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Connections

The reasons to discuss various connections and relationships in the article are two-fold:

• Because that's the information about Timmons that has been important enough to show up in the most reliable sources, namely books.
• To contextualize the otherwise isolated facts, with links to other prominent things and people going on at the time. This applies to the Lennon/ACLU/FOIA/Wiener connections as well as to various lobbying connection. It doesn't make sense to talk about memos he received and sent with no word on how those memos are relevant, not to talk about his great lobbying business without some observations that secondary sources make about it.

Am I right? So why the recent removals? Dicklyon (talk) 16:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Material in a BLP must have some semblance of being germane to the person. The FOIA request had nothing to do with Timmons, hence is not germane. No memo cited the election, hence it is not germane to a discussion of what Timmons did at all. There is, in fact, absolutely no evidence that Timmons did anything at all other than reply to a senior Senator. Per WP:BLP disputed material needs a consensus for insertion in a BLP. Collect (talk) 16:56, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Exactly what is disputed? I think I was very careful not to say or imply anything that was not what the sources said about these memos. Dicklyon (talk) 16:59, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Whether the material is germane at all to the BLP. The memo is in the BLP - fine. Anything else has precious little to do with the biography. This is a BLP, not a political sceed, and must meet WP standards. Unless, of course, you have a cite that Timmons actively pursued Lennon in some way? As for listing employees of a firm, unless you can assert that Timmons was involved in their work, the nexus is broken. Find a cite for Timmons being active in a particular lobbying project - maybe. But absent that, I suggest the list of employees is not germane to this article. Thanks! Collect (talk) 17:06, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure which removals you're referring to specifially, but I'll try to explain 1) why I think the Lennon section should be removed again, and 2) why I removed the Freddie Mac reference. 1) There simply is no connection between Timmons and Lennon. Timmons just signed a reply letter to Thurmond informing him that the INS had taken action. It's completely uneventful. 2) The Bloomberg article states that the person McCain placed in charge of the transition planning was someone who worked in a profession that he says is partially responsible for the demise of the secondary mortgage industry, and subsequent crippling of certain economic underpinnings. The problem with this is a) In McCain's quotes, he is speaking about bureaucratic entities in platitudes, and doesn't mention anything about Timmons' company specifically b) Timmons was not the transition lead, and was never hired by McCain (another falsehood in the first paragraph of this bio).

McCain is not fond of Timmons' profession, and claiming that he named a lobbyist who he thinks "prevented reforms" to the financial inefficiencies as his transition lead is an attempt to make him look like a hypocrite. The only problem in this assertion is that ex- Secretary of the Navy, John Lehman was the transition lead, and McCain never mentioned anything about the role that Timmons' played in any work he might have done with Freddie Mac. If the only point of referencing the article was to list a prior client, then I suggest we use a different source that shows a comprehensive list. Rtally3 (talk) 17:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Just to echo, "material" that is added to ANY bio has to have some relevancy the material that is already there so it is "tied" together so to speak or it has to be noteworthy enough for inclusion in the bio. This, oh course, can become subjective. I am sure there is a ton of both RSed and true facts about this individual, but that does not mean we include it all. Misplaced Pages is not just a collection of facts, especially when it comes to biographies. When adding "material", ask why is it relevant and does it improve the article or is it being added for some other "reason". For disclosure, I am a deletionist/minimalist. Thanks, --Tom 18:56, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The problem here is quite the opposite -- the few things that are published about this individual in RSs are the only notable things about him, and we have a hardcore contingent of editors trying to delete every one of them, in spite of the Misplaced Pages policy that mandates preserving and editing such information rather than deleting it. csloat (talk) 19:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The exceptions to that policy are worth reading. Rtally3 (talk) 21:23, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you suggesting any lack of good faith on anyone;s part? Collect (talk) 21:37, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Rtally: Yes, they are. This doesn't fit any of them.

Collect: Definitely not; sorry if it came across that way.

Cheers! csloat (talk) 22:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:AGF and have a cup of te as well. Collect (talk) 01:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I remain perplexed at what the objections are to the inclusion of details from reliable sources that are relevant to the subjects activities and connections to other historic people, actions, events, etc., as described in those sources. Do we have anything else to go on in writing this bio than these sources? Dicklyon (talk) 01:38, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you go to WP:BLP/N as I consider the material not germane, and irrelevant. Clearly you feel it is relevant to a biography -- so we need added eyes to look at it. Thanks. Collect (talk) 01:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

What clause in WP:BLP do you feel is being violated? Dicklyon (talk) 01:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Try the fact that the reference to the 1972 Nixon campaign is pure Coatrack. That the FOIA bit is totally irrelevant to any biography. Try the fact that the "link" between Lennon and Timmons is a memo to a Senator in response to the Senator's memo. Try the fact that saying the deportation failed has absolutely nothing to do with Timmons or any act of Timmons. Try the claim that Timmons was one of the specific lobbyists for Northrop. Try a few other irrelevant additions which are there solely to defame Timmons. All contrary to WP:BLP and all of which I consider as disputed material in a BLP. Thank you most kindly. Collect (talk) 01:57, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I know which article clauses are objected to. I'm asking which clauses on WP:BLP are the basis for the objection.

I get the point about maybe Timmons himself didn't do the lobbying for Northrop. But how does any of this "defame" Timmons? Dicklyon (talk) 05:34, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Remove the uncited claim then as a start. The defamation is related to the Nixon campaign coatrack re Lennon. And the irrelevant FOIA bit which has no direct connection at all to Timmons. Collect (talk) 13:35, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

You haven't answered what clause in WP:BLP you believe is being violated. And please define coatrack and say how this defames Timmons. Dicklyon (talk) 17:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I removed some "material". Unless we are going to add everything he lobbyied for, what is the point here? Can the sources for the Lennon "link" be placed here also so folks can review that as well? Thanks, --Tom 14:22, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Everything that he lobbied for would be great, but let's limit it to what we can find in reliable sources. What's the problem with the "link"; does books.google.com not work for you? Do you need a page image to be email to you perhaps? I'll be happy to help if that's it. Dicklyon (talk) 17:16, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Problem is that he is not named as the Northrop lobbyist -- which means that whole part is quite tangential to a BLP, interesting as it might be in an article on lobbying. Stuff in a BLP is supposed to be "biographical" of all things! Use of the Nixon campaign is an excuse to put a mention of Nixon into an article beyond what is correct for a BLP. As the event occurred well before the campaign, linking it to the campaign fails common sense. And unless you can say Timmons opposed letting people see his memo, the FOIA bit is totally irrelevant in his biography, though it might be relevant in Lennon's bio. Collect (talk) 17:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

The link to the campaign is very clearly made in the source. The lobbying is what Timmons and his guy Korologos did immediately on leaving the White House. These are the few things published about Timmons in reliable sources. What can we use to support notability if not these sources? Dicklyon (talk) 17:59, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Collect here - I don't think these alleged connections are germane to this article. Kelly 18:41, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

What *is* acceptable to the deletionists here?

Can I just ask, what material that has been reported in reliable sources will you guys allow in the article? It seems one by one, every single thing about this guy that has actually been published is unacceptable to you for one reason after another. Most of the reasons don't seem very compelling to me -- variations of WP:IDONTLIKEIT -- but I'd be more sympathetic to the explanations if it didn't seem like these objections were raised to every single thing that has ever been published about this guy. Is your preference that this article remain a permanent stub without references? csloat (talk) 19:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

My focus is on only referencing material that is fair and balanced, and that seems relevant to the subject as well appropriate for a biography. I have provided reliable sources in my edits. Rtally3 (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

"Fair and balanced"? That's a mandate for including more from reliable sources, not for excluding reliable sources that you don't like. What material from reliable sources do you like here? What's not "fair and balanced" about including what little material actually was published about this guy? csloat (talk) 21:28, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not basing any of this on whether or not I like the source -- a fair and balanced biography shouldn't be compiled by googling his name and dumping in whatever information is found. There was a conservatively written, comprehensive biography in place, which was then subverted by dumping in random media attention. Saying that objections are "raised to every single thing that has ever been published about this guy" is hyperbole. There have been plenty of sources provided with material relevent to the subject. Anything that claims he worked for McCain, or that singles out a particular client of his firm, is not germane to the biography of Timmons. He didn't work for McCain, and there's nothing notable about serving a client. Timmons' firm has serviced dozens of big name clients over the years, and none of the recent media attention found online is anymore notable than other work performed over the years -- especially if it doesn't say anything significant about Timmons' activities specifically. Rtally3 (talk) 16:06, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like you want to be the Fox guarding the chicken coop, if I may mix my metaphors. Dicklyon (talk) 16:11, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Ah, throwing out the old staunch republican insinuations. What exactly am I guarding against? As for Fox news, I've never watched it long enough to know about the slogan, and my efforts have nothing to do with any political views. The only people who have stated a party preference on this page are liberals who have asked for removal of some of the uncorroborated connections that you and csloat continue to push for. Rtally3 (talk) 02:57, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Rtally3's sock-puttetry blocks

