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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jehochman (talk | contribs) at 19:13, 21 September 2008 (→WP:WQA: You seem to have waded into a thread about me). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
If I have started a conversation on your talk page, feel free to respond here. If you leave a message for me here, I will respond there and here as well.
As a non-admin, I can only see part of the evidence on the case. I therefore don't feel in a position to produce a definitive judgment one way or the other. You've come to a decision and presumably if the individual behind Nobody of Consequence re-offends, then his previous will be taken into account even if the link is not visible to the rest of us. If it doesn't give away too much, could you add information to the IPCOLL battle report page.
Igt the impression than Saxophone may be a more real account than ED for that particular user. If you are in communication with him, then you rpesumably can decide which to unblock in the longer term.
Hi Peter. First, thanks for your trust and suport. I appreciate that.
In fact, I am in contact with Einsteindonut in private. Of course, the ArbCom has all details of both cases.
I fully understand your concerns very well Peter. At the absence of complete evidence people use to have legitimate questions. I'd have done the same... ask and present my concerns. I hope my following points would help clarify the whole issue and give you some answers:
I'll start with this... True, what I posted on AN is my decision. However, as you may understand from there, those decisions can be challenged, tweaked, changed depending on people's opinions. We could have just decided it in private (ArbCom). At the opposite, I have tried to involve as much people as possible. I've sent requests to a dozen of people who had commented on the issue before - including you. Between that and taking action, I received his confessions and explanations which I posted on the board. I then took action because of those new developments. An action was needed to be taken while waiting for the community's input. Discussions could follow. The discussions are still open out there. For instance - and regardless of the lack of complete evidence, people can still judge the case based on what we have as public knowledge. All what I have done is to try to balance between transparency, decision sharing and privacy. This is not an easy task Peter. One must be very careful. Any small mistake and you'd be in big troubles. In brief, the decision is still up to the community. I took action and have no single problem if people decide otherwise. I've never argued about people opposing my decisions (I argued sometimes but against tiny minority views on my decisions). But telling people that it is a decision set on a stone would be nonsense, especially when it is not an ArbCom decision.
CheckUsers have confirmed my findings.
The ArbCom is fully aware of all particular details of this whole case (Einsteindonut's case included).
Most of relevant details are public knowledge. IP attacks are public knowledge. NoC's contributions are public knowledge. You can see NoC here here reporting an anti-semite incident. The other account I blocked (referred to as Z) is also public knowledge (it was first limited to admins since it was used to redirect the now deleted NoC's userpage once) and it can be found on my blocking log. He did the same (check contribs) and everyone - including unregistered users - can verify. The account I left did the same as well and it is private knowledge (only ArbCom and CheckUsers know about it and consequently its contributions). I, therefore, believe that there's no need for the community to worry about the absence of complete evidence.
...if he re-offends... Well, the reply to that is obvious... He'd be re-offended (sorry for the term - it is only a figurative one since ethically, administrators should never offend but block) by being out of Misplaced Pages forever. For now, evidence above suggests that he is more an anti-antisemite than an anti-semite. wp:AGF wins for now. Is this nonsense?
For the rest (very important)... These are very sensitive cases Peter. The sensitivity is related to the privacy of both users. I, of course, understand and totally agree with the basis of these privacy concerns. Both users have requested their privacy to be protected. They both have legitimate concerns (I won't enter in details but possible RL threats and harassment is a major concern for both of them - i.e. Nazi and Jihadist issues). Naturally, I have given them positive responses. This may sound moot since Misplaced Pages, by default, has the obligation to protect all its users with all possible manners. I am just saying it for the record.
I'll be posting a very important note at wp:IPCOLL. However, and before doing that, I have promised Einsteindonut to review his case. I'll start doing this tonight. I'll be needing help and I'd appreciate if you can contact me via e-mail. Your insights will be very welcomed.
