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Neutrality tag

The article is currently tagged, saying that its neutrality is disputed. Could anyone who agrees with this, please list specific points of dispute, so that they can be addressed? Or if you disagree that the tag is appropriate, please state that too, so we can determine the consensus on how to handle it. Thanks, Elonka 15:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

And then can we make it into a list of things to do? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. That's how these "dispute" tags are supposed to work, is that the template is supposed to be a flag that there's a discussion going on at the talkpage about the specific points of dispute. The specific section can even be included in the template. If specific points of dispute cannot be defined though, then the template should be removed. For more information, see the docs at Template:POV. --Elonka 16:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The sentence: The site "also provides links to hundreds of trusted health sites," is non-neutral. Trusted should be balanced with a qualifier, if it is to remain.

The description of Quackwatch reviewer David Hufford, Ph.D. as, "a writer who generally supports viewing alternative medicine as just a different culture," is vague and weak; it is unsourced, and is transparently POV. Some editors have repeatedly removed the Ph.D. from his name. Petergkeyes (talk) 00:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

It might be your opinion or my opinion that the statement The site "also provides links to hundreds of trusted health sites," is non-neutral. However, it is not Misplaced Pages making this statement, but a direct quote (referenced) from a source. If the word trusted is not "balanced with a qualifier" in the source, then it would be POV for you or I, (Misplaced Pages in other words), to insert our opinions. I see too that someone has placed a opinion needs balancing tag after the entry about Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa's review of Quackwatch. Better still, make the entry accurate for a start. It says Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa "... felt the site might lack fair balance....". He said no such thing. He said Barrett "leaves one sensing a lack of fair balance". He specified Barrett, not Quackwatch. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 02:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

K. you make an insightful and important point. The statement says absolutely nothing about Quackwatch, hardly anything about Barrett, but everything about the personal perceptions of the reader of Barrett's writings. It is a self-revealing statement about the feelings of Bao-Anh Nguyen-Khoa, which are no doubt replicated in thousands of altmed proponents who also read Barrett's and any other skeptic's writings. That's the nature of the beast and it really can't be any other way. As such it's just a rather "duh" and empty statement from a non-notable writer. It has no substance. Barrett has replied to such charges and openly admits that he is not trying to give equal time to all ideas. IOW he's not about to write as if he believes that undocumented fringe ideas he considers deceptive are equally valid as ideas from scientifically validated mainstream sources, and then just leave it up to often uninformed readers to make up their minds. That would be irresponsible, and it would be foolish to give promoters of quackery a soapbox. In some cases we don't even allow that here! He has a right to an opinion, and he expresses it. One can hardly blame him for that, and it's a perfectly legitimate way of writing. Those who "charge" him for doing so should look in their own mirror, since they are expressing their own undocumented opinions as if they were true, and they don't even have the evidence to back their quack claims, unlike Barrett who provides documentation for why the mainstream position is a better choice. -- Fyslee / talk 05:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt this article will ever achieve a stable, neutral perspective. in just the short time I've been here, I've seen it get reasonably neutral two or three times, and then each time someone comes by and removes all of the critical perspectives so it's just a spank-the-monkey piece. at this point, I suggest we leave the template on there until the article has gone 9 months without a major edit; that will give some incentive towards creating a stable page. --Ludwigs2 01:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, re-visiting this: What needs to change, for the "neutrality" tag to come off this article? I recommend that we drill down and identify exactly which sections of the article need help. Could anyone who has concerns, please tag sections or sentences appropriately? These tags may be helpful:

• {{POV-section}} - adds banner with "The neutrality of this section is disputed"
• {{disputed-inline}} - Adds
• {{POV-statement}} - Adds [neutrality disputed}
• {{POV-assertion}} - Adds
• {{lopsided}} - Adds
• {{vc}} - Adds
• {{vs}} - Adds

Note that you don't have to tag something, if it's easier to just fix it. But I'd like to try and narrow down where the specific problems are, rather than just having a generic "Neutrality" tag at the top of the entire article.

Thanks, --Elonka 19:31, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this approach, Elonka, is that this is an attitude problem, not a facticity problem. and I'm not talking about the attitudes of editors... The major criticisms offered against Barrett and Quackwatch are that they are over-zealous in their work (i.e., that Barrett's clear and unambiguous opposition to alternative medicine leads him to overstate, overreact and overgeneralize, rather than follow normal and conservative scientific procedures). of course, those criticisms often come from people who it is easy to imagine have an axe to grind, so that's a different attitude problem. now this has been the general problem faced on this article - when editor A tries to add a sourced critical perspectives on QW, editor B asserts that the criticism comes from some AltMed supporter with an axe to grind, and tries to remove it or denigrate it as an unreliable opinion. this whole squabble is bound up in assessments of the characters of reviewers critical to QW, and until the question of the character of reviewers is removed from consideration the problem won't go away. the fact that Barrett is overtly snarky about altmed actually fuels the issue: because Barrett insults AM, it's easy to claim that people who criticize him are responding to his insults rather than the errors in his procedures.

so how do we negate these attitude issues? --Ludwigs2 23:30, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

So which bits are POV? Shot info (talk) 22:51, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

that's the problem - both Barrett and the majority of his detractors are POV positions. the few people I can see who aren't presenting POV positions (the academics, mostly) are being accused of presenting POV positions. The whole editorial process here has become a protracted effort at spin doctoring, and I don't know how to get editors to cease and start editing from wikipedia-style neutrality. you can tag this article until doomsday, and it won't make a darned bit of difference so long as editors keep trying to make judgements about sources rather than simply reporting them. --Ludwigs2 23:12, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I seemed to have missed it, so exactly which bits in the article are POV in your opinion. If you cannot point to them to help editors edit them, then there is no reason for the tag. Articulated previously mind you but thanks to Elonka, here we are writting essays in talk space instead of editing articles... Shot info (talk) 23:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

