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This article was nominated for deletion on January 31, 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on February 1, 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Archives
Archive 1: 2003 — August 2006 Archive 2: August 2006 — December 2006 Archive 3: December 2006 — March 2007 Archive 4: March 2007 — April 2007 Archive 5: April 2007 — July 2007 Archive 6: July 2007 — October 2007 Archive 7: October 2007 — January 2008 Archive 8: January 2008 — April 2008

Topical organization

In light of recent improvements in sourcing and descriptions (if I do say so myself), I would like to re-open the issue of leaving this list organized according to notability of demarcation source instead of sorting related topics together. As has been pointed out before, this system decreases the utility of the article by making it more troublesome for the average reader of this encyclopedia to find relevant information (for instance, homeopathy). Though some degree of housecleaning remains to be done, to a large extent the entries describe their topics and sources well enough for the current somewhat artificial division to seem more troublesome than it might be worth. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 07:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

To me, this represents a huge weight problem, a bit like having a list of terrorists according to the U.N., George W. Bush, Rush Limbaugh, and Hamas all in the same group. There is no objective demarcation we can rely on. The problem is exacerbated by the title remaining as it is without the "alleged" caveat. It might be OK if we explicitly stated the source along with each entry, and not in a footnote, thus: Astrology .... (source: California Academy of Sciences). --Jim Butler (t) 19:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I am in agreement with Jim Butler here. I consider the entire article (sorry, list) to be of little value as it merely cites a long list of opinions, and derogatory ones for that matter. Re-titling the article something like "List of topics accused of being pseudoscientific" would be more accurate. Further, listing the entities who have made these claims next to each subject would be much better than hiding them in footnotes.Wikigonish (talk) 16:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this change. Let's do it according to the ArbCom rules, from obvious to questionable. There are quite a few questionable sciences lacking on this page. Economics, for example, has been widely criticized as a pseudoscience (by Soros, Taleb, Richard, and rightly so, as it uses more a priori deductive reasoning than it can justify (e.g., the "efficient market hypothesis" -- which is violated daily in the financial markets, and its Misplaced Pages article notably has no evidence for it). It needs to be included here, along with other social sciences, although it is in my mind the most pseudoscientific because it makes the strongest claims, and tries to fool with fancy mathematics. II | (t - c) 17:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Primal Therapy proposed addition

I request the consideration of primal therapy to be listed under one of the lists on this page. I consider it to be pseudoscience, and I wondered if I could get a consensus. See the criticism section on the wiki primal therapy section. AN argument is made for primal therapy being a pseudoscience on debunkingprimaltherapy.com . I will wait for your advice before I list it here, Zonbalance (talk) 08:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

"The theoretical basis for the therapy is the supposition that prenatal experiences and birth trauma form people's primary impressions of life and that they subsequently influence the direction our lives take... Truth be known, primal therapy cannot be defended on scientifically established principles. This is not surprising considering its questionable theoretical rationale." - I think you have a winner. That ref. is I believe by the same Timothy Moore as the one at Glendon, and is currently absent from the article. I have enough edit wars on my WatchList right now, but feel free to incorporate it. Note also that the website you linked probably does not qualify under WP:RS, as it appears to be self-published. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 20:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

EMF (2)

Did anyone remove the EMF reference?--Area69 (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

No. I provided above two solid references, the WHO factsheet on electromagnetic hypersensitivity and the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences report on EMF(pdf), as well as some discussion asserting that the current entry is in accord with scientific consensus. I am also unclear from the previous discussion what precisely you think should be removed and why. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 23:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

agreed on pento water and bates method

seconding Eldereft's excellent recent additions, there is a scientific consensus on these. Zonbalance (talk) 20:00, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Propose deletion of biased and damaging list (not even an article)

I just came across this list and my immediate reaction was: "How is this an encyclopedia entry??!" I then looked over the discussion page and found that there had been requests to delete the page, but that this was voted down. I want to add my voice to those who do not think this list should be on Misplaced Pages. My reasons agree with some of the complaints already lodged against the list. Firstly, it is a list and Misplaced Pages discourages lists. Secondly, the entire list represents a POV (I won't add the -ish because it is more than POV-ish!). I will add to this that the entire concept of pseudoscience is not only subjective (ie. there will always be debate over whether a given subject is REALLY pseudoscientific or not), but it is a negative label. To apply the term pseudoscientific to a subject is to attack the credibility of that subject. Quite simply, the term is an insult.

I will go further in noting that many of the topics in the list are themselves unclear. For instance, out-of-body experiences are on the list, yet the brief description notes that they are "real experiences" and that some theories invoke the paranormal. What is really being labeled pseudoscientific here? The theory that a soul might leave the body is by definition not scientific, so where is the pseudo-science?

Another example, ESP is listed as pseudoscientific, though ESP could not claim to be a science in and of itself. The science that studies ESP, however, is likely what is being indicated as pseudoscientific here, though the list does not include parapsychology. Parapsychology is a field of research that uses strict scientific methods. I note here that the Parapsychology Association is affiliated with the American Association for the Advancement of Science, lending the field credibility and destablizes an argument for "scientific consensus" that might declare parapsychology a pseudoscience.

