Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conflict

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"pro-life"

See also the discussion on Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conflict/Archive 1#About self-identifying names.

The term "pro-life" is propaganda. Who is "anti-life," besides pro-global-nuclear-war-ists? Even the homicidal and suicidal are not necessarily "anti-life," they simply want to end one or more individual lives. The debate is over "abortion," not "life." There are activists on both sides of the abortion rights debate, but I can't even think of any genuine "anti-life" activists. Even those who advocate the eradication of Homo sapiens generally do so for what they perceive to be the benefit of other species. Again, "pro-life" is pure propaganda and has no place in an encyclopedia except to reference its usage. When referencing the debates between those who call themselves "pro-life" and their opponents, an encyclopedia ought to avoid propaganda terms and use properly descriptive ones. The policy of calling groups by the names preferred by their members can be rather easily reduced to the absurd and is therefore impossible to maintain consistently. Better to call things what they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.218.107 (talk) 18:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

This is another situation which shows that the section of the guidance on self-identifying names removed by one person at the end of April needs restoring - which I have done. One can argue endlessly on whether a group "ought" to be called by any particular name - pro-choice or pro-life. The fact is that they use these names. The guidance makes the solution clear. Xandar 23:45, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

But Misplaced Pages's solution is the reverse, surely? We don't automatically use self-identifying names. That's why I consider this passage misleading.--Kotniski (talk) 09:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

That's the agreed policy of the guideline. In other words, it's what should be done. To change that guidance needs a lot more than one person's opinion. As far as I know the guidance is generally followed, except in the case of English Language names for foreign places, where another policy applies: eg Poland not Polska. An example of the use of this policy is Mormon Church which directs to "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints". Xandar 12:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

So if it isn't applicable to places, surely it shouldn't start off by trying to make a distinction between different types of places? Can't the whole section be reduced to a statement something like "If it is not clear what is the most common name for something in English, prefer the name that it uses to identify itself" (and then give some real-life examples)?--Kotniski (talk) 12:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No. I was talking about the special case of English language names for foreign places. But it is basic to English Misplaced Pages that the English Language name of the body institution or place be used. But if that body has a preferred English Language name, that should be used. For example: Peking redirects to Beijing, and Calcutta to Kolkata. I do not think it will be a benefit to anyone to shorten the guidance, since the purpose of guidance is to provide a comprehensive aid to dispute resolution. Xandar 23:41, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

That oversimplifies why we use Kolkata. It's not simply a matter of local preference; it has also become English usage, at least in Indian English and probably further. See WP:NCGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

So if I call myself "the literal supernatural creator of the universe" and do something to become notable enough to warrant an article here, then Misplaced Pages will accept that I am the literal supernatural creator of the universe and refer to me as such, without questioning the absurdity of doing so? I hardly think so. More likely, my article would be named according to my birth name, with a note in the lede that I refer to myself as the literal supernatural creator of the universe. Then there would be a section dedicated to the controversy surrounding my self-given name, which would consist of an ever-increasing list of "on-the-other-hands," going back-and-forth endlessly and generating the bulk of the talk page discussion. Yet all of this absurdity would be preferable to simply accepting my self-appointed designation as the literal supernatural creator of the universe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.218.107 (talk) 15:54, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, no. If you really become notable under that name, then that will be the title of your Misplaced Pages article. See Badly Drawn Boy for an example. sephia karta | di mi 17:55, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Note to self: 1) change name to "the literal supernatural creator of the universe"; 2) become notable enough to warrant a WP article; 3) prove sephia karta wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.218.107 (talk) 04:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Consider the article on Emperor Norton. Obviously, he was not an emperor but he became notable because of his claim to be an emperor. Misplaced Pages isn't saying that he was an emperor and isn't just titling the article Emperor Norton because he called himself as such but because he was called that by everyone else. --Richard (talk) 21:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

But we don't use Catholic Church; because it's not common usage - Roman Catholics use it, and not all of them; some of them prefer to communicate with the rest of the English-speaking world. So it's a bad example.
Cabinda is a strikingly bad example; if we preserve this, we should use Fooland and Barland, not a potential, if now quiescent, naming conflict.
Nevertheless, can both of you agree that self-identification is one of the claims that naming discussions do in fact take under consideration?
- For one thing, self-identifications often do become common usage; I like the inversion of "anti-choice" and "anti-life", but those aren't suitable terms to explain the conflict in an encyclopedia - yet. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:04, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Above remark is now out of date. Article name now is Catholic Church. Likewise Orthodox Church. Peter jackson (talk) 10:24, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Improper moves, which violated the only part of this page which is policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:44, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Those weren't improper moves. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 02:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, they were not improper moves. Majoreditor (talk) 02:29, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Altering guideline without Community-Wide Consensus

Does this long passage on self-identifying names belong in a naming guideline?

The passage concerned being the one which was restored in this diff.--Kotniski (talk) 12:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Kontiski and one other seem to be determined to drastically cut a major section of this guideline on self-identifying names without any consensus whatsoever. This is an agreed Misplaced Pages POLICY GUIDELINE. As such it needs not only a good reason and a very wide consensus to change, it needs a consensus that reflects feeling across the community. I can see no good reason to cut this long-established guideline, and no good reason has been presented here. We can't have people just altering guidance to suit themselves. So can these people stop taking it upon themselves to alter policy guidance without proper Wiki-wide consultation. Xandar 10:52, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, all this could be said the other way round - Xandar and no other are determined to keep reinserting a section that seems (on the basis of practice and other guidelines) not to enjoy community consensus, or even to make much sense. You seem to be mainly interested in it because you think it supports your arguments about what to call the (Roman) Catholic Church article, so you're hardly in a position to accuse others of altering it to suit themselves. Anyway, what matters is whether it clearly and accurately states how we do things - what evidence do you have for that? Evidence has been given above on this page that it doesn't.--Kotniski (talk) 12:17, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

My principal point is that this guidance was written in Summer 2005, and the part Kotniski wants to remove has been in the guidance since July that year. It has been there for the whole lifetime of the guidance and enjoyed community support for all that time. It should not be significantly altered or removed on the whim of one or two people. I believe it has a very useful purpose in specifying how naming guidance works in practice - with a clear theoretical example. Of course I was interested in it because the policy is relevant to a recent dispute. I'm not saying this is set in stone, but any significant change has to be carefully negotiated and approved by the wider WP community, certainly more than a couple of people who just happen to be here. I don't think there is a good reason for cutting this so drastically. It might also be useful to involve more of the original authors in any proposed changes. Xandar 22:51, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Question Why do those who want to remove the section want to do so? On the face of it it looks useful. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:56, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, to me: (a) it doesn't have a clear relation to this page (it talks about using names "in" articles when this page should be about naming articles, and it isn't clear if any of this relates to that topic); (b) it is based on premises that don't have any following on WP (that local names for populated places somehow have a different status than local names for geographical features; and that we always call things by their local/self-adopted names rather than by their common English names). In other words, it doesn't reflect accepted WP editorial practice, and therefore has no place on a page which is marked as a guideline. (It could be made into an essay.)--Kotniski (talk) 16:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

So basically you seem to be quarrelling with the policy that the names chosen by self-identifying entities to identify themselves should be followed by Misplaced Pages. The alternative would be for Misplaced Pages to decide what these entities names SHOULD be, even if they dislike or reject those names. That is a lot more than just the trimming, or shortening of the guidance that was initially claimed by those wanting the change. It would be a major change of policy that would re-start a hundred now-dormant naming conflicts across Misplaced Pages. Mormom-Latter Day Saints, Macedonia-Greece, Clay-Ali, Catholic-Roman Catholic, Orthodox-Eastern Orthodox, Coptic-Ethiopian Orthodox etc. etc. Basically I think the established guidance adopts the correct principle of WP editors not overruling people, cities or organisations as to what their name is. As far as the other point goes, the guidance is "Misplaced Pages naming conflicts" It doesn't just say "titling conflicts". Xandar 22:28, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, the principle (as stated in other better-known and better-followed policies and guidelines) is that we use the names by which things/people are best known in English. In the great majority of cases that's also the self-identifying name, but that doesn't mean that self-identification is the principle that we follow. I'm certainly not saying that we decide what the name SHOULD be, just what it IS - but based primarily on third-party sources rather than the subject's own preference. And I don't mind the self-identifying name being taken into account as one of the factors considered when it's not clear what the common name is - but the way this passage is written, it makes it sound like the self-name should automatically trump all others. --Kotniski (talk) 08:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

That's your opinion, however it would be a major change of Misplaced Pages policy to do as you suggest - and a change that would have many ramifications in re-igniting conflict. At the moment the guidance is clear and easily followed, making it more obscure for no good reason, would cause endless disputes. One name that Kotniski's proposed new policy would almost certainly alter would be the Church which most people would find by typing Mormon Church. Xandar 22:57, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

No new policy is being proposed; I just want to get rid of a passage that misstates existing policy. (Look at Burma, for example - we don't go with the self-identifying name.) Given the lack of interest in this discussion, it seems that no-one is interested in this page anyway, hence any changes made here almost certainly won't have any effect on the way things are actually done, they will just prevent anyone who chances on this page by accident from being misled.--Kotniski (talk) 07:25, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

It appears to be your view alone, that the clearly-stated guidance, that has been here for rfour years, unchallenged, and used in many disputes is "MISSTATING POLICY"! This is an amazing conclusion! The policy is quite clear about self-identifying names. And there is no mandate to change it. You seem to be confusing the WP:Use English policy with the one on self-identifying names. In cases where a country or person has a self-identifying name that has significantly BETTER usage in English, then the English form of the self-identifying name should be used. That is the general rule. Naples for Napoli for example. Sometimes, when the English name is so well used that to use another would cause confusion there are special issues, such as Burma. The change of name by the military government to Myanmar is also opposed by many Burmese democrats. Bombay however has changed its name with popular agreement. However these are not reasons for changing the rule - which is what you are really proposing. Xandar 15:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Can the two parties please provide a clear summary of the issue? Examples and all that aside, what is the specific statement that is in question? The current wording certainly goes against the fresh WP:POLICY#Content rules on 'theorizing', which is certainly what a statement like the following is:

"A distinction should be drawn between a self-identifying entity and an inanimate or non-human entity. An inanimate geographical feature such as a sea or mountain, or a non-human entity such as an animal, does not have a name for itself."

This is inappropriate and unclear, but I'd like to know what the real issue here is. The amount of time that something has existed as policy is irrelevant, if some prior broad consensus discussion for its inclusion does not exist. M 02:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

It's hard to point to a specific statement when the whole thing is unclear. Certainly this theorizing about differences between populated and inanimate places needs to go - I've never seen this distinction play a role in discussions about place naming. If there are areas of WP where self-identifying names are prioritized (Xandar suggests this is the case with names of church organizations) then this should be stated, but whatever it is that we are trying to state here needs to be set out clearly and concisely.--Kotniski (talk) 07:55, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, well the entire thing should be either removed, or rephrased to not require a long speculative account, filled with examples, of what it means for a thing to be "self-identifying". Most of this, especially the stuff about inanimate objects, can be replaced with "Some persons and organizations have stated preferred names for themselves. In such cases where a thing cares what it's called, we..." M 08:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

For reference, there are only 4 non-reverting editors having over 5 edits on this page:

 (total edits, chars sum: added minus removed, chars added, chars removed, content moves)
ChrisO           (29, 14566, 3250, 17816, 22)
Francis Schonken (13, 2409, 1324, 3733, 16)
Wolfkeeper       (11, 0, 0, 0, 0)
Kotniski         (6, -2371, 2942, 571, 6)

Which doesn't look too good, in terms of diversity. This should mean that the person claiming that widespread community support for some specific wording exists should provide evidence. M 09:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what is allegedly "unclear" about a self-identifying name. Either a body has a name for itself or it doesn't. A mountain doesn't name itself. A country DOES. It's not too hard to understand. The length and the examples ADD to the clarity - which is needed in contentious naming disputes. This policy has stood for many years and is quite clear. The statement of konitski that it isn't used is just supposition on his part, with no proof whatsoever. Similarly the lack of changes to the policy show its stability and usefulness rather than vice-versa. So far I have seen no rationale for a change other than WP:Idontlikeit. It would certainly need a lot more than Kotniski and a couple of his friends to change such a basic policy. Xandar 19:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Look at it this way: If it's clear, you don't need to go on and on about rocks and trees and birds. It's entirely irrelevant that this specific wording has stood for many years, as long as nothing substantive changes. So, what do you see as the substantive (important, crucial, unchangeable) parts of this section? M

Believe it or not, it has come up. Otherwise the community wouldn't have seen fit to put it in the guideline. People argue over all sorts of names, I don't see how more examples and more clarity could be a bad thing. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 20:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Strongly against Kotniski proposals to cut the section. It would be a violation of the WP:NPOV policy to cut out a section on what entities self-descibe their own name as. The section is very useful and should remain within the article. There doesn't really seem to be a good reason to remove it, other than, as Xandar pointed out WP:Idontlikeit. If it isn't broke don't fix it. - Yorkshirian (talk) 20:25, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The line Kotniski objects to certainly is needed. There are plenty of disputes over the names of inanimate objects - the Persian Gulf (or Arabian Gulf) and the Sea of Japan (or East Sea) are just two examples. In those cases there's no "definitive" name for such things - we go with what is most frequently used in English. Countries, cities and other geopolitical bodies are a different matter because they do have a self-selected name. That's why we make that distinction in the guideline. It's an important distinction to make, because disputes over geopolitical names and geographical names need to be treated somewhat differently. As the original author of the guideline, I suggest that the line should stay. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the current guideline could use some review, rethinking and possibly rewriting. I'm not prepared to lay out a coherent discussion of the issues at this time. However, pending a thorough review of the guideline, I think we should keep the text that Kotniski wishes to delete. Using the Self-identifying name is a good guideline. --Richard (talk) 21:28, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

A major part of the issue here is the objection to the wording and the theorizing, not to the actual substantive parts of the policy. The weird "self-identifying" self-identifying terminology needs to be removed in favor of something coherent. I read that section and my mind goes numb; there's a much easier way to state things. M 22:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Ok, I cleaned up a bunch of this as per WP:POLICY. Nothing substantive was removed, but the weird and confusing theorizing was mostly cut. By the way, a self-identifying name, much like a self-identifying homosexual or wikipedian, is someone who identifies themselves as that label. In this context, it basically means a name that identifies itself as a name, which is nonsense. The term we want to use here is "preferred name", as in that little box, on forms, where you list the name that you prefer to be addressed by. M 23:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the policy is getting watered down a bit. The entity under the old wording doesn't have to state that they prefer one term, they could also simply use one name most the time without explicitly stating that they prefer the name; I don't get the feeling that the current wording captures that idea.

As for the first sentence of the self-identifying section, does this mean we should mention it, or that we should title the article this way?" Yes, this guideline is designed to select a single title for an article. It is stating (and is commonly interpreted to mean) that articles should be titled by the name that an animate entity chooses to use for itself, whether or not others think they have the right to use that name; this policy helps us avoid taking sides in political disputes and helps wikipedia remain neutral. Here's what I think its trying to say: Where ~~self-identifying names~~ self-selected names are available, they should be used within articles. Misplaced Pages does not take any position on whether an ~~self-identifying~~ entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 02:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I've changed it to reflect this. I've also removed some of the wording:

These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. -- we don't care how important a person's key identity is to them, we just want to avoid conflict
This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names. -- we don't officially advise our editors to take a more cautious stance towards 'self-identifying' entities specifically. All entities, including the ones that think that, say, "creation scientists" shouldn't be called scientists, are worthy of respect.
this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name. -- no, it's not like we're titling articles "the artist who calls himself the artist formally known as prince"

and so on. I've also excluded the verbose examples as per WP:POLICY#Content, if someone wants to start an essay using those examples, that would be fine. If I've missed anything, please let me know and I'll change it again. M 03:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

That's certainly a great improvement in terms of presentation - at least we can see what it's trying to say now. I think, though, that you've actually strengthened it in terms of substance - where previously it talked about using names within articles, it now says that the self-identifying name "should be used" as the article title. Clearly there are exceptions to this (otherwise it would conflict with WP:NC) - perhaps this should be reflected in the wording? For example, we could delete "even if they do not have a right to use that name" (as redundant), and replace it with "subject to other Misplaced Pages naming conventions."--Kotniski (talk) 07:41, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The lack of clarity in the previous wording means that we can't figure out what the consensus was actually for. I began my rewrite by basically copying Kraftlos's statement, "that articles should be titled by the name that an animate entity chooses to use for itself, whether or not others think they have the right to use that name". My guess is that people explained things somewhat clearly somewhere in this talk page history, got consensus, and then wrote something that was extremely difficult to understand without this context. I think that the intent was actually to talk about the naming, not the title of the article. The NC policy is huge (tldr) - which parts would this conflict with? (If it doesn't explicitly conflict, then we can just let them point to POL, which says policies win out over guidelines.) M 08:46, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, it seems to conflict with the overriding "use common name" principle, as well as many other specific naming conventions, such as those for monarchs. Generally the naming conventions pages are all mixed up, with different things being stated as rules in different places, and no clarity about what takes precedence over what (there was an idea some time ago to reorganize it all as a list of factors to be taken into account in naming decisions, which would have been more logical, but didn't happen).--Kotniski (talk) 09:13, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if we should mention this. It might imply that this can just be ignored because there's a policy. On the other hand, if someone actually identifies a conflict between, say, royal names and this page, the status of guideline and policy will soon be noted anyway. Provisos, and all that. M 23:26, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I think too much was removed. I have restored some of the sentences including the rationale for the policy and the briefer examples. With no rationale, the guidance simply looks arbitrary. I also think the long example regarding the Cabindans-Maputans is useful in explaining the reasoning, and if it is too long to go in the main text, it should be retained as a note. Xandar 23:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The rule is now sufficiently-clearly worded that examples are not needed. For the two insertions, can you think of a case where they would actually be needed? If not then we exclude them. The last sentence, before your revert, already justified things (to remain neutral). The insertions are actually rather controversial and conflict with established policy:

Misplaced Pages is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is. -- No, if I say 'bombay' is the correct name of bombay, you can't tell me that, no, "mumbai" is actually the correct name. It isn't. It's merely one of many names, but the only type out of all of them that we can choose consistently.
not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. -- hell no. We don't take any position on what is or isn't a key statement of one's own identity. That's not the reason we have this rule, the reason is simply to avoid conflict.
This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names. -- no, we are not going to instruct our editors to give these entities special treatment or consideration
Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles. -- I have no idea what this means, but

Your revert makes me somewhat impatient, since I've explained in detail above why these statements not only are bad, but violate the WP:POLICY policy and the WP:NPOV policy. I'll be taking them out shortly. Please, read the discussion carefully before reinserting these points. M 00:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with M that these reinserted statements are best left out. But I still think we must state explicitly that there are other naming conventions that may modify or take precedence over this "rule". We don't want to mislead the people reading this page - it's not enough that we know (or other parties to disputes will know) that other policies exist; we must mention this key information so that all readers understand.--Kotniski (talk) 08:49, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I now think that you may be right - I'd support something like "This does not override standards, such as _ and _". Since nobody is opposing it, you should probably just add it. M 09:36, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

All right, let's try. (I also made a slight rewording to the clause about rights).--Kotniski (talk) 09:50, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

" Note that this does not override naming convention standards, such as the use of common names."

