Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Coppertwig (talk | contribs) at 23:32, 6 August 2008 (→Chiropractic: Until we get a new consensus.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

☺

Those who participated in my RfA, please see Thank you for participating in my RfA. (Result: non-admin with 68/44/18.)

Welcome to my talk page. Please take off your shoes at the entrance and have a seat. Tea will be served shortly. Please keep all comments here calm and polite. Messages that are welcome here:

• politely-worded criticisms of my behaviour (but please see procedure below if you're thinking of posting criticisms of other users)
• calmly-expressed differences of opinion
• questions about how to edit Misplaced Pages
• just saying hello or whatever
• etc.; I like getting that "you have new messages" banner.

Re criticism of users other than myself: If you're having problems with another editor, I'll probably be happy to try to help you, but please follow this procedure.

• consider not posting any criticism of another editor. It's possible to ask for help without criticizing anybody.
• If you need to tell me something that is critical of another editor, please don't post it on this talk page, but instead post it on your own talk page or the talk page of the other user (assuming it is not inappropriate to do so); I suggest being as diplomatic as possible
• you're then welcome to put a link from this talk page to such comment. (for how to do links, see for example Links or Simplest diff guide, or just tell me the name of the section on which page)
• when giving the link, please avoid posting any words of criticism on this page. For example, it's fine to say "see comment critical of user X at (link)" but please don't say things like e.g. "see comment describing disruptive behaviour of user X at (link)".
• You might also consider emailing me.

One way to leave a message here is to click on "new section" tab at the top of this page. Sometimes I reply here, sometimes on your talk page, etc.; feel free to let me know which you'd prefer.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12

RFA

Good luck on your RfA -- ₮inucherian - 06:11, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 11:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Back

Not that you don't know that, but it occurs to me that I haven't officially said hello since my return. :) While I'm very busy unpacking and getting affairs in order (oi! the state of my lawn!), my body clock is so out of whack that time seems to just melt away and nothing really gets accomplished. Is it really the 8th already? It doesn't help that I can't seem to stay coherent past 9:00 p.m. or asleep past about 4:00 a.m. (my time). I'm a morning person by nature, but I can't really regard 4:00 a.m. as morning. It seems much more fitting a time for the fellow to the right.

Thanks for helping out at the drawing board in my absence! While I've gradually come to understand that Misplaced Pages can survive just fine without me, I do always feel a bit regretful about not helping out there. Elipongo is excellent at it (and often comes up with things that don't occur to me!), but he has indicated that time constraints sometimes delay his response and so often the people there are new and a bit anxious. :)

I'm eager to get back into routine. I'm glad that I don't have to travel often. I'm absolutely not cut out for it! --Moonriddengirl 11:30, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back!! I'm sorry I forgot to check the drawing board very often, and didn't even think of watching over your talk page until a couple of days ago; looks like you have other helpers, though.

I have trouble with time zones, too. What I usually do is I either continue sleeping on my home time zone schedule while I travel, (which is feasible if going a few hours west and expected to be up during working hours), or else I start months ahead of time gradually shifting to the time zone of the place I'll be travelling to. Shifting to a later time is much easier than shifting to an earlier time. (This may apply more to me than to you but is a general trait of diurnal (daytime) animals such as humans. (as I remember from reading this book years ago.)) Last time after coming home after travelling east, I easily shifted back to my home time zone but forgot to re-institute discipline after a few days of letting myself sleep in later and later, and overshot and had trouble re-shifting back again. I also stayed up too late at a party shortly after coming home, not fully realizing how very late my body would consider it to be, and practically got sick.

Anyway, it's great to have you back. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 11:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Request that you intercede to stop harassment of me by your supporter

User:Redthoreau continues to place threatening and harassing messages on my user page because I have publically expressed my view regarding your nomination for admin as well as your desire to mentor User:Iantresman. He has added more to my user page within the last hour. I request that you intercede to plead that he stop. I am merely presenting my views in public forums. Sincerely, –Mattisse (Talk) 19:18, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Interesting interpretation on reality ... both of the only messages I have left for you on your talk page have been in relation to your attacks on me, and practice of following me around (which you were already warned about) and attempting to "game the system". The one who needs to stop here is you Mattisse ... something you have shown you can't do after returning from your vacation.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 19:45, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

from your own archives

Incivility by Redthoreau An/I acknowledgment that I am being put to the test on Che Guevara, from your own archives. It makes your onesided behavior all the more inexplicable. I don't expect an answer from you as there have been answer galore since. –Mattisse (Talk) 02:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

My peace offer to Mattisse

Just so you know Coppertwig, I have offered peace to Mattisse and will no longer be discussing any issues regarding me and him/her. I hope you can respect this. Thanks. ---> My peace offering.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 16:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Please consider taking the AGF Challenge

I would like to invite you to consider taking part in the AGF Challenge which has been proposed for use in the RfA process by User: Kim Bruning. You can answer in multiple choice format, or using essay answers, or anonymously. You can of course skip any parts of the Challenge you find objectionable or inadvisable.--Filll (talk) 17:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Plus, it's fun! :) --Moonriddengirl 20:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Interesting and challenging questions! I had intended to do this early in my RfA, but as it turned out I didn't have time. In effect, the time I could have used for this I used instead to write this essay on NPOV, which attempts to address concerns raised in my RfA. I'll likely do the AGF Challenge, essay-question style, some time in the next few weeks. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 15:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Your help

Thanks for your explanation about the deletion. It's just a little strange that the deleted article was recreated. There was a tag on it saying please move it or something (can't quite remember) so as this person didn't seem notable i moved it to a place name.

But I'll ask the person who deleted it - thanks Fynci Mynci (talk) 14:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Signature! Psst!

After your last comment at your RfA. :) --Moonriddengirl 18:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! ☺ 14:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Rfb participation thanks

Hello, Coppertwig.

I wanted to personally thank you for taking part in the project-wide discussions regarding my candidacy for bureaucratship. After bureaucratic discussion, the bureaucrats decided that there was sufficient significant and varied opposition to my candidacy, and thus no consensus to promote. Although personally disappointed, I both understand and respect their decision, especially in light of historical conservatism the project has had when selecting its bureaucrats. While it appears that you too may soon share that astringent taste of a failed RfX, please take heart and don't let it dissuade you from another attempt down the line! Also, I owe you special thanks for your detailed and thoughtful support rationales, together with your mathematical defense of me :) If you have any further suggestions or comments as to how you think I could help the project, please let me know. Once again, thank you for your support. -- Avi (talk) 18:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

My pleasure. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Water supply and sanitation in the Philippines

Hi Coppertwig, Thanks a lot for taking a look at the article. Your comments help me to improve this one as well as the other articles. I just changed some things and posted answers to your suggestions. Greetings! --Kerres (Talk) 13:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I translated some articles from Spanish to English, but now I write my own articles. The articles which I translated are all about water supply and sanitation in Latin American countries. So far I have written four articles on my own, which you can see on my user page. I am now beginning to write the fifth one about water supply and sanitation in Benin. Your reviews are always welcome! You can choose from the articles on Ghana, Bangladesh and the one which I just concluded, Water supply and sanitation in Uganda. Thanks a lot for your help! Kerres (Talk) 08:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Well Deserved

		The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
		I am continually impressed with your unshakeable civility, kindness, objectivity, fairness, and indomitable will to remain "above the fray" regardless of how many times others snipe at you. Your decorum and resolute commitment to polite discussion, exemplifies how every Wiki editor should behave.    Redthoreau (talk Redthoreau 22:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Request for adminship

I have closed your RFA as unsuccessful. Raul654 (talk) 04:01, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

A bit sad to see that your RFA this time was unsuccessful. But dont worry. Take a break and come again. Wish you all the best -- TinuCherian - 05:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I consider it Misplaced Pages's loss. Also I am perplexed why 68/44 is not concensus ?   ♣ Redthoreau (talk) RT 15:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

First, I like Coppertwig's mannerisms and I supported his RfA as part of the silent majority. However, consensus is not majority rules. If the vote had been 9999/44 it still would not have been consensus. 44 Wikipedians expressed some concerns and if that many people have or agree about concerns that stand up to analysis then consensus has clearly not been established.

"Consensus decision-making is a group decision making process that not only seeks the agreement of most participants, but also to resolve or mitigate the objections of the minority to achieve the most agreeable decision." (emphasis added)

Misplaced Pages needs more people like Coppertwig, but when 40+ people express real issues then it becomes his job to carefully analyze those issues and see what options exist for changing their concerns -- ie: "to resolve or mitigate" them. Certainly he will not win over everyone, but he needs to seriously reduce the number of folks who are able to express valid concerns. Had he been able to do so in the RfA he would have eliminated those views and consensus would have occured.

If people say he should not be an admin because he has been doing "XX" then he has three choices: (1) stop doing XX, (2) keep doing XX but give up the idea of being an admin, or (3) convince objectors that XX is really a good thing.

Whatever XX is for Coppertwig there is one more thing he should keep in mind: Sometimes it is not one's actions that are the issue, sometimes it is the perception of those actions that is the real issue. There is one editor here who I often disagree with and when I first encountered him I was angry at his rudeness. Eventually I learned that he wasn't so much rude but rather was a stickler for the rules. I think if he could have been more tactful I probably would never have been angry at all. Coppertwig is the soul of tact but obviously something about his actions is causing concerns among his peers. Is it the actions or the perception of the actions? Because of this he needs to look at his own actions and decide if he made an error in his actions/judgements or if he just needs to change the manner he takes his actions (or both).

Looking at the RfA the major issue seem to be questions of judgement. He vigorously defended one editor and some folks think that was a bad decision. Was it? He supported certain subject matters and some folks think that was a bad decision. Was it? Were these items of defense/support a case of standing by his convictions or a case of not willing to retreat from a battle? And were these items truely worth his support by the standards of Misplaced Pages? If he can honestly look at himself and find meaningful answers then he may become an admin yet. I would be glad to support him again. -- Low Sea (talk) 17:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for closing my RfA and for letting me know, Raul654.

I plan to post individual thank-you messages to all participants here on my talk page, probably later today. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 08:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Redthoreau, in order to ensure that admins are people who are generally trusted by the community, conventionally RfA's do not succeed when the level of support is less than something like 80%. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Tinucherian has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Cheers, and happy editing! . I hope this will bring a smile back on your face - -- TinuCherian - 05:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Why, thank you, TinuCherian. How thoughtful. Don't worry: I'm doing fine. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 08:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey Coppertwig, I'd like to offer my condolences on your RfA, and also commend you for remaining very civil throughout, even in the face of (in my opinion) some very weak arguments against you. It's unfortunate we had a negative interaction; after looking through your edit history and seeing what others had to say about you, I can only assume that it was a blip, a fluke. If anything, you seem to be a little too civil at times. From what I've seen, you're definitely a future admin. Again, I'm a bit surprised you didn't succeed this time, as I didn't see many very good oppose rationales (no offense to anyone). Keep your head up, and I look forward to supporting next time around. Cheers, faithless () 21:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. On your RfA, I think it was a combination of some sort of misunderstanding or difficulty in communicating, plus my occasionally forgetting not to try to hold others to the same standards of civility that I try to maintain myself, plus a strong tendency to vote "oppose" which I had especially in the first few RfA's I participated in. It's always easier to find one thing to criticize than to find reasons to support someone. I'm glad it didn't prevent you from receiving your adminship.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Low Sea, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Ah, perceptions.

One of the things I love about Misplaced Pages is that you can go to an article you've never edited before and just start editing it, and nobody will complain. They won't say "Hey, who are you? Why are you editing this article?"

However, I've learned that there are occasional situations where it is a good idea to introduce oneself, to give people some idea of why you're there, what you expect to do, whether you're there briefly or in the long-term, etc. In recent months I've done this occasionally where it seems appropriate, for example here.

