ottava Rima (talk) 06:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Reading through this and the related threads, I strongly suggest that you learn to stop spitting in the soup. Guy (Help!) 09:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ottava Rima's block log reads like a seven-month long train wreck. Their most recent unblock was on June 23rd, and ironically reads "User has committed themselves to collegial and non-tendentious editing - ergo block is no longer needed". On the basis of the interactions here and elsewhere, Ottava Rima's commitment doesn't seem to have stuck, because this whole interaction has been less than collegial and tendentious. I am therefore blocking Ottava for 8 days, or twice 96 hours. Nandesuka (talk) 10:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• I've been involved in two lengthy arguments with this user, the aforementioned WW thread and the one above under "Raul's reply". I must admit, that it can be rather frustrating to debate with this individual especially when they say things like: Therefore, you have no argument and your complaint is moot. Please strike accordingly. Thanks. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC). Support block and agree with Guy's assessment. –xeno (talk) 12:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Per xeno. A special thanks to Nandesuka for being bold and tackling the issue for what it was, and preventing damage for now. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ottava Rima has suggested that his unblock request is just an attempt to get attention rather than to get unblocked (deliberate disruption, it seems). Frankly, I think he's been much luckier than other editors in terms of the circumstances leading to his blocks - in the past 3 months alone, on multiple occasions, he was counselled by several users about his poor conduct. It doesn't seem to be sinking in, even now. All avenues of trying to get him to understand (& stop) have been exhausted (except through mentoring, if anyone is willing and able to handle it). In the absence of any such agreement, assurance or understanding by Ottava Rima (prior to the current block expiring), then I note that serious consideration needs to be given to deferring to Moreschi's initial indef-block. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Note: after seeing my above comment, he has made the following edit(s).

• (This will be my only comment on this situation.) I completely agree with Vocalist here. I expended a lot of "WikiEnergy" defending myself against Rima's baseless accusations the past two days, and it appears many other editors have been treated similarly over the course of Rima's time on the project. I think an indef-block, until that time when Rima will commit to stopping this type of behavior, is wholly appropriate. S. Dean Jameson 15:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Community patience exhausted; proposal of infinite block

Er... S. Dean Jameson, OR did commit to stopping this type of behavior at their latest block, you know. I think he's used up all his chances and all our good faith and all our patience, and I suggest an infinite block. Yes, infinite, not indefinite. Indefinite was last time, and he quickly reneged on it. We've surely expended enough wiki-energy on this user. Also, note that not even "infinite" is the end of the road; the possibility of eventually appealing to ArbCom will remain, provided there's no socking.
I've removed the "resolved" template and propose that the user be temporarily unblocked to take part in the discussion of an infinite block. (To edit this thread only, not talkpages etc; enough with the talkpage attacks already.) For background, see these ANI threads:

20 June:

23 April, 2008, "Repeated extreme incivility by User:Ottava Rima:

21 April, 2008:

21 March, 2008, "User:Ottava Rima mass-editing articles without consensus":

See also many a talkpage, recently, User talk:Ncmvocalist, a good example of OR's standard manner of communication with other editors: .

Bishonen | talk 16:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC).

The only reason I oppose this right now is that OR doesn't seem to grasp the wrongdoing for which he/she is blocked. If we Indef Ban now, I have every confidence this user will return as a SOCK, and will continue socking. The user is too committed to 'the truth', currently, As such, mentoring offers far more hope that we can get OR to 'get it', and at least understand WHY an indef ban is being proposed. If OR rejects or fails to seriously engage in a mentoring process, then we've truly exhausted all options, OR can appeal to ArbCom, and then the indef ban can set in. ThuranX (talk) 16:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• I was looking for evidence that OR has been prepared to acknowledge the valid concerns raised numerous times over the weeks, but can't see any; feel free to point out any I missed. All I see here is a troublesome user who is taking more time to keep in line than can be justified from the benefit of their contributions, I'm afraid. Guy (Help!) 17:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
• I strongly support this. Not only does Rima not acknowledge any wrong-doing, but there seems to be a martyr-complex thing going on. Rima composed a "poem" about this, and has been soapboxing about how s/he's been wronged. It's apparent to me (in reply to ThuranX above) that OR will never "get" why what he does is wrong. Extending the community's good will any further in dealing with this "bad actor" is not necessary in my view. S. Dean Jameson 17:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
• There is a fear that OR may disrupt Misplaced Pages whatever course of action is taken. Which then is the lesser of two evils? The choice seems to be between further (arguably good faith/unintentional) disruption of the type documented ad nauseam in the AN/I archives, and presumed new intentional/bad faith disruption such as sockpuppetry. To me, it seems like a logical error for the community to choose not to ban OR based on a bad faith view of them. Perhaps a ban accompanied by friendly advice and counselling about where OR went wrong? I'm not sure who, if anyone, would be qualified to offer that, but it does leave the door open for future positive contributions. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 17:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• No, he shouldn't be unblocked. We can have a discussion transcluded between pages if necessary, though. Frankly, I think the following alternative remedy would be worth considering, and I doubt it is something that would be too different to an ArbCom remedy either.
  • Ottava Rima (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is banned from Misplaced Pages for a period of one year. Should Ottava Rima resume editing Misplaced Pages after this period, he shall be assigned a volunteer mentor, who will be asked to assist Ottava Rima in understanding and following policy and community practice to a sufficient level that continued sanctions will not be necessary.
• Thoughts? Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