I now realize that this specific choice of example might be, uh, problematic. The point of this section is to settle disputes on this issue, and it looks like Misplaced Pages:Naming_conventions#Use_common_names_of_persons_and_things pretty much hands off judgement to this guideline. Looks like "use common names, if that fails, see naming conflict". So it looks like we don't really need the clause, since namecon asserts no conflicts. It really needs to be worded better though. This may need broader discussion. M 11:26, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I've restored the original wordings you have deleted. you do not have the right to alter these policies on your own. There is an attempt being made here to subvert the established policy, confusing the issue of self-identifying names with that of common usage of English forms of those names, and usage of terms for non self-identifying bodies. It is denial of use of self-identifying names that is POV, as the guideline states. What we are seeing here seems to be less brevity and cutting out excess wording, but a misjudged attempt to change the policy. Xandar 00:34, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I do have that right, anyone can edit policy. Incidentally, this page isn't policy. Anyway, read the above discussion. I stated that I think this very clearly overrides common names, and removed the wording that would have changed that. I understand what your general feeling on this issue is, and I'm pretty sure that I agree with you. Let's move on to discussing the specifics - why is "These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity", something that you think belongs as a guideline? Read my objections to it above. M 00:54, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Agree with you on that sentence, but I don't follow your reasoning about this "clearly overriding common names". Surely the fact that Naming Conventions says "if that fails" means that we apply the common name criterion first, and if it isn't clear how to apply that, we look to Naming Conflict for further guidance. In other words, it's common names that override self-identifying names - and as I said before, we should say so here to avoid misleading people. Or if that isn't the case, we should bring it up at the main naming conventions talk page (in fact, I think I will).--Kotniski (talk) 03:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok. I think the general principle here is that we want to be fair - that is, almost ignorantly equal. A common name having, say, 80% more google hits should not be preferred to a preferred name. Someone can argue that google misrepresents. But nobody can argue that it's not a preferred name. M 04:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

After reading some of the discussion from around July 1, 2005 when this wording was first introduced, it seems very clear to me that use of common names was very important to this policy; this section actually used to be a subsection of How to make a choice among controversial names; which in the 2005 revision states:

The three key principles are:

The most common use of a name takes precedence;

If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name except for conflicting scientific names;

If neither the common name nor the official name is prevalent, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

Anyway, I think that this subsection was intended to flesh out the third point, but it ended up being really muddied. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 06:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

That looks a much more logical setup (though I'm not sure what "official name" is supposed to mean, or how the second point relates to naming conventions actually used for science articles these days, which have changed since 2005).--Kotniski (talk) 08:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Note that shortly after those points in that revision, there's a table that implies that the three have equal weight, and that it's best 2/3. M

Kraftlos, the 2005 version of the policy you refer to ALSO contains this text, which people are now trying to delete Types of entities

A distinction should be drawn between a self-identifying entity and an inanimate entity. An inanimate geographical feature such as a sea or mountain does not have its own name for itself (obviously). Thus the English name Mount Everest is just as arbitrary as the local name, Qomolangma. The use of "Mount Everest" as the definitive term in Misplaced Pages is simply a matter of convenience, as the mountain is far more widely known by the English name than by its native Tibetan one.
A city, country or people, by contrast, is a self-identifying entity: it has a preferred name for itself. The city formerly called Danzig now calls itself Gdańsk. The country formerly called Burma now calls itself Myanmar. The people formerly called Eskimos now call themselves Inuit. These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names.

These statements are important because Kotniski, in particular, seems to be losing track of the important difference between self-identifying and inanimate entities in naming conflicts, and seem to want to apply rules meant for inanimate entities to self-identifying ones. Xandar 10:21, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, rather than losing track of the difference, I just don't believe this difference is particularly important. Which rules do you think can't be applied to self-identifying entities? (And all this discussion about 2005 texts is rather moot - we should be discussing what best describes current practice, not what a few people came up with four years ago.)--Kotniski (talk) 10:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Kotniski, your response came while I was writing the response below. But the difference in the two types of name is referred to below. If we are going by rules applied to inanimate objects then the article currently at Mumbai should be at Bombay and the article currently at Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints should be at Mormon Church. This would cause unending conflict, therefore these rules have been set out, giving us a simple, clean method of short-circuiting that conflict. Having just been involved in 12 months of such conflict, changing this guidance is NOT a good idea. Xandar 10:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

But the point is that these rules are not followed in all cases. Sometimes the self-identifying name is chosen, sometimes not (as with Burma, and probably Macedonia and Ireland). There are many factors to be considered in choosing titles for articles, and the passage as it stood (and stands) seems to place far too much emphasis on just one.--Kotniski (talk) 11:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

M, (why the sinister name?), I cannot see the objection to the passages you highlight and want to remove.

Misplaced Pages is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is.

Just saying that the guidance exists to remain neutral, is a claim, not a full rationale. The fact that you argue with the guidance using the example of Bombay, actually shows how useful it is. You say "you can't tell me that, no, "mumbai" is actually the correct name. It isn't". This is precisely why this sentence exists. We can argue which is the correct name for months. The sentence makes the principle clear that we use the name actually used by the entity, and short-circuit that fruitless discussion. The change as proposed would reopen the Calcutta, Bombay and Mormon Church naming conflicts - all of which would probably come up on a google search far more under the names I have just listed than by their self-identifying names.

not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity.

Again this sentence is not asking us to take any position on what is or isn't a key statement of one's own identity. It is saying that we cut through this argument by using the SI name - so avoiding conflict.

This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names.

This is the basis of the guidance, giving entities with self-identifying names special consideration. I may prefer to call Gdansk, Danzig, (it's more historical, and a lot easier to pronounce) but to avoid conflict we use Gdansk because that is what the entity currently names itself (for whatever reason)

Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles

Again this seems quite clear to me. What is the problem? Xandar 10:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar's statement about Gdansk is completely false. First of all, we do call it Danzig when referring to the long period when it was a German city; after much and acrimonious discussion, we have agreed (see the mentions of it in WP:NCGN) to do so because that's what our sources do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:30, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break 2

Is "These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity." - is this going a bit too far here? I'm under the impression that as far as we're concerned, names are arbitrary, and it doesn't matter one bit whether or not they are "key statements of identity". Other groups make "key statements of non-identity", too. Am I missing something here? What do other editors think about this? M 12:22, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with your impression. Well, I wouldn't say names are arbitrary, but we certainly don't choose them because they are statements of anything. This sort of irrelevant philosophizing has to stay out of the guideline - it just blurs whatever concrete advice we're actually giving.--Kotniski (talk) 12:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I still don't see the harm in that sentence. Muhammad Ali is in part a statement of identity, as are Mumbai and Gdansk. But I don't see irreparable harm in removing that particular rheoretical justification. Xandar 21:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I'll take it out. Consider this: should we include the sentence "Objections to a group calling themselves Palestinians are key statements of the opposing side's identity"? It's as true as the statement we have. The statement takes the moral side of the self-namers, all we do is arbitrarily choose them for entirely practical reasons. M 00:00, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The argument that an OBJECTION to someone else using a name has as much validity in identity as the actual USE of a name by a person, is dealt with in the Cabindan-Maputan example. In other words, since the Israelis choose not to primarily self-identify as Palestinians, their objection to Palestinian Arabs using the title is a POV, while the Arabs' use of the title is a Fact. If both Jews and Arabs primarily identified themselves as "Palestinians", then Misplaced Pages would have to use the name for both, and disambiguate. Xandar 01:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Uh, their objection is also Fact. If I choose to sanely self-identify as God, the Prophet Mohammed, or the Blessed Virgin Mary, and you don't choose to identify yourself by any of these terms, is my self-identification somehow superior to your refusal to accept me as such? No.
Now, for another part: "Misplaced Pages is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is." -- our article titles don't actually declare what the correct name is. Even if one side was right, morally, that a name should not be used, we wouldn't care. M 02:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I must agree with M. That a group calls itself something is a fact; that another group objects to it calling itself that is also a fact. That it has/hasn't the right to call itself that is a POV; that the other group is right/wrong to object is also a POV. At Misplaced Pages we should report all the facts (and POVs as attributed opinions); and when choosing names, be as neutral as we can - by choosing the names most commonly used in (good) English. In most cases it will be the self-chosen name anyway, but not always.--Kotniski (talk) 09:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not any less neutral to use the name that the self-identifying entity chooses for itself, the guideline does state to cover the naming conflict if it is notable in the article. It would be POV to take sides as to who has the "right" to use that name, but the policy simply gives us a way to avoid discussing subjective arguments of who can/should use a particular name. I don't see what's so hard about that, it's totally neutral. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 18:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

This is mostly about the wording that implied this, which I removed and Xandar replaced. The policy should also be used in conjunction with many other naming policies - if everyone knows some mafia hitman as Mike "Fatts" Smith, it doesn't matter that he sincerely prefers to be called "Little Mikey". M 20:07, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I've already pointed out important examples of where the most well known name in English is not the self-identifying name. Altering the guideline would revive all those (and many other) disputes. There is no good reason for doing this, since it would be to perversely replace a simple, easily followed and justifiable set of guidance with a confusing overlap of contradictory principles. (self-identified name Vs "Best known name in English). That would be regression not progress, and a recipe for endless disputes. As far as giving yourself a famous name others think you are not entitled to, we have a key example of this in Madonna and Tom Jones, who are listed under their self-identified names, even though there are other claimants with the same name. As far as the mafia hitman goes, I'm sure if he wanted to be known as Little Mikey, people would call him Little Mikey. Xandar 01:16, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This misses the point entirely. Madonna is called Madonna because that's what people call her. Mike, despite self-identifying as 'Little Mikey', is called 'Mike Smith' or 'Fatts' by everyone, and Misplaced Pages would have a nice article for him over at Mike Smith, not at Little Mikey. So sometimes, we just don't care what you want to call yourself. This isn't the only reason or example, but it's a counterexample that proves that the statement 'self-ident names are above common names' is flatly false. As for the actual page: "Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles." - what is this supposed to mean, and isn't that already covered? M 02:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

"I've already pointed out important examples of where the most well known name in English is not the self-identifying name." Yes, so have we - and in some cases the WP article is titled with the self-identifying name, while in others it is titled with the well-known name. There are clearly (at least) two factors at work here - it is simply misleading to imply on this page that the self-identifying name is the one we always choose, while the main WP:NC page (which also has problems) hardly mentions that criterion at all. --Kotniski (talk) 08:44, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This guideline exists to supplement WP:NC. It is to help solve problems - which it does by being CLEAR. Kotniski seems to want to make the guidance less clear and more ambiguous. That will help no-one. If there are a few places where the guidance isn't applied (although in the majority of places it is applied very successfully), that doesn't invalidate the guidance. Using made-up examples is not helpful here since there are no parameters to measure. Self-identifying names are generally clear, unambiguous and carry fewer POV connotations. So-called "well-known" names often have none of these advantages. Xandar 01:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Huh? Well-known names are just as likely to be clearer and less ambiguous ("Roman Catholic Church" is certainly less ambiguous than "Catholic Church", for example), and if there is a dispute about the "right to use a name", then choosing the commonly used name certainly seems a more NPOV method than choosing the self-chosen name, which by definition is supporting one of the POVs. And there is certainly nothing CLEAR about laying down a principle on one page which is potentially in conflict with another principle on another page, and not admitting on either page that other principles exist and need to be taken into account simultaneously. If you believe that self-chosen names take precedence over common names, why not try to get that principle accepted at WP:NC? It won't be, of course, so why lie to readers of this page that this principle is somehow paramount? There's no advantage to clarity if what you're saying is wrong.--Kotniski (talk) 10:11, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

The entire naming conventions page needs to be cleaned up. I have no idea why certain sub-pages, like this one, are deferred to when they're just a guideline. All of this needs to be in one place... M 18:00, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

That may be, but let's try to make this guideline the best that it can be, given the circumstances. Frankly, this is about a conflict of names; that is, it refers to instances when using the common name doesn't yield a clear distinction between two entities with a claim to the same name, or one entity with more than one apparently viable name. It is not saying "in the case of self-identifying entities, always use the name they call themselves by." rather it is resolving the conflict by bringing in some extra objective criteria to help determine which name is the most common. It doesn't conflict with the common name principle, rather it expands upon and clarifies the idea. The guideline needs work, but I think it is entirely necessary as a support for NPOV and Naming Conventions. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:56, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

I think this issue was moved up to WT:Naming conventions. M 16:28, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

The fundamental primary principle of our naming conventions is the use of the most common name - WP:NAME starts with a section "Use the most easily recognized name" and the first general convention listed is "Use common names of persons and things".

The sentence "Where any persons or groups (organizations, cities, political parties, fringe movements) have chosen to refer to themselves by a certain name, the titles of the articles that cover them should use that name" is not compatible with this general principle. Though these names may coincide with the most common and recognised name, when they do not they must instead defer to the most-common name. Anything saying otherwise (such as this sentence) has no wide consensus, is not supported by our general naming principles, and should be removed unless endorsed by the community in a centralised discussion. Knepflerle (talk) 22:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

(To clarify: that self-defined names should be mentioned and explained in the article text is of course natural, and no censorship of this should occur for political reasons. However, use of a self-defining name as the article title is, however, not endorsed over a more commonly used name). Knepflerle (talk) 22:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

That's your opinion. And in defiance of long-standing policy. The standing policy defers to this guideline on self-identifying names. One reason is because it is CLEAR. We use the name a person self-identifies by to avoid conflict. Using the "most easily recognised name" is ambiguous in these cases, since which is most "easily recognised" between Catholic Church and Rioman Catholic Church or between Orthodox and Eastern orthodox, or between Latter Day Saints and Mormon? Xandar 23:13, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Utterly incorrect.

it wasn't my opinion - it was direct quotation from the policies.
there is no longer standing policy on this matter than WP:NAME.
WP:NAME, WP:UE, WP:COMMONNAMES, WP:OFFICIALNAMES are united on promotion of common names over self-identification or officialnes; this is the only document out of step
WP:OFFICIALNAMES lists some very good reasons why picking self-identified names does not eradicate all arguments.

Knepflerle (talk) 23:55, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

...and this lot are hardly unbiased notification to take part in the debate, are they? Not cool at all.

I have asked one editor with considerable relevant experience to come and give his own opinion. Knepflerle (talk) 00:19, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

And on that cue:

On the procedural point, this page is not policy, and never has been; it's a guideline. WP:NAME says The naming conflict guideline may help resolve disagreements over the right name to use; the added emphasis should make clear that NAME does not "defer" to this page in any way that would make it more than a guideline. Its other reference to this page says that controversial names, once established, should not be changed without discussion, and suggests (correctly) that we have better things to do with Misplaced Pages than engaging in such discussion - which includes changing to "self-identifying" names.

There is no consensus to always use self-identifying names - or we would not be having this discussion. Is anybody but Xandar defending that position? It is one of the criteria we should consider - and we may vary on how deeply we consider it.

To pick an example apart from current controversies: we use Diggers, Roundhead, Huguenot; the first have several self-identifying names, but even seventeenth century specialists might not recognize them - no one else would have a chance.

The "Cabinda" example I have spoken of at #"pro-life": it's a badly-chosen pseudonym for a Balkan conflict, now settled in a poll approved by ArbCOm, and not under the principle of "self-identification" Therefore this is not descriptive. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The consensus is the guidance that has existed on this page since 2005, and it has been supported on this page. You suddenly dropped into the argument from nowhere and decided to change a long-standing policy that would cause mayhem on WP if reversed. That consensus policy needs widespread CONSENSUS - not two or three people who show up suddenly on a talk page to reverse - as you seem to want to. The attempt to reverse the polcy without notifying ANYONE, and then to transfer the talk elsewhere because you could not gain consensus here is certainly not cool. I have merely informed interested parties you did not bother to inform. Xandar 00:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Also WP:NAME refers to this guidance for rational and specifics on naming policy with regard to controversial names. WP:COMMONNAMES does as well, and WP:OFFICIALNAMES is not even Guidance, but an essay. Xandar 00:56, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I have no obligation; I'm not Knepferle; I'm his third opinion.
I have cited, above, everything from this page that WP:NC endorses. Its mandate on controversial names is incompatible with the position Xandar defends. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Xandar confused you for Knepferle, I think he was replying to his comments above, not just your's. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 02:53, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I want to make a few comments on today's discussion, above:

Let's not attempt to privilege one editor, over others. I refer to Knepflerle's comment that "this lot are hardly unbiased notification." Xandar contacted me and some others who have just been involved in a protracted dispute over article naming, which I mediated. I do not regard myself as biased on this topic. But I do have some recent experience in interpretation of the Naming convention policy and the Naming conflict guideline.
It appears that some editors have been attempting to change the guideline, absent consensus on the talk page. Let's keep in mind the WP guidance for all policies and guidelines, which appears at the top of each: "...Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page."
From reading the above discussion, there seems to be some confusion as to whether there is a need to merely clean up the wording, or change the guideline. There is a big difference. But at least one editor seems to want to throw out the guidance on naming conflicts. Please, let's all bear in mind that the policy specifically refers editors to the guideline for resolution of naming conflicts. This is important. It indicates that when the naming convention (most common name) is disputed, one refers to the guideline and its emphasis on self-identification.

Let's all take it slow. Please stop the reverts. There is no need to rush. Policy decisions are important. Sunray (talk) 03:56, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar - so much to correct in what you wrote.

"The attempt to reverse the polcy without notifying ANYONE, and then to transfer the talk elsewhere because you could not gain consensus here is certainly not cool". I did not move any discussion anywhere. I am not Kotniski, nor am I an "ally" who participated before tonight. I left a short message at WT:NC, but contributed here.
"I have merely informed interested parties you did not bother to inform." - read WP:CANVAS about campaigning. It was the obvious bias in your notification that was the issue, and took it beyond "mere informing"
"You suddenly dropped into the argument from nowhere and decided to change a long-standing policy that would cause mayhem on WP if reversed" - the wording as it stood when I edited it was not long-standing. For example, with my emphasis added:

"Compromise" version "Where any persons or groups (organizations, cities, political parties, fringe movements) have chosen to refer to themselves by a certain name, the titles of the articles that cover them should use that name"
2005 version "Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles. Misplaced Pages does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name"

There is a significant difference between the two: the use in titles does not have consensus since 2005. This was not included in the text back then, precisely because it is incompatible with WP:NC if it is not also the most common name. At least the version at it stands does not promote this falsehood, but it is not completely clear - hence the quotations I added from the relevant policies and guidelines. My edit took the guidance much closer to the 2005 version than the compromise by removing this new non-consensus insertion.

(from WT:NC) "It was an attempted compromise with M and Kotniski. Since that compromise has been broken by coming here, and completely reversing the policy unilaterally." - I have nothing to do with any compromises between you, those editors or anyone else. Instead of immediate and complete obliteration of my edit using blanket reversion because some "truce" had been broken, examining it would have revealed that my version was much closer to that of the 2005 version (i.e. talking about use in article text), and provided further guidance directly quoted from WP:UE.

