Talk:Cyrus Cylinder - Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ChrisO~enwiki (talk | contribs) at 07:48, 10 September 2008 (→Tags: - please bring issues here to be resolved; don't just jump in and delete stuff based on your personal POV). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Loaned to Iran

I wonder if, once the page is unprotected, the sentence 'According to a recent report, directors of British Museum and National Museum of Iran in Tehran have reached an agreement whereby the Cyrus Cylinder will be displayed in National Museum of Iran.' could be reworded? Apart from needing a few basic grammar tweaks, and some clarification as to when this 'recent report' was (there have been stories about the cylinder being loaned to Iran circulating since 2004), the 'displayed' bit could do with being clarified. Is the cylinder being returned (seems unlikely given that the museum is legally prohibited from doing so (viz the Elgin Marbles controversy) or merely loaned, and if the latter, is this actually the case, since all of the sources are Iranian based, and there hasn't been any mention of this in any other sources, nor any announcements by the British Museum, etc. Benea (talk) 16:42, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

To follow up, I've had a reply from the British Museum. They have been working on negotiations to loan it for a second time (the first was in 1971) for a special exhibition, but so far nothing has been finalised. The reports in the Iranian news agencies are probably somewhat influenced by patriotic bluster about 'returning' (the British Museum is prohibited by law from actually returning items) the cylinder. This could probably do with being clarified in the article, and a more neutrally worded statement about the two museums working on trying to arrange a loan for a special exhibition, since these reports have been around for the last four or five years. Benea (talk) 19:48, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Critics of the second theory

The second theory, against the cylinder as a human rights document, indeed is criticized. The objection against providing readers with one paragraph on critics of the second is baseless. I don't think that that the second theory is such a perfect theory that we can't mention anything against it.--Larno Man (talk) 23:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Back to old version

I reverted this awful, new version to the one of the locked article. The change wasn't approved. The old version begins to look much better, at least in comparison. 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

You come back after one month and another disruptive mass-revert. You cant revert because you do not like one view. NPOV means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. Do you want to censor the critics of the your loved views just because you don't like them.--Larno (talk) 04:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Where were you? You failed to discuss and just come back and do your disruptive mass-revert and your slurs with racial contents. This is not the way of making consensus. State your concerns clearly and be specific. Which part should be imprioved? What sentences? Which reference? Why? What is your suggestion. You get nowhere by general remarks such as I do not like it, it is awful, you are nationalist. --Larno (talk) 04:29, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

This is getting too much. There was no failure to discuss, but simple persistence from a couple of editors. Even the locked version wasn't agreed upon so you decided to edit it into your awful, preferred one (that makes perfect sense). We've been through all this, the arguments are up there. 3rdAlcove (talk) 09:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I did the last edits(prior to your major revertion), if you'd care to check. I found the article difficult to read, so I improved the wording. Take Dbachmann's advice and get over your nationalistic agenda. Kansas Bear (talk) 14:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Wrong person you're addressing. I asked Dbachmann to take a look. 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:47, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

guys, you need to try to improve the article. If you just keep insisting on a fixed version, the problem won't go away. There are huge issues with this article that neither of you even bothers to address. I've tried to refactor it into something a little more presentable. My main points are

discuss the actual cylinder first, and various interpretation, or its role in popular culture etc. at the end of the article
the full quote of the translation of the text is excessive, and probably even problematic in terms of copyright.
we don't need six consecutive footnotes establishing that the thing has been dubbed "the world's first declaration of human rights". Especially if half of them are rather dubious. Just keep the best one or two references and dump the others
this isn't a pissing context, or a matter of national pride. We are discussing an Iron Age document. As such this is a matter of ancient history and has nothing whatsoever to do with current nations, states or politics.

--dab (𒁳) 12:12, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

ok, sigh, you've been edit-warring all this time, and you still failed to make clear what this is all about? Namely, a complete recentism of two newspaper articles reporting on the 1971 Pahlavi propaganda stunt, and redneck Iranian nationalists writing angry retorts? This is such a recentism, a brief online flareup of patriotic sentiment with notability confined exclusively to Iranian blogs in July 2008. Can we please put this to rest now? Or perhaps you want to go over to Talk:300 (film) to vent some more patriotic spleen? (no, that has ceased to be interesting after if fell out of the blogs about four months ago, hasn't it) --dab (𒁳) 12:59, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

If you are really looking for a constructive discussion you should get over your western centric mindset as well. Maybe it is not intentional but do you notice that you guys become soft to everything Greek and many people here even can't hide their satisfaction when they hear something against east and they should stand and applaud. --Larno (talk) 00:32, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Larno, once again, the section you keep re-adding is WP:SYNTH. The statement "The second group of writers used the flawed translation of Nabonidus Chronicle by A.K. Grayson to analyze and interprete the cylinder statements." comes from here, but even then indirectly. As long as no source makes such statements, you can't synthesize elements to make one, yourself. The last sentence "Moreover, these writers are criticized for Western centric approach to human rights and fallacy of the notion that human rights are so Western in its philosophical underpinnings that it can't have Eastern roots" is not even specifically about the Cylinder. You just took a random book that has Eurocentrism as its general thesis. And so on, and so on. Nice argument, by the way; so much for "racial(sic) slurs". 3rdAlcove (talk) 00:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

The statement "The second group of writers used the flawed translation of Nabonidus Chronicle by A.K. Grayson to analyze and interprete the cylinder statements." is not WP:SYNTH. It is clearly discussed by Cyrus Kar and Farrokh ].

