Misplaced Pages

1. that ID is not internally consistent;

   /Archive 14#ID on the O'Reilly Factor

2. that the article is too long;

   /Archive 13#notes

   /Archive 13#The Article Is Too Long

Introduction contains too much criticism

As someone who contributed to this article from December 2004 to January 2005, I was curious to see how the article has evolved since. It's great to see a lot more references, and a more structured layout, but I have to say that it appears somewhere along the line (possibly following the recent public attention on teaching ID in schools) an influx of anti-ID editors may have swayed the balance of this article somewhat. I don't see anything wrong with putting criticisms directly after arguments, in fact I think that's the way to go, but I do believe that the introduction offers too much criticism, stated in different ways. I think that one or two negative (i.e. opposing ID) sentences should suffice, and then let the interested reader decide by looking at the arguments that follow. Instead, we currently have around 9-10 of the 12 (only a rough count!) sentences in the introduction arguing for the negative. When I was working on the article, it was more like 3 or 4 of 10. I think some of the comments on the Featured Article page from people who are maybe less familiar with the topic tend to convey this same impression. Well I thought I'd raise it here, before doing anything too drastic with the introduction. --Brendanfox 11:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I think you've missed the point- the content in question is not "criticism" that "opposes ID," but rather descriptions of the responses of those who ID confronts or challenges, namely the scientific community.

According to the guidelines, a proper intro should define the topic and mention the most important points. The format this article uses for doing this is to state the claims made by ID proponents, followed by a summary of fact or the response of the scientific community, media, etc. As for why we include the responses of the scientific community at the level we do, the NPOV policy on covering pseudoscience has been our guide: "the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." That's what this article does now.

As for how much article real estate, number of sentences, etc., are dedicated to the responses of the scientific community, keep in mind that ID challenges the very way science is conducted in a very simple criticism of naturalism. Any response of the scientific communtity justifying it's use of naturalism is going to have to be explanatory, hence long, by necessity.

Please keep in mind WP:FAITH before implying that biased editors have stilted the article again. FeloniousMonk 15:57, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

It is important that this article use the harshest possible terms when criticizing the ID movement and the concepts they promote -- especially in the introduction, because you never get a second chance at a first impression. Further, describing ID concepts with clarity is simply not important because ID proponents are disingenuous ideologues who claim to be doing science, and they need to be exposed, not understood. And if you keep implying that the editors are biased, you could be blocked from contributing to Misplaced Pages. I'm sorry, Brendanfox, you're just going to have to accept it.--Gandalf2000 19:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

;-) Welcome back. (Take a look at the discussions above to get up to speed.) You raise very good points, and I hope we can find some consensus on those improvements, which definitely should not be discarded out-of-hand. Do you care to propose alternative introductory paragraphs?

I recently proposed another approach, simply to cut-and-paste the "Intelligent design debate" and "Intelligent Design concepts" sections right after the first sentence, and then proceed with further edits.--Gandalf2000 19:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Haha, thanks for your response guys. One thing I've got to pick you up on Monk, is in the reason you offered for the relatively high proportion of "descriptions of the responses of those who ID confronts or challenges" (should we abbreviate this to DOTROTWIDCOC or can I just say 'negative') which was essentially that naturalism takes longer to explain than ID. Whilst this may explain what happens throughout the article, I believe the problem with the intro is in it's inability to concisely summarise the negative arguments. Unfortunately, it's not really practical for us to go much further on this point, so I think the best way would be for me to re-write some of the introduction, and then respond to any criticisms that anyone would offer. --Brendanfox 11:47, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I will restate one of my criticisms of the opening paragraph here again, as my last statement of it was archived. The second line of the article is tendentious and provokes suspicion in the reader towards ID without warrant. The structure of this sentence: "Though publicly Intelligent Design advocates state....in statements to their constituents and supporters, nearly all state..." is misleading. First, there is no distinction between "public" ID and ID "for constituents and supporters." Felonius has repsonded to an earlier statement of my criticism with copius documentation of very public statements by members of The Discovery Institute regarding their Christian agenda, which I think goes a long way towards making my point -- it's all public.

But in addition, the structure of this sentence creates a false logical tension, between the Discovery Institute's public cultural agenda, which is blatantly and specifically Christian, and Dembski's claim that Design Inferences are philosophically agnostic, i.e., incapable of making predications of the designer. While many may object to the cultural agenda, there is really no controversy over what conclusions one can reach from a hypothetical successful design inference -- that is to say, you can't get Christianity from ID proper, you can only make predications of the natural object in question. This claim to agnosticism is based on the philosophical efficacy of The Design Inference, as articlated in the Cambridge Press book of the same name. The paragraph -- not to mention the second sentence of the article should be re-written to accurately describe the scope and nature of ID's claim to agnosticism. SanchoPanza 21:32, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I hope your return here indicates that you intend to respect the spirit and rules of Misplaced Pages more so than your last visit.