In answer to denials and questions above:

This disembling is getting a bit absurd. Rtally3's block log (Rtally3 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) says he was blocked for abusing multiple accounts (Jmcgee2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 68.100.74.123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)), and the block was extended for evading the block via Rtally4 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), which contributed only on this talk page. If these blocks are being challenged, we can ask the blocking admin Georgewilliamherbert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) whether he did a checkuser, or what evidence he had. Dicklyon (talk) 05:38, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I consider attacks on editors to not be within the proper use of talk pages. Collect (talk) 10:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

JMcGee2 was a case of meatpuppetry, as was clearly stated at the time. It was clear who I was on rtally4. So, the theory that the consensus should be discredited on the grounds that it is made up of sockpuppets is completely debunked -- I haven't included these usernames in the consensus. What about some of the other usernames you've said were my sockpuppets? Why aren't you counting those? Rtally3 (talk) 21:26, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh please stop; there is no sense in discussing this. You used sock and meatpuppets; you were blocked; you continued doing it and your block was extended. Presumably you've learned your lesson; nobody's bringing this up to "attack" other editors; you are bringing it up yourself over and over because -- well, I'm not sure why. Nobody is dismissing a "consensus" becayuse of JimMcGee or whoever; the only people who have given serious input on the issues currently relevant are the four of us. That's 2-2. With the addition of DGG, who most recently lent an outside voice, the consensus is now 3-2 for inclusion. And of course regardless of any "vote," WP:PRESERVE suggests that we keep the material in and make changes if there is anything that conflicts with other Misplaced Pages policies. We can do this without deleting well sourced content. Cheers, csloat (talk) 02:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP is what governs here. WP:PRESERVE is vastly misused lately. You have no consensus. Period. Collect (talk) 02:29, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The two policies are not in conflict. Yes BLP governs, as does PRESERVE. In this case BLP requires modification of well sourced content if there is a potential BLP issue. The only issue you expressed specifically has been addressed with a suggested amendment (see bottom of this page). If there are other BLP issues that we can address let us know. Thanks! csloat (talk) 05:12, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:BLP requires consensus for INCLUSION of material which is contentious or disputed. All you do is keep berating an editor for an incident in the PAST which has precious little to do with improving this article. As for being blocked -- your own log of being blocked is quite impressive --as is yout topic BAN on editing here still in effect. Would you consider that discussion germane here? Thank you most kindly. Collect (talk) 13:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I really can't stop you from bringing up whatever irrelevant nonsense you choose to, Collect. Have a good day. csloat (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

How am I bringing this up over and over? You created this section, and you recently reported me for having sockpuppet Hazeldell -- which just wasn't true. If there's no sense in discussing it, then stop making the accusations, and I'll stop retorting. Rtally3 (talk) 03:41, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I didn't create this section; it was created by Dicklyon after you blatantly misrepresented what had happened; I think he was only trying to clear the record. As for my "recently" reporting you, that was a while ago, and I made the report and was done with it. The report was entirely justified, and it still should probably be looked into, but it is not a matter of consequence on this talk page, in my opinion. You are the one who continues to raise it, which is bizarre, since the facts are already crystal clear on the issue. csloat (talk) 19:59, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I realize I'm a few days behind in this debate, but I'm having trouble understanding why you would believe my meager contribution to the debate to be the work of rtally or anyone else. If a group of people agree, they must be sockpuppets? What a bizarre way of debating the facts of Timmons's biography. Hazeldell97202 (talk) 19:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)Hazeldell

Oh for christ's sake, can we please drop it? I'm not the one bringing the sockpuppet thing up. It was brought up earlier because Rtally was caught using sockpuppets, and he also admitted to using meatpuppets. Rtally is a single purpose account whose only purpose seems to be to keep sourced content off of this page. Your account appeared and the first and only comment was an intervention on this (relatively obscure) talk page, siding with Rtally and demonstrating a familiarity with Misplaced Pages policy -- such accounts are always suspicious, especially when associated with another SPA who was blocked for, and acknowledged, sockpuppet violations. This is ancient history at this point; if you're not a sockpuppet, and you don't have any contact with Rtally outside of Misplaced Pages, you have nothing to worry about. It has nothing to do with being suspicious of people who agree about things -- notice nobody suspects Collect of being Rtally's sockpuppet, or me of being Dicklyon's. csloat (talk) 19:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

My account is not a single purpose account, and I have not used multiple accounts to hide my identity as you claim. Suggesting that hazeldell doesn't have anything to worry about seems absurd considering that the account appears to be blocked. And are you currently banned from editing this article? Rtally3 (talk) 20:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Where's the evidence that hazeldell was blocked? That does not appear to be the case, but if it is, I'm sure there was a good reason. And yes, your account is basically a single-purpose account. I realize you started a couple other articles with some plagiarized paragraphs in order to make it look like your account was doing other things, but the reality is that the overwhelming number of edits from your account are to this very talk page. csloat (talk) 06:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Rtally3, it may be that your block and extended block for abuse of multiple accounts was a mistake. But there's little double that your single purpose on wikipedia is to polish the image of William Timmons. You can check your history, here: . Dicklyon (talk) 06:16, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I've made several other contributions to WP. Cherry picking mistakes I made on 2 of them seems like a "bite", and I'm not sure how that is relevant. I choose to partake in the shaping of articles according to my knowledge and interest of the subject matter, as well as the level of improvement that can be made. That has directed me to this page more times than not, and I don't see why that should be a problem. I suggest all efforts would be better spent improving this bio instead of making accusations -- especially considering that one of the accusers apparently has a pretty impressive WP rap sheet himself, and is banned from editing this article. I wonder why... Rtally3 (talk) 03:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

No need to wonder; all that information is as readily available as it is irrelevant to the current discussion. 75.31.200.197 (talk) 06:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

No need to look at your contribs either -- a total of TWO. And you hop in here as whose sockpuppet? Lately, csloat has quite nearly posted as many messages here as Rtally has -- while a relatively new user will almost invariably be "SPA" at the start, it is unuaual for a long term editor with csloat's history to become so attached to one article. Collect (talk) 12:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Watergate?

Nice try that -- I wonder if the section should not be listed as "Advice to Nixon" as Timmons was not implicated in the Watergate scandal. Collect (talk) 01:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

That would be fine. Dicklyon (talk) 01:39, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I forgot to annotate my edit, but I reworded the first sentence, from "Nixon decapitated the department", to "Nixon reorganized the department". The former is an repugnant metaphor and is not the way encyclopedia's read. Rtally3 (talk) 01:18, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

RTally3's Freddie Mac removal

He says in edit summary "The FM sentence was a run on, and singling out the $ amount is irrelevant. Last revert stated that there was no source that said all clients have same fee, but it's actually in the bio, referenced."