thought: It's ridiculous that all of this (recent stuff) got started because OR decided to stick up for WW, who just got the book thrown at her. If OR had reread what had been said about WW, all of this could have been avoided. I notice that Kim Bruning is talkign to OR on OR's talk page. SHould we see if that can yield a change in behavior? ThuranX (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• For the record, Kim asked OR, "What was it this time?" OR responded with more obfuscation, denial, and blame. I'm not arguing with you, ThuranX, but just pointing out how this current "interaction" seems to be simply more of the same. S. Dean Jameson 17:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I saw, And i think we all know how this will turn out, but in the interest of avoiding more sockmaters, I made the suggestion. ThuranX (talk) 18:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support for the "infinite" ban. This is not for "incivility" in the usual sense, because I oppose the usual sense, but for threatening, hostile, and really quite schizophrenic lability. It's hostile to hateful to loving to hostile to complimentary to hostile, and lots and lots of pretense. It's impossible to edit with or near such a user, and the user himself is intent on gathering attention. This is poisonous. Geogre (talk) 19:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
• Please see here for further tendentiousness. Rima acts as if Fritzpoll somehow concured with him, when in fact, he did not. In fact, when Fritzpoll initially questioned Rima's reasoining in bringing the WQA, Rima accused Fritz of being "involved" and unable to judge fairly what was going on. This is a habitual problem, and there is no remorse at all for the crap he put me (and Blechnic, among others) through the last two days. S. Dean Jameson 19:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Support Enough is enough. Chillum 19:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• I'd like to see some clarity whether we are being asked to consider an indef block or a community ban? I agree with ThuranX's concerns about sock-puppetry but I would not consider that to mitigate the problems caused by Ottava Rima rather the opposite. And I second SheffieldSteel's remarks that a ban accompanied by an explanation might be constructive. The fact that I can't find any diffs indicating that Ottava Rima understands why their behaviour is problematic does not help their case (if I missed that please point it out). For the moment I am leaning towards supporting a community ban--Cailil 19:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Uh? In practice it's the same thing. A community ban is decided in and by such a discussion as the one we're having here. If the discussion leads to consensus for a ban (which is beginning to look likely), somebody will indefblock the user. Any admin can put the ban into practice by blocking OR. Me, for instance, since I made the proposal. Is that clear now, or what exactly is the question? Bishonen | talk 19:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC).
    • I do catch your drift Bishonen and I'm aware of the difference and similarity of indefinite blocks and community bans. However I think it would be somewhat clearer to say "community ban" rather than "infinite block". The issue for me is that with a block there is an implied possibility of unblocking, however if we are discussing a community ban we are seeking consensus for both an indef block and for a resolution not to unblock. Especially in case that Ottava Rima appeals this process it would good if we were all crystal clear about what we are implementing. I'm nit-picking and I know know it - but I'd prefer to have all our ducks in a row. Also having considered the evidence further I do support a community ban of Ottava Rima--Cailil 20:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
• Comment. I find Ottava to be a largely constructive editor: Samuel Johnson, which he largely wrote, is only days away from FAC, imo. He is able to collaborate, but in urgent need of socialization into our community norms. I think an outright ban would be self defeating to the project; maybe a probation period during which he is mentored and resticted from posting in cetrain formus and name spaces. Mentoring I'd be prepared to take on myself; although I have no experience in this area, I do get on with Ottava. ( Ceoil 20:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

  (ecx500000)For the record, no one "baited" him in this last episode. (And from the research I've since done into his background, he has rarely been "baited" in the past.) This was written before you refactored out your "baited" claim. He simply started firing baseless accusations of "personal attacks" around, with little regard to the veracity of the claims. And his block log (and recent comments) show a recalcitrance that does not lend itself to the belief that there is any hope that he will forgo this type of behavior in the future. S. Dean Jameson 20:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

No Dean sorry; I wasn't being specific about baiting there; that was just a general observation / musing. ( Ceoil 20:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Striking, per your above. Probably still a bit flustered from spending quite awhile defending myself against the baseless accusations. S. Dean Jameson 20:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Understandable on ANI! Look, I'm not denying or confirming or holding any paticular openion on anything above or on either of ye in this; I'm just saying restrictions and mentoring in Ottava's case are worth a try from my experience of him. ( Ceoil 20:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ceoil, this is what I was talking about: lability. He can be fawning, then impossible. "His" is a lot, even though very little of it is. Samuel Johnson is "his?" Why does that make me fear for the article? Is it all Jackson Bate? When OR has insisted most loudly on being expert, he has been novice. His knowledge is limited, his ability to take correction zero, his ability to tolerate edits, nil. I don't know anything about the reality of the person operating the account, but it seems like a "first year," but one with a hideous personality. The inability to recognize, much less respect, other people and their skills, the intolerance of being in error, the histrionic response to being over-ruled, these are the issues that matter in determining fitness for a cooperative editing project like Misplaced Pages. Regurgitating Irvin Ehrenpreis and calling it Swift or tossing out Bate and calling it Johnson is something his professors will teach him not to do, but neither is going to balance out the poor writing, the bad syntax, and the personality. Geogre (talk) 21:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes well, <ahem> I have my own openions about Ottava; which I'm prepared to share with him in private, but not on a public noticeboard ;) Swift and Johnson are outside my area so I wouldn't be able to spot OR there, and for sure I see that in disputes he's well, y'know. But so sanction him, take him out of areas where he most comes into dispute (FAC usually), and restrict him to colleborative efforts at adding content. Put him on strict civility patrol /1RR for a year, ban him from FAC/FAR etc for 6 months, article talk for 3, 9for example) strict mentorship; and if that doesn't work; pah, throw away the key. Dunno, I had hoped earlier (a few weeks ago only), to work with him on pages I would have a stronger grip and more familiarality on the sources (romantic poets), and would be able to reason with him from a more informed pedestal. That I might not get the chance is dissapointing. ( Ceoil 21:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, to be clear, I was not commenting on the person. I don't know the person. I was commenting on the behavior. The behavior is what I have seen (and what I once did) as a first year: you find a textbook account, and you charge in telling the world that this is it. Very, very soon, humility or humiliation will teach you to back off, to look for nuance. I wouldn't just clip Leslie Marchand for Byron; that's something a mug or a fool would do. Marchand has his position, but he's been superseded and augmented and was never sufficient to begin with. What I have seen is a consistent jumping up and claiming ownership of all knowledge on a field based on a single book. It's textbook "fool" behavior (a fool is not stupid; he is unwise). But what makes it a matter of AN/I and people wanting bans is the reaction to any word. I have seen no nuance, just extremes, and that kind of brittle zooming about just makes other people want to stay clear. That's the opposite of collaborative editing. Geogre (talk) 21:53, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

If we indef blocked (or banned) every editor matching the description Geogre gives, we'd lose a lot of editors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Euf sorry Geogre; if only I had the gift of the gab and not the ability to put my foot in it. Sorry, didn't mean to imply; just was having a sly dig at the fact that my own openions are rarely fit for public consumption. I'm just going to leave this settle, my offer is simple, either people think its a good idea or not. ( Ceoil 22:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

4 and a half admins supporting a community ban.... If Guy confirms his support, then that makes 5. Any admin who does not? Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Just throwing it out there, what about a topic ban from Misplaced Pages: namespace? –xeno (talk) 21:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

  Much of Rima's damage was done on talkpage's as well. I'm not sure how effective a straight namespace ban would be. S. Dean Jameson 21:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Add my name to "support indef" if you're counting heads. I fail to see how "but they'll make illegal socks and continue because they are dense regarding what Misplaced Pages is Not" is an argument against a block or ban. KillerChihuahua 21:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

