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A fact from Nizar Rayan appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 9 January 2009 (check views). A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2009/January.

sourcing

This page requires external references from news agencies. I have notified the page creatorAstral highway (talk) 14:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I've added source but we need to find some biographical information.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 15:10, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Political leader?

This article describes him as a political leader. Brian Pearson (talk) 14:57, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Although that one headline calls him a political leader, there doesn't seem be any evidence that he was any sort of politician. Hamas was the political leaders in Gaza at the time he was killed, and the fact that he wasn't even part of the political system then, shows that he was not a politician.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 18:50, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Addendum: The updated headline changed, and "political" was removed. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it is much improved and expanded. I think the "political leader" part probably originated from an Arabic paper, which softened it a bit. Brian Pearson (talk) 02:39, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

He is also generally not referred to as a military commander. He is generally referred to as one of the top Hamas leaders, and as liaison between Hamas's political and military wings. So I made those changes.Haberstr (talk) 21:15, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

killed his children

Did he really kill his children? I take away that section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.217.21.10 (talk) 18:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

According to the Jerusalem Post, a reliable source, he sent his son a suicide mission. That seems to satisfy "killing his children". He also presumably indoctrinated his young teen son with the importance of killing one's self and killing others that are of not Muslim faith. In addition, it has been reported that before bombing the building, the Israelis warned his family members to leave the building. If they did not leave the building after being warned, it can be assumed that he forced them to stay. Either to ensure that they won't bomb the building or to raise the body count to gain international sympathy or just because he thought they should all die as martyrs. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 18:29, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with this category. Assuming anything is not a good idea and since he didn't directly kill his children, we should leave it out.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 18:31, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

One doesn't have to "directly kill his child" to be considered in Category:Parents who killed their children. If a parent tells his young child to jump off a roof the parent would be included in the cat.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 18:43, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Under this logic, could a parent who tells their child to join the military also be included? Also, the death of his family members is totally irrelevant to the allegation of killing his children, as no one can prove why the family stayed until the IDF bombed the house. Basically, it cannot be assumed that he forced his family to do anything.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 20:52, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

There's an obvious difference between going on a military mission in which the goal is to ultimately survive and a suicide mission in which the goal is to ultimately die. I am not really arguing for the cat's inclusion based on the fact that his family did not leave after being warned. At the end of the day, although there's a strong assumption that they were forced to stay, it's unsupported by a source (and unlikely to be ever supported). My main argument for the cat's inclusion is the fact that he sent one of his 17 children on a suicide mission. I'm not saying that every single time a father sends his son on a suicide mission it should automatically be considered filicide. It really depends on the circumstances. Most of the suicide bombers are pre-adults that were obviously indoctrinated in fanaticism. It's analogous to a parent telling a kid, who has not formed his own mental capacity, to jump off the roof. In addition, some of the suicide bombers were sent on missions with the threat "kill or you'll be killed anyway." --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:06, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

update: I reinserted the cat after finding a reliable source, the New York Daily News, that states that he purposefully stayed in the building with his children after being warned of the impending bombing. See --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:13, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Again, it still doesn't stand up. How about we create a category for Category:People killed along with their children or Category:Families killed by the Israel Defense Forces? It is a POV claim that stretches what the category really is for.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 00:17, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I would support this article's inclusion into both of those cats. To explain by way of analogy, suppose two houses are burning on both sides of a father's house. The father's kids are inside, yet he tells them that they cannot leave. Surely, the father is murdering his children.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:21, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it is not the same. The article says he refused to leave his house, but does not indicate why his family did not leave. Assuming that he forced his family to stay under certain death is accurate, as his family could also have wanted to stay. Without knowing what they wanted, we cannot include the category.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 01:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

But the article says that he sacrificed his children, not that the children decided to sacrifice themselves. This can only mean one thing, he made then stay. Even if not for the source saying that it was he that did the sacrificing, it is clear from the circumstances. Sources differ about the exact amount, but he had in between 12 and 17 children. Some of them were obviously toddlers that could not decide on their own that they would like to be martyrs. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:46, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Do you have another source which states that he "sacrificed" his children? I wonder if that source is entirely reliable.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 14:21, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