Before anyone here wastes any time responding to criticisms or challenges, answer this question: What evidence would it take to prove you're wrong? I simply will no longer take seriously or reply to challenges that do not address this question. I have found this to be a great general-purpose cut-through-the-crap question to determine whether somebody is interested in seriously contributing to a factual and complete article or just advancing a particular POV. Note, by the way, that I am assuming the burden of proof here - all you have to do is commit to a criterion for substantiating your claim. It's easy to criticize long-term contributors here for being "closed-minded" and unwilling to compromise. Are you open-minded enough to consider whether your ideas might be wrong? FeloniousMonk 22:24, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Your response is a non sequitur. I've made criticisms about the specific language of the second sentence of the article. The "criterion" for rejecting the argument should be apparent from what I wrote: simply address the questions posed. But redirecting the discussion into questions of method or trying to establish ad hoc "criterion" for accepting or rejecting an argument isn't helpful. If your complaint is that I haven't been clear enough for you to engage my criticism directly, the best response is to ask for a clarification, if you're genuinely interested in discussing the point and not merely dealing in pointless pedantry. I believe I've been as specific and direct as anyone needs to be, so please address the substance of my remarks. SanchoPanza 21:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I will restate one more time for clarification: the fact that the Discovery Institute and its fellows have a Christian cultural agenda does not contradict William Dembski's claim that Design Inferences cannot make predications of the designer. The second sentence of the article should not be structured so as to infer that there is a contradiction, thereby creating the suspicion in the reader that ID proponents are disengenuous on this point. SanchoPanza 21:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Great question. In fact, that is the reason I am here. I have been open to being proven wrong for over 20 years, when I made an explicit and permanent decision that if my world view was demonstrated to be wrong, I would abandon it, specifically considering the cost would be alienation from family, friends, and heritage. Since then, I have been fearless in exploring truth claims. This has led me to abandon some of my beliefs and embrace others more firmly, as evidence warrants.

I have learned to respect rational sources, and understand that there is power in completing ideas. I respect evolution as a theory and understand its power in explaining biological phenomenae. I respect intelligent design concepts, from which potentially powerful concepts and lines of research are emerging. FeloniousMonk, if you wish to really produce a good article, demonstrate that you understand what is compelling about intelligent design -- from a scientific perspective -- and not just the philosophical, cultural, and religious issues. If you do not demonstrate this understanding, I cannot respect your criticism, because it comes across as either straw-man debate tactics or mean-spiritedness. I'm certain you don't want to come across this way.

The truth is, as a theist, my philosophical presuppositions align with intelligent design. Nevertheless, I have studied the best philosophical arguments I can find that challenge these presuppositions, with an open-mindedness and the best logical clarity I can muster. I am specifically focusing on the topic of intelligent design, because the issues are where science and philosophy intersect, and my beliefs are directly and meaningfully challenged. In this process, I can decide to let the evidence speak for itself and lead where it will. With that focus, I want to move past the debate and understand the evidence for -- and against -- intelligent design. (Note: I said evidence, not argument.) Part of that process is engaging with people who demonstrate that they truly understand the topic -- that is, well enough to make the strongest possible case on behalf of intelligent design, yet still disagree. And I want to help produce an article that helps others do the same.--Gandalf2000 03:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

That's quite an essay. I actually intended the question for SanchoPanza, but thanks for responding.

As far claiming "I need to demonstrate that I understand what's compelling about intelligent design before I can produce a good article", whatever that means, I think you're way off the mark as to Misplaced Pages's goals. There is no litmus test here. No one requires that you demonstrate a knowledge of science in mounting your defense of ID, which is in essence an attack on science. In the free marketplace of knowledge and ideas that is Misplaced Pages, there is no substitute for valid reasoning and sound arguments. But to make it clear to you, I'm not here to argue for or against ID. Nor am I here to write an article sympathetic to ID or an article critical of ID. I'm here to write a factual and complete ID article. And I'll put it plainly that anyone who is here for any other reason is mistaken as to what Misplaced Pages is about and will need to get realign their goals with those of the project's if they ever intend to do anything more than criticize others on talk pages. FeloniousMonk 04:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Fascinating topic. Suggest redirect to Ghost Dance.

The "Disputed" template

Wade A. Tisthammer, (128.101.39.45 (talk · contribs)128.101.39.12 (talk · contribs)70.94.234.224 (talk · contribs), is again misusing the Disputed template. His objections were discussed here previously ad nauseum He discussed his objections here previously ad nauseum, and he failed to understand that the article is reporting facts, not stating facts. It is not saying that the objections to defining ID as science are fact. It is saying that these are commonly made objections to defining ID as science. Wade can find the justification for presenting responses to ID's claim that it's science is here: NPOV policy on covering pseudoscience. FeloniousMonk 22:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Wade, 128.101.39.45 (talk · contribs), changing to a sectDisputed template does not change the fact that the template is not warranted. Either prove that the criticisms listed in the section are not commonly made or abide by the policies and knock it off. FeloniousMonk 23:00, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

• Please note the three revert rule - "an editor must not perform more than three reversions on a single Misplaced Pages article within 24 hours of their first reversion."--A Y Arktos (Talk) 23:07, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

The three revert rule applies to Sock puppets and duplicate identities of the same editor. At User_talk:128.101.39.45#About_your_actions_at_Intelligent_design, User:Tisthammerw is the new login of 128.101.39.45 who has already reverted three times.--A Y Arktos (Talk) 23:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I am not misusing the disputed template; the facts reported really are disputed! I even provided a specific non-creationist example: Del Ratzsch, author of The Battle of Beginnings: Why Neither Side is Winning the Creation-Evolution Debate. Ratzsch's specialty is the philosophy of science and is thus reasonably authoritative. I explained why the facts reported are flawed in archive 18. Contrary to FeloniousMonk's claims, my objections were not discussed ad nauseum; I only had one reply! FelenoniusMonk, please get your facts straight before you criticize me again. The article wasn't just "reporting facts" it was stating the flawed claims as facts. Note especially the part of, “In light of its failure to adhere to these standards...” after describing how intelligent design “fails” the criteria. And even if the article does simply represent the objections without claiming they’re valid, a rebuttal section should be given if only because the objections badly mischaracterize both science and the theory it’s criticizing. This is not to say it is wrong to criticize ID in the wikipedia entry, only that one should get the basic facts straight before doing so. Wade A. Tisthammer 23:37, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Correction, Wade A. Tisthammer's point was not "discussed here previously ad nauseum" as I previously stated. What I meant was that "He discussed his objections here previously ad nauseum." When point raised is not responded to by the community, that generally indicates that there it is not found to be compelling enough to either rebuff or affirm. That was the case with Wade A. Tisthammer previously raising this issue. Accepting that is called abiding by consensus.