No, were only counting admins; see above. Ncmvocalist I find your "4 and a half admins supporting a community ban" comment highly offensive. And your cry to Guy to be the last word beyond the pale. Shame, it seems you prefer a head to a solution. ( Ceoil 21:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Struck cmt; expalined below. ( Ceoil 00:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a shame you don't assume good faith. I suggested a ban and mentoring - not just a ban like above. Strawpolls do not determine consensus - they're just one measure. I called Guy's comment half-a-vote because his reasoning seems to support the ban, but it does not explicitly state 'Support'. If he confirms, then (obviously) it's a full vote. That's why I asked if there is any admin who does not support it. You're reading too much into it; so much so, that you're way off base. Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ceoil: I'm not sure I understand what you are saying - pls clarify? KillerChihuahua 22:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

"4 and a half admins supporting a community ban.... If Guy confirms his support, then that makes 5. Any admin who does not?" - If thats not stawpolling, then I wonder what is not. ( Ceoil 22:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure its strawpolling. What are you saying about it, please? KillerChihuahua 22:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'm an admin and I'm against the ban ( see below ). What does that signify in these terms, exactly? Fritzpoll (talk) 22:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Right. I took offence because I found the remark "Any admin who does not" to be exclusionist agianst us non admins. Maybe a bit over sensitive, but not the best phrased headcount I've seen so far. It came accross as if I was being talked over. ( Ceoil 22:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree - I genuinely don't see the significance of admins' opinions in a community centred discussion, and I say that as one of "them". Fritzpoll (talk) 22:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ahhh. Well, I'm not sure its still on the policy, but at one point at least a community ban was when "no admin is willing to unblock" - so any admin objecting would mean not a community ban. No offense was intended, I am sure. Head-counting the supporting admins has often been used to guage whether enough admins have looked at the situation - 5 is not enough, certainly, for this issue. KillerChihuahua 22:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok Chihuahua, I'm not a frequent visitor here. ( Ceoil 22:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Opppose, sorry, but I concur with Ceoil, and since he has offered to mentor, I think that is a good option. Ottava Rima brought Samuel Johnson to FAC-ready status with about one weeks' work; he clearly can be a productive editor. Further, the way this thread and issue has been conducted is reminiscent of the issues that led to the shutdown of WP:CSN: I see a bit too much of a hurry to indef block an editor who has done good work, and I'm concerned that WQA can't be effectively used as it is intended to be used because threads are being closed and archived. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

  Sandy, I'd encourage you to look more deeply into the baseless accusations Rima was throwing around against first Blechnic, then me. Distracting at best, disruptive at worst. There's no acknowledgement of error from him, no remorse for the distraction he caused, and he's still blaming me for the whole thing. He's a good editor, but is that enough to make up for the disruption he caused (and has caused in the past)? I say no. You disagree? S. Dean Jameson 21:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

  What I see is that someone has offered to mentor him, which makes the issue of an indef block look like a lynching that will end up at ArbCom. In the meantime, Samuel Johnson stands as a testament to OR's work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

  PS This is what Johnson looked like before Ottava Rima started working on it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:26, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

  There are people one knows just enough to make a hash of, and there are people one knows well enough to know not to try it. I won't edit the Pope page or the Johnson page, because I know how fast-moving they are. It takes a certain amount of hubris or actually supreme work (not the kind done in a week, I assure you) to write a fair job on either author. What's easy is to follow one of the standby authors, to act as a clipping service. What's hard is to be accurate, complete, and concise. I have no problem with an overly bold person rushing forward and making a stew of things, but I wouldn't praise them for it. Geogre (talk) 21:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - I understand the feelings of some of those here arguing for a community ban, but it is not in the interest of the project to ban this editor at this time. It is true that OR is excessively forceful in their opinion, and this certainly has to change. As far as I am aware, however, and certainly in relation to recent events, no lasting damage has been caused by this user. At worst, some users have had their time wasted (and this could have been avoided in some cases by not rising to the comments) and whilst this is in itself disruptive, OR is not merely a timewaster, but someone has done good work and who seems to be genuinely defend the project's principles, albeit in a misguided manner. The best thing we can do as a community is make out displeasure known (as we have) and attempt to mentor OR back into the fold. Banning should be a final step, not our first resort. Fritzpoll (talk) 21:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

  I'm sorry; first resort? That is almost amusing. Various people have spent a great many hours, and there have been multiple warnings and blocks. Kim Bruning tried mentoring a bit, as did others to different extents. This is hardly the "first resort". KillerChihuahua 22:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

  Well, perhaps "first resort" was the incorrect term. However, the meaning of my post should be clear - I think there is room for one more chance from the community. Fritzpoll (talk) 22:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I think "do not respond" is a good choice of behavior with User:Ottava Rima. I learned that on my talk page. I have watched over and over as editors have fed into his/her responses. It is not necessary to do this. Responding gives some editors a feeling of unresonable power. —Mattisse (Talk) 22:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well said Mattisse, though sometimes very hard to do! ( Ceoil 22:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Editors are now responding over and over on his/her talk page. This will just make the situation worse, in my opinion. I think the best way to go about this is to let the eight days pass in peace. After eight days, User:Ottava Rima will have had time to think. Not, however, if there is a constant interchange of emails and talk page posts that are stirring the pot. —Mattisse (Talk) 22:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Plus, it's getting embarrassing and setting my teeth on edge. Please don't rise, keep it on ANI. Bishonen | talk 23:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC).

