Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 91.152.84.165 (talk) at 08:33, 2 April 2009 (→Bäckman-Teinonen relations are not sourced to Kapo). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article was nominated for deletion on 29 March 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep.

Finland Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Finland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Finland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FinlandWikipedia:WikiProject FinlandTemplate:WikiProject FinlandFinland ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Estonia Unassessed

Johan Bäckman is part of WikiProject Estonia, a project to maintain and expand Estonia-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.EstoniaWikipedia:WikiProject EstoniaTemplate:WikiProject EstoniaEstonia ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. To-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : WikiProject Estonia/Missing articles Assess : Rate each tagged article by quality and importance to the WikiProject if it has not been done. (See Category:Unassessed Estonia articles) Infobox : Add infoboxes to articles without it Maintain : Portal:Estonia Photo : Upload and/or add a photo to articles without it (See Category:Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Estonia) Stubs : Add info to stub-articles and check for start-class.

Biography Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Where does the anti-Jakobson stunt go?

Not long ago, Bäckman & co "awarded" Max Jakobson, a highly regarded diplomat with reputation for good undersatnding of history, with the "Year's Misanthrope 2009" award. Where should this be mentioned in the article? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 18:38, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

That would go into Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee, I suppose. Martintg (talk) 19:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Propagandist

Here's an interesting aritcle:

• Õhtuleht 23 September 2008: Johan Bäckman on Vene propagandist

The headline translates as Johan Bäckman is a Russian propagandist, and the article starts by citing Kapo, which is both notable and reliable. Considering the context of this was Bäckman's first publicity stunt -- presentation of his book Pronssisoturi, and thus concerns the very activities that made Bäckman famous, should this be represented in the lead? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 07:03, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Apartheid

While he doesn't discuss Bäckman in specific, Edward Lucas has analysed the claims of an apartheid system in Estonia:

• The Economist 16 August 2007: eSStonia, republished at

Lucas is a specialist in Eastern European affairs and has published a book on Russian political developments. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 07:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Overview

Wow, Bäckman has made a lot of strange claims. Maybe, we should tabulate them for better overview, something like this:

Thoughts? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 11:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The article has been developed quite a bit. As it is, it works quite well. We don't want to over work it. Too many strange claims may saturate a reader's level of incredulity. Martintg (talk) 11:15, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I think sections are not warranted for now, as hardly anything for what he is widely known is uncontroversial and is not activism. The open letter was a direct consequence of the publication of his book and should be in the same section, and the university's response should follow. What's the solution? No sections, I think.Also the information about his sypathies towards Taistoists has little to do with the demonstration and should go hand in hand with his ties to Teinonen (not in the lead, though). Please remove the heading "Controversial publications and pamphlets". It implies that there is something uncontroversial out there, and I am not convinced. Colchicum (talk) 12:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The strange actions of Bäckman can be clustered, as it turns out. For example, his claims regarding the murder of Ms. Politkovskaya can be considered separately from his claims regarding the deportations in Estonia. I submit that we should do that, in order to make the text readable.

As for the table, I guess it would be too unconventional. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 12:39, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

What is a docent?

There seems to be great confusion on what a Finnish docent is. An explanation in both Finnish and English is availabe here Puhe Helsingin yliopiston avajaisissa 11.9.2006 Niklas Meinander (PDF, Speech by Niklas Meinander at the Helsinki University opening ceremony). Quote: "It has now officially been decided that the English language translation should be adjunct professor." Whether Bäckman is giving lectures in the spring semester or not (he is), is totally irrelevat to his position a member of the University's academic staff. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 14:25, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

By the way, what is your source for the English title of the book? Was it translated into English? Colchicum (talk) 15:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

This is in the External links section: Finland washed with Anna Politkovskaya's blood

In Finland, according to "Organisation of Adjunct professor in Finland" (Suomen Dosenttiliitto ), there is 10 000 adjunct professor (dosentti) in Finland. In this document, there are four different kind of dosenttis: 1) Post in own university, for example lecturer, intern, assistant 2) University post in other University or Institute of university 3) Dosentti can also work outside of academic world, for example in private sector 4) Freelancer-researcher who just try to get along with grants and projects. Peltimikko (talk) 08:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Recent sillyness

The idea that Bäckman so much loves Cyrillic he would deliberately have his name transliterated forth and back again (interestingly, why would he use 'Бекман' and not 'Бякман'? And where does the '-c-' come from?) is so silly it needs darn good sources before it can be let into the article, what with WP:BLP and all. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 16:47, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Issues with the IP editing

• He is primarily known as a controversial author, not "in addition". As a "scholar" he doesn't even satisfy Misplaced Pages:Notability (academics). There are zillions of adjunct professors all over the world.
• Blogs, especially those associated with the subject, are not reliable sources and cannot be used to verify the existence of some letters by Raivo Aeg.
• Alexander Dyukov is a young crackpot and not a "famous Moscow historian".