If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding {{hangon}} to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 17:11, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
You may want to actually redact a few bits and bobs of information in your explanations - I got a bit curious and investigated a little, and was able to determine the usernames X, Y and Z within about 10 minutes (despite not having admin privileges). Brilliantine (talk) 05:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I won't blame you but I'd blame myself and some of the members of the community who would just argue and won't relax a little and think about privacy first (i.e. My opinion is that full disclosure would be more appropriate or This should not be a decision of a single admin or an arb, blah, blah, blah....) Incredible! The problem is that their knowledge of the basics of the case is limited but still...! Whatever you do, you'd just fail somewhere because of that and the intensity of the investigation itself. I appreciate people saying at least "tank you for your work before arguing against a decision. But well. They don't - I am referring mainly to a single editor as you could notice (not more than one). Could you please fix it yourself Brilliantine as I got confused? I've got a headache because of much investigation and baseless arguments. A tip, you could do it while commenting on other issues without people noticing it (reducing the exposure at least). -- fayssal / Wiki me up®05:37, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to be a pain. I think you've done a sterling job, by the way. I'll see what I can do, assuming that Y is the one that needs to be kept private. Feel free to blank this discussion once you've read this. Brilliantine (talk) 06:14, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
For your editing contributions, your patient and tireless work in protecting the project and ensuring a healthy and collegial editing environment, and your ability to see things from multiple perpectives, etc., etc. This barnstar is for you Tiamut19:17, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the notice Anthony. I don't believe I took my decision based on the intention of the proposal.
The second proposal suggests that, in this particular instance, the Committee did act as a fact-finder before finding "no evidence exists." It has not been the case. Yes, the Committee may have acted as a factfinder but there was no plaintiff in that instance.
Mackan explains it well (i.e. evidence of absence -- absence of evidence when evidence should be present; which is not the case) and Newyorkbrad's makes a good point when he says that "'s confident that if Cla68 had made another comment perceived as threatening in the months this case has been pending, it would have been drawn to our attention."
That said, I'd be satisfied with dismissing both confirmations for both proposals. I believe that can do the job and would have no problem to propose it.
I'll give you a parallel... In the case of JzG, there was a RfC where user's actions were addressed. The RfC's final outcome was to observe the user's posterior and future actions (i.e. how would a user act after a RfC). In this case, a follow-up (though non-binding) was needed. That explains why we had to re-evaluate and then re-affirm and confirm the unconfirmed (i.e. JzG's posterior actions - see (E) for JzG). fayssal / Wiki me up®19:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Posterior
I assume that in you meant to say 'Watching his posterior actions'. 'Watching his posterior' means something quite different from your intent. --Barberio (talk) 20:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for supporting me in my RfA, which passed with a count of (166/43/7). I appreciate your comments and in my actions as an administrator I will endeavor to maintain the trust you have placed in me. I am honored by your trust and your support. Thank you, Cirt (talk) 02:54, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Hi, just for clarification: you did actually verify that User:Aminullah (the original user active since 2006) was the same as User:Wikinger, right? Because the CU request was most certainly done by Wikinger himself, who has been waging an absurd socking campaign to get Aminullah blocked as his own sock - a campaign that I had the feeling looked a good deal like a joe job / impersonation stunt, in revenge for Wikinger's own ban. He had just recently created impersonator accounts like AminuIIah (talk·contribs) (capital-i-for-l name spoof) for the same purpose, and several other really nasty little impersonation attempts with other users.