• Oppose. I have had my share of run-ins with Ottava Rima; at times I have felt driven to distraction, I admit. He/she often takes up positions that are best described as "odd," and defends them with stubborn tenacity. I can quite understand where people are coming from when they ask for a block. But sometimes, in my view, he or she is right. And an "infinite" block seems to me to be way over the top. Ottava Rima can collaborate productively with other editors. It is true that he/she often falls off the wagon but there has to be a more refined measure (topic bans, 1RR, mentoring, whatever) than the crude use of this ultimate sanction. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 22:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose if the editor will simply admit that he or she made some mistakes with his or her attitude, and that he or she will try to do better in the future. Ottava is an asset and I would hate to lose that. Someone who has shown a willingness and ability to contribute should be given many chances. Enigma 23:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

That is apparently impossible for the editor to do at this time. Please, just let the eight days pass. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

So just make it a ban from the namespace, as suggested. Let the editor contribute content and strongly discourage the bickering part of it. Enigma 23:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose none the less a potentially excellent editor in terms of content. I would support a log ban on using WP and WPT space--even indefinite-- to encourage the concentration on article writing. DGG (talk) 23:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
• Commment I find this editor extremely difficult to work with, but even so, he's clearly a productive article builder. I think that one more chance, with the knowledge that an indefinite block awaits if he continues down this path is merited. A WP/WPT ban also seems like it might be a good idea. -Chunky Rice (talk) 01:35, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

User':Fourtildas

Well, it's day two of my adminship and I'm already in over my head! Yikes... All right, so I need some advice from experienced admin-folk. Here's the story. I was contacted on IRC by a user who was the brunt of a rather nasty personal attack by User:Fourtildas (diff) after warning him for vandalism on Israel. I read through his talk page and decided not to immediately block at the time, left him with a level-3 no personal attacks warning, and resolved to look through his contribs later. Well, it's later now and I'm starting to think, just after reading through a few, that I probably should have blocked. He has been frequenting the Talk:Israel page with borderline uncivil comments and today went so far to describe Jews as "totally disgusting" (diff). I'm not sure how to proceed. L'Aquatique 08:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you did fine--just remember that blocks are preventative, not punitive. You might want to follow up your warning with a personal note about what is and isn't acceptable and advise him that further disruption or personal attacks will result in a revocation of his editing. Then I'd suggest watchlisting his page and keeping an eye on his contributions. Warnings sometimes take a little while to really sink in. --jonny-mt 08:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I did not say "Jews". Where did you get that idea? I was talking about people who try to insert their religious beliefs into Misplaced Pages in ways that would mislead some readers into thinking it was history. The "Land of Israel" article with maps is a prime example. I actually assumed it was mostly Christian fundamentalists doing this. Fourtildas (talk) 18:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, you do realize that it doesn't really matter who you were talking about, the comment was still wildly inappropriate, right? At Misplaced Pages, civility is one of our most cherished values. Hostile comments like the one you made at Talk:Israel do nothing to improve the article and only serve to hurt feelings and make the editing climate more tense. Please, cease and desist. L'Aquatique 18:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! I need to get some sleep now, but I will write a personally tailored warning tomorrow and hopefully this can be sorted out with a minimum of fuss. : ) L'Aquatique 09:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Indef banned user User:DavidYork71 again

editing as User:LapsAndLapsAhead. --Ave Caesar (talk) 11:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

This should go to Misplaced Pages:Suspected sockpuppets. Admiral Norton 12:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Possible WP:POINT / SockPuppetry / ... by User:barryispuzzled.

Cf. this edit on User_talk:Barryispuzzled. Barryispuzzled, Felsommerfeld, Bodleyman, and Tokomak1689 are listed as admitted sockpuppets. Barryispuzzled has identified himself as Barry R. Clarke (but while plausible, has not been verified). The two former have been taking a series of extreme positions in the Talk pages of various fringe theory articles (the Shakespeare authorship related articles), and skirted the edges of several Misplaced Pages policies (tendentious editing, edit-warring, NPOV, WP:POINT, AGF, etc. etc.).

I'd like to request that admins take a good long look at all the edits made from these accounts (particularly over the last month or so, but I suspect previous history will reveal more relevant edits). It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to do a checkuser to determine whether these users are in fact sockpuppets, and if so whether he has any more accounts.

Other editors have jumped through burning hoops to assume good faith on the part of these users, to help them participate productively on Misplaced Pages, and to deal with the fallout of the various edit wars, Talk page meltdowns, etc.. Several have given up in disguset or burned out over the conflict and controversy generated by, among others, the actions of these editors.

If it turns out that these actions have been deliberate, bad faith, attempts to disrupt Misplaced Pages, and that the apparent admission of sockpuppetry is accurat, I would suggest actively banning these users and any other sockpuppets a checkuser might turn up.

(Note I've thankfully never had to ask for admin review/intervention before so I hope I've posted in the right place and followed the ce correct procedures / policies. Please let me know if I've messed up on any count.) --Xover (talk) 12:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Note that user is still active and still pushing for "his" version of the Baconian theory (cf. this edit) despite the message admitting (plausibly) to running several sockpuppet accounts. He's also apparently playing some kind of game cf. this edit and this edit. --Xover (talk) 16:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

This user has a hidden agenda and is trying to dismantle the Baconian article. Puzzle Master (talk) 16:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Earlier today, based on an AIV report, I blocked a bunch of obvious socks who were vandalizing Baconian theory. They are Looneytune007 (talk · contribs), DigbyDaDog (talk · contribs), Anneharky (talk · contribs), and Picksauce (talk · contribs). I then semi-protected the page. The socks superficially appear to be barryispuzzled (talk · contribs). I also reverted a personal attack he made on his user talk page. I see now that this appears to be part of a larger ongoing dispute, but unfortunately I will be away from a computer for the next week or so and will not be able to monitor the situation. To any administrator that looks into this issue, please feel free to alter/undo the protection of that page and deal with the apparent abuses by barryispuzzled (or others) as you see fit. -- Ed (Edgar181) 16:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

barryispuzzled is the most evil person on Misplaced Pages. He makes numerous sockpuppets and tries to defend an article he created from people who turn up appearing to be helpful but actually have hidden agendas. Like Smatprt who wants as much Oxfordian material in the Baconian article as he can get away with. Like Xover comes on the article Talk page and talks to me nicey nicey pretending he wants to help but really intends to rewrite the article with Stratfordian bend. By the way, I know I'm wasting my time telling you this because I've asked for protection for the Baconian theory article before on this board but did anyone help? So I want it locked down for a period, maybe, a month so these wolves in sheeps clothing can't get their paws on it. You can if you want, completely miss the point and ban me but I have no faith in Administrators anyway. Never gave me help when I cried out for it. Puzzle Master (talk) 16:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, one other thing. I'd like you to give me a substantial ban because I know how much fun it is for you to have found a GENUINE bad guy you can release your wrath onto. It's easy to collectively bully someone (after all, manufacturing a common enemy tends to bind people together) from behind a computer screen isn't it, gentlemen. See my personal statement here. Puzzle Master (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Julie Dancer, repeated personal attack and harrassment

