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Descriptions
Why cant the descriptions for each article show the full story, "Macedon" identity is argued yet on Misplaced Pages it is "in nothern Greece" (even tho many state it is north of Greece), "Ancient Macedonian language" is argued between Illyrian, Thracian, and Greek... yet it states "closely to Greek" (even though its close to Illyrian and Thracian also). Stop the propaganda Greeks
Mactruth (talk) 02:45, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Pella curse tablet, Ancient Macedonian language, Argead dynasty, what more do you want, to convince yourself? Why do you want to eliminate the word "Greek" and "Greece" from the ancient Macedonia, when we all know that it was a part of the ancient Greece? --xvvx (talk) 03:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- I never stated I wanted to eliminate, I simply state that some authors state "Macedonian is Thracian" others state "Macedonian is Illyrian" while others state its Greek, yet it is not reflected in the Misplaced Pages, which is supposed to be neutral and show all sides. Mactruth (talk) 05:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Simply looking at the Misplaced Pages page it states:
- an Indo-European language which is a close cousin to Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938), or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).
- an "Illyrian" dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987).
I don't have time at the moment, but this proves authors disagree as to what ancient Macedonian is, whether it is Greek, Thracian, Illyrian (etc) and should be shown in the page Mactruth (talk) 05:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
You are trying to convince the people from your profile that the Macedonians are not Greeks! Are the Epirotes not Greek, the Creatans not Greek, the Peloponnesians not Greek, the Euboeans not Greek, the Thessalians not Greek... etc??? From the ancient times the Greeks defined their origin not only ethnological, but georgaphical too, just like the Greeks do nowdays.
I wont say more but why are you using a Greek symbol (Vergina Sun) in your profile, that is forbidden for use by your country and it was discovered by Manolis Andronikos in 1977 in Greek Macedonia?...
From the Vergina Sun article...
"The Vergina Sun (or Star) is the intellectual property of Greece and a state emblem of the country under the World Intellectual Property Organization, as well in its differen variations."
What would the reactions from the Americans be, if suddenly the Greeks start using one of their symbol? Why did your country do that?
You are talking about propaganda, but your profile is full of it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sakis79 (talk • contribs) 18:40, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Look at the Flag of Malaysia, the Flag of Chile, and the Flag of Liberia. Even the Greek flag was probably influenced by the American flag. No Americans have started crying yet. --Local hero 19:32, 19 March 2009
- All off-topic, people. Please go elsewhere. This is the discussion page of a dab page. The only purpose of a dab page is to pass a reader on to the real articles as quickly as possible, and the only purpose of this discussion page is to work out how best to do that. Take your POV gripes elsewhere, everybody. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Macedonia (terminology) should be up front in this article.
It was a featured article too. I added it on the top and then someone said "Sorry it's also on the 'see also' section". I know, but the 'see also' section is not really part of the main article, or it's not that apparent. This is a very important article (terminology) that provides a length of information not found in this one. --AaThinker (talk) 06:51, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, but that's just what the "see also" section is for. It just doesn't fit into the logic of the main list. "'Macedonia' can refer to 'Macedonia (terminology)'" is simply not a true statement. 'Macedonia' refers to a real entity out there, and the Macedonia (terminology) article is not about such an entity, but about a discussion on a lingustic meta-level. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:31, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Alternate names & Geographic terms
- There is really no reason to add the so-called geographic terms on this disambiguation page as User:Fireleaf did. I've seen he had repeated this discussion here for the same edits. Now he/she is trying to slowly and secretly re-feed those terms for both the Bulgarian part and the Greek part, with two edits separated by some days apart :). I'm joking, but strangely what is missing is an edit to add the other geographic term: Vardar Macedonia
- I assume good faith, please Fireleaf explain why to add these terms. If we do for reference purposes, wouldn't there be logical to add alternate names like FYROM for the Republic too? After all it is an official name used by many international organizations. Wouldn't that lead to an editing mess? Let's keep it simple then.