Now, if the science of parapsychology cannot deemed a pseudoscience by scientific consensus (though there will always be those who disagree), then how can certain subjects of the field's research be deemed pseudoscientific on their own, like out-of-body experiences and ESP?

Finally, I will note that most of the citations in this list come from recognized "skeptical" sources. These sources are by nature biased and cannot be deemed to speak for the scientific community at large. So, in effect, this is a list of subjects that biased skeptics deem unworthy of attention. What is the value in a list like that?

Quite simply, this list is flawed in its design and does damage in giving the impression to the uninformed reader that certain topics or subjects ought to be rejected out of hand because some people consider them wacky.Wikigonish (talk) 03:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Have you read the ArbCom ruling at the top of this page? This has been discussed and ruled upon at the highest level. Doug Weller (talk) 06:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I've read the ArbCom ruling, based on a rather limited discussion. I add this note because the points I mention above were not all discussed in the Arbitration discussion and I think that the list remains problematic.Wikigonish (talk) 14:54, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

One way of making an immediate and effective change to this list would be to simply change the article title. The title presently implies that the subjects in this list ARE pseudoscientific. Instead, the article actually lists subjects that have been labeled pseudoscientific by some group or another. I suggest that the title be changed to something along the lines of list of topics or concepts that have been accused of being pseudoscientific. This suggested title would be more in line with what the list actually includes, and would represent an objective overview of the list for potential readers. As is, the biased POV begins from the title itself in assuming that the list includes concepts that are all definitely pseudoscientific, a claim that cannot be sustained. I do not know how to change the title, but this would be one major step towards cleaning this list up.Wikigonish (talk) 15:11, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Topics which notable skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific

The entire "Topics which notable skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific" is WP:POVFORKish and should be deleted. -- Levine2112 05:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

No, it is not a fork and should not be deleted. Doug Weller (talk) 20:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Doug above, the notable sceptics section is not a POV fork. I'm also against the "accused" suggestion. Verbal chat 21:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I tried to delete the section as per Levine2112's suggestion, but I was "undone". Why is anyone against the suggestion to change and improve this article by making it more objective? This list is of topics that have been "accused" of being pseudoscientific. If you think there is some kind of objectively scientific way to prove an accusation like that, then let's add you to the list as well. Seriously, this list is completely biased and will not get better with biased editors trying to protect it.Wikigonish (talk) 15:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

The second, better organized, part of the article is not only not a POV-fork, it is not even clearly demarcated from the first. For instance, the American Cancer Society is cited to support the non-functionality of Applied Kinesiology, but the closest the cited article comes to saying pseudoscience is to itself cite QuackWatch. Is this sufficient to promote the practice to the favored first section?

Consider also the case of Autodynamics. Arguing the Lorentz transformations is about as productive as arguing the Noether theorem - not quite disputing the second law level, but next to it. It would of course be original research to list it here based solely on my understanding of physics, but neither do we. However, the APS will likely never issue an official statement, leaving it to languish in the second section. This adds an unintended element of social notability to a categorization scheme that was supposed to be based solely on level of non-acceptance.

There is definitely a valid WP:WEIGHT argument against organizing this article according solely to field. It is my contention, however, that properly documenting the sources used for inclusion more accurately and more precisely provides the same information that the big ol' dividing line does.

Also, adding an accused or similar qualifier to the name and inclusion criteria could significantly decrease the utility of this list by opening it up to all manner of nonsense. - Eldereft (cont.) 16:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikigonish is confused. Misplaced Pages articles are not a place for editors to prove things, scientifically or otherwise, but for editors to report what reliable sources have said about a subject. Doug Weller (talk) 18:44, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I will not deny that this list does have me confused. The title of the article implies that all of the topics in the list are pseudosciences, or "pseudoscientific". Yet, the list includes something like out-of-body experiences, which the list itself defines as being a genuine human experience. How is this pseudoscientific? In response to Doug Weller, surely editors have the responsibility to prove why something is even listed in this list and explaining how it fits the bill. Furthermore, in response to Eldereft's suggestion that changing the name to indicate that the list is a list not of actual pseudosciences (which would be impossible to codify being that the term itself indicates POV), but is rather a list of topics designated as pseudoscientific by skeptic or scientific organizations would leave the list open to all manner of nonsense, I reply that the list already is filled with all manner of nonsense. Changing the label will only help the uninformed reader understand that this is a list of topics that have been deemed/labeled pseudoscientific by some groups or individuals. Presumably this would not change the content requirements (however loose they already may be).Wikigonish (talk) 20:42, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Out-of-body experiences are included, as stated but should be expanded, because some explanations for the real phenomenon delve into pseudoscience (or, more properly, are described as such by sources reliable to make such claims). We also have Ufology in spite of the fact that many reported UFOs are spy balloons and the like. This is how a list is more useful and nuanced than a bare category. - we are able to describe the level of evidence and particular attribution.