Please anybody clean up after the IP. Colchicum (talk) 19:21, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree. Best would be to revert to the version before this IP started his total makeover. Närking (talk) 20:00, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, the claim that he is still teaching there may have some merit, the sources contradict each other in this respect, but the rest is a total mess. Colchicum (talk) 20:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Hufvudstadsbladet quotes the University's press release: "tjänsteförhållande vid universitetet eller får lön därifrån", which means he is not employed or gets any salary from there. Närking (talk) 20:11, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Most likely, the provided URL of the university's scheduling software is merely reflecting the plans from the year of the scholarly year, which was before Bäckman was replaced. University scheduling software is notoriously bad all over the world, for reasons that sociologists of computing are still trying to figure out. If the statement was made by human, I'd say it's more reliable than the possibly expired schedule generated by a machine.

There's another tidbit that may have some merit: He has taught courses on the sociology of law, criminology and Russian studies. While it requires a source in the long term, it's one of the few changes by the anonymous editor that doesn't immediately run amok with the BLP. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 20:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The anonymous editor is obviously on a roll. Better wait until he/she is complete for tonight. Otherwise, he/she may feel a need to revert the revert, and that kind of warfare will cause more problems than it solves.

COI

A major contributor to this article, Petri Krohn, appears to have a conflict of interest with its subject. Perhaps he should declare his interest in this topic. Martintg (talk) 11:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not "a major contributor to this article". My edists consist mainly of copyedists for readability, after major changes by an IP editor. My interests are in ensuring that the article does not breach WP:BIO. The IP may have a COI though. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

P.S. - And yes, I have removed the sentence about Max Jacobson. The cited source does not mention Bäckman. It is a breach of WP:BIO. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 11:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

What's your association with the Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee and Johan Bäckman? Martintg (talk) 11:51, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

You know, as an experienced Wikipedian and a close colleague of the anonymous editor, you could easily do two things:

• ask him who he is;
• explain to him Misplaced Pages's policies regarding editing articles about oneself or close colleagues.

For example, let's suppose I once worked at the Institute of Physics, doing polymerase chain reactions on their time servers and studying financial rocketry. Then, it wouldn't be appropriate for me to edit the article on the head of the Institute's financial rocketry lab. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 12:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

So, why is Mr. Bäckman so shy to admit that he said what he said in public for seven years? He'll be famous, I am certain. Colchicum (talk) 13:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC) And I mean this and this in particular. What's wrong? Maybe he renounces this? Well, sure thing, "подобные утверждения вредят работе и подрывают научную репутацию", but it was entirely up to him to make fringe claims, nobody else is to blame. His reputation is just it. Colchicum (talk) 13:27, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe he makes different claims for different audiences, and couldn't foresee that somebody might put them together while attempting to write an encyclopædic article on him. Just speculating, of course. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 15:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• Stopping in from the Conflict of Interest Noticeboard, where a comment has been filed regarding this article. I invite all parties, especially new editors, to review the policy on Biographical articles and make sure all material is properly sourced. Additionally, in the interests of avoiding edit wars, please discuss any major content additions or removals here before adding or removing. That way we make sure we have a consensus that the material is appropriate. Finally, keep in mind that the COI guidelines on Misplaced Pages do not prohibit users with a potential COI from editing, provided that they follow the steps I mentioned above, and take extra care to stay neutral and get consensus for their edits. Arakunem 16:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Estonian security police officer Andres Kahar

