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Proposing move for multiple articles

The instructions on this page for proposing moves to multiple pages are extremely unclear about what the user is supposed to do with that chunk of code, if it's supposed to be combined with the template that is otherwise used to list requested moves, and if it is supposed to be combined, how to do so. Just copying that code and using it instead of the template results in a request that looks strange and wrong compared to the other requests listed. At the very least, if that IS what is supposed to be done and what the request is supposed to look like, it would seem that the page titles listed for moving could be bolded. Propaniac (talk) 15:57, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

You'd have to be more specific as to what you mean by "strange and wrong". JPG-GR (talk) 01:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Help

For Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, we have 2 pages, one with (film) and one with (films). I want to move (films) to (film), however, since it was moved already and the pge is already created, it will not let me do it. How can I move this now?ChaosMaster16 (talk) 19:19, 7 February 2009 (UTC)ChaosMaster16

The answer is, make a move request. (But don't, because you already did, and it's under consideration.) --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 16:32, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Help text

I have been informed that Misplaced Pages:Requested moves should not be used for pages that do not already exist and not for discussing new article creation. Would it be appropriate to add to Step 3 of "Requesting potentially controversial moves" the text 'Do not add the page to the "Other proposals" list if the page to be moved is located in your userspace and the destination does not yet exist'?--MiamiVolts (talk) 16:20, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can tell (based on the anon editor's comment on your talk page) the issue is not that the move requires moving an article from your userspace to the namespace, but whether the article would survive AfD in the namespace. WP:RM is not really the place for that discussion, since it's essentially a content issue, not an article naming issue. Raising the question at the Heroes talk page would probably be a good start towards determining if the article meets notability guidelines. Parsecboy (talk) 16:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying. I've already posted at the Heroes talk page. To limit others making the same mistake, I think it might be good to clarify the help text then by adding to Step 3: 'Do not add a move to the "Other proposals" list if there are only content issues with the article. The list is for articles having issues regarding their names.'--MiamiVolts (talk) 17:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I've just added the above note to step 3. Please clarify it if necessary. Thanks.--MiamiVolts (talk) 06:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
JPG-GR has reverted your edit, and I agree with him: this is not something that comes up often (this is the first time I've seen it). If other editors come along with the same misconception, then it would be worth it to change the instructions; until then, it's better dealt with on a case-by-case basis.--Aervanath (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
Understood. If it later decided to change the instructions, it might also be worth noting that for such cases, the move template is not appropriate either. The use of the move template was also removed from my userpage since the request was no longer posted at WP:RM.--MiamiVolts (talk) 06:32, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Double redirects

You may have noticed a recent change in the software under which double redirects now display both pages in the format Name Name. This is also a functional change essentially eliminating the problem with double redirects; if A → B and B → C, clicking on A will now take one directly to C. Note that this change does not propagate past doubles—triple redirects and higher are not "fixed". Policy, guideline and instruction pages have not yet been updated to reflect the changes but things are coming down the pike on this, and I thought a heads up for regulars was appropriate.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 12:19, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Diacritics

It is becoming clear to me that RM has lost the capability to find any consensus on moves to add or remove diacritcs from article titles. I don't think we are making any progress through having three to five of our most reliable commenters make the same arguments over and over again every day. I know there were efforts long ago to develop a standard guideline for the treatment of diacritics, and that they failed, but we need some sort of a centralized discussion to take the place of these helpless !votes.

In the meantime, while I know it's better not to create any new cabals, I propose that we institute an informal corollary to WP:ENGVAR, agreeing to oppose all move requests based on diacritics until we can come up with a working system for dealing with them. It wouldn't work, of course, unless both Pmanderson and Húsönd were to sign on.