Perhaps one of my problems is that too often I assume that others will assume good faith, so I see no need to explain why I'm doing something. One example is with questions. I tend to assume that if I ask a question, it will be obvious that the reason I'm asking is that I would like to receive information. However, sometimes that doesn't work.

Because you brought up the topic of perceptions, I posted an explanation at the top of my RfA thanks section, which I probably would not otherwise have included. It may seem obvious to me why I'm doing something, but that kind of explanation given ahead of time can prevent problems before they happen.

Perhaps some of the problems that arose on this RfA were due to my not explaining at the time my reasons for doing things. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I do sincerely hope that this little blip hasn't fazed you unduly. Your RfA failed for the very best of reasons in my view; you were perceived to be too trusting, and too likely to assume AGF. Neither of those are shooting offences, and I'd be very surprised if those same issues were to re-surface at your next RfA. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Malleus. I'm feeling fine. I'm heartened by the many people who took time to participate. It was quite an experience. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Low Sea, I appreciate your support very much. I do try to stand by my convictions, but I think you're right that there may also have been some misperceptions about what I was doing. If I had explained the reasons for my actions at the time, then I might have been correctly seen as trying to collect information in order to develop my opinion so that I could contribute a more informed opinion to a discussion. I'm not sure which article you're thinking of in terms of defending subject matter, but there's often confusion between arguments about article content and arguments about a subject matter. I'm usually focussed on article content as well as preventing personal attacks and edit wars and usually say nothing about my views on the subject matter. Perhaps if I'd explained my reasons at the time I wouldn't have been seen as trying to make an argument in the domain of the subject matter. There's no point arguing about subject matter on Misplaced Pages since all significant points of view have to be represented anyway. Again, I really appreciate your message and will try to keep the idea of perceptions in mind: I think it will be very helpful for me. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:44, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

"Beret"Star

		The Che 'Beret'star
		"Hasta la Victoria Siempre" For your dilligent and "revolutionary" commitment to improving the quality of Che Guevara.   Redthoreau (talk) RT 17:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for participating in my RfA.

I appreciate the time and effort that each of you has taken to participate in my RfA, which was closed as "unsuccessful. No consensus to promote" with 68 Support votes, 44 Oppose and 18 Neutral. I realize that what is usually done is to post messages to the talk pages of participants. However, that practice has also received some criticism, and even if most people prefer it, posting a large number of messages would almost certainly include a few to people who would rather not receive them, so I thought I would try something different this time and list the messages here. I believe I've included everyone who participated; please tell me if I you notice I forgot anyone. (List is in alphabetical order. If your signature has a surname separated with a space from the first name, it's probably under the surname. Otherwise probably under the first letter of the username.) ☺ Coppertwig

• Merci beaucoup to Achromatic for contributing your skeptical opinion. Danke schön.
• Thanks to Ali'i for your supportive comments in the Discussion section.
• Thanks to Antelan for pointing out the distinction between short-term and long-term abuse, giving me something to think about.
• Thanks to Apis for a detailed oppose rationale covering several topics. I plan to study and carefully reflect on the feedback I've received.
• Thanks to Arkyan for your brief but agreeable contribution.
• Thanks to Asenine for letting me know which areas to focus more attention on.
• Thanks to Ashton1983 for contributing your voice to the discussion.
• Thanks to Avi, for being the first to award me a barnstar and the first to offer to nominate me for RfA. Your faith in me has been a great source of encouragement. Thanks for the time you were able to find for me even when you were going through RfB.
• Thanks to Avruch for not spelling your username quite exactly the same as Avi, ☺ and for your astronomical support.
• Thanks to B for participating. Thanks for your work at WP:3RRN, too, where I look forward to continuing to work with you.
• Thanks to Badger Drink for seeing two sides to the issue and for clearly having thought things over carefully.
• Thanks to Baegis for participating in my RfA and for expanding on your rationale. The Che Guevara page has been a learning experience for me, both in terms of compliance with the MOS and in terms of responding to disruptive user behaviour. It's clear that I still have a lot to learn in both those areas. Thank you for reminding me to focus on continuing to learn, and for helping me learn to be more diplomatic by pointing out that a statement I made about evidence was overly demanding.
• Thanks to Barkjon. Welcome.
• Thanks to Bedford for offering your opinion and reminding me to be careful.
• Thanks to Bearian for contributing a unique perspective.
• Thanks to Bfigura for calling my contributions impressive.

• Thanks to Blackworm for your wonderful compliments. It's a pleasure working with you.
• Thanks to BozMo for contributing reflective thoughts to the RfA process.
• Gratias tibi ago, Anthony.bradbury, for your sense of perspective.
• Thanks to Brewcrewer for taking time out of your graduate school work to participate in my RfA
• Thanks to Cailil for explaining your perspective. I would be interested in further discussion and elaboration to try to figure out why we see the situation so differently.
• Thanks to Cameron for thinking things over. I'm sorry if you wanted me to elaborate something which I did not; feel free to ask me questions even now.
• Thanks to Canyouhearmenow for visiting my RfA and commenting. I like your AGF userbox.
• Thanks to User:Cardamon for providing a specific oppose rationale, and for including a compliment in it.
• Thanks to User:Casliber for your balanced contribution.
• Thanks to CharlotteWebb for your brief but much appreciated contribution to my RfA and for your incisive thoughts on your userpage: quite true! LOL! ☺
• Thanks to Cla68 for agreeing to disagree. ☺
• Thanks to Cyclonenim for a contribution from Nottinghamshire.

  Oberon, Oberon, rake away the gold,

  Rake away the red leaves, roll away the mould,

  Rake away the gold leaves, roll away the red,

  And wake Will Scarlett from his leafy forest bed.

  Alfred Noyes

• Thanks to Dan Beale-Cocks for taking the time to think things over and to look at diffs. I very much appreciate all the time everyone has put into this.
• Thanks to Dank55 for finding something different to respect me for, and for helping straighten out the issue of the use of the word "claim" in fringe articles.
• Thanks to DarkFalls for considering the evidence. I like your John Steinbeck quote.
• Thanks to Davewild for having faith in me.
• Thanks to Dihydrogen Monoxide for supporting me and for having a refreshingly scientific username.
• Thanks to Dlohcierekim for weighing the pros and cons.
• Thanks to Dorftrottel for your moral support. I will be thinking over the various points raised in this RfA.
• Thanks to Dragon695 for supporting me in spite of my faults. I don't quite get how your shortcut page works, but I do something similar: For my own navigational convenience I have User:Coppertwig/links, which I sometimes transclude at the top of my user or user talk page, and sometimes set my browser home page to get to it. In Mozilla you can have a bookmark bar which is like having more than one home page. Thanks again for visiting my RfA; I found it very encouraging to get those last few support votes right near the end.
• Thanks to east718 for giving me a specific homework assignment for my next RfA.
• Thanks to Editorofthewiki for asking a good question. I very much appreciate your support rationale submitted in the final hours.
• Thanks to EJF for taking time to participate in my RfA in spite of being busy studying for exams.
• Thanks to Epbr123 for your enigmatic support and for your Style and prosechecklist, which looks as if it may come in handy.
• Thanks to faithless for being more levelheaded on my RfA than I was on yours.
• Thanks to FeloniousMonk for contributing your perspective to the discussion, always with the best interests of Misplaced Pages at heart.
• Thanks to Filll for the AGF Challenge: very interesting and challenging questions. I regret not having had the time to do it during the RfA, and hope to do it some time within the next few weeks.

• Thanks to Firsfron of Ronchester for providing your valuable opinion, and for giving me a laugh by calling your own username "absolutely ridiculous". Now, that's a Firs. ☺
• Thanks to Folantin for valuing neutrality highly.
• Thanks to GlassCobra for offering to nominate me. I'm sorry I couldn't include all the people who offered. Thanks for saying I remain civil in any situation. Sometimes it's easy and sometimes it is not. I do lose my temper at times, even if it might not necessarily be evident on-wiki.
• Thanks to Guettarda for making observations, thinking things over and contributing to the discussion with the interests of Misplaced Pages at heart.
• Thanks to Heimstern; I'm delighted to have your trust in me.
• Thanks to Hiberniantears for giving your perspective on the Iantresman case. Perhaps with further discussion at User talk:Raul654/Civil POV pushing the different perspectives can be reconciled. It gives me food for thought, in any case.
• Thanks to Icewedge for calling my talk page "dotted with Thank You's": I think the number of them will go up a bit when I post this! ☺
• Thanks to InDeBiz1 for your brief but sincere contribution.
• Thanks to iridescent for contributing your perspective from your own unique set of experiences.
• Thanks to Jacina for taking the time and trouble to participate.
• Thanks to Jakew, one of the editors I most highly respect even while we frequently disagree, for an extraordinarily positive support statement. I look forward to continuing collaboration and intellectually challenging discussion with you.
• Thanks to Jayjg. Your support means a lot to me. Thank you again for helping me raise my standards of civility by setting a good example for me.
• Thanks to jbmurray for observing and assessing.
• Thanks to jc37 for some excellent questions. Consensus is a complex, sensitive and fundamental process; I found that question quite challenging and enjoyed reflecting while answering it. I appreciate the reminder not to become over-confident.
• Thanks to J.delanoy. This is my message of thanks to you for participating in my RfA. (Feel free to make fun of me for stating what is as obvious as what you state on your userpage.) I certainly hope that promotion of myself to adminship would not result in a sudden increase of vandalism or trollism in the project and see no reason why it would, but thank you for contributing one of many opinions to the important process of RfA.
• Thanks to Jehochman for providing information leading to me being given the Iantresman sockpuppet evidence which I was then able to post on Iantresman's user page, and thanks for participating in my RfA.

• Thanks to Jim62sch for your contribution to the discussion, and for a very interesting userpage. I enjoyed trying to understand the quote about the Sibyl; my Greek and Latin isn't as advanced as yours. LOL re Flying spaghetti monster.
• Thanks to JodyB for taking the time to contribute your thoughts in detail.
• Thanks to EdJohnston for helping me from the beginning. It's been a pleasure to work with you on 3RR.
• Thanks to jonny-mt for contributing your insight.
• Thanks to JoshuaZ for underscoring NPOV. It's been good to focus attention on one policy for a while, reflecting on and clarifying some of the distinctions it involves; I'll continue to pay particular attention to this policy.
• Thanks to Jossi for valuing good judgement, the core policies and careful selection of admin candidates.
• Thanks to Jpmonroe for your willingness to trust me with the tools.
• Thanks to Keeper now. / You told what you think's best for / Misplaced Pages.
• Thanks to KillerChihuahua for bringing up the interesting topic of the NPOV policy. Because of thoughts that occurred to me in response to comments on this topic by you and others and because I know that I've misunderstood parts of this policy at times in the past, I've written an essay on NPOV, in the process of which my understanding has deepened; I will continue to think about it.
• Thanks to KojiDude for your temporary, underworldly, heterodox contribution.
• Thanks to Kralizec! !. Thanks for noticing some of my AN/I work. Re a message on your user page, on the contrary: I assure you, I am neither bored nor lost. Some of your userboxes are quite interesting. I'm not sure that I've personally run into a conflict between immediatism and eventualism on Misplaced Pages often enough to get a feel for which I support: some linear combination, probably. May His Hoodly Appendage touch you daily.
• Thanks to Krimpet for a more than usually unusual userpage– and for your support.
• Thanks to Lankiveil for trusting me.

