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Revision as of 23:01, 17 March 2009 by Maxschmelling (talk | contribs) (→Support: +support)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)
This specific proposal is described here. It uses flagged revisions but is not the same.
Please note: This is for a two-month trial only.
Discussion on comments · Support · Oppose · Neutral · Voting is evil

Discussion on comments

What about having comment-less votes similar to the recent CU / OS elections? Comments can go up here (or this section can be moved to the bottom). Thoughts? --MZMcBride (talk) 19:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

That would be good, if this was moved to the bottom. –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I think we should allow comments with the votes for now. It gives useful feedback, and in case serious problems with the proposal are discovered this poll might be closed and a new one started after modifying the proposal. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there a set timeframe for this poll? I think there probably should be, so that it doesn't go on for some ridiculous amount of time. A week, maybe? There's been so much attention already that it shouldn't take long. Maybe a month? –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

A week seems reasonable, esp. for just a trial. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
We need to get a watchlist notice for this poll and I would say giving it one week from the time that the watchlist notice goes up seems reasonable. Davewild (talk) 20:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
A bit longer would be fair, at least it shouldn't be closed as successful too early. Implementing something that people haven't got a chance to comment on will create a backlash. We could ask the developers to start looking into the technical implementation aspects before we reach a final decision though. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Watchlist notices should be discussed at MediaWiki talk:Watchlist-details, though in my opinion a notice is overkill for just a trial and should not be done. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
(@ Apoc) I would agree were this a discussion on full implementation, but this is just a two month trial. Do we really need to take a month to poll for a two month trial...? :) –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The last poll was also for a trial and had 720 votes in total. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, and that poll had a fairly large majority of supporters. This poll is just on one implementation of the result of that poll. –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Support

  1. Support {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 17:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  2. Strong support. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  3. Support, as proposer. Cenarium (talk) 17:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  4. –Juliancolton 17:49, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  5. Strong support. Opens Misplaced Pages up by augmenting (and ultimately I suspect, replacing) our existing protection tools, and gives a non-intrusive means to monitor our BLP violations specifically. How could I oppose such an expansive improvement to our open editing model? Fritzpoll (talk) 17:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  6. Support flagged protection and patrolled revisions, as long as most any established editor (something like 500+ constructive edits over a few weeks) can apply for gaining "reviewer" rights, unless there's some obvious reason why they shouldn't (e.g. a recent block), and as long as the patrolled revisions are basically unseen to the reader. I don't like the idea of having only "reviewed" or "sighted" version visible by default to users not logged in, but having flags that users can make use of to track an article's accuracy would be a great idea. –Drilnoth (T • C) 17:51, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    As I understand it, the patrolled revisions are entirely passive - it won't affect the front page view, but will give a stream of revisions for us to check in the background, separate from the RC feed. Fritzpoll (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Awesome. Then this is a Full support. –Drilnoth (T • C) 18:35, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    That's not what the proposal currently says, Fritz. -- Kendrick7 19:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Yes it is. The patrolled revisions are passive, the flagged protection is active. You've not quite read this, have you?  :) Fritzpoll (talk) 20:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  7. Support a trial. I have reservations about flagged protection but let's see how it goes for a couple of months. Tempshill (talk) 17:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    What could be a problem with flagged protection? It doesn't look to me like it will restrict anything, really, just add more options to allow other users the chance to edit pages (with approval, for full protection or non-autoconfirmed users). –Drilnoth (T • C) 17:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Don't worry about Tempshill's doubts unless he opposes the trial. Wanting proof that something works in practice is a natural reaction. {{Nihiltres|talk|log}} 18:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  8. Strong support - This clearly, for anyone that bothered to actually read it, allows more people to edit than the current system allows while also stepping up protection for articles which is beyond necessary for our BLPs at this point. لennavecia 17:56, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  9. Support. I voted against the previous trial proposal, but this is good. Not perfect, but good. --Apoc2400 (talk) 18:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  10. Flagged protection offers better editing rights while still being able to protect our BLPs. Sceptre 18:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Incidentally, I support the notion of enabling the surveyor right on this, which can edit/validate full-flagged pages immedately, and can (if it's not set up to do so automatically) promote people to reviewer. Sceptre 18:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  11. Support anything that moves us closer to a flagged system. -- Bastique 18:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  12. Support for the sixth time. How did Bullwinkle put it? Right. "This time, for sure! Presto!" - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 18:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  13. Support. This is a step forward.