According to the New York Daily News WP article, it's the fifth-most circulated newspaper in the US. I wouldn't rely on one newspaper either if the assertion was not so strongly supported by the facts. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 14:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

It is also a tabloid which sensationalizes the news. Citing this as the lone source for the assertion is like citing the National Enquirer or any other tabloid.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 15:09, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

No. The Daily News is far from the National Enquirer.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:10, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Thomas macmillan. The viewpoint of one source should not be given such prominence. Note that other sources indicate that reports that he was warned were not confirmed by the Israeli military when asked. I am going through the articles one by one and will place the relevant text for each newspaper in footnotes so that it will be clear what each is saying. We should represent all the different viewpoints on the issue and not pick one we like and just go with it. Tiamut 15:17, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Brewcrewer, would you mind cutting and pasting the direct quote from the article you link to above that says what you are saying? I can't find it anywhere in the article, nor in any of the others currently cited. Accordingly, I've removed the statement about "sacrifice" from the article. Tiamut 15:57, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Sure. It's in the first paragraph of the Daily News linked above. " top Hamas terror leader sacrificed himself - and at least four of his children - in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home."

"Killing" or "sacrificing" his children is kind of melodramatic and unencyclopedic, even if it's stated by a source. It suffices to say that he kept them with him even under the threat of being bombed. Obviously, though, if he was going to make himself and his family sitting ducks, the Israeli military was only too happy to oblige his apparent desire for martyrdom. Baseball Bugs 16:21, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

You're statement is a bit ambiguous. It gives the impression that you're claiming the Israelis wanted to kill his children. Surely that's not what you meant. Admittedly, "sacrificing" is not encyclopedic, but "killing" is. Alternatively, we can just directly quote the Daily News statement. In any case, it's important that this information is inserted in the encyclopedia. Not many bios here at WP include the fact that the subject placed his little children under a bomb to advance a religious/nationalistic cause. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:45, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

To repeat myself, the IDF killed he and his family with a bomb, so they are culpable for the deaths much more than he is. Secondly, if you can find a few reliable sources which claim what the Daily News does, then we can talk, but it isn't acceptable to make such a contentious claim based on the claim of a tabloid style newspaper.--Thomas.macmillan (talk) 14:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

What exactly is your stance? That he was never warned by the IDF? Multiple reliable sources and a Hamas spokesperson say that he was warned to evacuate but chose not to. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Rayan or Rayyan

Although this is no big deal, I think the latter is better since it is likely to be closer to the original Arabic. Double letters do occur in Arabic and are pronounced separately. It is also the spelling used by BBC. PatGallacher (talk) 00:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Per WP:NACWP:NC, we have to use the name that is most recognized and used in the english-speaking word. Rayan gets more then double the ghits then Rayyan. Admittedly the BBC uses Rayyan, but the vast majority of english language reliable sources use the more anglicized term, Rayan. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 00:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Be that as it may, what on earth has this to do with non-administrative closure? PatGallacher (talk) 00:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I just fixed the link. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:05, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Arabic name

What about adding the Arabic name? نزار ريان

Sure, go ahead. I can't do it, I know zilch Arabic.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how, either. I just figured out his Arab name from the Arab paper, using Google to translate. I might be able to look at some other sites to see how it's inserted, but not for a few days. Brian Pearson (talk) 03:48, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I reformatted the thread so that to capture the attention of someone knows Arabic. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:51, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

"...he's a Palestinian for Christ's sake"?

I thought he was Muslim. When did he convert? Baseball Bugs 16:28, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what you're referring to. Obviously, he was both. Superm401 - Talk 16:49, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm referring to this rather offensive edit summary: Baseball Bugs 16:56, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

This is the intended link. I'm not either sure what was so upsetting, especially since, imo, it was correct. His ethnicity was "Arab", not "Palestinian". The latter is a county of origin, not an ethnicity. I'm therefore correcting the infobox to it's original state. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