ah sorry, my mistake. keep in mind that I didn't place the neutrality tag myself this time (I think it might have been placed there by QuackGuru, on the concern that there was too much criticism in the article, though I myself placed it on an earlier incarnation because there was too little criticism in the article...). to my mind, the current bias arises arises in two major places, with the same functional root. the split between the 'Public Comments' and 'Reviews' section creates a bias - there's really no need for the division at all, but the 'Public Comments' section is defended as a 'QW back-patting' section. this was much worse in the past: originally the division was called something like 'Awards' and 'criticisms', except that the criticisms section kept getting deleted. now what's happened is that the 'Public Comments' section is used to give a nice, glowing review of QW, while the review section is edited heavily to minimize critical perspectives. that's the second major (if related) bias; this tendency to minimize critical viewpoints as mere advocacy. there are several academic opinions that have been entered into the reviews section, yet editors keep trying to refocus them a the opinions of altmed supporters, rather than as credible academic opinions. I mean, hello - a month or two ago I had to argue with quackguru because he was dismissing a Rutledge press book (one of the better academic presses in the nation) as a self-published source, and the author of that same book is currently currently being referred to 'a medical historian interested in how Oriental medicine can complement modern medicine' rather than as an academic who studies these issues professionally. (I just got a copy of that book, so I'll be revising that passage as soon as I get a chance, but you see what I mean...) --Ludwigs2 00:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually it was put in by Peter (for UNDUE reasons see above) then removed by me, and reinserted by me due to an example of Elonka's poor admining, then here we are. QG had nothing to do with it. FWIW, what you dismiss as "back patting" is from notable organisations, yet the criticism is often from non-notable individuals. There is a reason that we don't "balance" viewpoints - it's called WP:NPOV. Shot info (talk) 00:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Is this entirely "uncited, unsourced original research"?

Re: , I think we can easily verify:

• "was asked by editors of the Journal of Law, Medicine and Ethics"
• "to give a presentation as the counterpoint for Dr. Lawrence J. Schneidermanthe s presentation"
• "which argued that "alternative medicine" is not medicine at all"

I'm not so sure about:

• "since he is known for advocating for tolerance of alternative medicine as a culture"

--Ronz (talk) 17:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I've restored the info above that I think is easily verifiable and not in contention. I also moved his title to the footnote as it is in the other as a compromise to the previous discussions on this issue. Note that the footnote actually contains a reference for the information about the symposium. --Ronz (talk) 15:55, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

The information above is in contention. It is not easily verifiable, and it is not relevant to Quackwatch. The professor's credentials should be restored. Petergkeyes (talk) 10:08, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

If it's not relevant, then I guess the source and all relevant information should be removed as well. Otherwise, we need to be sure we present it per NPOV, which is what we've been doing. Have you read the previous discussions on this? Seems like you're asking us to ignore NPOV. --Ronz (talk) 02:59, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

What is Hufford?

I've heard the guy speak. He is a humanities professor who thinks that healthcare is part science/part art/part culture. If you read any of his papers, he evinces this ethos and it's a legitimate ethos to boot. He believes that alternative medicine is good for the same reasons that Patch Adams does: namely it is a cultural form that people engage with and it allows them to feel comfortable. To this end, he criticizes those who criticize alt. medicine for being narrow-minded in their approach to medicine-as-Western-evidence-based-science. In fact, he argues, since we don't have a scientific model for humanity, there are more things that need to be taken into account than simply whether health is evidence-based or not. Etc. etc. etc. Comes to be that this particular academic is sought out for his "alternative opinions" about "alternative medicine" quite frequently because he doesn't like the fact that alternative medicine is maligned simply for its lack of evidence. That's his take, and inasmuch as it is his take, he is a sympathizer with alternative medicine. I'll grant you that he has a nuanced perspective; he's not saying that alternative medicine is "effective" in the way that one would describe antibiotics as "effective". He's merely saying that it deserves a consideration that hasn't been afforded it, and indeed, he claims, has been denied it by a healthcare establishment too focused on models of medicine that treat human malady as isolated causal systems rather than as complex systems that belie simple analysis.

I'm not sure how the hell to get this across to the reader. He is an "apologist" for alternative medicine. I put that in there and less-than-kind people who I doubt did much reading, listening, or consideration of this professor balked. However, there needs to be some acknowledgment that Hufford is coming at this subject with a lens of accommodation if not acceptance of alternative medicine as a cultural form worthy of respectful treatment.

ScienceApologist (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

sorry, been taking a break from this page, so that I don't need to deal with certain less-than-kind individuals.

apologist is a judgement term, not a statement of fact. I have no problem contextualizing Hufford's perspective, as long as it's presented as a credible academic opinion, not as the opinion of a 'sympathizer', 'apologist', 'advocate', 'proponent' or any other term that is there to evaluate Hufford as a person. rather than to represent Hufford's opinions. this incessant effort to break things down into opposing camps is pointless, and only serves to confound and corrupt the information that the article is supposed to be presenting. --Ludwigs2 22:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Um, your removal of content in the article is a violation of the editing restrictions in this article. Rephrase, don't remove is the name of the game. If you have no problem with contextualizing Hufford's perspective then you should have tried to contextualize Hufford's perspective rather than removing the content. The fact is that Hufford was acting as an "opposing camp" to people who were critical of alternative medicine when he made the statement and since it is an important fact that only people who are supportive of alternative medicine are critical of Quackwatch, your removal of the characterization of Hufford's stated opinions on alternative medicine as well as your removal of the context in which he offered his opinions on Quackwatch removes information that provides valuable context for the reader. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:00, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually the edit in question left Hufford's view and the source in place, but it did shorten the statement considerably. If you think too much was taken out, perhaps there's another wording that both of you could agree to? Shell 19:53, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

We simply need to characterize the fact that Hufford is an alternative medicine supporter. That's important, perhaps more important than his status as a retired humanities professor. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

ok, SA - I actually understand your concern. how about if we say this? "David Hufford, a professor of humanities who studies the cultural aspects of alternative medicine"? that clarifies what he does, and puts his viewpoint in proper perspective, without using any loaded terms that might cast him as an advocate rather than an academic. it also leaves out the 'in response to' tangent, which isn't necessary to the article, but was only used to place Hufford in a 'camp'. would that work for you? --Ludwigs2 23:05, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