Actually, nobody had complained about not having a statement that all clients pay the same; whether it's true or otherwise, the cited source only has speculative info on the amount. What's wrong with reporting the amount from the Freddie Mac source? I'd fix it, but I'm in danger of violating 3RR if I work on this article more today, so I'm taking a break. Dicklyon (talk) 02:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the comments above, but I didn't remove the Freddie Mac reference, and I thought that one of the revert notes said that there was no source claiming that all clients had the same fee, when in fact there was. That being said, there was nothing written about Freddie Mac that was notable or that stood out from any other client, so I cleaned up the superfluous rhetoric and kept FM with other clients, in a clean and sensible fashion. Why expand on any specifics pertaining to Freddie Mac when it doesn't appear to stand out from other companies, especially when you think that the info provided might not even be factual? Rtally3 (talk) 03:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

This diff; your edit summary mischaracterized the previous comments as "Last revert stated that there was no source that said all clients have same fee, but it's actually in the bio, referenced." No revert said such a thing. I think you were referring to my diff here, where I said "Nobody has reported what other clients pay; this is the only report I found, and it's in a reliable source." You're grasping at air. Just put it back. Dicklyon (talk) 03:41, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I apologize for misunderstanding the revert notes, but that really had nothing to do with the reason for cleaning up the section, and was more of a response to the perceived comment. Why should the Freddie Mac info be singled out when it doesn't appear to be any different from any other client, and you think it might not even be factual? Rtally3 (talk) 03:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

In spite of what Collect says, I'm not cherry-picking. Just reporting whatever I can find; I found this article; if you'd like to substitute another report of similar content, if you find it, that would be OK, but why just remove it? Why not find and add new stuff instead of removing sourced relevant info. Dicklyon (talk) 03:57, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I have used newly sourced info to improve the article many times, most recently earlier today. I didn't remove the Freddie Mac reference, I just removed the comments surrounding it for the reasons stated above. Your response to my question as to why the info about Freddie Mac should be included was "just reporting whatever I can find". I'm not sure what the exact definition of cherry picking is, but it certainly sounds like this approach comports with how I intuitively think of the term. I would hope there would be a little more deductive reasoning performed before editing the written history of a man's life -- a little more logic used before moving from premises to conclusions. I think this approach results in a bio that is written in a sloppy manner -- the lobbying section specifically looks like a random assortment of whatever can be found online, regardless if it transitions smoothly or is really relevant to the life of Timmons. Flippantly tossing in whatever you find on the web does not sound like a prudent approach to editing an encyclopedia. Rtally3 (talk) 04:24, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Your idea of "more deductive reasoning performed before editing the written history of a man's life" sounds like what we call WP:OR. I agree that one should not move "from premises to conclusions," but rather just report what's reported in reliable sources. We're not supposed to be writing the history of a man's life here, just what's already in reliable sources about him; that's rather limiting, I know, but it's what we do here. Not "flippantly" as you call it, but including what we can find. And while it's so far only what I could find on the web, I've also ordered six more books that talk about him, as I mention above; from the snippets, it appears that they'll have more interesting bits of what he has been involved in in his lobbying career; other stuff about him is equally welcome, if you can find it. Like some sources for the fact tags that remain. Dicklyon (talk) 06:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The "newly sourced info" that you added earlier today was a misrepresentation of a source that doesn't mention Timmons; you claimed the source supported the statement that "Timmons was found to not be involved in any of the illegal activity surrounding the Watergate Scandal." It didn't say that, and by not mentioning him that's not what it implies; not finding him involved is not the same as finding him not involved, right? Dicklyon (talk) 06:43, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Connecting my suggestion for more deductive reasoning to WP:OR is off base. I'm not drawing conclusions on my own or speculating at all -- in fact I'm doing quite the opposite by cleaning up connections made in the bio that don't appear in the sources. Reporting from reliable sources is obviously fine -- I just don't think you need to throw in every bit of minutia found, or move from premise to conclusion without a reliable source clearly doing as much. It ends up looking like a random assortment of information tossed in the bio that really has no relevance to the subject. The comment "we are not supposed to be writing the history of a man's life here" is perplexing. That is the definition of a biography. Doing this doesn't mean we need to perform original research, but it does mean that we can organize the material found in a organized and sensible fashion. As far as reference # 7 goes-- you're right, it doesn't mention Timmons. It mentions all of Nixon's staff who were found to be involved in the Watergate scandal (i.e. the Watergate Seven). Since Timmons was one of Nixon's staff members, and he is not included in the list of those found to be involved, I think it's fair to say that he was found not to be involved. I don't think there's a difference between the two statements you discuss -- it seems like you're bickering over semantics, but it looks like you already edited this section to elaborate on the sources information, so I don't understand the point in bringing it up. Rtally3 (talk) 16:01, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Semantics is exactly what I'm "bickering" over. You don't seem to understand the semantics of what you write. Dicklyon (talk) 16:06, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Timmons was not implicated in any way in any report by any agency in the Watergate break-in or cover-up. Granted this is not a specific statement found anywhere, but sonce none of the sources findable about any such reports list Timmons as involved, it would be unfair to imply in any manner that he was involved. Collect (talk) 16:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean here. I already cited one source that says how he was involved at the end; it makes no suggestion that he was in any way involved in the coverup or other illegal activity. That's no reason to jump to the conclusion that "none of the sources findable about any such reports list Timmons as involved." Have you read all such findable sources? Neither have I. I agree that we must not imply in any manner that he was involved, but that doesn't justify adding a statement that he was found to be not involved, unless there's a source for that. Just semantics, as Rtally3 would say. Dicklyon (talk) 20:52, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Six books on Watergate. Zero mention of Timmons as a perp of any type. Lots of reading -- to find a negative. If this were on you, would you want a sentence saying "(your name) was not proven to be a murderer" or the like? Golden Rule time here. Collect (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely would not want that. That's why I was surprised when Rtally3 tried to add a negative finding, though he phrased it in the unsupportable way "(your name) was proven not to be a murderer." That's less bad sounding, but unneeded and unsupportable; no need to claim innocence when there's no accusation. I was thinking of the 446 books that mention Timmons on the same page as Watergate; obviously, nobody is going to read them all, and if they did they wouldn't proven a negative. Dicklyon (talk) 00:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't see a big difference between the two statements, but I'm not pushing for my statement to be restored and am fine with the changes Dicklyon made. I do think that the way the section was originally compiled made it seem as if Timmons was somehow involved in Watergate, although no such evidence exists, and that type of editing has been a steadfast problem during the creation of this BLP. Rtally3 (talk) 03:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Steadfast problem? I don't think I've added anything unfair or unsourced, and I've been extremely accommodating of suggested changes. It's just the steadfast throwing out of stuff that gets me down. Dicklyon (talk) 05:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Mediate or something?

Hey, csloat, Rtally3, and Collect, what say we try to resolve this mess? I'm open to ideas. RfC? Mediation? Anyone willing to try? Dicklyon (talk) 03:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

RfC is probably the next step if we can't settle this through compromise; it does seem to be working but at a snail's pace. I agree more eyeballs would be good for this. csloat (talk) 05:32, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

How will you handle your ban on handling anything related to the last campaign help you in the RfC? We already have a couple of new participants here -- albeit they do not seem to agree with you. Collect (talk) 11:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Gee, Collect, if you think I am violating my ban, then report me -- WP:AN/I is where you need to be. But if you're just bringing it up in order to try to undermine my attempts to advance dispute resolution, be aware that your words could be interpreted as a personal attack. Cheers, csloat (talk) 19:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

OTOH, if you had ver been found to use a puppet and it were iterated a few dozen times, that would not be a personal attack. Clear as mud. Collect (talk) 23:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

It's odd to me that you and Rtally keep bringing up his abuse of sockpuppets, and then complain about me bringing it up when I respond. I'm not the one who keeps bringing it up. And I'm really not clear on what you're accusing me of here at all. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion about the article, best to find another forum. Cheers, csloat (talk) 03:14, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Collect, please expand on that thought. What are talking about? Can you list/link the users who you mean as "new participants"? Dicklyon (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Collect, nothing constructive to answer?

Commodore, we have a couple of RfCs above already, with no clear outcome. In my experience, it's very hard to attract uninvolved editors to look and give an opinion; in this article, it seems even hard to get previously involved editors to come back and say if they're satisfied with the improvements or not. A mediation (probably informal, mediation cabal) is a way to get some help airing the issues. Dicklyon (talk) 07:58, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

As Timmons was a "bit player" with not much in the way of books written about him, it would appear that straining to find connections is not really the right thing to do. Jayen is in here now, as are a couple others. Commodore is not doing much other than attacking Rtally, and so we are at this juncture at a point where I am unsure Timmons really merits an article. Collect (talk) 13:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

If you want to propose leaving out stuff that's irrelevant to his notability, we'd need to understand first what is the basis of his notability, and what sources support that. What's your impression on that? It seems to me that with mentions in over 500 books, there's not much chance you could argue that he's not notable enough for an article at all. Dicklyon (talk) 16:53, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

500 books if they all have the same sentence are not actually more informative than one book is. Timmons was a career government employee (22 years or so) who was basically not even in day-to-day contact with Nixon. His most noteworthy accomplishment was reorganizing the cabinet under Reagan. He had nothing to do with Watergate at all, other than keeping tabs on Congressional opinions. His abilities are almost entirely based on structure of authority rather than on political opinions. He is associated with no controversial decisions at all, and his style is to avoid any hint of such. He is simply a vanilla functionary. I can find no hint as to whether he is pro abortion or anti abortion, whether he favors gay marriage or not -- in fact no apparent opinions anywhere are attached to him. Collect (talk) 17:30, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me this viewpoint is contradicted, at least in his early years, by the position he took on Title IX. Dicklyon (talk) 16:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