--Pharos (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  14. Support. I don't want full on flagged revisions for all of wikipedia, but have it like semi and full protection. Deavenger (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  15. Support excellent idea, will vastly improve the effectiveness of RC patrol and open up semiprotected pages without restricting the ability to edit pages. Hut 8.5 19:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  16. Support A trial especially, but in general better attempts at regulating potentially bad edits. And I'd hope unlike a couple of the below posters that most people actually take the time to see just what it being 'voted' on here. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 19:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  17. Support. This is a step forward. - WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  18. Support No harm in a trial. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 19:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  19. People's lives are more important than some stupid lousy catchphrase. Anyone can edit, hahaha. Majorly talk 19:12, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    This attitude doesn't really help building consensus here. --Apoc2400 (talk) 19:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    What kind of attitude? Majorly gave his opinion that people's real lives are more important than retaining the phrase "anyone can edit". A perfectly reasonable opinion, at that. –Juliancolton 21:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  20. Support this important first step. Cool Hand Luke 19:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  21. Support. The Misplaced Pages, the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit slogan is already not valid, as we routinely block and ban people who cannot behave. I am for full implementation of flagged revisions, and I suggest that all who oppose are going to do all the vandalism fighting. It is time to do something sensible. -- Kim van der Linde 19:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  22. Support. A small step, but an important one, in the right direction. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  23. Support Although it doesn't go far enough for my tastes. And I sincerely hope "the 💕 that anyone can edit" brigade go bankrupt when they are dragged through the courts one day GTD 19:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    This would actually open the project up to new lawsuits, since content would be approved by admins, who are essentially unpaid staff of the foundation. Once we're no longer a freely editable host of user content, we lose the legal protections that come with merely hosting online information. -- Kendrick7 19:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Which is exactly what I want to see. If real world people are being harmed, they should be allowed to seek recompense from those doing the harming GTD 20:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    You got the unpaid part right, but the rest is off the mark as the Foundation is not involved in selecting the admin, the reviewers, the content, any more now than before. Rather we have a better chance that problems will be discovered. FloNight♥♥♥ 20:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  24. Support a trial with this criteria. FloNight♥♥♥ 19:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  25. Support. Glad the details have been hammered out. Looking forward to the repercussions. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  26. Support Not nearly as good as semi-protection of all BLPs and liberal use of full protection but a small step in the right direction. EconomicsGuy (talk) 20:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  27. Support Yep. Any advance in the correct direction is better than nothing. SBHarris 20:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  28. Support I don't think this goes far enough, but we have to take the first step. Kevin (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  29. Support shoy (reactions) 20:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  30. Just do it already. And, opposers, get over the "💕 that anyone can edit" stuff. That day passed a while ago. BLPs deserve more effective protective measures... this is a good start and yes, it's on "dangerous" path to more rigorous protective measures... the only danger in that "dangerous" path is not taking it. ++Lar: t/c 20:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  31. Support a trial using this policy.--Iner22 (talk) 20:43, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  32. Support we should at least try. Schutz (talk) 20:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  33. Support as a trial only. Not a substitute for semi-protection of all BLPs. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  34. Support, and I opposed every previous flagged revisions proposal. - Rjd0060 (talk) 21:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  35. Support Obviously. MBisanz 21:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  36. Support BJ 21:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  37. Support We need to grown up, innocence is over :( -- lucasbfr 21:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  38. Support. Though I voted in support of flagged revisions, this proposal is much better. Bsimmons666 (talk) 21:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  39. Support. This specific proposal makes Misplaced Pages more open, full stop. Although we may want to use flagged revisions more aggressively in the future (and indeed, I hope that it's feasible to do so), that will require consensus. Slippery slope arguments are unconvincing.