- This page is to help someone who doesn't know which Macedonia article to read about. References to these terms belong to the Macedonia (terminology) article or elsewhere, not here
- If the edits were meant to inform the reader on the geography, in my opinion the geography of the regions is pretty clear from the text. Besides there is a link for the geography right on the top. A "region in northern Greece" and "a western province of Bulgaria" makes everything crystal clear, no need to add anything else. Since we are begging this discussion I must mention that the geography of FYROM is not so clear from the text. Should we add northern Macedonia, as in "the northen part of the Macedonia region"? I'm not in much favor of doing this on this page. What do you think?
- Please discuss before doing these edits again. By the way I'm sure that you understand that both Pirin Macedonia and Aegean Macedonia are controversial terms as stated in the respective articles. Is it really helpful to disambiguate a term using other controversial terms? Let's go for simplicity.Shadowmorph (talk) 00:01, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
The "new sections" added to Macedonia dis. page
If you are going to add subgroups of an ethnicity, why not add Aegean Macedonians and Pirin Macedonians? Obviously, they are a subgroup of Macedonians and contain the word "Macedonian"
- Macedonians (Greeks) - We already stated subgroups would not be added to the dis. page
- Macedonian dialect - the page does NOT even give a description of a so called "Macedonian dialect" but rather the speakers are talking a Northern dialect, where an example of a Northern dialect is "Macedonian." The problem is this statement is a modern dialect based on modern political divisions, not historical date (ie: There are no documents stating in the middle ages or ottoman empire of "the greek dialect of Macedonian")
- Macedonians (Bulgarians) - again, we already stated subgroups would not be included (ie: Aegean Macedonians also), and the page does not even direct you to an appropriate page, but rather a list?
- Slavic-speakers of Greek Macedonia (Slav-Macedonians) - pure politics. First off, you include in the historical section, ignoring that Greek Macedonia was not created until 1913. Second, you write "Slavic Macedonians" but there is already a redirect for that! Again, this is a SUBGROUP, not an ethnicity.
- Macedon or Macedonia, the kingdom in ancient Greece - Again, I have added sources showing Macedon was regarded NORTH of Greece by several historians, but instead you Greeks DELETE the data... ignoring what doesn't suit your agenda. I'm sorry but if you want data Future Sunshine just ask, but some authors state "Northern Greece" others state "North of Greece" and ignoring that shows bias.
- The Ancient Macedonian language, an extinct Indo-European variety close to Greek - Again, I showed sources stated authors stated the Macedonian language was Thraco-Illyrian, but again you DELETE and IGNORE the date. Why are Greeks so reluctant to show ALL the data, and instead focus on their point of view only? Again Future Sunshine, if you want the data just ask but don't make Misplaced Pages bias.
Mactruth (talk) 04:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
- I've taken it all back to the last version of Future Perfect. The users adding stuff can discuss it here prior to adding it again. --Laveol 09:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
- Mactruth please discuss this. Why are you reverting good faith edits, marking the revert as minor. I don't think that is ok to do. I don't understand the reason we have to hide all other ethnic groups in the region. What does it mean that they are subgroups? Misplaced Pages has info on other Macedonians too. Should we hide that information by suggesting that no other people call themselves Macedonians? This is a disambiguation page! Everything that could be referenced with the name Macedonia (or adj. Macedonian) should be mentioned here. Also, the argument about the subgroups is wrong. There is no rule against subgroups. Aren't the Macedonians (ethnic group) also a subgroup, that of peoples of Macedonia region? Why don't we have that article like Peoples of the Caucasus that mentions all ethnicities? Why is there no problem with other Misplaced Pages disambiguation pages like America, American, Caucasus, Caucasian. They have links to all subgroups involved. Maybe we should split the disambiguation page into noun + adjective like it is standard practice in Misplaced Pages. If we serve all the links for the noun why should we not do the same for the adjective? Sorry but it makes no sense. Since the adjective is used in English to refer to other peoples like here and here the information should be in this page. So to quote Metallica nothing else matters! Shadowmorph (talk) 01:44, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
So I guess according to some editors 2.5 million Greeks being called regularly Macedonians isn't notable. And Macedonian referring to the a specific a dialect of Greek (one of the Northern dialects) isn't notable either because there isn't enough info in Misplaced Pages. That can't be an excuse. I'd be bold and create the article, but there is some effort involved and I'm not the definative expert.