He self-identified as a Palestinian. I think it's odd that peopple would prefer to omit that part of his identity when he was clearly an ardent Palestinian nationalist. It's directly relevant to his involvement in this conflict. I support ThomasMacMillam's edit removing "ethnicity"="Arab" and replacing it with "citizenship"="Palestinian" as an acceptable compromise that should take care of any objections claiming Palestinian is not an ethnicity, which it is, but that's a whole other debate best avoided here for now. Tiamut 01:23, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

information regarding other people that were killed

This article is a biography of Nizar Rayan and should include all information regarding his life story. People that were killed at the same time as him or on the same day as him are of no relevance to his life story. In addition, its insertion into this article might violate WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV (see also WP:COATRACK). The proper home for information regarding other deaths are at 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict. Thus, I am removing the sentence which discusses other deaths that are not in anyway connected to his life story.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You actually removed the fact that the Israeli bomb killed his two wives and many of his children? It's plainly a major part of how the story of how his life ended, and a major part of the 'personal' side of his story.Haberstr (talk) 21:19, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

It is a major part of his life story and the article of course states that he was killed along with most of his family. But it's irrelevant to his bio that other non-relatives were killed within the same vicinity. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:12, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Prefacing sentences with its source

This article would look silly if each sentence is prefaced with its source. It lacks prose and is not a MOS that is used at WP. Admittedly, a preface is required for certain occasions, where a POV news source like Al-Jazeera or Arutz Sheva is making a claim unsupported by other sources. But if it's a mainstream source like the International Herald Tribune or CNN a preface is not needed. We are writing an encyclopedia article, not a legal brief.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

multiple reliable sources and the Hamas spokesperson state that Rayan was warned

and nobody claims otherwise. The only point of contradiction is exactly he was warned. According to some sources he was warned via text message, according to others he was called an half an hour before, and according to others he was warned with a warning missile. Therefore, we don't need full sentences about the sources for each claim and we surely don't need full sentences regarding the sources of the sources. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 05:01, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

When was he warned, and what was the content of the warning? How often are the warnings false warnings? How often have false warnings gotten people killed? In any case, the entire 'warning issue' belongs elsewhere. This piece is supposed to be about Rayyan, not how excellent and moral Israel is in how it kills Hamas's leadership.Haberstr (talk) 21:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

The article is about him so if he was warned before the bombing, the article should say so.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Reuters ref supports fact that he sent his son on a suicide mission

Page 3 of the article states that "The bearded Rayyan, who mentored suicide bombers and sent one of his sons on a "martyrdom" mission". --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

killed two settlers or two israelis

None of the sources support the claim that he killed two settlers. Although the murder took place in a settlement he could have killed two random Israelis who happened to be there at the time. It is unlikely that he verified the political views of the people he murdered before murdering them. The sentence already says that the murder took place in a settlement. That suffices. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Questionable statement

This is quite questionable According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children – in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home." He put nearby civilians at risk as well.

I agree and Brewcrewer, you shouldn't have included this statement per the discussion above.--TM 14:16, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

The conversation above really revolved around Category:Parents who killed their children, which has been removed from the article. We can't really withhold a reliable source's statement because of it's strong viewpoint. As a compromise, instead of stating it as a matter of fact, I prefaced the statement with the source and just cited the source directly. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 19:20, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Jeffrey Golberg not RS

Jeffrey Goldberg is a right-wing columnist and not a reliable news/information source. We need to edit accordingly.Haberstr (talk) 21:25, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I support your edit wherein you have attributed the information he has provided directly to him. Tiamut 01:20, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Category:Palestinian terrorists

This issue might be better discussed at the category's talkpage, but Category:Hamas members does not necessarily include Palestinian terrorists. Hamas is now the governing entity of Gaza. So although at one point all Hamas members can correctly be a subcat of Palestinian terrorists, now being a Hamas member could just mean that they are part of the government, but they are not necessarily terrorists. I'm actually surprised there actually is a Category:Palestinian terrorists due to Misplaced Pages's general aversion to these terms, but once it's used it should probably be added to this article. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:27, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

For example, Ahmed Yousef is a Hamas member, but there's nothing to say that he's a Palestinian terrorist. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:40, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I was also surprised to see that "terrorist" is a phrase used in categories, since it is completely subjective. But alas, they've gone to CFD a number of times, overturned on review and then no consenus, so it is quite controversial. Anyway, so long as Category:Hamas members is a subcategory of Palestinian terrorists, then he should be in Hamas members and not Palestinian terrorists per WP:CAT--TM 21:09, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, but being included in subcategory doesn't necessarily mean that it should not be included in its parent cat as well. Especially when it makes sense to be categorized as both, such as in this case. See Misplaced Pages:Categorization and subcategories. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Changes proposed by User:Haberstr

User:Haberstr is proposing a number of changes to this article. Let's discuss them piecemeal.