By changing the article to List of topics which have been accused of being pseudoscientific, we would be changing at least the apparent inclusion criteria to cover anything which has notably been described as pseudoscientific rather than only things that have been described by relevant reliable sources as pseudoscientific. For instance, evolutionary psychology has been described as pseudoscientific by some observers, but on the whole is unquestionably operating (or at least trying to operate) within the fold of science. But including such fields might by connotation give an incorrect impression of, for instance, the considered opinion of the scientific community regarding the face on Mars. - Eldereft (cont.) 01:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should really focus how the "Topics which notable skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific" is not only a WP:POVFORK (in that it only allows for the presentation of one-side of controversial and disputed opinions), but also how it may be in gross violation of WP:PSCI. This section of this "list" article has always been contentious and perhaps with good reason. Maybe we should all really consider whether or not this section should be removed. -- Levine2112 07:34, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we need to keep in mind that lists need to be NPOV and needs to follow list naming and list content rules. Arbcom's PSCI also applies. I haven't looked at the list under discussion, but does it follow these guidelines? -- Dēmatt (chat) 15:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

<-- That's a good point re: NPOV and LIST. This is from WP:LIST:

:

Lists, whether they are embedded lists or stand-alone lists, are encyclopedic content as are paragraphs and articles, and they are equally subject to Misplaced Pages's content policies such as Verifiability, No original research, Neutral point of view, and others.

Difficult or contentious subjects for which the definition of the topic itself is disputed should be discussed on the talk page in order to attain consensus and to ensure that each item to be included on the list is adequately referenced and that the page on which the list appears as a whole represents a neutral point of view.

The principle of Neutral Point of View requires that we describe competing views without endorsing any one in particular. Misplaced Pages:No original research applies equally to a list of like things as it does for the content article on each individual thing listed.

In my heart of hearts, I feel that the "Topics which notable skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific" section of this article is contentious, and the definition of the subtopic itself is disputed; however, I don't feel that this list represents a neutral point of view because it doesn't describe competing views. Rather, it just gives us the views of some notable skeptical organizations or individuals.

So now, aside from possibly violating WP:FORK and WP:PSCI, we can also add WP:LIST and WP:NPOV to the pile. I am in favor of just outright deleting this section of the article. Other options might include providing the competing views, but I think that will make this article even more unwieldy. Does anyone have any other thoughts on how to correct the FORK, PSCI, LIST and NPOV violations in this section of the article by doing anything other than deleting this section outright? -- Levine2112 19:12, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I've suggested renaming the list itself. As I've argued, the word pseudoscientific is by nature not a neutral word and so designating this a list of topics which ARE pseudoscientific automatically biases the entire list, not just the sub-section that Levine2112 is referring to. I still think that changing the title of the article itself will be a good first step in clarifying the contents of the list. This is a list of topics that are considered pseudoscientific by some, which is entirely different from saying that these things ARE pseudoscientific. Those who have rejected this solution have not yet given any good reason for their objection.Wikigonish (talk) 14:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, just my cursory reading of naming conventions of lists sounds like the list's name should be List of pseudosciences with a lead that explains the contents specifically and then everything is NPOV from there, but I am willing to listen to a really good reason it's not called that considering that it might be related to the ArbCom requirements. -- Dēmatt (chat) 17:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Religious concepts

I recently listed Christianity as a pseudoscientific concept given the supernatuiral nature of many of its claims. This was removed, however. Why? If it is because religions are not usually considered pseudoscientific, then there are several other concepts that need to be removed: Dianetics is a religious concept stemming from Scientology; feng shui is a religious concept stemming from traditional Chienes religion, etc. Again, given the vagueries of this list's raison d'etre, I do not see its value. This list must be overhauled or removed.Wikigonish (talk) 19:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

If it doesn't claim to be or is not labeled as scientific by others, it can't really be pseudoscience. Christian Science, despite the title, doesn't make any scientific claims in the usual sense. Creation Science and "auditing" by Scientologists are pseudoscience because they make a pretense at being the real thing. SDY (talk) 00:51, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so one of the criteria for inclusion in this list is that the subject claims to be scientific? If that is the case, then why are out-of-body experiences on the list? An experience cannot claim to be scientific. Furthermore, what about the small list of paranormal subjects? Does ESP claim to be scientific? No. ESP is not a science nor is it a pseudoscience. Again, I am pointing out here how flawed this list is.Wikigonish (talk) 15:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Those subjects are subject to scientific analysis, and have been found wanting and are hence pseudo-scientific in their presentation. Religion is a different kettle of fish. Verbal chat 21:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