Sunray.

"Xandar contacted me and some others..." - as above; this should have taken the form of a neutral notification. Seeing as you (like the others commenting at WT:NC) appear not to have noticed that my edit took the advice back closer to the 2005 original makes my point about non-neutral campaigning, really.

Let's keep all the bureaucratic and procedural whinges here. I will comment on Knepferle's position after he restates it.

From my PoV, this page is not policy; it is a guideline. WP:NC makes its subpages policy exactly as far as it explicitly endorses them. It does not mention self-identifying names; it mentions this page exactly twice, once to recommend that this page be consulted for guidance, and once to discourage editing solely to change names.

Guideline pages are, by policy, descriptive, not prescriptive; the first question is "what does WP actually do?", always. The reason guideline pages came to be is so we don't have to make the same points over and over again; that's all they are. In this case, I have some familiarity with WP:RM; it is certainly not the regular thing for usage to be overturned for self-identifying names - in fact, I cannot think of an instance.

WP:Consensus exists only for as long as there is general agreement on a point; when there isn't, it doesn't exist - and guidelines should state what is consensus and no more. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

In summary - guidance on the article text, as per the 2005 version is fine, and you will find that nothing in my edit contradicted this. Anyone want to actually read and comment on the wording I proposed in my edit, this time? Knepflerle (talk) 09:35, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

However we all got into this discussion, we are here. Let's proceed. Knepflerle, I'm not yet clear on what you are proposing. Perhaps that is my own inability or perhaps it is due to all the crosstalk about process. I'm not clear whether your concerns have to do with language (i.e., grammar) or policy. Would you be willing to spell it out? Sunray (talk) 16:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Though there may or may not be widespread consensus for saying that self-identifying names override common names, the reinstatement of the philosophical talk about rocks and leaves giving themselves names is not appropriate. It should be noted that Xandar (talk · contribs · count) has a clear COI in editing this policy: 489 edits to Catholic Church, 767 to its talk page (61, 37 are the respective counts for the second most edited article/talk). Xandar is the third-most-common editor of that page. Note that forceful editing of a policy to support your view in a discussion is very much against policy, especially if such a conflict of interest is not very clearly disclosed. It's ok to bring up issues, and even change policy to address some current problem that you're having to prompt discussion, but a massive revert is entirely unacceptable. M 18:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you; utterly fascinating. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps we should consider starting a centralized RfC on this issue. M 19:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that the changes proposed to the naming policy will improve it. I would also like to point out that those initiating and supporting the change were the few editors who argued against the consensus in the recent Catholic Church mediation on naming the article. This mediation went on for six months and included over 20 Misplaced Pages editors of all faiths and no faith. The conclusion reached irked those few who have now come here to change the policy, a policy that has been serving well for over three years. I don't think that is a good faith reason to change the policy especially since the proposals are not better than the existing policy.NancyHeise 19:49, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry I missed it; but it seems to be those who prevailed in this badly advertised mediation who changed this guideline first. Since it doesn't seem to have actually settled the issue, it should be replaced by an RfC, which would be open to anybody. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:06, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Please list these editors, and provide a proper link to where they voiced their opposition. I was uninvolved in that discussion, and initially edited the section to be clearer and therefore stronger. When editing policy, it is very important to consider the implications on all other disputes, not just the one you were involved with. Given the evidence provided in this discussion, it seems clear that preferred names are not, as a rule, used in favor of common names. M 20:12, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The mediation was all legit and the consultation was in keeping with policy and guidelines. And all of that is irrelevant to a change in the policy or guideline, as far as I can tell. Let's stop caviling over people and process and get on with substantive questions. Sunray (talk) 20:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I certainly did not take part in whatever discussion this was. I oppose this policy of preferring self-identifying names in general, as being the imposition of a defensive and apologetic POV; but if I had realized that this was the content dispute which was distorting a policy page, I would have chosen other examples above: the Boxers, for instance. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Nevertheless, the guideline has been changed from its previous stable state. As I understand it, Xandar has merely been trying to put it back to the way it was until we reach a consensus here on changing it. Keep in mind that the editors he notified from Catholic Church (myself included) are not all on the same "side". He was not vote farming, he was just looking for more voices that were familiar with the topic. As I have done with some of the original 2005 editors (albeit unsuccessfully). Let's please stop throwing around accusations (both those in favor if change and those against) and let's get down to actually discussing this issue (without the constant edits to the main page). --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 20:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

That raises the perennial question. What happens if something was written into a guideline and is now disputed? I think the argument "we get our way until we are overriden by (what we admit to be) consensus" is inherently a mark of bad faith. But this deserves a section of its own. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:33, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Please, everyone, stick to content rather than contributors. The guideline has been stable on this question for over two years. Some editors are proposing a change. Let's hear more about that. Would the proponents please indicate what they want changed and why? Sunray (talk) 20:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

And if you want to have us join you in consensus, it is up to you to give some reasons why we should support this guidance. As for me, there are clear reasons why it should be struck:

It's not what Misplaced Pages actually does; I've never seen a "self-identifying name" chosen over usage, and I watch WP:RM routinely.
It would tend to impose an apologetic and defensive POV. We have a difference only when there is a commonly used name, and it's not what the group uses for itself. When that happens, there's a reason that English doesn't use the self-identifying name: and it's usually that the name itself is special pleading.
It is not, by hypothesis, what English calls the subject of the article, which defies the policy of having our titles optimized for lay readers, not for specialists - and even more so, not for special pleaders. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:57, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I listed in a section below a few examples of what PManderson/Septentrionalis says does not happen. I repeat them here, for convenience:

Guangzhou is the self-identifying name for the city far better known as Canton.
- If so, it should be moved; but we use Guangzhou, like Beijing, on the grounds that the pinjin is now better known. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the self-identifying name for the Church far more widely known as the Mormon Church
Kolkata is the self-identifying name of the city better known in the English-speaking world as Calcutta
Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is the self-identifying name for the organisation far better known as the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria is the self-identifying name for the organisation far better known as the Coptic Church.
Unification Church is the self-identifying name for the organisation far better known as the the Moonies.
Royal Navy is the self-identifying name for the organisation far better known as the the British Navy. Xandar 11:20, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Agenda

I cannot follow this higgledy-piggledy section further. I hope it will be divided into topics; I deplore this removal of subheads. We are discussing at least three or four topics at the same time; three of them procedural.

I propose, therefore, the following subheads:

What is policy?
What is consensus?
Is there a conflict of interest?
What is the proper name of the Roman Catholic Church- although that should go elsewhere.
And the one topic of real interest to this guideline, which should be discussed separately from all the others: What reasons are there to give or deny weight to self-identifying names? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Church/Catholic Church is not directly relevant here. It is an interesting example, but we're not here to have that argument again. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 20:31, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it is not relevant. Questions about the nature of policy, what constitutes consensus and whether there a conflict of interest are also irrelevant, IMO. Sunray (talk) 21:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Most certainly not irrelevant. The false claim that a minority can claim to be "consensus" until they are overwhelming outvoted is the root of most of our WP:OWN violations in WP space. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Subheads

Proposed change(s)
Rationale for change(s)
Discussion

Is there more than this to discuss? Sunray (talk) 21:02, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is what this discussion has always lacked: a rationale for the text being defended, that is: for the use of self-identifying names.

For an example of this at another guideline, see here; I'm sure it's been done better than this, but this was recent and to hand.
To say "it's consensus" is insufficient; if this were consensus, we would not be be having this discussion. Consensus is almost unanimous agreement - and those who defend here are a minority. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:41, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

- And who knows; if one were presented, it might persuade me. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you referring to article names or a disputed name within an article? If you are concerned about article names, the principles and procedures for choosing among controversial names is pretty straightforward and can be found here. If it is a disputed name within an article, the guidance is here.

And neither of those has a shred of justification, nor any evidence that they reflect consensus. No consensus has ever been cited; no discussion has ever been cited.

The process for changes to policies and guidelines is the following: One who proposes a substantive change, must first seek consensus on the talk page. So far, there has been lots of chatter, but I've not seen a clear proposal nor a rationale for change. Sunray (talk) 03:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Misquotation: What {{guideline}} says is that guidelines must reflect consensus. When consensus ceases to exist, the way to reflect that is for the guideline to be silent until a new consensus emerges.
Falsehood: I presented three myself:
1. The former text, which demands the use of self-identifying names, is not what Misplaced Pages actually does; I've never seen a "self-identifying name" chosen over usage, and I watch WP:RM routinely.
2. It would tend to impose an apologetic and defensive POV. We have a difference only when there is a commonly used name, and it's not what the group uses for itself. When that happens, there's a reason that English doesn't use the self-identifying name: and it's usually that the name itself is special pleading
3. It is not, by hypothesis, what English calls the subject of the article, which defies the policy of having our titles optimized for lay readers, not for specialists - and even more so, not for special pleaders. (to which I add)
4. (new) No reason has been presented, amidst all the It's our page, and the three of us declared it consensus back in 2005, noise why we should use self-identifying names.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

No one has claimed ownership, and as far as I know, none of us in this discussion took part in the 2005 discussion. That's a really inaccurate summary of the opposing view. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 06:19, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

The text protested, which is not what we do, and which appeals prescriptively to a very dubious metaphysic, is:

A city, country, people or person by contrast, is a self-identifying entity: it has a preferred name for itself. The city formerly called Danzig now calls itself Gdańsk; the man formerly known as Cassius Clay now calls himself Muhammad Ali. These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names.

Sorry, I'm a nominalist; I believe the French Misplaced Pages does well in using Londres to discuss the city which calls itself London and that they are not trampling on a "key statement of its identity"; they are communicating with their readership. Since this ends in one of the weakest pieces of guidance I have ever seen, next to "please consider", I advocate doing away with this altogether. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

You speak of misquotation. Yet, whenever I have referred to a policy or guideline I have been careful to copy the exact wording of the policy instrument. I'm afraid that you have wrongly quoted from the Guideline template, above. The actual text reads "When editing this page, please ensure that your revision reflects consensus."

Very well; quoting language against its meaning and intent. Restoring language which lacks support by consensus fails to reflect consensus, since there is none. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Now, it was you, who said: "I cannot follow this higgledy-piggledy section further." Well put, IMO. So once again, please make your proposal. I would suggest that you not bother with further discussions of process. Instead, in a new section below, use the following format: "1. Proposed change"; "2. Rationale". We will then discuss it and, hopefully, come to some agreement. You may say: "but I have proposed this before." And that may well be true, but honestly I have no will to separate the fly shit from the pepper. Sunray (talk) 06:16, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree, I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out what is being proposed now. I just see a lot of accusations and misrepresented arguments. Please, can someone make some sort of proposal. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 06:21, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposals

A: To remove

from this guideline, for the reasons in both sections immediately above. I will take any further cry of "what reasons?" as evidence of bad faith.

B: to have a reason why we should use self-identifying names when they are not common English usage (as they often and reasonably are), followed by a demonstration of consensus that we now agree on it. I will not agree to any such proposal without a reason.

There are, of course, intermediate possibilities; but all of them require some reason why we should mention self-identification at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:03, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

You object to the example given in the guideline. It is not clear to my why. I do not understand your objection to the concept of self-identification. Would you be willing to elaborate? Sunray (talk) 15:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

It is not the case that we use Gdansk (insofar as we do) on the grounds that it self-identifies as Gdansk; we use it on the ground that that is what English writing calls the city. See WP:NCGN, and its early archives. The motivations of the editors involved in the discussion are another question - although "not beyond conjecture".
I decline to elaborate further on what I have already said, one section up, on self-identification, at much length, until a reason is given why we should consider it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
To summarize briefly, however: This paragraph only makes any difference when there is a self-identifying name and a name common in English, and they are not the same. In that rare case, the self-identifying name is
- Not what Misplaced Pages does in practice
- Often tendentious and POV
- Potentially obscure enough not to communicate with our readers, contrary to policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
Unless a reason to retain this paragraph is supplied in, say, a day, I shall remove it. There is no consensus, and no present reason for those who object to join one. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Let's not start an edit war. By my count, four editors have argued for a change (though for different reasons). Four have said "don't change it." Of those some, including me, have said let's look at a rationale for changing it. Thus there is no consensus to modify the guideline yet. Please respect the groundrule for changes in policy: "Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus." Sunray (talk) 16:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Three editors objected to this before I was called in; there is no consensus - and any edit which preserves that section fails to reflect consensus. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

O.K., your objection is clear now. However, the elimination of that example would leave a gap in the guideline that would affect its structure. So that begs the question of what we would replace it with.

Your disinclination to repeat yourself creates a problem for me. I do not doubt that you have explained your views, above. Unfortunately for some of us, your rationale about changes to the guideline was interleaved with commentary about consensus and other matters of process. In consequence, I was unable to follow your reasoning.

You ask for a reason why self-identification should be considered. I'm not one of the original drafters of the guideline, but the concept has always struck me as important. Is not self-identification simply the right of an individual or entity to name itself? I've always considered that to be an important principle in naming. Sunray (talk) 16:00, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

No. It is not. We do not adjudicate copyrights or trademarks - we describe things and events in English. That is already guidance; see WP:MOSTRADE for one example: we do not acknowledge the "right" of PR offices to respell names, we use what English uses. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Surely the example you want to remove has nothing to do with trademarks. Sunray (talk) 16:14, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

There are two examples proposed to be removed: Clay/Ali and Gdanzig. Do either of them illustrate the principle that they are claimed to illustrate? If a horse had its name changed from CC to MA, would we (WP editors) treat that situation any differently from the case of a human who chose the name himself? If Gdansk had been a mountain rather than a city, would we treat it differently? I suspect not, or if so then only marginally. As I see it, not only are the examples misleading, but the whole passage that precedes them (about the difference between self-identifying and other entities) is misleading and has no place in a guideline.--Kotniski (talk) 16:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I certainly agree with you that the guideline is uneven and, in places, could be much more clearly written. We need to have a clear proposal on how to change it and then get consensus on that. Sunray (talk) 16:57, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

No, we should get rid of it. Where we cannot speak with consensus, we should be silent. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

This alleged right is incompatible with the rest of this guideline:Misplaced Pages does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name. People may have a right to say what they like about themselves, but not to force it on the rest of humanity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

In other words, WP merely employs the name of the self-identifying entity, without comment on it. Sunray (talk) 05:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

C. I would, however, be content to point out the obvious: that a self-identifying name is often English usage, and should always be considered when looking for common usage. Comments? Better phrasing? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:32, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The phrasing seems o.k. to me. However, I don't think you responded to my question about what you would replace the removed examples with. It seems to me that there needs to be some explanation (or example) of a self-identifying entity and how it might apply. Sunray (talk) 05:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Yep, that phrasing sounds fine. And I don't think those examples need replacing, just removing - self-identifying names that are also the common name are so much the norm that virtually any randomly selected person or organization will do, but it's hardly necessary to illustrate what everyone knows already. If there are to be examples, they should be of the more interesting situations: where we don't use the self-selected name because the common name is different (as with Burma); and where we prefer a self-selected name (if indeed we do) as one way of deciding between alternative common names (as is claimed to be the case with these churches).--Kotniski (talk) 08:13, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

However, some such example as the Emperor Norton, which we (finally) use because everybody does, might be helpful.

On the other side, avoiding current controversies, perhaps:

The Byzantine Empire (notoriously not a self-identifying name, but so widely used that it is difficult to imagine what to use instead and be remotely English). Lower Roman Empire, from Gibbon?
Charles III of England was certainly a self-identifying name; but how many readers will understand it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Septentriontalis has shown by his actions on the Catholic Church Talk page, where he has falsely accused the six month mediation and naming discussions as being not according to rules, and has tried to start another vote well before the six month limitation on new votes is up, what the motives are behind the sudden proposals to eviscerate this long-standing guidance. This is why he and Kotrniski can come up with no good reasons to change this guidance. The arguments put forward get more and more ridiculous. NO the Byzantine Empire is NOT a self-identifying name because the Byzantine Empire ceased to exist in 1452! That is why it does not self-identify. The same applies to Charles Edward Stewart. Self-identifying names are names used by entities to self-identify NOW. Got it? Xandar 00:22, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Self-identifying names are names used by entities to self-identify NOW. Really? The text doesn't say that; the text to which you reverted didn't say that; and we could be having the same discussion about entities which exist now - but with more acrimony about the facts. This is in any case presentism. We are expressly written as though a hundred years hence. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the naming dispute mentioned above, about the wiki article regarding the later Roman Empire (the so-called "Byzantine Empire"), I have to add that at least in my opinion, the term "Byzantine Empire" is much more controversial in that case, than "Roman Catholic Church" is for the RCC, because "Roman Catholic" is still self-identifying usage, but that empire never called itself "Byzantine Empire" (it called itself officially as "Roman Empire" or the "Empire of the Romans", unofficially it was also called "Romania"), the alternative "common name" for it is Eastern Roman Empire, which as far as I see is a more neutral term (although that is not self-identifying usage either, but it is the self-identifying name ("Roman Empire") with a disambiguation ("Eastern")). However, despite its negative and subjective POV connotations, that term ("Byzantine Empire"), at least at the moment, is still the name of that wiki article (and I'm not really expecting that it will actually get renamed too soon, although in my opinion it should). (But, the problem of that article name was actually discussed several times, among the last discussions was this one. But anyway, in case that article is renamed, it will not be renamed to simply "Roman Empire" (its self-identifying name), but "Eastern Roman Empire". Cody7777777 (talk) 09:07, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Now lets get to some real examples in the REAL world, of where this policy is followed in Misplaced Pages.

<sigh> So Bonnie Prince Charlie isn't part of the "REAL" world. Are the remaining Jacobites? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Guangzhou is the self-identifying name for the city far better known as Canton.