Order in lede

User:Haberstr is proposing to change

He was a top clerical authority in the Islamic organization, and served as liaison between Hamas's political leadership and its military wing. He was killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on his house during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.

to:

He served as liaison between Hamas's political leadership and its military wing and was a top clerical authority in the Islamic organization. He was killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on his house during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.

I think the original version is better because it makes more sense to have his greater claims of notability listed before his lesser claims to notability. He is more notable for being "a top clerical authority" then a "liason". --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I disagree; he's known worldwide primarily as a Hamas leader; his status within Hamas as a clerical authority (or as 'an influential figure' or however you'd describe it), if he really had such a status (Hamas has no official position called "top clerical authority"), was unofficial. But this is not a big deal, and if you'd like it the other way around, fine.Haberstr (talk) 05:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, after looking at the usual references to him in the various mainstream (Guardian, NYTimes, Independent, AP, Haaretz and so on) obituaries, his status as a liason between the political and military sides of Hamas definitely seems the main focus. some obituaries don't even mention his supposed status as a main clerical authority within Hamas. I really don't see why you put the clerical thing first.Haberstr (talk) 19:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

"dropped" or "strike"

In the lede, User:Haberstr is proposing to change "killed by an Israeli missile strike" to "killed by an Israeli bomb dropped on his house". I think the original version is better because it is more concise and more in-line with the nomenclature of the reliable sources describing the incident. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 17:56, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Haberstr (talk) 05:11, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

'Personal life and background' changes made by User:Haberstr

Here's how I've changed this section as of 2/23/09 ((Stuff within double parentheses added)):

Personal life and background

((PARAGRAPH 1: Note that this intro paragraph includes educational and personal details, and the barebones of his professional/clerical career.))Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip on March 6, 1959. He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Omdurman Islamic University in Sudan. Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher, including at Imad Aqil Mosque in Jabaliya, where Rayan had returned to live. He would eventually marry four women with whom he had at least eleven children: Aya, Halima, Aicha, Maryam, Zeinab, Assaad, Ossman Bin Zaid, Reem, Abdul Rahman, Abdul Qader, Ghassan, and two more children under 5; all of Rayan's wives and nine of his children died in the Israeli missile attack that killed him.

((PARAGRAPH 2: Coherence: All of this paragraph is about his clerical status and career. Note addition of the word "arguably" because whether Rayan was in fact Hamas' topc clerical authority is speculation.))Rayan became a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip. After an Israeli missile strike killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan arguably came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority. He had a 5,000-book library in his basement, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad).

((PARAGRAPH 3: Coherence: All of this paragraph is military and suicide bombing stuff about Rayan. Note that speculation that Rayan 'enjoyed' going on patrol with his men is removed.))Rayan regularly went on patrol with Hamas militia after delivering lectures at the Islamic University. Rayan mentored suicide bombers. In 2001, he sent his 22-year-old son on a suicide bombing mission, which killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip. Rayan is alleged to have directed and financed the 2004 Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people. Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel in 2005, but Rayan advocated for their renewal in response to the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict.

((PARAGRAPH 4: Coherence: All of this is the 'Battle of Gaza' and its repercussions.))Rayan was one of the principal architects of the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which between 116 and 400 Fatah and Hamas militia and civilians were killed and Hamas and Fatah are accused of torturing members of the other party. According to a Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes. He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."

((PARAGRAPH 5: Coherence: All of this paragraph is about Rayan's attitude toward Israel.))Rayan was fundamentally opposed to the state of Israel. He proclaimed, "True Islam would never allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."

((PARAGRAPH 6: Coherence: All of this paragraph is about Rayan's opinions on Jews. Note attribution of speculation by Goldberg. If he were a news reporter rather than a pro-Israel columnist (I believe he's a former member of the IDF)), the attribution would not be necessary.))According to writer Jeffrey Goldberg, Rayan believed that Jews are a "cursed people" and some were transformed into pigs and apes by Allah, and that Jews must pay for murdering the prophets of Islam and "closing ears to the Messenger of Allah."

