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Colonies Chris and Kendrick7: due process in question

User:Colonies Chris, a party to the current ArbCom "date-unlinking" case, has been blocked by the trainee clerk on the case, User:Tiptoety, for allegedly breaking a temporary injunction issued by ArbCom on 13 January. This raises three issues concerning both tenets of natural justice ("Everyone is entitled to a hearing" and "Justice must be seen to be done"). I'm sure that ArbCom is keen to adhere to these tenets, as a judicial body that—by its own policy—pays service to real-world legal principles.

1. Apparently arbitrary punishment. Oddly, the block was without warning and gave the user no opportunity to respond to the accusation. This is in contrast to other blocks of parties in this case (e.g., those involving User:Ohconfucius and User:dabomb87, which have arisen from matters raised here by members of the opposing side and processed openly). Specifically, we deserve to know whether the trainee clerk (a) identified the alleged behaviour him/herself, or was alerted to it privately by an opposing party, and (b) considered posting the matter here before acting, as a matter of openness and fairness (where parties are expected to "notify the user of report at his or her user talk page".
2. Query as to whether the injunction has been breached. The injunction says, inter alia, "all editors are instructed not to engage in any program of mass linking or delinking of dates" (my italics). "Mass delinking" was not explicitly defined, but it has already been established that unlinking in the course of other improvements is acceptable (diffs on request). Subsequently, Arbitrator Vandenburg made this statement: "The injunction doesnt completely prohibit the use of scripts, however editors should not be primarily focused on delinking." The user's unlinkings were a minor part of other significant improvements made to the articles cited by the trainee clerk. The user claims at his talk page that they include "unlinking duplicates or removing incorrect formatting". Nominators at FAC and FLC have been unlinking their articles as a matter of course (required by those processes); there appears to be no problem there, or has everyone been breaching the temporary injunction for the past six weeks on that count? Where does the boundary lie that marks out what "mass delinkings" are? If the boundary is not explicit, the matter should be brought here first to allow the affected party to argue their case, shouldn't it?
3. Perception of one-sidedness. Clerks are expected to be neutral in their management of ArbCom cases; however, this sudden, unilateral blocking of a party from one side brings into stark view the fact that a party from the other side has been allowed to embark on a campaign to relink dates/date-fragments all over the place. I'm not blaming the trainee clerk for this, but the situation needs to be dealt with if we are to retain a sliver of confidence in the fairness of the hearings process. Far from being part of a larger article improvement program that has been ongoing for more than a year (in Colonies Chris's case), this appears to be a single-minded attempt to relink these items on a grand scale. A clear-cut, wilful breach of the injunction has escaped ArbCom's attention by one side, while punishment has been meted out without the opportunity for self-defence or debate by the other.

I believe it would be proper to (a) reverse the block and to allow Colonies Chris the opportunity to argue the case openly, here, in good faith, and (b) investigate Kendrick7's behaviour in this respect. Tony (talk) 03:32, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I have asked an arbitrator multiple times to clarify the injunction, but to no avail (diffs available on request). Dabomb87 (talk) 04:48, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Goodness. I had no idea linking the year of the founding of the city where I grew up would become an arbitration matter. -- Kendrick7 05:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I have posted a courtesy note at Tiptoety's talk page, in case s/he has not put this on watch. Tony (talk) 06:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

The block looks fine to me. There's some pretty clear testing of limits going on here. Administrators are like the Highway Patrol; they certainly aren't going to catch every speeder, nor is that expected of them. Risker (talk) 10:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• Well, Kendrick7 has been caught here. Fifteen date links a day isn’t “testing of limits”; it’s pure & simple flouting of rules. If Tony or I were busy de‑linking 15 dates a day, we’d be strapped down and have bamboo shoots shoved under our fingernails. If you admins expect to be perceived as fair, maybe a *little* bit of warning is in order for Kendrick7?? I see that he just now (64 minutes after Tony’s above post, and only three minutes after responding to Tony on his talk page about this ANI) welcomed 63 editors using {{welcome-anon}} and this has pushed all his date-related edits off the top 50 list. Regardless, a look at his most recent 500 edits shows what he’s been up to. If he continues to get away with this, perhaps he should receive his second Barnstar for diligence:

		The Barnstar of Diligence
		I award this Barnstar to you, Kendrick7 for your splendid accomplishment of flying under the radar, flouting MOSNUM guidelines, flouting ArbCom warnings, and linking 15 dates a day, day after day. That is diligence.