If you have a reliable source backing up your assertions here, this would definitely be useful material for the article. If not, we've got to go with what is in the 500 sources that do discuss him. csloat (talk) 20:01, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

You can't build a worthwhile encyclopedic biography from 500 tangential mentions. At least, right now we don't have one. Jayen466 22:08, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

What makes them "tangential"? Have you read all 500 books? I certainly haven't. If you have more specific comments about the material actually here, it would be helpful. csloat (talk) 00:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Of the article as it stands, the lede is good, "Personal" reads well but is unsourced. The section "Convention and campaign management" could be structured better ("Timmons has managed national party conventions for several US presidents ... In 1968 ... In 1972 ... the way he did it in 1972 proved influential ... 1976 ... 1980... 1984 "). That Timmons set off a trend in how conventions were held is something worthwhile, perhaps the most worthwhile thing the article says so far. Much of the rest comes off as disjointed bits of information. The lobbying section would perhaps be better housed in Timmons_and_Company. Perhaps there are some among the 500 books that focus a bit more on the man and say more than one or two sentences; that would be helpful. Jayen466 01:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I believe most of what I found in the personal section is from reference #3, but I can't seem to annotate the section without creating a reference #4 that is a duplicate of #3. Help. I agree that much of the 2nd half of the bio awkwardly transitions from excerpt to excerpt, without any real connection or demonstrated significance. It just reads like random morsels of information thrown together. When I'm done reading each snippet I think "...and??" Rtally3 (talk) 02:03, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Named refs: If you name the refs, they will merge. Use <ref name=whatever> same on both; the second one can optionally just omit the details and self-close as <ref name=whatever/>. Dicklyon (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree, if we don't have sources for items they should be junked or we should find the sources. The lobbying material is really the main thing notable about him, however, and the claim that it should be in "Timmons and Company" is incorrect; I agree with DGG's response to that argument here. csloat (talk) 06:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

There is an article on T&Co. That article has not been merged with this one. There is no need nor precedent for having all the same material in both articles. In fact, you have argued elsewhere with precisely the opposite argument you use here. Collect (talk) 11:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Timmons and Company is just a stub so far; looks like merging it here would make more sense, since there's at least as much written about Timmons as about the firm. Dicklyon (talk) 16:24, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Agree. I didn't know there was a T+C article but it is a stub and there is no reason to have both articles. I think this would be the article to keep since Timmons has some notability outside the company but I'm not sure the company would on its own. But I could go either way on that. csloat (talk) 22:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Reorg

Please comment on the reorganization I did; the Lennon thing doesn't get a section head this way, so doesn't seem so prominent. OK? Dicklyon (talk) 07:09, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Corrected the Timmons quote as cited in the source. Collect (talk) 11:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

In addition to restoring the inferred "" into the quote, you removed the context that said what it was about. I fixed it. Dicklyon (talk) 16:21, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I think this is an improvement, although I still think much of the bio is random and irrelevant. I'd also like to get other opinions on the use of "decapitated" in the Nixon section. I find it to be an odious metaphor, and just because it is used in a book doesn't mean we should use it in an ecylcopedia. I changed "decapitated" to "reorganized", and this change was reverted. Rtally3 (talk) 17:04, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Decapitated seems like an apt description of what Nixon did; if you want to replace it, you need to find another way to convey the idea that Nixon removed the heads of the justice department. "Reorganized" misses the mark by a mile. Dicklyon (talk) 18:11, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Dunno, it seems a bit like a collection of things selected to embarrass the subject. If that is so, it is not in line with WP:BLP#Basic_human_dignity. Is it just me, or do other editors perceive it this way too? Jayen466 17:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It's perhaps unfortunate for the subject that his actions that made it into books are "embarrassing". Try to find some less embarrassing things to balance with. Dicklyon (talk) 18:09, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It's unclear at this point why removing these people from their positions would be embarrassing. Perhaps he had good reason. "Decapitated" makes it seem as if his actions were malicious, without any support for that claim. Rtally3 (talk) 20:07, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

"Decapitated" means removing the heads. That can be a good or bad thing, depending on what the heads are being removed from. I'm sure the Nixon Administration had an argument as to why it was a good thing. I don't see why any of this has to be looked at as "embarrassing." I agree with Dicklyon; the evidence published in reliable sources is what we go by, not by whether those things seem "embarrassing" to a particular Misplaced Pages editor. csloat (talk) 22:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Surely Rtally3 is not unaware of how embarrassing this step was to Nixon. I believe the book I cited called it something like the greatest constitutional crisis in American history. It was not a "re-org". But Timmons only assessed the reaction, which grew quickly after his initial assessment; it is now notable primarily for how wrong it turned out to be. Dicklyon (talk) 00:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

The point isn't whether I'm aware of what happened during the Nixon administration. WP articles need to be written with the end user in mind, and assume that readers have no presupposed knowledge of the topic at hand. Otherwise, you're left with an esoteric article. If you want to surmise that someones acts are egregious, you can't simply hint towards the idea without supporting it. That being said, it is okay for the author of a book to write in an antagonistic style, but this isn't appropriate for an encyclopedia. Rtally3 (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Sources

There seems to be quite a lot on Nixon and Timmons in -- Book Title: Nixon in the White House: The Frustration of Power. Contributors: Rowland Evans Jr. - author, Robert D. Novak - author. Publisher: Random House. Place of Publication: New York. Publication Year: 1971. Pages: 106 116 117 120 123 124 125 126 130 132 143 144 232 352 375 376 377 378 379 392 424 430

Here's a small sample:

For now, the tactic at the White House was supposed to be the soft line, a smile and an honest attempt to get along with Congress better in 1971, with a huge new outpouring of legislation ready to be introduced. So, the January 5 statement, far from being planned, was an automatic release of pent-up emotion showing the President's deep-seated animosity against Russell Long's procrastinations and Mike Mansfield's pleas of impotency. He had encountered these procrastinations and these pleas in face-to-face conversation with the senators, smiling a tight little smile and listening without a trace of rancor in his voice. The emotion built up inside and poured out in a rush on January 5.

What also made that statement a clear disclosure of Presidential pique rather than conscious strategy was that the President had just named a new chief of Congressional liaison, who was embarked on a determined policy of kindness toward Congress.

The reason for the change could be traced to the Attorney General. For months, John Mitchell had been advising that the fault lay with Bill Timmons and his hard-working staff, and the President believed him. Mitchell's argument was that Timmons, who had spent his entire career on Capitol Hill as a staff aide, simply did not have the stature to deal with House members and senators. He was, indeed, a ready-made scapegoat. Once the election was over, Mitchell had his candidate for a replacement: Representative Clark MacGregor, who had sacrificed his safe House seat in a hopeless run against Hubert Humphrey for the Senate in Minnesota. Gregarious, aggressive, bright, and a veteran of ten years in the House, MacGregor had favorably attracted Mitchell's attention in 1968 as an early Nixon supporter in a state dominated by Rockefeller sentiment. Now Mitchell convinced Nixon that MacGregor was just the man for Congressional liaison.

When this word began to seep out, it naturally alarmed Timmons (who, in what had become standard practice in the Nixon White House, had not been consulted). Timmons went to Haldeman, who confessed having talked to MacGregor but said his would be a policy-making post with no responsibility over Congressional liaison. Thus, it was with some surprise that Timmons learned on December 1 that he had acquired a new boss; MacGregor was named White House Counsel with direct supervision over all Congressional liaison. In a procedure that after two years had become a familiar pattern, Nixon neither advised Timmons of any displeasure with his work, nor gave him personal prior word of his forthcoming demotion. Indeed, in a White House reception shortly after his demotion, the President went out of his way publicly to praise Timmons for the splendid way in which he had handled Congressional affairs.

— p.377-378

Like I said, there is quite a lot more. The book is available in questia. Jayen466 23:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• There are also a good few mentions of Timmons here: Book Title: Conservatives in an Age of Change: The Nixon and Ford Administrations. Contributors: James Reichley - author. Publisher: Brookings Institution. Place of Publication: Washington, DC. Publication Year: 1981. Page Number: x 85 86 87 88 89 92 159 278 312 441 447 460 481 Jayen466 23:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• Book Title: Both Ends of the Avenue: The Presidency, the Executive Branch, and Congress in the 1980s. Contributors: Anthony King - editor. Publisher: American Enterprise Institute. Place of Publication: Washington, DC. Publication Year: 1983. Page Number: 64:

The Congressional Relations Office was one of the few components of the Nixon White House that never became entangled in the net of Watergate. Nixons director of congressional relations, William Timmons, continues to be a highly respected and soughtafter figure in Washington politics. Such cannot be said about many of Nixon's other senior aides.

