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Residences

Well, they're the Queen's transitory residences which she doesn't own. If we agree that the Australian and Canadian Monarchy articles need to be shortened, then it is unimportant to mention that the Royal derriere occasionally rests on the vice-regal sofa.--Gazzster (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The section isn't called "The places the Queen stays in when she's in Australia," and it doesn't focus solely on that alone (in fact, by my reading the Queen's presence is actually a minimal part of the section). The residences are owned by the Crown and are there for the viceroys to live in while serving at Her Majesty's pleasure, so the subject matter is definitely relevant to this article. If you take it out, where else does it go? You can't just chuck it. --G2bambino (talk) 22:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The discussion here, has made me raise a point at Yarralumla's article. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

'Status quo stands when an edit is challenged'? Well, first of all, G2 should have regarded my edit as the status quo and withheld his own. Secondly, he should have logically reverted every edit for the last ten days or so. To be really logical, we should not edit anything, ever, until we have a consensus for edit. Come now, G2. Does the article suffer with the section ommitted? BHow important is it?--Gazzster (talk) 23:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Either you're being purposefully obtuse, Gazz, or you have a serious misunderstanding of how things work here. If you make an edit, and it is challenged by another editor, the status quo is the default while a discussion on the matter takes place (unless the status quo is a blatant offence to Misplaced Pages policies); something that has stood since July of last year can pretty much be taken as the status quo. Your other edits were not challenged, but this one was. So, please, explain to us why the section is not important, and answer my question as to where else it might go. Thanks. --G2bambino (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

OK gentlemen (G2 & Gazz), you're both at 2-reverts each & are hovering around the danger zone, be careful. GoodDay (talk) 00:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry. Its not worth gettin blocked for. Much more important things to be martyred for.--Gazzster (talk) 00:11, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Already have G2.--Gazzster (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Mmmm... nope. You haven't. --G2bambino (talk) 21:37, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

My first post in this section, friend. And the note accompanying my first edit. If I didn't say where the info should go, its because I believe it doesnt need to go anywhere.--Gazzster (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Remember too that in Aus 'Crown Land' is not property owned by the Crown, but by the government. Thus NSW Premier Bob Carr could (albeit controversially) advise the Governor to leave Government House and take over the house for the government's purposes.--Gazzster (talk) 22:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Your first point in this section doesn't address anything I said immediately thereafter. I'll take it you did read my words since, however, as you've now stated you don't think the information should go anywhere. Well, of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. The residences are primarily for the Australian monarch's representatives (who are covered in parts of this article, and so are obviously relevant to the subject matter), and are, like Crown Land, indeed property owned by the monarch, a.k.a. the Crown. One could say the Crown and the government are one and the same thing, depending on what you mean by "the government" (the Crown, the Cabinet, the full organization including parliament, the civil service, bureaucrats, etc.). Yes, the article does need some shortening, but not at the expense of quality or relevant content. Perhaps the history section could be given it's own article, à la History of monarchy in Canada, instead. --G2bambino (talk) 18:52, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

In Australia Crown Land is not owned by the Crown. If it were, it would mean governors and Governors-general could dispose of land as they wished. But they can't. Bob Carr didnt even let his own governor remain in his house. Does this article need shortening? Yes. (though Wiki advice on the matter is just that, not a mandate- there are a thousand more articles longer than this one)But the material here needs to be made more concise, shorn of repetition, trivialities, confusion, unverified facts(of which there remain many) and material which is not really important.Dividing into different articles only encourages repetition (because each article would have to be placed in context). A History of the Monarchy of Australia weould end up looking pretty much a repetition of this article, because it would include a description of the shared monarchy, the relationship between the monarchies, the monarch's constitutuional role, etc. --Gazzster (talk) 21:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you actually have a source for that claim? Crown Land is called Crown Land for one reason: it is land that belongs to the Crown. Technically the Queen, Governors, whomever, could dispose of the land as they wish, but, of course, constitutional convention dictates that they not do so without the advice of their ministers, as happened in the NSW Government House case you keep raising. So, unless you can prove that the residences belong to something other than the Crown, where else would info on them go other than here? --G2bambino (talk) 14:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

It would take me a while to find a source for something that is taken for granted here. Like finding a source for 'people eat fish n chips'. But I can if you like. Gimme a while; a few other things on the boil.--Gazzster (talk) 14:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Taken for granted is not the same as being true. --G2bambino (talk) 15:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Even without looking I can tell you that there is freehold land and crown land. Crown land is land owned by the government. It belongs to HM's government, not to the person of the Sovereign or to the institution. You are making a distinction between land owned by the government commissioned by the Sovereign and the Sovereign's private land. In Australia there is no such distinction. Vice-regal residences are built on crown land in the first sense, that is, belonging to the government.--Gazzster (talk) 20:52, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

And first para of this --Gazzster (talk) 21:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I am indeed making a distinction between land owned by the sovereign as an individual and land owned by the sovereign as the state; it is the latter that I'm talking about. Of course "the government" owns Crown Land, but "the government," in this instance, is "the Crown"; hence, Crown Land. --G2bambino (talk) 21:10, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