--ragesoss (talk) 21:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  40. Support - Hopefully this will let us reduce the number of BLP violations without any significant negative effects. –Megaboz (talk) 21:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  41. Support While I still strongly believe that the best option for Misplaced Pages is to just disable anonymous editing and require users to get a free account to edit, every time I bring that up, a slew of editors keep bringing up WP:PERENNIAL. This proposal seems like it might actually work to protect the integrity of articles while not overburdening editors with too much bureaucratic duties. I support giving this a trial. Dr. Cash (talk) 22:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  42. Support Merely one step in the right direction. Misplaced Pages needs to take more steps in the same direction to protect both the subjects of the BLPs, the contributors to the relevant articles, and itself. I sincerely hope that it does. Time to abandon cheap and snappy slogans like the "💕 that anyone can edit (which has not been true for a long time anyway), and face up to the fact that hard critical thinking about the issues involved is needed and cannot be ignored by merely trotting out such slogans.  DDStretch  (talk) 22:48, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  43. Support I was opposed to the generic "shall we try flagged revs" but this seems like an appropriately controlled experiment with a reasonably high chance of improving the encyclopedia. Well done. xschm (talk) 23:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

  1. Strong oppose Flagged protection is a bureaucratic disaster in the making which fundamentally undermines the contention that Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. There's no reason to bother going thru a "trial period" because it is a lousy idea. Furthermore, we just did a poll on this a few months ago where this idea was rejected. So why are we back here again? -- Kendrick7 17:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    When did we have a poll on Flagged protection? Are you sure you're not confusing this with Flagged Revisions? Fritzpoll (talk) 17:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Flagged protection uses similar techniques, but it's very different in spirit from 'classic' flagged revisions. The purpose is to use a flag for pages meeting the requirements of the protection policy, instead of protecting them. It opens up Misplaced Pages, instead of closing it to editing. Patrolled revisions has no effect on the version viewed by readers and is merely an enhanced way to monitor pages, such as low-profile blps. Cenarium (talk) 17:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    What is the difference, really? Too many articles are left protected for too long as it is. This is just getting flagged revisions in by another means. It's even worse -- creating wishy-washy protection means real disputes will never get resolved because there will be no pressure to do so. -- Kendrick7 17:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    It means that everyone can contribute to more articles. If the protection policy applies, this shouldn't happen for longer than it does now, but in the intervening time, everyone, including IPs and newly registered users will be able to suggest edits. Nothing more extensive than that. Fritzpoll (talk) 18:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    It means many pages will simply remain locked in The Wrong Version essentially forever. Editors may already suggest consensus edits via {{edit protected}}. Why complicate a system that is already working well? -- Kendrick7 18:07, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Arguably because it isn't.  :) Fritzpoll (talk) 18:18, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  2. Oppose as unneeded bureaucracy and a dangerous step down the slippery slope towards a full-fledged version of flagged revisions. This nonsense must be stopped in its infancy. Articles should be edited in the now, not through a backlog. Flagged anything undermines the spirit of Misplaced Pages as a free-for-all encyclopedia. ThemFromSpace 18:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Comment: This isn't about flagged revisions... please see my comment for details. –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:05, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  3. Strong oppose. It's been said already, but flagged revisions are not compatible with "the 💕 that anyone can edit". The practical effect will be that IP editors and casual readers are not allowed to fix gross errors (such BLP violations) on a flagged page without getting permission from the regulars, which could result in more damaging BLP violations sticking. Experience with new page patrol flags says this will immediately get backlogged; same deal. At the same time, the current proposal would exempt regulars from any inconvenience related to the proposal - cabalism that will be seen as such by outside editors. We've just been through the Obama incident, complete with a story on Fox News, so it should be plain how easily we can be made vulnerable to assertions of such cabalism. Moreover, the assertion that this would reduce the amount of pages with editing restrictions is troubling doublespeak - flagged protection would surely be used mainly as a "solution" where actual protection is considered infeasible, leading to more restricted pages, not fewer. All in all, even a trial demonstration is likely to be harmful to the wiki. — Gavia immer (talk) 18:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Comment: This isn't about flagged revisions... the "patrolled revisions" feature won't have any effect on a reader of Misplaced Pages. IP contributions to pages (as long as they aren't semi-protected) will