Misplaced Pages

1. that ID is not internally consistent;

   /Archive 14#ID on the O'Reilly Factor

2. that the article is too long;

   /Archive 13#notes

   /Archive 13#The Article Is Too Long

Introduction contains too much criticism

As someone who contributed to this article from December 2004 to January 2005, I was curious to see how the article has evolved since. It's great to see a lot more references, and a more structured layout, but I have to say that it appears somewhere along the line (possibly following the recent public attention on teaching ID in schools) an influx of anti-ID editors may have swayed the balance of this article somewhat. I don't see anything wrong with putting criticisms directly after arguments, in fact I think that's the way to go, but I do believe that the introduction offers too much criticism, stated in different ways. I think that one or two negative (i.e. opposing ID) sentences should suffice, and then let the interested reader decide by looking at the arguments that follow. Instead, we currently have around 9-10 of the 12 (only a rough count!) sentences in the introduction arguing for the negative. When I was working on the article, it was more like 3 or 4 of 10. I think some of the comments on the Featured Article page from people who are maybe less familiar with the topic tend to convey this same impression. Well I thought I'd raise it here, before doing anything too drastic with the introduction. --Brendanfox 11:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I think you've missed the point- the content in question is not "criticism" that "opposes ID," but rather descriptions of the responses of those who ID confronts or challenges, namely the scientific community.

According to the guidelines, a proper intro should define the topic and mention the most important points. The format this article uses for doing this is to state the claims made by ID proponents, followed by a summary of fact or the response of the scientific community, media, etc. As for why we include the responses of the scientific community at the level we do, the NPOV policy on covering pseudoscience has been our guide: "the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." That's what this article does now.

As for how much article real estate, number of sentences, etc., are dedicated to the responses of the scientific community, keep in mind that ID challenges the very way science is conducted in a very simple criticism of naturalism. Any response of the scientific communtity justifying it's use of naturalism is going to have to be explanatory, hence long, by necessity.

Please keep in mind WP:FAITH before implying that biased editors have stilted the article again. FeloniousMonk 15:57, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

It is important that this article use the harshest possible terms when criticizing the ID movement and the concepts they promote -- especially in the introduction, because you never get a second chance at a first impression. Further, describing ID concepts with clarity is simply not important because ID proponents are disingenuous ideologues who claim to be doing science, and they need to be exposed, not understood. And if you keep implying that the editors are biased, you could be blocked from contributing to Misplaced Pages. I'm sorry, Brendanfox, you're just going to have to accept it.--Gandalf2000 19:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

;-) Welcome back. (Take a look at the discussions above to get up to speed.) You raise very good points, and I hope we can find some consensus on those improvements, which definitely should not be discarded out-of-hand. Do you care to propose alternative introductory paragraphs?

I recently proposed another approach, simply to cut-and-paste the "Intelligent design debate" and "Intelligent Design concepts" sections right after the first sentence, and then proceed with further edits.--Gandalf2000 19:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I will restate one of my criticisms of the opening paragraph here again, as my last statement of it was archived. The second line of the article is tendentious and provokes suspicion in the reader towards ID without warrant. The structure of this sentence: "Though publicly Intelligent Design advocates state....in statements to their constituents and supporters, nearly all state..." is misleading. First, there is no distinction between "public" ID and ID "for constituents and supporters." Felonius has repsonded to an earlier statement of my criticism with copius documentation of very public statements by members of The Discovery Institute regarding their Christian agenda, which I think goes a long way towards making my point -- it's all public.

But in addition, the structure of this sentence creates a false logical tension, between the Discovery Institute's public cultural agenda, which is blatantly and specifically Christian, and Dembski's claim that Design Inferences are philosophically agnostic, i.e., incapable of making predications of the designer. While many may object to the cultural agenda, there is really no controversy over what conclusions one can reach from a hypothetical successful design inference -- that is to say, you can't get Christianity from ID proper, you can only make predications of the natural object in question. This claim to agnosticism is based on the philosophical efficacy of The Design Inference, as articlated in the Cambridge Press book of the same name. The paragraph -- not to mention the second sentence of the article should be re-written to accurately describe the scope and nature of ID's claim to agnosticism. SanchoPanza 21:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I hope you're return here indicates that you intend to respect the spirit and rules of Misplaced Pages more so than your last visit.

Before anyone here wastes any time responding to criticisms or challenges, answer this question: What evidence would it take to prove you're wrong? I simply will no longer take seriously or reply to challenges that do not address this question. I have found this to be a great general-purpose cut-through-the-crap question to determine whether somebody is interested in seriously contributing to a factual and complete article or just advancing a particular POV. Note, by the way, that I am assuming the burden of proof here - all you have to do is commit to a criterion for substantiating your claim. It's easy to criticize long-term contributors here for being "closed-minded" and unwilling to compromise. Are you open-minded enough to consider whether your ideas might be wrong? FeloniousMonk 22:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

The "Disputed" template

Wade A. Tisthammer, (128.101.39.45 (talk · contribs)128.101.39.12 (talk · contribs)70.94.234.224 (talk · contribs), is again misusing the Disputed template. His objections were discussed here previously ad nauseum, and he failed to understand that the article is reporting facts, not stating facts. It is not saying that the objections to defining ID as science are fact. It is saying that these are commonly made objections to defining ID as science. Wade can find the justification for presenting responses to ID's claim that it's science is here: NPOV policy on covering pseudoscience. FeloniousMonk 22:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Wade, 128.101.39.45 (talk · contribs), changing to a sectDisputed template does not change the fact that the template is not warranted. Either prove that the criticisms listed in the section are not commonly made or abide by the policies and knock it off. FeloniousMonk 23:00, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• Please note the three revert rule - "an editor must not perform more than three reversions on a single Misplaced Pages article within 24 hours of their first reversion."--A Y Arktos (Talk) 23:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

The three revert rule applies to Sock puppets and duplicate identities of the same editor. At User_talk:128.101.39.45#About_your_actions_at_Intelligent_design, User:Tisthammerw is the new login of 128.101.39.45 who has already reverted three times.--A Y Arktos (Talk) 23:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I am not misusing the disputed template; the facts reported really are disputed! I even provided a specific non-creationist example: Del Ratzsch, author of The Battle of Beginnings: Why Neither Side is Winning the Creation-Evolution Debate. Ratzsch's specialty is the philosophy of science and is thus reasonably authoritative. I explained why the facts reported are flawed in archive 18. Contrary to FeloniousMonk's claims, my objections were not discussed ad nauseum; I only had one reply! FelenoniusMonk, please get your facts straight before you criticize me again. The article wasn't just "reporting facts" it was stating the flawed claims as facts. Note especially the part of, “In light of its failure to adhere to these standards...” after describing how intelligent design “fails” the criteria. And even if the article does simply represent the objections without claiming they’re valid, a rebuttal section should be given if only because the objections badly mischaracterize both science and the theory it’s criticizing. This is not to say it is wrong to criticize ID in the wikipedia entry, only that one should get the basic facts straight before doing so. Wade A. Tisthammer 23:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)