G2bambino, I just want to add here that you are showing severe confusion, and are misconstruing what Gazzster has written in your replies to his comments. He said: "You are making a distinction between land owned by the government commissioned by the Sovereign and the Sovereign's private land." His language is correct and he is correct that the Sovereign does not own Crown Land. You reply: "I am indeed making a distinction between land owned by the sovereign as an individual and land owned by the sovereign as the state". By the latter you mean Crown Land, but you have put words in Gazzster's mouth - the sovereign does not own Crown Land, either personally or otherwise, and you cannot change that just by asserting that it is true. In any case, the argument seems to have gone quiet since Matilda's post below. 86.9.201.247 (talk) 19:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The sovereign and the Crown are inseperable. If the Crown owns land, then the sovereign owns land. In a constitutional monarchy, however, there is a separation between land owned by the sovereign in right of the state, and the sovereign in a personal capacity; the latter can be bought and sold without advice, using the monarch's private funds, while the former can only, normally, be bought and sold on the advice of Cabinet, using funds raised by the Crown through taxes. It isn't all that complicated to figure out. --G2bambino (talk) 19:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The sovereign and the Crown are certainly separable. You are using the word "sovereign" to describe Queen Elizabeth II, a person. "The Crown" on the other hand is the government, and there are many different governments, so there are different "Crowns" in different countries, and even in different states of Australia. Queen Elizabeth II has no power or ownership over any of the land owned by any of the Crowns (governments). You yourself elaborate slightly on this above, but you make it sound like the Queen can say: "Hey I want you to sell all the vacant land in the Northern Territory in Australia, make it so, my puppet government". She can't. I agree that it isn't all that complicated, but you continue in your confusion. 86.9.201.247 (talk) 12:49, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

True.G2 seems to be intimating, whether he is aware of it or not, that EII is some kind of absolute monarch, only conceding power to her elected government. The monarchy in Australia is very different from the monarchy of the UK, Canada, or anywhere else. In Australia the monarchy exists in a different context. We do not have the same traditions and politics. The constitutional powers of the monarch reside in the Governor-general, so she does not enjoy the same prerogatives as she does in the UK. And anyway, she has no quasi-absolute powers in the UK, where the principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty reigns, as in Australia. She has no property rights in Australia, and this includes the vice-regal residences. If G2 would like to present us with a reference that describes them as the sovereign's residences, we should consider it. But they are always described as the vice-regal residences.--Gazzster (talk) 00:46, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I never made such an intimation, and I don't think I possibly could without seeming like an idiot; a monarch who lends his or her power to a cabinet is the very definition of a constitutional monarch, and thus could not be absolute. Lending, however, is not giving, so the Crown has not been removed from the sovereign's head to be collectively worn by the ministers in cabinet; "the government" is the Queen-in-Council, not the Council alone. Thus, the Crown's possessions are not the sole property of the government, either. As the Crown and the monarch certainly are inseperable, the Crown's possessions are the monarch's possessions as long as the monarch is on the throne, and they pass to the next sovereign upon the present one's demise, even though the monarch is directed by his or her ministers on how to acquire, run, and dispose of that property. Try and republicanise this all you want by claiming that the Queen is a figure completely absent from the Australian state and the Australian Crown is actually worn by Kevin Rudd, making him the owner of all state land as long as he's PM, but I'm certain you'll always be wrong as long as Australia is a monarchy. --G2bambino (talk) 03:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I would certainly not insult your intelligence. And it is your intelligence and wit that makes discussion with you enjoyable, on this and other points. The statement of respect out of the way, you demonstrated what I'm talking about when you state a monarch who lends his or her power to a cabinet is the very definition of a constitutional monarch, and thus could not be absolute. We seem to have differing understandings of what a constitutional monarch. Constitutional monarchy in nations of Anglo-Celtic origin are underlined by the principle of Parliamentary sovereignty. Some who are interested in the Anglo-Celtic realms here at Wiki seem to misappreciate this principle. Some seem to think that it means the Crown has conceded its ancient powers to Parliament and binds itself to honour that concession perpetually. Not so. Supreme power actually belongs to Parliament, in Australia, Canada, Papua NG, etc, as in the UK, where the Mother of all Parliaments sits.It is Parliament that recognises the Sovereign as an integral part, and not the other way around. So Sovereignty is not even shared between Parliament and Sovereign, because Parliament and Sovereign are one. There is not even a distinction of sovereignty between Parliament and monarch. This point is explicitly stated in the Constitution of the Commonwealth, as in other that of other constitutional monarchies.

So you see, it is not a matter of the monarch 'lending' his or her authority, because the authority is not absolutely the monarch's to lend.But if it is maintained that power is ultimately the monarch's, which she 'lends' to his or her Parliament and cheif minister: yes, indeed, what is being described is an absolute monarchy. One states thereby that all power resides in the monarch. And this is not the case.

This has important implications. The Crown is not, as you say, the institution of monarchy alone, but the legal expression of the principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty in which the monarch plays an integral part. No, of course Kevin Rudd does not own land in Australia, but neither does the monarch. Rather, the expression 'Crown Land' means land subject to the Sovereignty of Parliament properly understood. Republican sentiment doesn't come into it.--Gazzster (talk) 11:46, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, thank you, Gazz, for affirming that I am not an idiot; I do wonder, sometimes!