As for Kendrick7’s evasive response here: “Goodness. I had no idea linking the year of the founding of the city where I grew up would become an arbitration matter”, well, golly gee Kendrick, nice deflecto-attempt; but it’s not about a single edit you did to an article about the city in which you grew up; it’s purely about being a party to the ArbCom and making the linking of dates a focus of your daily efforts in defiance of an ArbCom ruling. So just pardon me all over the place if I have a problem with people who think rules, like “12 items or less at this grocery checkout stand” applies to everyone but you. Greg L (talk) 16:56, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Colonies Chris is not one to "test limits". Have you read what your colleague John Vandenburg said, quoted above? How does this relate to your conclusion that the block "looks fine"? I have raised a number of questions about procedural fairness that you have not responded to. A "looks fine to me" is not going to convince anyone, I'm afraid. We are still waiting to learn why Kendrick is allowed to flout the injunction, while Chris is punished for what appears to be not flouting it. We have been misled by John Vandenburg, and by the wording of the injunction, it seems. And concerning your bizarre analogy to cops and speeders: it would be a good idea for the ArbCom process to be seen to be fair to both sides, such that when CKatz comes along and points his finger at Chris, and I come along and point my finger at Kendrick, both are given equal weight. It has nothing to do with chance, as you seem to be suggesting. We await your further comments on these matters. The points are numbered above for convenient referencing in your reply.

And just so there's no doubt about this, Kendrick has been conducting a systematic program of relinking—typically 15 a day since about 28 February, but I see five on 23 February, so it's gone back further; these are visits to articles solely for the purpose of relinking years, and occasionally decades and other chronological items. I don't know how many diffs you require (they're all here on his contribs page, but if you want me to spend half an hour gathering them all, please let me know. Here are just a few from 7 March: , (previous two a little revert-war with someone called Attilios), , , . Seems to be an ongoing flagrant breach of the injunction, doesn't it? Tony (talk) 12:07, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, well, thanks for the star, GregL. But I'm not a party to this case, I've been linking years not dates, I've been doing so, with rare exception, only on pages linked from WP:MAIN, and I haven't been using any scripts or automation. This injunction simply doesn't apply to this as far as I am concerned and under the guidance John Vandenberg provided here. -- Kendrick7 20:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Kendrick, while everything you say may be true, it would still be better to voluntarily honor the spirit of the injunction, which is to refrain from contentious date-related edits while the ArbCom case is being worked out. I want to see dates linked and in my preferred format too, but I want to get there the right way. --Sapphic (talk) 21:57, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Knowing the way Colonies Chris works, I do not believe he violated the injunction in any way. I would not be at all surprised that the blocking admin saw the edit summaries and panicked. Having looked at all his edits of 6 March, very few edits actually involve dates, and those which do have an overwhelming amount of other improvements such as orthograph and overlinking ameliorations. The only conclusion any reasonable editor would reach is that there has obviously not been any "mass delinking of dates". The block makes me wonder if this is yet another trigger-happy admin acting without either careful research of the "problematic edits" or a proper warning posted on AE or the user's talk page. It further makes me wonder whether any of the parties to this dispute are actually allowed do any editing at all. The admin concerned should immediately review his/her action with a view to restating Chris' right to go about not violating the injunction. - Posted on behalf of User:Ohconfucius. Tiptoety 22:22, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

First let me start by saying that I apologize I was unable to respond to this earlier. Right as Tony1 posted to my talk page I was walking out the door to go to work, and upon coming home early this morning took advantage of the time to get some much needed sleep. My reason for saying this is to 1. explain why I did not respond earlier, and 2. to reinforce that I am human (needing sleep and all) and am prone to mistakes, not a robot who is 100% fair in every situation as I truly think “fairness” is different to each party involved and to each side of the dispute, and have not devoted my life to editing Misplaced Pages.

Now, to address Tony1’s comments above:

1. I am not sure this block was given without any warning. I mean the parties were notified on their talk page in regards to the injunction and are well aware it was in place. I think the bigger question is why they thought it would be a good idea to push the limits. As for the other blocks, I do not recall there ever being warnings issued, nor do I feel there need be any issued. If a person violates a injunction put in place by ArbCom after they were notified, should they not be blocked? I felt no need to warn Colonies Chris as I would only be telling him something he already knew. As for your question in regards to how I became aware of the delinking, it was notified on my talk page by Ckatz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) whom I have never interacted with before, nor am I aware which side of the dispute he stands on. Because of this, I looked into the situation and as a reasonable administrator I blocked Colonies Chris for what appeared to me to be a fairly clear violation of the injunction. Should it have been posted to AE? No, I feel I would have taken administrative action anyways as like I said before, I feel he violated the injunction.

1. You are right. The injunction leaves a lot of room up to the person enforcing it. To be honest, I never saw Vandenburg’s post. I instead did what I thought the injunction was here for, and that was to stop automated “mass” date delinking. And Colonies Chris’s appeared like mass delinking to me. I was able to easily provide 11 diffs, and there were more. I feel that the term “mass” is open to interpretation, and that interpretation is left up to the administrator taking the action. I really doubt had I taken this action against Kendrick7, the interpretation of "mass" would have been much different than my interpretation here.
2. Please do not say I am being one sided. I am not magic, I am not a super hero. I can not see every violator, nor should I be expected to. I see what is presented to me. And yes, I looked at Colonies Chris’s edits (more than just the edit summaries). As for the post about Kendrick7 to my talk page, I did not have time to deal with it then. Like I said, I had work in less than a hour and was rampantly busy at the time. That said I am more than willing to look into the behavior of Kendrick7, and ask that in the future parties bring issues here opposed to my talk page in a hope to avoid situations like this as to be blatantly honest, situations like this make me think Misplaced Pages is a big waste of time.