The above mentioned Andres Kahar has made several statements in the Estonian press against Bäckman; these statements are the opinions of Kahar and not general statements of Kaitsepolitseiamet. Therefore, the name of Kahar should be mentioned in this article. It is worth of mentioning, that a certain Kapo officer is making commentaries about one person in the Estonian press. In general, the Estonian press sources are not realiable. Yellow press sources are not sources for saying what Bäckman or any other person has "written"! This article seems to be a typical smearing campaign by Estonian nationalists against a person critisising their "policies". In general the article should be shortened by all means. Strange that an article was started, consisting fully of yellow press articles from Estonia and selected articles from Russia. There are no references to his actual writings, only second hand information from the yellow press. Very bad quality work from the editors of this article. --91.152.84.165 (talk) 19:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The references clearly state that Andres Kahar is speaking in his capacity as a commissioner of the Kaitsepolitseiamet. 20:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much representant of KAPO. It is interesting that KAPO officers are writing here their smearing campaign against Finnish and Estonian EU-citizens. It is very useful in my opinion to mention the name of Andres Kahar here, since he is the only person mentioned in this kind of KAPO commanteries. Perhaps international press can then call Kahar to ask him directly about Bäckman. --91.152.84.165 (talk) 20:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Please say why the name of Andres Kahar cannot be mentioned in Misplaced Pages? Ans aldo, please reveile you IP. Unless you are Andres himself. --91.152.84.165 (talk) 20:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

If I was Andres Kahar, I would say that I am speaking on behalf of KAPO, not expressing any personal opinion, just like Jamie Shea was speaking on behalf of NATO during the bombing of Belgrade. Martintg (talk) 22:12, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Martin, let's reveal our IPs to финский ученый Йохан Бекман, what do you think? But I am worried about his health, when he learns that the KAPO has already taken over the Earth. Colchicum (talk) 20:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I neither confirm nor deny my IP address is 195.80.106.49. Martintg (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Just a reminder, WP:BLP applies to Mr. Kähar, too. Wikipedians can't just make up his biographical details as they go; anything potentially controversial about him must be duly sourced. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 05:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Security police as a source?

I do not think we can refer to the "opinions" of the Estonian Security Police. The Kaitsepolitseiamet is a secret police. These organizations never make their true opinion known. They can issue statements, but the content can be fact as well as black ops. In this case we must also teke into account that Kahar is Bäckman's opposite number in Estonia. If we use them, they must be attributed to the spokesman; we must clearly state who said what, where and when. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:33, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

This is just your personal speculation and synthesis: you are saying Kahar is Bäckman's opposite number in Estonia, therefore since Kahar is speaking for KAPO, and KAPO is the opposite number to the FSB, who are you suggesting Bäckman is speaking for? It is generally accepted when a report mentions "Fred Flinstone of Bedrock Corporation says..." or "Barny Rubble, commissioner of Police, says..." these people are talking as a representative of the organisation, not expressing a personal opinion. Martintg (talk) 21:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Unfounded speculation. Kapo has revealed its assessment in important public security matters several times, and while it tends to err towards secrecy and avoid influencing ongoing cases, these assessments have regularly been vindicated. In other words, Kapo has a good track record of reliability. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 05:25, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Length of this article

This should be made much shorter. Now it is a collection of strange yellow press quotations. Seemingly his "opinions" could be summarised in two sentences, not several paragraphs repeating each other. What is the purpose of this "article"?--91.152.84.165 (talk) 19:10, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

This should follow Misplaced Pages policies, and nothing more. Per Misplaced Pages:Article size this "article" has always been perfectly ok. In fact, it could easily be twice as long. If Mr. Bäckman's opinion pieces were strange and he preferred to publish them in yellow press, this cannot be helped. We shouldn't whitewash the facts. There were no repetitions, by the way, and I find the stuff very diverse and interesting. By the way, you'd better provide us with references to scholarly reviews of Bäckman's publications, so far I have failed to find anything significant. Colchicum (talk) 19:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

The claim that "Bäckman has published his opinions in yellow press" is absurd. No person is responsible of articles written by other in yellow or another press. Author is responsible only for articles written by himself. The sources show that Estonian press has published several sensational articles about this person. These are not objective source by no means. There are no references to his own writings. This article is clearly edited by hostile Estonian nationalists violating the interests of Estonian republic. This problem is reported to the Misplaced Pages moderators and will be handled accordingly. --91.152.84.165 (talk) 19:41, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