But, you've just talked about parliament and the Crown, whereas, all the preceeding discussion centred around the government, which is the Crown-in-Council. I can see how all this gets murky; the Crown-in-Council is the government, but he Crown is also one of the three parts of parliament, while the Council (cabinet) only rests with the approval of another part of parliament. Yet, if we break it down, it isn't all that complicated. The parliament is the expression of the will of the people, yet it still sits and operates under the authority of the Crown (symbolised in the mace), and its members are all loyal to the monarch. Conversely, the monarch is given all executive authority through legislation passed by the parliament (or common law unchanged by parliament). In fact, it says explicitly in the constitution of Canada that the Queen is the government, and she is to be advised by her Privy Council. All the rest - Cabinet, ministers, advice, confidence of the house, etc., etc. - is convention. So, I'd be interested to hear if you think that Canada is therefore an absolute monarchy. I don't think it is. It seems to me that the entire arrangement is somewhat cyclical: the people (represented in parliament) have given the monarch all the powers of state, and the monarch uses those powers to govern the people. This is why it's commonly accepted that in a monarchy the monarch is the state; in a constitutional monarchy, the people have made it that way. So, as long as there's a sovereign of Australia, it is he or she who owns Crown Land in that country; nobody else has the ability to acquire, run, or dispose of it. --G2bambino (talk) 14:05, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think you may still misunderstand what I'm saying. It seems to me that you are still describing a nation governed under the principle of Monarchical Sovereignty. '..It's commonly accepted that in a monarchy the monarch is the state'. I'd question how common that actually is. And it sounds like Louis XIV ('L'etat ce'st moi'), not Elizabeth II.AS I've said, Sovereignty is vested not in the monarch alone, but in Parliament, of which the monarch forms an integral part: The legislative power of the Commonwealth shall be vested in a Federal Parliament, which shall consist of the Queen, a Senate, and a House of Representatives, and which is herein-after called "The Parliament," or "The Parliament of the Commonwealth".(Const, Ch1,part1, sec.1)Of course the Queen, represented by a Governor-General, is the executive. But don't confuse the Executive with the fount of Sovereignty. The executive, as the name implies, executes the will of the Legislature. It is not necessarily the fount of Sovereignty. So in all nations of the Westminster tradition the monarch performs two roles: first, she forms part of Parliament, elected by the people, and with it, and not apart from it, constitutes the Sovereign Body of state. She is also the executive. Where the monarch is both the sole principle of sovereignty and the executive, we have an absolute monarchy. This is because, by definition, the executive is utterly unaccountable to any institution. But this is not the case in the Westminster tradition. It's dignity lies in the principle that the executive is ultimately responsible to Parliament and the will of the people. And you can't call the Queen 'the government'. In the UK a distinction is made between the Queen and the government by the phrase 'Her Majesty's Government'. If there is anything republican in this, as you suggest, it is a glory, not a shame. And indeed, the UK has been described as a 'crowned republic' many times, not the least by Alfred Tennysson.

It doesn't really help to make a distinction between the Cabinet-in Council and ther Queen-in-Parliament, for it is the latter, not the former, which is the Fount of Sovereignty.So the Queen as executive does not 'own' land. Parliament owns land, though I'm not sure 'own' is the correct word. Has supreme dominion over is perhaps a better phrase. And of course, this does not consider questions of Native Land Title, a principle which has recently come into the fore.--Gazzster (talk) 14:56, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, truthfully, I really don't know where you're getting this "parliament is the state" idea from. The parliament is still subject to the authority of the monarch: if parliament doesn't vote on a budget or otherwise denies funds for the executive, the monarch (or viceroy) can dissolve that parliament and call an election. Further, acts passed by parliament have zero effect until granted Royal Assent by the monarch (or viceroy). Still, this doesn't mean we're necessarily diverging in our opinions: I would say that sovereignty rests with the people, but the people have placed that sovereignty in the hands of the monarch to hold and protect it for them; hence, the term "Crowned republic," which I can somewhat support, as Westminster style parliamentary democracies under constitutional monarchies are, by all definitions, republican. Still, as long as the people place the powers of state in the monarch, the monarch owns the state's lands; perhaps "owns" is a bit of a misnomer, but it is, as I've said repeatedly, the sovereign alone who has the power to acquire, maintain, and sell those lands; parliament does not. So, the Government Houses of Australia belong to the Queen as Queen of Australia, she whom Australians still allow to own and run their state for them. They certainly do not belong to parliament, which has no ability to purchase, run, or dispose of those buildings. --G2bambino (talk) 15:46, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say Parliament is the state exactly. The state is the complex of various authorities deriving their authority from Parliament, or, should I say, the Constitution which established Parliament. For now that I get into this, I remember that we have separation of powers here; we have a High Court distinct from Parliament that can rule on the constitutionality of Parliament's Acts. This is something which the UK does not have. So the Constitution, not an Act of Parliament, must be the supreme law. In the UK, of course, the Parliament is not constrained in what it may enact.