If qualified scientists call it pseudoscience, then that's enough for me. It seems that we don't have a really good word for "wacky theories which don't work" besides pseudoscience. II | (t - c) 05:00, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Qualified scientists often disagree amongst themselves. There is never a uniform consensus and theories are constantly updated and changed to reflect new observations. Some scientists might call some topic pseudoscientific, but there are at least two problems with this: 1) Not all scientists will agree, so the list is a list of what ONLY SOME scientist(s) call pseudoscientific, and 2) the label "pseudoscience" is a derogatory label indicating that the subject in question is not worthy of attention. This is not the same thing as a topic which requires further attention, or is "wanting" as Sesquipedalian indicates. When something is termed pseudoscience, the intention is not to indicate that more work needs to be done in the area, but to indicate that no work ought to be done in the given area since it is a wacky area to begin with. This is not a scientific approach in itself since it attempts to shut down scientific investigation.Wikigonish (talk) 15:51, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic and New England Skeptical Society

That link appears to be citing the NESS newsletter. Things may have changed, but my recollection from last time I wanted to cite something there is that I could find no indication that the articles presented are the considered opinion of the organization rather than the considered opinion of Dr. Novella. I would be surprised if the collective organizational assessment were any different, but sadly my opinions have not yet been declared WP:RS. - Eldereft (cont.) 09:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Please take a closer look at the website. Dr. Novella is the presedent and co-founder of New England Skeptical Society. Novella's view represents NESS. QuackGuru 16:41, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry, but Dr. Novella is writing as a notable skeptic, not the official mouthpiece of NESS. We could, of course, change the consensus inclusion criteria for this page to include notable skeptics or people otherwise expected to know what they are talking about. Have you considered adding innate intelligence and subluxations? - Eldereft (cont.) 02:05, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Chiropractic Chiropractic: Flagship of the Alternative Medicine Fleet, Part One and Part Two - by Steven Novella MD, and President of the New England Skeptical Society

Innate intelligence Joseph C. Keating, Jr (2002). "The Meanings of Innate" (PDF). J Can Chiropr Assoc. 46 (1): 10.

Vertebral subluxation Keating JC Jr, Charlton KH, Grod JP, Perle SM, Sikorski D, Winterstein JF (2005). "Subluxation: dogma or science?". Chiropr Osteopat. 13: 17. doi:10.1186/1746-1340-13-17. PMID 16092955.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)

Here are a few refs. Dr. Novella is writing as a notable skeptic and is running NESS. Keating is a notable chiropractic historian. QuackGuru 02:52, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I was not questioning the claim or the source reliability in the normal sense. Unfortunately, consensus on this article is that inclusion requires the considered opinion of a scientific body or skeptical organization. Once the inclusion threshold is met, normal WP:RS applies. Personally, if Sagan, Tyson, and Singh agree on something then I feel pretty confident of its status with regards to reality, but what can you do? Ooh, here we go:

Ontario Skeptics (now Skeptics Canada) has analyzed chiropractic and found it bunk (PDF). In 2001 they recognized Paul Benedetti, Wayne MacPhail for their investigative journalism of chiropractic; the authors later published Spin Doctors.

The producers of Scientific American Frontiers gave a fairly excoriating but calm review of the evidence, theoretical base, and medical opinion of chiropractic, quoted here. The original should be tracked down and checked against WP:RS for the claims made.

At least two universities have in the last decade rejected serious proposals to establish chiropractic programs. These rejections resulted at least in part from widespread antipathy in the biomedical community towards the antiscientific and pseudoscientific attitudes rampant in modern chiropractic: FSU story; York University, Toronto story. The latter saga comes with a statement from The Council for Scientific Medicine.

There are also a number of organizations and advocacy groups who consider chiropractic fully or mostly unfounded in science. For instance (in no particular order): NCAHF, http://www.chirowatch.com/, http://www.neck911usa.com/, http://www.voicesusa.org/, http://www.vocact.com/, http://www.chirovictims.org.uk/, http://www.chirobase.org/.

Having established that the inclusion criterion is met, we need to discuss nuance. Our fiercely contested chiropractic article indicates that some chiropractors, notably NACM and CAMT, reject the pseudoscientific origins of their profession, preferring instead a view of the body in accord with anatomy. There is some modicum of evidence for spinal manipulation and lower back pain (e.g. Cochrane and Bandolier). It is hardly stellar, but should be acknowledged. Other points of interest should include subluxations and innate intelligence; the rational and demonstrated lack of efficacy for several other conditions, such as asthma or allergies; the lack of plausibility or quality evidence for several other claims made by practitioners (a study of claims); and the dangers (leading cause of stroke in young adults, dangers to developing bone structure, overuse of x-rays, &c.) of irresponsible practice. Widespread use of homeopathy and applied kinesiology, ambivalence or worse towards vaccination, and similar attitudes among practitioners may or may not be deemed relevant. It seems too early to mention the Sandra Nette v. Stiles et al. lawsuit in this article until it has run its course.