• Thanks to Lar for reading and considering various comments and for providing your own contribution.
• Thanks to Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles for noting my contributions to various Wikipedian discussions. Evidently I oppose exclusionist anti-pumpkin wording as much as you. ☺
• Thanks to LessHeard vanU. I appreciated very much your support rationale about the scientific method, the fundamental idea of which you seem to understand very well.
• Thanks to Low Sea for supporting my RfA as part of the silent majority and for your very helpful, and very perceptive, comment about perceptions.
• Thanks to Lradrama for taking the time from a busy life full of many interests such as drama to share your insights on my RfA.
• Thanks to Majoreditor for looking in. Gratias tibi ago.
• Thanks to Malinaccier for having seen me around. (waves hello) ☺
• Thanks to Malleus Fatuorum for your contribution. I agree that there need to be limits to what behaviour is tolerated from users.
• Thanks to MastCell for your kind words. I was particularly curious as to what position you would take in this discussion, and I was very pleased to receive your Weak Oppose parts of which sound almost like a Support. Thank you also for replying to Realist2 about my unblock request essay. I have great respect for you and look forward to continuing to work with you even if we often have to "agree to disagree".☺
• Thanks to a certain user I've been asked not to name, for participating in my RfA. I still leave open my offer to provide help if you ask for it, for those types of help I'm reasonably able to provide, and I hope you enjoy editing Misplaced Pages and that your Wikipedian experience from now on will be relatively problem-free.
• Thanks to Adam McCormick for appreciating the work I put into Che Guevara.
• Thanks to Merkin's mum for noticing my efforts at calming disputes, and for helping at AN/I.
• Thanks to Merzul for your comments, and especially for giving me your perspective from the opposite side of the WP:ATT debate.
• Thanks to J Milburn for again re-emphasizing an area a number of editors feel I have room for improvement in.
• Thanks to Mojska for emphasizing the importance to the community of the various issues raised in the RfA.
• Thanks to Moonriddengirl for your advice; but more especially thanks for your support; but even more than that thanks for being a friend.

"I've tried the new moon tilted in the air

Above a hazy tree and farmhouse cluster

As you might try a jewel in your hair.

Robert Frost.

☺

• Thanks to MrPrada for taking the time and effort to review 1000 of my contributions as well as the whole RfA.
• Thanks to MSJapan for giving me feedback on my handling of an issue that arose on the WP:3RRN noticeboard.
• Thanks to Naerii for your ebullient preemptive support.☺
• Thanks to TheNautilus for trusting me to stop and think before taking action. I try to be careful.
• Thanks to Jitse Niesen for coming to my RfA and supporting me and for reminding me that there are all those math articles out there waiting for me to work on one of these days.
• Thanks to Natalya who apparently likes dancing as much as I do and who has refreshingly cool userpage images, for contributing your thoughts.
• Thanks to NiciVampireHeart for adding your voice to those concerned about my understanding of NPOV. I will continue to reflect on my understanding of this core policy.
• Thanks to Orangemarlin for contributing your opinion to the discussion and for your willingness to elaborate on that opinion and provide a diff.
• Thanks to Pete.Hurd for contributing your opinion. I see you've worked on Evolutionarily stable strategy; an interesting topic: maybe I'll edit that page one of these days.
• Thanks to Philosopher for your contribution and for an interesting quote about time travel on your userpage.
• Thanks to Phoenix-wiki for contributing a comment about the difference between sense and nonsense, and getting me thinking about clarifying more often whether we're talking about a debate between Wikipedians or a debate among the reliable sources.
• Thanks to Pigman for carefully weighing the pros and cons.
• Thanks to Prashanthns for recognizing that, as WP:NPOV says, "All editors and all sources have biases"
• Thanks to QuackGuru for bringing the chiropractic article to my attention again. I look forward to participating there and hope that we will reach common understandings about both content and behavioural issues.

• Thanks to Queerbubbles for visiting my RfA, and for seeing two sides like some of the other Neutral participants. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I like the name "Queerbubbles": it reminds me of blowing bubbles with soapy solution and a wand. Once I made a soap bubble with the topology of a Möbius strip. I hadn't been sure it would be possible. Now, that would be a queer bubble, wouldn't it?
• Thanks to Raul654 for closing my RfA. I appreciate your time and effort and the opportunity to receive a definitive result in a timely manner.
• Thanks to Raymond arritt for contributing your insight to my RfA and giving me a perspective which I will be thinking over carefully.

O wad some power the giftie gie us

To see oursel's as others see us (Robert Burns)

• Thanks to Razorflame for making clear which policies I still need to demonstrate an understanding of.
• Thanks to Realist2 for reconsidering in response to feedback.
• Thanks to Redthoreau for your kind words. I look forward to continuing to edit alongside you.
• Thanks to Relata refero for your careful review.
• Thanks to Rudget for being your unique self, for being here and for writing such a tremendously positive nomination that I felt that after reading that, I could survive any number of oppose votes without feeling discouraged. Thanks for looking after me by replying to selected comments, and especially for thinking of my feelings.
• Thanks to RyRy5 for having a cut-and-pastable signature, for liking my answers, for trusting me and especially for wishing me well.
• Thanks to Pat (Scarian, my friend) for encouraging me to "RfA soon". It's been an exhilarating experience.
• Thanks to Siva1979 for support from a fellow inclusionist. ☺
• Thanks to Skinwalker for clarifying two distinct areas in which I still need to demonstrate to the community a sufficiently developed level of understanding.
• Thanks to SmithBlue for a long though infrequent association and for remembering and summarizing your impressions of me.
• Thanks to Spencer for using your intuition.
• Thanks to Squeakbox for contributing your perspective and for defending my display of an unblocking advice essay.
• Thanks to Stifle for thinking I was already an admin.
• Thanks to Stormtracker94 for expressing the regretfulness of your oppose. Don't worry: I feel fine, but I appreciate your consideration for my feelings.
• Thanks to Swatjester for your good wishes.
• Thanks to SWik78 for your praise. (It's easy to talk about SWik78 because he considerately tells people on his userpage which pronoun to use.) ☺
• Thanks to Al Tally. I am "majorly" pleased to have you participate in my RfA.
• Thanks to Tiggerjay for envisioning the future and contributing your thoughts to this discussion.
• Thanks to Tim Smith. Good to see you again.
• Thanks to Tinkleheimer for having the faith to assume that Assuming Good Faith is good. ☺
• Thanks to Tiptoety for trusting me with the tools; for giving me a laugh again with the "What Misplaced Pages has become" image on your userpage, and for having a link to global account creation– I didn't know that had been implemented yet!
• Thanks to Tool2Die4 for clearly expressing what's problematic for you on this wiki.
• Thanks to Trusilver for impressive contributions to Misplaced Pages including starting the League of Copyeditors project and making an effort to participate regularly in RfA's, including mine.
• Thanks to KleenupKrew for admitting that not quite everything deserves to be deleted.

• Thanks to SheffieldSteel for thinking things over carefully, for looking at my contribs, for finding some nice things to say about me– and for adding to my collection of nicknames.
• Thanks to Vassyana. Remembering you from the WP:NOR policy debates, I was extremely pleased to receive your Strong Support.
• Thanks to Walton One for your perceptive comments in the discussion section. I agree that the interaction of editors of differing viewpoints can be an important ingredient in the crafting of a NPOV article, and I share your puzzlement as to where the idea of me being "anti-science" came from.
• Thanks to weburiedoursecretsinthegarden for your thoughtful support.
• Thanks to Wisdom89 for contributing your opinion. Maybe I'll edit vasodilator one of these days and run into you there.
• Thanks to Wizardman for including a contribution to my RfA among your 40,000+ edits.
• Thanks to Yaf for calling me "quiet and reflective". I like that.
• Thanks to Yilloslime for a contribution to my RfA from a fellow scientist.
• Thanks to Zginder for bringing up an interesting point re non-self-noms and cabalism. I think your point has considerable validity; nevertheless, there are probably also advantages on the other side; it would be interesting to participate in a community discussion on the issue. I'm sorry I didn't have time to participate in your RfA. I was incredibly busy all week, with matters arising from the RfA added to the usual responsibilities on- and off-wiki, in spite of giving RL short shrift this week.

Sincerely, Coppertwig (talk) 20:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

References

1. Robert Frost (1969) The Poetry of Robert Frost. New York, New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, Inc. ISBN0-03-049126-6 p. 245.

A brief note..

Hi, Coppertwig. While I did not find myself able to support your RfA this time around, I do commend you for taking the time to write a brief note of thanks to everyone who participated in the process, rather than pasting a generic "thank you" template-like message on each talk page. To me, that shows a good amount of maturity and/or sincerity, which I can certainly appreciate. Please keep me informed of any future RfA attempts, as I will be more than happy to reconsider you in the future. Best regards, --InDeBiz1 (talk) 23:34, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much, InDeBiz. It took a lot of time to write all those messages, but much less I'm sure than the time the participants put into the discussion, and it was satisfying to do. It made me realize how very much of peoples' time in total goes into one RfA. I feel privileged to have been the subject of such an extensive discussion and pleased with the amount of support I got: although obviously I was hoping for more or I wouldn't have started the process.

Unfortunately, per WP:CANVASS I don't think I'll be able to inform you of the date of any future RfA. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

InDeBiz1 (and everyone else), you can always just add Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Coppertwig 2 to your watchlist. :) faithless () 01:36, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, hadn't considered that yet... I've done so and look forward to it, whenever it may arise! --InDeBiz1 (talk) 03:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Some of us do try to personalize most of the messages we send. What makes Coppertwig so smart is that by posting it this way, I am certain it took fewer hours than page-by-page messaging :) -- Avi (talk) 01:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Avi. If that's the case, I don't know how people ever find the time to do it the other way!

And thanks for that watchlist idea, faithless.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Just for this, I will stay back in Misplaced Pages for an extra year! If and when I am bored and disillusioned, I will remember that there was an editor who did this! Touched indeed, Coppertwig. You are a good person. Cheers. Prashanthns (talk) 07:13, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

How kind of you to say this, Prashanthns! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to thank you to. It just goes to show what the community missed out on. Rudget (Help?) 15:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Rudget. Thanks for your support. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:16, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

RE: RfA

I think you misread my actions completely. First off, removing the !vote and placing it on the talk page was to avoid drama, not create more (and to be honest find it rather offensive to be accused of trying to create drama). Instead of leaving it on the RfA mainpage to be read and ultimatly allowing others to continue to post would only further the drama that was not meant to be there in the first place, and if I would have placed a link from the RfA mainpage to the talk page, it would have read pretty much like “To continue in the drama fest, click here” and "drama" would have only continued in the talk page. Understand that my intention, whether the candidate does not mind at all was that simply !voting for the heck of it, and stating that you may remove it is completely un-expectable. And after asking if she would remove it, I did so myself. I hoped that it would limit any more !votes like that, which can in fact hurt newer or less confident candidates. RfA is not a place to play around, or at least not in the way that user went about it. Also, understand I would never remove a !vote from an RfA, or any content for that matter, and always move it to the talk page. Tiptoety 04:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry I didn't make my message clearer. I certainly didn't intend to accuse you of trying to cause wikidrama, Tiptoety. I never thought you were trying to cause wikidrama; and you may be right– the total amount of wikidrama that did actually occur could be less than what would have occurred if you'd done as I (with hindsight) suggested. I suspect that once the vote was indented or struck out, few additional comments would have been added to it– especially if someone had posted a comment asking people to stop commenting. We'll never know unless we visit an alternate universe.

I still think it's better not to move a vote from a page without leaving a note in its place stating that the vote has been moved. However, perhaps from now on it will immediately occur to me to look at the talk page if I see that a vote seems to no longer be present on the project page, so perhaps I can be convinced that that practice is just fine. It would depend partly on how many users, as unfamiliar with the practice as I was, would not think of looking at the talk page.