The last sentence "Moreover, these writers are criticized for Western centric approach to human rights and fallacy of the notion that human rights are so Western in its philosophical underpinnings that it can't have Eastern roots" is the direct answer to this sentence on the 2nd paragraph "The concept of "human rights" is an anachronism alien to the historical context of the Iron Age"--Larno (talk) 01:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Larno, you obviously have no idea what "human rights" even are. They are different from the concept of just being nice to people, or of pleasing the gods by being righteous, which are concepts indeed as old as the hills, and which is what Cyrus presents himself as doing. I will thank you to stop this childish campaign now. If the Spiegel isn't an appropriate source for this, then online "refutations" of the Spiegel article sure as hell aren't. This is a non-issue. --dab (𒁳) 09:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Many human rights activists including peace Noble prize winners consider the Cylinder a human rights documents. Or you mean all those people in UN who accepted to exhibit the cylinder as a human rights documents had no idea about human rights. By your rational Athen wasn't the first democratic state in the history as well. Obviously it was far from what we expect from a democracy. You look at the issue from the the perspective of a 21st century man.--Larno (talk) 14:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

You clearly suffer from Occidentalism. I find it funny that you should accuse me of an anachronistic viewpoint. I haven't even mentioned Athens, so you are clearly arguing at some sort of stereotype "Western-centrist" in your head instead of talking to me. We get it, you like Iran. Is there anything pertinent you have to say though? dab (𒁳) 15:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what the problem is. If the information has sources, why is everyone so bent out of shape? It's quite apparent that the Cylinder is a topic of dispute in the international academic community. Shouldn't we show both sides of the dispute and leave it up to the reader(s) to decide? Kansas Bear (talk) 16:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I am not occidentalist. This is a personal attack and reportable to admins. That is not the matter of patriotism. Both views on the Cylinder are provided and material are sourced but you want to push your favorit theory and can't stand any any other view.--Larno (talk) 18:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

And you said that I have the stereotype "Western-centrist" in my head instead of talking to you. Could you tell me how you are discussing your points? Did you argue any specific sentence or one specific part and tell me why it is wrong? You just use general words like: It is obviously wrong, you are nationalist..... Oh, wait! Wait! You did! You came out of the blue and angrily called me nationalist ] and called my draft an obvious crap without addressing to any specific sentence!--Larno (talk) 19:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

and yes you mass-revert my sourced entries for couple of times!

Disruptive mass-reverting

Thank you for showing me the civil way of discussion. You only agued two sentences and revert all of my edits. This is really disruptive. Do you think that we get anywhere by this type of behavior? Could you please stay Civil? How many times you should get blocked for incivility?--Larno (talk) 02:13, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Really funny:! This is your comment on Dab talkpage. "The problem is that some people either don't get it or simply don't want to. Discussion, and even compromise, mean nothing." Could you tell me how many times you discussed your points before vandalizing, edit warring and reverting the page. --Larno (talk) 02:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Larno, please drop it. So the Spiegel and the Daily Telegraph insulted Cyrus and in his person the nation of Iran in July 2008. Get over it. This is the article on the cyrus cylinder. Discuss the Iron Age, and keep out the childish modern day patriotism. --dab (𒁳) 09:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

It is not about those neo-con and right wing writers. Their political views don't matter on a historical issue. I simply want NPOV. Different views should be addressed here. lol, I am sure if the cylinder was a Greek documents your view was 180 degree different. The lead that you wrote was simply OR. Sack of Babylon?

As I am human and prone to mistakes, I might be wrong, however I see the flag of Greece waving in Olympic games which supposedly should lead nations towards friendship and non-racism. Seems so much for the Ancient Olympic Games in which only free Greek-speaking men could participate! When we review the history of women's suffrage, it can be found that even in 1959, the majority of men in a western country were against it, while in a part of the history of the East, women could "vote" nearly 1300 years before that. Okay, we might not call that "vote" as you call Cyrus's conduct being only "nice to people". However I think none were just being nice. They were more than that, because you could not find nearly the same behavior in the contemporary times and sometimes down to modern times. It seems to me there are serious issues about this article that should be resolved before talking about Misplaced Pages rules of sources and alike. It seems we should wash our eyes a little. For example, 300 was not just a "Film" as some like to call it, it was more than that (Please note that I am not daft to mistake "Film" with "non-Film"). Look at this for example : there is a quote cited from here: . To my surprise the former doesn't have the bracket: "", but the latter has. Based on the quote, some Wikipedians have been enthusiastic enough to attribute the massacre to Cyrus! Remembers me the Spiegel author and others who live in the aura of the wrong translation of "Nabonidus Chronicle". I haven't edited the quote so that others could see for themselves what is happening. As you might call this talk of mine as irrelevant here, I think even "Nabonidus Chronicle" is not off-topic regarding the before-mentioned "serious issues" of Western-centrism which is circulating here about Cyrus Cylinder.--Raayen (talk) 15:06, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

what, pray, about the "sack of Babylon" do you propose is OR?