If so, it should be moved; but we use Guangzhou, like Beijing, on the grounds that the pinjin is now better known. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Who determines when something is "better known"? What groups is used to support these facts?--Rider 01:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the self-identifying name for the Church far more widely known as the Mormon Church
- And we use the formal name to disambiguate it from the other entities which are called Mormon like the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

That is accurate. The Reorganized chruch is actually called the Community of Christ and does not use the name Mormon and hasn't for generations. They want nother to do with the LDS Church. --Rider 01:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Kolkata is the self-identifying name of the city better known in the English-speaking world as Calcutta

No longer true, especially in the local dialect of English, which we use by WP:ENGVAR. WP:NCGN specifically discusses Kolkata and Mumbai. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Again, who says so. Do you have any references that support this claim. You are playing very loose with facts and presenting your opinion as if it was common knowledge. Either supply facts or desist from parading opinion as fact. --Rider 01:22, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is the self-identifying name for the organisation far better known as the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.
Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria is the self-identifying name for the organisation far better known as the Coptic Church.
- Perhaps we should move these obscure articles. I observe, however, that we also have the Coptic Catholic Church, which would tend to make Coptic Church ambiguous. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Unification Church is the self-identifying name for the organisation far better known as the the Moonies.
- We are following the usage of our sources, and works of general reference. If you can prove they are atypical of English usage as a whole, it should be moved. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Royal Navy is the self-identifying name for the organisation far better known as the the British Navy. Xandar 00:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
- Not true; certainly not in British English. Since the article has strong ties to Britain, WP:ENGVAR expects it to be in BE. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, you can say no no no, but this is evidence that this policy is the general practice of the encyclopedia. We do have lots of exceptions, additional guidelines, etc. Fact is, common name is just a guiding principle, as demonstrated here, there are many cases where the self-selected name is chosen over a more common name. This keeps WP from choosing sides, and avoids discussions of who has the right ot use names. With common name, we'd be selecting a name for self-identifying entity, hardly neutral. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 07:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

We wouldn't be; the English-speaking world would be - we'd just be reflecting that. Choosing a self-selected name (if there is a discussion about the right to use it) manifestly is choosing sides. Of course, as in the above examples, the common name we choose very often (almost always) is the self-selected name, but that's not the reason we choose it (at least, it may be one of the factors in the choice, which we continue to say in the guideline, but not the automatically decisive one).--Kotniski (talk) 09:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

That is a point I've been meaning to bring up. Most the time Common Name = Self-Identified Name. This is just for those minority of cases where there is a conflict between the two. Basically policy is to follow a consistent procedure every time to avoid choosing sides; however in practice it doesn't appear to be consistent at all. By the current wording, the default is to choose the self-identifying name unless another naming convention says otherwise. I guess we could change it to default as the common name, but sometimes that's not always clear. I think the way it is now is a much better default as it avoids stepping on any toes and simply describes the situation rather than prescribing that x organization has the right to the name because the word is most commonly used to describe it. And if there is a notable dispute over the name, it can be described in the article. Everybody wins. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:40, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Using the self-selected name, as this guidance clearly states, is NOT choosing sides. What is choosing sides is deciding to use a name other than that which a group or entity principally uses to describe itself. As the examples above show, Misplaced Pages enitors with conflicting POVs trying to decide that organisations and people should not be known by their proper names but by something else, would create unending conflict across Misplaced Pages. Hence this guideline in its stable 2005 wording. Septrionalis is already advocating some sort of hit squad to go round and try to enforce his new rule on articles across Wp that he knows little about... Xandar 10:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Note: by "the way it is now" I mean the way it was before this whole discussion began. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Because this guideline "clearly states" something, that makes it true? The fact that it states something that is manifestly false (that adopting the views of one side in a dispute is "not taking sides") is just one more reason to get rid of it. And this idea that the common name principle is some kind of "new rule" is equally absurd - it's been stated at the top of the main policy page for years. There is and always will be conflict about names at Misplaced Pages, but having a policy and guideline that contradict each other, and saying it has to stay like that because it's been "stable", is clearly not giong to help resolve any of these conflicts. --Kotniski (talk) 11:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

No one has talked about Common Name as if it were a new idea. No one stated that because something was written down on the page, it meant that it was true. Where are you getting that? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Frmo what Xandar wrote above. --Kotniski (talk) 11:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, that makes absolutely no sense. He didn't say anything remotely like that. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

"...as this guidance clearly states..." (as the only argument for saying that choosing sides is not choosing sides); "...try to enforce his new rule..." --Kotniski (talk) 11:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The "new rule" advocated by pmanderson/septrionalis is of course that self-identified names should no longer be used where they conflict with someone's judgement of the "common name." Such a new rule would cause endless disruption, as emphasised by himself when he suggested that article names such as I highlighted by changed. Xandar 12:12, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

But this is the old rule - WP:NC mentions common names above everything and doesn't mention self-identified names at all! How can you honestly not admit this simple fact?--Kotniski (talk) 12:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

How can you not admit that WP:NC is written in full awareness of the long-standing contents of this guideline, and actually defers to it on the issue of naming conflict by directing readers here? WP:NC states that common names are not proscriptive and that Naming conventions say when common names need not be used. This is such a Naming convention. Xandar 18:44, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

It says that the "Naming Conflict guideline may help resolve disagreements over the right name to use", not that it takes any kind of precedence. Anyway, it only says that because I wrote it diff - the previous wording implied that Naming Conflict dealt with conflicts between articles competing for the same title, which shows that WP:NC was written without awareness not only of the content of this this guideline, but of what kind of conflict it deals with. --Kotniski (talk) 08:18, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposal C

I believe the following text reflects Proposal C above, on which Sun Ray agrees. I have marked it disputed, in deference to Xandar's revert war; but I do not believe it says anything with which anybody else disagrees.

A self-identifying name is often English usage, and should always be considered when looking for common usage. Even when it is not official, as with the Emperor Norton, it will often come into usage. On the other hand, Charles III of England was his self-identification, but is not what we call Charles Edward Stuart; modern examples should be handled on the same terms, although examples are likely to be more controversial, and the facts of self-identification and usage may change.

Please comment, or tweak in the text. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:00, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar's comment

The text is totally unacceptable because A) No case has been made that the current effective guidance needs to be changed. B) The example Charles Edward Stuart is not representitive of self-identifying names, since the individual has been DEAD for 200 years, and can therefore not self-identify as anything. C) The guidance is full of weasel-words that produce a recipe for vagueness and conflict. the precision of stating the pre-eminence of self-identifying names has been replaced by confusing waffle that is a recipe for endless conflict, as well as a false example designed to undermine the concept of Self identifying names. Xandar 19:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

A) No case? For reference, I repeat the case below. I expect Xandar to ignore it again, but I welcome surprise.

B) The idea that only the living can identify themselves, or have names, or whatever Xandar claims here is entirely his invention; it's not in this guideline and never was.

C) Any weaselwords can be changed, if Xandar withdraws his request for protection, and specifies what they are. But this is the principle used in all our naming conventions, and does not involve deciding who speaks for an institution.

1. The former text, which demands the use of self-identifying names, is not what Misplaced Pages actually does; I've never seen a "self-identifying name" chosen over usage, and I watch WP:RM routinely.
2. It would tend to impose an apologetic and defensive POV. We have a difference only when there is a commonly used name, and it's not what the group uses for itself. When that happens, there's a reason that English doesn't use the self-identifying name: and it's usually that the name itself is special pleading
3. It is not, by hypothesis, what English calls the subject of the article, which defies the policy of having our titles optimized for lay readers, not for specialists - and even more so, not for special pleaders.
4. No reason has been presented, amidst all the noise why we should use self-identifying names. - and that is still true. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Not only the living can have names. But it is the living not the dead who have opinions on what their name should be, and who can be insulted and offended by improper naming and the traduction of their identity. And actually Bonnie Prince Charlie (which is his common name - not CE Stewart) didn't normally self-identify as Charles III, but as the Duke of Albany.

Let's have a look at the numbered claims in order.

1. Ample evidence has been put forward that Misplaced Pages does actually use self-identifying naming rules in practice. Examples listed elsewhere on this page include articles where the common names are Coptic Church, Mormon Church, Canton and British Navy. In addition to Macedonia where the widely used "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" was rejected in favour of the self-identified name.

- False throughout. The last is particularly offensive to me, because I participated in getting the settlement at WP:MOSMAC2. The ground of decision was that FYROM was uncommon and that the very common Macedonia was ambiguous. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

- - False again. The fact that Macedonia and Federal republic of Macedonia were the self-identifying names played a major part in the decision. FYROM is the name used by the United Nations, NATO, the EEC and numerous other international bodies even down to the Olympics and Eurovision Song Contest. However this, and strong Greek objections to the name were set aside because Macedonia is the self-identifying name. Xandar 12:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

2. This is just the opinion of PManderson. There is nothing "apologetic or defensive" about "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", "Mumbai", "Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria", or "Royal Navy". These are simply the names these bodies self-identify by, rather than names given to them by other people, who know much less about them - or what they do know may be distorted. Such names should normally be used because they are correct and less subject to POV bias. Hence the Romany and Inuit prefer to be identified by those names than the more common "Gypsy" and "Eskimo". This is not special pleading but accuracy.

Another mass of falsehood. Royal Navy" is usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

No. You are the one falsifying the facts. British Navy is standard usage in the English-speaking world. Just as it is "Australian Navy" for the Royal Australian Navy etc. The names used by wikipedia are the self-identifying PROPER names. Xandar 12:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

3. Yes, articles should be aimed at Lay readers, not specialists. However that is more about the elimination of jargon than using inaccurate names because they may be popular. Misplaced Pages's system of instant redirects actually helps in this, since "Mormon" and "British Navy" redirect instantly to the proper SI names - something not so easy in a paper encyclopedia.

The proper SI names? Système International? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

4 The reasoning for the use of self-identifying names is partially made in the last three points. However it is also in the existing guidance - "names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity." and "Misplaced Pages is descriptive, not prescriptive. We cannot declare what a name should be, only what it is." Xandar 00:05, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Which are unsubstantiated and unsourced statements of a Point of View. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

What are you saying here PM? Can't a self-identifying name be substantiated with reliable sources? Nevertheless, what someone calls themselves isnt a point of view. A justification or rationale would be, but simply describing is perfectly neutral. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 02:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course the fact that group X calls themselves "the Y of X" is neutral and encyclopedic - although it is often more complex than it appears; which members of group X? But names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity is an arbitrary metaphysical statement, and part of the profound disagreement here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:52, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

It is justification and rationale for the policy. In other words if I founded a Society for helping the Unemployed", and the popular press labelled it the "Society of Scroungers", then the latter might be the more popular name, but since the title reflects the group's own identity and self-image, the group's SELF-IDENTIFYING NAME should be used. Xandar 12:26, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Example section

I'm moving a section here for further discussion; it seems to have been added recently:

Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term.

Misplaced Pages should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Misplaced Pages can, or should, decide.

In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.

In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.

This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article where the Maputan-Cabindan controversy is relevant, then the use of the term should be explained and clarified, with both sides' case being summarised.

I'm not sure this is quite right as written, and the writing is additionally unclear (e.g. "would not conform with a NPOV"). Is there any clear benefit to having it on the page? SlimVirgin 04:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

See Macedonian naming dispute, of which real-world situation this is a translation. Insofar as that dispute is reflected in Misplaced Pages, it has been settled by WP:MOSMAC2, and the polls that led up to it, without the use of the concept "self-identifying name". Therefore, no, no benefit; this is a failed effort to solve the Macedonia disaster, now resolved without it. . Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

This is an incredibly important part of the policy, and not at all moot as these international problems continue unabated all over Misplaced Pages even if Macedonia solved their problem. This is the NPOV/Undue Weight policy applied as a naming convention. It says an important thing: one group, particularly a minority, cannot deny use of a common name by another group. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

What other conflict satisfies these conditions: the people of the country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term? The parties on either side of the Taiwan Strait don't; for one thing, they aren't two different ethnic groups. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:46, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

The request to move People's Republic of China to China (as most outsiders would expect) is a monthly occurrence and always blocked by Republic of China backers who deny the common usage of China as a reference to the PRC. On a more minor case, there are the two Congos, a few Native American tribal name conflicts and probably others I'm unaware of, and maybe more in the future. It is a good thing to say one group cannot deny the use of a term by another group. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I HAVE RESTORED THIS SECTION TO THE GUIDELINE SINCE THERE IS NO CONSENSUS TO REMOVE IT. I HAVE ALSO REVERTED OTHER DISHONEST ATTEMPTS BY KOTNISKI AND OTHERS TO REVERSE THE GUIDANCE WITHOUT AGREEMENT OR CONSENSUS.

The statement that the example has been newly-added, is - like a lot of the activities of people seeking to change this guidance without consensus - dishonest. The example has been stable in the guidance for years. I also deprecate the continual "forum-shopping" and moving this discussion, without notification to participants, from forum to forum. This counts as disruptive editing in my book. Two of the participants here are trying to disrupt the Catholic Church article, because they want the article at Roman Catholic Church, and I think that aim is behind a lot of the attempt to change the guidance here. Xandar 00:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

On the substantive argument, I agree with Schmucky the Cat. This is highly important in denying the argument that one group can stop another using a particular self-identifying name of their choice. The Catholic Church issue is another example where this argument has been used. And the attempt to illegally vandalise the guidance here seems part of that campaign. Xandar 00:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

And FULLCAPS are ever so much more rational and persuasive. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

You need to stop editing the main page until there is a consensus to change it; that's why he reverted it. What you are doing is disruptive. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 07:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

What's disruptive is continued attempts by one editor to restore some text to the guideline that clearly has no place in it, on the sole grounds that it was "there for a long time". It's really out of order for Xandar to accuse others of trying to amend this guidance to support their opinions about the Catholic Church article, when that seems to be his own main motivation for restoring his preferred version. For the record, I have not the slightest interest in what we call that article - if asked, I would probably agree that the word "Roman" is unnecessary. But that has nothing to do with including here some long one-sided exposition of the Macedonia dispute with the names changed. No-one's denying any group the right to call themselves anything - but no person or group has the automatic right to make Misplaced Pages call them something if the English-speaking world in general doesn't call them that (nor can any other group stop us from calling them something that the world calls them).--Kotniski (talk) 08:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a way to change guidelines, and that is by community-wide consensus. You have tried on two different forums to gain that - and have not gained it. So you nand some allies, who are engaged in a naming dispute, have decided repeatedly to alter this guidance unilaterally and improperly without consensus. Your OPINION that the guidance is wrong gives you no right to alter long-standing guidance without full consensus. The continued attempts to by-pass the process, including changing the text with misleading edit summaries, show that you know that you do not have that consensus for change, and are trying to alter the policy by underhand means. Xandar 10:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Following correct editing procedure, it should be Bold Edit -> Revert by disagreeing editor -> Discussion resulting in consensus. What I see here is Bold Edit -> Revert -> Re-revert while discussing -> Re-vert While discussing -> ETC. That's called edit Warring. That's disruptive. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:48, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I have just reverted another IMPROPER substantive alteration to the guidance made, as usual, without consensus, by PManderson - who is involved in a naming dispute elsewhere. This continued attempt to change established guidance by improper means has got to stop. Xandar 10:52, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Be careful not to go over 3 reverts --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully other editors will step in to stop the page being improperly vandalised by those who want to change the guidance for POV reasons. Xandar 10:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Brilliant, no-one else is allowed to change it, but you can choose whichever version suits you. This rather indicates that the page should no longer be marked as a guideline, but moved to your user space as an essay.--Kotniski (talk) 11:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

That's the policy. After the first revert, you discuss. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's what we've been doing for ages; and improvements are made as a result of that discussion. It's disruptive to undo them just because you think they spoil your position in some dispute elsewhere (they don't, in this case, but Xandar seems to think they do).--Kotniski (talk) 11:13, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Right now those edits don't reflect consensus. So until there's a new consensus, we stick with the previous consensus. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Correct - and that consensus is reflected on WP:Naming conventions, a policy page which is widely watched and attracts wide participation, not on this page, which no-one was interested in until the Catholic Church people decided it would help their case (I don't see how it remotely does, but never mind.) --Kotniski (talk) 11:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

. Previous consensus doesn't lie on another page. Previous consensus was what was here before this started. Is there a conflict between the two? I don't think so. But what important here is that we discuss this here on the talk page before we start editing the page again. This back-and-forth is not acceptable. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

This guidance stood for years before the Catholic Church argument developed. Those trying to change the guidance now are not us, but seem to include people dissatisfied with that and other results. What we stick to is the consensus version of THIS GUIDELINE - not certain individuals personal interpretation of how other policies should apply to this. How this guidance reads is something to be decided by broad consensus discussion - as stated clearly in the tag at the top of the page of this guidance. So do not make substantive changes to the longstanding consensus guidance until consensus for any such changes is achieved on this page. Xandar 11:27, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

And you will block all possible consensus with your nonsensical arguments. Guidance stood for years because it was ignored, not because people agreed with it, hence its contradiction of other policies. --Kotniski (talk) 11:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Your idea of consensus seems to be your own views dominating. The "contradiction" is in your own mind. Your claim that the guidance whas ignored has no basis. By the examples I have given above, the guidance has been working well. Sunray has tried to get you and others to come to a productive and real discussion, but that has been spurned. Xandar 12:08, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The examples don't show any guidance has been "working well" - the same conclusions would have been reached without this guidance, as PMA has shown (I don't know if the guidance was cited in any discussions about those names). And we've been engaging in productive discussion, but you make the process pointless by continually restoring an old version that neutral editors clearly don't agree with. And the contradiction seems to be in your mind - you are the one interpreting this guidance as meaning that we must use self-identifying names as article titles (which is not what it says), which manifestly contradicts the main NC policy. --Kotniski (talk) 12:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The Ethiopian Church appears to have been moved a couple times, but not over this issue. Self-identification was a minor, but not decisive, issue at Kolkata, as I recall, but it overlaps there with using Indian English. Bangalore was not moved, although its Council changed its self-identification, because Indian English had not yet adopted the name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Kotniski: The "old version" is the only legitimate version we have unless and until a new consensus should enmerge. You should know better than to alter major guidance like this without consensus. Following repeated vandalism and attempts to pervert Misplaced Pages policies on guidance changes, I have asked that this page be protected.

PManderson. The above applies to you too. You have already been reported to the Administrators for disruptive editing by multiple editors. Yet you continue to do the same thing. You seem able to find multiple "legitimate" reasons for setting aside the so-called "immutable" principle of "Common-name only" when it suits you. This shows that the whole rationale for attempting to change this guideline is false. Xandar 19:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

That's because I don't believe in common name only. I believe that that principle dominates; but there are occasions when it is more convenient to make exceptions - but adopting the point of view of the subject of the article is not one. I am even prepared to add something about self-identification as a way to choose between frequent names; but I observe no agreement on how much this should weigh. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:01, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Consensus

Right now those edits don't reflect consensus. So until there's a new consensus, we stick with the previous consensus.

Not at all. That is equivalent to a claim of ownership, by whatever handful is the previous consensus, who will then quote a disputed guideline as consensus, to which all must yield. Better to be silent. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:09, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

You seem not to understand the concept of consensus - which is more important on articles like this one than elsewhere - since their influence spreads to the way numerous other articles are written. A previous concensus stands until a new consensus is achieved. If the majority of people in the community want a change then a new consensus will be arrived at. However if only a minority or a bare equality want a change and cannot win over other editors to their point of view, there is no change. Why is this? So that there is not flip-flopping on policies, and so that agreement is encouraged, and so that once broad agreement has been achieved on policy, there is stability. Xandar 23:21, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Consensus is agreement; no agreement exists here; as many editors object to the old text as support it. We were well on the way to working out what we did agree on above until you arrived with your revert war. Where consensus does not exist, it should not claimed. "Thus, "according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales for making or reverting an edit, or for accepting or rejecting other forms of proposal or action." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

As the notice at the top of this page states clearly "Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus. When in doubt, discuss first on the talk page." Yes. We did start trying to work to see if a new consensus was possible. However there was deep disagreement on the key issue of self-identifying names, and certain editors decided to short-circuit the community consensus-building process by unilaterally making major substantive changes to the text, eliminating whole sections, and edit-warring to prevent reversion. While you are allowed a test edit. After one reversion the stable form has to remain until a new consensus is achieved. You may be impatient that your views are not accepted by everyone, but that's the way things are. Xandar 00:15, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

And your' edits reflect no consensus whatever. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Previous consensus. Please remember BOLD, REVERT, DISCUSS; Not BOLD, REVERT, EDIT WAR. Can we leave the previous consensus on the page, and get down to actually discussing a proposed change? Or do you intend to keep changing the page until people give up? Cause, that's grounds for a block. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib)

If the dispute tags are restored, we can go back to #Proposal C above. Xandar doesn't agree to it, but then will he agree to anything except the present perfect text, which several of us dispute? Does anyone else dispute Proposal C? If so it can be trimmed; its intent being to say only what has general agreement. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes. A great number of people have indicated that they oppose ANY CHANGE to the current guideline. Proposal C is totally unacceptable, since it is a major change to the current guideline since it eviscerates and reverses the guideline, and uses spurious and false examples to do so. Xandar 12:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

China and the Congo

There may be a point on these two cases; but I don't see how Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. helps or matters.