be visible immediately. The only significant change is that it will be easier to patrol BLPs and other highly sensitive articles by having a list of edits to them in one place so that the changes can be reviewed. Having the list won't cause the edits not to show up until its reviewed. –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    That's not what the proposal currently says: "version viewed by readers by default is the latest flagged revision." So, no, the edits won't show up until reviewed. -- Kendrick7 19:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    That is for flagged protection, and only applies when IPs edit semi-protected pages or when any non-admin edits a fully protected page. This is explained more fully in the table below; I believe that the sentence that you pointed out is unclear (although correct me if I'm wrong). Autoconfirmed users will still have edits visible immediately in most every circumstance, and the handful of times that they wouldn't would be when editing protected pages. –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    (edit conflict)Righto -I can only comment on the proposal that actually exists, and the proposal that actually exists says that IP edits to pages with flagged protection will not be visible (to actual readers, of which there are many more than the total number of Misplaced Pages editors) until someone makes them visible. And, for the record, if a random IP removes BLP-violating material, and their edit doesn't immediately show up on the article served to actual readers, we have in no sense improved anything; we have made it worse. The fact that we would have a nice report of things made worse is not a compensation. — Gavia immer (talk) 19:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    For flagged protection that is true, IP edits will have to be "reviewed" to be reader-visible on protected pages... but right now, IPs can't edit protected pages at all. It would actually give them more freedom in what they can edit. And patrolled revisions will have no effect on the visibility of edits. ––Drilnoth (T • C) 19:32, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    What I mean to say is that IPs can edit BLPs freely, without the need for a "review", the same way that they do now unless that BLP is protected. –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:33, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Right now, IPs can edit freely on any page that isn't fully protected, semiprotected, or cascade protected (and they can't move move-protected pages or start any new ones). If this proposal is adopted, there would be another new class of pages IPs couldn't edit, at least without getting permission from the regular editors. And patrolled edits do have an effect on the visibility of edits; that's rather the point, that they wouldn't be visible (except to Misplaced Pages's regular editors) without a permission flag (from Misplaced Pages's regular editors). The fact that you and I could see the edit beforehand wouldn't change the fact that everyone else would be served the old version of the page. If the IP edit is a BLP fix, or a vandalism fix, or the like, then choosing not to display their edit, even temporarily, is not acceptable. Requiring them to have such fixes approved is not acceptable either. — Gavia immer (talk) 19:46, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    I'm not quite understanding what you mean by "another class of pages"... only pages that would currently be semi-protected or fully-protected will have flagged protection on them, no other pages. And patrolled revisions doesn't hide edits at all... it just creates a list so that there's another way for Wikipedians to patrol edits to highly sensitive pages and check new edits, reverting them if needed, not to patrol the edits and "approve" them. This isn't flagged revisions... did you read the whole proposal? –Drilnoth (T • C) 19:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    We should admit that flagged protection will probably (eventually) be used on articles that would not currently be semi-protected. An advantage is that edits do eventually get flagged unless they are reverted. Edits won't just go unapproved forever. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:02, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Pardon me for nitpicking a post that generally supports me, but in view of practical experience with new page patrol logs here, and flagged edits on de.wiki, it's likely that some edits will be delayed effectively forever - there's almost certain to be a backlog, and delays of more than a few days, on any article edited heavily enough to warrant restrictions on editing, effectively are forever, if other editors can edit freely in the meantime. — Gavia immer (talk) 20:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    As I understand it there is no branching of the versions. Anyone who wants to edit has to edit the latest draft version. --Apoc2400 (talk) 20:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    That's also my understanding; sorry if I wasn't clear enough. If one editor needs their edits approved, and another does not, and they are both editing the same article, and they happen to disagree - which has been known to happen from time to time, even on articles where there's some sort of dispute - then the editor without flagged editing restrictions has a large advantage, because they can always immediately make their preferred version available - without any action on their part other than to edit - and the editor who's subject to approval of flagged edits cannot. That's bad. We shouldn't pretend that this will never happen. — Gavia immer (talk) 21:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    True, but what really matters is what stays in the end. --Apoc2400 (talk) 21:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    On a semi flagged protected page, an edit by a reviewer, is automatically reviewed only when the previous revision is. Thus if there is a dispute between a reviewer and a non-reviewer, the reviewer will need to manually flag his/her preferred