Unfortunately, this stuff gives me a headache, if someone else wants to draw up a draft for discussion before I get around to it, I would appreciate it. - Eldereft (cont.) 06:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the headache; imagine being one! Chiropractic itself is well established in science and has a large following similar to psychoanalysis which means it should fall under the part 4 of PSCI above or 'questionable science' at the very least, which shouldn't be classified as pseudoscience. Although I agree the Innate Intelligence is wacky, I don't think anyone has called it pseudoscience by itself. Most of the critics have just called the whole chiropractic field pseudoscience, which brings us back to my first point. Subluxation is a broad subject that does have some mainstream science concerning the musculoskeletal components that everyone treats (ie adhesion, sprain, pain, etc.) but for some it includes the Innate Intelligence which entails the vitalist components that at one end just means that the "the body is greater than the sum of its parts" to the other end that has a theology entwined in it as it invokes some "soul" and "spirit" concepts. This, of course, is hard to evaluate, but I am not sure if anyone considers it pseudoscience or just religious. It brings us back to not having a reliable source that says that Innate Intelligence is pseudoscience.. I spent a year looking for it. -- Dēmatt (chat) 15:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's the thing. Dematt wrote in part: "Most of the critics have just called the whole chiropractic field pseudoscience, which brings us back to my first point."

Per ArbCom ruling at top of page: Questionable science: Theories which have a substantial following, such as psychoanalysis, but which some critics allege to be pseudoscience, may contain information to that effect, but generally should not be so characterized.

We can include information that critics say are pseudoscience which includes chiropractic per WP:PSCI. QuackGuru 19:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Further Reading

I note that ALL of the references listed under "Further Reading" are written by recognized skeptics. This supports the view that this entire list is simply a soap box for the skeptical opinion which regularly attempts to minimize theories and scientific observations which contradict a narrow materialist ideology. Michael Shermer and James Randi are known ideologues, and Randi isn't even an academic (he's a professional magician). I repeat once again that this list is entirely biased, one-sided, and actually inflammatory. I call for this list to be deleted, OR to have the name changed to reflect its bias rather than to imply that the notion of "pseudoscience" is somehow objectively determined.Wikigonish (talk) 02:17, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is the guide to deletion. Even discounting the problems with the previous nomination, though, the consensus to keep was overwhelming. Consensus can change, of course, but you would need to be prepared to rebut the points made in the previous VfD.

I am unaware of any appropriate Further reading suggestions written from a non-materialist perspective, but proposals are always welcome. - Eldereft (cont.) 03:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Part of the problem here is that the list inherently prevents further reading from a non-materialist, non-skeptical body because the idea of "pseudoscience" is a biased position from the outset originating from this particular wing. That there should be no "further reading" on an opposing side of the issue ought to be enough to illustrate the POV bias of this entire list.Wikigonish (talk) 16:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Not inherently, I just happen not to know of any good, general references that are not from a rationalist materialist perspective. There are plenty specific references from non-materialist sources, for instance criticism of Reiki and other paranormal topics from a Christian perspective. If a source reliably describes a number of entries or potential entries, I see no reason why it could not be suggested as further reading. - Eldereft (cont.) 17:55, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Disparaging list

I am moving forward with attempts to see this list deleted since my calls to have the title changed have not yet been met. Pseudo-science is a label applied to theories and methods deemed to be "fake" science, or that stem from false science. The determination that something is fake science is not something that can be objectively made, especially in the context of paranormal phenomena. There is a lot of scientific research being done in this area, yet labeling the work of these scientists as pseudoscientific is spurious and libelous. Calling the list a "list of pseudosciences" implies an objective and factual basis for inclusion whereas what is really being listed are the inflammatory opinions of only some members of the scientific community. The list needs to be deleted or have its title changed to reflect that this is a subjective list. Perhaps, "List of concepts labeled pseudoscientific by skeptics" or something.Wikigonish (talk) 15:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The list is ineligible for speedy deletion, both because it is not a page that exists exclusively to disparage its subject, as the "Attack Pages" criteria would require, and because it has been the subject of an Articles for Deletion debate. The last AFD was over 18 months ago, so I would have no objection if you wished to nominate the page for deletion, but I note that the consensus to Keep last time around was fairly strong, by my read; You'll want to provide very strong policy arguments that support deletion, with specific examples of the article's flaws and a very clear discussion of why those flaws cannot be remedied through the normal editorial process. But I stress that editwarring on the article is not a great way to further your position, nor is it likely to convince others that your rationale is sound. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 15:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that this page does exist solely to disparage its content since the term "pseudoscience" itself is disparaging. It is like having an article titled List of people who are idiots and then including third-party references to anyone who has ever been called an idiot by someone notable. The list is problematic because it makes the disparaging opinions of some skeptics appear to be factually objective. I have been trying to make my case for either a title change to reflect the lack of objectivity in this list, or to have the list deleted, but this list is supported by several ideologues of the same ilk as the sources they cite within it.Wikigonish (talk) 15:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have gone ahead and boldly changed the title in order to mitigate the bias inherent in the list. I am satisfied with the name change, and hope others will recognize that what I am doing here is an attempt to improve Misplaced Pages. The former title implied a factual basis for something's actually being pseudoscience, whereas the new title explains that this is a list of opinions.Wikigonish (talk) 15:50, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have changed it back. Please establish consensus first. If you want to change the name against the consensus here I believe there are proper procedures for this. Your recent activities are bordering on disruptive. Verbal chat 16:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikigonish, the attack pages criteria exists specifically for pages where the entire article is an attack on a subject, or where such attacks are unsourced and make up the bulk of an article, or where there is obvious bad faith. In this case, it looks to me that there is good faith effort on the part of quite a few editors to improve this list and ensure that it is as neutral as possible. The lead seems to be a good attempt at acknowledging that items on the list are likely to be items of controversy. Since there's good faith, and sources (whether questioned or not), it doesn't meet the standard of a "Pure attack page". You seem to have valid points, and - if you wish to see this article deleted - you will need to do so through a properly formatted and well-reasoned deletion nomination through the AFD process. But continued disruption could well undermine your valid points about the article, which isn't your intention, I'm sure. Please take a deep breath and relax. Thanks, UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 16:34, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I have not attempted to be disruptive here, and I have certainly NOT committed any act of vandalism, contrary to Verbal's unfounded accusation. Misplaced Pages encourages editors to be bold. I explained my rationale for the name change. How is this vandalism? I have already discussed the need to at least change the title in order to mitigate the bias of the list. In the discussion pages above there has been some indication of support for a name change. Thus, I changed the name. How is this vandalism?? As of yet, no editors have changed the page to deal with my concerns, nor have they come forward with valid arguments to counter what I have been pointing to as serious issues with this list. Unless things are fixed, I will go ahead and file for another deletion review; I note that the discussions on the last reviews did not involve any of the arguments that I've raised, nor satisfactory replies to them. Calling me a vandal is just the type of false declaration that many skeptics make when they declare this or that concept to be pseudoscientific.Wikigonish (talk) 19:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