Some of our naming conventions are very good. We have a clear system for treating things with strange mixed caps. We have a clear system for the treatment of company names and products. We have clear systems set up for how to disambiguate between soccer players with the same name, movies with the same title, etc. Can't we figure out something to do with diacritics that doesn't raise anyone's blood pressure? Dekimasuよ! 14:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The larger problem, as I see it, isn't strictly "diacritics vs. not diacritics", but the pursuit of the most accuracy vs. common names. This doesn't just impact Slavic articles; the numerous plant-related move requests we've had recently (such as Yucca Brevifolia/Joshua tree) are essentially the same issue. There are those who favor using common names/spellings, and those who favor the most "correct". Until that issue is resolved, I don't think any progress can be made in the specific areas this larger issue affects. As far as I can tell (or at least based on my interpretation), the naming conventions, particularly WP:UE, favor the former approach (to use common names), yet we have most plant names at their scientific names (even when they have a well-known common name, like the Joshua tree example). Most Slavic-related articles are with diacritics (with the exception of a handful, like Novak Djokovic), despite the fact that the vast majority of English-language sources don't use them. Essentially, we have naming conventions that specify one thing, but everyone does the exact opposite. The question is, do we change the naming conventions to reflect reality, or do we rename the pages that don't comply with the conventions? Parsecboy (talk) 16:44, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't think that I embody the whole pro-diacritics battlefront in my single person, to the point that if both me and Pmanderson would agree to back off then the war would be over. The war will continue to exist, because there will always be people like me who view this issue as accuracy versus "dumb-it-down", while others like Pmanderson view it as common usage versus "make-it-look-like-Chinese". So basically Parsec is right, it does come down to accuracy vs. common usage, and one's position on this matter will change dramatically depending on what one considers more important for this encyclopedia. It doesn't mean that either me or Pmanderson is right and the other wrong, we just see things very differently. And by all means no, it's not just the two of us who will be fighting forever. This has always been a major source of disputes on Misplaced Pages (and certainly some of the weirdest)~, and always will. I can foresee no practical compromise, as both sides disagree on the essential. The only workable solution is to keep a more or less stable equilibrium, where none of the sides tries to impose a policy or guideline on the other, and no user tries to enforce his or her views unilaterally. Húsönd 19:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Húsönd is right; there isn't a compromise here, as the two positions are mutually exclusive and there really isn't a gray area in between them. The only real options here are to go forward with a massive Wiki-wide discussion (it won't be much fun to keep up with the hundreds of thousands of kbs of text that will be posted, and a strong consensus one way or the other is highly unlikely) or to basically sweep the larger issue under the rug and continue to argue over individual articles (which is a waste of time, in my opinion). So we're essentially at an impasse. Parsecboy (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
"Essentially, we have naming conventions that specify one thing, but everyone does the exact opposite." No, most editors for most articles follow the naming conventions. There is no reason why we should not use verifiable reliable sources in English to determine the name of articles. "Parsec is right, it does come down to accuracy vs. common usage," How do you know what is "accurate" if you do not use reliable sources in English to determine what the name is in English? --PBS (talk) 22:50, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, as far as I know, the vast majority of Slavic and Icelandic names (the two most recent major diacritics move requests—Novak Djokovic and Teitur Thordarson) use diacritics. The most common argument from those who favor retaining them is "every other article uses diacritics, why is this one being singled out?" The issue is not "what is common in English usage vs. what is correct in English usage", it's "what's common in English usage vs. what is correct period". The latter argument holds that Novak's name correctly transliterated into the Latin script is indeed "Đoković", and that common usage is largely irrelevant. Again, unless someone wants to start a wiki-wide discussion in the hopes that it would result in a clear consensus, I don't see this as being a resolvable issue. Personally, I don't think such a discussion would result in anything defining, and would therefore not be worth the time it would take away from writing/improving articles—you know, the more important thing. Parsecboy (talk) 02:10, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Non-admins

Some of the moves requested here look like they can be done by non-admins fairly easily; is it okay for someone like myself to make the move and remove it from this list, or add it to the controversial moves section? -–Drilnoth (T • C) 14:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's perfectly fine for non-admins to work here. JPG-GR more or less ran the page for a significant period of time before he finally got the bit. Parsecboy (talk) 14:54, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Okay; just wanted to make sure. -–Drilnoth (T • C) 14:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
You can do any moves except those that require admin tools: deletion of a redirect, moving a large number of subpages or history merge. Ruslik (talk) 16:46, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Okay; and maybe with some moves that do need deletion I could just use {{db-move}}, so that it gets done faster? Or should I just wait until an admin comes through this page? –Drilnoth (T • C) 18:35, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

My personal preference would be to leave it for an admin, so that it gets done in one step. There are, I believe, about four admins who come by now and again. 199.125.109.102 (talk) 00:35, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Using {{db-move}} is perfectly fine (it's why the template exists, after all). Again, that's how JPG-GR got things done here for a long time. Parsecboy (talk) 00:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Okay; thanks. –Drilnoth (T • C) 02:00, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Review of Teitur Þórðarson's move proposal

