Misplaced Pages

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Otherkin

This is an obscure topic, as discussed in WP:V. To quote that section, Subjects which have never been written about in published sources, or which have only been written about in sources of doubtful credibility should not be included in Misplaced Pages. One of the reasons for this policy is the difficulty of verifying the information. As there are no reputable sources available, it would require original research, and Misplaced Pages is not a place to publish original research. Insistence on verifiability is often sufficient to exclude such articles.

The sources here are various websites of dubious credibility. I think Otherkin would be a great topic for a Wikinfo article, but I don't see enough verifiability for this to be included here. Friday (talk) 14:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

• No vote. I'm confused. Doesn't a website count as a published source? There's no rule saying we have to use scholarly sources. ~~ N (t/c) 14:21, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
  • That's not what the nominator said. The article's sources are websites of dubious credibility, and the article seems to be built up from a lot of first-person stories on the Web. The veracity of those primary sources cannot be verified by Misplaced Pages readers, who are thus required to take the article on faith. Misplaced Pages needs to report the results of other people who have studied otherkin; right now, this article collects the experiences of otherkin, which makes it original sociological research. WP:NOR notes that it is rare for an article to be built from primary sources alone, especially if it is a contested topic. Ideally the article would be severely stubified but given its history I don't think the regular authors would be willing to do so, so delete to send the NOR message, and possibly write a new stub based on secondary sources until more can be found to expand the article reliably. I'd consider changing my vote if the article is cleaned up to not take primary sources at face value. — File:Ontario trillium sig.pngmendel ☎ 14:49, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Its credibility or lack thereof aside, it's a belief system which has a great many adherents. Even when you eliminate otherkin.com, otherkin.net, and Wikimirrors, Google still returns >125K hits. DS 14:33, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep - strange, even weird, but encyclopedical. JoJan 14:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

• Comment: Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not saying this should be deleted because the belief system isn't credible. Young Earth creationism isn't credible (to me) either, but clearly it's appropriate to have an article on it. If this article used reputable sources, I would have no issue with it. Some websites are reputable sources, some are not. Anyone can have a website and claim whatever they want. I invite anyone who's interested to read the websites listed as sources. These are personal websites, not cnn.com. Please, let's make this discussion about verifiability, not the irrelevant-to-our-purposes question of the merits of the Otherkin belief system. Friday (talk) 15:25, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

• Keep. Encyclopedias are the repository for obscure articles. Joaquin Murietta 16:07, 30 September 2005 (UTC) PS, why delete an article that cites ^ "Dealing with the Bloodthirst". Sanguinarius: Vampire Guide. as a source? Joaquin Murietta 16:10, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
• keep. Good article about encyclopedic topic. I'd consider the FAQ and otherkin.net to be credible sources, especially because they are written by the community of "otherkin". It's easy enough, given that citations are provided, for the reader to make up his own mind about the veracity of the article. — brighterorange (talk) 16:17, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep If you go to the Talk:Otherkin/Archive 3 you'll find quite a few published sources. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and cleanup -- There are core facts that are easily verifiable here: a number of people consider themselves to be otherkin, the exact specifics of which change depending upon who you talk to. The only parts that are unverifiable are whether what these people claim to be true is actually true (though common sense should tell us otherwise). The fact that these claims are made is undeniable, well-documented, and widespread. I severely question the rationale in interpreting the Misplaced Pages:No original research policy in such an exaggerated way. If we keep things down to object facts and avoid the weirdness we get periodically where certain editors claim it's real, that certain otherkin are better than others, that they are psychic and reinarnated and have animal DNA and yada yada yada as if they were proven, then there is no problem. Documenting nutty fringe beliefs is quite verifiable, as this particular one is not so small that there's any problems involved on that end, assuming we can get past the people constantly inserting their own POV and making false claims that rewriting for NPOV is "disrespectful" shos "bad faith" and whatever other nonsense they come up with. DreamGuy 20:12, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
• Comment I've never heard the term Otherkin before, but conceptually I will agree that as a sub-culture these people do exist... albeit in small numbers. I used to work night stock at a grocery store and the "vampires" would come in occasionally around 3 am. I guess blood goes down easier with an EZ-Cheez chaser. No vote yet though... I want to research the usage of this term more first.--Isotope23 21:03, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, but clean up. I think this is more common than nom would like. --Jacquelyn Marie 22:19, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, agree with cleanup as Jacquelyn Marie stated. >: Roby Wayne 00:05, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and clean up. The dubious sources are not being cited for their dubious veracity, but as products of a subculture. There's a significannt, if fringe, subculture of people who think they are elves or vampires or whatnot, and the existance of a market in books and such about and being sold to such people is evidence that such a subculture exists. - A Man In Black (Talk | Contribs) 01:32, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. The main problem with the article (not just this version, but anything about the topic) is that it needs, perforce, to lump together a very broad spectrum of beliefs, ranging from simple alternate spirituality to pseudoscience to outright lunacy. So some of it is verifiable as much as anything in the realm of religion, spirituality, or philosophy; while other parts are very difficult to source reliably or at all. But it is worth keeping as, at least, a verifiably notable phenomenon (although until reading the article I had never actually heard the term "otherkin", even though instantiations of the belief system had been related to me). MCB 01:51, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep per User:A Man In Black, User:MCB. I've added a reference from a print source as well. Crypticfirefly 05:03, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Being self-admittedly very odd, I've been familiar with this sub-culture for sometime, and am surprised at the variety of places I encounter it. I'm somewhat taken aback to see editors here unaware, which is more reason for an article. Furries alone are more numerous than anyone suspects. Xoloz 07:51, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
• Keep Likability is not a criterion; the subculture's existence is demonstrable, and the term is in common (if not mainstream) use as a quick Google will show without effort. Coren 21:48, 1 October 2005 (UTC)