There was an extended discussion earlier this year on the issue of naming this article. As I read it, there was no consensus about anything other than the long-windedness of the discussion. If you would like to revive the issue, please read that archive and couch your arguments accordingly. - Eldereft (cont.) 21:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is a good one to read from the archives. And here's a thought: What if we split this article into at least two pieces? In this one, we keep the list of the "obvious" and the "widely considered to be" pseudosciences (as per WP:PSCI). This is essentially the top section: "Pseudoscientific concepts per scientific consensus". And then, we take the "Topics which notable skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific" section and turn that into its own article. I suggest this because it seems that no one has a problem with the first section of this article and it would be a shame to lose this encyclopaedic information to an AfD. And then with the newly created Topics which notable skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific article, we could take that to AfD and see how it holds up alone. Reasonable solution? -- Levine2112 22:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion continues below (now as an RFC). -- Fyslee / talk 18:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

RFC: Split this article into at least two pieces

Template:RFCsci

Here is a good one to read from the archives. And here's a thought: What if we split this article into at least two pieces? In this one, we keep the list of the "obvious" and the "widely considered to be" pseudosciences (as per WP:PSCI). This is essentially the top section: "Pseudoscientific concepts per scientific consensus". And then, we take the "Topics which notable skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific" section and turn that into its own article. I suggest this because it seems that no one has a problem with the first section of this article and it would be a shame to lose this encyclopaedic information to an AfD. And then with the newly created Topics which notable skeptical groups consider to be pseudoscientific article, we could take that to AfD and see how it holds up alone. Reasonable solution? -- Levine2112 22:13, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Not a bad idea at all! Very Solomonic. -- Fyslee / talk 02:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support. It would bring clarity and greatly reduce the (cyclic) argumentation. Hgilbert (talk) 05:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
• Support. Something needs to be done to fix this list, and this sounds like a good start. I still think the first section will come across as more objective in its designating "pseudoscience" than it ought to, but moving some stuff into a different and more nuanced list is entirely acceptable. Thanks.Wikigonish (talk) 15:17, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
• Comment: What makes a "notable skeptical group" different from "scientific consensus"? Do we have a source which clearly disambiguates skepticism from consensus? If not, then this is essentially a WP:POVFORK proposal, which is forbidden by Misplaced Pages. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:11, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I would guess that "scientific consensus" would have to refer to agreement between many and various groups of scientists, ideally from different countries and cultures whilst "notable skeptical group" would refer to one or two groups, probably from the same background.Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and say that this kind of guessing is problematic. I think that the whole idea of "scientific consensus" about pseudoscience is ludicrous. Most scientists don't care a lick about pseudoscience and wouldn't bother to get a "representative" group to say anything on the subject. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