Perhaps it was a mistake for me to have posted that comment on your talk page. It only added to the wikidrama and needlessly criticized you for something that's in the past anyway and therefore can't be changed. It would have been better for me to wait until I saw a general discussion somewhere about how to move votes, and put my opinion in there. I'm really very sorry for the misunderstanding, for criticizing unnecessarily and for any hard feelings caused. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I agree with you that the fact that a candidate does not mind a joke vote does not make the joke vote acceptable. I think it's fine to discourage joke votes and to have them discounted. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:28, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, please understand that the comments you made earlier on my talk were made in good faith too, and for that reason there is really no apology needed though it is greatly appreciated. I say we move on, and put this all behind us. So yes, I accept your apology. Cheers :) Tiptoety 14:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: Hello!

Thank you for the smiles, Coppertwig!Kitty53 (talk) 18:39, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Cites

Lurking, I noticed a request for citation tools. See Misplaced Pages:CITE#Tools, I use WPCite and find the Google Scholar page useful for making refs. DigitalC (talk) 03:03, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 03:06, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

my RfA - Ta!

PS: Your red smiley thingy is cute. You might want to know, in Firefox running on FreeBSD it's tiny, about the height of this: t , while in Firefox on a MacBook pro running OS X it's BIG, overlapping some into the line above. Fonts! Gwen Gale (talk) 07:50, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations again on your RfA. Thanks for the lovely image again, and thanks for the font info.

I post the smileys various sizes and colours, for variety; as I see them displayed they often push the line down, forcing a bigger interline spacing. I try not to make them so big they're disruptive, especially on busy pages. Here's one of my bigger ones: ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The Barnstar of Aqueous Service

Hi Coppertwig. Thanks a lot for the Barnstar of Aqueous Service and the very original text which you withdrew from your brain!! Kerres (Talk) 08:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL! Thanks– I had fun writing that! You deserve it. I hope to find time in the next few days to look over another of your articles. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 11:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

CSD edits

I have noticed a lot of CSD templates recently edited by you with no actual content change, but with the edit summary (Contributors to the new versions of CSD templates of March 24 were Moonriddengirl, Happy-melon, Coppertwig and Od Mishehu.) It sounds like you are claiming ownership of the templates, and if not, why did you make the 'edits'?  Asenine  19:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, dear. I guess I didn't word that very well!! What it's supposed to mean is that we took the old templates and edited them, producing new versions. The earlier editors should also be credited. The earlier editors appear in the edit summaries in the page history. I added those null edits because the contributors to the development of the new versions from the older ones didn't appear in the page history; their edits were to files such as Template:db-a7/new (which will need to be deleted, or their page histories merged; I'm planning to do something about that but haven't had time yet) the contents of which were copied and pasted to the regular templates. I was trying to make the templates conform to GFDL. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Pointer to thanks

Those who participanted in my RfA, please see Thank you for participating in my RfA. I'm going to try to keep this section at the bottom of my talk page, so please add other sections above this one, but don't worry about it too much– you can add sections below if you want and I or someone else can move this section back to the bottom again later. I expect to be on Wikibreak from approximately now until approximately May 20. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

current versions

The acceptance you see here (supp. 75 / opp. 120). regards Rauenstein (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:01, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I replied at de:Benutzer Diskussion:Rauenstein. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

How to be a Sichter

Hi CT. Thanks for correcting my statement in the thread. I'm responding here rather than there because I don't want to edit such a huge thread, and I'm afraid adding section breaks might be controversial. Your understanding is that:

1. all admins on de.wiki are Sichters,
2. anyone who has at least 200 edits can *apply* to be a Sichter,
3. anyone who has 500 edits after some date in May (plus a few other things) is automatically a Sichter
4. Sichter ability can be taken away for misuse?

I still believe your translation project (of the poll) is worthwhile. I'd care more about the comments that revealed some actual usage of the system, and (in my copious spare time) I was going to go through and look for such comments. It did appear that there has been at least one sighting edit war!

I think Rollback might be Zurücksetzen, but I'm not sure. I don't know if they have rollbackers there. Have you noticed? This picture makes zurücksetzen look like our 'undo.' EdJohnston (talk) 14:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, EdJohnston! Thanks for your comment.

"Jeder angemeldete Benutzer wird automatisch nach 60 Tagen, 500 Artikel-Bearbeitungen (Edits, vorläufig noch gezählt ab einem bestimmten Zeitpunkt im Mai 2008, später gezählt ab Benutzerregistrierung), Existenz einer Benutzerseite, bestätigter eMail-Adresse und leerem Sperrlog zum „Sichter“. Stimmberechtigte Benutzer (d. h. bereits ab 200 Artikel-Bearbeitungen) können auch hier das Recht auf Sichtung beantragen." (from de:Hilfe:Gesichtete und geprüfte Versionen#Wer kann sichten?)

Apparently Stimmberechtig means 200 edits and 2 months. Other than that I think what you're saying is correct. I don't know about taking away Sichter status but I suppose that's how it works.

Sighting edit war? Does that mean that a sighted edit can be marked as unsighted again? (unlike new page patrol.)

I seem to have posted way too many comments at the flagged revisions discussion -- so my actual proposal is hidden in there somewhere. I'll try to hold back and not post anything else except more translation. I posted in German at de:Benutzer Diskussion:Rauenstein and de:Misplaced Pages Diskussion:Umfragen/Akzeptanz des neuen Verfahrens «Gesichtete und geprüfte Versionen»#übersetzen auf Englisch.

Thanks for saying the translation is worthwhile. It's just as easy (or difficult) for me to translate as to just read the discussion: I have to look up many words anyway. I'm curious about what they say, especially the opposes. Besides, it's fun using my German.

By the way, I'm trying to keep up with the discussion at Talk:Chiropractic, plus some other things such as this Flagged Revisions stuff, so I might not have time for 3RR. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi there,

1. not all admins on de are Sichter
2. sighted (gesichtete) articles can be marked as unsighted (ungesichtet)
3. sighting edit war exists, look at this ("entfernte eine Markierung von" means: has unsighted the article)

If you have further questions, feel free to ask... —YourEyesOnly (talk) 03:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Cite button

Hi Coppertwig,

I totally forgot about your comment on my talk page regarding the cite button. Do you require any more help or is it resolved? Cheers. CorticoSpinal (talk) 16:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC) Addendum: I know there is a lot to review on the talk page at Chiropractic, but I personally feel a defining thread of the dysfunction at that article is this one. Any comments, criticisms, insights, suggestions would be appreciated. Feel free to pass on the link to neutral editors who might be able to help us resolve this particular dispute. CorticoSpinal (talk) 17:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello, CorticoSpinal! ☺ Thanks for your message. Don't worry about the cite button: DigitalC replied to me above at User talk:Coppertwig#Cites, so I think I'm all set. I'm afraid I'm a couple of days behind on Chiropractic but hope to catch up in the next day or two; I'll look at that thread you're mentioning. Coppertwig (talk) 23:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

If the chiropractic article is declared fringe, we will edit accordingly. See WP:PARITY. QuackGuru 02:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the comment you left at my talk page has come into surprisingly quick fruition. Interesting timing too, just as the landmark RfC:chiropractic=fringe is getting underway. Looks like an attempt to muzzle me (and my arguments re: civil POV push Ernst and chiropractic is fringe). Hopefully the admins will see through this ploy and consider the context and timing of such an ANI. Any comments would be appreciated. Cheers. CorticoSpinal (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

RfC - Chiropractic

Hi Coppertwig. I noticed that you recently made a comment about WP:FRINGE on Talk:Chiropractic. There is a new RfC on whether it (the entire article) is Fringe. Perhaps you want to move your comment to there? Talk:Chiropractic#Challenge. Cheers, DigitalC (talk) 04:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I saw that shortly after I'd posted my comment. Probably too late to move it now. Thanks for the idea, though. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the discussion about whether chiropractic is fringe would not change article content. If we decided chiropractic is all fringe or decided chiropractic is not fringe at all, what would be the difference in article content. Problably nothing. We write according to what the sources tell us. Not whether we think it is fringe or not. QuackGuru 18:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:26, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The discussion about fringe seems to be irrelevant. Some editors want to include or exclude source based on fringe. Some editors will even say Ernst, a leading researcher, is fringe. However, we have WP:MEDRS guidelines. For example, take a look at the cost-benefit section. I wrote the entire cost-benefit section in accordance with WP:MEDRS. The section relies highly on reviews and not primary sources. But to fill in the blanks where reviews were not available on a specific topic (example: health care costs (PMID 15477432) is covered using a primary source), I used some primary studies to balance out the section. QuackGuru 18:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Your note

Hi CT, thank you for your kind note, which has made me very happy. I accept your apology of course, although there's no need for it. I understand how hard it can be to find the right words to mend fences when there has been a complex dispute about policy or content. The important thing is that we all intended to benefit the project; we just disagreed on how best to do it, and that's the nature of Misplaced Pages. I also owe you an apology for not finding a more constructive way to work with you, and for being too abrasive about criticisms of the proposal. The abrasiveness is something I'm working hard on to reduce.

I very much hope we can work well together in future, whether on policy or elsewhere. Again, thank you for reaching out. SlimVirgin 19:56, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that's great! I didn't know anything I could say could make you very happy, or I would have said something earlier. I'm so glad to have worked things out that I've added to this talk page a bouncing ball (which I've had previously, but I see you also have one somewhere on your talk page), and an "ignore all rules" banner (which I put up temporarily from time to time, when I feel like it) and a happy face at the top. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Gesichtete Versionen, de-WP

Hi Coppertwig, you asked here for a conclusion of the discussion. I tried to do it here, see No. 128 – perhaps it will be interesting for you. Unfortunately my english is to bad for a translation. Greetings from Berlin --Lienhard Schulz (talk) 09:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Template:Db-u1

At some point, you and a few others standardized these templates, which broke {{db-u1}}. It should require a rationale parameter when used on User_talk: pages. Please fix it. Thanks. --MZMcBride (talk) 06:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I'll look into it. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Gesichtete Versionen 2

Hi CT.

1. I like your idea of 'more stable reversion points'. This seems like a low-weight change. Allow people to set their preferences so that they see the stable points rather than the current version, if they prefer to do so.
2. The de.wiki discussion is full of complaints from editors who were disenfranchised when sighting was introduced. We might avoid this by 'grandfathering' existing editors, with a low cutoff like 100 edits. Then over time, the threshold for sighting might creep up to 500. Nobody who qualified originally would have sighting taken away, but new accounts would see a gradually-increasing threshold.

What do you think? EdJohnston (talk) 01:37, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Ed! Nice to hear from you. I'm not sure what you mean by "more stable reversion points": I don't remember using that phrase. Do you mean allowing people to set the deafult in their preferences as to whether they see the current version or the last sighted version?

One interesting idea I got from translating the German discussion is the idea that people could use a "Cookie" to set their preferences, even without logging in. I assume that's technically possible; I'm not sure if it's against wiki philosophy or anything. It sounds like a great idea to me. I think the person viewing the page should be in control of what they see. To avoid the ruckus at the German Misplaced Pages, though, at least at first the default default should be the current version.

Grandfathering existing editors may avoid a lot of complaints when it's introduced, (though you might get very loud complaints from those who had, say, 80 edits at the time it was introduced), but won't solve the fundamental problem. If people feel that not being a sighter feels like not being allowed to edit, then there will be fewer new editors joining in. Why should people do 500 edits that are no fun to do? They don't even know what it feels like to do real, visible edits so why should they do all that work to gain the dubious privilege? Grandparenting existing editors but shutting out the rest of the world would not be good wiki-strategy.

Another strategy: allow autoconfirmed to sight edits, but require 2 sighters in addition to the original editor. Those with, say, 200 edits and a clear block log could sight by themselves, i.e. one such sighter in addition to the original editor. And then admins (and maybe rollbackers) could automatically sight their own edits. I predict that if people are allowed to sight edits, then even though their own edits may not be immediately sighted, they won't feel like second-class citizens. Besides, if there are lots of sighters, then edits may get sighted quickly.

I've been thinking. I haven't quite come to conclusions, but I've been thinking.