• Timmons mentioned on pages 64 68 69 70 114 115 Jayen466 23:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• Publication Information: Book Title: Richard Nixon and the Quest for a New Majority. Contributors: Robert Mason - author. Publisher: University of North Carolina Press. Place of Publication: Chapel Hill, NC. Publication Year: 2004. Page Number: 40:

The congressional-relations operation was truly successful under neither Harlow nor his successors, Clark McGregor and William Timmons. Although this failure was partly linked with the Democratic majorities' hostility to Nixon, the totality of the failure was more significantly linked with Nixon's personal shortcomings. Political scientist Nigel Bowles noted that Nixon showed little interest in the work of his congressional staff and that his general attitude toward Congress was one of "disdain".

— p.40

• Also a brief mention on p. 198. Jayen466 23:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• Book Title: Ronald Reagan's America. Volume: 2. Contributors: Eric J. Schmertz - editor, Natalie Datlof - editor, Alexej Ugrinsky - editor. Publisher: Greenwood Press. Place of Publication: Westport, CT. Publication Year: 1997. Page Number: 738:

During the transition, Reagan also enlisted the talents of William Timmons, a prominent Washington lobbyist and director of the office of congressional liaison for President Ford. Timmons was brought on board to develop detailed summaries of each department for the new cabinet officers. Timmons developed an organizational blueprint of each agency and worked with the Cabinet nominees on the staffing and legislative mandates of their future department. 4 Once the selection process was complete and Timmons had met with the Cabinet-designees, the transition team began an intense orientation program with the new Cabinet officers. According to Martin Anderson, who worked for Meese on the transition team, the Cabinet orientation process was "basically an indoctrination course for cabinet members, especially those who were not closely connected with the campaign or fully familiar with Ronald Reagan's positions on major policy issues. There were two primary things one wanted to indoctrinate the new cabinet on: ideas and people." 5 The transition team worked with individual Cabinet officers to focus their agenda on Reagan's policy positions and to provide a list of personnel. Pendleton James was asked to head the transition team's personnel unit and to develop lists of politically acceptable people for the new administration. 6 They endeavored to ensure a common sense of purpose among the Cabinet officers during the recruitment process, to unify the new political executives and to reduce the strains of what Hugh Heclo refers to as "a government of strangers."

— p.738-739

• Jayen466 23:56, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

• Book Title: Separate but Equal Branches: Congress and the Presidency. Contributors: Charles O. Jones - author. Publisher: Chatham House Publishers. Place of Publication: New York. Publication Year: 1999. Page Number: 146–147:

If the president did not want to bargain personally with the members, he likewise did not want them to come to him. Stephen J. Wayne quotes a House Republican as saying that "I pretty well concluded that there was almost no way to contact him except if you had a personal relationship." 34 This distance between the president and the members was lengthened as a result of the reduced role of the liaison people in White House decision making. Though Harlow had the ear of the president, his successor, William Timmons, did not, and neither was as close to Nixon as O'Brien was to Johnson. In a manner of speaking, Nixon's style did not facilitate legislative lobbying at all. Instead, it contributed a rationale for the distance he wanted between himself and Congress. And, of course, much of what he personally wanted the government to do could be accomplished with limited legislative involvement (at least as contrasted to Johnson). Interestingly enough, Nixon's separation from Congress and his own legislative liaison personnel apparently reduced the effect of Watergate on the president's legislative program. "Despite the awesome political and personal consequences of the congressional investigation and legal controversies, Timmons believed the effect of Watergate on pending legislation was minimal."

— p. 146–147

• Jayen466 00:01, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

• Time Magazine article: The Swarming Lobbyists: Mention of Timmons on page 1; the article is also quoted in full in Book Title: Contemporary Readings in American Government. Contributors: Byron W. Daynes - author, Raymond Tatalovich - author. Publisher: D. C. Heath. Place of Publication: Lexington, MA. Publication Year: 1980. Page Number: 119ff. Jayen466 00:08, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

• Book Title: Organizing the Presidency. Contributors: Stephen Hess - author. Publisher: The Brookings Institution. Place of Publication: Washington, DC. Publication Year: 1988. Page Number: 130: "The president's helpers cannot simply be dismissed as a collection of intellectual ciphers; they represented a substantial reservoir of talent at hand. But Nixon was inclined to draw on it for specialized and technical advice and then, as had his White House working groups, invite his advisers to leave the room. The decisions that ended his career were taken alone. Nixon's relations with Congress were also as he wanted them to be, despite a liaison staff--Harlow, Clark MacGregor, William Timmons--deeply versed in the sensitivities of Capitol Hill. Even of Haldeman it was said, "If he didn't exist, Nixon would have had to invent him." Nixon's staff was, then, ultimately irrelevant to the root cause of Watergate." Jayen466 00:14, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

• Book Title: The Nixon Presidency: Power and Politics in Turbulent Times. Contributors: Michael A. Genovese - author. Publisher: Greenwood Press. Place of Publication: Westport, CT. Publication Year: 1990. Page Number: 36:

  Harlow was a longtime student of the Congress and, along with his assistant William Timmons (who later succeeded Harlow), put together the Nixon legislative strategy. But they did so without much assistance or input from the President, who displayed a profound lack of interest in the Congress. The early ambitions of creating a Congress in the president's image quickly gave way to an attitude of neglect, then contempt. This was exacerbated by the ill will and power struggle between Harlow and Haldeman. It was a power struggle over who would have the ear of the president and what strategy the administration would employ toward Congress. In this competition Harlow was bound to lose, and the loss spelt doom for Nixon's congressional relations.

  — p. 36

• Jayen466 00:16, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

• Book Title: Spin Control: The White House Office of Communications and the Management of Presidential News. Contributors: John Anthony Maltese - author. Publisher: University of North Carolina Press. Place of Publication: Chapel Hill, NC. Publication Year: 1994. Page Number: 107:

  "In the final days of the administration, Clawson's team closely followed the televised hearings of the Rodino committee as it debated and voted on articles of impeachment against the president. Clawson set up a room in the EOB that contained three television sets (one for each of the major networks) and two radios. Insiders called it the "Impeachment Room," but the sign on the door read "Office of Communications, Research Division." 157 There the impeachment hearings were monitored by Larry Speakes, the speechwriter Ken Khachigian, and Jack McCahill, one of Nixon's lawyers. The three men drafted rejoinders to statements and charges that were made by members of the committee. "We had immediate responses to the president's enemies down to a science," Clawson later wrote. "The responses were immediately dictated to Bill Timmon's congressional liaison staff in a room near the Judiciary Committee hearing room, and those responses would be delivered to friends on the Rodino committee to be used in defense of the president. Sometimes they were used and sometimes they weren't." 158 Speakes says that the operation was designed as a trial run for handling the floor debate on impeachment in the House of Representatives. He adds, however, that the Rodino committee rules made life difficult: "A member of the committee could only for a few minutes at a time. So if a Democratic congressman made a point and we felt it was wrong, by the time we developed a response the had gone from the Democrat to a Republican, and back to another Democrat, and there was no chance to get our response in. That taught us that we would have to streamline our operation before they began impeachment proceedings on the House floor."