LOL. What about this and this? What about In my opinion speaking or writing of Soviet "occupation" should be criminalised as a form of racist propaganda. I demand five years prison sentence to everyone who dears to say Estonia was "occupied" by Soviet Union? Has it been renounced? He is not responsible for his own words, right? Fine. Noted. What about some unfavorable Russian and Finnish press he got in 2002? Hesari and the Finnish Foreign Ministry are also not objective? By the way, let's get real, obviously he has publications in that damned undemocratic Estonia. Tarbeinfo is based in Tallinn. Don't waste your time, the illegitimate deletions will be reverted (though legitimate additions may be spared). And I am as similar to an Estonian nationalist as Bäckman is to a slim girl, by the way. Colchicum (talk) 19:58, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Both links you mention are clearly not written by Bäckman himself. The first article is seemingly a translation, the second is written by a journalist at APN. You should check his bibliography which is available publicly and look, if he wrote something about Estonia. Everything that is written in the press is not realiable. They are written by journalists, not himself. The article in the first link seemingly is not in his bibliography. His interviews in newspapers might be interesting, but not realiable. There are plenty of yellow press in Estonia and Russia. Primary sources are stuf he wrote himself. Nobody is responsible of stuff the journalists wrote. --91.152.84.165 (talk) 20:04, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages doesn't work this way. It cannot and will not rely on primary sources and self-promotion. Colchicum (talk) 20:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not rely on primary sources? That is something I cannot believe. I will report your "opinion" to the moderators of Misplaced Pages. Unbelievable, that you deny the relevance of primary sources. Seemingly in your opinion the world should be defined according to yellow press. Congratulations!--91.152.84.165 (talk) 20:13, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Looking forward to see the reaction of those moderators. WP:PRIMARY. Now, many different journalists say the same about Bäckman. Who should I believe? The anonymous IP or the lying journalists? Colchicum (talk) 20:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Estonian yellow press smearing campaign and Andres Kahar from Estonian security police

The sources clearly show that this article was written for the first time based solely on Estonian yellow press smearing articles about Bäckman. Therefore, this was an "Estonian" project. Is this good Misplaced Pages policy? Yellow press articles are actually not sources at all. Why they are not referring to articles and papers Bäckman wrote himself? In addition, the smearing campaign of Andres Kahar from the Estonian security police is evident and interesting. This should be mentioned. In several artciles, Mr. Kahar is openly issuing insane statements of Bäckman, claiming him being "communist" or KGB agent whatever. In our knowledge Bäckman has fileda libel suit against Kahar, makes the issue even more actual. --91.152.84.165 (talk) 20:37, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Is Helsingin Sanomat Estonian yellow press? Is Hufvudstadsbladet Estonian yellow press? Is Карельская губернiя Estonian yellow press? Is Центр Политических и Социальных Исследований Республики Карелия Estonian yellow press? I guess everything except for Bäckman's own writings and Channel One of the Russian TV is Estonian yellow press, right? Colchicum (talk) 20:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

As a connoisseur of conspiracy theories, I find the idea of Estonian yellow press having infiltrated Finnish press both white, pink, and Swedish rather curious. Is the theory available in a printed form so I may study it? Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 05:15, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Also in a "Roy Keane playing style mood" tonight Colchicum :) Seriously I don't think this article makes Mr. Bäckman look bad, it makes him look like somebody who seems to enjoy irritating Finish people and the Baltic people, not sure it is true but that is the impression I got from the article (I also got the idea that if he was born as a Russian he would have been anti-Putin just to annoy Russians...). Interesting geezer is Bäckman though! — Mariah-Yulia (talk) 20:57, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, actually this is what the article looked like before his intervention. Colchicum (talk) 21:57, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, there is such thing as real-life trolls. But very few of them are scholars, and if a scholar wants to troll people and maintain scholarly reputation, he'd better be damn good in what he does. If you're a mediocre scholar, your reputation will go out as the trolling campaign progresses. Consider Duane Gish, for a classical example. Once upon time, he was a reputed scientist. Alas, that time has long passed ... Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 05:33, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Bäckman-Teinonen relations are not sourced to Kapo

Bäckman-Teinonen relations are sourced to Eesti Ekspress. Apparently, its journalist read through Pronssisoturi, found the passages relating to Teinonen, checked out the translation affairs, and even interviewed Teinonen. While he also reports an inteview with a Kapo official in the same article -- because it's topical --, it's obvious that Bäckman-Teinonen relations are not based on information from Kapo. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 05:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Hah this is typical fascist nonsense from Estonian nationalist idiots. I hope you can read your own language. Your press is fully corrupted and it publishes any nonsense from the Estonian Kapo Kaitsepolitsei, such as the opinions of person called Andres Kahar. His task is to spread insane ideas about Finnish nationals, because they do not support your apartheid policies. Interesting that Kapo aids are stupid enough to write to Misplaced Pages. --91.152.84.165 (talk) 08:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

• Unassessed Finland articles
• Unknown-importance Finland articles
• All WikiProject Finland pages
• Unassessed Estonia articles
• Unknown-importance Estonia articles
• WikiProject Estonia articles
• Unassessed biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Biography articles of living people