I see we agree then, sort of, on a couple of points. But you still miss, if I may say, the essential point; the monarch alone does not hold the land. Remember ch.1, p.1,sec1? The Parliament is the Queen, the H. of Reps and the Senate, acting as one. It is, if you like, a monarch with three heads.The Queen cannot act alone. To acquire, own and dispose land implies an act of Sovereignty. Sovereign acts can be performed by Parliament alone.--Gazzster (talk) 16:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I saw your excerpt from the Australian constitution; but, it only speaks of legislative authority. That is but one part of the functioning of the state. Yes, there are many more parts to it - the courts, the military, the police, the cabinet, etc. - but all those branches converge on one person: the Queen, because it is her authority, granted to her by the people, by which all those institutions operate. This includes Crown Land. One could say Crown Land belongs to the people, but it is all still handed over by the people to the Queen for her to hold and operate; the parliament cannot purchase, maintain, or dispose of it, nor can the Cabinet, or the military, or the courts. Only the Queen, or her viceroy, can. --G2bambino (talk) 16:47, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you keep saying that. But if legislative authority is not the subject of Sovereignty, what is? There are three powers in Aust. government: legislative, executive, judicial. The Sovereign is part of the first; is (vicariously) the second. You seem to be speaking of a fourth power which the Constitution is silent about.--Gazzster (talk) 16:55, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I keep repeating it because it is true, and it is central to this discussion. I'll also repeat that the sovereign is part of all three institutions of government in Australia: parliament (Queen-in-Parliament), executive (Queen-in-Council), and judiciary (Queen-on-the-Bench). These are not "powers," they are organizations that exercise power, that power which belongs to the one constant throughout all three elements of governance; the monarch. Of course, we've already established that the difference, therefore, between constitutional monarchy and absolute monarchy is that the sovereign in the former has stepped back and left decisions on how to exercise that power to parliamentarians, ministers, and judges. But that doesn't mean the power is no longer hers and now somehow belongs to any of those three groups. As I said, Kevin Rudd does not wear the Australian Crown (despite what he thinks), and nor does the Chief Justice of the High Court, or the members of parliament. Hence, it is Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Australia (or Tasmania, or WA) who is a respondent in court cases, not the parliament of Australia; it is to the Queen of Australia that oaths of allegiance are given, not the parliament of Australia; it is the Queen of Australia who employs all government agents, not the parliament of Australia (if its the same as Canada, and I can't see why it wouldn't be). So, the government houses must be owned by someone; I say that as she is the state it is the Queen who owns them (only as sovereign and not as a private individual). If that isn't the case, then who exactly is it? --G2bambino (talk) 21:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The big question? Is Australia a constitutional monarchy or not. GoodDay (talk) 22:22, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. G2, you appear to contradict yourself, for at one point you concede that in a constitutional monarchy Sovereignty is derived from the People. But on the other hand you maintain that the monarch is the sole source of Sovereignty. This, despite the fact that Parliamentary Sovereignty, not Monarchical Sovereignty, is the bedrock of the Westminster system. The Constitution of Papua New Guinea goes so far as to explicitly state that the Constituent Assembly has asked the Queen to act as Head of State. In other words, the Constituent Assembly does not derive its authority from her. The Australian Constitution is not as explicit, but nevertheless continues to enshrine the principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty. 'Sovereignty' means exactly that. Either the Parliament, consisting of the Houses and the Sovereign as a single entity, is Sovereign, or it is not. I take it you do not deny that principle, but you seem to be trying to maintain the Sovereignty of the monarch alone. The monarch is the head of state. So yes, oaths of allegiance are made to her. But the fullness of Sovereignty does not necessarily repose in the head of state. THe President of the United Statesis H of S, vbut Sovereignty does not repose in him. You seem to be saying that while the Queen is an integral part of the legislative branch of government, she stands above all as the sole repository of power.And if you are indeed stating that the Monarch is the sole Fount of Sovereignty, you are describing an absolute monarchy. The fact that her ministers actually govern does not make it a constitutional monarchy. According to you, the constitution is nothing more than a means of exercising the royal prerogative. So the Constitution has no independent standing. If, as you say, all state power, which must include Parliament, the Judiciary and the Constitution itself, is derived from the monarch, it remains theoretically possible for the monarch to return any or all of that power to herself. There would be no true freedom because the Constitution could not stand by itself. In other words, it would not be inviolable.This is most certainly not the case with the United Kingdom and its unwritten Constitution. And as I've asked before, if it is not the case in the UK, how can it be so in Australia? The Queen is not 'the state', as you maintain. Of course she represents the state. THe state is a far more complex thing.--Gazzster (talk) 23:04, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm hardly contracticting myself. I thought I made it clear, but perhaps I haven't; so, I'll make another attempt: in a constitutional monarchy, sovereignty rests with the people, but they place that sovereignty in the hands of the monarch. The organs of government sit in between the monarch and the people, I suppose. That makes the sovereign the personification of the state. I ask again, therefore: someone owns the government houses; if it isn't the sovereign, then who is it? --G2bambino (talk) 23:48, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The taxpayers (i.e. the people). GoodDay (talk) 20:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Those who don't pay taxes aren't part of "the people"? --G2bambino (talk) 22:44, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not comfortable with 'personification'. 'Representative' or 'embodiment' might be a more suitable word. But a representative or 'personification', if you like, does not necessarily own the goods of the state. The President of the United States does not own the property of the United States; the CEO of a corporation does not own the assets of the corporation.--Gazzster (talk) 05:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

OK

OK, but I would rather put it: Sovereignty rests with the People. They do not abdicate that sovereignty, but delegate its exercise to the Commonwealth Parliament for three years and to the State Parliaments, mostly for four years. The Parliaments, that is, properly understand, of which the monarch is an integral part. It is more correct to state that the exercise of Sovereignty rests with the Parliaments, not the monarch alone. So ultimately the vice-regal residences belong to People. But we don't use that language. Rather we say they belong to the Commonwealth, in the case of Governors-general and Administrators, or the respective State in the case of Governors.--Gazzster (talk) 03:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No, of course the people don't abdicate their sovereignty; as we've established long ago: the realms are constitutional monarchies, not absolute ones. However, what they have done is establish a contractual relationship wherein the exercise, and protection, of their sovereignty is placed with the monarch, who then becomes a servant of the people. As the holder of all the state's power and sovereignty, the sovereign becomes the personification of the state, and therefore the person who "owns" its physical manifestations: the land, waterways, buildings, infrastructure, economy, and the like. Of course, "owns" is a bit of a stretch; you and I both know EIIR doesn't own Australia in the sense that it's her personal property. It is, though, something maybe akin to a trusteeship; the Queen collects the taxes and maintains peace and order in the land at the request of the Australian people, passing that territory and that duty on to her successor when she dies. So, of course "Crown Land" is synonymous with "public land"; it's financed by the public's money, after all. But to whom is that tax money paid? The Queen. Who signs off on purchases or sales of that land? The Queen. Who may use that land? The Queen's subjects (even those who don't pay her taxes). Whose laws govern that land? The Queen's. Whose, then, are the government houses, again? --G2bambino (talk) 22:43, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with most of the first part of your response. Of course, we are both stepping into an area where lawyers expend a lot of hot air. So there are bound to be grey areas. Even so, I'm not comfortable with equating the Crown with the person of the Sovereign. 'The Crown' in Westminster tradition, is Parliament and Queen, for the two are inseparable.

Throughout the Commonwealth realms The Crown is an abstract metonymic concept which represents the legal authority for the existence of any government. It evolved naturally as a separation of the literal crown and property of the nation-state from the person and personal property of the monarch.

The Crown

Otherwise you cannot avoid treating the Sovereign as a source of jurisdiction in his or her own right. If one does the latter, a two-headed beast is created; a state whose head is Parliament and whose other is the Queen. You are not, of course, saying that.But it does seem to me that your line of reasoning leads you to a contradictory conclusion: a Sovereign Parliament and a Sovereign Queen whose authority is supreme and inviolable. You have stated as much, claiming that the Queen has authority over Parliament. That is contradictory because there cannot, by definition, be two Sovereign authorities.