  — p. 107

• Jayen466 00:20, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

• His role in the Reagan transition is briefly touched upon here: Book Title: Presidential Transitions: From Politics to Practice. Contributors: John P. Burke - author. Publisher: Lynne Rienner. Place of Publication: Boulder, CO. Publication Year: 2000. Page Number: 98-100 ("Timmons's job was to gather information about departments and agencies."; heads of the various divisions, like Timmons, met daily) Jayen466 00:30, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Jayen, thanks for your help -- looks like some great resources. Hopefully Collect and Rtally3 will be able to focus on adding stuff now, instead of removing. Dicklyon (talk) 00:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

And hopefully Dick won't twist the information into something it's not when referencing it. I am all for including anything relevant, well sourced, well written, and unbiased -- as my additions have been. If edits are made in this manner there will be no attempts for removal. Rtally3 (talk) 21:12, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

• Pleasure, hope some of it may come in useful. Here is one more:
• Article Title: White House Staff Size: Explanations and Implications. Contributors: Charles E. Walcott - author, Karen M. Hult - author. Journal Title: Presidential Studies Quarterly. Volume: 29. Issue: 3. Publication Year: 1999. Page Number: 638. COPYRIGHT 1999 Center for the Study of the Presidency; COPYRIGHT 2002 Gale Group:

  Nixon began with a congressional relations office staffed and structured in a manner similar to that under previous presidents, going as far back as Eisenhower.(17) The unit grew between mid-1970 and early 1971, in part due to dissatisfaction with its performance. Original head Bryce Harlow (who had a similar job under Eisenhower) was replaced by William Timmons; then former House member Clark MacGregor was brought in to oversee Timmons. During this period, the congressional relations staff grew markedly larger than any of its predecessors.(18) This expansion coincided with many of Nixon's major legislative initiatives. The growth, driven mainly by Nixon's priorities, preceded that of other WHO units, notably public liaison. By the time of the 1972 election, however, the congressional staff had shrunk to eight professionals, only slightly larger than it had been in mid-1970 (or under LBJ).

• Jayen466 00:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Printed Comments

Maybe some of the following quotes from reliable sources can be incorporated into this biography.

In the opinion of several White House insiders, the youngest and least publicized of the President’s top assistants is probably the one most responsible for Nixon’s strategy, tactics and successes in dealing with a Democratic-controlled Congress. He is William Timmons, 39…. He’s already provided that he weathers high temperatures well.”

— Willard Edwards, The Chicago Tribune, November 17, 1970.

At a recent Washington party William E. Timmons was introduced by the hostess as ‘The man who gets President Nixon’s bills passed by Congress.’ Timmons smiled faintly and replied, ‘I’m glad I don’t get paid on a commission basis’.

— Bill Connelly, Richmond Times Dispatch, February 14, 1973.

William Timmons…an experienced Republican practitioner, did not agree with Ford’s advisors that Reagan would never dare challenge him…Timmons arranged two secret meetings between Reagan and Ford when the President was in Los Angeles the last weekend of the 1974 campaign…the relationship between the two became warmer.

— Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, The Reagan Revolution (NY: 1981), pages 44 & 45

William Timmons. Sometimes described as the ‘rain maker’ for his uncanny ability to change the weather on Capitol Hill…. A deft political thinker…Timmons was a loyalist who did all an honest man could for Nixon…. Timmons is one of those who have given lobbying an honorable name.

— Michael Kilian and Arnold Sawislak, Who Runs Washington (NY:1982), page 156.

While others scramble for publicity, the most powerful man at the Republican National Convention – other than President Reagan – is someone most Americans do not know. He never speaks from the convention podium, never appears on the network news shows and seldom gets his name in the newspaper. Yet he has been the mastermind behind Republican conventions since 1968, and virtually every big league politician – including former and future Presidents – call him a friend. He is William Timmons – a true behind-the-scenes political operative.

— Sara Fitz, Los Angeles Times, August 22, 1984, page 7.

Three years ago William Timmons was already one of the savviest, best-connected Republican lobbyists that American blue-chip companies could hire. Then President Regan made him a Wise Man.

— Wall Street Journal, July 14, 1986, page 1.

Timmons and I were ideologically in the same spectrum, and I liked him on a very personal basis, always trusted him. Bill’s a pro. He did a great job for Nixon, and under the toughest of circumstances.

— President Gerald Ford interview by James Cannon, Time and Chance (NY:1994), page 100.

In the third week of December 1974 thirty-three Members of the Senate and U.S. House of Representatives (15 Democrats) paid tribute to William Timmons on his retirement from the White House. A few selected comments: Rep. George Mahon, “Mr. Speaker, over the years it has been my privilege to be closely associated with Bill Timmons and I consider him on of the finest public servants I have encountered…he has served with great distinction.” Rep. William Jennings Bryan Dorn, “Mr. Speaker, Bill has been extremely effective in his position because he has always been fair. His loyalty to both President Nixon and President Ford was unquestioned; however, he has always been nonpartisan in his dealings with the Congress.” Rep. John Rhodes, “William E. Timmons, my good friend, who did such an exceptional job… As minority leader, I depended heavily on Bill’s assistance and counsel…. Mr. Broder singled out Bill Timmons as a prime example of those people worthy of the greatest respect and admiration for his work for the country.” Rep. Al Quie, “Bill Timmons….grasped the myriad issues with great facility and tried to help weave the fabric of national policy to benefit all of our citizens. His integrity has been unquestioned; his word has been his bond. His talents have been used to benefit government.” Rep. Robert Michel, “One departure in particular will leave me with a sense of loss…One reason he is so well liked here on Capitol Hill is that he is a very dedicated and hard-working individual. Another is that he is very savvy and perceptive… That he performed it so well is a tribute to his tact, his keen sense of duty, and his selflessness…He is a great American.” Rep. Marjorie Holt, “We owe him our gratitude for a job well done.” Rep. Earl F. Landgrebe, “Bill Timmons was always a man I could really count on. In my opinion he was a most unusual public servant – always pleasant, patient, dependable, and efficient.” Rep. Elford A. Cederberg, “In my 22 years in Congress and dealing with six different administrations, I can attest that the professionalism of the White House congressional office was never higher or finer than that of Bill Timmons’ group. He has proved to be a man of great dedication and integrity He has given his country the very best and for this, we are grateful.” Rep. Leslie C. Arends, “It is impossible to measure in any meaningful way Bill’s contribution to the hundreds of bills enacted by the Congress during these past 6 years, but it has been substantial… Thanks, Bill – for a job well done.” Senator Peter Dominick, “I send him sincere thanks for his many years of consistent and dedicated service to the office of the President-he served faithfully through dark as well as sunny times…Bill did yeoman service in keeping the President pleased and we on the Hill happy.” Senator Russell Long, “…I do not know of anyone who has worked harder, put in longer hours or been more helpful to us in guiding important legislation from conception to the law books.

— Congressional Record, December 16-19, 1974

Rtally3 (talk) 01:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Nice work, both of you. Rtally3's quotes need full citations, but there are definitely some useful ones there. It would be great to see you adding to the article rather than just trying to remove things. csloat (talk) 03:14, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

While adding some of this I managed to mess up the reference list. # 18 is a duplicate of 7 (Nixon and Lobbying sections reference the same source). Also, the Personal section is from #3. If someone could make these changes, or give me a push in right direction it would be appreciated. I see that dicklyon did above, but I couldn't seem to get it to work. I believe this should correct all the citation issues. Rtally3 (talk) 05:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't -- what I meant is that we need full citations (titles of articles, author, etc., and links where possible). Shouldn't be too much of a problem. csloat (talk) 16:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Proposal to merge here from Timmons & Company

I added merge tags to represent the idea we had discussed before. Since there are scattered snippets of info on both the guy and his company, and since some editors are suggesting removing stuff here on the basis of the company article existing, we need to decide which way to go. Merge or not? Please add a Support or Oppose bullet and some discussion. I haven't committed to merge yet, but am leaning that way, so I'll wait and see. Dicklyon (talk) 16:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support. csloat (talk) 21:35, 27 January 2009 (UTC) Comment -- the company seems notable only because Mr. Timmons is notable, and a lot of what he is notable for in recent years seems to be the actions of his company. Timmons was not just an employee; he is the founder and chairman. csloat (talk) 16:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose Not related directly to a biography. And a merge is an election article related edit IMHO. If the article on the firm is simply unable to be supported on its own as notable and being sourced, adding it here will not improve it, and would be deleterious to this article. Collect (talk) 09:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, do you then support deleting the T+C article completely, and not merging the content? Also, what does the election have to do anything? That accounts for some of the notability, for sure, but why is that a problem? Cheers, csloat (talk) 16:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support He started the company, he runs the company, would seem like a big part of his life to me, therefore relevant to a biographical survey of his life. Measles (talk) 17:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose We cited a source detailing all the people on the company that had "revolving-door" connections. Clearly it is not a one-man show. Other individuals within the company have made news, e.g. . Jayen466 17:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This may be a quibble, but your source shows that Tarplin made news only for leaving T+C and striking out on his own, which suggests that the notability of T+C per se is still very much tied to Timmons. csloat (talk) 17:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually you give a strong argument against merger. Thank you most kindly. Collect (talk) 19:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

