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Marine Corps Hearing

There are a few elements in the section regarding Kokesh's upcoming hearing that are inaccurate, from my understanding of the UCMJ and Marine Corps regulations.

• They are not "changing" Kokesh's discharge. He has already been discharged once, from active duty to the IRR. The upcoming discharge is his complete discharge from the service.
• Being in the IRR does not mean you are not under Marine Corps jurisdiction. You are still a reservist, subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
• He is not being recalled to active duty. He was given the opportunity to waive his right to appear before a hearing, and chose to do so. Doing so does not mean he is on "Active Duty."

Unless anyone can provide documentation that shows any of those elements are false, I'll be changing them shortly.--Uhlek 19:38, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you're probably right. There is just so much spin happening with this story that all of the media are reporting inaccurately. But that's standard. —Kenyon (t·c) 06:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The hearing is scheduled for today, I'll wait until after the hearing results are announced to make the needed changes. --Uhlek 16:06, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Papers are reporting that the panel has recommended a General Discharge; whether higher will do that is unknown, as is whether Kokesh will appeal. I'd rather not edit the story, and there's no telling what mis-understandings of military law the papers have. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4861746.html htom 03:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Your second point is incorrect. Reservists are not subject to the UCMJ except when under a paid status. UCMJ 1-802.2 is clearly worded on what persons are subject to the UCMJ. Even drilling reservists are not subject except during AT, ADT, and drill times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.207.126.151 (talk • contribs) 18:32, June 5, 2007 (UTC)

Your understanding seems to differ from the Air Force's html at http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm htom 19:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that link confirms my statement. Let's go through it sentence by sentence if we must: 802. ART. 2. PERSONS SUBJECT TO THIS CHAPTER

(a) The following persons are subject to this chapter: (1) Members of a regular component of the armed forces, including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment; volunteers from the time of their muster or acceptance into the armed forces; inductees from the time of their actual induction into the armed forces; and other persons lawfully called or ordered into, or to duty in or for training in the armed forces, from the dates when they are required by the terms of the call or order to obey it. (Mr. Kokesh was not a member of a regular component so (1) does not apply.) (2) Cadets, aviation cadets, and midshipman. (None of these categories apply.) (3) Members of a reserve component while on inactive-duty training, but in the case of members of the Army National Guard of the United States or the Air National Guard of the United States only when in Federal Service. (Mr. Kokesh was not on inactive-duty training which includes ADT and AT as well as drills--none of which are performed by the IRR.) (4) Retired members of a regular component of the armed forces who are entitled to pay. (Again, does not apply.) (5) Retired members of a reserve component who are receiving hospitalization from an armed force. (Does not apply.) (6) Members of the Fleet Reserve and Fleet Marine Corps Reserve. (These are people who have retired with at least 20 years but fewer than 30 years of service, therefore it does not apply.) (7) Persons in custody of the armed forces serving a sentence imposed by a court-martial. (Does not apply.) (8) Members of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, Public Health Service, and other organizations, when assigned to and serving with the armed forces. (Does not apply.) (9) Prisoners of war in custody of the armed forces. (Does not apply.) (10) In time of war, persons serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field. (Does not apply.) (11) Subject to any treaty or agreement which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons serving with, employed by, or accompanying the armed forces outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands. (Does not apply.) (12) Subject to any treaty or agreement t which the United States is or may be a party to any accepted rule of international law, persons within an area leased by or otherwise reserved or acquired for use of the United States which is under the control of the Secretary concerned and which is outside the United States and outside the Canal Zone, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands. (Does not apply.)

So, you see, "my interpretation" matches the plain text of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.207.126.151 (talk • contribs) 00:29, June 6, 2007 (UTC)

It's been many many years, but my understanding is that he is, indeed, a member by (1); I am not a lawyer of any type, however, not even a seabag lawyer. We were taught (granted, back in the 1960's) that you were subject to the USMJ from the time you raised your hand until the end of your period of enlistment plus whatever Congress or the President wanted. I doubt it's shortened over the years, but it is possible (and if so, will be changed.) htom 03:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Your understanding (that he is a member under (1), would require Mr. Kokesh to be a member of a "regular component," which he clearly is not. He is a member of a Reserve Component. The definitions of these terms can be found in US Code: Title 10, 101. The clause of UCMJ-2.2(1) "including those awaiting discharge after expiration of their terms of enlistment", refers to Active duty members who have been involuntarily extended for reasons such as operational commitments, and stop-loss; who remain members of the Regular (Active) Component until they are transferred to the Reserves or fully discharged from service. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.207.126.151 (talk • contribs) 16:39, June 6, 2007 (UTC)

That's interesting. However, note that he was not being punished under the UCMJ. He was being administratively separated, which is a procedure outside the UCMJ. Either way, this far exceeds my layman's understanding of the UCMJ and military law, so, I'm just going to drop it. :) Uhlek 16:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Help

I've done what I can to fix a real weird thing that BlueMarine did but I'm not sure why he did it or just what to call what he did.