Tiptoety 23:06, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Modification to injunction

One thing I think all concerned parties agree on is that the current situation — with anons (and editors who have specified "no preference") seeing an inconsistent mix of date formats within a single article — is bad. If people could agree to just fix formats within an article, and not link/de-link any dates (just leave all the date linking as-is) then I think that would actually be acceptable to everyone involved. Could the injunction be modified to apply only to changing the link status of dates, and to allow date edits that simply fix format? Or would that be too hard to enforce, since people could bury their linking/de-linking in a sea of format edits? --Sapphic (talk) 18:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• I agree regarding formatting. We’ll be addressing this in the ArbCom and RfCs too, I expect. Greg L (talk) 23:19, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Sapphic, thank you for your attempts to bring about changes to the injunction. I have queried a clerk and Arb several times, but have either not received a response or have been waved off because (paraphrase) "the Arbs are close to a decision". Dabomb87 (talk) 18:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I think the injunction should have "dates" changed to "chronological items" as I explained here. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I find it odd that you (Dabomb87) are still delinking dates, despite the injunction. See, for example, these edits of yours: (1) and (2). See also this previous complaint about your delinking activities. Tennis expert (talk) 22:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• TE, I rarely bother to mess around in too many articles. If I stumble across one that has an inane date that is linked contrary to MOSNUM, I delink it. That doesn’t happen too often (I can’t exactly recall when I last bothered) and hardly qualifies as “mass delinking”. You’ve cited two whole examples where Dabomb87 has delinked dates. Both occurred on 7 March, where his edit history clearly shows he was busy with a wide variety of other types of edits. That doesn’t exactly impress as being sufficent evidence for “mass delinking.” Perhaps you might cite some better evidence. Greg L (talk) 23:19, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Malcolm Schosha and templating the regulars

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Malcolm Schosha just falsely accused me using a template of engaging in 3RR. The template doesn't mention in which page this alleged 3RR was engaged, but does mentions the edits of an specific user, so I must assume he refers to Antisemitic incidents during the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict.

A perusal of the edit history will show that there is no 3RR violation, and the fact that I have had an account in Misplaced Pages for almost four years, with almost 10,000 edits, shows that I am not a new editor, so templating me was not needed, specially on the part of an involved editor.

Due to this templating, I ask that an uninvolved administrator please formally inform him of the terms of the WP:ARBPIA, and that this be logged. I hope that a further understanding on the conditions in which we edit my provide this user with the opportunity to reflect and correct his treatment of other editors, and allow for a more positive collaboration and editing environment.--Cerejota (talk) 19:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Let's assume good faith. Perhaps Malcolm Schosha was just confused. WP:DTTR is an essay, worth reading and following, but it's not policy. Could you notify him about this thread and let's see what he says. Jehochman 21:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. And Malcolm was himself just templated. And Misplaced Pages grinds on. IronDuke 21:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• What goes around, comes around. No arbitration enforcement needed here. Jehochman 23:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

For the record, I notified User:Malcolm Schosha before It was suggested by Jehochman, and did so in my own talk page before I posted here.--Cerejota (talk) 04:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

User:ScienceApologist on Creation science, Atropa belladonna in violation of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:ScienceApologist, per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science is "banned from editing any article relating to fringe science topics, broadly construed, for a period of six months. ScienceApologist is free to edit the talk pages of such articles."

Creation science is a fringe science topic. In this edit, ScienceApologist adds a space after a comma. ScienceApologist is not permitted to edit Creation science. I have reverted his edit.

Atropa belladonna has been twice protected due to fringe-science edit wars (over Homeopathy). It is, in fact, under the Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Homeopathy decision under Discretionary sanctions re:Homeopathy, which is a "fringe science topic." The article was edited by Science Apologist here, in which he Wikilinks subshrub. I have reverted his edit.

I will inform SA of this report. The fact that his edits are harmless copyediting is not relevent to the fact that his valid ban prevents him from copyediting on pages related to Fringe Science. Hipocrite (talk) 14:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