But that doesn't include the context required for NPOV. --Ronz (talk) 00:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Right. There are people who study alternative medicine who do not view it as sympathetically as Hufford. This is an important point to get across to the reader. ScienceApologist (talk) 14:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

first, ronz - I'm not sure what context you're talking about. it clearly identifies the author and his relationship to the topic, doesn't it? --Ludwigs2 01:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I would say that it misses the key point that Hufford generally advocates the thesis that alternative medicine should be looked at through a sympathetic cultural lens. By saying he "studies the cultural aspects of alternative medicine" we miss his unique perspective which isn't someone who asks the question: "why do people delude themselves?" but rather "how is alternative medicine beneficial to people involved in its culture?" ScienceApologist (talk) 14:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

except that I don't necessarily see Hufford as asking either question. Academics as a rule strive for objectivity, because if they have axes to grind they don't do well as academics (academia is allergic to politics, believe it or not - funding worries...). you keep wanting to place him in the category of a sympathizer or advocate, when most likely he just wants to explore the psycho-social aspects of AltMed without really taking a stand either way. I mean really, what is his criticism here? he says that QW is not fully committed to objective scientific practice (something that Barrett himself has admitted to, on the grounds that pseudoscience doesn't need objective treatment) - that seems like a perfectly valid scientific critique, one that any scientist might make without a prejudice for or against QW. --Ludwigs2 21:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's get down to business: Hufford is a bit of an odd-ball. He's a humanist amidst a group of scientists. He tends to think holistically while everyone else is a reductionist. He's an odd-man-out and he definitely is more sympathetic to alternative medicine than the vast majority of professors in schools of medicine. So that information should be available to the reader. It's not like this is not an obvious bit of information. A simple read-through of his last five published works is enough to show that this is his particular perspective. His perspective here is relevant because his critique was solicited due to his peculiar position being more sympathetic to alternative medicine than the opposing party. He was selected intentionally for a debate. What we're doing here is akin to citing Michael Behe in an article about the NCSE without coming clean about his affiliation with intelligent design. ScienceApologist (talk) 23:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

most of this seems like criticism of Hufford as a person, and that's not really relevant to anything (I mean, did you know that Einstein once had to be rescued by the coast guard because he cut the keel off his sailboat? - kinda dumb for a physicist, yah, but doesn't really detract from the theory of relativity). Hufford's last five published works show that he studies alternative medicine and culture; anything more than that is a matter of opinon. these works don't show that he is sympathetic to AM, an advocate for it, or anything like that. this is what academics do SA; they look at things and they write scholarly books about them, with (by expectation) a level of analytic detachment. again, I have no problem with noting that Hufford studies AltMed (which should be obvious by inspection anyway), but I do have a problem with him being cast as anything other than an academic who studies AltMed. --Ludwigs2 07:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Does Hufford belong here at all?

Actually, more importantly, exactly why is Hufford's opinion on anything (forgetting QW for the moment) valid and needed to be reported. Is he a relevant expert in the field? Regardless of his actual opinion(s) on various subjects, is is opinion actually notable. Is he quoted in his field(s) of strength? If not, why is his opinion then notable here. Sure his opinion is verifiable, and sourced (from a reliable source even) but why is his opinion notable in this article when his opinion is not notable in what he is employed as and actually writes in? Feel free to move this to a new section if required. Shot info (talk) 01:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

second, Shot info - allow me to point out that 'notable' re: wp:notability only applies to whether or not a topic should be entered into wikipedia as an article. this use of the word notable is senseless in this context; the proper guideline is wp:undue weight. with that in mind, your question becomes easy to answer: Hufford is an establish academic offering an opinion specifically about quackwatch in an academic journal. he is well within his field for what he is talking about (which is more than I can say for Martin Gardner, just to throw in a zinger). he meets the weight requirement easily. --Ludwigs2 01:16, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, now you have added to the problems of the article that you have articulated above. Firstly, if I meant WP:NOTE, I would have typed WP:NOTE, I mean notable in the context of the word - notable. Who is Hufford? You have complained that this article is suffering, yet one of the reasons it is suffering is that QW is a organisation that has be lauded in the media and within academic circles - and to seemingly counter balance that, all and any commentry is dragged up - no matter how obscure or obtuse. So how to fix this? Well, lets write an article for an encyclopedia with WP:NPOV in mind. Every ... single ... reference ... no matter how vague, remote, uncontexual, or just plain pointless - made about the subject of the article does not need to be included. This is editing 101. That fact is, this article suffers because there is a desparate attempt by editors to include every "negative" reference, which then violates weight, so more "positive" guff is added - which leads to unreadibility and the current "poor" state of the article. This can be fixed of course, but it requires editors to admit that not every single reference needs inclusion. But alas, it seems that some editors cannot do this - and so the article probably won't ever change (mind you Elonka's EP policy certainly ensures that ferked up articles stay ferked up). WRT: Gardner - You are more than welcome discuss matters about other articles on those articles talkpages. Shot info (talk) 01:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

(undent) sorry, I didn't mean to be confusing. but I'm failing to understand your issue here, even with the word clarification. there are certain people who laud quackwatch, and there are certain people who criticize quackwatch, and I don't see the problem with including both. I'm not asking to use every single reference under the sun, but I'm not at all clear what grounds you are using to ask to have this reference removed. is Hufford (a professor with academic publications under his belt that show he is a credible professional in his field) somehow a less reliable source that Nguyen-Khoa (a pharmacist, whose only professional publication that I can find is an eight paragraph review in a minor pharmaceutical journal). if you want to remove Hufford on those grounds, let me know, because I will use that decision as an axe, here and in other articles, to trim out a whole lot of scientistic deadwood (and no, I don't mind talking about gardner and other pages here - wikipedia should be consistent, after all, and what goes here ought to go everywhere).

and just so you know, I don't have a problem with quackwatch per se - to the extent that Barrett actually debunks scams, I'm completely in his corner. but he and QW have been criticized for being biased, unselective, and unscientific in some of their efforts, and those criticisms belong in this article just as does the praise for the good work that they do. believe me, I'm no radical: the only reason I push so hard for the criticism in this this article is that if I don't, the article will rapidly get reverted to the white-washed drivel that was here when I first saw the page.