See for yourself

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Bluemarine/Adam_Kokesh&action=history

Kokesh shouldn't be mistaken for Bluemarine I know that much. Ncrage 00:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Bluemarine (aka Matt Sanchez) is a conservative blogger who works for Right Wing News. Bluemarine last edited the Adam Kokesh article on Oct. 1 using his IP address 213.255.230.132. As you can see here self-promotion appears to be the primary purpose of his last edit. He used the opportunity to add a link to his own web site. I think that's why he used his IP address instead of his username when he made the edit. I know for a fact that 213.255.230.132 is Matt Sanchez/Bluemarine because he used this IP several times when responding to comments on his talk page. JMarkievicz2 (talk) 04:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Heckling during McCain's speech at 2008 RNC

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/tapped_archive?month=09&year=2008&base_name=interview_with_mccain_heckler

Adam Kokesh was the heckler who help up a sign at the beginning of McCain's acceptance speech at the RNC which read "McCain votes against vets" on one side and "You can't win an occupation" on the other side. After he was thrown out, he gave this brief interview. user:Everyme 03:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Rally for the Republic

Please add a reference to his speech at the Rally for the Republic. It is located on Youtube.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.167.231.150 (talk) 07:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

We can only do that if it's legally hosted on youtube and from what I've found, all instances of the clip are copyright violations. user:Everyme 06:07, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Discharge status?

In the lead, it says he has an honorable discharge; later, it says ... a general discharge under honorable conditions, a discharge status below honorable. Kokesh appealed the decision, and that appeal was denied. Was the general upgraded to honorable, and if so when, and if not, why doens't the lead say "general discharge under honorable conditions"? htom (talk) 21:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Now I've become confused. Was he ever granted an Honorable Discharge? (Note that there are three different discharges being talked about: Honorable Discharge (HD); General Discharge under honorable conditions (GH), General Discharge under other than honorable conditions(GO).) Was the hearing a request to change an HD to a GO, or was the hearing about whether to give him a GH or GO without his having received an HD? htom (talk) 16:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's how it happened according to the articles... He got out of the military with an honorable discharge. He remained in the IRR but was discharged with the honorable unless called back... The Marines tried to discharge him from the IRR with an "Other than Honorable" discharge, which would effectively downgrade the original honorable. So yes, he had an honorable discharge first... Note that there is no such thing as a "General Discharge under other than honorable" as you describe. The "other than honorable," known as an OTH, has serious consequences if allowed to happen. Kokesh successfully fought off this serious OTH and instead got the general discharge, which according to a quote from his lawyer, is a middle ground between bad and good so to speak and without the negative consequences that the Marines tried to get. So the hearing was convened by the Marines to seek the OTH due to the protest activity, but they fought it and got the general... make sense? Aardvark31 (talk) 18:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

If he remained in the IRR he wasn't discharged, he was separated or released. You get a discharge on the transition to not being in the military at all (other than the various militia duties.) There are (as far as I know) five kinds or characters of enlisted discharges:

• Honorable
• General (under honorable conditions) (sometimes can be upgraded to Honorable upon petition)
• General (under Other than Honorable conditions) (not upgradeable to Honorable)
• Bad Conduct (only from a Field or Special Court)
• Dishonorable (only from General Court; considered a felony conviction)

Looks like the language has changed, slightly, since I was typing these, but they are still the five.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/l/aadischarge1.htm

So he was separated to the IRR, generating a DD214 that says "character of service": HONORABLE; and he would have then normally received an Honorable Discharge at the end of that duty. (There are many reasons to issue a DD214, Discharge being one, others are moving to a different service, to the reserves, from the reserves to active, ....) Due to his behavior in the IRR he was considered not to have continued in that character of service status by the USMC, which proposed awarding him an OTH Discharge. His lawyer managed to get him a General Discharge, which is indeed better than an OTH, but not the Honorable Discharge he would have normally received administratively. There never was an Honorable Discharge, from your description, and there is not one now. htom (talk) 19:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

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