We have already established that to say the Crown,'owns' public land is an imperfect way of saying that the particular moral entity in question possesses rights of jurisdiction over a piece of land which may include the right of occupation, disposal, drawing income from, renting, leasing or sale thereof. This land is in the general keep of the State, as opposed to private land, which is under the particular jurisdiction of an individual, trust, corporation or some other moral person. So to say, 'the Crown owns Government House in Adelaide' is ambiguous. It could mean 'the State', of which the monarchy is an integral part, owns Government House', in which case there is no particular merit in stating the fact, seeing as they are not royal residences, but vice-regal ones. You may quite as easily as with just as much accuracy state that the Crown owns all public buildings in Australia. Again, there is no particular merit in doing so. Or it could mean that the Queen as a private person or as an institution 'owns' the site as pivate property.But you already acknowledge this is not the case. So we really need to ask ourselves how accurate or meritorious is it to state that the Crown (not the Queen) owns the vice-regal residences? Let's remember that this article is about the institution of monarchy in Australia considered in itself, abstracted from its constitutional context.--Gazzster (talk) 00:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are some overlaps in the system that are bound to cause confusion, but I don't think there's much vaguery around the point of the sovereign and the crown being inseperable; in fact, section 35 of chapter I-21 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1985 states: "Her Majesty" , "His Majesty" , "the Queen", "the King" or "the Crown" means the Sovereign of the United Kingdom, Canada and Her other Realms and Territories, and Head of the Commonwealth, a definition that is repeated in the Interpretation Acts of various provinces. That alone proves that government houses in Canada are owned by the Queen; I can't imagine why Australia would be different in that regard. It seems to me, Gazz, that you think Australia is different due to confusion between 'legislatie authority and all authority, as though parliament had no limits. I never said parliament is sovereign - it is not bound by its predecessors, and the actions therein cannot be judged by the courts, but it's actions - in terms of the laws it produces - are subject to judicial review, and can be struck down by the courts. It was the people whom I said were sovereign, and they pass that sovereignty to the Queen to exercise and protect for them. As it is she, and not parliament, who embodies the state, it is she who owns the government houses as long as she is on the throne. --G2bambino (talk) 18:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

G2bambio: You are really getting yourself into a bind. Responding directly to various assertions/rhetorical questions in your most recent post above:

the Queen collects the taxes ... at the request of the Australian people....

Wrong. See Royal_Prerogative.

But to whom is that tax money paid? The Queen.

Wrong. See Royal_Prerogative.

Who signs off on purchases or sales of that land? The Queen.

Wrong. See Royal_Prerogative.

Who may use that land? The Queen's subjects (even those who don't pay her taxes).

Wrong. Australian citizens are not British subjects (and nor for that matter are British citizens anymore).

Whose laws govern that land? The Queen's.

Wrong.

Whose, then, are the government houses, again?

Not the Queen's! 86.9.201.247 (talk) 03:35, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

The only thing I'm bound by is facts, not arbitrary blurts of opinion. --G2bambino (talk) 18:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

(indent removed) The residence is that of the Governor-General and is always described as that, not of the queen. For example from the website of the Governor General - In 1909, the site for the Federal capital was finally decided and thereafter the large Campbell holdings were resumed. At the time of acquisition the Government had no clear plans for the future of the homestead at Yarralumla. However, the suggestion to use Yarralumla for a temporary residence for the Governor-General was first made as early as 1911. ... In 1921 the Federal Capital Advisory Committee proposed that Yarralumla should be refurbished to provide temporary accommodation for the Governor-General pending the construction of a new permanent residence. It was not until January 1925 that Federal Cabinet finally agreed to fit out Yarralumla for its new vice-regal function. Work was started on enlarging the Yarralumla of those days to house the Governor-General. Please note housing the GG not the Queen - there is no mention anywhere of it being the Queen's house. Again from the GG website: Yarralumla, the Australian Governor-General’s official residence. From the Australiana Fund website : Government House ... has been the official residence of the Governor-General in Canberra since 1927 ... The Queen stays at Government House when she visits Canberra as do some visiting Heads of State from various countries. I think the onus is for those who wish to dispute the fact that it is not an official residence of the Queen to come up with a cite from a reliable source that states it is and not the synthesis of some arguments (which is against policy) to suggest otherwise. --Matilda 21:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Parliamentary Sovereignty as opposed to Sovereignty of the Monarch alone

I should like to see a source for this extraordinary claim that the People delegate their power to the Sovereign alone, as opposed to Parliament (consisting of Sovereign, House of Reps and Senate). In saying that Parliamentary Sovereignty is the principle of government in Australia I am citing the Government’s own website. http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/sys_gov.html Not, indeed, that I feel I should need to. If the People are Sovereign, and Parliament represents the People, then Parliament is Sovereign?! Sounds logical to me. You are right that Parliament is not free to make any law it wishes. The High Court may indeed review or even strike down its laws if they are unconstitutional, illegal or invalid. The Constitution is the Supreme Law. But that does not mean that Parliament is not Sovereign, because Sovereignty does not necessarily imply unfettered power. It may mean, as in this case, that the supreme law-making power is vested in the Sovereign authority, albeit limited by a Constitution in what it may enact. I am also fascinated by your attempt to separate the legislative power from the Sovereign power. If power to legislate is not indicative of Sovereignty, what is? If the Queen is Sovereign (or, as you say, alone, and not with Parliament, represents the People) , but has no power to legislate in her own right, what does Sovereignty mean? Note that I am not saying the Queen has no place in the Sovereign Body. She does. Our Constitution says so.--Gazzster (talk) 00:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Not sure who that was addressed to. I think I agree with you, though. The monarch is the Sovereign, but she does not have sovereign power. Sovereign power is wielded by the Parliament (representing the people), of which the monarch is but one of three elements. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:15, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

To G2Bambino, a continuation of the discussion above. The Royal supremacy does however have disturbingly common advocates across the monarchy-related pages.--Gazzster (talk) 00:01, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Future change in relation to succession