In favor of disambiguating to Macedonian dialect of Greek: Here are some sources on the Macedonian dialect explicitly referring to the dialect of modern Greek quote from a book on Greek phonology
- Now in modern Greek the dialects are divided sharply on this point. The dialects of Macedonia, Thrace and Thessaly have "σε δίνω", those of the rest of of Greece "σου δίνω", in the sense of "I give you"
quote from just one linguistics book
- THE MACEDONIAN DIALECT (note: a whole chapter) : The Greek language has come down to us, like the old Teutonic language, in a number of dialects and sub-dialects
quote from a book about the Greek Testament
- the dialect spoken in most of northern Greece ...the Macedonian dialect uses accusative clitics
In the Bible. Here is just one book I could find that specifically mentions that passage
- Why were you called Timotheus by the Thessalonians? he replied : "In the Thessalonian dialect Timotheus meant the same as leader or bishop.". Note that the meaning of the word Thessalonian at that time transcended to Macedonian Shadowmorph (talk) 09:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- How about we include disambig entries only if and when an actual target article has been written? Nobody denies we could have some encyclopedic treatment of, let's say, modern Macedonian Greek dialects. But right now, we don't. Nobody has taken the trouble of writing any. Not even our survey articles on Modern Greek and Varieties of Modern Greek have anything. So, what's the use of having links to articles that don't exist?
- By the way, before somebody endeavors to write one, I would first want to check if "Macedonian" today is a linguistically relevant dialectological category at all. Of course there are Greek dialects in Macedonia, but is Macedonia a distinctive dialect region? Are there any linguistic features that are characteristic of Greek Macedonia as such, rather than, say, of the whole of northern Greece, or of only a sub-area of Macedonia? Do linguistically relevant dialect boundaries coincide, even roughly, with those region boundaries between Macedonia, Thrace, Epirus or whatever? Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
- I've checked out the American disambig. page here is what is used there
- A citizen or something of or from the United States
- For the collective inhabitants of the U.S., see Demographics of the United States
- A citizen of one of the nations of the Americas
- A citizen or something of or from the United States
- I've checked out the American disambig. page here is what is used there
- I agree with you on some extent. I hope this won't be just an excuse. You see above (as in many other disambiguation pages) that there is no requirement for an article to exist, rather that a reference exists that may be used with the term. In that case a wording like for the dialect of Greek spoken in the region see Modern Greek is what should be used
- Articles do exist on all "subgroups" of people (and all of them were or are self-identified as just Macedonians now or in various times in history). We should include all of them. Actually I find the term "subgroup" rather ugly, aren't all ethnic groups in the region logical subsets ("subgroups") of the Peoples of Macedonia region? It isn't a matter of whether the cover article exists, its a matter of logic. We shouldn't include one and not the other.
- Why do we have to discuss weather there is an Elephant in the Room when -funny enough- other pages like Caucasian have links even to one-line orphan articles like North_Caucasian_(pig) :D
- It absurd enough that these people appear in their own lists but have no respective articles.
- I have went on and sourced Modern Greek#Varieties and enriched Varieties of Modern Greek to reflect things that were written in the first but not the second.
- You can read the 2nd of the sources or take my word for it, there exists a Macedonian dialect of modern Greek. It is a common anecdote among all Greeks and a source for some teasing among Athenians and Thessalonians about which form of speaking is the correct. All of the Greek speaking people of Macedonia (most of them in the capital Thessaloniki) speak this "dialect" (it is actually an idiom). People from Kozani to Katerini and Kavala speak the idiom but people south of Katerini or East of Kavala almost never do. The boundaries are of course blurry, but the fact is that this idiom is characterized naturally by Macedonia (thus the usual connotation he speaks Thessalonian after the capital of the
- In the Macedonian dialect other things difer as well, many words - like this funny difference for the word of a popular food, explained here Souvlaki#Kalamaki. There are countless examples for differences in the vocaulary for foods, outside Macedonia in the rest of Greece, the food named Bougatsa is different thing. Also in Macedonia the "L" is pronounced thicker, at times written with double "L"
- To lighten up a little, here is a guy from Thessaloniki (In Macedonia called Salonikios, but elsewhere in Greece called Thessalonikios) speaking with the Macedonian idiom: :) Shadowmorph (talk) 14:20, 12 April 2009 (UTC)