Just think of me as the equal but opposite reaction in Newton's Theory of Misplaced Pages.  :-) --Ludwigs2 02:35, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Ludwigs, please don't try to characterise my suggestions as including in all "positive" non-notable information. Curiously I haven't argued for that. The problem with this article is, it starts out being (say) 90% information on QW (ie/ neutral and position), 10% "negative". Now before you try to pull the numbers apart, they are illustrative only. Then (say) somebody comes along and says "but what about X, Y, Z from obscure journal A, location B etc. " which starts to push the weight from 90/10 to say 80/20, or 70/30. So other editors cry "Weight" but the Elonka's of the world say "Na-huh has to stay in because I don't know about WP:UNDUE and it's sourced" so then to push it back to 90/10, in goes more "guff".

Let's face it. QW is a relatively small organisation that has attracted support and opposition. The article should read about what the organisation is, who it's key members are, what it's purpose(s) are and how it attempts to achieve it. Saying that is NPOV. Then the notable support should be included (as there is some key support quotes) and criticism from notable critics. ie/ notable people, people who actually mean something when they critise. So Hufford....no. Chopra....yes. And on the so-called "positive" side, Nguyen-Khoa ... no. Time ... yes. On the whole, the article should reflect the fact that more significant and notable organisations and people regard QW with some measure of worthiness, while most of it critics are largely nobodies (yes, even Hufford is a nobody...especially given his critism isn't really about QW but largely an out of context mined quote).

The article on QW should be shortened and made more succint. What I see your problem being is that you don't seem to be pushing the article towards being an better article, but just stopping it from being white-washed. So cease stopping the whitewashing and fix the article. How about you present a new section skeleton which we can discuss and rewrite the info into? Shot info (talk) 03:53, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. We've discussed this many times, and it just came up at ANI: . We need to follow NPOV. If that means ignoring the advise and opinions of editors that don't understand NPOV, then so be it. --Ronz (talk) 18:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Charlotte is actually not backing up your point at all. JzG seems not even aware of what exactly the dispute involves. Hufford is representing a common position, and it is certainly not undue weight to include his comments. The reason that we guide the content in an article with undue weight rather than notability is because people will get confused and think that whether something should be added is dependent upon the notability of the source, like Shot info with his statement that Deepak Chopra belongs, and Hufford does not. II | (t - c) 19:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I suggest you reread the comments here and by JzG. Then, please provide an independent, reliable source that demonstrates we should give Hufford and his opinions any mention at all. --Ronz (talk) 19:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Hi II. My concern is that Hufford is representative of a type of information that clutters up articles. Sure he said it and nominally I have no problems with it being included. The reason why I am suggesting that it and pretty much all the section(s) we have problems with should be rewritten. The problem is, that most edits want to turn this article into Criticisms of Quackwatch and accuse other editors of whitewashing (or the like) when undone. So rather than editing the article into something more like what you would see in say a real encyclopaedia we have this miss-mash article of poorly written material. So why not completely rewrite it and remove all the guff? This is what I'm proposing below (that seems to be ignored with an atypical WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT tactic) and what we then have the ability to do is tighten up the article to make it more readable and keep in the relevant info.

2nd point (on Hufford) - lets not focus just on Hufford, while I'm using him as an example (and others are trying to mischaracterise me). Yes, he said X. But he himself, who cares that he said it? Really. Who is he? In order to make the bits fit, we must engage in suitable synthesis ... adding bits in about the quoter to make his/her words better fit the argument. This is a rather common problem in Misplaced Pages though, and it's rife throughout political BLPs particularly of modern leaders (where every commentator and his dog have comments/quotes with no context). But those editors in those articles recognise (true, some dont' but on the whole they seem to have got it right) that not every quote ("positive" or "negative") are valid in an encyclopaedia.

3rd point - FWIW, we should use Hufford's info not in it's current article context (ie/ as a review), but rewritten like "Quackwatch has been both praised and criticised in academia <pos ref><neg ref>" (or words to that effect) as part of a paragraph in english - rather than the quotefest. Shot info (talk) 23:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't seem to fit well in the review section, I suppose. That's why it was better to put these things in a reception section. It would fit better in the "Public comment" section. Your argument for just referencing these guys vaguely doesn't seem that great. It is better for your position to note them in-text, because that way their profession are noted. Hufford is not just any academic; he is a humanities, same with Ernst. Readers will weight his opinion differently based on that (read: lower). Similarly, the pharmacist has one of the more objective and constructive criticisms of the site. Also, I think The Good Web Guide is a terrible source. I don't think it's non-encyclopedic to note what reliable sources have said about the site explicitly. I guess we're just going to have to disagree on that. I will grant you that most of the comments are fairly shallow, but that doesn't invalidate them. II | (t - c) 05:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

well, Ronz, I'll tell you... I and other editors have fixed this article two or three times already, and each time ScienceApologist and/or QuackGuru undid the revsions made, with a lot of energy but without a lot of discussion. how do you think this article came under editing restrictions in the first place? when consensus editing becomes possible here, I'm all for it; since it's not, damage control is the only meaningful option I have.

with respect to your other statements... I don't see any grounds in policy or guideline for what you are saying. in particular, this phrase - "ie/ notable people, people who actually mean something when they criticize" - seems to be central to your argument (in that it defines what you mean by 'notable' in the off-beat way you're using it), but it is such a vague, subjective statement that it couldn't possibly be founded in meaningful policy. and you seem to have a preference for popular-press sources over academic sources (Time & Chopra over the academic pair) that is a bit anti-encyclopedic. the fact of the matter is, Hufford is a reliable and verifiable source; the only grounds for excluding him might be that his opinion represents a tiny minority opinion, and fails undue weight. is that what you're arguing?

