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Nadya Suleman

• Articles for deletion/Nadya Suleman
• Articles for deletion/Nadya Suleman (2nd nomination)

Nadya Suleman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Subject of the article is notable for just one thing: having given birth to octuplets after fertility treatment. Hence the page should be a redirect to the notable event. However, a previous AfD debate on this "biography" was closed after just twelve hours by an involved editor. The page is in itself a massive BLP violation, as aspects of this woman's life apart from her unusual approach to motherhood are irrelevant to an encyclopedia. We have got the point of publishing every single name that she has been known under, and linking to an online version of her divorce papers: this is not encyclopedic material, it is gutter journalism. Just because something can be verified does not mean it should be in an encyclopedia: otherwise we might as well just read the National Inquirer. This article should be deleted, nay oversighted, then a protected redirect created to Suleman octuplets, the only thing which even vaguely approaches encyclopedic notability. Physchim62 (talk) 17:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Keep I think to state that she's notable for just the octuplets isn't reflected in the shear number of news articles written about her. Laws are being enacted to prevent this kind of thing from happening again. The doctor that did this is under investigation. Legal battles will most likely arise about custody (hospital is already refusing to release to her). Do to the intense media attention and public interest, if this doesn't justify the one event rule it should qualify under the ignore all rules rule. — raeky  18:00, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Comment On the accusations, the linking to the divorce paper is only a court summons that shows no additional information other then the date it was filed and her name(s). Under the rules for primary sources it is allowed. Due to the MANY names shes been known under and published as in the news outlets, it's necessary to list at least the most common referenced ones in the media. BLP violations are unlikely do to the immense amount of reputable sources for the information. According to WP:LIBEL if the information is from "reliable published sources," then it's valid for inclusion. With the shear number of sources we've included we strive to have EVERY statement backed up with at least one reliable source if not many. Sure some of the sources might be from 'tabloid' papers, but if they are we try to find at least one or more from a reliable news outlet. Problems with sources can easily be fixed (theres been over 17,000 news articles indexed by google news in the past month alone referencing her name) from the shear number of sources out there. — raeky  18:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
• Note to Admin If the decision is to delete or merge, please give the editors plenty of time to readd the information back to the octuplets page. Thanks! — raeky  18:27, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
• Note I'd also like to point out this AfD came after the editors decided decided to get additional input on the validity of listing multiple names shes gone under and which if any should be kept. They decided to post on the BLP notice page for visibility. There it was suggested due to the short time frame the previous AfD ran before it being closed (even though it met the criteria for speedy keep) they felt it should be renominated for more input and thus it was renominated here. The reasoning behind the renomination may qualify for a speedy keep under criteria 1, "for the sake of process." — raeky  18:35, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Speedy Keep, Flawed logic nomination There was an obvious WP:SNOW situation at the first AfD, the nominator withdrew the nomination, and yes, I closed it because the clearly stated conditions at WP:SPEEDYKEEP had been met. The nominator was the only one advocating deletion, and he withdrew, it was over. Re-nominating after so short a time is almost always a bad idea. If there have been bad edits to the article since then, add appropriate tags, or dare I suggest, fix the problems. Maybe some discussion on the talk page, where this issues are being discussed right now, before a speedy re-nomination. Calling for oversight on this is over-the-top ridiculous. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• The first AfD debate was closed after only twelve hours, when we're talking about very serious policy points here. I don't hold any grudges that it was closed after the nominator withdrew the nomination but, just three days later, the same editors who were supporting the proposal are now having to discuss the obvious BLP implications, including asking for outside help (a very respectable move of the editors concerned). The editors might not like the answer I propose, but it seems obvious to me that this woman should not have her life dissected on a top-ten website any more than is strictly necessary. Physchim62 (talk) 19:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• That is an excellent rationale for watchlisting the article, posting it at the BLP noticeboard, and so forth, but not for deleting it. AfD is not for cleanup, it is for articles that fail to meet the most basic criteria for an encyclopedic article. This has sources up the ying yang, and, as you pointed out, has some very thoughtful editors doing their best to keep it neutral. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Redirect - Maybe revisit on octuplets 1st birthday and see where we are at :) --Tom 18:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• If anything the octuplets should be redirected to the mother. Multiple births are not all that notable anymore due to the increasing use of fertility treatments, but a mother on welfare who already has a bunch of kids, three of which have been getting disability payments their entire life, plus the lack of a father and the ethics investigation into the doctor who made this whole mess possible add up to notability for the mother more than the kids, about whom there is little to say since they are newborn infants. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• The page is an obvious magnet for BLP violations: it should be salted until this woman has done anything more significant than have fourteen kids, which is not something so unusual in itself and in historical terms. Physchim62 (talk) 18:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• There are hundreds of pages that are magnets for BLP violations, should we lock them all? Active editors can reverse blatant violations quickly. We strive to get reliable sources for every statement to avoid BLP violations and libel. — raeky  18:43, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Boy Psychim, you really hate this article don't you? Calling for oversight, and now permanent create protection for an article that has been edited in good faith by dozens of people and handily survived an AfD just a few days ago? It's not just that she has so many kids, it's the circumstances in which she had them, and the almost universally negative public reaction. That is unusual and notable and may represent the beginning of a change in the way Americans view fertility treatments and multiple births. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Yes, I do hate this type of article (I've nothing special against this one in particular, but it came up on my radar so there you go). Why on earth should we have articles which we know are going to cause us problems when the guidelines (and common sense) says there's a better way round the problem? Why should other editors have to look out for BLP violations on two pages when they could simply be doing it on one? Why should Misplaced Pages be the hostage to a handful of media junkies who feel that it's their right to publish every personal detail they can find about some single mother in California? Eliminating the gutter journalism and media vultures from Misplaced Pages would go a long way to making flagged revisions unnecessary. This is a project to write an encyclopedia, not a yellow press newspaper. Physchim62 (talk) 19:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• The Octuplet's page is going to draw just as much BLP violation problem edits as her page would. I still feel that she meets the criteria for her own page. If the main argument is just that this is going to receive a lot of BLP violations then I find that a weak argument. Active editors can quickly revert edits that are not backed up with reliable sources. — raeky  —Preceding undated comment added 19:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC).