Please see Misplaced Pages:Village pump (assistance)#How strange? - personal attack after final warning given; repeated harassment emails to me and User:Kevin (see User talk:Kevin), as well as a professor at my school whom I have no relations with...--Jiuguang (talk) 14:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked Julie Dancer (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for one week, given that there was a previous final warning. I disabled e-mail, as well, given the concern above. It's clear that she is passionate about her chosen subject, which is good in itself - but this goes way, way too far. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 15:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I also received e-mails from Julie Dancer. Be advised that they have many sock puppets and are likely to continue harassment using these; I advise blocking all of them for a similar period. Dcoetzee 17:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Thrilling. Is there an SSP or RFCU page I should see? UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 18:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes - Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Julie Dancer. Also, a new User:Kadiddlehopper have joined in on the discussion using similar tactics, and based on this removed talk page content here, the user has a history of sock-puppetry and antisemitic attacks. --Jiuguang (talk) 18:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I have blocked this account for a week for block evasion. I'm going to block for longer if any more socks appear. Kevin (talk) 21:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Given the threats by her and her sock on that VP thread, I am surprised at only one week. DGG (talk) 23:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I blocked before I saw this thread, and the previous sockpuppetry. I've reset to indef. Next stop is WP:RFCU Kevin (talk) 23:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

SPA for stiring up trouble

Someone's mad at me: . NJGW (talk) 16:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Join the club. Blocked. MastCell  16:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Randy Pausch

Randy Pausch was a Unitarian Universalist. It deserves mention and has been omitted from his biography.

Randy Pausch was "a Unitarian Universalist who first came to (the) faith as a member of the First Unitarian Church of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania".

Source: http://www.uua.org/news/newssubmissions/117142.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by Susan bromirski (talk • contribs) 16:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

This should really be discussed on the Randy Pausch talk page, not here. I'm not sure what you'd need administrator action for in this case. Wildthing61476 (talk) 16:35, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Gcarini

This user is a hot-blooded A.C. Milan fan who likes to push unconfirmed transfer moves without any sort of official announcement. He also managed to call me a "fool" , threatening me to push "a complaint against me" , and defining me "hardly unbiased" and with a "ridiculous and biased attitude". It's not the first time this user acts this way, he called another Wikipedian a "liar" , and another one as "rubbish" . Since I am a Misplaced Pages administrator, and a long-time WP:FOOTY user with plenty of valuable and recognized contributions in Italian football articles (including even AC Milan's article), I feel these attack words as offensive against me. Obviously I am not going to block him as one of the involved parties, but please have a couple words with him, I'd like to avoid situations like these in the future. Thank you. --Angelo (talk) 17:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Self promotion on external links

Canadian (talk · contribs) wants to make more friends and has added external links to his various profiles on dozen of articles on social networking sites(e.g.: ). I've reverted some, but I think admins have some magic wand to do this in batch. Would anyone help? --Damiens.rf 17:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Warned for addition of spam links. Juliancolton 17:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done –xeno (talk) 17:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Request immediate review of block

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

TharkunColl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been blocked for two weeks by an involved admin, seemingly for taking part in calm and polite discussion on a talk page (link). EmpireForever (talk) 17:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I am not sure it's quite like that. I will look into it, though. But I am curious, EmpireForever, how such a new user as yourself forms an opinion of this block just moments after it happened, found this page so quickly. Jonathunder (talk) 17:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Assuming good faith here, however this recently archived thread might add a few details to the mix here. Wildthing61476 (talk) 17:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The block does not make sense to me, I have already left a note to the blocking admin that if he cannot make it make sense I will reverse it soon. This seems like a content issue to me. Chillum 17:57, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

While I would like to hear from the blocking administrator, I am a bit confused as to what exactly the block was issued for. Tiptoety 18:01, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) "Huh?" was my reaction when I read the block log and message. But I'd like to hear from the blocking admin too. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:02, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well I have waited 15 minutes, and I am waiting another 5. DD was there a moment ago when he did the block, if he is not here to explain it now when it really needs explaining then I will just go ahead with the unblock. I still will want to hear from the blocking admin regardless. Chillum 18:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay DD responded, but I still support an unblock. This is far too deep into the waters of telling people what content disputes they can participate in which is beyond the remit of admins. We don't get to tell people what they can and cannot debate then block them when they do it in a polite manner. Chillum 18:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, a block is not to be used in that manner, thats what a ban is for and Ddstretch can not just ban someone because he feels like it. This appears to be an issue that needs a better solution than a block. Tiptoety 18:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

So in other words, he's saying that TharkinColl was being disruptive (pointy)? I'm don't think it'd warrant two weeks in the same way as the other blocks...but I want to look at the circumstances behind those blocks first. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, this feels like a block that should be undone. Would Ddstretch be willing to do so himself? MBisanz 18:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I also agree the block should be undone. Prodego 18:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I just can't see the disruption, I have looked over all his contribs for the last week. It seems his only wrongdoing was taking an opposing point of view. If there are disruptive edits please provide diffs because I don't see it. Chillum 18:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the disruption either, but give me 5 minutes in any case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

My read: It looks like Tharkun started a discussion here, at Talk:Terminology of the British Isles. DDstretch then disagreed with the proposal, and expressly asked Tharkun not to discuss it until others had had a chance to opine on the matter, here. Tharkun responded anyway, here, and DD noted the fact here. Tharkun then replied with "...And if I asked you to go and jump off a cliff, would you?", which immediately resulted in his block by DDstretch for "(Disruptive editing: failure to abide by polite requst not to respond for a while, wich fits in with immediately preceding editing which resulted in articles being protected, etc.)" The Block and jump-off-a-cliff comment were both at 17:26 UTC. It's clear that DD was involved in the discussion with Tharkun, and that he asked Tharkun to delay responding until others had done so as well. Tharkun was under no policy obligation to do so, and chose not to - and DD blocked him. I would support an unblock, but I would also recommend strongly that Tharkun and DD stay the hell away from each other, as it's clear that they are not quite getting along, and further debate would enflame matters. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 18:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

(a number of e/c here now) I have had a number of edit conflicts that, combined with the time taken to type in my justification, has meant that things got delayed. I will reproduce my comments here if required, but they are now on TharkunColl's talk page.