More news about the company: Much of that is not about Timmons. The president and CEO is Harlow. Jayen466 19:49, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose per Csloat: Timmins doesn't appear to be that active at his namesake firm now, and isn't getting younger. --Pete Tillman (talk) 19:33, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

OK, there's clearly enough oppostion that we shouldn't try to do this; I withdraw my proposal. Then should we instead make the "lobbying" section here shorter, with a "main" link to the company article, and move most of the contents there? Dicklyon (talk) 20:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that would make sense. Things like the Time article that refer specifically to Timmons as an individual should stay here; company activities should move over there. Jayen466 20:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

disagree, he's a lobbyist, primarily what he's known for, he founded the company, the most notable thing about him is his lobbying, reducing this section makes no sense. Measles (talk) 21:17, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

We can leave a few balanced things about his lobbying, but keep the section short, compatible with a "main" link; for things like the F-18 mention where he is not specifically pointed out as the guy doing it, that might go best in the company article, and then we'd have less to fight about here. Dicklyon (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I have this odd opinion -- that biographies ought to deal with the person and his acts, not with the acts of others. Collect (talk) 02:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

How odd. I never would have guessed you had that opinion. Dicklyon (talk) 06:25, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I moved some stuff, put a main link, took out the merge tags, etc. Please comment. Dicklyon (talk) 04:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. I think the Timmons biography and the Timmons and Company site should not be merged. (1) They are two separate entries, one a person and the other is a corporation. (2) Timmons is a 78-year old “Emeritus” and probably has little to do currently with the firm. Another person is president and another one chairman of the board of directors. (3) Timmons & Company has a different history from the subject. Corporate officers have had backgrounds working for Democratic and Republican Members of Congress and Administrations. Worth noting is that one officer left to become President Reagan’s chief of staff, a former chairman left to become a principal member of President Clinton’s White House, another former chairman was confirmed as a U.S. Ambassador, and three alumni are now serving in senior capacities in President Obama’s White House. Others have become vice presidents of major corporations. In summary, the company is bigger than one person. Rtally3 (talk) 23:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Good, I already retracted that proposal and split up the material into the most relevant locations. Please do add all that other stuff, assuming you have sources. Dicklyon (talk) 06:25, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your effort and attention to detail on this. Both articles are shaping up nicely.

A minor point: in this sentence (Lobbying section):

"In 1979, Chrysler Corporation hired lobbyist Tommy Boggs to influence Democrats, and Timmons, "a man skilled in gaining Republican sympathy for corporate causes," in their work to secure government assistance in the form of loan guarantees."

-- the Boggs bit struck me as superfluous. I started to edit it out, but perhaps he fits into the story?? In which case a bit more explication is needed. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 19:36, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

If a cite is used, it should not be cherry picked. The cite an editor added had that material about Boggs in it, and since the big issue is politics, it would appear that it was germane. The part I demurred on was calling the loan guarantees a "bailout" as that has a distincet connotation right now which is not accurate. Collect (talk) 19:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The Boggs thing shows that how bipartisan lobbying works, with Timmons on the R side. The "bailout" terminology is what over 600 books call it. Dicklyon (talk) 07:09, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Printed Comments II

More printed comments from RS's that might have a place in this bio.

William Timmons, who had been in charge of House lobbying was promoted on February 4, 1970, to head the whole Hill Staff.

— Rowland Evans, Jr. and Robert D. Novak, Nixon in the White House (New York: Random House, 1971), pp. 116,117.

Bernstein had been told by a Democratic Party investigator that Baldwin had named two persons he thought had received them …and William E. Timmons, Assistant to the President for congressional relations and chief White House liaison to CRP for the Republican national convention…But the report was incorrect, and the decision to rush it into print was a mistake…Three men had been wronged. They had been unfairly accused on the front page of the Washington Post, the hometown newspaper of their families, neighbors, and friends…Timmons was dejected about the Post allegations, and his wife had wanted him to quit his job on the White House staff. Only after a long conversation with the President had he decided to stay on.

— Carl Bernstein and Bob Woodward, All the President’s Men (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1974), pp. 110,111.

Timmons and Burch felt that this morning’s Court ruling had been decisive; it was time for the President to pack it in….Now, argued Timmons, a moment of principle had come that would let the President resign with honor-this decision would undermine all future Presidents’ authority and thus, in defense of future Presidents, Richard Nixon should, at this moment, resign. (After lunch, Timmons would speak to General Haig in San Clemente and ask that this advice be brought, in his name, immediately to the President.)

— Theodore H. White, Breach of Faith – The Fall of Richard Nixon (New York: Atheneum Publishers, 1975, pp. 6,7.

At this juncture, Burch and Timmons were firm that, if not they, at least Buchanan be allowed to read the transcripts that were going to Judge Sirica. It was their right, they had an obligation to the President’s supporters on the Judiciary Committee and to the entire minority who intended to join in the defense. The President could not sabotage his supporters with any more nasty surprises.

— Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, The Final Days (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1976), p. 327.

Even before Morton formally took the title of campaign manager, he received an unexpected and very private feeler from the Reagan camp. With former Nixon White House aide William Timmons acting as intermediary, Morton met at Timmons’ downtown Washington office with John Sears on March 20, four days before the North Carolina primary.

— Jules Witcover, Marathon-The Pursuit of the Presidency 1972-1976 (New York: Viking Press, 1977), P. 413.

On October 3 the Post reported an allegation by ‘sources’ that Bill Timmons had been named as one of the people who had received reports from the Watergate wiretaps. The allegation was false, and Timmons denied it. It was still false when the Post repeated it three days later, this time on the front page under a big headline.

— Richard Nixon, The Memoirs of Richard Nixon (New York: Grosset & Dunlap, 1978), p. 708.

William Timmons, assistant to the President for Congressional relations… All three were accused in a Washington Post article in October 1972 of having regularly received reports on wiretapped conversations in the Democratic National Committee’s Watergate office, thus charging them directly of complicity in the breakin plot…It was totally incorrect, and the reporters who wrote it, Woodward and Bernstein, eventually conceded in their book that the men named had never seen any papers having to do with the wiretapping…Not a word of sincere apology, even then.

— Maurice H. Stans, The Terrors of Justice-The Untold Side of Watergate (New York: Everest House, 1978), pp. 64, 65.

Most of the people involved resigned voluntarily. Actually, the Nixon-appointed men and women who left the West Wing to return to private life were, with a few exceptions, people of high quality and personal integrity who had had nothing to do with Watergate…So were legislative liaison man Bill Timmons,…I was sorry to see them go because I knew they would be hard to replace.

— Gerald R. Ford, A Time To Heal-The Autobiography of Gerald R. Ford (New York: Harper & Row, 1979), p. 234.

Bill Timmons, as Assistant to the President, would stay on as long as he liked, with all his gang...I would take over retiring Bill Timmons’s suite, the second most spacious (after the President’s) in the West Wing..

— p. 281. Robert T. Hartman, Palace Politics-An Inside Account of the Ford Years (New York: McGraw-Hill, 1980).

In fact, the Reagan Convention operation is being run by the same man who ran Ford’s four years ago-William Timmons. Timmons, who is forty-nine, worked for Goldwater’s nomination and then for Nixon’s, handled congressional relations for the Nixon White House during Watergate, managed the alarmingly precise 1972 Republican Convention, and now has his own Washington lobbying firm.

— Elizabeth Drew, Portrait of an Election-The 1980 Presidential Campaign (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1981), p. 195.

...and Timmons, with his solid organization that he believed Carter could not match in place across the country was willing to ride with it. ‘The risks were so great,’ he said later, ‘because we were going to win .’ Timmons made a lengthy argument to Reagan and the inner circle. ‘I wanted to make sure the governor knew what was out there politically. The things I talked about were direct mail, saving our media money , we had a lot of in the can.’ Timmons reviewed the whole volunteer and field operation, which included distribution of five million pieces of literature and hundreds of thousands of yard signs, a ‘fantastic’ door-to-door canvass operation, and the placing of literally millions of phone calls to most Republican precincts in the country and some Democratic.

— Jack W. Germond and Jules Witcover, Blue Smoke & Mirrors-How Reagan Won & Why Carter Lost the Election of 1980 (New York: Viking Press, 1981), pp. 270, 271.

The first briefing group was headed by William Timmons, an old political pro, with long experience in the campaigns and administrations of Nixon and Ford. Separate teams were established for each major government department and agency. Most of the people on the teams, besides being smart and tough-minded, had a lot of government experience. They knew how Washington worked.

— Martin Anderson, Revolution (San Diego & New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1988), pp. 198,199.