• Support. I might throw in a wildcard suggestion for a third section which would be 'scientific ideas based on religious belief'. Religion is outside the scope of science and many religious concepts are not entirely compatible with scientific observations.Martin Hogbin (talk) 19:21, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. Such a split would only lead to endless arguments about definitions and grades of nonsense ("astrology is more nonsensical than reflexology" - "oh no it isn't"), and will tend towards inevitable original research and POV-pushing. The only solid basis for this list is that it consists of topics that are described in reliable sources as pseudoscience. It is not the business of Misplaced Pages to atempt to define grades of garbage. Much better (as a tertiary source) to keep it as it is, with all the stuff that has been described as garbage in one big heap. SNALWIBMA ( talk - contribs ) 07:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment. That any of these concepts are being declared "nonsense" is problematic as it represents a particular POV and one that is degrading and defamatory to adherents of these concepts. There is no factual basis for designating this or that concept as nonsense since scientific theory is constantly changing and being updated. Given the inherent bias in the designation, I've suggested changing the title to reflect the nature of the list more accurately: something like "List of concepts labeled as pseudoscientific by skeptical groups," or something. To use your terms, remember that one man's garbage is another man's treasure; a "List of concepts that are garbage" is obviously biased. A better title would be "List of concepts that skeptical groups consider garbage."Wikigonish (talk) 17:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose: Notable skeptic groups represent scientific consensus. The article is good in its present form, there is no need to split this article. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 07:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I'll add here my response that notable skeptical groups do not represent scientific consensus. For one, ScienceApologist has it right above that most scientists wouldn't bother to engage in that kind of name-calling. Further, look at the spokespeople for notable skeptical organizations. The Amazing Randi is a magician, not a scientist. Skeptical orgs. are ideologically motivated, that's why they and not most scientists have no compunctions against name-calling.Wikigonish (talk) 17:11, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Counter proposal

Stop with the attempted tiers of pseudoscience (one tier for scientific consensus, one tier for "skeptical groups", whatever the fuck that means.) Instead just find sources that are reliable that have called some aspect of an idea pseudoscientific and group topically. Trying to demarcate within pseudosciences as we are currently doing is silly. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:25, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid this illustrates the problem we are facing; there is a jump in the above from "sources that have called some aspect of an idea pseudoscientific" to "demarcate between pseudosciences". If even an editor of this article is concluding that because some reliable source has said "x" about some aspect of "y", then - regardless of the level of support for or controversy around this statement - "x" is true of all of "y", we have a very problematic situation. The article is, even if technically accurate, leading readers (and editors, apparently) to (logically, and surely in a number of instances empirically) false conclusions. 'Course the title reinforces this; it is simply not reflecting that there is a second tier of concepts included here, for which "some x said pseudoscience about some aspect of y" is verifiable, but "y is a pseudoscience" is not. The fork would be between:

• areas for which the claim "x is a pseudoscience" can be reasonably held to be verifiable (and which thus belong under the present title) and
• areas for which the claim "some people say x, or some aspect of x, is pseudoscientific" can be reasonably held to be verifiable.

These are clearly differentiable, not a POV fork, and their confusion is the cause of endless argumentation here - for good reason. Hgilbert (talk) 22:43, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

"Some aspect of foo is pseudoscientific" is linguistically equivalent to saying "foo is pseudoscientific". While this isn't a formal logic argument, rarely are people in this murky area speaking in absolutes. Is all of ufology pseudoscientific? Certainly not! Even though ufology is pseudoscientific, when someone simply reports on stories someone has told that is not pseudoscience... and arguably still an aspect of ufology. So why is ufology listed as considered pseudoscience by scientific consensus?

No, the real reason for this attempt at demarcation between things that are pseudoscience and things that only have "aspects" that are pseudoscientific is that dedicated believers in the subjects of this list are active on this page. For example, I notice that anthroposophy is listed as something which is in Tier II of pseudosciences despite some pretty good indications that most of it is high-grade baloney. Nevertheless, we have some dedicated anthroposophy soapboxers active here who want to make sure that it isn't put in Tier I next to creation science, moon landing hoax accusations, etc. for fear that it be sullied by its natural association with other high grade baloneys. Likewise with various alternative medicines showing up on this page.

So we're dealing with two issues here: one is people with not-so-laid-bare agendas trying to remove the association of their pet idea with the pseudoscience defamation despite the reliable sources which indicate it as such. Two is the issue of what amount of credulity we are applying to various sources. We have people active on this page who are disparaging some of the best sources we have and using arbcom rulings out-of-context (in the case of Quackwatch, for example) to say that we should look at scientific academy statements differently from the statements of individual scientists. Well, obviously, the people who are making these accusations have never looked deeply into how scientific academies make "statements". Rarely are they voted on in anything more than a committee sense and even that is ridiculous because, as our own article on scientific consensus and scientific community reads, there is no singular body that speaks for all scientists. Nor does there have to be. We can rely on individual scientists to comment on pseudoscience as they see fit. Trying to make some segregation of sources is artificial and merely, as I see it, a way for POV-pushers to continue their campaigns to attempt to own various aspects of this encyclopedia.

ScienceApologist (talk) 04:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I am agree with ScienceApologist. Notable skeptic groups and notable scientists are reliable source. They represent the scientific consensus. Thus what they say is fact, not view. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:02, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

No, we're dealing with fuzzy logic. An example of your syllogism above ("Some aspect of foo is pseudoscientific" is linguistically equivalent to saying "foo is pseudoscientific".) is: "Quantum mysticism is an interpretation of physics"; "Quantum mysticism is pseudoscience"; therefore "Physics is pseudoscience". (Cold fusion would work here, too.)