From the point of view of someone browsing the encyclopedia, almost all articles have the sighted version equal to the current version (I predict, and is the case at de.wiki IME for articles except those that have never been sighted at all.) So for the reader, it makes little difference which version is presented as default.

But from the point of view of the editor, they want to see their edit displayed immediately. So to them, it does make a huge difference which is displayed. I mean, if you edit 5 articles, and try to view each one a minute after editing, you're probably going to see the wrong version almost every time.

So, why not display what the editor wants, then?

But on the other hand, for fighting vandalism: even if vandalism is very rare, when it does happen it can potentially have huge effects, such as leading a parent to never allow their child to read Misplaced Pages.

So maybe displaying the sighted version as default could be a good option even if it rarely makes any difference to the reader.

But on the first hand again: maybe for the vandal-fighting it's good enough to display the current version, and the red exclamation marks in the watchlists will help reduce vandalism below what it is now, which is already not bad.

And prudish parents could set their kids' preferences to see the sighted version.

Anyway, there are supposed to eventually be several levels of flagged revisions. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Do you have any ideas why non-sighters are so upset on de.wiki? Don't they have their preferences set to display the latest, not the last sighted? So from one day to the next, doesn't it look to them that they are editing the real Misplaced Pages? And I agree with you that during the trial period, we could choose the default to be the latest version even for readers, to avoid complaints. EdJohnston (talk) 02:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, one of the German comments (that I translated?) was that at first, the person thought they were still editing the real encyclopedia: since they saw the most current version, they just ignored the whole sighted version feature and kept editing. But then later they realized that most readers weren't seeing their edits, and they felt cheated. They felt as if they hadn't been editing the real encyclopedia all that time, and had been given the illusion that they had been.

I imagine that part of it is the distinction between the classes of users. I mean, I'm suggesting that if everybody is equal, then people may not mind even if their edits aren't immediately visible.

Actually, I share your puzzlement. They're talking as if their edits aren't visible or they aren't really editing, when anyone can see the edits by clicking on "zu aktuellen Version".

I don't really get why it's so important to them that their changes be visible immediately. But I think it's a sense of powerlessness: they have no idea whether their edits will be sighted in a few minutes, a few hours, or weeks or months, and they can't do anything about it. They don't get the sense of satisfaction of seeing their work finished.

Huh. I wonder if it would help if people could somehow ask to be automatically notified when their edits are sighted. Maybe via a watchlist feature. Otherwise, do they have to keep going back to the article or a log or something to check? And if they check several times and it hasn't been sighted yet, they could feel powerless and frustrated. But if they're automatically notified, then they could not worry about checking until they get the notification, and then they would feel good. (As opposed to without the notification, when if they do check and see that it's already been sighted, they may feel frustrated that they hadn't checked at an earlier time.)

Maybe if I translate more comments we'll get a better idea.

I think the current version should be the default, not only during a trial period but longer than that. Later when we're comfortable with the whole thing we might consider changing that, or changing it for some articles. It would not make sense to do one thing during the trial period, have people approve of it, and then spring something else on people, something that's been complained about so much on the German Misplaced Pages.

Actually, I was thinking of proposing something like this: the initial proposal would allow articles which were fully-protected before implementation to have their default version set to be the sighted version, but no other articles could be set that way unless there's another huge poll. (That way, Jimbo might get his wish of having the Main Page unrotected – which would really help in the new-user department, I think, since it's really confusing having an encyclopedia that anyone can edit that nobody can edit.) ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, limiting the sightable articles would be good, though picking just the ones under full protection sounds scary. You'd be piloting flagged revisions in the very places where the most painful conflicts tend to arise. See Category:Protected due to dispute just for an idea. What about that suggestion to start applying sighted versions on articles nominated for Good Article status? There would be better feelings there, and probably a lot of editors helping out. EdJohnston (talk) 14:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstood: I never intended to suggest implementing sighted versions on only some articles. I would like to see it implemented on all articles. I was just talking about which version would be displayed as the default default. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Neuer Überschrift

Hi CT. I'm not sure that is one of the technical options in the software that now exists. I thought that the decision to show the latest rather than the sighted had to be chosen globally for each Misplaced Pages. Since you're rather technical, take a look at and see if you can find an option that matches what you have in mind. Requiring more than one person to sight an edit (as you have proposed) also sounds like a challenging enhancement. The system would have to remember that some versions have one vote for sighting, but not yet two. EdJohnston (talk) 23:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I looked. You're probably right: it probably can't be done per-page, either implementing flagged revisions only for some pages, or setting the default default display. With this version of the software, anyway, apparently. Oh, well. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

You know you're a Wikipediholic when ...

It happened more than once.

I was riding my bicycle, and turned my head to the left to look for traffic coming from behind me. Well, there's this bright orangish-yellow line down the middle of the road.

For an instant, I thought I was seeing my "you have new messages" banner.

Come on, people– send me more messages. I try writing messages to myself, but it doesn't work: the banner doesn't appear.

(Although I admit I've been busy recently and haven't responded promptly to some messages– I'll get to them soon.) ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 10:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a little scary, I'm afraid. :O I thought wikilinking e-mails was bad. ;) --Moonriddengirl 13:31, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

LOL! ☺ Then there was the time I got up at 3AM and started editing, and clicking around, and found the "Are you a Wikipediholic?" questionnaire which had something like 767 questions. There was the question something like "Do you eat with one hand on your plate and one hand on the keyboard? ... Do you eat with one foot on your plate and both hands on the keyboard?" As someone who was up at 3AM I was killing myself laughing. It was too close to the truth. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 13:43, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I think my experience on Misplaced Pages has influenced me to be friendlier in traffic situations. There's the POV thing: "Probably from that person's POV, the way they're handling this traffic situation is correct." There's the volunteering thing: if someone makes me wait a few seconds, I figure that what I would be using that time for is to edit Misplaced Pages, the purpose of which is to help people, so why shouldn't I help that person right now by smiling at them instead of getting mad at them for making me wait? And there's the consensus thing: if I see someone riding a bicycle on the sidewalk, rather than criticizing them I'll think "There's no consensus that it's dangerous to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk in that specific situation." ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:33, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The ultimate wikipedian answers themselves on their own talk page ;-) I've done that several times. Once I've pushed the button, I answer my own question, so I go ahead and answer it. Good to see I'm not the only weird one :-D -- Dēmatt (chat) 15:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

And again...

You write: "Here, the topic is male circumcision. A Misplaced Pages article has no obligation to explore all topics that relate to all definitions of a word." But an article does have an obligation to have its title reflect its topic non-ambiguously: WP:TITLE states, Please, do not write or put an article on a page with an ambiguously named title as though that title had no other meanings. Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions_(precision) states, This page in a nutshell: Be precise when necessary; don't title articles ambiguously when the title has other meanings. The incredibly strong resistance to renaming circumcision (i.e., the article which discusses male circumcision titled by a word that could apply to males and females) to male circumcision is based on circumcision advocacy, not policy or guideline. Blackworm (talk) 15:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your message! I'm fine with renaming it, but I don't think it makes sense to change the content to focus around a differently centred topic. I think the thing about ambiguous titles is more complicated: if there's a book named "The Orange Tree" you can have a page named that, and only when someone wants to write another page about a film by the same name do you make one of them "The Orange Tree (film)" or whatever. So I think that rule about not being ambiguous is not absolute. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Coppertwig, if you're fine with renaming it, why not express your support for that suggestion on Talk:Circumcision? Regarding "The Orange Tree," I don't accept the analogy as valid. I couldn't write an article about female circumcision if I wanted to -- editors would insist it must be under the female genital cutting article. This, despite the fact that reliable sources state the two things are not the same. I don't see your opinion above about the WP:TITLE official policy being "not absolute" as valid without invoking WP:IAR. If you can cite policy refuting or weakening WP:TITLE that you believe justifies our waving it away in this instance, please cite it. As I've said, clearly Jakew's misinterpretation of WP:UCN guideline is invalid, not holding up to WP:TITLE and WP:NPOV policies. If WP:IAR is what the people insisting on the non-neutral POV in the title and organization of circumcision and circumcision-related articles ultimately rest on, I want to please hear it specifically, so I can stop attempting to convince people that my opinion on this matter is firmly grounded in policy (as it would be irrelevant in that case). Blackworm (talk) 04:56, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:Circumcision#Nameing Conventions.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Chiro

Wow, you're the first one I know ever read that FAQ. Glad to help on chiro where I can without knowing the subject (: ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 03:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Task force recruitment

Hi, I'm commenting here because I remember your work on adding the "pregnancy rate" wording to Template:Infobox Birth control, and on the birth control article. I've proposed a task force to provide a discussion place for articles on methods of birth control, and was hoping you would be interested in joining. If you're interested, please add your name to the proposal: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine/Task forces#Reproductive medicine. Lyrl _C 00:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:RSUE

You may be interested in this proposal to revise the text for articles using non-English sources. --ROGER DAVIES  04:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay in reply. Absolutely no offence taken :) All the best, --ROGER DAVIES  19:37, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

SMT

I don't understand this. While SMT is generic, and Adjustments are the chiropractic version of SMT, no chiropractor worthy of the name doesn't use it. The profession is defined by their use of it, and are legally limited and required in many states and by Medicare to use Adjustments for the "correction of vertebral subluxations" in order to get paid at all! (That legalizes a fiction, which has a very interesting history. A trap was laid for chiropractic by the AMA, and an ignorant Congress unfortunately took the bait and legalized a fiction. The story was told to Stephen Barrett by the AMA player himself. The AMA's trap ended up backfiring.) You can read it here.

You may wish to avoid giving SMT/Adjustments too much coverage in the chiropractic article, but that doesn't make it necessary to deny the dominating role of SMT in chiropractic. The coverage should just be done in the Spinal manipulation and Spinal adjustment articles. The chiropractic article can still mention and give plenty of weight to SMT/Adjustments, but shouldn't waste space on details and research. That belongs in the respective articles. -- Fyslee / talk 05:10, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not denying it; I'm just saying I don't know. Dematt says activator technique etc. don't count as SMT. I tried some web searches and didn't find clarification on that. As far as I know we don't have any sources stating whether activator, Cox method, manual adjustment etc. count as forms of SMT or whether SMT is a specific treatment possibly used only by a minority of chiropractors. The Misplaced Pages articles are not very clear as to whether spinal manipulation is a subset of spinal adjustment or the other way around etc. and I haven't seen sources clarifying these things. I haven't seen sources stating that the majority of chiropractors use SMT. I haven't read most of the sources cited in the article, though. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 05:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Spinal manipulation (SMT) is a subset of spinal adjustments (chiropractors use SMT as well as other "adjustments"), and treatments using the Activator, as well as Cox and manual adjustments are all billed as "adjustments" by chiropractors. True SMT (IOW not Activator, which moves nothing) always involves real movements of the joints, the most common technique used being variations of High Velocity, Low Amplitude (HVLA) thrust. These can be general (over several joints) or specifically applied to single joints in very specific directions. SMT is generic and used by DCs, PTs, DOs, and MDs, and predates chiropractic. I'm a PT and have been trained in these techniques, besides studying the subject and history of chiropractic for many years (as a skeptic). -- Fyslee / talk 06:14, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, so according to you, SMT is only a subset of the spinal adjustments chiropractors do. Unless we find out what fraction of chiropractic patients experience SMT, we don't know how relevant SMT is to chiropractic.