This fits in with his stated desire to push the boundaries and the statement of his desire to "IAR" his topic ban by the Arbitration Committee on his talk page. I would recommend blocking him for a short amount of time, 12 hours or so, and moving it up if/when he continues to ignore his topic ban. SirFozzie (talk) 14:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Another adherent of the Misplaced Pages:Punitive model it seems. How droll. You should have never been made an administrator with that attitude. Jehochman is right. Arbcom erred terribly when it made it "illegal" to make unambiguous improvements to the encyclopedia simply because I happened to see them. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Stop taking the bait. Hipocrite, don't file any more complaints, and don't revert useful contributions such as formatting or grammar fixes. After there is a lengthy pattern of abuse, we can propose to have SA banned entirely. This incremental block-unblock cycle is utterly useless. Check SA's block log. Short blocks don't work. Jehochman 15:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Baring a clear, unambigous statement that it is disruptive of the encyclopedia for me to do so, I feel it is my obligation to notify this board of violations of all sanctions I am aware of when I see them. I will endeavor to avoid reversions of SA's edits that are "obviously helpful", but I must still presume to revert. Looking over this again, I would have merely reported the space, but still would have reverted the wikification, as I can't be sure that linking to subshrub doesn't have some meaning to homeopaths that would be offensive. Hipocrite (talk) 15:28, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with H. I can't think of any previous topic bans for which violations were to be ignored and reporting of them considered "baiting". I interpret SA's actions as being driven by contempt of the ArbCom process and an attempt to undermine them. In fact I think he would probably admit that openly. Ronnotel (talk) 15:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Ronnotel is partly correct. I have reached a nadir in my respect for arbcom. However, my actions were not driven by this contempt (remember WP:AGF). They were driven by a desire to improve the encyclopedia. I can't help it if we have arbitrators who make rulings that are so orthogonal to helpful they're nearly impossible to enforce. I warned them of it on the talkpage, but apparently they had better things to do than listen. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not make an accusation of "contempt" lightly. In particular, the statement on your talk page declaring that "This user ignores all arbitration rulings made about him" indicates that you are not willing to abide by any ArbCom ruling with which you disagree. Ronnotel (talk) 15:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

You are correct that I have "contempt for arbcom", but that contempt is not itself what is inspiring my edits. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

This seems to be a case of "lets see how far I can go before they stop me". Like being told not to cross a line, then putting your pinky toe over the line to see if you get a reaction. I suggest our reaction is to make the boundary very clear to discourage further testing. The example of personal attack above does not fill me with sympathy. Chillum 15:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Oooooor, we could evaluate each edit on its own merits. Keeping SA from editing frince articles is fine, but if he's making uncontroversial typographic fixes, etc. we should be thanking him for improving the encyclopedia rather than warning/blocking/banning him. I'm someone who has generally disagreed with SA (and other like him) in the past, but even I think this is stupid. If it's a controversial edit, bring it here. If it's something like fixing the spelling of "anouncement" or putting a space after a comma, let. it. go. Mahalo. --Ali'i 15:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm completely uninvolved here, but ScienceApologist, why can't you just propose the edits (even typo fixes and other innocuous stuff) on the talk page and let other editors make the edits? It's compatible with the ArbCom restriction and still allows you to improve the articles, albeit indirectly. alanyst 16:33, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Nthing not taking the bait. SA is attention seeking, please stop giving him what he wants. Artw (talk) 16:41, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Proposing a typofix on the talk page is absurd. Ideally, SA would avoid such articles completely to reduce drama. If SA decides to provoke drama by making typo fixes, you all should be smart enough not to take the bait. Come back if SA tries to provoke an edit war by making controversial edits. Otherwise, let it go, as Ali'i has said nicely. We don't enforce rules unless doing so would make the encyclopedia better. Preventing typofixes makes it worse, so we should not enforce against this particular "violation". Jehochman 16:39, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:ARBMAC: Edit war on Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can somebody step in about the ongoing edit war over at Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), between TodorBozhinov (talk · contribs) and PMK1 (talk · contribs)? The two have been engaged in a rather unconstructive pissing contest about who can fill the page with more images symbolically evoking their favourite national perspective on the issue, with openly WP:POINTy edit summaries like "Well, if I can't remove POV images, I'll emphasize the undisputed Bulgarian character of the population in the past by adding old foreign maps. You aksed for it, you got it", or: "No need for extra book covers, for extra partisan photos, etc., etc. You started it, you'll face the consequences.". Not nice. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Though neither of them are new, the edit war seems to have cooled by now. I have given them general warnings with links to the arbitration case, and watchlisted the article in case it comes up again. Dominic·t 12:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

See User talk:Dominic#Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia. I apologize for my choice of wording and I didn't mean to sound threatening, but the article is in need of some serious cleanup and since you guys think my attempts to do that are unproductive, then go fix it. I'm stunned as to how you can allow 5 (five!) pro-Macedonian images in the article and 0 (zero!) that represent the Bulgarian position, not to mention that they are historically much more relevant and useful. In the future, please join the discussion instead of reminding me of policies I've been aware of for years. I haven't been 3RR-ing and my edits are not without reason: bar the edit summary wording, what's the problem? Todor→Bozhinov 14:01, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Users put on notice. As for the content dispute, can you take it to WP:DR or WP:NPOVN, please. Jehochman 23:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

User:ScienceApologist and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science on Atropa belladonna

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science ScienceApologist is banned from editing any article relating to fringe science topics, broadly construed, for a period of six months. ScienceApologist is free to edit the talk pages of such articles.

Atropa belladonna has been twice protected due to fringe-science edit wars (over Homeopathy). It is, in fact, under the Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Homeopathy decision under Discretionary sanctions re:Homeopathy, which is a "fringe science topic."