1. Because a particular interpretation or aspect of a subject is considered to be pseudoscientific does not imply the whole subject can be so considered.
2. Because one individual opinion classifies a subject in a particular way does not mean that there is consensus on the subject, especially when there are contradictory opinions (or evidence) of equal notability.

Do remember that meteorites were declared to be pseudoscientific by one of the greatest scientific authorities of the late 19th century. This is opinion, not scientific evidence, and the two should be clearly demarcated. Hgilbert (talk) 11:28, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you should think about what you are saying. Even if quantum mysticism is an "interpretation of physics", the fact that physics is in the predicate means your attempt at a syllogism represents the fallacy of the undistributed middle. Comparing that to my example, which says that some aspect of foo is pseudoscience therefore foo is pseudoscience is quite different. What you are saying is something like "some aspect of foo is pseudoscience", "bar is an aspect of foo", "therefore bar is pseudoscience". Yeah, that's a fallacy, but it is manifestly NOT logically equivalent to my point. In short, the comparison belies predicate logic. Now, as for your meteorite issue, I have to say that if Misplaced Pages were written in the 19th century, meteorites would certainly appear on this list. Misplaced Pages changes as reliable sources change. That's the beauty of this encyclopedia. WP:V explicitly says that the standard is reliability and not truth. Now that myself and others have dispatched your erroneous arguments, would you like to try again to explain how a two-tiered system of pseudoscience is supported by reliable sources? ScienceApologist (talk) 15:33, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

See above; my point is, indeed, that both syllogisms are fallacies, yet are used to justify topics' inclusion here. Hgilbert (talk) 16:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

No, the first isn't a syllogism: it is a statement about the character of pseudoscience. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:45, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

A major problem here is highlighted by this comment from Otolemur crassicaudatus: "Notable skeptic groups...are reliable source. They represent the scientific consensus. Thus what they say is fact, not view." No true scientist would ever agree with this statement. For one thing, take a look at the spokespeople from some of the notable skeptical groups: one of CSICOP's front men is James Randi, a professional magician, NOT a scientist. Sure, he sometimes makes sense, but how can the statements of a professional magician be taken as reflecting scientific consensus, first off, and then expanded to fact? Quite simply, the designation of an idea as pseudoscientific does not represent a factual explanation of that concept, as per the meteorite example above, and the example of hypnosis recognised in the list itself. Scientific theories change constantly, that is the nature of science. To label a thing as "factually" pseudoscientific is a hyper-conservative approach that defames (as recognised by ScienceApologist above) and stifles scientific progress.Wikigonish (talk) 17:04, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Randi is an expert in investigating claims that defy scientific consensus about physics, chemistry, and other sciences directly affecting reality. He's considered so much of an expert that he was hired by Nature to review claims of water memory by certain credulous scientists and came back with a report that blew their credulity out of the water. Just because someone doesn't have a PhD doesn't mean they are useless. And also, our goal here should not be to attempt to characterize scientific consensus about what constitutes a "pseudoscience". As I point out above, this is really a meaningless exercise in original research, forbidden by Misplaced Pages. What we should do is report the opinions of reliable sources about what is pseudoscience. Reliable sources, I might add, are reliable by reputation not by credentialism. Brian David Josephson has some pretty impressive credentials, but his credulity has been criticized from enough corners to make his position as a reliable source on many of these subjects to be questioned. Therefore we don't use him. Randi, on the other hand, is a good source for skepticism and evidence-based proposals, though ironically for our conversation he is actually quite cautious about not calling things "pseudoscience". For that reason, I think that disparaging him on this page is a bit of a red herring.

I think what we can say is that when something is considered by reliable sources to be a pseudoscience, this is a fact. This is the only fact that is relevant for this page. I think that we need to avoid any further demarcation as to how "authoritative" the source is. We have a standard for authority here: it's called WP:RS. If the source calling something a pseudoscience is found to be reliable for making such a claim, then we list the pseudoscience here. We can include the appropriate caveats and argumentations as well. Reliable sources we have a-plenty and their continual disparagement here is extremely problematic.

ScienceApologist (talk) 17:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Ayurveda‎

I am puzzled to see Ayurveda‎ is not considered a pseudoscience in wikiepdia. This branch of alternative medicine relies on the concept of Tridosha system which has no scientific basis. Can anyone add it in this list? One can quickly review these two references . Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 19:23, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

 Done I also used this review of an anthropological book as a source --Enric Naval (talk) 16:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The list itself mentions how religious systems ought not be considered pseudoscientific, yet several religious systems are on the list, and this latest one is being added despite ongoing debate on the quality of the list itself. Yet another example of the flaws of this list.Wikigonish (talk) 17:13, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

1. Moore, Timothy (2001). Primal Therapy. Gale Group. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

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