version. However, edits by the non-reviewer will appear in special pages as unreviewed, so other reviewers will notice them, review them, signal the dispute to admins, etc. In those cases, the standard dispute resolution mechanism should be followed, the reviewer status is no exception to 3rr, including flags/deflags, and if s/he 'unreviews' edits by the other user that have been reviewed, it would be an abuse of the privileges. Full flag protection can also be used in those cases, admins only can validate. It has been proposed to reduce the requirements for protection, or to semi-protect all blps in the past. Likewise, it will probably be proposed to reduce the requirements for semi flag protection. But doing so will require community consensus. Cenarium (talk) 22:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    I think the reviewer first flags all edits, so no unflagged edits are present and then makes his or her own edit which will be autoflagged (worst case scenario), or is that prevented ? Mion (talk) 22:16, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    (e/c)You've not understood - BLPs aren't going to be automatically flagged with flagged protection, so IP edits will be immediately visible as they are now. The patrolled revisions flag is passive, and has no effect of the visibility of edits. So the only BLPs where IP corrections won't be visible immediately are those where they cannot currently edit anyway. Fritzpoll (talk) 19:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Of course they will. They risk of getting sued by an LP because we failed to protect their biography sufficiently will eventually mean this new protection will be used on all BLP's by default. -- Kendrick7 20:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    If that was going to happen, wouldn't all BLPs be semi'd or even fully protected already? –Drilnoth (T • C) 20:01, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  4. I'm pretty sure I've explained before why I strongly oppose, and my reasons remain the same. We're barely keeping up with flagged newpages, after all. DS (talk) 21:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  5. Opposed Although I see people above saying it's not flagged revs, essentially it's the same recycled proposal. It still requires someone to flag a revision before it shows up to readers (honestly, nobody else really matters in the discussion). If this is suppose to "replace/succeed" regular protection, then it will have the same pitfalls. Many articles that are hardly watched are currently semi-protected and letting people edit but requiring someone to flag it will have no difference whatsoever. "Full" flagged protection will do nothing to end content disputed except keep the wrong version visible, same as now. Meanwhile, the edit war continues. The idea of full protection is to stop the warring and force them to the talk page. Then there's the extra work this creates: as I understand it we'll still need to revert vandalism but it just won't be "shown", so now we need a user watching a certain page 24/7 just in case an edit needs "approval", which leads to more backlog. Admins will have to deal with the "full" one, and if it's mostly just the admins who currently handle protections then there will be a major backlog there. To say nothing of what happens when it comes to "de-flagging" an article (which I image will gather as a backlog just as semiprotected pages currently do, which currently sits at Fall 2007 for those interested). So there's my little schpeel. -Royalguard11(T) 22:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    Semi-flag-protection instead of semi-protection means that IPs and new users can edit, but it gets delayed. There will be a list of unflagged revisions so it will not take forever. If the backlog keeps growing endlessly, then the trial must be considered a failure. --Apoc2400 (talk) 22:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    This is not intended to replace existing protection, but to provide an alternative. Semi-protection can be used in cases of particularly high levels of vandalism, and full protection in cases of unstoppable edit wars. Although there is little purpose to edit war on a fully flagged protected page, that would be similar to edit war on a draft page. I think full flag protection would help to find a consensual version, but we'll see, this is a trial. If admins have too much work at validating edits, which is similar to make editprotected requests, we can create a usergroup specifically for that. Admins don't have to deal with each edit though, they validate a revision only when there is consensus for it on the talk page, or it's non-controversial. We can set an expiry for flag protection too. Cenarium (talk) 22:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  6. Oppose. I would support patrolled revisions alone, and could be persuaded to support flagged protection for currently protected articles only despite the page locking problem, but I have to oppose the proposal as stated. Certes (talk) 22:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
  7. Oppose I hate the whole concept of Flagged revisions and every aspect of it. Do you really want to volunteer your time to check millions of edits, which are mostly done in good faith? I fear that this trial may evolve into a permanent practice so I must oppose a trail. There are really better substitutes for filtering out bad-faith edits than filtering all edits. -- penubag  (talk) 22:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    "Do you really want to volunteer your time to check millions of edits, which are mostly done in good faith?" Err... isn't that what dozens of people do daily with things like Huggle? Do you think reverting vandalism, spam, and nonsense is a poor use of time? And, eh, a little good faith that when people say it's a trial, it will be a trial, would be nice. --MZMcBride (talk) 22:50, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
    "millions of edits" - how prevalent do you think our protection practices are? Fritzpoll (talk) 22:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Neutral

Voting is evil