The article was edited by Science Apologist - after his ban.

I have reverted his edit and will inform him of this report. The fact that I suspect both sides would accept his comment (I think?) is not relevent to the fact that his valid ban prevents him from solving disputes on pages related to Fringe Science. Hipocrite (talk) 22:16, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

This is simply not an article that is categorized as fringe science. I reject it as being "fringe science" and, as discussed here, applying the rules that the people who attempted demarcation outlined would not consider it to be fringe science either. It is an article about a real and actual plant. The edit I did is no different than this edit, this edit, or this edit. I am not disrupting Misplaced Pages because it's actually a very good edit. There is no such thing as a "plant molecule". Plants are made of many different kinds of molecules. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Although the key phrase is supposedly "broadly construed", I don't see how including this in "Fringe Science" is in the spirit of the arbitration ruling. The ruling is not supposed to prevent ScienceApologist making uncontroversial competent edits to articles about plants. So I don't think there's anything to be done here. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:39, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

The page in question has gone through major edit wars about homeopathy, as evidenced by the two article protections and it's inclusion in the Homeopathy sanctions. If SA is allowed to edit article about plants that fringe science edit wars have broken out over, next he'll be allowed to edit articles about preservatives that fringe science edit wars have broken out over, or even molecules, or basic scientific theories. Where do we draw the line? I can't imagine a ban only from articles like Time Cube and Homeopathy is what ArbCom had in mind, was it? Can he edit Cold Fusion, as long as he's not violating any other policies that another editor is subject to?Hipocrite (talk) 22:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Just a note from me saying that I re-incorporated some of ScienceApologist's edit into the article. If I erred against the arbitration ruling, please feel free to revert me. Mahalo. --Ali'i 22:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the article being edited is Atropa belladonna, but the edit in question concerns the plant's relation to Homeopathy. Also, considering the edit history of the Atropa belladonna, the assertion that the edit is 'uncontroversial' just won't fly. And, one should also take note of this Dlabtot (talk) 22:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

much as I would really like to avoid this entire conversation, I would like to call attention to this edit - - ScienceApologist made on the fringe theories noticeboard. I'm thinking particularly about the line "We'll continue to make people who want to see fringe theories treated 'kindly' feel bad...". The implicit threat, combined with his pushing the limits of his sanctions on the AB page (without even, mind you, engaging the lengthy discussion on the AB talk page, which would have been perfectly allowable), suggests that he is entirely unrepentant and recidivist. the 'we' also suggests that he's cooperating with other editors to violate his sanctions, though I have no proof that that is the case beyond that single 'we'. I don't think it's ever been wikipedia practice to make other editors 'feel bad' in order to get your way on articles, and the fact that he is making that claim this soon after receiving sanctions for similar prior bad acts makes me think that stronger sanctions might be in order. pardon the intrusion of my opinion, but I'd rather not see a new round of edit wars begin at AB because he's testing the arbcom waters there. --Ludwigs2 23:16, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

(e/c with Ludwigs2) Regarding , I think that in the aftermath of the ArbCom decision ScienceApologist can be expected to do some mild venting. He won't however be blocked unless he actually acts on this. The arguments here seem too much like slippery slope, and I feel that blocking him for this edit would be proactively clarifying the arbitration ruling in a manner that is both unfair and for little gain to the encyclopedia. The ruling bans him from any article relating to fringe science topics not from performing any edit relating to fringe science topics (bolding mine). The ruling is very open-ended, but to secure blocks for such edits those desiring to prevent him making such edits would probably be better getting an ArbCom clarification. I do however encourage other uninvolved admins here to disagree with me if they see a need. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Deacon: speaking as someone who's been blocked twice for milder venting than this (and that without an arbcom sanction hanging over my head), I have to admit that your post leaves a sour taste in my mouth. bit of a double standard... at any rate, If these sanctions have any meaningful purpose at all, it should be to encourage SA to participate with less aggression and more communication; allowing him to 'vent' like this with impunity simply defeats the purpose of the sanctions. I don't really have an opinion about him getting blocked (I'd be fine if he doesn't and fine if he does) but I think that any clarification of the limits of the sanctions should be expansive. it should be made clear that he's obligated to play nice, and that that obligation extends to everything remotely fringe. --Ludwigs2 00:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts are as follows: If not for the broadly construed part, Deacon, I would agree. Let's not get too legalistic here. I do see this edit as problematic.