And shot info... be glad we don't make a policy of "ignoring the advise and opinions of editors that don't understand NPOV", because if we did no one would listen to a word you said.  :-P --Ludwigs2 21:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

In reply to your last paragraph: Expelliarmus. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 22:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Heh, I'm glad that Coppertwig, an admin, enjoys the personal attack with the emoticon on the end. Nice.Shot info (talk) 22:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Coppertwig is not an admin. OrangeMarlin 23:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Just a defender of personal attacks then. Will need to keep an eye on his future RfA then. Shot info (talk) 23:22, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Shot - I appreciate the irony of you complaining about personal attacks in the same electronic breath you accuse me - and at least one administrator - of unspecified crimes against wikipedia (not to mention your assertions that I'm ignorant and whiney). Things like that just tickle me; I can't help it. However, I think it's high time you learned that consensus is reached by discussing things with other editors, not by subjecting them to a string of unfounded insults until they get pissed off at you. while you're learning that, you might also take the time to realize that NPOV needs consensus - read the policy page, for heaven's sake.

Now, I've already told you what I find problematic about the page, above. if you'd like me to make some major edits to the article page, I'm more than happy to do so. however, the edits I'm likely to make will probably cause stress among some other editors, and given the fragile editing environment here I'd prefer to be careful about that. how would you like me to go forward on that? --Ludwigs2 23:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If I may make a suggestion: How about if you quote on this talk page exactly the edits you would be thinking of making? Then they can be discussed with, I hope, somewhat less stress. At Talk:Chiropractic we often copy whole sections of the article onto the talk page and edit them there for a while. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

ok, but give me a couple of days to get around to it. --Ludwigs2 21:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Sure, take your time, it's only a suggestion anyway. I also have a question for you, Ludwigs2. Having read the article, much of this talk page, and having done some web searches, I have the impression that in the reliable sources available out there, there are a lot of sources recommending Quackwatch, a number calling it "excellent" etc., and not many sources criticizing it. The web search turned up the title "Valuable resource despite anti-alternative medicine slant", which I thought was a nice summary of the situation, but perhaps the name of that website has been changed because I couldn't find an actual article with that title. Anyway, my question to you, Ludwigs2, is: do you agree that there are more reliable sources lauding than criticizing Quackwatch, and do you agree that therefore, according to NPOV, this article should devote more space to the praises than to the criticisms? ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with that at all. I'm not at all averse to the current version of the article, actually, except that people keep pushing to remove, minimize or disparage the criticism that's there now. really, when I first helped to rewrite this article a couple of months back (circa here - not sure that this is the best version), the result was nice, if maybe a little heavy on the criticism at the end. but that got edit-warred out of existence before I got around to addressing that. there's no way that criticism should be the predominant voice in this article; but it is a voice, and it should be presented appropriately. --Ludwigs2 06:53, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

(<<outdent) Suggested compromise wording: "David Hufford, a writer about alternative medicine and professor of humanities, in a presentation invited as a counterpoint to an anti-alternative-medicine presentation, suggested ..." This is a shortened version of the disputed text.

Ludwigs2, thank you for your reply. Since you've indicated that you're not averse to the current version of the article, I suggest that it's appropriate for the POV template to be removed.☺ Coppertwig (talk) 20:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

yes, removing the template would be fine with me. however, that compromise wording doesn't really work. Hufford is not a professor AND a writer about alternative medicine; he is a professor who writes about it in his capacity as a professor. would we say 'joe is someone who works on pipes and a professional plumber'? 'frank is someone who cuts people open and a surgeon'? 'jill is someone who handcuffs people and a policewoman'? writing is a given part of being a professor - separating it out as something separate merely makes his writing sound non-professorial (which is not the case). plus, the 'counterpoint to' phrase is simply unnecessary and misleading. --Ludwigs2 22:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

"'counterpoint to' phrase is simply unnecessary and misleading" Necessary per NPOV. Not misleading in any way that anyone has demonstrated here. --Ronz (talk) 16:09, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I assumed that the 'misleading' aspect was as obvious as the unnecessary aspect. this is an article about Quackwatch. the 'anti-alternative-medicine presentation' (AAM) that you are referring to did not in any way deal with QW and so it doesn't belong in the article on its own merits. nor is the Hufford thing simply a response to the previous presentation (academics rarely do that - generally they write independent pieces with little more than a rough idea of what the other academics are doing), and so the AAM is not being offered as a necessary context for understanding the hufford piece. the AAM thing was only introduced in order to cast Hufford as 'pro-alternative medicine' (PAM) so that his opinion could be presented as that of a biased AM advocate rather than an unbiased academic. i.e. it is unnecessary, and being pushed on the article because it is intentionally misleading.

look, I know you want to treat hufford as an advocate, but I'm going to continue to insist that you treat him as an academic, and I'm pretty sure that I have policy, reason, and common sense on my side. is it really worth your time to keep pushing this silliness? --Ludwigs2 21:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Some history regarding the balance of positive remarks and criticisms

Here's a bit of history regarding the balance of positive remarks and criticisms here. It has previously been filled with huge amounts of criticism, including from dubious sources. This was before WEIGHT was understood or constantly invoked. I suspect things have ended up this way because of any of the positive remarks or criticisms being hotly contested at every step. That happened at both the Quackwatch and Stephen Barrett articles, with actual attempts to delete the articles because of claims by critics of them not being notable enough! That of course created a demand for better documentation/positive remarks (more RS refs and precisely attributed quoting), which resulted in very well-sourced articles and extensive proof of their great notability and acceptance by mainstream RS. That was a big Pyrrhic victory (i.e. loss) for critics, who have hopefully learned that the Quackwatch/mainstream POV is usually right for a reason, namely because it usually is right and can document it using RS. Challenging mainstream POV ends up costing critical editors far more than it is worth. They lose at the local article level and force Misplaced Pages to implement more and tighter policies regarding fringe POV. From a Quackwatch/mainstream POV, this is very positive, as RS are generally much more positive and available from mainstream reliable sources, rather than criticisms, which are usually from fringe sources which often fail V, RS, and NOR requirements. This is how Misplaced Pages's sourcing and weight policies parallel principles found in science and EBM. Reproducibility, verification, and reliability are requirements for both Misplaced Pages and science.