Here's how you've repeatedly reverted the section:

Personal life and background

((PARAGRAPH 1: Note that this intro paragraph includes educational and personal details, and details on the clerical jobs he held, and how he liked to go out on patrol with his men, and how big his library is. That makes an incoherent paragraph.))Rayan was born in Jabalia, Gaza Strip on March 6, 1959. He attended universities in Saudi Arabia and Jordan, completing his PhD in Islamic studies at the Omdurman Islamic University in Sudan. Rayan then returned to the Gaza Strip and was employed in several mosques as a preacher, before becoming a professor of Islamic law at the Islamic University in the Gaza Strip. Rayan enjoyed going out on patrol with the militants after delivering lectures. He had a 5,000-book library in his basement, and was a leading authority on Hadith (sayings of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). He was married to four women with whom he had at least eleven children.

((PARAGRAPH 2: This paragraph is incoherent, mixing a detail about his clerical career with an important detail about his son as a suicide bomber. It is POV to label his mosque as the "Mosque of Martyrs" without clarifying what it's official name is.))An influential preacher at what is known in Jabalia as the "Mosque of martyrs", Rayan mentored suicide bombers. In 2001, he sent his own 22-year old son on a suicide mission, which also killed two Israelis at the former Israeli settlement Elei Sinai in the Gaza Strip.

((PARAGRAPH 3: Again, incoherent; a detail about suicide bombing (it is POV not to include why and when he advocated the renewal of suicide bombings, by the way) with something about clerical career within Hamas, then back to suicide attacks.))After Hamas ceased deploying suicide bombers against Israel in 2005, Rayan advocated for their renewal. When the Israeli military killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin in 2004, Rayan came to be considered Hamas' top clerical authority. Rayan directed and financed the Ashdod Port attack, which killed ten people.

((PARAGRAPH 4: This paragraph is coherent. Note how I've eliminated the POV number of dead in exchange for the range of estimates available. I also eliminated the POV certainty that Hamas was maiming and torturing and added balance, that both sides accuse the other of such actions.))Rayan was one of the principal architects behind the 2007 Battle of Gaza, in which 400 Palestinian Fatah party members were killed and dozens more Palestinians were tortured and maimed. According to an Hamas spokesperson, it's possible that the Palestinian National Authority asked Israel to kill Rayan due to his role in the Hamas-Fatah clashes. He added that Rayan was one of the main reasons why many of Mahmoud Abbas's men "did not sleep well at night."

((PARAGRAPH 5: Coherent; I don't think I changed this paragraph.))Rayan was fundamentally opposed to the state of Israel. He proclaimed, "True Islam would never allow a Jewish state to survive in the Muslim Middle East. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God."

((PARAGRAPH 6: Coherent; added source of this opinion, since it is a strong POV source.))Rayan believed that Jews are a "cursed people" and some were transformed into pigs and apes by Allah. He also believed that Jews must pay for murdering prophets of Islam and "closing ears to the Messenger of Allah."

'Israeli attack' changes made by User:Haberstr

Haberstr version:

Israeli attack

Rayan was killed in an Israeli Air Force strike on 1 January 2009 during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict. A one-ton bomb was dropped on his home killing Rayan, his four wives, and 11 of their children.

Unlike other Hamas leaders at risk of being targeted by Israel, Rayan did not go into hiding after the armed conflict with Israel began in late December. Also, the IDF may have warned Rayan, by contacting his cell phone, that an attack was imminent. However, an Israeli military spokesperson "could not give details or specify whether Rayyan's family had been warned."

According to the Israeli government, Rayan's house served as an arms and ammunition warehouse and as a Hamas communications center at the time of the attack. The Israeli military said that the many secondary explosions were triggered by the weapons stockpile stored within his house. According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children - in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home." He put nearby civilians to risk as well.

Rayan was the most senior Hamas member killed since Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was killed in Israeli airstrikes in 2004. Hamas said that Israel would pay a "heavy price" for his death.

Brewcrewer version:

Israeli attack

Rayan was preaching in a local mosque the day before he was killed and declared: "Our only language with the Jew is through the gun". He also appeared on Al-Aqsa TV proclaiming, "God willing, the evil state, the Jewish state will not break the resistance.