Aervanath (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) closed this move proposal as "move", clearly against consensus as arguments provided by the opposition were simply disregarded. Questioned about his rationale, Aervanath claims that previous title was "not in the Latin alphabet". The move of "Teitur Þórðarson" to current "Teitur Thordarson" not only was clearly non-consensual, as it is not concurred by many articles we have throughout Misplaced Pages that have titles that use every single letter contained in the previous title (e.g. Þingeyri, Þórshöfn, etc). And which, let's not dispute, was in the Latin alphabet. Furthermore, by moving to "Teitur Thordarson", Aervanath not only eliminated the letter thorn (Þ), as also the letters "ó" and "ð", usage of which is even more widespread throughout Misplaced Pages; and more accurate. In fact, in the discussion one user expressed concerns that, should the thorn be eliminated, the other diacritics should by all means remain. Aervanath ignored this and closed the proposal as move. I request his closure to be reviewed and overturned. Thank you, Húsönd 19:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

To be fair, I, the user Husond refers to, don't really mind the eth being replaced by a d. He/she is correct, though about how everyone has ignored my arguments as to why even if the thorn and eth are changed, the o-acute should remain. Regardless of whether thorn and eth are part of the Latin alphabet, or the English alphabet, or are generally recognizable to English speakers, the o-acute is a modified o, which is part of the Latin alphabet generally and the English alphabet in particular, and is recognizable as a modified o rather than as a funny Druidic or Viking thingy. No one involved in the move and the debate over it has offered a reason, let alone a convincing one, for the o-acute to be changed to an unmodified o.--Atemperman (talk) 16:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to add that only two users, out of five who didn't remain neutral, supported this proposal. This is not even a plurality, let alone a majority that is necessary to form consensus. Admiral Norton 18:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Of the 5 editors who commented one way or the other, two supported, two opposed, and one proposed dropping the eth and thorn but retain the "ó". From a straight head-count, the result would be no-consensus, but the evidence presented also needs to be considered. Those who favored the move provided a number of reliable sources that support the transliterated name. The single source found by Húsönd turned out to be a Misplaced Pages-mirror. In cases where there appears to be no strong consensus either way, evidence of wider English-language usage can tip the scale. Parsecboy (talk) 18:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Going back and reviewing the discussion, I saw the same thing that Parsecboy just pointed out: the only source that used the original spelling was a Misplaced Pages mirror; all other sources use "Thordarson", with no special characters at all, not even diacritics. So, according to WP:COMMONNAME, my decision should be upheld, even if consensus does ultimately hold that "thorn" and "eth" are English characters after all. But that's a discussion for another day and another page.--Aervanath (talk) 07:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
That was not the reason you pointed out when questioned about the closure of the proposal, clearly indicating that it was not your rationale upon deciding to move. The rationale you presented, as per the discussion on your talk page, was that the letter thorn "was not in the Latin alphabet". Now gripping on the common name argument presented above (which would definitely be better explored in the discussion if you hadn't closed it) and treating it as if it had been the motive behind your closure is not the least convincing. You closed the discussion in err, and now are trying to justify it with a rationale that you did not use. Húsönd 07:44, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I am going to copy this conversation onto the talk page of the article as it seems to be article specific. Please carry on the thread there. --PBS (talk) 11:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
It is not just article-specific, it is wider-feedback-needed-specific. That's why the discussion should occur here and not on the article's talk page where it would have virtually no effect. Húsönd 18:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Husond is right that this is a discussion that should occur here, since he's asking for a review of my closure by other editors, not just a new discussion.--Aervanath (talk) 05:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
  • After some thought, I can see Husond's point. While I think the result of my decision was the correct one, based on WP:COMMONNAME, that wasn't the rationale I initially judged the discussion on, and I can see that switching rationales when challenged could seem somewhat shifty. Therefore, I'll re-open the discussion there, and we can continue the move discussion so that a discussion can take place about how WP:COMMONNAME applies to the move decision. I still think the use of non-standard English letters should be discouraged, but that's a separate argument that should take place on the article talk page, as well as the talk page of WP:UE.--Aervanath (talk) 05:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
"non-standard English letters should be discouraged" I don't think so. Their usage should neither be discouraged or encouraged, we should follow the usage in reliable English language sources. Just like we do for Voßstraße. --PBS (talk) 11:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I applaud and commend Aervanath on his decision. Such decisions are sadly not as frequent as they should be. Húsönd 18:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
By the way, if the discussion was reopened, shouldn't the article be moved back to Teitur Þórðarson until a final decision is made by another closing admin? Húsönd 18:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Keep it where it is, and if the final judgment is "no consensus", then move it back by default.--Aervanath (talk) 12:17, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Disputed. If the closure of the discussion was undone, it is imperative that the resulting action be undone as well (doesn't make any sense otherwise for a move proposal if the proposed title is already in place, which often makes it de facto effective). I'll move it back to Teitur Þórðarson, it won't be wheel warring as the closing admin revoked his own decision. If the next closing admin decides to move the article, then he/she is free to move to Thordarson again. Last but least, the discussion was reopened but not listed at WP:RM as it should have, so how are other users supposed to know that there is an ongoing discussion? I'll list it back. Húsönd 16:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
That's fine.--Aervanath (talk) 16:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Heh, I know I'm a pain. Somehow I actually have friends in real life. :-) Húsönd 20:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Backlog subsections