You say that the activator moves nothing. I disagree. It delivers an impulse to the spine. According to the laws of physics this implies forces within the spine, therefore at least some deformation in the spine; and since the spine is not rigid like a brick wall but has flexible parts, a perpendicular force is going to cause some perceptible movement. We can also infer from patient satisfaction studies and other studies that it has an effect. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly enough, which is a distinct possibility! SMT (spinal manipulation) is experienced by practically all chiropractic patients at each visit. Any chiropractor can confirm this. Chiropractors are educated to do so, "otherwise you will have to waste time explaining why you didn't do it." It is their core technique, and they generally won't get paid by Medicare if they don't do it. The profession is based upon it and wouldn't exist without it. State and federal laws define chiroractic by its use of spinal adjustments, and by their philosophical reasons for doing so "to correct vertebral subluxations." It is a rare exception for a patient not to receive some form of spinal adjustment at any given treatment. Of course there are exceptional DCs who might not do it every time, but they are exceptional!

As far as the Activator goes, well, when the Activator is adjusted to give it's strongest tap, it can be felt, but there is no evidence it moves the spine enough to do anything therapeutically speaking. It might be possible to measure some slight, but very weak, vibration. It's like snapping your finger against a pillow and expecting a soccer ball touching the other side to move. The evidence just isn't there, nor is the anatomy. The structures are just too deep. It takes much more to affect the spine. As far as patient satisfaction goes, there are many other explanations for why patients believe and are satisfied with such care. -- Fyslee / talk 06:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

There may be a shortage of published evidence about the activator, but I'm not convinced that it doesn't move the spine or that it has no therapeutic effect, whether set at a moderate or its strongest setting; you imply that it can only be felt when set at its strongest setting and I'm not convinced of that either. The anatomy seems clear to me: a row of rigid bones joined by less rigid structures: when pushed, they will move. There's no particular reason why we should assume that it's necessarily the other explanations, rather than a direct on the spine, that leads to patient satisfaction; there are studies showing benefit, including controlled studies as well as clinical studies.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Do you consider the activator technique to be a form of SMT, Fyslee? Are you talking about the Medicare situation in the U.S., and do chiropractors get paid by Medicare in the U.S. if they use only the activator technique? I believe there are many chiropractors who use the activator as their usual treatment method. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

No, the Activator can also be felt on the skin at the lower settings. It's just that it takes the higher settings to give a good "tap". Since the spinous processes are covered by skin, fat, and other tissue, that tap (if applied directly over one, which isn't always the case) gets diffused into the tissues and not much but vibration will go much further at all, and certainly not have any significant effect on deeper spinous tissues like intervertebral discs or spinal nerves. There is no scientifically proven therapeutic effect known and accepted by mainstream biomedical science. If good research of such effects exists, I'd like to see the PubMed references.

I don't consider the Activator a legitimate form of SMT since it doesn't produce the claimed effects. Even the Canadian chiro association I mentioned considered it undocumented and unscientific quackery. I'm pretty sure that myriad American chiropractors get paid by Medicare when using the Activator, but without Medicare realizing that it is the Activator, and not legitimate hand performed SMT that was being used. According to Medicare laws and many state laws, such billing is improper. Many states and (at least originally) Medicare only pay for "adjustments" performed by hand, not by instruments. Maybe things have changed recently. -- Fyslee / talk 04:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I like your contributions to the chiropractic page, some of which I agree with and some of which perhaps I don't; but I respectfully disagree with some of what you're saying here. You say "certainly not have any significant effect": I don't see how that could possibly be proven. You say "There is no scientifically proven therapeutic effect known and accepted by mainstream biomedical science." That may well be. However, there may be some individuals who are validly convinced of benefits as a result of having experienced things like their pain disappearing at the moment of adjustment; if this happens on a number of occasions it can be statistically significant and convincing to the individual, who naturally applies some intuitive approximation of statistics, although it would tend to be difficult to measure and record in such a way as to be convincing to the scientific community. Practitioners observing such reactions in their patients may also be validly convinced without necessarily having publication-quality data. Re Medicare: "It was a real struggle, but we obtained a letter from Medicare qualifying the Activator instrument." (Alan Fuhr, Dynamic Chiropractic, Dec 17, 2005 according to this web page: ). Coppertwig (talk) 22:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the article link. That was news to me, and probably to many others. It is still considered a quack device by some chiros and all chiroskeptics. I see it comes from DC, which is an advertising rag, but a significant one in chiropractic. We have just been discussing it at the chiropractic talk page. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, as it involves just how far we are willing to allow anecdotal evidence to be used to justify treatment. That's a long and tiring philosophical, moral, and legal discussion, and I just don't have the inclination to get involved in it at this time. If I run across anything relevant, I might pop back in here. Thanks for your interest and your good help in putting out fires and keeping us on track. -- Fyslee / talk 23:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

reference improvements

I explained on the talk page to fix the references first by using the properly formatted ref from draft 7 but you ignored what I wrote on the talk page. You removed a ref from the sentence "In the U.S., chiropractic schools are accredited through the Council on Chiropractic Education (CCE)." You also removed a direct link to CCE-I and replaced it with a link an earthlink page. You edit was blindly replacing the correct version of the refs and dumping in the wrongly formatted ref from version 8. I fixed the publisher with the ref. publisher=Federation of Chiropractic Licensing Boards The publisher was removed from more than one ref. I made some general fixes and ref improvements. QuackGuru 18:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for checking my work, QuackGuru. At least one person had said there were too many refs, and I didn't see any discussion asking to include any specific refs that weren't in draft 8. I guess I removed 3 refs; I'm sorry that when I wrote the edit summary, I forgot that and gave the impression I was only removing one. I saw that you had suggested using draft 7, and I went through a diff of draft 7, checking the refs as well as the text, and using both draft 7 and draft 8 to try to form complete versions of the refs, also adding some information from the web pages of the refs; however, apparently I made a number of mistakes, and I'm glad you caught them. I just checked over my diff just now and as far as I can tell, you caught all my mistakes: well done, and sorry to have made work for you. I had put "Greeley, CO" into the wrong ref by mistake, for example. "curricula" was not a typo but is a correct plural form of curriculum; "curriculums" also exists but sounds wrong to me and has far fewer Google hits than "curricula".☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:58, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Warning on my talk page

Please have the book (Magnum Crimen) in your hands and join to discussion on the talk pages--72.75.24.245 (talk) 12:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Che Guevara

The request to explain. Mister anarchist has achieved the, i.e. that that the fact, mismatching its representation about Guevara, are cleaned. Though they have been supplied by authoritative sources, and cleaning authoritative sources, how much I know, contradicts rules of Vicipedia. What should be my actions that them to restore? Sfrandzi (talk) 18:48, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for helping to edit Che Guevara.

I suggest you put a message on Talk:Che Guevara, talking about the edits you want to put in: tell what you want to say in the article and why you think the article would be better with that information. I suggest waiting a few days for comments and discussion. If the people discussing it on the talk page agree that the edits are good, then you can put them in. Maybe people will want to change them. I might say something too. I haven't had time to look at the edits carefully yet. Maybe people will keep some parts of your edits and not other parts.

Not all material from authoritative sources can stay in articles. We choose the material so that the article follows the policies WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, etc. For example, sometimes adding material will violate WP:UNDUE.

If you edit an article and someone reverts your edit, I think it's a good idea to make the next step a post on the talk page, explaining why you think your edit is good. You can wait for comments from other editors. It usually helps to get more people talking about it. You can sometimes get more people just by waiting. You can get more people by putting a message at WP:3O, WP:RfC, or Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Biography etc. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I and have acted. If you have time and desire - I would ask you to look, express the opinion yes by the way to correct my English☺ Sfrandzi (talk) 20:11, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Please, glance once again on page of discussion Che Guevara. As it seems there will reach a consensus on all sources, except for one. It is the important primary source to which refers Farber. Farber is accepted by my opponent as unconditional authoritative source. And nevertheless the opponent insists on inadmissibility of citing of this source. As it seems, in this dispute both of us motivate our political views. Therefore it would be good, if absolutely extraneous person has interfered with it's moot point. Besides if to you it is not difficult - ..... And, during coordination I has strongly changed the text, and the grammar again requires improvement :) Sfrandzi (talk) 12:12, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've been looking at the discussion and reading some of the references, and I will write some comments soon. I've edited the Che Guevara article before and I have a small number of books about Che Guevara. Thank you for waiting. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:15, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Cool RfA thanks

That has got to be one of the coolest RfA thanks that I've seen! I'm sure everyone appreciate the personal touches that you put into it. -- Natalya 21:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)]

Thanks -- and thanks again for your contribution to my RfA! Much appreciated. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:25, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

For the good info and links...lord knows I need all the help i can get ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ParrotBSD (talk • contribs) 18:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

RE: Saad Hariri

Coppertwig, Hiram111 removes heavily sourced large criticism sections he doesn't like. He calls them "unreferenced" in his edit summaries. I don't go around Misplaced Pages removing criticism sections I don't like in articles about politicians I support because that would be disruptive and in violation of policies. How can anyone consider what he's doing anything less than disruptive vandalism? GreenEcho (talk) 18:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I've replied at Talk:Saad Hariri. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:21, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Coppertwig for your message actually the issue is turning into and edit war between me and the User:GreenEcho and this user is taking it personal because of other disputes between me and him.

So he will not "assume good will" concerning my edits and will engage in Edit warring as he did previously and taking this to the “notice board” might increase his hostility, I hope as a more experienced “Third Party” you will asses if his edits should be reverted concerning Walid Jumblatt and I’m sorry for any inconvenience but this issue had been going for days.

I discussed the controversial edits that violates WP:living policy on the Article's talk page. Hiram111 (talk) 23:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your message. I'll look at that article. Please note the instructions at the top of my talk page re criticisms of other editors (which I just edited, but it's the same idea). Also please note the WP:CANVASS guideline. (Sorry, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned WP:CANVASS here._{00:40, 10 July 2008 (UTC)}) ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps of interest to you.

Hi Coppertwig. I think I remember you asking about sources that clearly consider the topic of circumcision to be inclusive of male circumcision and female circumcision (forgive me, I don't recall your exact words). Would it be alright if I start posting them here as I run into them again? I'll begin with this one. If this isn't of any interest, let me know and I'll stop posting to this section with links. Blackworm (talk) 09:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I did ask something like that, and feel free to post such references here if you like, but I don't think that one is what I'm looking for (or else you would have to tell me which part of the article you're talking about). Something that says something about male circumcision, then the word "and", then something about female circumcision in the same sentence is treating them as two concepts, not one, in my opinion. You did have at least one or two other references that treated them as one concept. Even if there are a number of such references, they might be enough for a page on male and female circumcision, but not, in my opinion, enough to make that page sufficiently important that readers typing "circumcision" should be redirected there. Peace. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 12:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

What else would "a page on male and female circumcision" be called, other than "circumcision?" Very confusing. I don't see "male masturbation" and "female masturbation" as two concepts separate from an ambiguous concept of "masturbation," to be treated in different articles, even though masturbation procedures are necessarily not the same for both sexes. I don't see why anyone feel that way replacing "masturbation" with "circumcision," given that plenty of sources exist that are gender-inclusive in the discussion of the topic of circumcision. If the "masturbation" article described only male masturbation, with "female masturbation" treated as some separate concept and forked off in the hatnote (possibly linking to an article called something different, like female genital self-stimulation), I'm sure the non-neutrality would be clear to most. I feel like the same thing is going on in these articles, with the only exception being that some more specialized sources seem to presently equate circumcision and male circumcision. Most probably, however, circumcision (which in many tribes is per-formed on both sexes) was connected with marriage, and was a preparation for connubium. (Encyclopedia Brittanica, 1911 ). In which article could the following sentence go, given the current organization: Encyclopedia Britannica (1911) states that circumcision is performed on both sexes in many tribes. It can't go anywhere, because we begin the discussion of circumcision by asserting that no such singular concept exists. We deny the possibility that the source is correct with our definition of "circumcision," (and implicit assertion that circumcision of females is really a misnomer, better described as "female genital cutting"). Thus, the inclusion of the above sentence anywhere in circumcision-related articles, despite being obviously well summarized, attributed, and sourced, creates a logical contradiction. (I believe the E.B.1911 actually contradicts itself, perhaps reflecting the confusion between definition/description, since its definition of circumcision initially also seems exclusive to males.) Blackworm (talk) 19:15, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

A page could be called "Circumcision (general)" or "The general concept of circumcision" or "Circumcision (human)" or "Circumcision (male and female)" or "Circumcision in society" or other things. Perhaps those sentences could go in one of the existing articles, and perhaps they couldn't go anywhere. Perhaps the information in those sentences could be rewritten into separate sentences emphasizing male or female, and written into the existing articles. The existence of some sentences that can't go anywhere isn't an imperative that we must change the article structure. Only if they represented a significant amount of important (notable) encyclopedic information would it be necessary to change the structure: although if different arrangements are being compared, even a small amount of such information should be considered as a factor. Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Unacceptable editing of others' comments.