Wade, you need to stop the mindless reverting and abide by consensus if you want to participate here. If there's not much interest or support for a point you raise several times, that should be an indication to you that perhaps it's something you need to rethink. FeloniousMonk 00:04, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

You yourself did not stop the mindless reverting, failing to give any reason why my corrections I put forth regarding the philosophy of science were wrong. I did stop the reverts as soon as I was made aware of the three-revert rule. "He discussed his objections here previously ad nauseum" is still a little unclear. I was thorough about my objection (and hence my analysis was somewhat long), is that what you're saying? And on what grounds did you (or anyone else, if there is anyone else) not find my criticisms in archive 18 compelling? You yourself have failed to give any reason why. Note: the reason why I did the reverts is that I believe misrepresenting science (and ID) should not be done in a wikipedia article.

Well, that's what's called clean-up around here. When a responsible wikipedian finds an unjustified template slapped on an article, it's their responsibility to take it down.

On your earlier specific points:

That the criteria for demarcation is disputed by Ratzsch and Ruse, as I've replied on your talk page, is not sufficient justification for claiming the scientific method is disputed wholesale here. Neither speak for the scientific community at large. That there are dissenting voices over demarcation from either side is not the point. The point is that science as it is practiced employs these criteria; they are widely accepted within the community. Some moreso than others, but all are. The scientific community's objections to defining ID as science span the range of the list in the article. In fact, there are other objections often made that were not included as they were fringe in one way or another.

Wade's point that article in stating "In light of its failure to adhere to these standards..." makes a declarative statement may hold more water, but that's easily fixed with a few keystrokes, not a disputed template. So why choose the template over a gramatical fix Wade? FeloniousMonk 00:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I've tweaked the sentence to read: "Critics content that in light of its failure to adhere to these standards, Intelligent Design can not be said to follow the scientific method." Wasn't that much easier than the last 2 hours you spent on the template? FeloniousMonk 00:38, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Wade and F. Monk, please stop this bickering. I don't want to have to start deleting personal remarks. Uncle Ed 20:43, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

“That the criteria for demarcation is disputed by Ratzsch and Ruse”

Okay, it seems you didn’t quite catch what I said about Ruse. Let’s recap what I said:

• "Michael Ruse made some similar criteria in one creationism court case (e.g. falsifiability and tentativeness) and that has been criticized by even anti-creationists."

Ruse put forth similar criteria, and even non-creationists have criticized such criteria. Ratzsch is not a creationist, neither are the many other people who criticize such claims. Hence my claim that "the section adequately represents the scientific community" is questionable in light of the criticisms from various non-creationist sources who convincingly refute these mistaken beliefs regarding the philosophy of science (and sometimes creationism). For another reference besides Ratzsch, see "But is it Science?" which includes a couple of anticreationist sources criticizing some of the criteria such as the mistake of attacking the adherent rather than the doctrine (ad hominem attacks) including matters of changeability, tentativeness and falsifiability. (See chapters 22 and 24 by Larry Laudan, a prominent philosopher of science; see also chapter 25 pp. 374-382). My claim is that "science as it is practiced employs these criteria" is false and I gave reasons why (reasons you have largely ignored). That is the reason I chose the template, because those criteria do not accurately portray science (also, I assumed that including rebuttals in the article would be quickly deleted, so pointing out that this section was factually disputed seemed to be the best I could hope for). You yourself have provided no evidence that this adequately represented the entire community, and such a claim seems unlikely given the misrepresentation of science I have seen here. If you want to attack intelligent design, go ahead. But surely it can be done without misrepresenting science in a wikipedia article.

Archive 18

I apologize for the inconvience as a result of the premature archiving, it was carried out by another editor who is overly concerned about the 32k limitation. I was going to revert everything back but decided against it given things are relatively quiet here; and referencing /Archive 18 seems to be going smoothly. - RoyBoy 00:28, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Vatican says "pay attention to science"

This article is interesting and relevant.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051104/ap_on_sc/vatican_science Synaptidude 01:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

This is what's so fascinating to me about the ID proponents. From one of Dembski's latest published statements, clarifying the difference between ID and creationism:

Design theorists argue that the evidence of biology confirms a design inference. But even if that confirmation were eventually overturned by new evidence, such a failure would constitute a failure of intelligent design as a scientific theory....