As I read it, the sub-section Monarchy_of_Australia#Future_Change seems to contain much original research or synthesis. It is inadequately referenced. I think it should be removed unless reliable sources can be cited in support of the arguments contained therein.--Matilda 03:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

For the time being I have commented out the bulk of the discussion and requested a citation for the lead --Matilda 03:54, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I say feel free to delete the whole section.--Gazzster (talk) 09:47, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The whole section contradicts WP:CRYSTAL! --Cameron (t|p|c) 14:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

"The Australian monarch, besides reigning in Australia, separately serves as monarch for each of fifteen other Commonwealth countries known as Commonwealth realms." - should read - Elizabeth II , besides reigning in Australia... etc. Otherwise it sounds like the Australian monarch reigns in the other fifteen Commonwealth countries ! Lejon (talk) 04:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC) Lejon 25 May 08

Er, the Australian monarch does reign in the other fifteen Commonwealth countries. Unless Australia has a different EIIR than the rest of us. Though I do see that there might be some unnecessary repetition in the sentence. --G2bambino (talk) 04:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Elizabeth herself reigns in 15 other Commonwealth countries but not as the Australian monarch ie ' Queen of Australia ' which is a completely separate legal and constitutional office . The paragraph in the article is technicaly correct because it uses the word 'separately ' but an 'outsider' reading[REDACTED] could easily get the impression that it is the Australian monarch ( Q of A ) that reigns in those other countries .Lejon (talk) 23:30, 25 May 2008 (UTC) 26May 08

Well, though I might agree with you, what's here now was the result of a lengthy and turbulent debate about whether or not the British monarch reigned in any other country besides the United Kingdom. It was decided by others that the British monarch somehow did reign outside of the UK; so, it had to follow that, conversely, the Canadian/Tuvaluan/Barbadian/Australian/etc. monarch reigned in the United Kingdom and other Commonwealth realms. Unfortunately, consensus does not always bring about the most clear or accurate result. --G2bambino (talk) 23:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

OK , thanks G2 , personaly I think the ' others' are wrong but it would take an extremely long and tedious debate to show why . Lejon (talk)25 May 08 —Preceding comment was added at 01:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No worries. If you're interested, the "long and turbulent" debate is now at Talk:Monarchy of the United Kingdom/Archive 2, starting here. --G2bambino (talk) 03:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link G2 - strewth - I'm not getting involved in something like that . Please disregard my original query . I note that in the Wiki article on the Statute of Westminster there are references to a unitary Crown and a common allegiance to the Crown . I guess the confusion starts because the word 'Crown' can have different meanings . Lejon (talk) 01:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Last Sentence

The last sentence in the History section:

The republic was floated again, and widely supported. Rudd has come out in support and intimated that the republic may become a reality before the end of the reign of Elizabeth II

The reference provided makes no mention of a Republic before the end of Elizabeth II's reign nor does it mention a republic being widely supported. If anyone can provide a better source, please add one. -MichiganCharms (talk) 00:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the text that isn't supported by the citation. Rudd said in the transcript I think what the summit was saying loud and clear is that there is a big groundswell of support for a republic in Australia. In order to bring a republic about and I'm a longstanding republican, and we're committed as a party to bring about a republic, you do need widespread community support. We lost the last referendum nearly 10 years ago, we don't want to lose the next one. So we'll be building this one up very carefully. - as per MichiganCharms that does not equal the summit widely supporting a republic - rather Rudd spinning what he thought he heard. Nothing about timing in relation to reign of QE2 rather he says he is building up to a referendum but slowly. --Matilda 01:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Head of State / Personal Union

This article states the Queen must be the Head of State in Australia. After all she is in "personal union" with other countries!!! --Lawe (talk) 13:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't get it. --Gazzster (talk) 00:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The situation is described as a personal union... "personal union" is defined (in the Misplaced Pages article) as referring to sharing a Head of State. The minutiae of terminlogy at work - it would make just as much sense to define "personal union" slightly differently. JPD (talk) 03:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

OK. I see what you and Lawe are saying. The whole 'who is Australia's head of state thing, and the application of the term 'personal union' to the constitutional monarchies sharing E2.

Lawe's just using the vague definition of "head of state" as reason to doubt the personal union issue; god only knows why. Most personal unions throughout history have been focused on one sovereign anyway. There can be no doubt that Australia has a shared sovereign. --G2bambino (talk) 15:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be using a vague definition of sovereign, because in this case it would be a Head of State. --Lawe (talk) 19:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily, as you already know well enough. --G2bambino (talk) 23:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Simple question: Is Australia sharing its Head of State or not? --Lawe (talk) 11:21, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

That's not a simple question, it's a purposely skewed question. The better question is: Is Australia sharing its monarch or not? --G2bambino (talk) 14:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

To share or not to share. That is the question. I think we ought to be having this discussion somewhere central. It seems spred over many pages at the moment. Might I suggest WP:CWR? ;) --Cameron * 14:04, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually that is not the question --Lawe (talk) 14:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

"Royal Coat of Arms of Australia"