Coppertwig, I do not authorize you or anyone to edit my posts, and I'm greatly disturbed by your sudden adoption of User:Jayjg's new initiative in editing the discussion posts of others on Talk:Circumcision. WP:CIVIL states: Only in the most serious of circumstances should an editor replace or edit a comment made by another editor. Only in the event of something that can cause actual damage in the real world should this be the first step . Blackworm (talk) 21:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Many thanks for the welcome; I'm afraid I don't have the time to really return. But I keep an eye on what happens here, and was sad to see things getting if anything worse. All the very best.Gleng (talk) 08:08, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

References section problem

At the end of this section I have a references section with code. Somehow it isn't working. Can you figure it out? -- Fyslee / talk 16:28, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Hah! Are you clairvoyant or what?! ☺ I was just already in the middle of trying to figure it out when I got your message! I think it's some code in the page somewhere above the reflist template; I'm trying to narrow down where. Coppertwig (talk) 16:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I suspect you're right (about the placement of the problem, not the "clairvoyant" part ;-). Sometimes I can figure such things out, but other times I can't, simply because I'm not a coding expert. Thanks for trying, because it should be working. -- Fyslee / talk 17:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem is the Reflist template itself, I believe. I'm trying to fix it, and don't understand why I can't get it to work consistently. Meanwhile, always supplying either colwidth= or a first parameter (which is interpreted as number of columns) will work. colwidth= is better, because the number of columns changes depending on the width of the window someone is viewing the page in. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 17:30, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Or, apparently, it will work if you just put {{Reflist|}}, i.e. if you put a pipe, even if there are no parameters after it. See also Template talk:Reflist#Multiple template bug. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:06, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Matt Lewis...

Matt Lewis posted the following message at User talk:Coppertwig/Archive 7#British Isles:

He took the time to falsely slur someone, Coppertwig - don't thank him for it. --Matt Lewis (talk) 22:04, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Please don't add messages to my talk page archives. You're welcome to add messages here on this talk page; however, please follow the procedures at the top of this page regarding the posting of information critical of other editors. I don't know what you're talking about. If you wish to clarify, please follow the procedures at the top of this page. I'm free to thank someone if I choose to do so. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't expect this... In explantation, Wotapalava leaves a trial around about me - bringing in my name as if I'm a troll (even when I'm not the subject of conversation). I have only had the one recent block (I had an earlier one - brought about by Wotapalava himself - that was quickly removed by admins after reconsidering of the facts). The block I had after was because an admin simply followed these kind of tracks that are laid after me: I can't afford to let that happen again. These pages are stored in Google, and I've started using Google to find things, as others do too. I have a right to respond to a slur about me like this one. People are fooled by it - after all, what did you do? You thanked him for his 'update'! Maybe you were being polite, but you allowed his slur. If you have a right to do that, then I should have a right to respond. I'm doing it now, as he made his comment after I retired in complaint of my block, and you archived it. I have returned after taking a month off.

I don't wish to see things stirred up here (I'm sure Wotatpolava would not respond to the archive - he hasn't to the other corrects I'm made in live Talks in the past) - so I'd be obliged if you would replace (or allow me to revise) the comment that clears my name, and perhaps remove this section, which looks a little inflammatory (I thought you would either remove my comment to the archive, or leave it in - I didn't expect this). At very least, re-label this section "Matt Lewis.." so it is not "British Isles" (which is a very contentious subject, and this matter is not specifically about that). I'd be very much obliged, regards, --Matt Lewis (talk) 23:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Please don't post information critical of another user on this talk page; please follow the requested instructions at the top of this talk page. I changed the section heading here. I'll reply further on your talk page. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:44, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

OK. In case you find it too involved, I'd be happy if you just inserted the line "Matt Lewis wished to say he was only blocked once, is contesting it, and is not the kind editor Wotapalava claims that he is". Thinking about it - I should have just asked you to do that instead of editing myself, but it didn't occur to me at the time, unfortunately. Because of this, I've actually made the decision to get my block looked at again 'in retrospect' (or whatever the term is - I initially resigned instead of contesting it) - I think I'm allowed to do it, and it would be a weight off my back now I've decided to return. --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I was starting to write a reply on your talk page and got distracted– sorry. I think you left out the word "of" after "kind"– is that right? How about changing to pluperfect tense: "Matt Lewis wished to say he had only been blocked once, is contesting it, and is not the kind of editor Wotapalava claims that he is". If you agree with that I think I'll be willing to edit it into the archive; I'd rather do it myself. Thank you for not writing anything critical of other editors in the above message. I'm sorry, but I have a strong tendency not to delete comments from my talk page. If you have a good argument why this thread or part of it should be removed, feel free to tell me and I'll consider it; if it contains information critical of other editors please remember to put that information elsewhere, e.g. your talk page, and you can put a link from here to there if you like. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:34, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes "kind of"! Not the best word to miss out! I'd really appreciate it if you did that (add the line you suggested), and apologise for not asking you to do it. I rashly gave an edit a shot while I was still angry after reading it. I could kick myself actually - asking you was obviously the right and polite way to go, but I guess I'm still a bit raw, despite the month break I gave myself. I guess I just have to find some kind of closure with that block via the admins, then I can do some archiving myself, and properly move on. Regards, --Matt Lewis (talk) 00:51, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

No problem. It's all fine. I did the edit. Good luck to you. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:17, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:54, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

infoboxes

Thanks for helping me out on the jake's usertalk page. But I wasn't quite understanding the loading part. I started a "Template: Infobox XXX" and was editing it, but the stuff wasn't coming out. Then I tried the documentation, I didn't understand what to install in there.

I was wondering if it's possible, perhaps, that I create the infobox and in the Template: Infobox XXX format and then can you install it on the server?

I just asked someone else, but then I thought that you may know too so I decided to ask here as well

Thanks, Lihaas (talk) 00:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I can probably help you, but I'm not sure I understand the problem. Are you able to create the code that's supposed to go in the template, but not able to create a new page? You could post the code on your own talk page, if you can, and tell me it's there, and I could create a new page and put it there for you. Or, you could tell me a bit about what you're trying to do, and I could try going through the steps of creating an infobox. I've never done it that way. If I wanted to create an infobox, I would take an existing infobox, click "edit this page", copy the wikitext, then create a new page and paste it in, and edit it to make changes for what I wanted the new infobox to do. What do you want your infobox to look like? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Wait -- I had it all wrong. I didn't understand what was going on. OK, the "Template:Start infobox page" is just something you can put at the top of your wikitext in an infobox to help format the documentation. First create your infobox, just by creating a page Template: Infobox XXX. Then later if you want to format the documentation nicely you might use {{start infobox page}} at the top and {{end infobox page}} at the bottom, inside noinclude tags, as instructed. Does that make sense? By the way, for testing, it's better to create a page in your userspace. You could create a page with a name like "User:Lihaas/Infobox XXX". It will still work even if it doesn't have "template" in the name. you can use it like this: {{User:Lihaas/Infobox XXX}}. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Survey request

Hi,
I need your help. I am working on a research project at Boston College, studying creation of medical information on Misplaced Pages. You are being contacted, because you have been identified as an important contributor to one or more articles.

Would you will be willing to answer a few questions about your experience? We've done considerable background research, but we would also like to gather the insight of the actual editors. Details about the project can be found at the user page of the project leader, geraldckane. Survey questions can be found at geraldckane/medsurvey. Your privacy and confidentiality will be strictly protected!

The questions should only take a few minutes. I hope you will be willing to complete the survey, as we do value your insight. Please do not hesitate to contact me or Professor Kane if you have any questions.

Thank You, BCeagle0312 (talk) 18:26, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Your kind note

Thank you, your kind words are much appreciated. Jayjg 02:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you

Hello Coppertwig. Thank you for your kind note. Regards, Masterpiece2000 (talk) 02:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Isaac Brock notes section

Hi CT. Yes, if you want to wikilink the notes section, that would be a big improvement! The FA review has been extended on the grounds that work is still being done on the article, so now I have to finish all my planned improvements that were on the back burner.. They must do this just to get more work out of us :-). EdJohnston (talk) 15:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I guess I will. I had a disappointment: I was writing a program so I could add the links using semi-automated editing. I can preserve the special characters and everything while copying the wikitext onto a computer and running it through a Perl script, but I haven't found a way to copy it back onto Misplaced Pages without messing it up. I may have to wait until I have a private Linux account working again in order to do semi-automated edits fully-automated edits using pywikipedia. Meanwhile, I'll add them by hand. Not difficult for the one article, but if I can do it automatically or semi-automatically I may be able to do a lot of articles. Thanks for the reminder. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 15:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, done, at least for the Tupper refs. I'm not sure if any others need to be done, unless maybe they're re-arranged to have only a short note in the footnote. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

That was fast! Article looks good now. Since I have a Mac which runs Unix and Python, maybe I could do pywikipedia from here. Consider offering your Perl script for others to look at; you could put it on a user subpage. EdJohnston (talk) 17:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

It's nothing much yet. It will need lots of tweaking to work well on a variety of articles. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

QuackGuru

Good luck with your communication attempts, and thanks for the help. --Elonka 16:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) You're welcome! Thanks for your message! ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:20, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppetry

There is this IP adress, 81.109.11.33, which makes a series of edits on Dharma that I revert. A user by name user:Langdell reverts my edits to the IP address's version, and then the series of edits from the IP address continue. I think that Langdell may be masquerading here justo show that more than 1 people agree with his version of the article. This has been happening in the Revision history of Dharma since 19 July 2008. Can you just check it out ? Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 16:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

The total number of edits by the IP and by Langdell is small, so I don't think it's a problem at this point in time. Even if it's the same person, maybe Langdell simply forgot to log in. Forgetting to log in is allowed as long as it's not used to gain advantage. Even the IP and Langdell combined are nowhere near 3RR.

I notice that you haven't explained on the talk page the reason for your edits. I suggest doing that. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That I have done, in the section right above Langdell's created one. But the pattern that I talked about has occured twice :- An IP address makes a series of edits. Then I revert them, only to be reverted back by Langdell. After this, the IP's edits continue. If this repeats, I'll let you know. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 08:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see where you explained your edits. Are you talking about Talk:Dharma? Could you give me a quote of a few of your words so I can find the section you're talking about?

You said "Hence, this direct upfront attack by questioning or demanding my identity in this manner, is a crass attempt at a personal attack. This desperation..." I suggest avoiding words that are likely to evoke negative emotions. If you think there's a personal attack, you can ignore it or you can say "personal attack", but there is no need to say any more: no need to say "direct" or "upfront" or "attack" (repeating the word which also appears in the phrase "personal attack"; saying it once is enough) or "crass" or "desperation". I think it's also better to discuss personal attacks in a friendly way on the user's talk page, not on the article talk page. ☺ 10:50, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I've discussed the article here, which is now archived (I did not realise this earlier).