They are engaging science on scientific terms, and explicitly accepting the possibility of being proven wrong on those terms. It's refreshing to see numerous perspectives trying hard not to set up religion and science as adversarial.--Gandalf2000 04:22, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

What kind of evidence could overturn ID? --JPotter 07:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, good question. Of course my guess is complete opinion, but here it is: "usefulness". The reason evolution is so popular is that it's useful in describing biological phenomenae, even when tangible evidence is lacking. (But evolution only goes so far, just like Newtonian physics. At some point, quantum physics and relativity kick in, being more useful.) If ID adds value and proves to be truly useful to science, then it will survive and thrive. Ultimately, if evidence shows it's not useful in describing what it claims to describe, then it fades. (Of course, things that are true are most useful. That's why geocentrism is not useful except in a banal phenomenological sense.)--Gandalf2000 08:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Good point. But I think one of the problems is that a lot of ID proponents are trying to do an end run around the peer review system. Instead they are appealing directly to the non-scientific community and convince them to teach it in science class. The general public is not likely to find either explanation more "useful" - other than perhaps in reinforcing their own world views. --Varith 17:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

if you wish to really produce a good article, demonstrate that you understand what is compelling about intelligent design -- from a scientific perspective -- saith Gandalf2000.

Gandalf2000, I have gone toe-to-toe with you before on your understanding of cosmology when you made claims about intelligent design informing it. What I was able to understand was that you weren't a scientist in the sense that you don't consider that your line of work. Why do you think it possible, then, that you understand the scientific perspective well enough to demand that there is something "compelling about intelligent design -- from a scientific perspective"? Is this a statement that you believe teleology isn't removed from science? Or is it representative of a lack of scientific perspective on your part? Let us know. Joshuaschroeder 08:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Most scientific topics, even complex ones, have aspects that can be understood by anyone with a decent education and interest. (Like my example of the limitations of Newtonian physics -- it just makes sense, when you study it.) So as I study the ID issues, I'm finding that the most prominent ID proponents really make the case from a scientific perspective, and have laid out some very interesting, innovative paths for research. It's not so one-dimensional as this article portrays; there's some real depth there.

I'm sure you agree that the most fascinating research is what captures the imagination and provides fresh understanding; of course, that's a road fraught with peril. Part of me really wonders whether these guys will pull it off and produce something widely recognized as insightful, with predictive and categorical usefulness that truly expands knowledge, not just filling in a few "gaps". From a scientific perspective, I'm not convinced yet, but I believe the several ID propositions to be well-thought, supported by non-trivial evidence, and at least worth serious consideration.--Gandalf2000 09:45, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I wasn't aware of any gaps ID has actually filled, specifically. Certainly, a higher power can be used to explain anything, but what specific gaps does ID supposedly address?

Apart from the general concept that ID is not limited by naturalism, and thus not limited to natural explanations for a possibly supernatural event, I'm not aware of any specific gaps that ID has filled. Obviously, the concept of irreducible complexity does not address specific issues. So what gaps does ID actually fill?

If ID wants to be taken seriously, it should probably provide some specific claims, and should be ready to defend them, or denounce them should they be proven false. In my view, just as a lot of myths are perpetuated through word of mouth and though ignorance, many people who support ID are unaware of the scientific rebutals to their claims. Shouldn't ID try to prevent people from using the wrong arguments in its defense? -- Ec5618 13:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

You point out one significant issue, but that's just part of the picture. Take a look at the source I just cited, specifically Appendix 4: Fifteen Intelligent Design Research Themes, which demonstrates lines of inquiry that are not just polemic. I think those topics are fascinating.--Gandalf2000 16:50, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Dembski points out general methods of pattern detection being employed in other fields. He does not show how his methods (the "explanatory filter"/specific complexity) or any ID "method" being used in scientific endeavors. That's because they aren't.

Also, I think EC's point was that there is still nothing from ID proponents, like a hypothesis, that offers anything that can be meaningfully tested. So Dembski's argument for his side may be "fascinating" for some, they do not address the point EC raised. Also, Dembski has an established history of relying on hyperbole and other forms of exaggeration to make his points. Knowledgeable, objective readers take his claims with a grain of salt. FeloniousMonk 17:03, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

That was indeed my point. Although the text suggests that ID might have practical applications, for example, in proving that we have free will (which is obviously an emotional appeal), I see nothing that might actually practically applied. Yes, a tricorder that could detect dangerous pathogens would be nice, but how should be begin building one? If ID could do that, I'd agree it has valididy. Until then, its just a misunderstood myth. -- Ec5618 17:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Wow, I love this one:

10. Design of the Environment and Ecological Fine-Tuning. The idea that ecosystems are fine-tuned to support a harmonious balance of plant and animal life is old. How does this balance come about?

"Old" is one way of phrasing this, outdated is another. The Clementsian view of the ecosystem was pretty much abandoned in the 1950s. Guettarda 18:09, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Ken Wilber

Those ID proponents who are widely seen as the leaders of the movement is well established: Behe, Johnson, Dembski, Meyers, Wells are all seen as the leaders of the movement. Wilber? No. In no measurable way does Wilber influence the policies and strategies of the movement, regardless of how many books he's published. Nor is he a fellow of the Discovery Institute, the Center for Science and Culture, or International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (ISCID).