(Added afterwards: you need to consider the prior history of The editor, and his actions wich I viewed as disruptive. I, however, accept that my action was probably not as justified as I first thought, but still believe the editor's actions are unduly provocative.)  DDStretch  (talk) 18:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec)I think it should be taken into account that this user has been blocked nine times by nine different admins (I could be off by one here, depending on how you count them) - inccluding a previous two-week block. This is not unprecedented for this user. Tan ǀ 39 18:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

← (edit conflict) I'm not a big fan of admin-abuse threads filed by obvious socks, so I my immediate reaction was a bit skeptical. Still, after looking at this, I think it should be handled by other means and that TharkunColl should be unblocked. As best I can tell, an admin involved in talk page discussion asked a question on an article talk page, and asked TharkunColl specifically not to answer it. When TharkunColl answered anyway, he was blocked by the same admin for 2 weeks. I don't think the tools should be used to enforce an involved admin's idea of how a talk-page discussion should proceed. Tharkun shouldn't have commented, but a better response when he did would have been just to ignore him, not to block him for 2 weeks. Anyhow, I'd favor an unblock and a friendly outside request to Tharkun to let other editors weigh in on the talk page in question. MastCell  18:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I am seeing strong consensus for a unblock here, Ddstretch are you willing? Tiptoety 18:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

(e/c)I agree with MastCell above. Blocking in this instance was not the most helpful action. I support the unblock. PeterSymonds (talk) 18:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

He has already. Chillum 18:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Good. I agree - I don't think the past instance is comparible to this. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Elaborated what I meant on his talk page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

(reply to Tiptoey,and e/c again) Of course I am willing, and I did part of it, but it is a bit frustrating to be asked to unblock, and to get halfway through it and then to discover someone else has completed it, making it appear that I was unwilling!  DDStretch  (talk) 18:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Well that is unfortunate timing, however I certainly believe you were willing and even on your way to do it. Chillum 18:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

@ DDStretch, while it may have been poor timing, I think your response to the unblock request speaks buckets of your willingness. Tiptoety 18:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I did the unblock before you posted your notice. I checked out the situation and what immediately led up to it, and decided that the two-week block for "failure to abide by a simple request" was a bad block. (See, I'm learning something after my fiasco last Saturday with Kmweber (talk · contribs) and Bedford (talk · contribs).) --Elkman 18:31, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

odd archiving

and are two examples of NCMVocalist closing and removing to subpages two very large threads. As Kelly notes, Ncmvocalist is not an admin, nor an AN/I clerk. Is there a good reason for him to do this, esp. on threads he's involved in? ThuranX (talk) 19:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, if you've been around here for enough time, discussions that are getting long are moved to subpages - that's not archiving. And another thing you've got wrong - I'm only involved in one of those discussions - and that was closed from agreement of all involved. The other discussion I'm not involved in, but needs enough space for full discussion. Assuming good faith as always ThuranX...what can I say? :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Do you ever assume good faith Thuranx? The pages were not archived, they were moved to their respected subpages to keep down on the length of ANI. The page is 256 KB long, with two subpages not included, and it renders slow for many users who have non-high-speed Internet connections. This has been ongoing for a while, to move discussions that have all but ended, to subpages so that it may reduce the page load. This requires no immediate administrator attention, or even any administrator attention, for that matter. seicer | talk | contribs 19:48, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey, I brought it up here after noting another editor's comments. ThuranX (talk) 19:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to thank Ncm for doing this myself, even on a high speed connection it made for navigating this page rather tedious. Wildthing61476 (talk) 19:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

You're most welcome. :) It was beginning to irritate me too! Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• In regards to thread moves to subpages, I think it would be best to at least ask for consensus before doing so. From what I've seen, moving threads to subpages basically kills all input from uninvolved parties. This means that the only people left talking are the most-partisan, resulting in zero-consenseus max-heat min-light conversations with no result. Stop moving to subpages without agreement. Ncmvocalist has no authority or consensus to do this type of work in any case, and should knock it off, particularly in threads in which he is involved. If it needs to be done, let an admin do it. Kelly 19:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
  • What I think is...both you and ThuranX need to stop engaging in this unseemly conduct and move on. No, I don't think it's best we let this ANI page go from 375kb to 500kb asking for consensus to do a routine task: moving obviously long discussions to sub pages so that this ANI page remains readily accessible to the sane community. It has never been, nor ever will be a requirement either. I also think both of you have major issues if you think someone is involved in a discussion they haven't contributed to, or they become involved in a dispute just for offering third party uninvolved input. An admin has clearly stated that "this requires no immediate administrator attention, or even any administrator attention, for that matter." I fully agree. Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
    • • Another admin clearly stated that it was rude of you to hide a thread just minutes after you closed it. . DuncanHill (talk) 21:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
        • Yes, but as I wrote to the editor who filed the ANI, that was a mistake on my part - I should've put it in a sub-page and waited the necessary amount of time prior to archiving/hiding. The editor who filed the ANI on the other hand was perfectly willing for it to be archived. Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:19, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
          • So when you described me and 2 others as edit-warring over it, what you meant was that one (an admin) had corrected your mistake, another editor had repeated your archiving, and that I had simply done exactly what that admin had done (in the absence at that time of any explanation or apology from you on this page for your mistake)? DuncanHill (talk) 21:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
            • I didn't realize the mistake until afterwards, amidst, what appeared to me to be an edit-war at the time. Other than that, you've summarized it. Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Ncm, I see you are not currently an admin. Would you like to be one? Kelly 20:41, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
      • If only I knew. :) But, again, I'll emphasize...you need to move on. Ncmvocalist (talk) 20:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
        • "Move on" from what? Please stop your attempted "clerking" on this page until you have some consensus to do so. The subpaging is counterproductive, in my opinion. Get some authority or consensus to do so before you continue it, please. Thank you. Kelly 21:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
          • Thanks, but no thanks. :) Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
            • Um, OK. That's one of the most singularly unhelpful responses I've ever received. In that case, I'll feel free to revert you in the absence of any other consensus. Kelly 21:12, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