What two ethnic groups and their self-identifications affect the RoC and the PRC?
What two ethnic groups and their self-identifications affect the two states of the Congos?

And more to the point, what advice does Schmucky want to give on the issue of moving the People's Republic of China to China? The obvious reason not to do it, while at the same time keeping Germany there, and not at its self-identification, the Federal Republic of Germany, is that China is ambiguous. If there were only one Chinese government, we would call it China, whatever its self-indentification was. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:17, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

In fact, self-identification is dangerous here; suppose the next ideological shift at Beijing leads the PRC to declare that their name is China? What then? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Beijing unequivocally does claim the name "China" as a shorthand name and demands others use it. Claiming "China" is ambiguous is entirely false. Show reliable mainstream and modern sources that refer to the RoC as "China". It doesn't happen. It is a small minority (a small proportion of the electorate in Taiwan, and even fewer outside of it) claim that the RoC should continue to claim the use of the term China. That is a clear NPOV/Undue weight problem, because it is this minority view that denies the PRC the use of the term "China" which all reliable sources for at least 30 years have used as a short, common, name. Misplaced Pages is descriptive, not prescriptive. The world, in the English language, descriptively uses "China" to refer to the PRC exclusively. It is prescriptivist to have a minority, the KMT in the RoC, deny the use of that term.

Notice the description of "subjective criteria" in other parts of this guideline is clear as well, if a name is commonly used, we do not prescriptively change that because of political beliefs or the existence of minority claimants. This isn't just political or national, it is a basic concept of when to disambiguate primary title uses.

I'm not presenting this, so much, in terms of self-identification, but in the denial by one group of the common name (as presented by reliable sources as well as self-ID) of another group. The rest of this guideline, the main Naming Conventions, and DAB guidelines still support that, but I think the example was useful. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Very well, then, reverse the case; I apologize if I forgot whose advocate you are. Suppose the Taipei Government changes its name to just China; what then? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:32, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I would suppose the article name would be China (Taipei). Xandar 19:34, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality

Using the self-selected name, as this guidance clearly states, is NOT choosing sides.

In the case where the self-selected name differs from English usage, it clearly is choosing sides: it's choosing the side of the people who selected the name. If I were to call myself King of England, that's my self-selected name - and my POV. Queen Elizabeth, and millions of others, would disagree. We decide between these points of view by letting the mass of English-users decide, and seeing what they use; in this example, that's not hard. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

So, on the issue of there being two names, neither of which are arguably well-known to English speakers, we ignore consideration of endonym over exonym? That is the intent, I believe, of using the "self-selected name" for an ethnic group. -- llywrch (talk) 17:31, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I think we can certainly give preference to self-selected names and endonyms as one consideration where there is no clearly commonest English name. But not to take precedence over the common-name principle if there is a clear common name.--Kotniski (talk) 18:09, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Once again a false argument is being made by producing a fantasy example, invented to try to make a point. However the real cases like Mormon Church, Coptic Church and British Navy are ignored. These are some of the cases actually affected by the proposed policy change. In the case of PManderson calling himself King of England, in the real world we would have to examine A) Is he a notable enough person to appear in Misplaced Pages? If he was, perhaps his contention would have to be taken more seriously. B) Does he really identify primarily as the King of England, and is he notable in this respect? Is his name registered as King of England? Is that how he signs his cheques and pays his taxes? If so, then his self-identification becomes more serious. Perhaps like Prince or Duke Ellington, he deserves entry in WP under his self-identified name. As the guidance currently says, using someone's chosen name is NOT choosing sides since their name is a key part of their identity. Using a name that person or body resents or finds offensive to please somebody third party IS taking sides, because it raises the third party's views over the identity of the person in question. Xandar 18:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Sigh. Mormon Church is not the normal usage of English - and is ambiguous; or we probably would use it.

I deny that the hypothetical of a pretender (however hopeless) to the British throne is fantastical; but there are actual pretenders to the Throne of Saint Peter. David Bawden self-identifies as Pope Michael I; should we call him that? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Bawden is a very poor example. The article shouldn't even be there, were Wp policies enforced stringently, and it has been proposed twice for deletion because of non-notability and lack of references. His only appearance seems to be on the internet, and there is little evidence as to whether he uses the name "Pope Michael" all the time. This is unlikely since, even on his website the name David Bawden appears. If he were more notable, and genuinely used the title Pope Michael I as his sole, real life, identification, the name should be used. However in this case I don't believe that either qualification applies. Xandar 20:05, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar, I am getting the distinct impression that this is the work of a troll. No references have been offered to support his/her position. No examples have been provided that demonstrate that there is any ambiguity about the name Catholic Church. In fact, the whole argument is the work of fiction, feint, misunderstanding of names, confusion between doctrine and naming conventions, etc. It is without merit in its entirety.

When editors speak from the position of ignorance, facts become meaningless to them. Their only objective is what is found in their own head. If anyone wit a modicum of knowledge, the LDS Church had to specifically ask the media to STOP referring to their organization as the Mormon church and have requested that they be identified as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and/or the LDS Church for within the article after the church has been named. Doesn't anyone read anymore? --Rider 23:42, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I think quite a few people are in denial about these facts. Xandar 00:22, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

When a preferred name is used, it's used only in cases where it does not oppose the common name that people think the thing should be called. Common names is the standard, preferred names often meet the standard, but to use that fact to override common names is absolutely backwards. M 23:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

And who decides what does and doesn't "oppose" the Common name? Does "Romany" oppose "Gypsy" or other forms of the latter word? Some people "think" groups should be called many things. Some highly offensive. Opposing such names is a must. Xandar 00:22, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

That is to say:"When a self-preferred name is used, it's used only in cases where it does not differ from the common name that people think the thing should be called."

But this is a red herring. We determine common usage by consulting reliable sources; how many of them use highly offensive terms for Gypsy? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:28, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The degree of offense is immaterial. The fact that people have a name for themselves and are offended by another name being used to describe them, is what Misplaced Pages has to respect. Xandar 12:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

That is directly contrary to policy; Misplaced Pages is not censored, and it is not written to be kindly to anyone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:59, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Using an individual's chosen name hardly accounts a s censorship. Xandar 11:42, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Not using what some individual is actually called does amount to censorship. Are we to call Kim Jong Il "Dear Leader" every time we mention him? It's what he has declared to be protocol, and doubtless he would be pleased to have WP adopt his point of view. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:43, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

The loci of dispute

{{editprotected}} Those of us who dispute this guideline dispute the sections Example and Types of entities; could we have {{disputedtag}} tags, please? They should have the argument section=yes or they will say "article". The second can go before the words "A city, country, people or person by contrast", since that is the paragraph at issue. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:06, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. This seems like another attempt to alter or weaken the effectiveness of the guidance before any consensus has been arrived at to change it. The protection tag itself already provides adequate information that a dispute is going on. Xandar 12:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, the guideline is already weakened by protection - as it deserves to be; this is a service to anybody who comes to straighten out the dispute. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:55, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Not done; please get consensus before making edit requests. Skomorokh 20:52, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Mediation

You know, that does it. Xandar's latest comments, to the effect that a GREAT number of people oppose ANY change to these guidelines (and other reiterated fantasies) convince me that this dispute is beyond ordinary discussion. Two people oppose every change: himself and Storm Rider; Schmucky opposes one change, but has said nothing about anything else.

So which form of mediation do people prefer? the Mediation Committee, or Mediation cabal? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

You've already given up discussion? I don't see how mediation is going to help when we haven't even gotten down to a serious discussion of the issues. Why don't we slow this down and lay off the accusations. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 16:31, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

We've been trying to discuss, but there seems to be a small but committed group (apparently all from the same side in one particular naming dispute) who have no interest in anything except preserving the guideline exactly as it is, in spite of the multiple faults that keep being pointed out. In this situation we clearly need some sort of resolution procedure - maybe a community-wide RfC on basic principles of naming?--Kotniski (talk) 16:48, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that goes for both sides, not just the side in favor of staus quo. Anyway, i think you're confusing the argument over the changing the page before discussions had concluded, and the the discussion of the issues at hand. I dont think that there is an unwillingness to discuss, I think the opposition was to the edit warring and preemptive insertion of text into the guideline. Now that we have a protection period, I hink things can calm down a bit. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 17:24, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, it is clear to me that there are two valid ways of thinking about this: use the common name or make an exception when common name conflicts with the self-identifying name. I think both should be fully considered and the merits of each weighed without being overly dramatic. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 17:33, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, just as there are two ways of writing about a subject: treat it from a neutral point of view or from its own point of view. Now, often, in both pairs, these don't differ very much - and several of us agreed to say so: a self-identifying name is often English usage, and should always be considered when looking for common usage. Is there general agreement on this? Does it need examples? Is there anything else that we generally agree on? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I certainly think we need a wider constituency for the major changes to naming policy proposed here - one that is significantly greater than four or five people on this page. Pmanderson and Kontiski seem to have as their goal the entire elimination of the principle that self-identifying names of living people and current organisations should normally be the chosen forms in Misplaced Pages. This is a major policy change, and unless there is a decision on this, work on detailed sections of the guidance is likely to come to a halt. I can see the scope for minor changes in emphasis in the current guidance, but I don't think that is what PManderson and Kontiski want. And the matter of significant principle remains the elephant in the room. Xandar 21:49, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

That's because there is no such normal principle, except in Xandar's imagination. It's contrary to existing policy. What extent self-identification should, for example, influence the choice between equally common names iz another question, on which there may or may not be general agreement.

Sometimes the article title itself may be a source of contention and polarization. This is especially true for descriptive titles that suggest a viewpoint either "for" or "against" any given issue. A neutral article title is very important because it ensures that the article topic is placed in the proper context. Therefore, encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality. The article might cover the same material but with less emotive words, or might cover broader material which helps ensure a neutral view (for example, renaming "Criticisms of drugs" to "Societal views on drugs"). Neutral titles encourage multiple viewpoints and responsible article writing.

Where proper nouns such as names are concerned, disputes may arise over whether a particular name should be used. Misplaced Pages takes a descriptive rather than prescriptive approach in such cases, by using the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources.

That's what's policy. There is a wiki, called Wikinfo, which uses the Sympathetic Point of View; but we're not it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:17, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Pmanderson said: a self-identifying name is often English usage, and should always be considered when looking for common usage. Is there general agreement on this? Does it need examples?

No, there is obviously not general agreement. We already have the naming convention on common usage. The guideline classes self-identifying names as another consideration in naming. As several people have pointed out, that is helpful guidance in naming conflicts. So there is no consensus to change the guideline. How about we either: a) broaden the discussion to include other editors as Xandar has suggested, or b) move on to some more important matter than needs our attention? Sunray (talk) 01:28, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

It's the same language Sunray agreed to above; that's why I took it to be generally acceptable, save for Xandar and the friend he contacted. What's wrong with it now?

A city, country, people or person by contrast, is a self-identifying entity: it has a preferred name for itself. The city formerly called Danzig now calls itself Gdańsk; the man formerly known as Cassius Clay now calls himself Muhammad Ali. These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names

The present language is an unacceptable excuse for POV writing (although not as bad as Xandar's deliberate misinterpretation makes it; it does not say anything about the Byzantine Empire not being REAL, or mandate the use of self-identifying names). this is presumably why it's being defended by Xandar's tirades, revert-wars, and falsehoods; leaving it would encourage this sort of thing, of which we get too much already. Those of us who dealt with the Macedonian disaster are intimately familiar with these tactics. Therefore, what means of wider edits did you have in mind? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

No, what is unacceptable is your refusal to recognize consensus, accept other perspectives or engage in debate without lashing out with personal attacks. There is no "general agreement" for your proposal. The policy prevents POV, endless edit warring, etc... it does not promote them. --anietor (talk) 03:04, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

It discourages the use of independent reliable sources, which our naming conventions; in so doing it lends comfort to all our POV-pushers - at least those with an institution to back (which almost all of them have); this means that when the next pseudoscientific fraud - unless you deny that such things exist - calls itself the Scientific Institution for Healing Everything, we must accept that claim; when Fooland declares itself be the Union of Fooland and Barland, we must not only state that they have done so, but use the name - even if Barland and the rest of the world object. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

But thank you for demonstrating that this is not a simple conduct problem. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Your "examples" are silly. If my neighbor Joe decided to call himself the Union of Fooland, we wouldn't have to call it ANYTHING because it wouldn't be noteworthy, and therefore wouldn't even have an article. If, however, he started some global movement with significant participants, or a popular band, or attracted attention in the media, etc., then we probably WOULD have an article called Union of Fooland, explaining the phenomenon. Doesn't sound any more farfetched than an article titled They Might be Giants. --anietor (talk) 03:50, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

That's not what I said. I postulated one government declaring itself the owner of another country - and this being ignored by the rest of the world and most speakers of English. This is the sort of situation in which self-identifying names differ from usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:00, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

I will wait at least 24 hours before asking for mediation, and see whether there is anybody willing to discuss change; or any objections to changing the present policy-violation which aren't from the editors of a single article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:43, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Its a bit disingenious of you, PManderson, to accuse people who disagree with your proposals of "coming from the same article", when you are at present a leading proponent of trying to change the name of that same article. This guidance was written long before that name change dispute was started. And anyway, many of the people opposed to your change here and on the WP:NCON talk page are nothing to do with that article. As I have said no serious real-life examples of the supposed malfunctioning of this guidance have been produced ergo. there is no big problem that needs fixing. Real examples of where this guidance has been helpful HAVE been produced. Regarding the idea that dead people and defunct organisations cannot be self-identifying entities. That is not specified in the guidance, but seems quite clear from the wording and rationale. I would not object to a statement being added to the guidance on self-identifying names stating that it only applies to currently-living persons or groups, and currently-extant organisations, cities, districts and nations. Xandar 11:40, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Which are these "real examples of where this guidance has been helpful"? And no, it isn't a big problem that needs fixing, since few people ever read this guidance or try to apply it, but there's no reason to leave a problem unaddressed just because it isn't big.--Kotniski (talk) 12:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, who are these "many people" opposing change who are nothing to do with the Catholic Church article? Whenever I click on the contributions of any of them, I always see "Talk:Catholic Church" featuring (SchmuckytheCat being the only exception, where the interest seems to be in China instead). --Kotniski (talk) 13:01, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

This comment of Kotniski's remains unanswered, despite every effort to disguise this. I am tired of this repeated bad faith. Who are these "many people" opposing change who are nothing to do with the Catholic Church article?

you are at present a leading proponent of trying to change the name of that same article This is a lie. I made some posts there, since I observed that the naming was still in dispute; I think the process by which it was moved as contrary to procedure as Xandar's reading of this page is contrary to policy (doubtless he will agree ;->); and I said so. When another editor made the pointy move of proposing an RM with which he disagreed, I gave reasons for supporting the move; but it was not my idea, although I have no objection to demonstrating that that is also no consensus - and I've said that too. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

PManderson, It's a bit silly to say something is a lie when it is there on the page for anyone to read. The first post setting up the unofficial new "poll" someone started, stating "Strong and Immediate support" for renaming the article RCC is yours. that makes you a leading proponent of the latest agitation. it also has to be asked what your motivation was for making the unagreed and sudden major changes to this guideline that necesssitated page protection?

As far as people opposing change not having a view on the Catholic Church issue, I could name Chris O... heimstern laufer and martin hogbin. In addition M did not support wholesale change to the substance of the article, and Sunray is also not a proponent of your views. Xandar 20:17, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say that "many people" involved here have also participated in the Catholic Church naming issue. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with that, of course. However, the movement here seems to be mainly driven by editors who lost their cause over there and are trying to back-door their positions by coming here. It could certainly seem like forum shopping. However, it's best to focus on the arguments being made here, both pro and con, and not try to attribute motivations behind the editors. If the argument holds water, it holds water, regardless of what brought that editor here in the first place. And that applies to both sides. --anietor (talk) 17:57, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

That, of course, is not an answer to Kotniski's question; whether it is an admission may be left to uninvolved eyes. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Sept, I am still surprised that you cant simply address the issue. Most of your comments have some sort of jab at your "opponents". Using such undiplomatic language is quite possibly the worst way to get people to agree with you. Please refrain from making comments about the other editors, and stay on topic.

With regard to mediation, that process is voluntary and would require 1) all the participants here to agree to it and 2) the mediation comittee to accept. You cant hold it over us like some sort of threat. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 19:59, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

No, it's not a threat; it's an environment where civilized discussion, without yelling and refactoring, can take place. If my comments are moved again, I will ask that suitable action be taken. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:42, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted what you said. I don't think having a mediator prevents these things from happening. I just think we all need to agree to calm down and stick to the topic.

What I was thinking is that we can draft proposed text both with and without a self-identifying name exception, then put it up for RfC. That way the decision is made by the community at large and one individual wont be able to hold up the process. Is that acceptable? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib)

On the whole it would be better to have the RfC

ask the fundamental question: Shouldn't this guideline include only those claims (about self-identifying names, or anything else) which are generally agreed on? (We can skip this, if it seems obvious, but there seems to be some sentiment in the other direction.)
And then ask what they are, by proposing a number of candidate statements. This can even include the opinion that only living people have self-identifying names, if Xandar can phrase this explicitly. (We can cut down on this list by some system of seconding.)

The system of drafting competing statements encourages extremists to insist on an extreme draft being one of the few offered, in the hope it will somehow pass. It also cuts down on discussion and proposal of new ideas, except for the drafting committee. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:19, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Thats acceptable. Then I suggest we divert our attention momentarily from wording and make sure our question is as neutral as possible. Yours is a good start, but I suspect others will want to weigh in.. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:34, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Question

The fundamental question is, to me: Shouldn't this guideline include only those claims (about self-identifying names, or anything else) which are generally agreed on?

Is this actually disputed?
If so, we need to ask it. How should this be phrased? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:44, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I also think this guideline was also intended to refer to the use of names within articles, but I dont think this is phrased very clearly. I think, as far as how to procede with naming conflicts involving self-identifying entities; both in the past and within this discussion, we have two different ideas of which name should be preferred (self identifying or most common). The oldest versions support common name, the ones from the last few years support deferral to the self-title. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:15, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

And we should make clear to the RfC that this only concerns the narrow class where the two names differ.