Rayan was killed in an Israeli Air Force strike on 1 January 2009 during the 2008–2009 Israel-Gaza conflict. A one-ton bomb was dropped on his home killing Rayan, his four wives, and 11 of their children.

Rayan did not take security precautions despite the fact that Hamas figures were at risk of being assassinated. While most of Hamas' leaders went into hiding after the Israeli operation began in December, Rayan chose to stay at home.

The IDF warned Rayan, by contacting his cell phone, that an attack was imminent and urged him to evacuate his family, but he refused to leave, and did not allow his family to leave. According to the New York Daily News, Rayan "sacrificed his children - in a vain attempt to protect a weapons cache beneath his home." He put nearby civilians to risk as well.

The Israeli military often contacts Gazans, either by telephone or flier, and warns when attacks are imminent ("Roof knocking"). However, an Israeli military spokesperson "could not give details or specify whether Rayyan's family had been warned."

According to the Israeli government, Rayan's house served as an arms and ammunition warehouse and as a Hamas communications center at the time of the attack. The Israeli military said that the many secondary explosions were triggered by the weapons stockpile stored within his house.

Rayan was the most senior Hamas member killed since Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi was killed in Israeli airstrikes in 2004. Hamas said that Israel would pay a "heavy price" for his death.

Haberstr (talk) 21:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Discussion format

It would be much more conducive for collaboration if instead of making large chunk changes the editors make changes piece by piece. It is easier to figure out what each other are doing. Thanks, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 06:00, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Also, please notice that the article is very different from my version prior to your edits. I purposefully made the changes piecemeal so that if you have specific objections to the article, you don't have to revert the whole thing back to your version. You can just point to specific changes that you find problematic. Best, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 07:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

It would've been conducive to collaboration if you'd made a single comment on the very detailed explanations above of the changes I made. By the way, shouldn't we consider more than 4 references for a mundane fact overkill? That certainly mucks up the look of the article.Haberstr (talk) 07:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Which "very detailed explanation" and which specific fact do you think is over-referenced?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:47, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Brewcrewer's anti-Rayan attack page

• Note the comment below is addressed to Brewcrewer, whose name I have removed from this title, per WP:TALK. Tiamut 03:13, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

You've reconstructed your anti- Rayan attack page, removing all the balance I've supplied. You're an ideologue clearly on a mission and I will have to revert. I _will_ add the Reuters info about his suicide bomber mentoring somewhere, however, but I'll have to make it accord with Reuters, not indicating that he was mentoring in the mosque. See how I'm trying to be inclusive? I hope my approach will someday be a model for your approach; until that day, please go to a POV-driven site and stay off wikipedia.Haberstr (talk) 20:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC) I also added the info from the Guardian that he was ARGUABLY the leading Hamas clerical figure.Haberstr (talk) 20:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Attacking me in a section header and telling me to "stay off wikipedia" is least conducive to a collaborative effort, which is what we do around here. I urge you to redact the more belligerent elements of your comment/diatribe. If you think the article should treat him more like a martyr, that's fine, but please discuss your opinions in civil manner on this talkpage. Thanks, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 21:52, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

It's clear what your agenda is, you did not discuss a single one of the multiple changes you made, and the header is completely accurate.Haberstr (talk) 22:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm kinda hoping you can show make some sort of good-will effort here to reestablish that your an editor that one can collaborative with. I'm not sure which specific edit lacks discussion. Is there a thread on this page that I have ignored? See also WP:BRD, which requires that the "changer" discuss his changes if they're not accepted. The article was clearly stable before you happened across the article and turned it into a battleground. I've went out of my way to discuss things on the talkpage; just peruse the talkpage and see this. Falsely accusing me of not discussing changes on the talkpage is a further violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Again, please cease your attacks. Best, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:15, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm certain of your "I want to create an anti-Nizar Rayan attack page" goals, and your edits make that clear to any Misplaced Pages editor who visits here with an open mind. It's essentially just you and me here, and I can't be in consensus with your desire to create an attack page. If someone unbiased looks at the page I've created -- and it's clear from this talk page that I attempted to get a response from you on every single change but you didn't give a single comment -- they'll say it looks balanced and encyclopedic in the form I made it, and looks like an attack page in the form you want it to be in.Haberstr (talk) 15:29, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I was the second person to edit this article. It sounds to me like you should request arbitration. What do you think?--TM 20:32, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we need arbitration. All of Haberstr's changes are well-sourced and policy compliant. If Brewcrewer could isolate his problems with the changes and explain them to other editors so that we can work towards compromise formulations, that would be great. Reverting all of Habrstr's changes and insisting he do them one by one is unfair. He is using the same sources Brewcrewer has and his changes are welcome (at least to me). They attribute controversial statements directly to their authors and improve NPOV, which was sorely lacking prior to his intervention. If Brewcrewer or Tundrabuggy can be specific about what is objectionable in what he has done before reverting again, that would help to calm things down. Tiamut 01:19, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