Your suggestion about "avoiding words that evoke neg emotions" is noted. But Langdell has used such language too like, "disruptive interventions of IAF" and later going on to question/demand my identity - a discussion that's nothing to do with the article's topic. Even if devoid of some adjectives, this was equally if not more evocative of "negative emotions".

Earlier too I have very politely requested this user on his talk:page here sometime in December last, urging him to discuss the article instead of posting 'warnings' and threats on my talk page. Even at that time he was simply reverting my edits without a word of explanation on the talk page. So his behavior is all the more un-wikipedia like. Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 07:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Noted. (However, please see the request at the top of this talk page about how to post comments critical of other users.)☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic

Your comment avoided answering the question.

Did you comment on Dematt's talk page to deflect attention away from my question?

Here is a reply to your question. It would be inmpossible to suggest a wording that everyone agrees upon. There is no need for attribution which would water down the sources.

Here is the question below.

This edit by Levine2112 was inaccurate because it was more than Keating. What do you think about the misleading edit. QuackGuru 18:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

"What do you think about the misleading edit" is a leading question, therefore I won't answer it directly. There is no need to answer this question directly. If the text in the article is misleading, it can be changed to different text. There's also no need for me to comment on the current text in the article, as I've already commented on it and as there are currently negotiations going on to change it to something else. Gleng's suggestion, which I mentioned, takes care of the complaint that there is more than one source, not just Keating. I answered at Dematt's talk page for several reasons: because you had posted something there which I felt required a response in the same place; and because I thought you would be likely to see a reply there; and because I thought you might not know what part of Talk:Chiropractic the edit I was referring to had been suggested in; and because I thought you might not see a comment if I posted it in that section of Talk:Chiropractic since many people have trouble keeping up with all the discussions there and I didn't think you had been posting recently in that section. By replying to your post on the same page as your post I certainly didn't intend to deflect attention from your question; in fact, I've been trying to get you to post about these things at Talk:Chiropractic so we can all discuss all sides.

When I say a version everyone will accept, I don't mean necessarily a version everyone will be happy with, but at least a version that everyone can accept as a compromise and not keep reverting. I think that's quite possible; and that WP:CONSENSUS urges us to try with good faith to reach that type of solution. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

You wrote: If the text in the article is misleading, it can be changed to different text. There's also no need for me to comment on the current text in the article, as I've already commented on it and as there are currently negotiations going on to change it to something else.

The discussion on the talk will water down the text even more. It might help this matter if it was reported to the neutrality noticeboard for outside commentary.

There is a need to comment on the current text when it is misleading and a violation of one of Misplaced Pages's core policy, NPOV.

When NPOV violations continue there is a need to continue to discuss it per WP:DR.

Changing it to something else as suggested on talk will water down the source even more.

The current text is an NPOV violation and can be discussed. Do you agree it is misleading to state that it was just Keating when it was not. QuackGuru 19:20, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Instead of commenting on the disputed wording, I've suggested another alternate wording here. (And my later correction.) Please help to find the wording which will evoke the smallest amount of objection from Wikipedian editors considering policy etc. Please comment there and suggest other alternate wordings. I see no need to report anything to a noticeboard at this time (other than the SYN question we've been working on) because discussion is proceeding and seems to me to be getting somewhere, but if you wish to report to a noticeboard I have no objection to your doing so. Please make your concerns about watering-down part of the discussion if you haven't already, and please suggest some alternate wordings that you don't consider to be watered down, trying to accomodate the other objections at the same time if you can. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

The word researchers does not imply all researchers. If we are going to use attribution then researchers is the most accurate and neutral. Removing the attribution would also resolve this too. QuackGuru 01:08, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

First we need to figure out which sources support the statement. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:10, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Your edit was an NPOV violation to claim it was only Keating. QuackGuru 16:57, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

We have a 3RR noticeboard. Maybe a new noticeboard called something like 3RR NPOV violation noticeboard would resolve issues like this quickly. If there are 3 NPOV violation edits to the same specific content then it would be reviewed when editors consider it an easy to identify NPOV violation. This is clearly an NPOV violation. We can start a draft for a new noticeboard and admins can take action against NPOV violations. In the beginning the focus would be on the edit and not the editor. QuackGuru 18:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I think NPOV is best enforced as it is now, by consensus of editors at the page and with occasional RfC (article content) and questions at noticeboards etc. I think we need to be wary of any system that would allow admins to make rulings on article content. Nothing wrong with admins, but the number of them is smaller and I think NPOV is better served by consensus among a larger number of people. See User talk:Ronz#Discussion. Anyway, it's good that you're thinking about how the system could be better designed.

I'm working on posting a list of quotes from the references, on which we can perhaps base a re-written version of that sentence.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 18:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

When edits like this stick in mainspace there is clearly a problem with the system. If it is not broken don't fix it. But the system is broken at this point. We are not going to get agreement on the text that is NPOV. NPOV is not enforced. Something needs to change. Misleading information on Misplaced Pages is allowed to remain in the chiropractic article. QuackGuru 19:26, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

See my reply above. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 19:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

So far the NPOV violation continues to remain in the article. The chiropractic article is broken. It should be fixed. Attribution waters down the text. QuackGuru 01:06, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

See if you can think of a good wording that won't be considered to require attribution. I'm just going to try to think of a new suggested wording now. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

There is already a good wording. Attribution is unnecessary and is currently misleading. We can't attribute text just because some editors don't like what the reliable sources say. How long will the misleading information remain in the article. The longer it remains in the article the more broken Misplaced Pages has become. QuackGuru 01:38, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

What do you think is the good wording? Do you understand what others object to about it? Can you explain their/our POV about that? Can you find wording causing the minimum amount of objection from all Wikipedian editors? I'm just trying to think of some wording now. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:44, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Removing the misleading attribution is good wording. Others object because they don't like what the source says. We are here to write an encyclopedia and not a promotional ad. How many days will the misleading text remain. This does not look good for the editors who added the misleading information against NPOV. QuackGuru 01:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

How is attribution "misleading"? If someone said something, it's true to say that they said it. We've been discussing on the talk page wording that acknowledges that more than one person said stuff. And I'm trying to think of other suggestions. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

The current attribution claims it was only Keating. It is more than one researcher. QuackGuru 02:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Please comment on my new suggested wording, which I just posted at Talk:Chiropractic#Antiscientific: suggested wording of sentence. Please help tweak it. Please comment there. (Here too if you like.) This suggested wording doesn't imply only one researcher. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

You asked how long the information would remain in the article. One answer is: until we get a consensus or rough consensus on new wording, at least as strong as the rough consensus that supported the current wording. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:32, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Logicus

Coppertwig, as someone who has tried to convince User:Logicus to avoid personal attacks in the past, would you be willing to explain to Logicus why edits like this (see the end, especially) constitute personal attacks? I've asked him to be civil and avoid personal attacks (see User_talk:Logicus#Please_be_civil), and rather than let it go, he demands that that I provide the same details I've already provided to him about what constitutes a personal attack or "withdraw" the claim that he has made personal attacks. Cheers--ragesoss (talk) 19:58, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you.--ragesoss (talk) 02:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Analog hole

Hi Coppertwig. It seems that the user you interacted with a few month ago - 71.100.x.x - is back at analog hole, and this time, inserting links to his wikibooks:analog hole article, which contains some of the exact links that were removed previously. The editor has some personal issues with me () due to an AfD (), so I'd like your opinion on the WikiBooks issue before this turn into an edit war. Thanks! --Jiuguang (talk) 21:03, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I read parts of the discussions at the links you give. I'm not sure if I want to give an opinion on the content dispute. May I suggest WP:3O? Or WP:Dispute resolution. Note that the editor has a right to edit the article and I'm not aware of any reason why the user shouldn't insert links. Please state your case very clearly on the article talk page, and maybe give me a link to where you do that. I'm sorry I can't be more helpful than that right now. However, feel free to ask again if the situation gets worse. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - see bottom of Talk:Analog hole. I'm try not to have a repeat of User_talk:Coppertwig/Archive_7#Message_to_71.100.x.x. --Jiuguang (talk) 01:49, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Dharma

Hello coppertwig. Thankyou for your attempts to harmonise the edit on the subject of the article dharma. It may be true that editors choose anonymity but please be kind enough to take time to look at User:IAF's talk page. If you do not do this I am afraid that we cannot get anywhere. Please also note that I am the principal editor of Ajahn Munindo's last book 'Unexpected Freedom'. Ajahn Munindo is a senior representative of the Theravada Buddhist religion in the West. He is the abbot of Aruna Ratanagiri Buddhist Monastery. I can assure you that a teacher of Ajahn Munindo's eminence would not invite and then request assistance in putting a book together from someone who did not know what he was talking about. I hope (and assume) that since you have intervened you have some knowledge of this subject yourself. In order to improve the article I need the assistance of someone who actually knows something about this subject. I am very sorry but I shall be unable to enter into any dispute with the user in question. He has more than adequately demonstrated his true colours in the past. My only desire is to further knowledge of this subject because it is one in which I just happen to have a better than average understanding. The User:IAF has a long history of anti-social behaviour. You can only know this by seeing how many times he has been blocked. If you would like to help me improve the article dharma, you are most welcome. Best wishes.Glenn Langdell (talk) 18:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Welcome, Glenn. It's good to have an editor knowledgeable of the subject. Actually, I know nothing of the subject. I think the page came to my attention at the 3RR noticeboard and I've been acting sort-of like a neutral referee, not making judgements about which version is better. I might or might not continue to do that.

Please treat IAF in a respectful manner. If the other user doesn't reciprocate, that will be obvious. Also, please see my request at the top of this talk page about how to post criticism of other users.

According to the verifiability policy, material should be supported by reliable sources. I hope you'll be able to add more references to improve the article.

Feel free to contact me again. I'll try to remember to keep an eye on the article. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Look, from personal experience, most editors who have a "gudge" against my edits bring up the issue of past warnings and "past behaviour" to further their view-point. I don't think that that is applicable while editing articles because an article's discussion must contain content solely about the articles improvement or furtherment. A User's identity, his User:page being blank, past block-log etc. are totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

So I request you that whatever decision you make further about the article involving me and Langdel/anyone, it should ONLY involve my (and the other user's) recourses to action that are taken for that article only. Any other aspect/attribute should not be entertained or taken as a mesure of forming opinion or enforcing something. In my case, I have previously invited Langdel quite respectfully to enter the negotiation round, and have put forth a detailed reason for my edits (now in the archives). Indian_Air_Force (IAF) (talk) 08:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I have no special authority to make decisions: decisions are made by consensus. However, I agree that a discussion about article content should be only about article content (and about what the references say, how reliable they are etc.) and not about user conduct, and that if user conduct is to be discussed (usually on that user's talk page and other venues, not the article talk page in my opinion) that past behaviour or behaviour at some other article are generally not relevant to decisions about that article. Editors should work together and try to reach consensus. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 11:09, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

thank you

Actually, they weren't rhetorical questions at all and I appreciate your help. Those were the kind of questions that stymied the article in question. ChrisO, being an administrator and knowing the ropes, was able to search for more individuals to lend weight to his view, and when there was no consensus proceeded to tie the article up with these complaints. This is not a good way to proceed. I did not know one could do an RfC on article content. Perhaps that would be the way to proceed with this article. Thanks again for your guidance. Tundrabuggy (talk) 13:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, without knowing much at all about the article, but from the RfC and stuff, I have the impression that RfC (article content) and questions at reliable sources noticeboard would be an excellent way to proceed. I'm not sure if I've ever done one of those, actually, but I'm willing to help you figure out how if you like. There are probably straightforward instructions. Part of the key is writing a clear, concise question; if the question is too long or convoluted you might not get anyone answering. Sometimes (usually?) people work together on the article talk page beforehand to agree on the wording of the question to be asked. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 13:35, 4 August 2008 (UTC)