Can you find the point where the emphasis changed? It would be interesting to know what change was made, by whom, and what reasons were put forth on talk. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 12:06, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I certainly don't support the question suggested by PManderson. The question is too vague since who knows what claims are generally agreed on? It introduces a huge area of fuzziness and general ambiguity that is unecessary. We have the current stable guideline. PManderson and Kontniski need to outline the changes they would like to make, and we would then attempt to discover if there is any sort of consensus to make those changes. Xandar 20:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

We find out what claims are generally agreed on in the second part of the RfC, by presenting a number of claims, including the present sentence These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity, and see who agrees to them. If almost everybody does, they are generally agreed.
That's what WP:consensus means, but it is clearly time for a different formulation to remind us of what a simple idea we actually operate under. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

But I am prepared to listen to Xandar's ideas for an RfC.
If there is to be none, however, my proposal for what to say is simple. Strike the offending paragraph, and the entire Cobinda metaphor, and work up, sentence by sentence, with whatever it is we can agree on as a replacement. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:59, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Consensus says this: "Misplaced Pages expects changes to policies and guidelines to achieve more participation and consensus than other pages. In cases where consensus is difficult, independent or more experienced editors may need to join the discussion." In other words it is changes to policies and guidelines that need to achieve consensus - not the existing policy or guideline itself. PManderson seems to be proposing the opposite. We can't rub out the existing guidance, and then say we'll fill the gap later. What is needed is the proposed change to be set out by its proposers, and then put to the community to test whether that is what is required. Xandar 22:39, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Fine; that answers the question of whether the question at hand is disputed. The RfC should resolve what the answer to it is. Now, does Xandar have anything useful to say about the wording, or should the rest of us just pick one? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

RCC article

My opinion was asked, as a contributor to several naming conventions, by another contributor. I think those who opposed the last move of the article concerned are right on the facts, but it's not why I'm here, or why I dispute the paragraph at issue - although that name is an excellent example of depicting an institution from its own point of view, contrary to clear policy. I don't think it's why the others are here either; Kotniski has as much experience with the naming conventions as I do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:09, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

These persistent attempts to misrepresent the scope of my comment - and that Kotniski has not be replied to, are uncivil; don't factor other people's comments without their consent, much less against it. If this continues, I will go immediately to mediation, where this sort of meddling is impossible.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:32, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

You are clearly a leading player in the latest name-war agitation at the Catholic Church page. That is clear from the page itself. I got involved here because I had read the stable guidance over a year ago and quoted it. I returned here recently to find that it had been changed by Kotniski with no community input. The change was quite radical, but not so radical as currently proposed. It is quite legitimate for people working on articles likely to be affected by proposed changes in guidance to have input into discussion of such proposed changes. Xandar 20:33, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

- Falsehood certainly. I did not set up the RM; that was done by Richardhusr, who opposes it (which is why he acknowledges it is WP:POINTy); I do support it. If this is a simple misunderstanding, I will strike the lie. But if this is bad faith, discussion with Xandar is impossible under these conditions. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Good grief, please stop with the dramatics and martyr complex. You consistently drag these discussions into tangents instead of addressing the core issue, then accuse everyone else of attacking you and failing to answer random off-topic questions you insist on posing. This isn't about you, Pmandeson. Neither Xander, nor others, are attacking you or misrepresenting your statements. And please, for the last time, stop using mediation as some sort of threat you are going to resort to because you don't like other editors' comments. You've been warned about that before and it's getting tiring. On a practical note, it also makes it hard for anyone to follow these discussions when they have to wade through all these off-topic issues. --anietor (talk) 20:51, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I did not bring up this lie about my being "a leading player in the latest name-war agitation". Xandar did; and has twice repeated it. Whose drama is it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:06, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

The drama is all yours, Pm. Xander called you "a leading proponent", and cited to where you posted the very first "support" entry, which you entitled "Strong and Immediate Support." That's a fact. You choose to read judgment into that and lash out with silly accusations of Falsehood and Lies and threats of starting a mediation. Rather uncivil of you. Let's stick to the issues, please. --anietor (talk) 21:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

He misstated the facts - as do you; after correction, repetition becomes a lie. He has continued to do so, as have you; I have responded to some of these, but not all, and would not have brought up the subject except in replies. If you wish to demonstrate good faith, you will drop the subject, and turn to what the RfC or some other method of determining the opinion of the wider community could be. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:55, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Positions

The section at issue is Types of entities, the most relevant paragraph is:

There is a question of what people's positions are, and some misrepresentation of positions. The following should help us resolve some of these issues. Please place your name below, or use the {{user}} tag and a diff to include someone else. Do not add discussion. If you would like to add a new position, ask below first.

Straw poll

Do not add discussion, it will be moved or deleted.

The section is poorly written

pseudo-philosophical and verbose M 23:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity is a genuine, if clumsily phrased, philosophical statement; but not consensus. Many of us are Nominalists. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:30, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I Agree with the content of the section, but it really needs to be re-written. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 04:29, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Yes; too much dubious philosophical theorizing; little useful guidance (and the guidance that is given is wrong).--Kotniski (talk) 07:40, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The section is not poorly written

I see no major problems. It seems quite clear to me. Xandar 00:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Xandar. NancyHeise 01:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Also agree. The section has proved useful, and is clear as currently written. --anietor (talk) 17:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree that this has been a useful section and I prefer that it remain as it has been.--EastmeetsWest (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree with the statement. --Rider 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Preferred (self-identifying) names do not overrule the most common name

M 23:43, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Kotniski (talk · contribs)
Nor does the section, as written, actually say that they do; it says they should be considered. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:30, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
The name most common in reliable sources should be used, except when someone has legally changed their name, so long as that's been published in an RS too. But for groups, we should use the most common name; otherwise we'd be forced, in effect, to view them the way they view themselves, which is POV. SlimVirgin 05:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree with SV, but would also add that national varieties of English and WP:NC#Use English words may also need to be considered. As Misplaced Pages is reactive and not proactive if a boxer called "Cassius Clay" today decided to call himself "Muhammad Ali" it would not be up to Misplaced Pages to alter the name its article from "Cassius Clay" to "Muhammad Ali" until the majority of reliable sources started to do so. --PBS (talk) 00:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Preferred names overrule the most common name

When common name conflicts with the preferred name of a living, self-identifying entity the common name should redirect or disambiguate to the self-preferred name. This is one of the many exceptions to to Misplaced Pages's naming conventions and common name principle. Does not apply to inanimate objects or defunct organizations/persons. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 04:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC) Addendum: this self-preferred name would have to be confirmed by reliable sources, both primary and independent. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 06:45, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
If there's going to be a controversy over whether non-living/extant self-identifiers are covered or not, I'd prefer that to be dealt with separately. On the main issue I believe the long-standing guidance is quite correct and has actually been the continuing practice in Misplaced Pages articles such as the examples I gave above - and many others. The paragraph explains the rationale and reason why self-identifying names should normally be given preference. It is because identifying an entity by a name that entity does not prefer such as calling Inuits by the name Eskimo, even if the latter is the most common name in English, can be seen as insulting, contentious, and an attack on that entity's most basic asset - its identity. Xandar 14:15, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
The way this is written is not truly reflective of my opinion, but it leans more in this direction than the other. I think that under most circumstances, we should use self-identified names. The exception would be in the case that the self-identified name is substantially less common than another, not only in everyday speech, but in scholarly sources as well. In cases where both a self-identifying name and another name are commonly used, even if one has a slight edge in usage, I think we should always default to the self-identified name. Why? In close cases, it's typically hard to tell which name is really the most common (remember, Google searches are unreliable, and even browsing scholarly works is rarely exhaustive, and is subject to the pitfalls of the human bias that even the best scholars are subject to). By contrast, self-identifying names are objective from our perspective (not that the name itself is objective, but that our reporting of it is), and are a good way to resolve difficult calls. (This is essentially why I continue to support returning the article about Thailand's western neighbour to Myanmar. Sources in English use both Burma and Myanmar, but only one is self-identifying.) Heimstern Läufer (talk) 04:24, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Why would we not respect the actions of the entity? I see no need to ever perpetuate ignorance. --Rider 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Entities which are not living/extant have self-identifying names.

If not, we will have to change this anyway when Muhammad Ali dies, in the foreseeable future. Will we move his article? Is Woodrow Wilson a self-identifying name (he was christened Thomas Woodrow)? Marilyn Monroe? Abraham Lincoln? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
We know the self-identification of self-identifying entities today, because we find it written in sources, we also have sources today showing the self-identification of self-identifying entities from the past, so self-identifying entities (both present and those from the past) self-identify through sources. (So, the names of self-identifying entities from the past should also be considered.) Cody7777777 (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Obviously they do; the question is whether those names should be given weight. Probably the answer is the same as for extant entities: to the extent that those names bear on common usage. (Current self-names probably affect common usage more, so if we stick with the common-name principle, then current ones will also have more of a bearing on the names we choose.)--Kotniski (talk) 07:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
All entities have a name the preferred to be called and in the vast majority of time, almosts always, it is the common name. --Rider 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Self-identifying names are very often, but not always, those in common usage.

Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Xandar 00:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Cody7777777 (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Right, and this discussion is focused on those times at which they are not. M 00:16, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
This is a clearly true statement. --EastmeetsWest (talk) 11:46, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
Agree. --Rider 19:40, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Of the above, the following participants have been noted as being canvassed. It is up to reviewers of this poll to decide what, if any, impact this has had on the poll.

Anietor (talk · contribs · count) twice canvassed by Xandar. Catholic Church is third most frequently edited article.
NancyHeise (talk · contribs · count) Canvassed by Xandar; 64% of all article space edits are on Catholic Church
EastmeetsWest (talk · contribs · count) Twice canvassed by Xandar; Catholic Church is first (a tie) among the articles edited by this user.
Storm Rider (talk · contribs · count) ; Catholic Church is among the ten most frequently edited talk pages.
Heimstern (talk · contribs · count)

Yet more discussion

Unfortunately, this is a misstatement of fact as far as my editing is concerned. I am Storm Rider; the Catholic Church is not among my top ten edited articles. The factual statement is that among TALK pages, Catholic Church is 7th most edited article. Of additional interest might also be: that I have been an editor since October of 2004; I have in excess of 16,800 edits; I have never been blocked; my top ten edited articles are Joseph Smith, Jr., The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Book of Mormon, Mormonism, Christianity, Mormonism and Christianity, Mormon, Criticism of the Latter Day movement, Jesus, and West Ridge Academy. I have linked my edit counter page above should anyone have a big interest in me as it is evident that PM obviously seems intrigued, but incapable of stating facts. Strange that it was even brought up here on this page. It is as if she is so insecure about her position that she attempts to sway other editors by attempting to paint individual editors with lies. This is highly inappropriate activity. --Rider 00:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

By this rather loose definition of canvassing PM would also belong on this list as well as he was invited by . Also Catholic Church would be a logical place for editors to come from as most involved in the year-long dispute are quite familiar with this guideline. I discredit this as an attempt by M and PM to silence opposition and as a diversion from the topic to another attack on Xandar. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:00, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The difference being that Knepferle asked one editor, and - more importantly - phrased his request neutrally; I was free to come here and tell him that the errors were his - as I have in other cases. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, SR and Kraftlos. The great irony is that the editors now engaging in slander in this subsection are the same editors that created this subsection and asked that it be limited to poll comments, with no discussion. Now that they see they don't have the support they want, they find it necessary to essentially attack those that disagree with them by implying their opinions shouldn't be weighted equally because they may or may not have been contacted by someone they think was canvassing. It's really ridiculous, and demonstrates a level of desperation. They may try and couch it with language so they can say "We didn't say there was anything wrong...we're just pointing someone out and asking people to draw their own conclusions." As you point out, SR, their silly comments aren't even accurate, and are nothing but sad attempts to save their drive to make radical changes. I could just as easily have started another list of certain editors that seem to have started this drive after loosing an argument on another page... lose an argument to consensus based on WP policy, so let's change the policy. I didn't stoop that low. This silly scarlet letter list should be deleted. --anietor (talk) 01:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Nobody is blaming you for having an opinion. The problem is, some people with a very particular type of opinion were invited to this discussion. We want to maintain an even distribution of interested people - if 90% of WiP opposes, the random arrival of editors should present similar results. However, if a bunch of people are explicitly invited, this makes the tally not really representative of the real WiP consensus. Unless you all want to suggest that Xandar's canvasing of all editors taking his side of the dispute (and none taking the opposing side) is somehow proper, we should probably stop this discussion before it grows beyond the 1000 words already here. Thanks. M 01:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to remind you that this a preliminary straw poll so we can generate a proper proposal for RfC. This isn't a vote. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:41, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

We don't have votes. If this were all a discussion, and Xandar canvassed, we'd have the same problem. M 02:09, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I didn't suggest that there are ever votes on wikipedia. I was just reminding you that numbers really aren't at issue here, its the strength of the argument. And also that there will be no legitmate change to the guideline without an RfC. I don't understand why we need to continue pointing fingers. Stay on topic. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 02:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

More discussion

It is not appropriate to label users, who have posted on this and similar issues, as "canvassed" users. To begin with, M is the editor that put the "Do not add discussion" comment above, and it's ironic that he would insert material that he purports to want to keep out... comments that go beyond the straw poll. IF someone is canvassing, then address the person doing the canvassing. You don't blame people that GET a crank call, you blame the person making it. Stop trying to put a scarlet letter on editors that you happen to disagree with. That's ridiculous. There's a difference between friendly notices and WP:canvassing. And even if it is canvassing, there's an appropriate way to deal with it. This isn't it. --anietor (talk) 19:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

There is a strict definition of what 'canvassed' means. You, too, have been canvassed. If you would like to show that they were involved in this (not merely related) discussion, you can remove the tag. Canvassing is disruptive, and if participants in a straw poll have been canvassed this needs to be noted to prevent votestacking. Note, please, that I did not add the notices myself (I think you've applied both autosignings incorrectly), but that I agree with them entirely. The notices are not discussion, there is nothing dispute-related to discuss. They are information, and directly relevant to the poll. The notices are not 'friendly' - those notified do not work on policy, but they do work on a very specific alleged application of this guideline - the Catholic Church article. M 20:21, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I actually agree that this area should be clear of clutter. If you want to delete my above comment, AND the silly canvassing tags, go ahead. But if the tags stay, my comment addresses them and should remain here. --anietor (talk) 20:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
- I'll see what our policies say about where such tags should be, give me a moment. M 20:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you aware of this section ever having been "used" for anything? Do you in fact know anything about it except what was written in the canvassing message on your talk page?--Kotniski (talk) 12:09, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, if the names of self-identifying entities from the present are considered, then so should the names of self-identifying entities from the past be considered (at least, if their self-identifying name is still part of common usage) since the fact that they are not in the present, does not mean they can't be considered self-identifying entities, we still have documents today which show their self-identification. Cody7777777 (talk) 10:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Certainly; to do otherwise is presentism. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:39, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I disagree completely that this is presentism. Misplaced Pages has always treated living persons differently than dead people. This policy compliments WP:BLP --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I quite agree with a lot of that, but can't share your conclusion about Burma: surely Burma is very substantially more common than Myanmar, far more likely to be recognized by our readers (remember them?), and thus easily the right name for the article. Same with China.--Kotniski (talk) 10:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Myanmar may be a regional thing, Kotniski. I hear Brits all the time talking about how Burma is so much more common than Myanmar, but in the US, that's not the case (I've pretty much never seen a news report or geographical organization use any name but Myanmar in many years). Heimstern Läufer (talk) 13:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I doubt that, and American is my native language. Official statements use Myanmar, for various reasons - and news reports quote them; but that is the only context in which Myanmar is at all prevalent. I suppose reporters in Rangoon, needing to defend themselves from their sources, form another pool of usage; but that doesn't happen that often. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Never once seen a news report in the US use the name Burma, but either way, we're on a tangent now. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 14:24, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

See this report from yesterday's Washington Post; but I agree this is tangential. Your position appears to be that self-identification should have some weight in deciding among common names; I have no objection to saying so, but suspect there is a wide disagreement on how much weight. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:29, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

- Does anyone other than Xandar support that position? I haven't seen anybody do so. Let's find out. (And one other position, which I hope we can agree on; I will offer the logical alternatives) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
  - Since there are only about four of us here, and this has been up only a few hours, it is a mite too early to 6tart saying only one person supports any position. Xandar 00:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
    - Disingenuous. This conversation has been going on for days, and Xandar claimed that Charles Edward Stuart wasn't "REAL" long ago. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
      - FYI, there are several of us that support the position that Xandar is supporting. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
        Yes, I agree with Xandar's position as well as the multitude of editors who agreed to this policy in the first place that is now being reconsidered by a few people whose only purpose here is to revert a mediated result regarding the name of one article. NancyHeise 01:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
        Canvassed by Xandar; an impressive 64% of article space edits are on Catholic Church

It really is breathtaking that someone who is involved in that Catholic Church discussion (click on her contributions) is accusing others (who have no interest in it) of being motivated by a desire to influence that discussion.--Kotniski (talk) 09:37, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Is she referring to Catholic church? Like I said, changing this policy would have no bearing on the CC article because CC is both the common name and the self-identifying names. But we have several potentially heated debates that could arise in other articles where the article is not titled at the common name that we can avoid if we leave the policy as it is. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 09:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that this should have no bearing on the CC article (though it's weird that one side of the debate consists almost exclusively of people with an interest in that article), and I also agree that we should leave the policy as it is - the policy being written at WP:NC and making no reference to self-identifying names. That being the case, we should alter the wording of this page (which was a backwater before this debate broke out) in a way that is consistent with that policy.--Kotniski (talk) 09:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

A little disingenious, Kotniski, since at least three people on your side of this debate have strong interests in the "Catholic Church" argument. It is also disingenious to say that making the reversal you want, would not change policy. This naming convention is an integral part of the naming policy, and deferred to by the main policy page and even the NPOV policy page. The "contradiction" appears to be in the mind of some of those who want to reverse this policy. In fact similar principles to this page are also expressed elsewhere. Xandar 11:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

It's disingenUous; but more to the point, it's referred to (in passing), not deferred to. Neither policy gives this backwater of a page any precedence.--Kotniski (talk) 12:23, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Please stop correcting people, this is a talk page not an article. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 05:11, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

You miss the point; referred vs. deferred is an issue of substance; he's claiming they defer, whereas examination will show that they merely refer.--Kotniski (talk) 07:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Both WP:NPOV and WP:Naming conventions, direct readers here to determine how to resolve problems developed under those policies. Kotniski seems to think than when the editors of those central pages did that, they didn't bother to read the very stable content of this guideline, including the long section on self-identifying names. The fact that this naming convention's guidance is so directed to, of itself disproves the allegation that this convention somehow contradicts those policies. The whole argument for sudden radical change to this convention is based on nonsense. Xandar 20:34, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The self-identifying names of entities which are not living or extant should normally be given far less priority over common names.