Since the Discovery Institute acts a clearinghouse for all things ID, if Wilber is a leading proponent of ID, he and his should feature prominently there. But searches of the Discovery Institute's databases yield zero hits for Wilber:

Hence, it cannot be said Wilber is a leading ID proponent. In light of this fact, his mention in the paragraph as an exception to the rule is spurious, it needs to be removed. FeloniousMonk 17:48, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The most important factor here is your agenda that ID be falsely painted as an exclusively evangelical Christian phenomenon. — goethean ॐ 17:53, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk is quite correct in his statement: Wilber is not regarded as a leader within the Intelligent Design movement. Nevertheless, perhaps someone should reword that line. 'is not recognised' perhaps? 'Not part of the ID movement'? 'Is not mentioned on the websites of .. ' I'm stumped.

goethean, since when is ID not exclusively religious? A single example of a man who does not support evolution proves nothing. In fact, according to the article of Ken Wilber, he does no more than disagree with evolution, but does not agree with ID either. Instead. he seems to favour an alternative, spiritual worldview. In fact, this should probably be changed in the article. -- Ec5618 18:15, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, because one doesn't accept evolution by natural selection as the best explanation for the biodiversity of life on Earth, doesn't make him an IDist. --JPotter 19:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I'll temporarily post his statement on evolution on a user subpage. In addition to this he has criticized Carwinism in several of his books.

since when is ID not exclusively religious?

I didn't say that it wasn't exclusively religious. I'm saying that it's not exclusively Christian. The paragraph currently strongly implies the opposite. But Wilber is not a theist of the traditional Western variety. He's a mystic who accepts the validity of science.

Wilber is not regarded as a leader within the Intelligent Design movement.

The paragraph is entitled "Religion and leading Intelligent Design proponents", and gives the impression that all of the ID proponents are evangelical Protestants. Wilber is an obvious counter-example. — goethean ॐ 19:19, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Goethean, Monk is right: the 5 men he named are leaders; Wilber is not.

And ID is primarily associated with religious folks, to be sure. I'm not "outing" Wells to say so. I've met him, and he's very pro-religion. (He's also very hard to talk to - he wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise in an after-lecture discussion period at MIT, even though I was one of only TWO people who stayed after the lecture!) Uncle Ed 20:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Intro as critique

Did you realize that 85% of introduction to I.D. is actually a critique of it? You guys aren't even letting the proponents make their case, before you tell the readers that ID is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Shouldn't the article give some of the arguments which ID advocates advance, before rebutting the arguments? Is there some danger that if we don't give the reader 310 words of warnings and cautions that they might buy into this nonsense and get brainwashed by the introduction?

I don't care what percent of the article is rebuttal. In fact, the higher the proportion of anti-ID to pro-ID the stronger ID's case looks to me: no one wastes time addressing weak arguments.

But at least let the other side go first, eh? I don't mind shooting fish in a barrel, don't don't machine gun the poor things before they get a chance to swim one lap around the barrel. Uncle Ed 20:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Hold on. No-one wastes time addressing weak arguments? Please, I've spend half a minute on this post already. And it seems to be very easy to find good criticism of ID, and very hard impossible to find any practical application of ID, let alone any proof of any actual claims. Is there even an ID article out there that doesn't try to appeal to incredulity?

So excuse the intro, if any claim put forward by IDists can be shot down. Find an ID claim that cannot so easily be shot down, and put it in the intro (after discussion, obviously).-- Ec5618 20:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

LOL, touche! Thanks for spending time on the weak arguments. Uncle Ed 21:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

As I've said before above about how much of the article's real estate, number of sentences, location etc., dedicated to the responses of the scientific community:

1. ID challenges the very way science is conducted in a very simple criticism of naturalism. Any response of the scientific communtity justifying it's use of naturalism is going to have to be explanatory, hence long, by necessity.
2. ID is considered pseudoscience, so the NPOV policy on covering pseudoscience guides us: "the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly."
3. ID offers no actual science to be tested or disputed, hence, in the abscence of actual science, what is left in ID for those it challenges to address are the statements and claims of it's proponents.
4. The encyclopedic topic of ID is not just what ID proponents claim, but also the response of those it challenges and those who are its targets. The article covers this in depth.

I've reverted your hack job for two reasons, 1) You didn't bother to seek consensus, 2) you didn't even both to update and synch the footnotes (and anyone who thinks that I'll keep doing this for them is mistaken). Make your case first, Ed. FeloniousMonk 23:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

At this point the first paragraph contains 71 words of description, 173 of criticism. Of the 71 words of criticism, 31 of those are setting up the criticism in the second paragraph, by way of stating the redundant: "Adherents of Intelligent Design have claimed that it stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life and the origin of the universe." It is to be assumed that IDer's believe ID to be a better explanation than the predominant view. This is implicit in the first sentence.

In my opinion the whole first paragraph needs a rewrite with more substantive description of ID, and the 171 words of criticism need to be moved to the "criticism" section, or labelled as such in the intro. In any case a more thorough intro to ID as such is needed. SanchoPanza 22:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

As you've proved, it's much easier to criticize something than it is to defend. What you propose is a one-sided POV, incomplete, description of ID. Again, as an encyclopedic topic, ID is not just what proponents say. FeloniousMonk 23:11, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the criticisms are essential to understanding ID. But let's respect the reader enough to stay focussed for more than one sentence at a time. It's ok to give two or three paragraphs of description without insinuating the criticism after every point. It's distracting to the reader, and makes them distrust the ethos of the article. I'm not arguing for a one-sided article. Just a patient, even-handed one. SanchoPanza 23:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Intelligent Design (sometimes abbreviated ID) is the controversial assertion that certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent, as opposed to an unguided process such as natural selection.Adherents of Intelligent Design have claimed that it stands on equal footing with, or is superior to, current scientific theories regarding the origin of life and the origin of the universe. As has been argued before in the context of the creation-evolution controversy, proponents of Intelligent Design make the claim that there is a systemic bias within the scientific community against proponents' ideas and research based on the naturalistic assumption that science can only make reference to natural causes.