He's been restricted from fringe science topics, such as homeopathy. This edit specifically infringes in an area that he's been restricted from. I would not support any action being taken at this point on the issues, however, assuming good faith. Let's make it clear, going forward that his restriction applies to edits within the "fringe science" area and move on. That would be the best way to prevent future issues in a contentious area where he's been restricted. SirFozzie (talk) 23:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

(re to Foz) You would support a warning then, stating that SA will be blocked for performing homeopathy-related edits? Broader wording? Perhaps then this could be converted into a ban, deriving from Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Fringe_science#ScienceApologist_topic_banned, that could be logged for clarity at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Homeopathy#Log_of_blocks.2C_bans.2C_and_restrictions? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't know about the need to file an arbitration clarification request (or how to), but things like this, are deleterious to Misplaced Pages, and should be avoided. Can the community just agree to allow ScienceApologist to correct typos (without needing to go back to arbitration)? While technically "violating" the former ruling, it's clearly helpful to the encyclopedia, and shouldn't be blindly reverted. If a formal request is opened, would someone please copy my comments there? Mahalo. --Ali'i 23:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

With the typos, the problem might be partially that no-one wants to be the admin that blocks a user for fixing typos. On the other hand, letting it go opens up the possibility of gaming and pushing the line. Ideally this should have been clarified, but AE admins aren't fools and will act if a certain line is crossed. SA, at the moment, performs such edits at his own risk. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Could we have some clarification on the actual extent to which users are allowed to deliberately violate bans? Is the rule of thumb that you’re allowed to do it so long as it’s a trivial edit made purely to prove a WP:POINT, or if you are feeling bored and would really like some attention? Artw (talk) 00:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

perhaps this particular issue could be resolved by some ArbCom statement to the effect that editors can revert SA's edits on articles covered by the sanctions without it counting towards 3rr. that way, SA is free to make corrections such as this, but if he does something more questionable no one will have any worries about undoing it? just a thought... --Ludwigs2 00:16, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Anyone care to weigh in on this provacative edit made by ScienceApologist: ? Wasn't SA specifically warned about targetting User:Elonka in such a retalitory fashion (See X5)? I don't think that it is fair to afford SA the "but I was baited" defense any longer, when it is clear that he is the one doing the baiting. -- Levine2112 00:06, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I've warned him specifically on that. I'm working on the wording for the section above, I will post it here and on SA's talk page when I come up with clear enough wording for that "clarification". And Ludwigs, I don't think that would be advisable. SirFozzie (talk) 00:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I say, give him a good old spanking for that. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Not seeing a warning, just a claim that doing so was intimidating (which is laughable, especially considering Elonka's longstanding attempts to intimidate SA with threats of blocks, etc.) and a POINT violation. Elonka was never spanked for her harassment, and neither were other admins who hounded him with biased actions. That's not an excuse for a poor decision here (I was the one who denied the prod), but, come on, we're not here looking for excuses to spank people, we're looking to solve problems, and he was at least right to say that Elonka mever should have made that redirect to her own article in the first place. DreamGuy (talk) 00:59, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

DG: Note, I've warned him not to continue, I'm not going to block him or what not if he doesn't continue. I can certainly have words with Elonka about that, but to prod it smacks heavily of being a retaliatory measure against an editor who he's had conflict with. Considering the history between the two users, and the ArbCom findings against SA, he really should ought to know better then that. SirFozzie (talk) 01:04, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Clarification of ScienceApologist's topic ban

Since there could be some lingering confusion on the topic ban of ScienceApologist, which reads as follows, I have clarified the restriction as an ArbCom Enforcement action:

The restriction: 3.1) ScienceApologist (talk · contribs) is banned from editing any article relating to fringe science topics, broadly construed, for a period of six months. ScienceApologist is free to edit the talk pages of such articles.

Passed 8 to 3 with 1 abstention, 00:38, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The clarification: Violations of this topic ban include making edits concerning fringe science topics, even to articles that would not be considered fringe science topics. SirFozzie (talk) 01:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks you, SirFozzie. I hope for his sake that ScienceApologist will follow this clarification given his recent proclamation:

"This user ignores all arbitration rulings made about him."

-- Levine2112 01:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

If that quotation is not pressing for a battle, I don't know what is. Thanks for the clarification SirFozzie. seicer | talk | contribs 01:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Before we go any further, I want to make something fervently clear. This is MY action. I do not speak for ArbCom. I do not think for ArbCom. I do not dance for ArbCom. This is my action to make it clear that he can't hide behind the legal fiction that since 95% of an article does not cover his topic ban, he can freely edit the five % on which he's topic banned.

However, with statements like the one SA has made below, basically saying "Oh yeah? Well, I'm going to do it anyway".. combined with the statement copied above that he's planning on ignoring all ArbCom rulings against him, I hope that someone pulls him out of the spiral he's currently in. Misplaced Pages needs all the good editors they can get. SirFozzie (talk) 01:36, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I support this clarification. It's exactly what is needed. If there's any process opposition you can always just log it as a new restriction at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Homeopathy#Log_of_blocks.2C_bans.2C_and_restrictions, which provides for such things. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Hey look, Ludwigs, Dlabtot and Levine are all getting their pieces of pie in. I better get mine in too... Shot info (talk) 01:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Interesting to note that he has a prior restriction that has since lapsed on this very article. seicer | talk | contribs 01:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• This page is not a chatroom. It is not for clarifications either. It is for requesting enforcement of ArbCom decisions. The usual antagonists of SA (Hello, Levine 2112) should refrain from lobbying here. Leave it to other editors who don't have so much bad blood. Jehochman 03:03, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Arbcom case: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Fringe science Arbcom case: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Homeopathy

I request that Arbcom either enforce their remedies or not make them. Allowing User:ScienceApologist to edit the Atropa belladonna page and to contribute to talk pages on fringe science articles, homeopathy articles, and any article on Misplaced Pages that can be used as by him and his cohorts as an anti-pseudo science banner is simply expanding the problem, that brought about the initial arbcom cases.