I think this is quite obvious. You cannot self-identify if you don't exist. Only living/extant entities normally need protection under the policy from having a name that they find incorrect or offensive being used to identify them. This is how the policy has worked in practice. In most cases long use of a self-identifying name makes it a common name, so PManderson's Muhammad Ali problem is unlikely to arise, and the other names raised by him above have become common names by usage. Instances like Byzantine Empire show that self-identifying names are not always used of historic entities, so this option ensures that the policy continues to coincide with the reality of WP practice. I add "normally" to the proposition since there are cases where close family might be effected by elements of the policy. Xandar 00:18, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

In that case it wouldnt revert because Muhammad Ali was the name he used when he became famous, he had some notoriety before, but Cassius Clay is much less common. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
"some notoriety before"!, The man had won both an Olympic gold and the world heavy weight title as CC, he was very famous as CC before he changed his name to MA. However be that as it may, I think you have you have totally misunderstood what I wrote -- I was taking a hypothetical position about what would happen today if a boxer called "Cassius Clay" changed his name ... . But see my previous comment at the bottom of the page for more on this. --PBS (talk) 01:28, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Alright, if you say so. This might not be a good example though, because MA is more common now than CC. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 09:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Self-identifying names are always those in common usage.

Self-identifying names are not very often those in common usage.

When common name conflicts with the preferred name of a living, self-identifying entity the common name should redirect or disambiguate to the self-preferred name.

To do otherwise would conflict with current Misplaced Pages naming conventions, and with good Misplaced Pages practice in articles where the common name like, for example Canadian Indians, or Untouchables is considered inaccurate or offensive by the entity concerned. Xandar 00:38, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

When common name conflicts with the preferred name of a living, self-identifying entity the common name should be the name of the article.

The opposing statement above adopts the Sympathetic Point of View, which is contrary to WP policy. Those who believe in the Sympathetic Point of View should edit Wikinfo, which was set up for those editors who prefer it. It is unsupported by the present text of this guideline - or any other. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Long-held consensus cannot be used as an excuse against a change that follows Misplaced Pages's policies.

This is a quote; it paraphrases policy and is expressly endorsed by as many Wikipedians as have taken part here. Let's see if anyone objects. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:45, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
Where did you get this quote? This makes sense within articles. There usually isn't a good reason to ignore policy, even if the editors there want to. However I think you are meaning the conflict between guidelines and policy. Again I would agree. I think this guideline, as it is written, is in line with the relevant policies WP:NPOV and WP:NCON. There isn't a conflict. I also happen to think that this long-held consensus, codified into this guideline, if changed, would reopen a good number of unnecessary naming debates. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 05:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
A unanimous finding of Arbcom, on the Macedonia case, which links to the policy it paraphrases. It was applied to at least one proposed guideline. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:23, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

How is there no conflict? This guideline says we should prefer one point of view (that of the group that believe they hae the right to use a name) over another. NPOV says we don't take any point of view. Even if you think there is no underlying conflict, the wording obviously needs to be improved to make it clear what our position is. Same with this page v. WP:NC - this page is being interpreted as meaning that we prefer self-identifying names over common names, while NC states the common name principle without mentioning self-identifying names. That there is a conflict (or at least, clear potential for contradictory interpretation) is surely obvious to everyone - hence this debate - what we need to settle is how to resolve it - what actually is WP's position on these matters. There's no point saying that this page takes precedence over the others because the others happen to contain links to this page; that's just dishonest.--Kotniski (talk) 07:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

There is no conflict in the same way that there is no conflict with any of the other exceptions to "Use the most common name" that litter the main policy and elsewhere. Exceptions DOES NOT EQUAL "conflict." Both WP:NPOV and WP:Naming conventions, direct readers here to determine how to resolve problems developed under those policies. Does Kotniski really think than when the editors of those pages did that, they didn't bother to read the very stable content of this guideline, including the long section on self-identifying names? The whole idea that they "conflict" is a nonsense, and dishonest at that. Large numbers of articles exist, which show that self-identifying names are used in preference to "Common names" across Misplaced Pages. This guidance exists to codify the very real situations where self-identifying names take precedence. You own your name, it identifies you. You have a right to change it. That, as this guidance says, is not POV. What is POV is allowing third parties to give an entity a name it finds offensive or inaccurate or both. Kotniski's proposal IS actually POV. Xandar 20:44, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

That just doesn't make sense. Consider: A belives that A should be called "X", B believes that A should be called "Y". Two points of view. So we report both of them if significant, but don't automatically adopt either of them. What we do to be as neutral as we can is use the name that English commonly uses (which in the vast majority of cases is "X" anyway), because that's (in principle) an objective fact.--Kotniski (talk) 11:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The point is that you can report both views, but you can only use ONE for the article title. Therefore, we need a clean method of choosing which one to use. We choose A believes A should be called X, because A has ownership of his own identity, B does not. The name B chooses for A may be offensive to A, and giving B control over A's identity is a step that can only be seen as heavily POV. It is a fact that A calls himself X. It is an opinion of B that A should be known as Y. Using the majority English name is not necessarily neutral since Anglophones may themselves be the ones imposing the "offensive" name - say, "Aborigine", or "American Indian", or "Untouchable." It may also be inaccurate, as in "British Navy" for "Royal Navy", or based on a disliked anglicisation of a local name, as in Calcutta for "Kolkata". Or based on a historic preference for one side in an ethnic dispute, like "Bressanone" for "Brixen". Using the self-identifying name, objectively determined, solves these problems. Xandar 01:19, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Dicussion

Which section is poorly written? SlimVirgin 00:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The whole paragraph is less than ideal (for instance, there should be a comma after person, and the first sentence repeats itself), but the sentence These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity manages to be vague, irrelevant (to the topic at hand) and controversial, all at the same time. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:37, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

You are assuming that this section does not intend to mean that preferred names take precedence over common name. I think in current practice and as currently worded the entire section does say this. What I would suggest instead of taking part of the section and disputing it, would be to perhaps re-write the section to reflect your common-name position OR we can simply go with a question like "Should the title of an article regarding a self-identifying entity reflect the common name or their preferred name?". We're really talking about two different approaches to avoid taking on a particular POV, it's not a clear-cut case of a simple contradiction or error. These are two different and valid approaches that need to be discussed in a more philosophical and practical sense. So~as a start I would suggest looking at the sentences that these examples support rather than the examples themselves. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what the intention was; that's one of the signs of bad writing. I observe that it does not say that self-identifying names are to be used, but that their importance is to be considered. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Btw, it's not my common-name position; it's policy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

That's somewhat better. I think everyone agrees that some re-writing needs to be done, but there's the underlying issue of how to handle self-identifying entities that needs to be resolved before someone considers re-writing. I have to agree with Xandar's point about RfC, that it really needs to be a draft proposal of explicit changes that will be made to the article. I think a well-worded question might also be acceptable though, one RfC too gauge opinion about the guideline, then another if changes need to be made. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 04:37, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I very strongly disagree; the purpose, probably only valid purpose, of an RfC, is to help draft such changes, by seeing what, if anything, the wide pool attracted by an RfC agrees on. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:05, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I think you've misunderstood what I said. I think we're saying the same thing. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 09:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Although, I am not really insisting for changes, I agree that those policies guidelines may need some revision. If changes are done, I think we should emphasize somehow the following part of WP:NPOV "encyclopedic article titles are expected to exhibit the highest degree of neutrality.", so in my opinion, when choosing an article name in a naming conflict (especially when dealing with controversial names), I believe we should usually try to choose the one which is the most neutral and less controversial/disputed/offensive name, which is also in common usage and is also part of self-identifying usage (at least, if there are less controversial alternative self-identifying names), not necessarily the most preferred self-identifying name or the most common name. So, if an organization has more self-identifying names, and the most preferred self-identifying name is controversial, I think it is clear enough that the less controversial/disputed self-identifying name should be chosen. We should avoid choosing a controversial name (without any disambiguation) which is claimed by multiple organizations (or which has some other important meanings) only for one organization (that would be subjective criteria). In my opinion, a controversial self-identifying or common name could also be made into a more neutral article title by adding a disambiguation with a description in parentheses to it. If there is no naming conflict, in my opinion, the most common unambiguous name should usually be chosen. Cody7777777 (talk) 10:57, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Cody's proposal would completely reverse current guidance, and be unworkable in my opinion. Changing names because of third parties claiming to be offended by them would reverse the Republic of Macedonia solution, for example and mean that anyone could claim to take offence at a chosen name like Muhammed Ali and insist that another name of their choice be used by Misplaced Pages instead! Cody's proposals would also disrupt the Primary Topic guideline which gives the name of a place like London England, which is the primary meaning for most people, (although there are other Londons), the clear simple name, without going through disambiguating terms. Cody appears to be starting from the solution he wants to his particular bee-in-the-bonnet naming dispute and designing a policy to give him what he wants on that issue - which is not a good way to work IMO. Xandar 14:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the name of the city London is a controversial topic. (Regarding the Republic of Macedonia it should also be noted that there still aren't any other self-identifying entities, as far as as I know, calling themselves as the Republic of Macedonia, and they also refer to themselves simply as Macedonia which is a disambiguation page.) Cody7777777 (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

We should not adopt names because they are inoffensive; agreed. This undermines the self-pitying arguments for self-identifying names.

The reasoning for the Republic of Macedonia can be found at WP:MOSMAC2. It involves none of the considerations Cody mentions; in fact, consensus dismissed the usage of international organizations, except as a fact about those organizations.

It doesn't involve the self-identification of the Republic either; we use Republic of Macedonia on the grounds (discussed as a question of fact) that

the common name is Macedonia,

this is ambiguous

there is no primary usage; the Republic is probably the most common referent, but not to the degree which WP:PRIMARYUSAGE requires.

We use London for the city in England, not the one in Ontario, because of common usage; see WP:NCGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:17, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not true. Self-identification of the name Republic of Macedonia is mentioned in MOSMAC2 itself, and the justification and rationale for the adopted proposal at specifically states: "Where disambiguation is practically needed (to be determined by common sense on a case-by-case basis), "Republic of..." is the simplest disambiguating qualifier that is easily understood, clearly establishes the referent (only independent countries are typically referred to as "Republic of..."), and is compatible with both sets of criteria in WP:NCON: common English use, and preference for self-identifying names." Self-identifying names policy was therefore an essential part of this solution, contrary to the claims of those who want that policy reversed now.

Self-identifying names policy is germane to the titles of a considerable number of articles on Misplaced Pages, for one example Indian Dalits over the Common name Untouchables. The policy has also worked very well in ending disputes. So far no good reason has been given for reversing this policy other than the desire of certain persons to shift the goalposts in certain specific naming disputes - a very poor reason for altering successful policy. In fact not one single occasion where the existing policy has caused a problem has been brought forward, despite repeated requests. Xandar 00:02, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the name Dalit is also not a controversial topic. (I assume it doesn't also have other important meanings.) And as far as I see, the name Untouchables clearly has more subjective POV and negative connotations than Dalits. (And Untouchables is actually a disambiguation page, showing the other meanings of the term.) Cody7777777 (talk) 09:17, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar is disingenuous, again. That a name is a self-identifying name is a minor good, and one often obtained from following usage. But the decision itself WP:MOSMAC2#Other articles: Republic of Macedonia is to be used where the formal name of other countries is used and where it is needed for disambiguation but not where Macedonia is unambiguous. It does not appeal to self-identification, even if one author did. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

More than one author used self-identifying names as a principle, and reference to it appears on MOSMAC2. this pretence that the principle doesn't exist is wearing very thin. Xandar 01:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

And how does that apply to the Dalit people? This is a name virtually unknown in the USA, but the title is Dalit? Disingenuous is not answering questions properly posed and then acting as if you are right and the other party is wrong. --Rider 01:05, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

It may be better known in Indian English, although I would expect Harijan to be more common, even there - and the article suggests it is; alternatively, it may be better known in anthropology. If neither is true, we should not be using it; we are not here to mystify our readership. This is WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS; if some people have violated neutrality, that is no reason for guidance to violate it wholesale. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

To me the simple correction would be to use Dalit, as it is currently being done. The error is when one types Untouchables it is not linked to Dalit, but a disambiguation page that still does not easily lead the reader to the topic of she seeks. This is unfortunately a poor example in that it is not currently in an excellent state. However, when the links are done, not only would a reader find their topic, but more importantly (s)he would learn that the proper name for untouchables is the Dalit people.

You bring up another point, which English should we use as the basis of making decisions? Is it the Queen's English, American English, Indian English, etc. In this example of Dalit, US readers are almost entirely at a loss, but this loss is quickly corrected IF we use the name of choice. Using the name of choice of a given group is just so logical, respectful, and proper to me that I fail to grasp the motivation for changing this long-standing policy. Have I missed examples where we really should ignore the name of choice for a group? Usually names of choice quicly become the common name and mulitple names are/can be discussed in the respective article.

BTW, can someone with the expertise, correct the link so that Untouchables links to Dalit? It would make that article easier to find. --Rider 09:55, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

We have a (exceptionally widely cited) guideline on that: if we can find an international form, well and good; if not, we should use Indian English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:04, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

That is a logical fallacy to your position. The common term for the world is Untouchables. I don't think I will explain it to you, but just note it. --Rider 15:33, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

StormRider is correct. The excuse for wanting to remove the naming convention in this guideline is that it allegedly conflicts with the Use Common Names policy. (Even though no one has yet produced a single incident where this has caused a real problem). However ENGVAR "conflicts" in exactly the same manner with "Use common names". So logically, since the supposed "conflict" is the excuse here, ENGVAR should be removed too, along with all other exceptions to "Use Common names" no matter how useful. The simple fact is that "Use Common Names" has plenty of exceptions, documented in the various naming conventions, of which this is one. PMANderson comes up with lots of reasons for exceptions to his iron rule when it suits him, which fatally weakens his argument. (As an aside, ENGVAR primarily refers to grammatical usage rather than naming.) Xandar 01:20, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I moved some of the discussion down. The above is meant for us to 'endorse' key positions. Some of the added points are not positions, but rather arguments for the positions, which may themselves be supported or not - but let's avoid mixing these and making it difficult to answer the question "just who exactly supports this?" Please feel free to redact or comment out a position if you want to expand on it a bit, but avoid arguing up there. M 21:55, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Please don't remove positions because nobody has signed on to them after a couple of hours. One reason to post positions is to give people some time to sign on; if there is silence after a few days, they can be struck - but finding what nobody will support is one of the most useful aspects of this exercise. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:41, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

To expand a little on my comment above: As Misplaced Pages is reactive and not proactive if a boxer called "Cassius Clay" today decided to call himself "Muhammad Ali" it would not be up to Misplaced Pages to alter the name its article from "Cassius Clay" to "Muhammad Ali" until the majority of reliable sources started to do so. However I can see an argument for stating that in such cases, that "modern reliable sources" should be given more weighting than "old reliable sources". Supposing we were writing an article in 2000 on Prince (musician) as reliable sources tended not to use but used "Artist formerly known as Prince" that is probably the name we would have used for an article. The question is when he changed his name back to Prince in 2001 how soon should Wikipeia have followed the trend in reliable sources to go back to the name Prince? Giving weighting to recently published articles, might be seen as desirable. --PBS (talk) 00:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I think some of the editors commenting here need to be much clearer on their use of policy and guideline, (see WP:Policies and guidelines for the difference between the two). This is a guideline and not a policy and as such its wording should not contradict policy. --PBS (talk) 00:43, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The Cassius Clay example is one reason why the guidance (not "policy" if people want to nitpick) on self-identifying names is needed. I can imagine that if that happened now and his article on Misplaced Pages read Cassius Clay, when he had made it known that this name was now extremely offensive to him, that he would be doing some pretty heavy edit-warring - if not something more strenuous. PBS tries to wriggle out of this conundrum by proposing using "modern reliable sources" (undefined). But what are these? - and how many of these printed newspapers, journals, yearbooks, encyclopedias etc. would have to change their view, and over what time period, before Misplaced Pages could escape from the yoke of "Common name" which PBS and others would saddle us with - and reflect reality? PBS and PMAnderson also do not respond to the Untouchables/Dalits example - one of many, that would mean Misplaced Pages would have a policy of willfully insulting and denigrating tens of millions of people? Xandar 01:54, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

What would be most likely to happen if a boxer took an Islamic name is what did happen with Muhammad Ali. It would take a while to be adopted, but it would then be English usage - and intelligible to our readers, and we would use it as such. Where we have not adopted such names (as with Prince (musician)), there's usually a good reason why English has not - that his sigil is not memorable to the majority of English-speakers, not pronounceable by anybody, and is unlikely to render correctly on most computers. If we used it, except as an illustration, it would render as a little square box. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:31, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

@PBS Please don't nitpick. I highly doubt anyone is confused as to the distinction between the two. It should only be an issue of one is trying to play a guideline over a policy, not just when someone slips up and uses the wrong word. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 09:51, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

It should only be an issue of one is trying to play a guideline over a policy Quite right; and Xandar has been consistently attempting to play this paragraph (in his -er- doubtful reading) over WP:NPOV, on the grounds that WP:NAME mentions it. But as long as the rest of us are clear that this is - at best - a guideline, we can continue. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:48, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I was actually very clear in stating that this section is not being played against a policy because it isn't in conflict with the NPOV or NAME. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib)

<-- Back to my comment on modern sources. I am not trying to wriggle out of anything. This is not an unusual position to take, when reliable sources start to use a new name we very much take that into account when deciding which is the correct name to use -- if not we would still be using Peking and not Beijing. I have not tried to define what is meant by modern (reliable) sources because it depends on the entity under discussion. For example if it is a renaming of a genus, then clearly it is over a period in which the usage in the scientific literature changes, but if it is the name of a pop band it would be the usage in the music and popular press. Usually the latter would usually change more quickly than the former. Wording that indicated that the name in reliable sources can change, would help to meet the requirements of cases like "Prince", and "Muhammad Ali". Misplaced Pages does not have a policy of deliberately insulting anyone, we have a policy of "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." We follow the lead of reliable sources, and this guideline must comply with the policy (or it will be ignored). By integrating a suggestion that where the name has changed, the uses in modern reliable sources -- for example "the usage in reliable sources after the announcement of a change of name by a self-identifying entity", would perhaps be a way forward, as it would in my opinion be compatible with the naming convention policy. --PBS (talk) 18:40, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

By integrating a suggestion that where the name has changed, the uses in modern reliable sources -- for example "the usage in reliable sources after the announcement of a change of name by a self-identifying entity", would perhaps be a way forward. Yes it would; this is a part of our commitment to current usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:29, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

PBS. What you are attempting to do is to remove a simple, effective, and elegant way of dealing with certain problems and disputes, and then trying to add in new and far more complicated ways to solve the problems that removal would produce. This is not an improvement of the guidance. And the "recent name-change" scenario is just one of many such problems. Instead of simply saying "Use the self-identifying name of the entity", we would have to A) pre-define groups of entities that would be subject to a different rule of determining the Common Name. B) For those entities, define a range of "recent reliable sources", which would be checked in the months/years following an announced change of name, newspapers, magazines, yearbooks, (which ones?/how many?/limited to certain countries?/at what point do we poll?) C) Devise a methodology for polling these sources. Even then, there would still be a time-lag of six months to two years before most name-changes aqcuired a majority in recent sources. With some, such as Canton or Calcutta, much longer periods would elapse. The proposed process is just so much worse than what you are saying we should remove, and it still doesn't solve the problems raised by pages like British Navy, Dalits, Canadian Indians, Romany etc. etc. Xandar 01:42, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The wording of this guideline must be compatible with policy. Usually we use the common name as found in reliable English language sources for the name of our articles, but names do change and it is necessary to alter the name to most easily recognized name, and to do that we put more weight on the name in currently published encyclopaedias rather than ones no longer being published no matter how august the original encyclopaedia was. I am not sure what your objection is as it is usually quite easy to assess if a new name is in common use. The complications you are raising are the same ones as we always face when there is more than one name used in reliable sources, I am merely suggesting a simple rule that we use all the time. As it happens one of the examples you give above Romany was moved from Roma people to Romani people (instead of Romany people) using exactly this consideration, see Talk:Romani people/Archive 8.

user:Xandar, As to your argument about how long and what is the cut off, I would suggest that as a simple rule of thumb if there is not a clear majority in the recent reliable sources then we sticks with the older name until such time as there is a clear majority for a change of name, the more frequently an entity is mentioned in reliable sources, the sooner the change of name of a Misplaced Pages article can be changed.