That's pretty flimsy. In 350 words, we learn this about ID:

• ID thinks there are objects in nature that cannot be explained by purely natural processes.
• ID thinks ID is a better explanation than the predominant view. (redundant -- see the first point)
• ID thinks there is a bias against it in the scientific community. (interesting, but is this more essential than, say, a description of the Explanatory Filter, or reference to the controversies on the school boards?)

All true, but hardly the salient essential points for a good intro to the subject. More substance is needed. SanchoPanza 23:23, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

From the guidelines on how to write a great_article:

• "Start your article with a concise paragraph defining the topic at hand and mentioning the most important points. The reader should be able to get a good overview by only reading this first paragraph." We already do this.
• "If different people have different opinions about your topic, characterize that debate from the Neutral point of view. The article follows the NPOV policy for writing about pseudoscience found at Neutral point of_view: Pseudoscience.

If we were to follow the How to... guidelines with those of Neutral point of_view: Pseudoscience. to the letter, the intro paragraph is actually deficient in that it does not cover the POV of the scientific community.

Explanatory Filter, references to the controversies are details to ID, not essential to understanding it. The guidelines state that a definition and the important points belong in intros, not details. FeloniousMonk 23:41, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to get a head count. How many regular editors here have adopted WP:NPOV#Pseudoscience as the operating principle for editing this article? SanchoPanza 23:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd just like to know when you plan on adopting [[WP:NPOV? Or any policy here for that matter. Stop raising red herrings and wasting our time. Everyone who edits Misplaced Pages tacitly accepts the WP:NPOV policy or has no expectation of their contributions surviving long. Those contributing to articles on pseudoscience are no exception. If there is a NPOV policy on covering pseudoscientific topics, and the is, then those who ignore it do so at their own risk. FeloniousMonk 00:06, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Whatever happened to WP:FAITH, Felonius? This is not a red herring. Clearly, there are thousands of reasonable folks of good faith, scientists included, who would say that adopting WP:NPOV#Pseudoscience as a matter of principle commits WP to one side of controversy that is far from settled. SanchoPanza 00:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Bunk. Read the policy. The only issue as to when the policy applies is whether a topic is considered pseudoscience by the scientific community, which it is. That is all. This particularly specious objection, taken with your history of pushing a pro-ID agenda, means your intent is transparent. As a fig leaf, WP:FAITH can only be stretched to cover so much before... well, you know. FeloniousMonk 00:39, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

What is this article about?

I still can't tell what this article is about. This is an encyclopedia, so we don't want to have personal essays on "Intelligent design," which is what it looks like to me when defined the way it is in the article. The introduction says "Intelligent Design (sometimes abbreviated ID) is the controversial assertion that certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent, as opposed to an unguided process such as natural selection." Therefore, according to the article, intelligent design is arguably no different from a Teleological argument. Clearly there is more to it than that. You cannot, (as I learned) say it is simply Dembski's assertion, because he is not the only one who developed it. What about "Intelligent design is term used to describe a particular system of beliefs and theory based on a teleological argument?"--Ben 22:24, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Or maybe "Intelligent design is term used to describe a particular system of beliefs and theory based on teleological argument and information theory."

(note that just saying "Intelligent design is about Intelligent design" is obviously a circular definition.)--Ben 00:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to change it to say the above if there aren't any objections. --Ben 01:38, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

You know there are. -- Ec5618 01:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed he does. He's been trying to justify a POV fork for a while now FeloniousMonk 01:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Refusal to discuss. Misintrepretation. Bad faith. WP:FAITH. --Ben 02:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

It's not a lack of discussion that is the problem here. You took nearly a 25% of this page the other day with your claims and personal attacks and your claims and arguments didn't generate much interest then or now. The real problem here is your refusal to accept consensus. Please do not start with the personal attacks and disruptions again. FeloniousMonk 02:32, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

That's great. --Ben 06:21, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

the creationism argument is all like

I'm wet. I must've been shot by a water gun. sorta. Likwid Swzzl 22:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Shortening intro

The introduction is unnessesarily long. I've moved a few bit to deeper in the article. The paragraph with the US NAS for example, contained:

"This criticism is regarded by advocates of Intelligent Design as a natural consequence of philosophical naturalism which precludes by definition the possibility of supernatural causes as rational scientific explanations. As has been argued before in the context of the creation-evolution controversy, proponents of Intelligent Design make the claim that there is a systemic bias within the scientific community against proponents' ideas and research based on the naturalistic assumption that science can only make reference to natural causes."

I've removed "As has been argued before in the context of the creation-evolution controversy" as the creation-evolution controversy is not really the issue, not in the intro. I've also removed the first sentence of this quote, as it makes basically the same point as the last sentence.

I moved:

"Though Intelligent Design advocates collectively state that their focus is on detecting evidence of design in nature without regard to who or what the designer might be, the leading proponents have made statements to their supporters that they believe the designer to be the Christian God, to the exclusion of all other religions, and thus there exists a well established link to Genesis and Creationism."

to Intelligent design#Hypotheses about the designer or designers, where it seems to fit quite well. The point about religeous ID proponents should be made in the article more fully.