What's going on at WQA is becoming a big problem and rendering it ineffective as a step in dispute resolution; it looks like those who have "taken charge" of the page are turning dispute resolutions into disputes, it's reminiscent of what led to the downfall of WP:CSN, and some fresh eyes might be needed at WQA so that it can be used as was intended; also concerned about a lot of premature archiving here at ANI. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know who is right and who is wrong, but could people please stop edit-warring on AN/I over the archival of threads? Enigma 21:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd be happy to stop (I already have) but Ncmvocalist continues to disruptively subpage content from this page. Kelly 21:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
    • It was subpaged with approval by User:Seicer, which is much more than I can say for any of your disruptive revert-warring. This is not about archiving threads - it's about keeping ANI accessible; something Kelly is seemingly intent on making unaccessible. Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
      • I have no idea which thread you're referring to. If there was consensus to subpage a particular thread, please point me to the consensus to do so. If there is a general conensus to subpage threads once they reach a particular size, point me to that. If there is neither, then knock off the disruptive subpaging. It interferes with obtaining consensus by removing it from general public view. Kelly 21:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
      • With all respect to Seicer, he has no special authority on this page, nor do you. I see no evidence that this page has become significantly more inaccessible lately. Please stop aggressively archiving/moving sections. If it's important to you find a consensus for a solution. RxS (talk) 21:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
        • With due respect to you then, both editors and admins (in their numbers) obviously disagree with you - it is taking too long to load. The claim that it is outside of public view is meritless - the section still exists pointing to the subpage it's been moved to. This has been a long established practice of dealing with ANI complaints when they get lengthy. It hasn't been archived. Ncmvocalist (talk) 21:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
          • • Link to policy/guideline/consensus, please? (I've asked this already, why is it so hard?) Kelly 21:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
            • Well, the last discussion I see shows no consensus supporting your position . Did it develop elsewhere? And is there some evidence that load time has become a problem? RxS (talk) 22:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
              • Several editors and sysops have agreed that it has become a lot slower since the size of this page has been as large as it has lately. That's why they came to thank me on my talk page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 22:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• • • • • • • • Because norms are not always (if at all) codified. You're welcome to check the archives and find each subpage that already exists if you like though. You refuse to stop with the unseemly conduct, so I think I'm done here. Ncmvocalist (talk) 22:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
                • Thanks. Kelly 22:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
              • That discussion was about standard archiving (leaving no link to the thread), not moving large threads to subpages. Consensus for this doesn't come from some policy or guideline, but (as it often does) from accepted practice. People have been moving many large ANI threads to subpages for the last 6-8 months (see for the complete list, which I remember having only about six pages about six months ago). If the concern is getting fresh eyes on the discussion to promote resolution, you can post a new thread to ANI repeating the link and asking for fresh participants or spam links to the village pump, for example.--chaser - t 22:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
                • I would disagree with the above - there is no such consensus or standard practice. When it has happened, people have complained, and more importantly, discussion has died. Kelly 22:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
                  • Who has complained specifically about moving large threads to subpages?--chaser - t 22:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
                    • Me, and the others complaining in this thread, should serve as a starting point. Kelly 22:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Kelly alone has violated 3RR in deliberate WP:POINT, and nothing's been done. If the entire community is going to sit back and let this group unreasonably and repeatedly continue to do so, then what's the point? I see no need to contribute here any further. Ncmvocalist (talk) 22:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Group? I wasn't acting in concert with anyone, but if there's a group, let me know who my compadres are. Kelly 22:13, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

You've both violated 3rr, but the edit-war has stopped, so blocking shouldn't be necessary.--chaser - t 22:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to dispute the fact that the discussion whose archiving I reverted needed closing. I reverted because it is rude to deliberately hide the discussion four minutes after the discussion is closed. That is what is rude to the participants. The several people discussing on that thread deserve to at the very least see that the current discussion is closed and should be open somewhere else, not that it should be wiped off this noticeboard on an editor's whim. And before someone says "check the archives" or something similar to that garbage, tell me, how many people look at subpages compared to this board? —Kurykh 22:15, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that AN/I gets big, and sometimes it gets a bit too big, and something needs to be done about it, but moving big threads to subpages isn't the right way to go, IMHO. As has been pointed out above, moving threads to subpages takes away the attention, simply because the threads don't appear in anyone's watchlist anymore. Yes, sure, you can always watchlist the subpages, but first you got to find out that there is a subpage. Depending on how you use this page (Using your watchlist or the RSS feed, instead of visiting ] every now and then, for example), that's not likely to happen. It happened a couple of times to me now that I was wondering why no one was making any edits to a particular thread anymore, only to find out that it has been moved to a subpage a few hours or days ago. Additionally, I think Kelly made a pretty good point above as s/he pointed out that uninvolved parties are not as likely to comment on a subpage. Yes, it's just one extra click, but it's one extra click for every thread that was moved. --Conti|✉ 22:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how else to deal with it. This page is basically impossible on dialup, and it's not as though we can predict what threads will be huge when they're started.--chaser - t 23:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Horologium has archived it, I've moved the thread to the bottom of this page (where people go to look for new threads), and I've also spammed WP:VPM and WP:AN to get more eyes on this topic.--chaser - t 23:11, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I am much happier with moving large thread for clarity, but we do need to work out a better way of making them still evident. Perhaps the AN/I main page could quite specifically carry a list of currently open subpages, right at the top? DGG (talk) 23:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that something should be done, and I'm not sure what the best thing to do is, either. Maybe we need to rethink how AN/I works in general. Maybe we should use subpages for every thread (That way people will get used to it and regularly check out what they're interested in. Then again, uninvolved people will still be less likely to appear in a given thread). Moving threads about unresolved subpages to the bottom of this page is a good idea, tho. Maybe we could add a short (and neutral!) summary of the subpages to the corresponding threads, too? Often enough, it's not clear at all what a thread/subpage is about until you look at it. A list of current subpages sounds like a good idea, too. --Conti|✉ 23:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Nanny's Boy & his questionably notable criminal articles...

I happened across a new page the other day that was a short article about a completely non-notable criminal. The page was created by User:Nanny's Boy (contribs) (also using IP 99.243.60.43). Looking through the user's contribs list, it appears that he has created several articles that are of the same questionably notable subjects. I have tagged a couple for speedy, ones that were blatently NN ("he was a criminal, he robbed people, he died" type articles)... Before the user in question starts thinking I have some strange vendetta against him/her/it, and before I start appearing BITEy, I would like someone else to take a look through the contribs, and see if they can help sort out the possibly notable articles from the obviously non-notable... - Adolphus79 (talk) 19:58, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Mobsters are often of popular interest and can command a lot of independant sources (rather the other kind!). Without access to The Brothers Bulger: How They Terrorized and Corrupted Boston for a Quarter of a Century, for instance, Francis_X._Leonard is kind of hard to judge, but assuming this information is researchable, and not personal knowledge on his part, it probably passes WP:N. WilyD 20:09, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Maletinazo: BLP, COI, legal issues, and political implications

I am posting this here rather than one of the other noticeboards because extra eyes are needed: it involves

1. mention of lawsuits (that don't rise to the level of WP:THREAT but do give rise to concern),
2. BLP (Antonini Wilson, who reliable sources say is cooperating with the FBI in the Maletinazo investigation, and others),
3. possible COI (an investigating company may be involved), and
4. political scandal (Maletinazo was a Venezuelan–Argentine scandal involving the adminstrations of both Presidents Hugo Chávez and Cristina Fernández de Kirchner).