Unless you are on a 300 baud modem, breaking down the backlog into sections would seem to just cause confusion - like does multiple mean it has been proposed more than once? I would recommend just keeping the backlog in one section. Just indenting the ones that are included works fine. 199.125.109.126 (talk) 16:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't really see a need for it either. Parsecboy (talk) 16:26, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. JPG-GR (talk) 19:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Heh. I had removed them without even seeing this thread. I was under the assumption that it was a temporary thing, just because there were a couple different multiple noms active at the time; once I closed them, I deleted the subsections. Looks like I wasn't the only one who saw no need for them.--Aervanath (talk) 08:15, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Review of Alawites to ‘Alawi move

Review request of unilateral undiscussed move of Alawites to ‘Alawi move here. The move has never gained consensus in subsequent discussions. See previous discussion at Talk:‘Alawi.

I am requesting a move back to Alawites or at least a cleansing of its edit history so I can do it myself per WP:BOLD. — AjaxSmack 01:59, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

don't you think that after two additional RMs have been made and failed, this is a bit too late? Jasy jatere (talk) 06:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Rationale for votes

How valid is such rationale? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:22, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I think, if I were to guess, it's a Eurovision concern; i.e., his concern is probably that the vote there is going by nationality block voting, Polish editors vs. Lithuanian editors (+ a few international editors), and that there's simply many more Polish editors. So simply the larger number of voters will ensure victory, irrespsective of the arguments (or quality of the song in Eurovision). Does that make sense? :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 22:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah but explain this. Not a good analogy ;)
In don't care particularly which conspiracy theory a person may follow; I am asking if such theories, leading a user to vote with no concern to content, but with concern to who has voted how previously in a RM vote, represent a valid rationale for RM votes. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:57, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Well, it's a fair statistical trend. Using the information available from their pages or posts, according to my incomplete knowledge, one can see a clear parallel with Eurovision (accuracy not likely 100%)
Let's see ... those supporting ...
While those opposing ...
...conspiracy theory? Hmm. Eurovision statistical trend ... definitely! Not bad faith, it just happens that human beings form groups, one of which in the modern world is national allegiance. It's not anything against you or me or anyone else ... we're all human. So Ghirla has problems with this? I think we all would rather debates were settled by consensus and discussion rather than numbers. Surely, no? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 23:19, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Deacon I would appreciate if you removed your assumptions about my vote and considered that I do have an opinion on the matter which I have clearly stated. Also my ethnicity is rather irrelevant I would gather? Thank you very much. --Avg (talk) 23:56, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Not quite. You agree with me, hence you are suspicous. If you were to disagree with me, you would be beyond doubt. Also, see this, rules #4, #8 and #9 should give you all the information you need :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 02:54, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

To answer Piotrus's original question, no, the !vote rationale in question is not a valid reason for opposing, and will probably be ignored by the closing admin.--Aervanath (talk) 06:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:09, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of closing - any ideas on when that might happen? Novickas (talk) 01:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Requested moves are usually listed on WP:RM for at least five days before closure. However, if discussion is still ongoing, RM closers may let it run until either a) consensus (or lack thereof) is clear, or b) the discussion has died out.--Aervanath (talk) 04:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
And I have now closed it as "no consensus".--Aervanath (talk) 05:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)