I still feel the intro could, and should, be more pithy. As it stands, it explains too much, without refering to the article itself, which is what it should do. The table of contents, just below, should be beckoning the reading to read specific sections he or she is interested in or has questions about. -- Ec5618 23:36, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

There's one issue that kills your intro: You only provide one side of ID, that of its proponents. Read the guidelines on how to write a great_article:

• "Start your article with a concise paragraph defining the topic at hand and mentioning the most important points. The reader should be able to get a good overview by only reading this first paragraph." We already do this.
• "If different people have different opinions about your topic, characterize that debate from the Neutral point of view. The article follows the NPOV policy for writing about pseudoscience found at Neutral point of_view: Pseudoscience.

If we were to follow the How to... guidelines with those of Neutral point of_view: Pseudoscience to the letter, your intro paragraph is actually deficient in that it only covers the POV of ID proponents and not the scientific community's response to ID. Either fix it, or I'll revert it.

Also, you've messed up the ordering of the footnotes again. I've fixed this once today already. Either fix it, or I'll revert it. FeloniousMonk 23:49, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I hate to disagree, but as the second paragraph mentions the very reasonable viewpoint of critics (God of the gaps), and as the last paragraph still contains plenty of criticism (National Academy of Sciences, polemic), I feel the intro is still rather balanced. All I did to the last paragraph was make it more consise, while keeping its main points intact.

And do you really feel that the fact that most ID proponents are religious is a major criticism of ID? It certainly doesn't speak for the ID movement, but it is a minor criticism of ID as a concept.

I made some minor changes as well. Removed simply from "simply creationist pseudoscience". All in all, I feel my version is more NPOV, on all fronts.

I've not had a great deal of experience with footnotes, and I wasn't aware of doing anything to them. Nonetheless, I'll try to see what I can do. -- Ec5618 00:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, EC, I'll go for that. But fix those damn footnotes! ;-) FeloniousMonk 00:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Thank you EC for reording the footnotes. FeloniousMonk 00:47, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

"Critics have accused Intelligent Design proponents of trying to find gaps within current evolutionary theory only to fill with speculative beliefs, and that Intelligent Design in this context may ultimately amount to the "God of the gaps" ."

This is more a criticism of Creation science than Intelligent Design and it does not belong on this page. --Ben 01:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Since the same criticism could be, and is, leveled at ID, I think it does belong on this page. While officially ID does not speculate on the designer, it does assert that it can fill gaps in current scientific understanding with its designer. -- Ec5618 01:54, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Since ID is not the same as "Creation science" (Creation science not in the cosmonological sense, but in the religious and biblical sense), then this similar critique should contrast with the differences on what exactly is being criticized. I don't see any difference in the critiques, but by all means tell what it is. Which of the "gaps within current evolutionary theory" are different when it comes to ID and Creation science? I realize this is a difficult question, I do know that critics say this of ID proponents which should be included, but they say the same thing about Creation science proponents. Exactly what part of ID are they criticizing? If they are only criticizing the creation science part then it should be said that they are doing that. Or, if this critique is based on the fact that part of ID is creation science then the ID article needs to mention this. For example, "Like Creation science, a criticism directed at ID is that..." Or, the criticisms should be quotes and speak for themselves.--Ben 02:18, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Being a reformulated God of the gaps argument is one of the more common criticisms of ID. To claim it is not would you'd have to overcome literally hundreds of references. An easy way to check is to just Google "intelligent design" + "god of the gaps". It returns ~30,000 hits, of which this article is the first. That leaves 29,000.

Anyone wishing to remove the observation would have to begin by disproving those first. How they'd disprove a statement made by someone that is readily verifiable by anyone using Google is beyond me. FeloniousMonk 02:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Refusal to discuss, misinterpretation, and bad faith. That's par for the course with you. Get a grip. --Ben 02:18, 5 November 2005 (UTC) Comment removed for personal attack against FeloniousMonk.

It is my opinion that that happens to be off-topic. I do believe that I never claimed it is not a common criticism. Please avail yourself to my opinion provided and do not assume I am making this assertion. I would hope you would respect my opinion and discuss my opinion in a rational and civil way. I thank you for your time and would like to provide my services to you and your family for this simple request. Sincerely yours, --Ben 06:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Pseudoscience

I'd like a headcount: how many regular editors here have adopted WP:NPOV#Pseudoscience as the operating principle for editing this article? That is to say, how many think that writing about ID constitutes "describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false."?

This has been hashed out here before, but it deserves constant re-examination, because adopting WP:NPOV#Pseudoscience for any topic is a dramatic and controversial step, espescially for a topic like ID, which is not just contemporary, but a fluid issue that's being hashed out right now. SanchoPanza 00:07, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

WP:NPOV#Pseudoscience is not controversial. It is well-established policy.

Everyone who edits Misplaced Pages tacitly accepts the WP:NPOV policy or has no expectation of their contributions surviving long. Those contributing to articles on pseudoscience are no exception. If there is a NPOV policy on covering pseudoscientific topics, and the is, then those who ignore it do so at their own risk.

WP:RTA, this is a settled issue. Stop being disruptive and wasting our time with tendentious objections. FeloniousMonk 00:12, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

"There is no controversy"?? If it's a settled issue, why does every single archive of this talk page have reams of objections to this articles POV? It's perfectly valid to clarify the policy that the majority of the editors here have adopted. SanchoPanza 00:17, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Ah, the Teach the Controversy strategy... misstate an issue (WP:NPOV#Pseudoscience is controversial) which prompts an angry rebuttal. Then allege the rebuttal is evidence that there is a "controversy".

Furthermore, it takes no effort to understand why nearly every newbie ID proponent who shows up here bent on rewriting the article to be more sympathetic to ID wants to remove any reference to ID as pseudoscience.