Sigh, so the patriots have taken over. Have fun, I'll be back and clean up the mess in a couple of months. Raayen, your defense of "the East" has some merit (although hardly in points of personal liberty), but the point is that this isn't the place for it. This is the article on the Cyrus cylinder, not for your views on the East/West paradigm in general. FOr the record, your allegations of "Western-centrism" are ideological nonsense. Your claim of "women's suffrage" in the "East" makes about as much sense as calling the "Cyrus cylinder" a "human rights charter". Please be reasonable.

dab (𒁳) 15:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand why you insist to push your favorit view? It is not the place of Misplaced Pages's contributors to decide on behalf of readers which opinions are right and which ones are wrong. Two different views are addressed and sourced? Why you don't let reader read and decide?--Larno (talk) 18:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

see WP:UNDUE. dab (𒁳) 18:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Lead

The lead is supposed to summarise the main body text of the article (see WP:LEAD). It's not viable to have an article that spends a lot of time on interpretation and not mention that in the intro. It certainly isn't acceptable to remove all mainstream interpretations from the intro and leave only the dubious "human rights" stuff. If you don't like the summary that I've written, please modify it - don't delete it. -- ChrisO (talk) 07:31, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

thanks for your efforts, Chris. The "human rights" thing is still blown out of proportion. The article shoud just state, the Shah presented the copy to the UN in 1971, associating it with "human rights". The applicability of this term has been questioned. Period. This could be done in three or four lines. Allowing this to be expanded into a lengthy paragraph is a concession to our Iranian patriot zealots, nothing else. This article deals with the ancient artifact, all present-day political noise belongs removed to Iranian nationalism. --dab (𒁳) 08:06, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Please be polite and Assume good faith ! I don't think such sayings as "Iranian patriot zealots" is under the Misplaced Pages's roles . Thank you !--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I beg to point out that there is a huge difference between "civility" and "politeness". Confusion of the two, and of "friendliness", "meekness", "political correctness" etc. keep making WP:CIV the most misapplied policy on the project. If you have followed a few Iran-related disputes, you will realize that Iranian patriot zealots is an accurate description of a part of Misplaced Pages's editor demographics. Through no fault of mine or yours, that's just how it is. dab (𒁳) 15:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, indeed, but it's interesting to see how an ancient work of propaganda has been reused for modern propaganda purposes. As Neil MacGregor has pointed out, it's a bit ironic that the Shah promoted the cylinder as a human rights text when his own human rights record was not exactly exemplary. I might look at rewriting the "human rights" section to get the size down a bit, as some of it seems to be repeating statements made earlier in the article. I'm sure we can make the same points with fewer words. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I've rewritten that section as promised but ironically it's actually ended up being a bit longer than before. The story behind the "human rights" claim turns out to be rather interesting - not simply a random nationalist trope but part of a systematic campaign by the government of the former shah. -- ChrisO (talk) 13:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Chris, the article has indeed made progress since you intervened. There are still a lot of scare quotes, and quoting Farrokh is propably undue, but at least the section can now be read without cringing or eye-rolling. Now, I guess it would be proper to export a detailed discussion of the Pahlavi "nation building" campaign to Iranian nationalism, and keep only a brief summary and a wikilink in this article. The rationale being, it has become clear that the Cyrus cylinder has some relevance to the topic of Iranian nationalism, but this does not imply that Iranian nationalism has any relevance to the topic of the Cyrus cylinder. dab (𒁳) 15:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I've removed all the scare quotes I could find in that section - anything that's left in quotes is a direct quotation. Regarding moving that section, Iranian nationalism is in very poor shape and isn't really in any fit state to migrate content into. I'd suggest overhauling that article first, then migrating content. If this section was migrated at the moment, it would be marooned without any context. I'm also not sure it's fair to say that "Iranian nationalism has any relevance to the topic of the Cyrus cylinder". The Times describes the cylinder as being, symbolically, to Iran what the Elgin Marbles are to Greece - there is of course a lengthy discussion in Elgin Marbles of the repatriation controversy, which has a great deal to do with Greek nationalism. It seems reasonable to have a section in this article describing the cylinder's contemporary significance, particularly as this has a major bearing on how the inscription has been interpreted. -- ChrisO (talk) 15:24, 9 September 2008 (UTC)