Also user:Xandar, I am confused as to why you think that Misplaced Pages should not be guided by what the majority of reliable sources use. Surly we are only talking about using the self-identifying name of the entity if it is not clear what the name is in the majority of reliable English language sources, in which case some weighting can be given to the name used by the self-identifying entity. --PBS (talk) 20:48, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The wording of this guideline is compatible with policy. The editors who wrote the policy explicitly linked to this guideline to explain how that policy should be put into practice. The idea that they didn't read this naming convention before they did so is an astonishing one!

The trouble with your ideas, PBS, is that they introduce a timewarp between an entity announcing its new name and a majority of certain printed sources recognising and acknowledging that. There is no purpose to this. It is more complicated and far less reactive. One of the benefits of Misplaced Pages being that it is up to the moment.

The problem that the makers of this convention saw with relying solely on "the common name in reliable sources" as I see it, are the cases where this majority of sources "chooses" a name that the entity finds wrong, misleading or offensive. Canadian Indians for example. Most sources will continue to call the North American native populations "Indians" simply because it is such common usage - even though the name has nothing to do with the people themselves, who call thmselves Native Americans or the First Nations. Misplaced Pages however, because of redirects, can and should use the names these groups self-identify by. Coptic Church is an example from another sphere. It is used in many sources, and probably will continue to be. However it is not the name that the church, and its members, use. It is not just "the Church of some odd people called Copts", but an ancient Orthodox Patriarchate. Xandar 02:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

You give a lot of credit for perfect and sound writing to the original writers. They aren't really perfect, so a lack of clarity is unsurprising. It seems pretty clear, though, that the guideline is meant to resolve conflicts that can't be resolved using the common names principle. As for your points, I don't quite follow. Should we apply the policy you propose to all articles, and refer to janitors as custodial engineers? (Or pick some other example of political correctness.) You do understand that this applies to more than just the Catholic Church article, don't you? M 03:06, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Please stop bringing up Catholic Church, everbody understands the scope of this policy. That's why we're having this discussion. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 03:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

What's the problem with bringing it up? A huge proportion of the editors opposing are involved in that article. Given that I just asked if this was really understood, after providing some reasons for my having doubts, your response seems out of place. M 03:33, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

You guys keep saying stuff like "Editor A's last contributions were at Catholic church, isn't that funny that we have so many editors from Catholic church here". Don't presume motivations for other people, you don't really know what people's motivations are. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Especially when a majority of those, pushing so hard for these changes with M have either entered into the dispute on Catholic Church naming or expressed a strong view here or elsewhere on that dispute. Xandar 13:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

<--"The wording of this guideline is compatible with policy." Well not necessarily, it is not uncommon for people to add things to guidelines which are not compatible with the policy. Such differences may not become apparent until the parties to an article naming dispute highlights the difference between the policy and guideline. Also we did not add "reliable sources" to the policy until last year, which meant that many guidelines had work-arounds in them, because the common name is not necessarily the name used in reliable sources (eg Bloody Mary) and just using the most common name as found in all sources frequently differed from the name in reliable soruces. The addition of "Misplaced Pages determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject." (Use the most easily recognized name) has made a lot of the wording in many of the naming conventions guidelines redundant. -- PBS (talk) 14:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

That is just an opinion. There is no evidence that using "Reliable sources" solves the problem of names being thrown up that conflict with an entity's self-identification. We've already discussed the delay with name-changes because reliable sources take time to catch up. And there are areas where "reliable sources" simply do not solve the problem. Untouchables, American Indians, Australian Aborigines, British Navy, Calcutta - are all cases in point. The naming principles of self-identification have been used in Misplaced Pages to solve the Gdansk -Danzig disputes, and to provide a basis for the naming of articles about towns in disputed areas of Europe such as South Tyrol-ALto Adige, where relying on "Reliable sources" would leave us in a mess. The self-identification rule is a useful tool. Xandar 01:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

A few questions, which I hope will receive some terse (short, re-checked, not long) responses. To be neutral, we rely on descriptiveness and choose the most common name. So,

Do we use reliable sources, or popular usage? Some have implied that we should favor academic usage - I'm unsure about this. While we need reliable sources on how common naming is, there seems no reason to prefer commonality in academia over commonality overall.
Do we use the common name used, or the name something commonly 'should' be called? For example, while most people may use the word Gypsy, presumably most actually think that Romani people should be used instead. This is harder to judge, though.

Thoughts? Positions? M 21:10, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I favor reliable sources for all things. Popular usage is impossible to verify without using them.

The argument between use of the common name versus the desired name is well demonstrated in these types of examples such as Gypsy or Romani. For me, there is no question that the title of the article is Romani and when people type in Gypsy that are automatically linked to the Romani page. This is where Misplaced Pages aids the ignorant and provides an occasion to learn proper names. --Rider 23:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

We don't prescribe "proper" names, so as to enlighten the ignorant. If I'm reading you right, your position is against one of our oldest and most uncontested content policies - our articles are descriptive, not prescriptive. What I'm wondering is if our titles should reflect what others, especially reliable others, prescribe. M 01:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I also favor reliable sources per WP:V. I don't think either position would involve throwing out the use of reliable sources or even independent sources. It has also be demonstrated that in MOST cases the common name and the self-selected name are one in the same. However in the case of the conflicts between self-identifying terms and common name, we really need a rule to decide tough cases. That rule for the last couple years has been to choose the self-selecting name, and I'm still not aware of any cases that this has been a problem. If you apply the rule consistently its not taking sides as it would apply to all groups. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 00:51, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

That rule for the last couple years has been to choose the self-selecting name Examples, please, aside from the recent and still controversial move; I have seen no moves though WP:RM which fulfill both conditions: that an article was moved to the self-identifying name, against usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Lots of example have already been given, I'm not a regular at RM so I really don't know what they do there. I guess they entirely ignore this guideline? --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:45, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

No, they use the rest of it, and ignore this paragraph. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:30, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

What I'm wondering, with the first point, is suppose we get two perfectly reliable sources. One says "90% of people use the word Gypsies to refer to the Romani people", and the other says "90% of reputable sources use the term 'Romani people'". Which one do we choose? M 01:26, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

This guideline gives a number of tools to determine which is more common. This is also why it is much preferable to simply call the group by what they call themselves. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 10:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Format

Would you please stop using "*" when entering your edits. Just use the same ":" that every other editor uses to designate the succeeding edit. This discussion page is a mess and I haven't a clue why this novel approach is being used by editors that have been around for so long. I tried to do some formating earlier, but I feel like I am stepping on toes by manipulating your edits. Would one of you that have been active please try to format the sections so that everyone else can easily read what is going on?--Rider 06:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

If you will stop attempting to create a private bubble of reality for your favorite articles to swim in, you need not be concerned with the tastes in formating of the rest of us.
The use of asterisks makes clear when one is making several points in response to a single post, as now; it's quite common among editors who actually converse with a large proportion of Misplaced Pages, and formatting is not difficult; if the post you're replying to uses **:*:, add a : or * on to the right end (**:*:: or **:*:*), and it will work fine.
The uncivil effort to dictate the format of discussion appears to be more common among isolated editors; it is most undesirable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:06, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Septic, that is almost funny, but fails miserably. The standard, you know, how every other editor formats on Misplaced Pages, as in policy for formating discussion is to simply use a ":". The asterisk is used in articles to denote points of interest. When used on a discussion page it results in a feeble attempt to aggrandize your position (that is the funny part). It was a request for uniformity in editing, nothing more.

You have an odd definition of uncivil. It appears that it comes up when you are caught doing something you know you shouldn't being doing and then throw a petty tantrum that any other editor has the temerity to point it out. Our small children act that way, but quickly grew up; I can only hope for the same in your rather pitiful condition. Here's to hope. --Rider 15:30, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The standard, how every other editor formats on Misplaced Pages, as in policy for formating discussion is to simply use a ":". I see; Storm Rider is either unaware that other editors do things differently - or feels free to invent facts. If SR had even read through this talk page, this edit, not far from the top, would have refuted this nonsense; so would many other talk pages. If I do not respond to SR's points in future, this is why. Nor am I inclined to do favors for those who are opposed to fundamental policy, and seek a private bubble in which each institution can bask in its own sacred point of view. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Septentrionalis, you'll notice that I'm for the same position as you, but even I find your edits disruptive. Adding arguments and discussion to the above, and then restoring them, seriously screws up anyone's ability to make out the positions. You've added 5 or so personal ones. Please, just stick to conventions to make things easier. I'll be simply deleting any discussion, or positions not backed by 2 or more people, in the above section. Don't exploit attempts to bring order by pushing your own position. M 23:57, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

M, thank you. I felt I was simply making a request that would aid all editors in following the discussion and the result is accusations and stupidity. Why is this so hard? --Rider 15:49, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

It's difficult because it's frustrating when the opposition acts with serious bias and in very bad faith. For the record, my position is that Xandar's actions here are greatly more disruptive - in reverting all work done to reach a compromise when things stopped going his way, in clear violations of our WP:CANVAS policy through campaigning and votestacking, and through hostile and personal forms of argument. M 19:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

M, I have had interaction with Xander for some time; at times we conflict, but most times we do not. It is best said that we respect each other's opinion. It is subjective to say one is better than the other. I would fall on the other side in that I see the other editor being more of a hindrance to compromise than Xander. There is no need for such pettiness. Honestly, I don't have the time for this type of quibbling. If there is a disagreement, provide a clear proposal. It is clear that this language has directed editors for some time. It is not productive to propose to just eliminate it. Seeing that this is obvious, what is the next best thing?

I am not a Catholic and never have been. It is very disturbing to the timing of this conflict given what is happening on the Catholic Church article. I don't believe in coincidences of this type. Frankly, it reeks of political chicanery. If you can't achieve your objective by using the rules, change the rules. I reject the effort in its entirety. --Rider 19:50, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

M. You have tried to misrepresent my position on the Consensus policy talk page, and now you are doing it here. I think it is YOUR sudden unexplained change of position on the issue of self-identifying names, and your blatant misrepresentations of what has happened here that is very suspicious and reeks of very bad faith. I and others were trying to work out a consensus here on your and the proposers original declared aim of trimming and shortening the guidance while leaving its principles unchanged. I thought we were achieving progress through give and take. However mid-way through this process some editors decided to alter the naming convention unilaterally and radically in such a manner as to totally reverse the policy, leaving misleading edit summaries. At the same time they moved the discussion from this page to the Misplaced Pages:Naming Conventions talk page without informing me or the other editors opposed to their changes. This is not only forum shopping, but dishonest forum shopping, by taking only supporters of their changes to the new forum. At the same time PMAnderson and others took the half-developed compromise version and started criticising it in favour of their entirely reversed version. This extreme bad faith is why the long-standing full consensus version of the guidance had to be restored, and why I informed people of the new venue and what had happened. PMA also insisted on edit-warring to place his non-consensus version of the guidance on the page, until the page was locked to prevent that. Throughout this, M, you have said nothing to prevent or condemn any of these improper actions - and you have associated yourself with them by that and by arguing against the position you took when negotiating the compromise. As StormRider says, all this is very suspicious, since no good reason has yet been produced for the sudden fanatical desire to reverse this long-standing and successful naming convention. Xandar 20:22, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't agree with your ideas that you are acting in good faith, and that others are to blame, especially given your noted COI, your obscene canvassing efforts, and how you're typing up pages (that frankly, I can't be bothered to read) in response to just about everything. It's clear that you're concerned that you'll no longer be able to use this incorrect wording to sway opinion at Catholic Church naming debates. I don't care, there are several thousand or million articles directly affected by your change, and I see this is more important. You need to take a break from this. M 20:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree entirely with Xandar's summary of events. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Then you admit misunderstanding our conduct policies, quoted below; and come very close to declaring yourself no longer an independent voice in this discussion. Please reconsider. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Compromise?

Most of this page is harmless; much of it useful. This obscure paragraph came to public attention when Xandar started quoting it, for results its mere text will not bear. (And WP:NAME links to all the naming convention pages; this doesn't make any of them more than a guideline.)
Appeal to a Project or a related Wikispace talk page is not canvassing; in fact, WP:Canvass approves of it: An editor who may wish to draw a wider range of informed, but uninvolved, editors to a discussion might place such neutrally-worded notices on the talk pages of a WikiProject, the Village pump, or perhaps some other talk pages directly related to the topic under discussion, while still only, or in lieu of, posting a limited number of friendly notices to individual editors.
However, there seems hope in the mention of uncompleted compromise. There was one here; if Xandar will indicate what he is talking about, perhaps we can combine the two. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:58, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really sure that's a compromise. But it would be really nice if we could go back to discussion the guideline without going into personal attacks. You might have been right a while back in considering mediation, though it would help if people would stay on topic. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 11:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The compromise position I was talking about was the period when M and others were only saying they wanted to shorten and clarify the Naming Convention, not reverse its meaning. The latter stage of that negotiation is reflected at this point - where a considerable shortening and tightening was being tried out, just before the attempt to completely reverse the guidance took place. Xandar 12:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

The trouble with that version is that, although its clarity is much improved, it actually did alter the meaning of the guidance quite dramatically, stating "Where any persons or groups (organizations, cities, political parties, fringe movements) have chosen to refer to themselves by a certain name, the titles of the articles that cover them should use that name, even if they do not have a right to use that name. Which is what some think the long-established version of the guidance is supposed to say, even though it doesn't.--Kotniski (talk) 13:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

It is fairly clear that that was not the consensus interpretation of the present vague language when it was written. ChrisO seems to have come up with this paragraph, on his own, in a single redraft of the page; and it was never discussed. But the oldest entries in the archive all speak of common name, sometimes "common name in context," as decisive. Indeed, this post declares that we must abide by common usage to the extent of not using the adjective Macedonian for the Republic of Macedonia; we can only use it for the inhabitants of ancient Macedon - except in a handful of limited cases where that would make no sense, like Macedonian dinar (Macedon did not coin dinars). Yet the author acknowledges that the "so-called RoM" does call itself Macedonia - as indeed it still does.

This archived section confirms the obvious: Maputo/Cabinda is talking about the Macedonian naming dispute. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:34, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

ChrisO was indeed the major contributor to the guideline, having altered the oprevious stub with material that he had developed and placed on the talk page. That 2005 version contained basically the same self-identified-entity convention as today. The other editors at the time seemed to have no problem with this, and the convention appears successful in resolving conflicts. Maputo/Cabinda is certainly compared with Macedonia/Greece, how far that gets us is unclear. Xandar 00:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

No doubt other editors ignored it; the only substance is that self-identifying names should be considered, backed up with vacuous hand-waving.
Since the Macedonia/Greece question has now been resolved, elsewhere and otherwise, the Cabinda parable is now at best redundant. If Schmucky ever gets around to explaining what general advice he sees in it, we can put that in instead; but a dark glass in which each can see what he likes is not good guidance. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

A parable can help in many situations. Xandar 01:57, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Our guidelines should not require faith to interpret. Nor, as far as I know, is ChrisO an agent of Revelation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:03, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Canvassing

Checking Xandar's contribs, I see that he has notified at least 11 editors of the poll, using language like "Those wishing to radically change the WP:Naming conflicts guidance" . All of the editors that I've checked are either involved with the Catholic Church or various religion pages, or have expressed some level of agreement above with Xandar's position. Most have been canvassed on not one, but two occasions. I'm aware that some of those canvassed don't agree that this was the case. It should be noted that at this time all of those voting with Xandar on the two issues have been canvassed. This sort of blatant votestacking is a blockable offence, and obviously an attempt to sway the direction of this poll. Further, Xandar has been warned on this same issue just 6 days ago. Is it reasonable to bring this to ANI, and request that Xandar be blocked to prevent further disruptions of this sort? M 02:05, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

M is clearly so worried about the fact that he is losing the argument with regard to his and his friends plan to radically alter this guideline by stealth, that he is now sinking to personal slurs, abuse and outright lies.

1 I have indeed informed some other editors with a legitimate interest, including past editors of this article, of developments in the discussion that has been going on here, and I have been informed of other developments myself. That has been absolutely justified under the need to involve concerned and interested parties in the discussions, (originally involving only two people), and particularly to respond to the blatant, improper and underhand edit-warring and WP:FORUMSHOPPING of many of the proponents of this radical reversal of policy.

2 TWICE, the discussion on this proposal has been moved without any notice being given to the participants on this side of this discussion, in an underhand and improper attempt to gain a false consensus without those people present. The first time - when the discussion was moved to the Naming Conventions page, with a misleading account of the issues ,I was fortunately informed by someone who chanced to see it. The second time, when debate was moved back here, again without notification to our side, I informed interested parties. That was perfectly proper.

3 The most recent notices I posted were when this poll for RfC was begun by M and his allies, and ONCE AGAIN it was entered into without any notification to previous participants in this debate. I posted notes on the talk pages of all of those participants who had not been contacted by the organisers of this poll, whatever their views.

4. Additionally it is quite proper to ask interested parties to come and comment, especially if only one or two people are proposing sweeping changes of widespread importance that can affect many interested wikiprojects. This is stated in WP:Consensus. People have been invited into this dispute on the other side too, such as PMAnderson by Knepferle. M himself, after alleging that he was only interested in shortening the guidance while maintaining its meaning, has now revealed that his true purpose was reversing the policy entirely. However instead of debating the points at issue, (he calls that sort of discussion too lengthy to bother reading), he has preferred to descend to underhand tactics, insults and slurs.

5. The disruptiveness, including changing the guidance radically without discussion or consensus, edit-warring, which led to the page being locked, forum-shopping, concealing the change of forum and intemperate abusive posting, has come from M and his allies in this dispute, not those who want to see this long-standing and useful guidance preserved. If anyone needs taking to ANI it is M and some of his allies. I notice that two of the most fervent advocates of reversing the meaning of this guideline received topic bans from Arbcom in June this year for unacceptable behaviour in disputes like this. Xandar 03:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit-warring is always something someone else does (I've lost count of the number of times I've seen X accuse Y of edit-warring when the only person warring against Y was X). Anyway, since there's an optimistically-titled thread "Compromise?" above, can I suggest we leave off the personal bickering at this point (maybe even archive all of this unproductive junk) and focus our minds back on the issues?--Kotniski (talk) 13:42, 27 August 2009 (UTC)