MastCell has written something tangentially related to this subject:

• Look, the fact is that advocates of fringe or minoritarian viewpoints have a tough road to hoe on Misplaced Pages. This is supposed to be a serious encyclopedia. Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work. WP:WEIGHT codifies this. Of course minority or fringe viewpoints can be represented and covered, but advocates who relentlessly push for favorable treatment of widely discredited fringe viewpoints and refuse to bow to any sort of consensus or Misplaced Pages policy don't last long (or rather, they shouldn't but often do). MastCell 00:08, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

-- Fyslee / talk 04:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

<sigh...> Fyslee, the problem Misplaced Pages has on this article (and so many others) is that many people (on all sides) treat this like a war. when I read phrases like "Challenging mainstream POV ends up costing critical editors far more than it is worth", it boggles me. the only win/loss, cost/benefit issue that matters is the credibility of Misplaced Pages as an encyclopedia, and if you're so tangled up in fighting this coterie of supposed 'critical editors', then it doesn't matter whether you win, or they win, or you both fight it out to a draw; either way wikipedia loses.

I swear, people learn nothing from history... --Ludwigs2 23:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I started out with a little "bit of history," and you reply with "I swear, people learn nothing from history..." Hmm... now just what has the history of this article taught us, at least us who have been here for several years? That its existence has been a thorn in the side of its critics and they have made it a place to carry on their real world crusade against it, even to the point of trying to get it deleted. Now that happens to mean they have treated Misplaced Pages like a battlefield. The article used to be a huge pile of criticism of all kinds from all kinds of sources, including very dubious and un-RS ones. Of course a reaction has occurred, and - humans that we are - none of us is totally innocent in this matter. It shouldn't be this way, but that's what the history of this article has taught us. You should study its history, if you have a few months to spare. It has included AfDs, RfCs, ArbComs, blockings, indef bannings, etc.. Why? Because this is the canary in the mine, and some wish to kill the canary, and others believe it has a purpose and should live. Ultimately, as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, that all means nothing. It should just be allowed to live as any other article about a notable subject and be edited accordingly. I would hope that by now such real world attacks on Quackwatch would cease or at least diminish here at Misplaced Pages, but it continues to some degree. Let's try to raise ourselves above such things and collaborate. The best articles are written by editors who hold opposing POV, yet who seek Misplaced Pages's best and collaborate. Let's not hide our POV or pretend. Let's just recognize them, become collaborators, even friends, and work together. -- Fyslee / talk 00:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your last comment means. But as for your earlier comments, it is a war at times. This is the first place everyone goes for medical information. There shouldn't be articles that state the eye of newt or warm camel urine does anything, but so many articles have bogus and unsourced information for treating and preventing disease states. We hold the line passionately, not because we enjoy fighting the friggin' war, but because there has to be an ethical standard that we uphold. OrangeMarlin 23:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

as far as that goes, I totally agree with you (and so would most editors, I think). I would not like to see articles that make treatment recommendations at all, because even with standard medicine that would get people in trouble (maybe we should add that to the NOT page: wikipedia is not an electronic doctor). but I also happen to think that readers should be able to get basic and unbiased information about theories and practices and beliefs of all sorts, even those that are untested, unproven, or even completely debunked by modern science. It's one thing to add in the necessary facts and sourcing that will keep some clueless 14 year old from being convinced that some bizarre, sketchy theory is the god's-honest TRUTH, but if we push that too hard, we end up violating WP:NOTCENSORED only because some of these theories offend our scientific sensibilities

really, I know it feels like a war sometimes, but it's not. it's an encyclopedia, nothing more. the more it gets militarized (i.e. the more it gets broken into opposing camps; us against them; with us or against us; fighting against an irrational foe) the less consensus works, and the crappier the encyclopedia gets.

as for the last line - what can I say. this problem is not even new on wikipedia, much less new in the world as a whole. when people have a problem with other people, nine times our of ten they'll try to resolve it through name-calling, mudslinging, or worse. it almost never works (and when it does, it never works out the way people want it to work out), but next time they'll try it again anyway. god have mercy on anyone who suggests that they try to talk out their differences - --Ludwigs2 01:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Formatting of quotes

One thing I have noticed is that the manner in which quotes are formatted is sometimes different in the same articles many places here at Misplaced Pages. That applies here as well. This is an unfortunate way in which editorial POV can creep into an article. An editor can insert a quote and make it more noticeable than other quotes. It may even happen with no ulterior motives than personal preference for a certain method of formatting, but it's still not right. Some quotes are indented in the simple and normal ":" or "*" manners and others are indented and formatted using the <blockquote> or {{quote}} template formats.

I think all quotes should use the simple wiki markup ":" or "*" methods of indenting, unless there is some special reason not related to editorial POV for doing otherwise. It isn't proper to highlight some quotes in big quote boxes, while others are kept more obscure, sometimes even hidden as part of the inline text, even though the quotes are several lines long. I think MOS allows both methods, but I find it to be misused at times, and would rather avoid making POV differences.

I have undone such formatting (the last two methods) in several places where I have found it, but will wait for comments before doing it here. I would like to simplify the existing blockquotes in this article. What think ye? -- Fyslee / talk 04:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Any responses? If not, I'll proceed as suggested. -- Fyslee / talk 05:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Done. -- Fyslee / talk 19:10, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I had been thinking of replying but hadn't quite figured out what to say yet. However, I think it looks better the way you've formatted it with colons, so it's still indented but without coloured boxes. (Or do I not need to bother saying this because nobody's allowed to revert it anyway?– just kidding) ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 01:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

We're not writing newspaper article here

We're writing an encyclopedia article. Searching high and low for sources that mention Quackwatch, then finding ways to add them into the article is not how encyclopedia articles are written when the sources are from primary sources not mentioned by any other sources.

Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Misplaced Pages editors.