Timmons was an old Young Republican leader whom I had known from my days as a reporter. He had worked on the Hill as well as in politics and campaigns. He was one of the class acts in the Nixon White House.

— Lyn Nofziger, NOFZIGER (Washington, DC: Regnery, 1992), p. 100.

Timmons had been one of the young recruits who worked with me on the Goldwater campaign, and he already signed up to work for Reagan as political director. I had a great deal of respect for him because he had beaten me in 1968 when I backed Reagan and he was Nixon’s floor manager. Timmons showed me what he was capable of doing that year, and I regarded him as one of the best convention men in the country.

— F. Clifton White with Jerome Tuccille, Politics as a Noble Calling – The Memoirs of F. Clifton White (Ottawa, IL: Jameson Books, 1994), p. 5.

Cooler heads in the Ford White House – like Cheney and Bill Timmons, Ford’s talented political aide – did not agree with the others around 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue about Reagan’s interest in running or his intelligence or his appeal.

— Craig Shirley, Reagan’s Revolution (Nashville, TN: Nelson Current, 2005), pp. 47, 48.

Rtally3 (talk) 20:10, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Relevance tags

User:Collect has restored 3 "irrel" tags. This would be a good place to discuss them individually. Each has something to do with Timmons or the historical context of stuff about Timmons, and it's not clear why he is questioning the relevance, except presumably to suggest removing the statements. Collect, please say here what each tag is about. Dicklyon (talk) 06:35, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

• First -- the insertion of the 1972 election wrt the Lennon memo. Discussion above had others agreeing that it was simply not relevant to this BLP.

• Second - the bit about the ACLU and FOIA which has absolutely no relevance to the BLP of Mr. Timmons.

• Third - the bit which basically says "an article accused him of being involved in Watergate. The article was wrong" In sum -- the damage is done by the accusation, and so the accusation is not healed by saying it was false. In a BLP, an accusation which has already been proven false does not belong. Consider a BLP of John Doe with a section "John Doe was accused of murder by the Washington Post. Later it turned out he did not commit the murder." Is that a fair sort of section in a BLP? I would trust not.

In each case, by the way, I have made the reasoning clear before. Collect (talk) 17:10, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications, Collect. I sort of agree on the third; that one was added by your buddy Rtally3 on Feb. 1, and you tagged it in this diff though your edit summary didn't say that's what it was about. Anyway, it's pretty clearly relevant, but there are reasons to leave it out anyway, so I'll let you work that out with Rtally3.

On the other two, it's about connecting Timmons's actions in receiving and sending these famous memos to what the memos were about and how they came to be known. The sentence in question has two tags for some reason:

• The Nixon administration's attempt to deport Lennon before the U.S. presidential election, 1972, was documented after these memos were discovered, after the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) took on the Wiener v FBI "Lennon files" case to challenge the problems in the implemenation of the Freedom of Information Act.

It's very clearly relevant that the memos were about "The Nixon administration's attempt to deport Lennon before the U.S. presidential election, 1972." Did you look at the source (or maybe watch the movie, even)? And it's clearly relevant how these memos came to light, in a precedent-setting lawsuit about the FOIA. Is one sentence too much to situate Timmon's involvement in this history?

If you'd like to assert that others support your position that these are irrelevant could you cite a diff, or at least a username that I can search for? Dicklyon (talk) 06:51, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

The deportation memo was almost a year before the election -- clearly the odds of a memo being within a year before or after an election are quite high, and the cite does NOT connect the election campaign to Thurmond's memo. Hence - irrelevant. And movies are NOT RS for WP purposes. The ACLU case was not about Timmons at all, hence is not relevant n a BLP about Timmons. It might be relevant in a separate article about the Lennon memos, but putting it in the BLP is COATRACK at best. And since I state the case, the tags should remain. Thanks! Collect (talk) 11:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Are you disputing the analysis of historians who said the deportation attempt was about Nixon's reelection efforts? Sounds like WP:OR on your part. Both of the cited sources talk about Lennon and his plans and the deportation attempt with respect to the upcoming 1972 election; apparently, the Nixonians didn't start soon enough to work on the problem... Obviously, the movie is not cited as a source, but maybe if you saw it you'd have a better working knowledge of the times. Dicklyon (talk) 23:13, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

I take it that you have failed to find anyone supporting your position on this, so I'll take these distracting old tags out until you do. Dicklyon (talk) 23:14, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Conversely - only you have removed tags for which a reasoning has been given. I note that you are the only person who argues that the election was relevant in the first place --- whle outside editors found it irrelevant. Thanks for abiding by WP guidelines in the tag retention. Collect (talk) 00:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Since only the two of us have commented directly on this issue of relevance of the memos and the election, a third opinion has been requested. 01:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I haven't been active on this page lately but I will add to the discussion to say I can't understand Collect's argument that the election isn't relevant; it's pretty clearly one of the big things that got the subject a mention in reliable sources. Vague disputes of established historians by wikipedia editors don't cut it -- see WP:OR. csloat (talk) 02:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi captain -- this is not a dispute about a source, it is about the RELEVANCE of the election to the Thurmond memo and Timmons. Collect (talk) 11:16, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

It is also now about abuse of cite -- the cite given shows the memo, and makes NONE of the other claims cited for it connecting anything with Timmons at all. Hence it is COATRACK, SYN and worse. Thanks for making me look at the cite given! Collect (talk) 11:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC).

I'm sorry you weren't able to find the relevant text in the cited source; I added the page numbers to help you. Dicklyon (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The book says nothing about Timmons -- which means citing it for unrelated material is still using the cite for irrelevant information. Sort of like citing Encarta -- on the basis that if it has an article on Timmons that therefore every article it has on everyoine is citable <g>. Collect (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're saying; both books clearly identify Timmons as receiver and sender of the subject memos. It's all their in black and white; the sentence you don't like just says what the memos were part of why they are historically important. Dicklyon (talk) 04:03, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

NONE of the cites links Timmons to attempting to deport Lennon -- they show him ANSWERING a memo. None make any allegations at all about Timmons in the matter. None connect the ACLU bit to Timmons at all, nor do any say the ACLU was specifically interested in the Timmons and Thurmons memos. In short - none of the cites adds an iota of evidence connecting Timmons to any political effort to deport Lennon at all. You are headed to WP:OR on this one for sure! Collect (talk) 12:18, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Third opinion

I notice that the third sentence being discussed seems to be deleted, therefore I'm assuming it needs no comment. As for the first two irrelevance tags, if there is no evidence Timmons was actively involved in the Lennon deportation case (as opposed to just reading a memo, as mentioned in the preceding sentence), then that part doesn't really belong in this BLP as it's just unneccesary detail. Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 14:35, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

It's unclear what you mean by "unnecessary detail", or what policy or guideline motivates the comment. How can the memos be understood without the sentence The Nixon administration's failed attempt to deport Lennon before the U.S. presidential election, 1972, campaign season was documented when these memos were discovered, after the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) took on the Wiener v FBI "Lennon files" case to challenge the problems in the implementation of the Freedom of Information Act. to situate them with respect to the Nixon white house, which is the topic of that section? Dicklyon (talk) 16:09, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I sort of agree with Bettia -- unless sources say that Timmons played an active role, say: pushing for Lennon's deportation, it is not worth mentioning here, if the memo was simply one of thousands of documents that passed through his office. Jayen466 17:28, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

As there is absolutely zero evidence connecting Timmons with the Lennon case other than the single memo cited, I consider your opinion valid. I would then also consider the fact that the memo was gotten by the ACLU is also "not worth mentioning" as well? Collect (talk) 17:32, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Based on what I've seen, yes. Not worth mentioning. If any RS make the point that Timmons played an active, noteworthy role in the Lennon deportation attempt, let editors present them now; otherwise I suggest we remove the para and be done with this issue. Jayen466 17:46, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course, the material in "Gimme some truth" (p. 2–5) might well be relevant and useful in our articles on the Nixon administration, but not here in this BLP. Jayen466 17:49, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

I have added quotes to the refs since Collect can't read. They make it very clear what was going on; I have not attributed anything to Timmons that's not supported in the refs; I haven't even asserted what some refs assert, that he was "central to" the effort to deport Lennon. Note that some refs don't bother to mention him by name, but talk of the White House and the administration when referring to these memos; since he was the adminstration/White House representative to whom Thurmond's memo was addressed, and the memo is shown in the same refs, the connection is plenty explicit there. Dicklyon (talk) 16:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

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