See Talk:Maletinazo#Antonini Wilson background

I left a talk message for Jossi yesterday, to bring in extra eyes that read Spanish, but have had no response (the Spanish sources say the same thing as the English sources). Until someone else who reads Spanish can check the sources, I'll assert that there is no WP:SYNTHESIS or WP:OR in the disputed section of the article: it contains claims asserted by multiple English- and Spanish-language reliable sources, and does not string claims together in synthesis. The Antonini section of the article reports what multiple reliable sources say (I haven't checked some of the rest of the article as thoroughly ... much of it was written by others, and some of it is poor English, but it is only the Antonini section that is being challenged).

A new user, Alessio.aguirre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) (not a common Hispanic name) has been deleting text relating to reliably sourced mentions of the companies, ProArepa and American Food Grain. The reliable sources connect ProArepa to the Chavez administration and the Maletinazo players and scandal.

Googling Alessio Aguirre yields: Profile: Alessio Aguirre. "Born in Argentina, grew up in Venezuela, now live in Miami. I work at Kroll (www.Kroll.com) as director of r Computer Foresnic Services for Latin America." See the nature of Kroll.com's business, which is the basis of my COI concern.

Alessio.aguirre mentioned on the talk page that:

I understand that there may be any number newspaper or other media articles that make the same claim, after administrative or legal actions with them the articles were taken down, sometimes with a simple email, sometimes after a simple “Libel" and "Slander” lawsuit.

and

I usually deal with news agencies or webmasters and need not worry about internal policies and other internal documents.

So, there is some evidence it may be the same Alessio Aguirre, working for Kroll.com.

Sources for the text include The Miami Herald (no longer available online, but text is is quoted accurately in the footnote), St. Petersburg Times, USA Today, Bloomberg, The Wall Street Journal, and leading Venezuelan and Argentine newspapers (El Universal, Clarin, and La Nacion).

Because there is the potential here for COI and legal concerns, I'd like others to get involved: it would help if others could read the sources in Spanish. I do speak Spanish fluently, all of these are leading and reputable sources, and they are accurately represented and agree with the English sources, but extra eyes are needed here. I'm unsure if Wiki will be inclined to delete the reliably sourced text anyway, because lawsuits have been raised on the talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:21, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Without speaking to the rest of the problem, all the text that is cited to Spanish sources in Maletinazo#Antonini Wilson background reflects the content of one or more sources accurately. Titoxd 21:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

213.205.x.x

Tonight, 213.205.225.207 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) and on previous nights using a number of IP addresses within the 213.205.x.x range has been making infrequent uncivil edits on my page and other pages. The problems started when I made a request to semi-protect the TalkSPORT article because the user had been constantly adding violations against the Biographies of Living Persons policy and potentially libellous information about one of the presenters . Discussion was started by other editors on the talk page to no avail (other than an uncivil comment to another editor ). Since the semi protection was granted for the TalkSPORT article, the user has been taking out their frustration on me and making personal attacks, including adding a fair use image on my user page twice under two IP addresses and changing my messages on the aforementioned discussion on the TalkSPORT article. Because they keep switching their IP address at least once a day, it is proving difficult to communicate or prevent this user vandalising pages except for reverting again and again. Is there anything that can be done which won't result in collateral damage for other users? --tgheretford (talk) 20:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Avril troll

Back again. Please block Dark Angel X5 Max (talk · contribs) and protect Misplaced Pages:Reference desk/RD header/GNU. Algebraist 20:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done Tiptoety 20:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Kathleen Battle neutrality conflict

I am not sure I am in the right place or not. There is currently a conflict over the neutrality of the article on Kathleen Battle in relation to the coverage of her firing from the Metropolitan Opera. There are no problems of civility in this discussion, but there are some suspect interpretations of WP:NPOV floating around and some Misplaced Pages:Gaming the system by User:Hrannar. This user reverts or removes information that supposedly is a neutrality violations or violations of living person bio guidelines even when the info comes from multiple major news sources such as the New York Times and Time Magazine. How do I solve this? Please help.Nrswanson (talk) 22:10, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Large amount of Rangeblocks by Raul654

Moved to Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Large_amount_of_Rangeblocks_by_Raul654

Another good threadkill by Ncmvocalist. Good to see that ANI has clerks now. Kelly 19:32, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

This could use some more input from other editors, please.--chaser - t 22:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

It won't really get any if it's on a subpage. Kelly 00:01, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I object to the archiveing/moving/hiding/whatever of a thread only 40K long. - brenneman 00:38, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

CameronPG (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I've just PRODded a whole pile of articles like this one on Disney songs from this editor, since song articles can't be speedied. This displays all the attributes of being a MascotGuy sock, but has been around since 2007. (Look at the talkpage!) Thoughts? Wheelchair Epidemic (talk) 23:05, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

• Since many seem to be plausible search terms they should really be redirects to the films they are from. --Rividian (talk) 00:12, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• User also created a bunch of categories related to songs from Disney films. Six categories that I counted, possibly more. Enigma 00:19, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
• User has now been notified of the discussion. Enigma 00:21, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

• Yes - to be honest I didn't bother informing because the user doesn't communicate - he has precisely zero edits to talkpages in his entire history and practically nothing to usertalk (another MascotGuy marker). And look here... (in association with the LTA page linked to in my initial post). Wheelchair Epidemic (talk) 00:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Admin help needed for category move?

I need help moving Category:Fictional transgendered people to Category:Fictional transgender people - changing transgendered to simply transgender. I don't think I've tried to move a category before so it may require an admin? Banjeboi 23:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, you can't actually move a category. You simply have to go to each page (manually or with the assistance of AWB/a bot) and swap Category:Fictional transgendered people and Category:Fictional transgender people. When the category is empty, tag it for deletion with {{Db-c2}}. - auburnpilot talk 00:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

That explains it. Thank you! Banjeboi 00:48, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Family Guy DVDs

There is quite a persistent unregistered user marked as 151.196.170.14 who keeps adding that Family Guy Volume 6 might have 16 episodes. However, there is no official proof of that, though this user still does not quit. I do admit that I have been changing this person's edits on this article for quite some time now, which I am unsure was the right thing to do, as it seems to have begun a relentless edit war. This does not seem to be noticed, so can someone please look into this? Immblueversion 02:05, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

1. http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=dm-ufcscoring070708&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
2. http://sports.yahoo.com/mma/news?slug=dm-ufcscoring070708&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

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