Now, SA is on the A. belladonna talk page at war with User:Levine2112.

Is there any chance whatsoever of actually enforcing these arbcom decisions so that editors can write about the plant? SA has proven beyond any need for investigation that given the least slack he will abuse the discretion granted him. Any talk page he posts on will bring about a posse of rabid anti-fringe-scientists who will attempt, as they are doing on the A. belladonna article, to insert anti-fringe science banners in 100 ways, edit warring about it, debating the issue for months on end in hopes of attriting the opposition, and originally interpreting any reference they can find to support the harshest anti pseudo science statement they can possible put into an article, no matter how much undue weight, and no matter how tangentially related to the article.

I would really like to write about this plant, and about herbs, and herbals, but I can't write anything while in these areas while Misplaced Pages is a proving ground for just how much the rampant anti-fringe science group can get away with on Misplaced Pages. Arbcom has made decisions. Please, just enforce them instead of tiptoeing around editors who are disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point.

Use the above non-decisions for diffs.

--KP Botany (talk) 10:13, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Hasn't this been addressed above? Have you tried any other DR measures? Several other editors are also involved. SA is allowed to edit talk pages. There is no case to answer. Verbal chat 10:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I am asking here for an arbitrator to enforce an existing arbcom decision. I'm not asking you to discuss A. belladonna here, and this is the place for discussing arbcom enforcement of decissions, not other DR measures. --KP Botany (talk) 10:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

What a peculiar perspective: "Misplaced Pages is a proving ground for just how much the rampant anti-fringe science group can get away with on Misplaced Pages" – the example you've pointed to looks like a proving ground for how much uncritical support for fringe pseudoscience views can be inserted into scientific articles. WP:UNDUE should be fully adhered to, without the battleground reversions apparent from the pro-fringe editors. . . dave souza, talk 11:05, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Who are the "pro-fringe" editors on the article? What's so peculiar about my perspective considering just how much of fringe science on Misplaced Pages is about discussing the anti-fringe science editors, and not just these two arbcom decisions? And just how much SA is getting away with after being banned from editing in the arena of pseudoscience. --KP Botany (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll take this bait: Levine is one. Verbal chat 11:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I defy you to find one of my edits or comments in all of the time I've been at Atropa belladonna which backs up your assertion that I am a pro-fringe editor. All you have to do is provide one diff which demonstrates that I am "pro-fringe". Come on. It should be easy if I am what you say I am. Instead, I think what you are going to find is that I am very much pro-NPOV. See, what I recognize is that although homeopathy is pseudoscience, it is also knowledge. True or false, right or wrong, effective or not, the homeopathic usage of belladonna is well documented and notable. There is absolutely no reason to exclude this information from the article. ScienceApologist has tried for a long to remove any mention of it from the article. Why? Because he feels that since homeopathic is pseudoscience that any mention of it should be limited to the Homeopathy article. That is out-and-out POV pushing. I recognize this, and have argued that homeopathy should be mentioned in Atropa bellandonna since its use is well-documented and notable. I have not made any argument that we should present the homeopathic usage in a positive light. I have not made any claim that homeopathy works. In fact, if you read the archives, you will see that I have stated just the opposite. I don't believe in homeopathy. I think it is bunk. And I think that its pseudoscientific nature is undeniable. However, my challenge to you stands. Just find one diff which proves your assertion; that I am a pro-fringe editor. I'll be away this weekend, but I either look forward to viewing the diff on my return or - if you are unable to find such a diff - I look forward to seeing your retraction and apology to me. Thanks. -- Levine2112 18:55, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. For the record, I think KP Botany's state above is untrue: Now, SA is on the A. belladonna talk page at war with User:Levine2112. Neither I nor SA are on the talk page at war with anyone. -- Levine2112 18:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

By saying you were pro-fringe I meant exactly what you have stated above, and no offence was intended. You are for the inclusion of fringe topics. That's a POV and it's fine, and I don't generally disagree. I may disagree with you sometimes. Note though that on this talk page I have been arguing for full information, not the removal of homeopathy; if homeopathy is included all relevant information about the plant and homeopathy should be included. Thanks, Verbal chat 23:20, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

SA is not banned from talk pages SFAIK; if there is some remedy which states that which I have missed, post a link here. Otherwise, you are on the wrong page for what appears to be a content dispute. KillerChihuahua 12:19, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

And here are the applicable remedies for the two cases:

• ScienceApologist is free to edit the talk pages of such articles.
• Editors wishing to edit in these areas are advised to edit carefully, to adopt Misplaced Pages's communal approaches (including ... dispute resolution

KillerChihuahua 12:23, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that ScienceApologist isn't banned from the Atropa belladonna talk page, however I think KP Botany was indicating that he could be under the homeopathy or pseudoscience restrictions, although he would have to be formally notified first. The same restriction could also be applied to Levine2112. PhilKnight (talk) 12:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Accurate enough; however I fail to see an attempt at DR before coming here. I'd prefer to see something attempted, at least, before warning either of those two under AE - I would anyway, and its specified in that case. KillerChihuahua 15:29, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

"Now, SA is on the A. belladonna talk page at war with User:Levine2112."

I've looked through the history of that page carefully, three times to make sure I didn't miss something, and the last edit I can see to that page from SA occurred August 11, 2008. While I don't necessarily agree with SA's deliberate testing of the limits of his topic ban (which does not extend to talk pages BTW) it seems to me that those who are trying the last couple of days to take SA down for good could at least use valid verifiable examples of his violating the ban, instead of making up things out of whole cloth. Woonpton (talk) 16:39, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• Can anybody tell me why KP Botany shouldn't be sanctioned for filing a frivolous enforcement request? This page is full of pleas from the usual suspects to block SA. Asking for blocks over and over and over again on flimsy grounds is WP:POINT and should be deterred. I am not at all interested in response from anyone other than KP Botany themselves, or some uninvolved editor who might be familiar with what's going on here. I am not looking for answers from the usual parties to fringe science disputes. Jehochman 18:53, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Oops, I made a mistake, his recent edit was to the article page itself in support of his cohorts arguments on the talk page, the huge number of other edits devoted to supporting making the article an anti-pseudoscience platform on the talk page were all ancient, and, after all, he's allowed to participate in the year long discussion of including their anti fringe science platform (zero molecules) in this particular or any article. Please, do sanction me, block me, fire me, whatever you're afraid to and will never do to ScienceApologist as more of Wikiepdia is consumed by this garbage while Arbcom sits around and does nothing about the real problem, issues decisions it will never support, and generally makes it clear that total disruption of writing the encyclopedia is 100% sanctioned if it supports ScienceApologist's or anyone's agenda of using Misplaced Pages article space to promote their anti-pseudo science agenda.
  • Please do see how many other editors you can sanction as fallout for failing to deal with ScienceApologist, editors who would otherwise be writing real science articles, who are sick to death of this endless pushing of anti-pseudoscience which has risen to the level of quackery itself. Please ban me for a year for wanting to write about a plant I'm very familiar with and include some interesting, current, and missing information about the botany of the plant. --KP Botany (talk) 19:55, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

"Oops, I made a mistake, his recent edit was to the article page itself in support of his cohorts arguments on the talk page"

For the record, SA's most recent edit was to add a wikilink to the word "subshrub" which already existed in the article, and the next most recent edit before that was to change "contains few or no molecules of the original plant" to "is diluted to the point of being chemically indistinguishable from pure dilutant." In neither case is the article changed substantially, nor do the edits support the charge that he was editing as a way of supporting or opposing those engaged in a battle. Whether he should be editing this article at all is a matter for the current clarification to determine, but as I said above, when making charges, the charges ought to be backed up by actual verifiable evidence. It is correct to say that SA edited this page, once yesterday and once the day before; it is not accurate to say that the edits changed the article to reflect any bias. Nor is it valid to complain about SA's being "allowed" to participate in the discussion, after it's already been pointed out that he hasn't actually participated in that discussion since last August. The overwrought tone here is inexplicable and unhelpful. Woonpton (talk) 20:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Be sure to let me know when I'm sanctioned, as I won't be watching this page any more. It was absurd to think that I could write science in a Misplaced Pages article already taken over by this quackery. In fact, trying to write science on Misplaced Pages is an overt act of hostility on my part. The gameboys nominate the science articles for deletions, the amateurs don't quite get the science and revert it without elaborate explanations and days of discussion on the talk page, and now, the anti-pseudo-science quacks own the articles with the blessing of arbcom. --KP Botany (talk) 20:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I hear that. try to write from a proper scientific perspective on Misplaced Pages on some articles, and you end up in something resembling an Abbot and Costello routine, except no one thinks it's funny. But, you know, whatever. if ArbCom doesn't want to put its foot down about neutrality and civility, well... it's their project, their choice, and wikipedia's loss. best you can do is keep working at it patiently in the hopes it will eventually work itself out (otherwise you might as well give up now and save yourself the aggravation; let the POV-warriors on both sides keep-on-keepin-on in their own terrible bliss ). as it stands, every academic I know (and I know a lot of them) grades students down when they cite wikipedia for anything without a whole lot of critical back-checking, so in the academic world at least, this kind of nonsense isn't doing any harm. --Ludwigs2 21:38, 7 March 2009 (UTC)