You're no different and your intent and method are transparent: You're merely try to remove an obstacle to a POV redefinition of ID by appealing to the masses for support. Problem is, the policies are not elective here.

You're also intentionally misstating the case: It's not that the "majority of the editors here have adopted" the WP:NPOV#Pseudoscience. It's that all editors are enjoined to follow the policies, including that one. Misplaced Pages is not a buffet, where you pick and choose what polices to follow. The sooner you adopt that the less disruption you'll cause others. FeloniousMonk 00:32, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Ownership of the article

It looks like FeloniousMonk has taken "ownership" of this article. Those who believe he has done this may find this prospect annoying, and even try to "vent" their outrage against him. Such venting, however, will only be counterproductive.

It is a fundamental principle of a wiki that the only way there can be stability on a page, is when all contributors are satisfied that it is describing the situation accurately. And Misplaced Pages:NPOV (a policy I'm especially well-versed in) mandates that all major points of view be fairly and accurately described, when there is a controversy.

ID is controversial. The first sentence of the intro paragraph says so.

It will be interesting for our readers if they are permitted to learn as much as we can easily explain to them about:

1. what ID claims
2. who supports ID (Dembski, Behe, Wills, P.E. Johnson, etc.)
3. what minor variations there are, among the various "flavors" of ID

Having done so, we owe it to them to spend as much time and energy necessary to show how and why opponents of ID reject it. Such as:

1. ID is pseudoscience
2. ID is not falsifiable (i.e., not a "hypothesis")
3. ID is merely a teleological argument (i.e., not even a "theory")
4. ID is merely creationism dressed up in scientific clothing (just like creation science)

Let's just avoid endorsing the view that ID *is* pseudoscience. Rather, say that ___% of scientists assert that it is pseudoscience. There are some polls about this (see Category:evolution polls). What is it? 85% to 95% of scientists call ID pseudoscientific? Or is it 98% or 99.82%?

A better intro might be:

• ID is an argument that that evolution could not have taken place without "intelligent" guidance. Proponents argue that certain biological structures are too complex to have evolved by the action of natural forces alone (see specified complexity, irreducible complexity).
• Opponents dismiss ID on the following grounds (300 to 700 words follow!!)

This is a 40-word intro to what ID is. It could be a bit longer. I forgot to mention the names of its chief proponents; the relation of ID to the "education issue" or the (possibly over-arching) creation-evolution controversy. Uncle Ed 12:29, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

In order to give a sense of historical perspective I'd prefer something along the following lines

The commonsense notion that the intervention of a higher power is necessary to organize matter into complex structures is one of the foundational ideas of Western thought and throughout the Christian Era it has been axiomatic that the marvels of the natural world exist because of the direct intervention of a supremely powerful mind.

From the publication of the theory of evolution by natural selection in 1858 this traditional theistic and teleological perspective in which order and design are ascribed to the volition of a purposive and benign higher being has been challenged progressively by the view that organic complexity is produced by unconscious natural forces.

Although most religious believers from Darwin’s time onward have been content to accept that evolution by natural selection is one the tools used by God to create design in the natural world, a minority, perturbed by the progressive reversal of the traditional order of explanation, have held Darwin’s ideas to be a threat to Christian belief. In this view, to ascribe the origin of “higher” forms endowed with volition to the action of “lower” mechanistic and mindless forces holds the possibility that the need for divine intervention as an explanation might be dispensed with entirely, with dire consequences for human morality and social organization.

In the United States, the traditional mind-first explanation of the natural world is promoted by those who believe in Intelligent Design.

The article could then go on to describe the new elements in the contemporary formulation of the traditional design argument and criticism of those elements. --Ian Pitchford 14:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Ed, I take exception to the first sentence of your proposed introduction. ID is an argument that that evolution could not have taken place without "intelligent" guidance. ID doesn't propose that evolution could have taken place with intelligent guidance. It asserts that evolution could not have taken place. And a better explanation is intelligence. ID makes no positive explanations and any attempt to reconcile ID with evolution dismisses what the ID proponents actually say. --JPotter 16:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I no more own the article than anyone else. Look at the article's history; lots of others contributing. Your claim that I think I own the article is merely a transparent and oblique form of personal attack meant to silence or deflect my criticism of your long history of pro-creationism advocacy in articles at Misplaced Pages. If Misplaced Pages:NPOV is a policy you're "especially versed in" explain way it is more often than not your contributions to creatioism articles are rejected for violating it? You'll find little traction from long-term, responsible contributors for that here as well. That I care enough about the project's goals to help create and maintain a factual, neutral and complete article on a topic that is a POV magnet and needs constant POV patrol because of the near constant pro-ID POV barrage does not mean I think I own it.

Your (Ed) intro wrongly abandons the canonical definition of intelligent design, which is the one offered by the Discovery Institute ("that certain features of the universe and of living things exhibit the characteristics of a product resulting from an intelligent cause or agent, as opposed to an unguided process such as natural selection"). Since ID is wholly a product of the Discovery Institute, with every leading ID proponent is one of its Fellows and every campaign and strategy arising from its offices, defining ID as they do is necessary in the intro for any of the claims made in the article by Dembski, Behe or Johnson to make any sense. Any intro that ignores the canonical definition is deficient. FeloniousMonk 17:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

User:Ed_Poor needs to become much more familiar with the subjects at hand before (re)writing articles. This was true over at creation-evolution controversy and it is true here as well. Joshuaschroeder 17:41, 5 November 2005 (UTC)