--Ronz (talk) 23:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

If they are from RS, they can potentially be useful. -- Fyslee / talk 06:34, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, but without the secondary sources to support them, we almost guarantee ourselves WP:OR problems. NPOV problems as well if the primary sources since we'll have difficulty presenting the information in a balanced manner without relevant independent sources to guide us. --Ronz (talk) 15:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor edits

I propose to do the following edits:

• In the lead, change the wikilink of "criticizing many forms of alternative medicine" so that only the words "alternative medicine" are within the double square brackets, since that give the reader a better idea of where the link is going;
• In the Reviews section, join the second, third and fourth paragraphs into one paragraph;
• Also in the Reviews section, move the "Donna Ladd" paragraph up to become the second paragraph of that section.

Let me know if any of these would be considered reverts, or feel free to comment on whether to make these changes. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

If it's any consulation I consider them edits (that thing we do here) rather than undefined reverts. A read thru your changes are fine by me as they are relatively minor and improve readibility somewhat. Shot info (talk) 02:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

LOL– well, I'm not going to search the whole page history to see if the paragraphs ever happened to be in that other order, etc. But if I happened to stumble onto something people had been edtiwarring about ... oh, yeah, I forgot, there couldn't have been any edit wars. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 02:20, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

References for Quackwatch

Here are two references I was going to add to the Quackwatch article but I forgot what I was going to write. Please give it a try if anyone is interested. I have lost interest in editing the article. Thanks. QuackGuru 04:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

They could perhaps be added to the sentence beginning "Sources that mention Quackwatch.org as a resource for consumer information include...", i.e. "PC World" and "WebMD" could be listed in that sentence, with those sources as footnotes. Alternatively, perhaps a sentence could be added along the lines of "An article in PC World listed it as one of three websites for finding the truth about Internet rumours, and WebMD listed it as one of eight organizations to contact with questions about a product."

However, I think it would be better to reduce the length of the "Public Comments" and "Reviews" sections, and combine them into a single section presenting both positive and negative comments in a NPOV way. These references bear some resemblance to directory listings and may not be notable enough to include. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 17:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Edit-warring

Hi all, I see that a dispute is brewing on the article. Can I please remind everyone that when engaging in controversial edits, that it's a good idea to discuss things at the talkpage? Please don't just battle it out in edit summaries. Thanks, --Elonka 00:59, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any reason for reverting (most of) QuackGuru's edits. The information he added seems notable and appropriate, while much of the information he removes is of at most marginal relevance. It's probably best to discuss the sections individually.

And see no reason to include Hufford, either, although I didn't remove it in my last edit. Is there a claim that he's a notable expert in a relevant field? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:05, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

thank you, I couldn't agree more.

the two points are at issue here:

adding text to make Hufford look like something other than an academic

this has been discussed ad nauseum. Hufford is an academic, and trying to frame his work as the work of an advocate is inappropriate, and I daresay goes against NPOV

removing a properly sourced comment by Barry Chowka, because it refers to Barrett

Barrett is the sole purveyor of QW, and it is clear from the context that Chowka is referring to Barrett in his capacity as sole purveyor of QW. you want to change the quote a bit, fine, but I see no need to remove properly sourced material

I'll add that I am disgusted with this. SA and QuackGuru have repeatedly failed to make decent arguments for inserting changes like this, and repeatedly return to edit war them back in until we force them to discuss the matter on the talk page (where they once more fail to make convincing arguments). how long is this going to go on before someone bans them from this article entirely? --Ludwigs2 01:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

You write that "Barrett is the sole purveyor of QW." You obviously don't know much about QW or it's editorial functions and contributors. -- Fyslee / talk 16:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The article was actually completely stable for a month. Does anyone have any idea why it suddenly de-stabilized again? I'm open to re-establishing ArbCom Enforcement conditions, but hopefully that won't be necessary. Stay cool, everyone. Let's stay focused on the article, not the contributors, and that's probably the best way through this. If there are edits in violation of policy, please diff the exact edits (without attacking the editors), thanks. --Elonka 01:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This edit that Ludwigs2 considers a minor edit (edit was marked as minor) deleted improvements made to the article. Can anyone explain the edit.

This article is about Quackwatch and not Barrett. Adding undue criticism is clearly an NPOV violation. QuackGuru 01:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the article should be reverted to the stable version and that new edits be discussed and agreed upon first. Chowka mention of Barrett is in context to the website Quackwatch. Obviously that can be restored. The well-poisoning of Hufford had been suggested before but never agreed upon. Both edits should be undone. Again, let's restore the article to the stable version and let's resume discussion if necessary. Is that not the Solomonic thing to do here? -- Levine2112 01:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that restoring to the last stable version is usually the best way forward. Controversial edits (or those that turn out to be controversial) should be discussed here first. BRD isn't a good editing method here. -- Fyslee / talk 16:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you on the well-poisoning; although he apparently specializes in sociological discussion of alt-med, the relevance of that fact is unclear. However, the question of whether Hufford's opinion is of interest is a separate one. The Chowka sentence needs to be rephrased, but I'm perfectly willing to believe that sourcing is possible. The question of whether published short-lists including QW as a "reliable", "credible", or "helpful" source should be included is also open. (Personally, I consider those at least as relevant and notable as Hufford.)

Actually, I would consider the Solomonic approach to include all adequately sourced material from both version (i.e., removing the questionable characterization of Hufford, and rewriting the Chowka sentence slightly to indicate he's discussing QW), and decide then what to remove as being non-notable. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The article was "stable for a month" because most editors gave up on editing the article under Elonka's sanctions, as being unworkable. QG should be blocked if those sanctions are still in effect, but I don't think they should be considered in effect. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:10, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

QuackGuru is at 0RR if the conditions of editing is still in effect according to Elonka's defintion of a revert. QuackGuru 02:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Arthur, I think I would agree to your suggestions above, except possibly the last (my worry is that the 'Solomonic' approach would result in a huge infusion of minor and questionable pro-quackwatch quotations that would make an incredible mess to sort out). and I'll add that I don't mind contextualizing Hufford's quote a bit, but I've been objecting to the wholehearted attempt to cast him as an altmed advocate rather than an academic. we can discuss that as well.