The infobox at the top right of the article presently shows the coat of arms of Australia with the caption "Royal Coat of Arms of Australia". As I understand it this coat is the coat of arms of Australia, not of the Queen of Australia. The article Australian Royal Symbols says that the Queen of Australia's personal arms (as displayed in state courtrooms) are indentical to the royal coat of arms of the United Kingdom. The caption needs to be changed, or the arms possibly removed from the infobox altogether as being of doubtful relevance. Opera hat (talk) 14:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I've now realised that a lot of the other "Monarchy in " articles may have a similar problem, depending on whether the arms really are the arms of the Queen of that country or whether they are the arms of the country itself. Maybe this needs to be raised at Template talk:Infobox Monarchy instead. Opera hat (talk) 14:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Speaking for the UK:Ultimately they are the arms of the monarch of the country although they are nowadays inextricably linked with the state. I can't speak for the other realms but I believe the same applies there too. --Cameron * 16:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I know this is the case in the United Kingdom, and in Canada too. As I've said above it seems not to be the case in Australia. This issue began at Talk:Flags and coats of arms of Elizabeth II, where I pointed out that the distinct coat of arms of the Vatican City and coat of arms of Pope Benedict XVI demonstrate that a monarch does not always bear the same arms as his country. Opera hat (talk) 17:09, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Right you are. I think each state's arms ought to be reviewed individually to see whether action need be taken. --Cameron * 17:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The present Coat of Arms was granted by George V in 1912. It is a symbol of the Federation and are owned by the Commonwealth . It is 'Royal' in the sense that it was granted by Royal Warrant. It is not a symbol of the monarch of Australia per se.I don't see a problem with keeping the Arms in the infobox: let's just remove the prefix 'Royal' to avoid identifying it with the Monarch personally.--Gazzster (talk) 22:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The "Royal" prefix is embedded in Template:Infobox Monarchy which is used in lots of articles, so that really should be discussed at Template talk:Infobox Monarchy. Opera hat (talk) 12:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

This comes down to a matter of terminology; the link Gazzter points to doesn't say the arms belong to the Commonwealth (whatever defines that), it says they're used by "the government." As the government in Australia is the Queen's government, and the authority the government wields is the Queen's authority, it's not so cut-and-dry as to say "the arms that represent the Queen's government are not the Queen's arms, and thus not royal." I'm not saying the template shouldn't be altered to accomodate variations across different countries, but I don't think we should so easily dismiss what might actually be true. --G2bambino (talk) 14:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I should also add to this discussion that the Queen's Royal Standard for her realms in which she has one (including Australia) is a banner of that realm's coat of arms; another point that somewhat muddies the distinction between whether the arms are royal or not. --G2bambino (talk) 15:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly. For the United Kingdom the Royal Standard is just a banner of the royal arms, but for the other Commonwealth realms for which the Queen has a designated Personal Flag that flag is a banner of the national arms defaced by the Royal cypher. That would seem to imply that the national arms are not the same as the royal arms. Opera hat (talk) 18:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

'The Australian Coat of Arms is the property of the Commonwealth Government'.Apologies-that particular statement was not from the site I referenced before.Again, I've no objection to the Arms in the infobox.It isan article about Australia, after all. I'm only wary of the implication that they are the Monarch's arms. The Queen's Australian Standard is pictured in the article and does not feature the Commonwealth Arms.--Gazzster (talk) 07:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

And, the Commonwealth government is the Queen-in-Council. Her standard features the shield of the "Commonwealth Arms." I'm not sure how relevant the cypher is to the matter. The banners were just another thing to consider in this matter. --G2bambino (talk) 23:46, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

As I say, I don't have a problem with the arms being in the infobox. It's the 'it's the Queen's Nation, so it's the Queen's Arms' thing that I object to. The Commonwealth is not the Government. The Arms of the Commonwealth represent the Federation. The State is a wider concept than merely the Government.The Queen has her own personal standard, and, if you look, it features symbols of the six states. The kangaroo and emu crest is not featured.--Gazzster (talk) 09:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Your source said the arms are property of the "Commonwealth government," that would be Her Majesty's government in Canberra, would it not? Regardless, this is a debate for vexologists; I just don't think any of us here have enough knowledge of the matter to say anything for sure, one way or the other. --G2bambino (talk) 15:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it's not so much a vexillogical issue as a constitutional one. Here in the UK the Sovereign constitutionally is the government (legislation is passed by the Crown-in-Parliament, for example) so it would make sense for them to have the same arms. I don't know how far that is the case in Australia or the other Commonwealth realms. Opera hat (talk) 17:09, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure the Queen's Personal ian Flags are relevant to the discussion at all. As they are not heraldic banners of any known coat-of-arms (though this is an incorporated element) then they are useless for establishing what arms their user bears. You might as well try to argue that the arms of the Governor-General of Australia are Azure a representation of St Edward's Crown proper thereon a lion statant guardant or imperially crowned proper and in base a scroll or bearing the words "Commonwealth of Australia" based on the fact that s/he uses that flag. Opera hat (talk) 17:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the questions hinges on what we mean by the 'Royal Coat of Arms'. If by that term we mean a device that represents the Royal Person, the Commonwealth Arms are very definitely not the Royal Coat of Arms. For they do not represent the Person of the Sovereign, but the State of which she is Queen. She already has a personal standard for use in Australia. If by 'Royal Coat of Arms' we mean the Arms constituted by Royal Warrant, sure- why not? But G2bambino seems to be understanding it in the first sense,on the grounds that the Federation is the Sovereign, and so is her personal standard. This smacks of the identification of the person of the Monarch with the State in a manner that is unjustified by reason, law and tradition, as discussed above ('Parliamentary Sovereignty', etc).--Gazzster (talk) 21:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

But G2bambino seems to be understanding it in the first sense, on the grounds that the Federation is the Sovereign, and so is her personal standard. This smacks of the identification of the person of the Monarch with the State in a manner that is unjustified by reason, law and tradition, as discussed above. Is there some different coat of arms for the UK apart from those of EIIR in right of that country? Ditto for Canada? Or, is Australia, again, somehow different? --G2bambino (talk) 22:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

For the UK, no; I don't know about Canada. But the article on Australian Royal Symbols which I cited in my first post in this section does refer to the Queen's personal arms, which are not the same as the arms of the Commonwealth of Australia. I don't know how far that makes Australia different, though - other countries where the monarch and the government use separate coats of arms include the Vatican City (also mentioned above), Denmark and Sweden. Opera hat (talk) 13:03, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

To clarify: I would understand the term "Royal Coat of Arms of Australia" to mean "the coat of arms of the Queen of Australia". Opera hat (talk) 13:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Twenty-seven minor edits