• Redirect - I disagree with some of the arguments here. The event is the birth of the octuplets, which already has an article. Not the woman. This is going to be another one of those problematic BLPs that every Joe Bob edits immediately after some tidbit of negative information is aired on Geraldo or Nancy Grace. Keeping the bio details in the article about the birth will make it easier to manage the inevitable issues. In fact, as this is bound to be ephemeral anyway, I'd argue that the bio be separated later if applicable, not now. I cringe at any BLP that exists only because of "juicy" negative information and recentism. §FreeRangeFrog 19:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• The nomitator in his inital post is advocating a redirect. This alone should qualify it for speedy keep under reason 1, the nominator either withdraws the nomination, or wishes the page to be moved, merged, or have something else done to it other than deletion. Although I'm not going to push this because I think it should come to a natural keep conclusion. But according to policy it should be speedily kept. — raeky  19:42, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm assuming that a redirect would result in most of the current "content" of the article being deleted. As such AfD is an appropriate forum to discuss the matter. Physchim62 (talk) 20:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• Strong Keep and No Redirect - The basis for the nomination is incorrect -- Ms. Suleman has become internationally notable for much more than the "event" of the birth of octuplets. There are many issues surrounding this case for which she is notable -- she has 14 kids conveived through IVF (including 6 previous children), use of public assistance while undergoing expensive IVF treatment, medical ethics of the physician involved, the questions about her preparedness to care for 14 young children, exceptionally lengthy time on workers' comp, refusal of free housing and nursing care, burden on her aging parents, possible foreclosure of the home she lives in, her own contradictory statements, etc. that are covered by numerous qualifying reliable sources. The case has created an incredible amount of public debate and spawned legislative proposals in multiple states. WP is in a unique position to have an article that is properly sourced and updated rather than the trash and rumors published by the tabloids. By refusing an article about this extremely controversial person, WP would lessen its relevance.

There are thousands of biographical articles which do not begin to meet notability requirements, yet here there is no question of notability and IMO, no question that she is notable for more than one "event." Even this guideline is not set in stone. See John Smeaton (baggage handler), an extensive article on someone definitely known for only one "event." Under the premise being used for deleting this article, the Smeaton article should also be deleted. Biographical articles should be based upon notability and should not not be deleted due to a desire to limit public attention to the subject. Toounstable (talk) 20:07, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment to the Admin who makes the decision, please consider all of the comments on the previous AFD discussion page in your decision. Toounstable (talk) 20:11, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

• AfD debates (Biographical)
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