Just wanted to make sure you really checked the right accounts there, because Wikinger is quite adept at muddying the waters with forged "evidence". Fut.Perf.☼09:51, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Hey, could you stop your trolling? If you are not what what you claim is him then you should be the other one. Either way, you should stop it. Next time, I'll block your IPs. Understood? fayssal / Wiki me up®19:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the notice Carcharoth. I have verified what you wrote and I don't believe there is any misrepresentation. I'll be having a look at the whole discussion and give my feedback. -- fayssal / Wiki me up®06:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
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Yes I do remember discussing it; I do not remember consensus. This was one of many issues that I had directly prior to getting blocked and I realize now that it was not resolved. Show me where we found some consensus that would deem this CIA map "biased." I would never have agreed to that, nor do I now. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:09, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Do we really have to get back to 'show me/show you' game? Honestly, we don't want to repeat something and get the same results. Please use your wisdom. -- fayssal / Wiki me up®03:13, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Game? Who is playing games? You claimed that we had some kind of consensus and we didn't. You also claimed "I won't claim it is 'biased.'" Take a look at this:
"# 2008-09-20T22:29:52 (hist) (diff) List of cities in Morocco (removed biased map (please refer to Morocco article)) "
Fayssal, you are the one playing games here. You show me this consensus. I don't understand the question "We have to agree at least that it is 'disputed;'" what is "it" in this sentence? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:24, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I said "I won't'". The situation, the map and everything related to Morocco and Western Saharan stuff are disputed. No?
Okay So you did say that, but you'll refrain from now on for some reason? Why? You also wrote on my talk "We've discussed the map in depth at Morocco's talk page for almost two years before finally reaching that consensus." We didn't reach consensus; you're changing what you're saying, Fayssal. The statement "the situation, the map and everything related to Morocco and Western Saharan stuff are disputed" is vague enough that I can't really disagree, I suppose. I do not think it is controversial or biased in any way to show a map of Morocco produced by the CIA or UN, though. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Why? Because it is not about the CIA Justin. It is about the image being used. There exist other versions and none would be deemed 100% neutral for any side. So the argument is moot.
If one objects and 9 agreed, then there's no problem in terms of consensus Justin. That's why the only viable option for us is to recognize at least that the situation is 'disputed'. This is what I mean... By the way, what do you think about this map. -- fayssal / Wiki me up®04:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Alternatives That map is fine for some purpose, but for showing what "Morocco" is, using an (adulterated) map from the UN or CIA is a better option and consistent with WP:NPOV. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Sure The notion of showing that map in some context if fine with me; there is nothing inherently NPOV about that map - it represents some kind of claim or perspective that is not NPOV itself, though. A preference in the infobox would be to chose a map that represents the international boundaries of Morocco with the text explaining various disputes, occupation, claims, etc. For instance, see Israel. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:01, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Great. In fact, the Morocco_map.jpeg is very suitable for . Why? Because it first shows the dashed boundaries (meaning disputed or non-fixed or whatever -- for that we can add explanations of the situation) plus the cities under Moroccan administration (while, again, explaining the situation -- cities claimed by both parties). What do you think? -- fayssal / Wiki me up®05:09, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
No It's not useful for List of cities in Morocco because that article only lists cities in Morocco proper; why would you include a map that also had Western Sahara, since List of cities in Western Sahara is a separate article? I suppose I wouldn't object to including a map or discussion about cities in occupied Western Sahara, but I do object to replacing the sole map in the the article with one that includes Western Sahara. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:16, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Fair enough. A valid theoretical argument ;). It is not a good valid technical argument though since cities in the are de facto administered by Morocco. Thanks for all Justin. -- fayssal / Wiki me up®05:25, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
What? No, that's not accurate: some of them are, some of them are not. Either way, they are not "in" Morocco, even if they are administered under Moroccan military occupation. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:33, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Justin, you reverted at and I stopped and used the talk. You could at least do the same at Morocco and stop where you are as I've done out there. We've talked about that tons of times. Without the talkpage, you won't be able to change anything. I hope you understand what is WP:Consensus (the process) and abide by it. -- fayssal / Wiki me up®05:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
You seem to have waded into a thread about me, which has now deteriorated, egregiously. It would be a good thing if you could re-read the thread, including the diffs I have posted, belatedly, as nobody had told me about the thread. Jehochman19:13, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
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