G2bambino made about twenty-seven minor changes to the article, including reverts. All the paragraphs were altered for no reason, other than to make things confusing. The whole article was a complete mess. There was no agreement on any points. This is the sort of poor example that generates conflict with other editors. Please learn to use the sandbox. 2 or 3 edits we understand, but twenty-seven !!!! --Lawe (talk) 11:26, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if you can't keep up. Each edit is clearly documented, though; most are simple movements of text from one location to another, merging similar topics and eliminating repetition. I'm not done yet, either. If you have any issue, feel free to raise it here, instead or blindly reverting again, that is. Cheers. --G2bambino (talk) 14:00, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

If you want to make changes to this article G2bambino, please mention them here first so we can get a consensus. I suggest you stop making irregular changes. --Lawe (talk) 14:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Irregular by whose definition, Dlatimer? I really need not present every edit here for approval; do I need your permission to move a comma or reword a sentence? If you have a specific issue, bring it forward and I will do my best to address it. I'm not going to have you vet every change I want to make before-hand. --G2bambino (talk) 21:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry! When you revert other contributions, the comment is invariably that the editor needs to discuss first, so I thought you were serious. But we see that your own instruction does not extend to your good self. This explains why the article is full of nonsense, such as explained below. So from this point, all editors are invited to get the article correct and not obtain permission. Glad to see this cleared up. --Lawe (talk) 12:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Please familiarise yourself with WP:EP. Only contentious edits need discussed. You, however, seem to have an issue with me making edits, period. That again reminds me to remind you to also read WP:OWN. --G2bambino (talk) 14:59, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Permission

Please note that editors DO NOT need to discuss with G2bambino before they make edits. If G2bambino wants to revert, an actual relevant reason should be provided. The reason for writing this is explained in the section above. --Lawe (talk) 12:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Errr, is this a gag? Recommend this section be deleted (as it doesn't help matters). GoodDay (talk) 14:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

No, please let it stand. It provides good insight. --G2bambino (talk) 15:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Point of View

This article is written from a Canadian point of view. There are things which do not even register as remotely Australian. Much of the material is written ignoring federal state issue. The material cites heavily from the UK government, not the Australian govt. --Lawe (talk) 11:33, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Examples, please? --G2bambino (talk) 14:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I've always assumed, that the Australian monarchy was the same as the Canadian, Jamaican, British etc monarchies. GoodDay (talk) 19:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Similar, but not 100% the same. --G2bambino (talk) 20:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

It reads fine to me, Mr Latimer. ;) --Cameron * 20:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The article is getting better in this respect. There were a number of comparisons to Canada, quotations by Toporoski, which didn't seem to make much sense, and a number of assumptions, based on the way things are done in the UK or Canada (eg, 'Australian' Royal Family, Australian viceroys are regularly members of the Royal Family, overemphasis on the royal prerogative which makes no sense in an Australian context, etc). These have, for the most part, been edited out. Many probably remain and I believe the article needs to be finely combed and better referenced. Part of the problem seems to be the general assumption that the monarchies are carbon copies of each other. It is supposed, then, that references for the one can be indiscriminately used to reference the other. In reality each monarchy is contextualised by the constitutions of the country. This produces some important differences. For example, the Queen in the UK can personally appoint, or dismiss, if she is required to, a prime minister.In Australia she cannot.In Papua New Guinea, the viceroy must by law consult both the Government and the Leader of the Opposition before using the emergency powers.--Gazzster (talk) 22:39, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, and I've done my best to note the unique aspects of the Crown in Australia. I may not have got them all, however. As I said above, though, this remains a work in progress. --G2bambino (talk) 22:42, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Very interesting stuff. If you're gonna have a monarchy? ya won't a benign one (i.e constitutional). GoodDay (talk) 22:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The Canadian influence is pervasive. There are too many mistakes to mention, and yet its pointless changing them because G2bambino reverts back immediately. --Lawe (talk) 13:49, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The section on the court is completely incorrect. There is nothing about it which is true in the Australian context. --Lawe (talk) 14:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Examples, please? (That's the second time.) --G2bambino (talk) 17:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, seeing as you (Lawe) & Gazz are Australians? it's only natural that you'd both would have better knowledge of the situation (I suppose). Whatever ya'll decide, of course. GoodDay (talk) 14:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I've only once set foot in a court so I don't really know. Perhaps Lawe could give us some examples, or even be bold and edit out the wrog stuff. I must admit to frowning slightly at the reference to the 'Arms of Her Majesty in Right of Australia'. That doesn't sound right but I don't know. The Commonwealth Arms would be in federal courts if that's what it means. I always thought the Queen's Arms were the 'Dieu et mon droit' thing with the lion and unicorn.--Gazzster (talk) 21:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I thought that might irk you, Gazz. ;) Really, though, I was hoping to find some proper information about that, or an Aussie could correct it for me; if it's wrong. --G2bambino (talk) 21:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The official guidelines for the use of the Commonwealth C of A is to be found here (beginning). They are used in federal courts. Since they are not referred to as the 'Coat of Arms of Her Majesty in Right of Australia', it is reasonable to suppose that they aren't.--Gazzster (talk) 21:48, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

If that's the case, then there seems to be little reason to mention the arms here. --G2bambino (talk) 22:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

...and they shouldn't be referred to as the "Royal Coat of Arms of Australia" in the infobox, either. Opera hat (talk) 02:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

It would seem so.--Gazzster (talk) 10:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

The whole section on courts is incorrect. So start with the first sentence and go to the second ect... Australian courts are independent of the monarchy (as per High Court decision). No appeals to the Queen, no prerogative of mercy, no legitimacy, no Queen-on-the-bench, no lawsuits against the Queen or foreign court issues, no 'God Save the Queen' ect... The WHOLE SECTION is written by someone with a vivid imagination. The sources are misunderstood e.g. Harry Gibbs was talking about "400 years ago". He actually says "Indeed, the framers of our Constitution accepted the view of the separation of the judicial power from the legislative and executive powers." This is basic stuff. --Lawe (talk) 12:19, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

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