See WP:BRD. The article was stable prior to Haberster's mass changes to the article. He has to bring his proposed changes to this talkpage. So far he hasn't. All he's done so far is attack me. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Brewcrewer, read BRD again. It does not excuse what you are doing. Please identify which parts of Haberstr's edits, (and my own and those of TM which you have also reverted in your last edit here) are problematic to you. Making wholesale reverts and refusing to discuss your reverts and identify which parts of the edit are problematic is tendentious editing. Please collaborate with your fellow editors. I left this article months ago because you seemed incapable of allowing others to make any changes not to your liking. Please review WP:OWN and note that at least three editors here like Haberstr's version, as they have built upon it. You and Tundrabuggy need to explain what you don't like about it so that we can work to address your concerns. Reverting and insisting that others explain everything they are doing goes against WP:BOLD and is a waste of time for all involved. Thanks. Tiamut 03:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I actually did state all my issues with his changes in edit summaries. Look at the contrib history. He has done neither. No edit summaries and no talkpage comments besides copy and pasting his version vs. my version and attacking me. Tiamut: I would love to work with you. A breath of fresh air. But let's bring non-minor contentious changes to the talkpage before dong anything drastic to an article that has been stable for months. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:29, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Addendum: a couple of sections above I actually went out of my way to initiate a thread on his proposed changes. The the interactions at those threads were fine. But if I'm not in a benevolent mood, I can't be expected to initiate threads on anther editor's proposed changes. He wants to make changes, let him initiate a thread. How it's done is clearly templated above. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:49, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Brewcrewer, with all due respect, working with you is not as pleasurable from my end. Almost every edit I made to this article months ago was reverted or rejected by you, and I simply gave up and went away. I don't have time to argue in circles. In this edit, you have tossed out a number of good changes and sourced additions made by Haberstr, TM and myself, without explaining what your problem with these changes is. You need to isolate the problems you have, we cannot read your mind. Please go through the diff I have provided and explain why each change was rejected by you. Without such an explanation, the text in question should be restored. We cannot open an RfC or move to mediation when it is not even clear what the problem you and Tundrabuggy have with the changes that have been made. You two do not own this article, so please work with me, if it is indeed true that this is something you would love to do. Tiamut 13:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC) Tiamut 13:41, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I have agreed with some of your edits and disagreed with some of your edits just like Haberstr. I find it pleasurable to work with someone who agrees with me on some points and disagrees with me on other points. But that's only me. The link that you present removed material that I previously for which I gave a basis in previous edit summaries. I would explain my reasoning on this talk but, despite my begging, the proponent of the contentions text refuses to initiate a discussion at this talk page.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 13:49, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

removal of "mentored suicide bombers"

This edit inexplicably removed the fact that he "mentored suicide bombers" together with its source, Reuters. Please revert. Thanks, --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 22:51, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

No it didn't, it moved it to a more logical location in the text.Haberstr (talk) 15:25, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh you hid it there by the Chris Hedgens quote. But Chris Hedgens never said that, a Reuters writer made that assertion.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:00, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I thought it would be appropriate to add the thing about him having sent his own kid off to be a suicide bomber. It is mentioned in at least two of the sources, so is notable. It is also an unusual fact, thank heavens! I think we should put the word "mentored" in quotes since it is actually a word used in the source and very specific in meaning. Tundrabuggy (talk) 05:17, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference nydn was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. Cite error: The named reference AP was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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