QG, apologies if I marked that edit as minor - Twinkle bit me. it should be clear from the summary, though, that I was not trying to do anything subversive. I'll add, however, that I am upset that you and ScienceApologist decided to revisit this page with a wave of controversial edits, when you know there is a long-standing dispute on the page. you should have started by introducing the topic on the talk page.

I second the motion that we revert page to a stable version and take up the discussion once more. --Ludwigs2 02:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that the so-called "stable" version is a reasonable reversion point. And we already have a lot of "minor and questionable" anti-QW quotations.  :) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 03:07, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

When there is so much controversy about the way this started, we need to start over and take it step by step, starting here at the talk page. Please revert. I suggest we use this as the last stable version, right before an undiscussed deletion. -- Fyslee / talk 16:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Though I disagree with the appropriateness and accuracy of some of the material in that version, I agree that it would be a good starting point. Let's revert back to that and then let the discussions truly begin. -- Levine2112 17:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with the appropriateness and accuracy of some of the material in that version (although I suspect we have little agreement as to which sections are inappropriate or inaccurate), but it seems a reasonable starting point to me. It won't do much good unless QG and SA (and some of the anti-QW editors, as well) sign on, or would be sanctioned if they don't concur. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:16, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Please explain why editors want to revert back to an old version and remove newly added text and references. Removing the newly added would be supporting edit warring and undue criticism. The problem is with the editors who continue to violate core Misplaced Pages policies including NPOV. Misplaced Pages does not enforce NPOV. If Misplaced Pages enforced NPOV there would never be any edit warring. We need a new kind of conditions of editing. We need NPOV enforcement and all the NPOV violators (anti-NPOV edits) and their supporters would be shown the door. QuackGuru 18:44, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

(undent) I support the proposed reversion. I say do it, and if QG wants to make an edit war out of it, we'll request aid from administrators

QuackGuru - if you don't want an edit war, that's good. I suggest you make arguments for your proposed changes on the talk page where we can discuss them properly and come to a reasoned consensus. --Ludwigs2 21:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the previous editing conditions: They were only temporary, and expired on August 30, and have not been renewed. So there are currently no active restrictions on this article. See Talk:Quackwatch/Archive 15#Conditions for editing and Talk:Quackwatch/Archive 15#Restrictions followup. --Elonka 21:27, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry. Perhaps there should be some active restrictions. May I suggest 1RR for all? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I was hoping that editors would step up and volunteer to follow 1RR. Given the recent situation, I think that an across-the-board restriction would be more agreeable to all. --Ronz (talk) 16:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The goal is to improve the article. A 1RR restriction would not improve the article. How about an NPOV enforcement. The editors who support and make and VPOV violation would be banned from this article a week at a time. This edit removed references and text and added undue criticism. The editors who continue to support violating NPOV or make an NPOV violatiuon edit should be banned and then if they continue then blocked. The NPOV violators and the editors who are supporting the NPOV violation can be banned. No explanation has been made for removing the recently added new sources and text. The editors who agree with this edit have never explained any reason for removing the text and references and went against NPOV. QuackGuru 16:58, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, NPOV is extremely hard to enforce. I'm not sure if we could even come to consensus on what recent edits actually violate NPOV. Do you have suggestions on how to enforce NPOV?

"No explanation has been made for removing the recently added new sources and text." Yes, it's sad that most of the discussion appears to be on what version to revert to, rather than on objections and compromises to the recent edits. --Ronz (talk) 17:23, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

restored

I have restored the sept 10th version, per the discussion above. NOW let's discuss the proposed changes. --Ludwigs2 22:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Your revert has ignored my previous comment. You have not explained your removal of references. Please stop. QuackGuru 22:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion instead of edit-warring

I suggest that the regulars who like to revert without any discussion on this talk page hold themselves voluntarily to WP:1RR. --Ronz (talk) 16:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Recent edit-warring

• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Quackwatch&diff=prev&oldid=239669348
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Quackwatch&diff=prev&oldid=239665417
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Quackwatch&diff=prev&oldid=239682155
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Quackwatch&diff=prev&oldid=239856502 http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Quackwatch&diff=239870134&oldid=239856502
• An editor has made about four reverts in a 24 hour period after being warned about edit warring. What is most odd is that all the edits were marked as minor. QuackGuru 21:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The latest edit removed references for absolutely no resaon. QuackGuru 22:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

This comment has the appearance of a point violation and has ignored my previous comment about removing references. QuackGuru 22:12, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

At least one of those was removing a WP:BLP violation, and the last was by an apparent consensus. But you can bring to WP:AN3 if you want to. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:15, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks as though it already has been reported. I added your points re: BLP and CON. But if you want to chime in there as well, it may be useful. -- Levine2112 22:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Ludwigs2 blocked for a week for edit warring, disruptive editing and incivility. All involved should carefully consider their edits here and note the warning at the top of the page. Vsmith (talk) 22:55, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what is going on here but I removed a comma from the lead sentence that clearly shouldn't be there. I marked the edit as minor and I stand by that action as it was a minor grammatical correction. I was then accused of making a major edit and my edit was reverted. I've redone the edit as it really should be completely non-controversial. But I'm removing this article from my watchlist so if y'all want to revert my edit again and keep the misplaced and grammatically incorrect comma in the lead sentence then you're welcome to do so. --ElKevbo (talk) 23:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Removing Hufford

Per Arthur Rubin's suggestion above, I removed Hufford. I have come to believe that he is not offering a "review" of QW but, like the NR article removed previously, was simply commenting in the context of a larger topic. Off-handed comments are not reviews and unless we plan on documenting every one, should not be included in articles unless there is some independent connection of these off-handed comments back to the subject of the article.

ScienceApologist (talk) 17:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Arthur Rubin didn't suggest removal at all. Further, even if he had, we should all discuss and agree on that first, before it is removed. As it stands, I disagree that it should be removed and will revert accordingly. -- Levine2112 17:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Levine2112 has not explained his reason for disagreeing. QuackGuru 17:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

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